lspswr

Can you recommend some books, links, or resources that are
unschooling friendly for dealing with these rages? Some people
assume the child is acting out behavior modeled by parents, some are
happy to tell you the child needs more discipline and heavy-
handed "consequences," some are sure the child needs medication, some
think you're raising the next serial killer, some will tell you that
more religious teachings are needed, and some will assume that the
whole family is out of control and plain hopeless. What others think
is not what's important, of course, but it goes to my question about
how to handle raging children in a mindful unschooling-friendly way
(and yes, especially in public where the "public" seems to think they
need to give you their opinion).

> First of all, the child has learned the behavior from the parent and
> doesn't understand or have the tools to do much better at this
point.~~
>
> I need to clarify this statement I made...I was speaking directly to
> the parent that was having problems with her small children in the
> domestic violence situation.
> Some children DO have rages and hurtful behaviors without ever
seeing
> it around them...I have one of those children. I wasn't trying to
> generalize that rages/anger are always a learned thing, they aren't.
> But in that case it sounded like the abusive situation had led to
some
> pretty angry, volatile and insecure children at this time.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

Fetteroll

On May 21, 2007, at 2:33 PM, lspswr wrote:

> Can you recommend some books, links, or resources that are
> unschooling friendly for dealing with these rages?

One person's rage is another's angry frustration but if you mean rage
the way others have meant out of control, over the top response you
might want to check into allergies. If you search the archives of the
list, the topic has come up several times and there's quite a bit of
information.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly

I don't remember you stating what sex/age your child is - and I'm not able to get back to the email easily. So I'll just share:

1) I have three 15yo boys that live around me, one of which is mine. Each one began having rages around the ages of 10-12 and lasting until ages 13-15. With each of them, hormonal shifts were the initiating cause; but each case was exacerbated by situational difficulties such as a father not being present in the home, diagnosed psychological problems, or fighting parents.

I can see a boy going through these ages but having no situational circumstances but having extreme rages if he has never experienced a lot of anger, so he doesn't know what to do with it. Or there can even be secondary circumstances that are not clear.

Unfortunately, if hormones are the initial cause all you can do is keep on providing a good role model, talk calmly to him if you have to at all during one of those rages, and wait until he gets older. Also, if he destroys something during a rage, no one should fix it or clean it up but him. That's not punishment or coercion, it's life - you are responsible to clean up your own messes.


2) My 11yo daughter and I have difficulties with hypoglycemia. If we do not eat every 3-4 hours, the blood sugar drops WAY down and one of the symptoms of hypoglycemia is irritability - only with my daughter it shows as unreasonable displays of anger and rage. Even when she knows her blood sugar is low, she will, in a rage, refuse to eat anything that will help her (as in NOT candy), as well as throw things, scream and cry, etc.; she's totally unreasonable.

The solution here is reminding her to eat in a timely manner, and offering her something with a sugar, protein combination when she starts getting cranky. If she gets to the rage stage, we remove the audience by sending her to her room, or going where she's not present, and letting her get it out of her system. Eventually she knuckles under to what her body is trying to tell her and will get something to eat.

~~ When the first baby laughed for the first time,
the laugh broke into thousands of pieces
and they all went skipping about,
and that was the beginning of fairies ~ Peter Pan ~~
Check out my website at www.KellyLee.info and my favorite photos at www.KellyLee.info/photos
Yours Truly,
Kelly



____________________________________________________________________________________Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lspswr

> > Can you recommend some books, links, or resources that are
> > unschooling friendly for dealing with these rages?
>
> Here's a great one:
>
> http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/spirited.html<

Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly <bequiet65@...>

Also, if he destroys something
during a rage, no one should fix it or clean it up but him. That's not
punishment or coercion, it's life - you are responsible to clean up
your own
messes.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

One of my favorite Joycisms was when she had split milk on the floor;
her very young daughter, Kat, walked past and said, "You made that
mess, YOU clean it up." Only repeating what had been said to her.
Stopped Joyce in her tracks.

Doesn't sound so hot when it's directed at *you*.

-=-=-=-=-

2) My 11yo daughter and I have difficulties with hypoglycemia. If we
do not eat
every 3-4 hours, the blood sugar drops WAY down and one of the symptoms
of
hypoglycemia is irritability - only with my daughter it shows as
unreasonable
displays of anger and rage. Even when she knows her blood sugar is
low, she
will, in a rage, refuse to eat anything that will help her (as in NOT
candy), as
well as throw things, scream and cry, etc.; she's totally unreasonable.

-=-=-=-=-

She's as reaonable as she can be under the circumstances and with the
tools available to her at this time.

-=-=-=-=-

The solution here is reminding her to eat in a timely manner, and
offering her
something with a sugar, protein combination when she starts getting
cranky. If
she gets to the rage stage, we remove the audience by sending her to
her room,
or going where she's not present, and letting her get it out of her
system.
Eventually she knuckles under to what her body is trying to tell her
and will
get something to eat.

-=-=-=-=-

Abandonment is not the best way to help someone overcome personal
problems. As Deb said last week: *Help* helps.

"Knuckling under" is not the best way to describe learning to deal with
difficult issues. How about: "Listening* to what her body is trying to
tell her.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org



________________________________________________________________________
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Julie Hampton

This is soo true I had to do it with my raging 2 yr old- she makes the mess while mad she she has to clean it up. It has helped a lot
----- Original Message -----
From: kbcdlovejo@...<mailto:kbcdlovejo@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re:Raging kids without violent households


-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly <bequiet65@...<mailto:bequiet65@...>>

Also, if he destroys something
during a rage, no one should fix it or clean it up but him. That's not
punishment or coercion, it's life - you are responsible to clean up
your own
messes.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

One of my favorite Joycisms was when she had split milk on the floor;
her very young daughter, Kat, walked past and said, "You made that
mess, YOU clean it up." Only repeating what had been said to her.
Stopped Joyce in her tracks.

Doesn't sound so hot when it's directed at *you*.

-=-=-=-=-

2) My 11yo daughter and I have difficulties with hypoglycemia. If we
do not eat
every 3-4 hours, the blood sugar drops WAY down and one of the symptoms
of
hypoglycemia is irritability - only with my daughter it shows as
unreasonable
displays of anger and rage. Even when she knows her blood sugar is
low, she
will, in a rage, refuse to eat anything that will help her (as in NOT
candy), as
well as throw things, scream and cry, etc.; she's totally unreasonable.

-=-=-=-=-

She's as reaonable as she can be under the circumstances and with the
tools available to her at this time.

-=-=-=-=-

The solution here is reminding her to eat in a timely manner, and
offering her
something with a sugar, protein combination when she starts getting
cranky. If
she gets to the rage stage, we remove the audience by sending her to
her room,
or going where she's not present, and letting her get it out of her
system.
Eventually she knuckles under to what her body is trying to tell her
and will
get something to eat.

-=-=-=-=-

Abandonment is not the best way to help someone overcome personal
problems. As Deb said last week: *Help* helps.

"Knuckling under" is not the best way to describe learning to deal with
difficult issues. How about: "Listening* to what her body is trying to
tell her.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org<http://www.liveandlearnconference.org/>

__________________________________________________________
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from AOL at AOL.com.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eviecurley

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "lspswr" <lspswr@> wrote:
> >
> > Can you recommend some books, links, or resources that are
> > unschooling friendly for dealing with these rages?
>
> Here's a great one:
>
> http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/spirited.html


As a new unschooler I just wanted to say thanks to both the
questioner and responder in this post. My youngest son
is "spirited" and we have been struggling with how to deal with
these situations so reading Danielle's website really provided me
with some insight.

Also, thanks so much for asking the original question! This board
is an incredibly useful tool and I really appreciate all the info
here.

Thanks again,

Evie
www.whimsipage.blogspot.com

Su Penn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kelly <bequiet65@...>
>
> Also, if he destroys something
> during a rage, no one should fix it or clean it up but him. That's not
> punishment or coercion, it's life - you are responsible to clean up
> your own
> messes.

I missed this original post, but whenever I hear this I think of all
the times my friends and family have helped each other clean up
messes. Let me think: lending money to a friend on the verge of
bankruptcy. Flying across the country on a couple of hours notice to
help out after a house burned down. Doing someone's dishes when she
has a new baby. Handy friends stepping in halfway through a project
when non-handy friends get in over their heads. Offering a place to
stay when a relationship doesn't work out. Balancing accounts and
helping an overwhelmed friend make a financial plan. Offering to help
with resumes and job-hunting when someone gets fired. I have another
good friend who struggles to keep her house in order, as I do, and we
have many times offered each other moral support and practical help
reining in the chaos. We clean up each other's messes all the time.

> One of my favorite Joycisms was when she had split milk on the floor;
> her very young daughter, Kat, walked past and said, "You made that
> mess, YOU clean it up." Only repeating what had been said to her.
> Stopped Joyce in her tracks.

I've been dealing with a health problem that makes me tired, and
cranky either because it's directly affecting my mood or because I'm
so tired of being tired. I get more easily overwhelmed. A couple of
weeks ago, I tripped over a bin of Legos and spilled them all over
the living room floor. I kept walking, because I needed to pee and I
also needed a couple of minutes to chill out or the spilled Legos
were going to send me around the bend in a straw-that-broke-the-
camel's-back kind of way. When I came back into the living room a
couple of minutes later, I found my 5-year-old and my 3-year-old just
putting the last of the Legos back into the bin. "We helped oo,
Mama," my 3-year-old said, and then they ran off to play.

Sometimes, my five-year-old and I will discuss what kind of family we
want to have, when we're struggling. "Do we want to have a family
where people don't help each other?" we'll say, and we agree that we
don't want that kind of family. It helps _both_ of us be more
flexible and loving with each other. I think we would agree that we
don't want a family where each person has to deal with all of her own
mistakes all by herself.

Su

mom of Eric, 5, and Carl, 3

Laurie Wolfrum

I can't say these two books are "unschooling
friendly," but like all things, take what you like and
leave the rest. "The Explosive Child" and "Raising
Your Spirited Child" are two books to consider.

Also, the following links might be especially helpful
in dealing with intense children...

http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/spirited

http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/highneed.htm
l

Many great articles from:
http://www.naturalchild.org/

For me this one was helpful:
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/22_alternatives.html

Laurie Wolfrum



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Julie Hampton

I agree but there is a difference between "helping" someone and Cleaning up after someone's rage. We also help each other when accidents happen but if a child delibrately goes to throw something or in our case push everything off the table or dump out box of markers then I say "you make the mess you clean it up". She does not like cleaning up her mad mess and so most the time she stops. Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: Su Penn<mailto:supenn@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re:Raging kids without violent households



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kelly <bequiet65@...<mailto:bequiet65@...>>
>
> Also, if he destroys something
> during a rage, no one should fix it or clean it up but him. That's not
> punishment or coercion, it's life - you are responsible to clean up
> your own
> messes.

I missed this original post, but whenever I hear this I think of all
the times my friends and family have helped each other clean up
messes. Let me think: lending money to a friend on the verge of
bankruptcy. Flying across the country on a couple of hours notice to
help out after a house burned down. Doing someone's dishes when she
has a new baby. Handy friends stepping in halfway through a project
when non-handy friends get in over their heads. Offering a place to
stay when a relationship doesn't work out. Balancing accounts and
helping an overwhelmed friend make a financial plan. Offering to help
with resumes and job-hunting when someone gets fired. I have another
good friend who struggles to keep her house in order, as I do, and we
have many times offered each other moral support and practical help
reining in the chaos. We clean up each other's messes all the time.

> One of my favorite Joycisms was when she had split milk on the floor;
> her very young daughter, Kat, walked past and said, "You made that
> mess, YOU clean it up." Only repeating what had been said to her.
> Stopped Joyce in her tracks.

I've been dealing with a health problem that makes me tired, and
cranky either because it's directly affecting my mood or because I'm
so tired of being tired. I get more easily overwhelmed. A couple of
weeks ago, I tripped over a bin of Legos and spilled them all over
the living room floor. I kept walking, because I needed to pee and I
also needed a couple of minutes to chill out or the spilled Legos
were going to send me around the bend in a straw-that-broke-the-
camel's-back kind of way. When I came back into the living room a
couple of minutes later, I found my 5-year-old and my 3-year-old just
putting the last of the Legos back into the bin. "We helped oo,
Mama," my 3-year-old said, and then they ran off to play.

Sometimes, my five-year-old and I will discuss what kind of family we
want to have, when we're struggling. "Do we want to have a family
where people don't help each other?" we'll say, and we agree that we
don't want that kind of family. It helps _both_ of us be more
flexible and loving with each other. I think we would agree that we
don't want a family where each person has to deal with all of her own
mistakes all by herself.

Su

mom of Eric, 5, and Carl, 3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly

Oh my, apparently I don't handle my children or situation well at all. I didn't ask for your advice, I was giving my response about a possible cause to another's post asking for help. I know my children and my family far better than any of you do, and and none of what I said was out of line with good parenting, good friendship, or in any way indicated unhealthy thinking. My kids are great according to our family's standards (happy, healthy, kind, loving), so I must be doing something right.

Just wanted you to know where I stand.

~~ When the first baby laughed for the first time,
the laugh broke into thousands of pieces
and they all went skipping about,
and that was the beginning of fairies ~ Peter Pan ~~
Check out my website at www.KellyLee.info and my favorite photos at www.KellyLee.info/photos
Yours Truly,
Kelly



____________________________________________________________________________________You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly <bequiet65@...>

Oh my, apparently I don't handle my children or situation well at
all. I didn't
ask for your advice, I was giving my response about a possible cause to
another's post asking for help. I know my children and my family far
better
than any of you do, and and none of what I said was out of line with
good
parenting, good friendship, or in any way indicated unhealthy thinking.
My kids
are great according to our family's standards (happy, healthy, kind,
loving), so
I must be doing something right.

Just wanted you to know where I stand.


-=-=-=-

But unless the advice jives with the philosophy of unschooling and
gentle, mindful parenting (that children are born learners and that we
should be their partners, not their adversaries), that "advice" will be
challenged and better advice given.

Telling a child, "You made the mess, YOU clean it up!" isn't meeting
the child Where He Is Right Now, nor is it understanding that he needs
MORE tools, not fewer.

No child *wants* to be angry and frustrated: he *wants* to be calm and
happy. When he's not (due to things beyond his immediate control), he
may lash out. Punishing him by making him "Clean that mess up!" will
not be the best way to get him to a calm and happy state. He didn't
*want* to be angry and destructive, he just had no other tools.
Punishing him for the lack of tools will only make him disrespectful
and resentful ...and probably angrier.

My goal is to help him learn how to handle anger. Making him angrier
doesn't do that. Helping him clean up the mess he made while talking
about how frustrating it can be to be eight or twelve or 39 *can*. <g>
I can also use that time to let him know how much I love him even when
he's so angry, and we can talk about what's making him angry and about
other ways to deal with his anger.

Although your advice would be accepted on a mainstream, conventional
parenting e-list, I *do* find your "advice" out of line with the goals
of this list.


~Kelly, listowner

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly <bequiet65@...>

I know my children and my family far better
than any of you do, and and none of what I said was out of line with
good parenting, good friendship, or in any way indicated unhealthy
thinking.

-=-=-=-

If a "good friend" of mine repeatedly treated me the way most parents
treat their kids, I'd have a hard time keeping friendships. Most
parents treat *strangers* better than they treat their kids.

I'd sincerely hope a friend would *help* me when I'm angry and
frustrated and melting down. I would hope she wouldn't send me to
another room to cool off and "knuckle down" or tell me to clean up my
own mess. I would hope she would comfort me and help me.

I think it's unhealthy to think that punishments result in positive
feelings towards the punisher.

I think it's very wise advice to suggest that we treat our children as
we wish we had been treated when we were children.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


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bequiet65

>>Re: But unless the advice jives with the philosophy of unschooling
and gentle, mindful parenting (that children are born learners and
that we should be their partners, not their adversaries),
that "advice" will be challenged and better advice given.<<


Since my methods have worked to produce two happy and healthy
children, I can't see that anyone would have *better* "advice." I
would agree, though, that different families with different
personalities and situations might need different advice from what
one person offers. That is why I offer, from my own experience, what
has worked for me. It's just an option for someone to consider.

Viewing a mess that someone makes as his/hers to clean up does not
fall outside the borders of gentle, mindful parenting. I never said
you had to be ugly about it, like some of the sample quotes
indicated. You just start early with picking up toys with your child
and grow into an understanding that my mess is mine to clean up and
your mess is yours. But that doesn't mean we can't help each other.

>>Telling a child, "You made the mess, YOU clean it up!" isn't
meeting the child Where He Is Right Now, nor is it understanding that
he needs MORE tools, not fewer.<<

>>No child *wants* to be angry and frustrated: he *wants* to be calm
and happy. When he's not (due to things beyond his immediate
control), he may lash out. Punishing him by making him "Clean that
mess up!" will not be the best way to get him to a calm and happy
state. He didn't *want* to be angry and destructive, he just had no
other tools.<<

Of course children do not want to feel angry and distressed. And
many adults don't even have tools to handle it, so why would anyone
expect a child to?

I never said or intimated that a child be *required* to clean up a
mess they made while they are still in the midst of an emotional
storm. Nor should they be told (because it's ugly), "You know you're
going to have to clean that up later. It's your mess, you have to
clean it up." That, as you pointed out, would only exacerbate the
anger.

I did not indicate that a child should be punished at all for an
outburst of anger. I said that no one else should clean up his
mess. I never even said that he should be *told* to clean up the
mess because he made it.


>>Punishing him for the lack of tools will only make him
disrespectful and resentful ...and probably angrier.<<

I agree. That's why I didn't mention punishing the child.

>>My goal is to help him learn how to handle anger.<<

Mine, too!

>>Making him angrier doesn't do that.<<

Sometimes there comes a point when anything you do or don't do makes
the child angrier. By handling your own intense emotions in a
productive way, you are role modeling a tool the child can learn.
Going into another room, when my daughter is raging and even looking
at me makes her scream more, is productive. It gets at least one
source of frustration out of her way for a while. It isn't
abandonment. She knows I'm there. She knows she's welcome if she
wants me, or that I will go right to her if she calls. If the
separation becomes irrelevant, or causes further distress, of course
I respond to her need for support.

And every time she gets through something like that we don't have
a "you-shouldn't-act-like-that" talk. I just ask, "Do you feel
better?" and "Do you want something to eat?" and take cues from her
about what to talk about from that point. Usually she ends up asking
questions (that I've answered a thousand times) about hypoglycemia
and managing it.

>>Helping him clean up the mess he made while talking about how
frustrating it can be to be eight or twelve or 39 *can*. <g> <<

>>I can also use that time to let him know how much I love him even
when he's so angry, and we can talk about what's making him angry and
about other ways to deal with his anger.<<

Yes, I certainly agree that assisting him to clean up the mess shows
grace, and love and provides an excellant opportunity for
constructive conversation. I've done that many times. But it's
still not my mess to clean up, I help because I have love for my
child. Many times my son would quietly clean up the mess without
even letting me know.

>> Although your advice would be accepted on a mainstream,
conventional parenting e-list, I *do* find your "advice" out of line
with the goals of this list.<<

I feel that some assumptions were made about me and my parenting that
are not true. Perhaps, in trying to keep my post to a reasonable
length I left too many questions open about how we do things around
here. I would welcome the opportunity to clarify anything I post, if
needed, rather than endure being told publicly that my parenting is
not appropriate, when it is appropriate and effective. I suppose
*if* I post again I will not worry about the length of the post.
I'll just write and write and make sure nothing is left open to
assumption.

I'm also confused about the name of this list "Unschoolingbasics" and
the expectation that everyone will be well versed in the philosophies
of John Holt and gentle, mindful parenting? The basics part makes me
think it's for beginners. Is it not?


Once again, I must point out that since my children are thriving and
happy and learning, I must be doing something right.


List Member,
Kelly Lee

Christy Mahoney

Well, now I feel I must point out that there are kids in school that
are thriving and happy and learning. There are parents who had a
first child who was thriving with conventional parenting, parents
who
thought they were doing everything right, and then a second child
came
along who did not respond at all the same. But this list is not
going
to recommend school just because some kids are happy there, or say
that time-outs are okay because some kids seem fine with them.

I think it's always a good thing to examine what we do as parents.
Even if our kids are happy, that doesn't mean we can't improve in
certain areas and make our lives even more great.

-Christy M.

> Once again, I must point out that since my children are thriving
and
> happy and learning, I must be doing something right.
>
>
> List Member,
> Kelly Lee
>

Ren Allen

~~This is soo true I had to do it with my raging 2 yr old- she makes
the mess while mad she she has to clean it up. It has helped a lot~~

Helped how? Helped her trust that you're there for her, even when
she's having a difficult moment? Helped her stop the behavior because
it's more convenient for the parent? Sure. It's not helping your
relationship with her though. She now knows that she's on her own if
she's having a particularly rough time. That's too bad.

Two year olds have VERY few tools. I am surprised that any two year
old would be expected to clean up any kind of mess on their own unless
they wanted to. That's heavy expectation.

I would help my teen clean up if he had a rage...though I know NOTHING
of raging teens since both my teens are very happy, even-keeled human
beings. I would much rather know that my loved ones are there for me,
even when I have a rough moment. It would make me really sad if
someone said "you made the mess, you clean it up" regardless of what
caused the mess.

I'm glad we just help each other around here, it's made for better
relationships and a much happier family. Nobody is on their own when
they need help.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~Once again, I must point out that since my children are thriving
and happy and learning, I must be doing something right.~~

If that's as far as a person wants to take it, then they might not be
comfortable with deeper examination. Most every parent could say the
above, yet their kids aren't deeply happy and don't even know that
things could be better/different.

Lots of kids seem to be happy, thriving and learning. We're here to
examine more deeply and see places where we can do even better.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~Viewing a mess that someone makes as his/hers to clean up does not
fall outside the borders of gentle, mindful parenting. ~~


How is it mindful or respectful to leave someone that needs help? If
they child wants to clean it up on their own, then that isn't an
issue. But if the parent decides for the child that they will clean it
up because it's THEIR mess, then it does become punishment. And
punishing other human beings isn't mindful in my book. It's coercion
and not at all gentle.

Here is some information on mindfulness:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness
http://www.parentcoachinginstitute.com/articles/normand_MindfulParenting.html

Mindfulness has such meaning, but most of all it means being fully
present in the moment. When I am fully present for my child, there is
no judgement of who deserves to clean up a mess or placing blame on
anyone or anything. When I am fully present, I can simply be in the
moment, noticing both my feelings and the situation. I can choose
actions more clearly in that place of being fully present.

When we see our children as human beings doing the very best they can
in each and every moment, it frees us to be their partners without
judgement, without guilt or blame or punishment of any kind. Thats a
good place to be.

Suddenly, whose mess it is no longer matters at all and one can act
with compassion.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~Since my methods have worked to produce two happy and healthy
children, I can't see that anyone would have *better* "advice."~~

I could have said the same thing many, many years ago when I still
pushed certain "educational" activities and punished my children. This
list exists to help us do better as parents. If better isn't the goal,
then what is?

Many methods produce happy, healthy children to most people. We're
here to explain mindful parenting and unschooling.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

kristenhendricks55

So because she has a medical condition you send her to her room where
shes "not present" to go through her rage cycle and then what? Shes
allowed back into the family's activities again?

So if , say.. she had Cancer... would you send her away to summer
camp and hope she got better while she was gone?

Not sure I understand the logic here... and well.. forget the
logic... I think thats actually pretty mean. Are you being serious?


--- In [email protected], Kelly <bequiet65@...> wrote:
>
> I don't remember you stating what sex/age your child is - and I'm
not able to get back to the email easily. So I'll just share:
>
> 1) I have three 15yo boys that live around me, one of which is
mine. Each one began having rages around the ages of 10-12 and
lasting until ages 13-15. With each of them, hormonal shifts were
the initiating cause; but each case was exacerbated by situational
difficulties such as a father not being present in the home,
diagnosed psychological problems, or fighting parents.
>
> I can see a boy going through these ages but having no situational
circumstances but having extreme rages if he has never experienced a
lot of anger, so he doesn't know what to do with it. Or there can
even be secondary circumstances that are not clear.
>
> Unfortunately, if hormones are the initial cause all you can do is
keep on providing a good role model, talk calmly to him if you have
to at all during one of those rages, and wait until he gets older.
Also, if he destroys something during a rage, no one should fix it or
clean it up but him. That's not punishment or coercion, it's life -
you are responsible to clean up your own messes.
>
>
> 2) My 11yo daughter and I have difficulties with hypoglycemia. If
we do not eat every 3-4 hours, the blood sugar drops WAY down and one
of the symptoms of hypoglycemia is irritability - only with my
daughter it shows as unreasonable displays of anger and rage. Even
when she knows her blood sugar is low, she will, in a rage, refuse to
eat anything that will help her (as in NOT candy), as well as throw
things, scream and cry, etc.; she's totally unreasonable.
>
> The solution here is reminding her to eat in a timely manner, and
offering her something with a sugar, protein combination when she
starts getting cranky. If she gets to the rage stage, we remove the
audience by sending her to her room, or going where she's not
present, and letting her get it out of her system. Eventually she
knuckles under to what her body is trying to tell her and will get
something to eat.
>
> ~~ When the first baby laughed for the first time,
> the laugh broke into thousands of pieces
> and they all went skipping about,
> and that was the beginning of fairies ~ Peter Pan ~~
> Check out my website at www.KellyLee.info and my favorite photos
at www.KellyLee.info/photos
> Yours Truly,
> Kelly
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
______________Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

kristenhendricks55

Don't you ever read one of those articles where someone kills someone
else and the neghbors/relatives all say "Oh I just dont understand...
he was SUCH a happy person"...

Was he REALLY happy or was that their perception because they didnt
take the time to examine the persons feelings and get to know the
real emotions underneath?

Its easy to look at your kid watching TV and giggling and say how
happy she/he is... but how happy can a person be that is blowing up
in anger and having their mother tell them "Oh well... you deal with
it". Shes 2, not 20. And even at 20 I would hope that you would still
help her when she needed it :)


--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~Once again, I must point out that since my children are thriving
> and happy and learning, I must be doing something right.~~
>
> If that's as far as a person wants to take it, then they might not
be
> comfortable with deeper examination. Most every parent could say the
> above, yet their kids aren't deeply happy and don't even know that
> things could be better/different.
>
> Lots of kids seem to be happy, thriving and learning. We're here to
> examine more deeply and see places where we can do even better.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

bequiet65

I was not clear, and you, and others, misunderstood.

I don't send her (BTW she's 11yo) to her room as in "Go to your
room!" When she gets to the point where she can't stand anyone or
anything, when even looking at me (or her dad or her brother) sends
her into new heights of screaming and raging, I say, "Would you like
to go to your room?" Sometimes, she does, sometimes, she doesn't.
If she doesn't. I will go into another room. But I can always hear
her if she calls me, and she's welcome to come to me when she wants
to, but when she reaches that certain point where her family members
just make it worse, it's kinder to separate from her and allow her
calm down a bit.

THEN when she's asking for me, or comes to the room where I am, she's
able to benefit from interacting with me. Sometimes she still
refuses food at that point, but as long as my presence isn't causing
her MORE distress, I'm right there with her.

And we don't just carry on family activities without like she's
missing out because she's acting up. I'll guarantee you everything
comes to a standstill when she is in this state. Granted, her
brother might high-tail it down to his friend's house, but her father
and I put off any participatory activities until she can be a part of
it too (and at least part-way enjoy it).

The *point* of my original post was to tell the other poster that
hormonal changes and hypoglycemia can cause rages.

BTW, it's funny you mention summer camp because she is going but not
to cure her of hypoglycemia or cancer. She's going because she wants
to. With any luck, she won't have an episode like this at camp! But
I'm sure they'll get through it if she does.

--- In [email protected], "kristenhendricks55"
<kristenhendricks55@...> wrote:
>
> So because she has a medical condition you send her to her room
where
> shes "not present" to go through her rage cycle and then what? Shes
> allowed back into the family's activities again?
>
> So if , say.. she had Cancer... would you send her away to summer
> camp and hope she got better while she was gone?
>
> Not sure I understand the logic here... and well.. forget the
> logic... I think thats actually pretty mean. Are you being serious?
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Kelly <bequiet65@> wrote:
> >
> > I don't remember you stating what sex/age your child is - and I'm
> not able to get back to the email easily. So I'll just share:
> >
> > 1) I have three 15yo boys that live around me, one of which is
> mine. Each one began having rages around the ages of 10-12 and
> lasting until ages 13-15. With each of them, hormonal shifts were
> the initiating cause; but each case was exacerbated by situational
> difficulties such as a father not being present in the home,
> diagnosed psychological problems, or fighting parents.
> >
> > I can see a boy going through these ages but having no
situational
> circumstances but having extreme rages if he has never experienced
a
> lot of anger, so he doesn't know what to do with it. Or there can
> even be secondary circumstances that are not clear.
> >
> > Unfortunately, if hormones are the initial cause all you can do
is
> keep on providing a good role model, talk calmly to him if you have
> to at all during one of those rages, and wait until he gets older.
> Also, if he destroys something during a rage, no one should fix it
or
> clean it up but him. That's not punishment or coercion, it's life -
> you are responsible to clean up your own messes.
> >
> >
> > 2) My 11yo daughter and I have difficulties with hypoglycemia.
If
> we do not eat every 3-4 hours, the blood sugar drops WAY down and
one
> of the symptoms of hypoglycemia is irritability - only with my
> daughter it shows as unreasonable displays of anger and rage. Even
> when she knows her blood sugar is low, she will, in a rage, refuse
to
> eat anything that will help her (as in NOT candy), as well as throw
> things, scream and cry, etc.; she's totally unreasonable.
> >
> > The solution here is reminding her to eat in a timely manner, and
> offering her something with a sugar, protein combination when she
> starts getting cranky. If she gets to the rage stage, we remove
the
> audience by sending her to her room, or going where she's not
> present, and letting her get it out of her system. Eventually she
> knuckles under to what her body is trying to tell her and will get
> something to eat.
> >
> > ~~ When the first baby laughed for the first time,
> > the laugh broke into thousands of pieces
> > and they all went skipping about,
> > and that was the beginning of fairies ~ Peter Pan ~~
> > Check out my website at www.KellyLee.info and my favorite photos
> at www.KellyLee.info/photos
> > Yours Truly,
> > Kelly
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
______________________________________________________________________
> ______________Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Julie Hampton

Tell me what you would do with a 2 yr old who when she did not get her way she would either walk away and over to the table and throw anything on it off to the floor and then stand back and say "hen". Very limited speech. or she would dump out the containers of whatever is closest (markers, toys, food).

Is the answer to give everything she wants? I find that it is this child who moves me to saying yes and finding a way to make it work BUT there are still times when she simply does not get her way when she wants it.

suggestions would be nice from people who HAVE had a raging child and how they handle it

Julie



----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen<mailto:starsuncloud@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 8:22 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re:Raging kids without violent households


~~This is soo true I had to do it with my raging 2 yr old- she makes
the mess while mad she she has to clean it up. It has helped a lot~~

Helped how? Helped her trust that you're there for her, even when
she's having a difficult moment? Helped her stop the behavior because
it's more convenient for the parent? Sure. It's not helping your
relationship with her though. She now knows that she's on her own if
she's having a particularly rough time. That's too bad.

Two year olds have VERY few tools. I am surprised that any two year
old would be expected to clean up any kind of mess on their own unless
they wanted to. That's heavy expectation.

I would help my teen clean up if he had a rage...though I know NOTHING
of raging teens since both my teens are very happy, even-keeled human
beings. I would much rather know that my loved ones are there for me,
even when I have a rough moment. It would make me really sad if
someone said "you made the mess, you clean it up" regardless of what
caused the mess.

I'm glad we just help each other around here, it's made for better
relationships and a much happier family. Nobody is on their own when
they need help.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

bequiet65

>>If better isn't the goal,then what is?<<

Happy, healthy children who grow into happy, healthy adults is the
goal. I don't have to feel like I'm *better* than someone else at
doing that.

>>Many methods produce happy, healthy children to most people. We're
here to explain mindful parenting and unschooling.<<

The point of my original post was to let the other poster know that
hormonal changes and hypoglycemia can cause rages. I was simply
sharing my experience with my children as an example, not trying to
influence her parenting.

Fetteroll

On May 23, 2007, at 12:25 AM, bequiet65 wrote:
> I don't have to feel like I'm *better* than someone else at
> doing that.

She meant doing better than yesterday rather than better than someone
else.

> I was simply
> sharing my experience with my children as an example, not trying to
> influence her parenting.

The list *exists* to influence others' parenting :-) to help other
parents apply the principles of trust and respect to parenting.

Unlike most lists that discuss parenting, this list isn't about
people sharing "what works for us". It's about helping families form
better relationships so their children can learn and grow.

It's about helping parents apply the principles of trust and respect.

It's hard to look at conventional parenting objectively. It's what
(seemingly) everyone who has decent kids does. But conventional
parenting also turns out criminals and keeps therapists and self-help
writers in business. So it feels like parenting is a crap shoot and
you do the best you can.

It's funny that when conventional parents claim their kids are loving
and kind and so forth, and then dig deep to explain what they're
doing with their kids beyond the punishment, it always turns out that
in addition to conventional parenting, they're connecting and bonding
with their kids through dialog, actually listening to their kids
rather than talking at them.

It's the relationship that's allowing conventional parenting to work,
not the conventional parenting itself. Because if it was conventional
parenting that worked it would always turn out great kids. But it
doesn't.

We just skip the conventional parenting and go for the part that
works! :-)

Parents can do better than a crap shoot by applying the principles
that help humans thrive: love, trust, respect, partnership.

Most parents would claim they do that. But in conventional parenting
those principles are far down the list of what's important. The
underlying principle of conventional parenting is getting the child
to behave in ways the parents feel is acceptable to create kids who
are happy, healthy and thoughtful. Parents may employ what feels to
the parent like love and respect in their molding but the goal is
improving the child's behavior, getting the child to think in the
right way: stop the raging, stop the tantrums, do their chores, clean
up after themselves, say please and thank you, close the door, come
home on time and so on and so on.

If we applied the goals and techniques of conventional parenting to
any other relationship we wouldn't have relationships at all!
Conventional parenting is so disrespectful of children, that it's a
testament to the parent child bond that it ever works at all.

At the foundation of conventional parenting is the idea: "I know a
better way for you to be and I'm going to employ various techniques
until you catch on."

At the foundation of mindful parenting is the idea: "I know you're
doing the best you can. Let's see if we can figure out together an
even better way to get what you want."

Kids don't want to rage. They don't want to hit each other. But they
do want to get their needs met. And mindful parenting focuses on
being the child's partner in finding a better way to meet their needs
without stepping on other's toes.

Mindful parenting is about assuming that kids don't want to do wrong
things. Mindful parents assume kids want to be kind and thoughtful
but just don't have the knowledge, skills or understanding to do so
always. We help them, and trust that they're doing the best they can.

> I was not clear, and you, and others, misunderstood.

On this list we need to be as crystal clear as we possibly can about
what part of what we're doing is working. "This works for us," isn't
good enough. Analyzing why it works and what the underlying
principles are that are working will help others.

As a general rule "Go to your room," or even "Would you like to go to
your room?" are not techniques that any parent can pick up and apply
at home to see if they work.

Sending a child away isn't what's working. Helping a child get what
she needs does work. You may have come to a mutual understanding with
your daughter that asking her if she'd like to be away from people is
what she as a unique individual needs. But it's meeting her needs
that worked, not sending her to her room that works.

Does the distinction make sense?

On this list we help parents figure out how to meet their kids
needs, not hand them conventional parenting techniques (eg, sending a
child to her room or even *asking* a child if she wants to go to her
room).

Joyce




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: bequiet65 <bequiet65@...>

The *point* of my original post was to tell the other poster that
hormonal changes and hypoglycemia can cause rages

-=-=-=-

OK---Hormonal changes and hypoglycemia can cause rages. So can food
allergies. So can over-tiredness. So can a lot of things. That doesn't
make abandonment or punishment the cure.

Your response was more focussed on what to do to the child if these
things were the cause. So your post *seemed* to point out what you
believe to think is a good way to deal with the rages. I don't agree
that they are particularly *good* ways to deal with the rages. I know
better ways. And I don't want new readers to think that this list
advocates such tactics with children.

-=-=-=-=-=-

BTW, it's funny you mention summer camp because she is going but not
to cure her of hypoglycemia or cancer. She's going because she wants
to. With any luck, she won't have an episode like this at camp! But
I'm sure they'll get through it if she does.

-=-=-=-

How? Have you told them she must be asked whether she'd like to go to
her room? Or that everyone should leave the room she's in? Camp, with
its late nights and early mornings and rigid eating schedule (and often
the children aren't allowed to bring outside food), is a rough place to
be when you're raging due to hypoglycemia.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.

Fetteroll

On May 22, 2007, at 3:34 PM, Julie Hampton wrote:

> but if a child delibrately goes to throw something or in our case
> push everything off the table or dump out box of markers then I say
> "you make the mess you clean it up".

*Why* is she deliberately throwing and creating the mess?

That, for mindful parenting purposes, is where to begin problem solving.

Conventional parenting begins with the action as the problem and
tries to change the action. Which is why it seems to make sense to
present a child's behavior and describe how to respond when a child
does that.

Mindful parenting begins with the reasons behind the action and helps
the child find a better way to meet her needs. A dozen children
throwing things and pushing things off the table would have a dozen
reasons for doing it. One child might have a dozen different reasons
for the dozen times they've done it. It doesn't make sense to respond
to them all the same. (One reason might be that it's fun. :-) And if
it's fun, why be the fun police? Join in! :-)

Kids don't want to hurt others but when they feel they need to fight
to get their needs met then they will resort to means that head
straight to what they want because they don't yet have the skills and
perhaps not the mental development to weigh all the pros and cons of
their options.

If she needs something then she's trying to communicate that and
either doesn't know how or the parent hasn't been picking up her
signals and she needed to resort to something dramatic to get the
parent to pay attention.

That's just the general ideas behind mindful parenting. It doesn't
specifically address the behavior you described because you haven't
told us the reasons.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: bequiet65 <bequiet65@...>

Since my methods have worked to produce two happy and healthy
children, I can't see that anyone would have *better* "advice." I
would agree, though, that different families with different
personalities and situations might need different advice from what
one person offers. That is why I offer, from my own experience, what
has worked for me. It's just an option for someone to consider.

-=-=-=-=-

My parents, from their own experience, believe that spankings worked
for them. They believe it's an option for others to consider too. Their
methods produced two, what they considered, happy and healthy children
too. But the rage I still feel about the spankings---well, I'm still
trying to get over it.

-=-==-==-

Viewing a mess that someone makes as his/hers to clean up does not
fall outside the borders of gentle, mindful parenting.

-=-=-=-

On this list it does.

-=-===-=-

You just start early with picking up toys with your child
and grow into an understanding that my mess is mine to clean up and
your mess is yours.

-=-=-=-=-=-

When you're 80 and having trouble cleaning your own messes, I hope that
is not the attitude your children take.

-==-=-=-=-=-

I never said or intimated that a child be *required* to clean up a
mess they made while they are still in the midst of an emotional
storm.

-=-=-=-=-

But later's OK. How's that *not* punishment?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I did not indicate that a child should be punished at all for an
outburst of anger. I said that no one else should clean up his
mess. I never even said that he should be *told* to clean up the
mess because he made it.

-=-=-=-=-=-

How would he know he's supposed to if he's not told to? Years and years
of practice?

Or do you just leave it there (since no one else should clean it up)?
How long is it allowed to stay there? Does he have a choice to clean up
or not?

-=-=-=-=-=-


>>Punishing him for the lack of tools will only make him
disrespectful and resentful ...and probably angrier.<<

I agree. That's why I didn't mention punishing the child.

-=-=-=-==-=-=

Maybe you'd like to define punishment?

-=-=-=-=-=-

I feel that some assumptions were made about me and my parenting that
are not true. Perhaps, in trying to keep my post to a reasonable
length I left too many questions open about how we do things around
here. I would welcome the opportunity to clarify anything I post, if
needed, rather than endure being told publicly that my parenting is
not appropriate, when it is appropriate and effective. I suppose
*if* I post again I will not worry about the length of the post.
I'll just write and write and make sure nothing is left open to
assumption.

-=-=-=-=-

Yes, we made assumptions---some you're still proving were correct.

It's not necessary to "write and write" if you can be clear the first
time. If your intent were to simply say that hormones and hypoglycemia
may cause raging, maybe you could have stopped there; but you continued
to say how you dealt with the rages. THAT is what we're challenging.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I'm also confused about the name of this list "Unschoolingbasics" and
the expectation that everyone will be well versed in the philosophies
of John Holt and gentle, mindful parenting? The basics part makes me
think it's for beginners. Is it not?

-=-=-=-=-=-

We certainly don't believe that everyone will be "well versed in the
philosophies of John Holt and gentle, mindful parenting." In fact, we
assume most folks will *not* be, so we spend a lot of time trying to
explain what they are. Having conflicting advice doesn't further our
goal of guiding folks TO unschooling and mindful parenting. Had I let
your advice stand unchallenged, someone may have thought---"Oh! That's
OK too!---and easier! I'll do that!"

You were writing about what works for you---not necessariily what works
for your children. I don't think that your advice was an example of
gentle, mindful parenting.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Once again, I must point out that since my children are thriving and
happy and learning, I must be doing something right.

-=-=-=-=-

You know, that was EXACTLY what my mother said earlier this month on
Mother's Day: she must've done something right. I just had to shake my
head---she really thinks that her parenting was good. Why? Because I
haven't committed suicide and I'm not in prison???

We can be better parents. Each and every day.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.

Fetteroll

On May 22, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Julie Hampton wrote:

> This is soo true I had to do it with my raging 2 yr old- she makes
> the mess while mad she she has to clean it up. It has helped a lot

No, she doesn't have to. You choose to make her. You choose to model
for her that when you're big and strong and don't like what someone
weaker than you is doing, you can make them do whatever you want.

Teachers believe they teach children to read too. But what happens is
that kids get older and they reach the point where they would
naturally have figured out reading during the time they're being taught.

If teaching was necessary, then unschooled kids would never read.

If making a child clean up a mess was necessary to stop the behavior,
then mindful parenting wouldn't work. Kids would still be throwing
things as teens.

Kids *can* learn through punishment. They can learn to avoid certain
behaviors. But there are relationship-damaging consequences that we
take the chance of happening when we use punishment.

If it's not something you would do with a friend, if it's something
you fear might harm a friendship, why would you use it on a child who
trust you?

There *are* ways to help kids meet their needs that enhance
relationships *and* help them gain skills to meet their needs in ways
that don't harm others. Those are the ideas we help people with on
this particular list. There are thousands of lists and websites where
parents can go to find out how to make their children do what the
parents believe is best. On this particular one we help parents help
their children and help them build relationships *and* have happy,
healthy, thoughtful children.

None of what we say and do will make sense if you feel what you're
doing works. This list is for people who've been there and done that
and want something the feel is better. So conventional parenting
practices will be held up and examined for the effect they have on
relationships and ways that will work that don't tear down
relationships will be offered instead.

Joyce




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]