Re: Are limits ever good or needed
Deb Lewis
***But last night there was a reason he watched several hours
with me nearby.***
What was the reason?
I watch movies with Dylan but I watch because we enjoy the same kinds of
movies and because I enjoy being with him and hearing his opinions.
***The shows seemed to me...hideous. I choose that word very
carefully. They were to me violent, bleak, hopeless and soul-numbing. They
filled me with sorrow for their makers and for their audience, which I was
so
sorry to find included my son. I am not naive; I am 46, have been through
much
in life and I work in an ER. I am not that easily shocked. I doubt that my
feelings were unreasonable. I shared my sorrow with him. Our discussion went
on
for a while, but no agreement could be reached.***
I wonder if you'd be willing to tell us what the shows were, or why you
didn't tell us what they were?
You chose your words carefully but could part of the reason you didn't tell
us what the shows were be that you didn't want to have to defend your
carefully chosen words if someone here said, "I watch that!" or, "my kids
watch that!"?
Being "filled with sorrow" for people who made a movie you found hideous
seems extreme. That's a really big judgment about a couple hundred people
(or however many worked on that film) you don't know anything about. And
the audience? That may be thousands of people you're assuming have such
poor judgment and character they need you to feel sorry for them.
You wrote, "The shows seemed to me... hideous"... "They were to me
violent...They filled me with sorrow..."
Those movies weren't about you or your experiences. You're reacting to
what you suppose is a kind of warped psychology behind the production of the
movies. You're the one with the problem, not your son, and you're working
really hard at trying to make him share your problem. Your feelings while
watching the movies are not universal. What you're doing is like a school
kid trying to make her friends hate a person she hates. You'll feel better
about yourself if you can get someone else to agree with you.
Your son does not have to share your feelings or opinions to be a good
person. He can make different choices and enjoy different things and still
be a smart and thoughtful person.
This is something I think it's hard for us to wrap our mind around. Our
relationship with our kids is like no other relationship. We know them from
the moment they're born. We come to know what every cry means, what every
look means and we think we know everything about them. But that changes,
and NEEDS to change. Our kids are entitled to their own thoughts and ideas,
their own preferences. They have a right to be themselves. We do not have
a right to be inside their heads deciding what they like and what they
value.
You wrote, ..."They were to me violent..."
My kid gets cranky when people say a movie is violent. The movie doesn't go
after anyone and bludgeon them. The movie doesn't shoot at people. The
movie doesn't slap anyone around or spank babies. Movies aren't violent.
There might be depictions of violence in a movie but a movie is not
committing violence against anyone.
***He at first thought that because I feared that these shows, seen so
frequently, could
harm him, that I lacked trust in him. ***
I think he's absolutely right.
***I went over again my belief that frequent exposure to anything will begin
to influence almost anybody. He began to
say.."Maybe you shouldn't allow this."***
Lot's of parents convince their kids that they can't trust their own
judgment. You can do that too but that kind of parenting isn't compatible
with unschooling. You get to choose which thing you want more.
I think *you* will harm him more by not trusting him, by believing and
conveying there's something wrong with his judgment and character because he
likes what you don't like, and by relentlessly judging and devaluing his
choices than he would be harmed by a lifetime of the most graphically
gruesome media.
***This feeling is very concerning to me, like my intuition is
telling me that he wants me to forbid these shows.***
The way your intuition told you that people who make or watch movies you
don't like must have something wrong with them? <g>
I think it's less intuition than it is the same old parenting messages that
people have been exchanging for years. That "they need limits" stuff many
of us have heard all our lives, in part to justify the choices our parents
made and in part to have an excuse to not think very much about why we
(parents and adults in general) get away with such damn poor behavior toward
children.
Sometimes when men hit their wives they say "she was asking for it."
Sometimes when men justify forcing a woman to have sex they say "she said no
but she meant yes." There is the potential for real harm in supposing we
know more about what another person wants and needs than they themselves
know.
First, I think you should calm down. What do you think will happen to him
if he watches movies? Would it help you to know that other unschooling
kids watch these kinds of movies and have for a long time and are still kind
to animals and old ladies and can do their own laundry?
My kid saw Starship Troopers when he seven or eight. I thought it might be
upsetting for him because he really loves bugs and I thought all that bug
splatting would bother him. I told him a little about the movie and he
wanted to see it. We rented it, he loved it, it didn't trouble him at all.
Well before he was thirteen he watched Pulp Fiction, Kill Bill and sequel,
other Quentin Tarantino movies, horror movies of all kinds, Lucio Fulci
movies, if you know that director (fond of zombies and gouging eyeballs out
and other long sequences of graphic pokings and slashings and beheadings).
Tell me what your kid watched the night you watched with him. Maybe I've
seen it. Maybe my son has seen it. We might be able to tell you all kinds
of wonderful things that came from our watching. <g>
Deb Lewis
with me nearby.***
What was the reason?
I watch movies with Dylan but I watch because we enjoy the same kinds of
movies and because I enjoy being with him and hearing his opinions.
***The shows seemed to me...hideous. I choose that word very
carefully. They were to me violent, bleak, hopeless and soul-numbing. They
filled me with sorrow for their makers and for their audience, which I was
so
sorry to find included my son. I am not naive; I am 46, have been through
much
in life and I work in an ER. I am not that easily shocked. I doubt that my
feelings were unreasonable. I shared my sorrow with him. Our discussion went
on
for a while, but no agreement could be reached.***
I wonder if you'd be willing to tell us what the shows were, or why you
didn't tell us what they were?
You chose your words carefully but could part of the reason you didn't tell
us what the shows were be that you didn't want to have to defend your
carefully chosen words if someone here said, "I watch that!" or, "my kids
watch that!"?
Being "filled with sorrow" for people who made a movie you found hideous
seems extreme. That's a really big judgment about a couple hundred people
(or however many worked on that film) you don't know anything about. And
the audience? That may be thousands of people you're assuming have such
poor judgment and character they need you to feel sorry for them.
You wrote, "The shows seemed to me... hideous"... "They were to me
violent...They filled me with sorrow..."
Those movies weren't about you or your experiences. You're reacting to
what you suppose is a kind of warped psychology behind the production of the
movies. You're the one with the problem, not your son, and you're working
really hard at trying to make him share your problem. Your feelings while
watching the movies are not universal. What you're doing is like a school
kid trying to make her friends hate a person she hates. You'll feel better
about yourself if you can get someone else to agree with you.
Your son does not have to share your feelings or opinions to be a good
person. He can make different choices and enjoy different things and still
be a smart and thoughtful person.
This is something I think it's hard for us to wrap our mind around. Our
relationship with our kids is like no other relationship. We know them from
the moment they're born. We come to know what every cry means, what every
look means and we think we know everything about them. But that changes,
and NEEDS to change. Our kids are entitled to their own thoughts and ideas,
their own preferences. They have a right to be themselves. We do not have
a right to be inside their heads deciding what they like and what they
value.
You wrote, ..."They were to me violent..."
My kid gets cranky when people say a movie is violent. The movie doesn't go
after anyone and bludgeon them. The movie doesn't shoot at people. The
movie doesn't slap anyone around or spank babies. Movies aren't violent.
There might be depictions of violence in a movie but a movie is not
committing violence against anyone.
***He at first thought that because I feared that these shows, seen so
frequently, could
harm him, that I lacked trust in him. ***
I think he's absolutely right.
***I went over again my belief that frequent exposure to anything will begin
to influence almost anybody. He began to
say.."Maybe you shouldn't allow this."***
Lot's of parents convince their kids that they can't trust their own
judgment. You can do that too but that kind of parenting isn't compatible
with unschooling. You get to choose which thing you want more.
I think *you* will harm him more by not trusting him, by believing and
conveying there's something wrong with his judgment and character because he
likes what you don't like, and by relentlessly judging and devaluing his
choices than he would be harmed by a lifetime of the most graphically
gruesome media.
***This feeling is very concerning to me, like my intuition is
telling me that he wants me to forbid these shows.***
The way your intuition told you that people who make or watch movies you
don't like must have something wrong with them? <g>
I think it's less intuition than it is the same old parenting messages that
people have been exchanging for years. That "they need limits" stuff many
of us have heard all our lives, in part to justify the choices our parents
made and in part to have an excuse to not think very much about why we
(parents and adults in general) get away with such damn poor behavior toward
children.
Sometimes when men hit their wives they say "she was asking for it."
Sometimes when men justify forcing a woman to have sex they say "she said no
but she meant yes." There is the potential for real harm in supposing we
know more about what another person wants and needs than they themselves
know.
First, I think you should calm down. What do you think will happen to him
if he watches movies? Would it help you to know that other unschooling
kids watch these kinds of movies and have for a long time and are still kind
to animals and old ladies and can do their own laundry?
My kid saw Starship Troopers when he seven or eight. I thought it might be
upsetting for him because he really loves bugs and I thought all that bug
splatting would bother him. I told him a little about the movie and he
wanted to see it. We rented it, he loved it, it didn't trouble him at all.
Well before he was thirteen he watched Pulp Fiction, Kill Bill and sequel,
other Quentin Tarantino movies, horror movies of all kinds, Lucio Fulci
movies, if you know that director (fond of zombies and gouging eyeballs out
and other long sequences of graphic pokings and slashings and beheadings).
Tell me what your kid watched the night you watched with him. Maybe I've
seen it. Maybe my son has seen it. We might be able to tell you all kinds
of wonderful things that came from our watching. <g>
Deb Lewis
Fetteroll
On May 15, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Deb Lewis wrote:
pyromanics." Someone else pointed out that isn't true, though what is
true is that pyromaniacs often become firefighters. They sound the
same but they aren't.
Dark, depressed people who make films will probably make dark films.
But, like the pyromaniac example, while dark people often make dark
movies, dark movies are not always made by dark people.
It can be *fun* to play around with ideas that you have no interest
in exploring in real life! For many people, creating or watching
them can be cathartic -- and fun :-)
I have no desire to kill people with swords or stake vampires but I
loved Xena and Buffy :-) While I steer clear of present day violent
movies that portray real consequences and raw emotions (just my
personal preference) I loved Kill Bill and 300 and Alien.
While being drawn to dark emotions can be a *symptom* of depression,
watching dark things -- or even dressing all in black -- doesn't
cause depression in someone who is happy.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> You're reacting toSomeone on another list recently said "Firefighters are often
> what you suppose is a kind of warped psychology behind the
> production of the
> movies.
pyromanics." Someone else pointed out that isn't true, though what is
true is that pyromaniacs often become firefighters. They sound the
same but they aren't.
Dark, depressed people who make films will probably make dark films.
But, like the pyromaniac example, while dark people often make dark
movies, dark movies are not always made by dark people.
It can be *fun* to play around with ideas that you have no interest
in exploring in real life! For many people, creating or watching
them can be cathartic -- and fun :-)
I have no desire to kill people with swords or stake vampires but I
loved Xena and Buffy :-) While I steer clear of present day violent
movies that portray real consequences and raw emotions (just my
personal preference) I loved Kill Bill and 300 and Alien.
While being drawn to dark emotions can be a *symptom* of depression,
watching dark things -- or even dressing all in black -- doesn't
cause depression in someone who is happy.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On May 15, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Deb Lewis wrote:
during a recent series of parenting discussion at my Quaker meeting.
During the meetings, "violent play" was often discussed. By that, we
all meant play where kids pretend to shoot each other, fight with
swords, tie each other up, and so on. But I realized I didn't like
that phrase. It seems so loaded. If you call that kind of play
"violent" instead of "imaginative play," for instance, it's really
easy to move to thinking it's bad, or less-preferred than other kinds
of imaginative play. It's easy to say you don't want--or allow--your
kids to do it. But there's no violence happening! Nobody's getting hurt.
In fact, I have a little essay brewing about how cooperative so-
called "violent play" is. The kids have to agree on what universe to
be in (knights or star wars or something else), what kinds of weapons
are OK, who is on what side, what the parameters of play are. Play is
regularly interrupted while the kids sort out issues like whether
Luke can suddenly decide to be a bad guy, or what happens when
someone gets "killed." An enormous amount of cooperation goes on in
supposedly "violent" play.
It's like those studies, too, that find that kids engage in more
"aggressive" play after they watch certain movies. That doesn't mean
that kids are being aggressive toward each other; it means that they
are engaging in imaginative play with aggression, fighting, or
violence as elements of _pretend_.
Su
> My kid gets cranky when people say a movie is violent. The movieI became aware of my own discomfort at the use of the word "violent"
> doesn't go
> after anyone and bludgeon them. The movie doesn't shoot at
> people. The
> movie doesn't slap anyone around or spank babies. Movies aren't
> violent.
> There might be depictions of violence in a movie but a movie is not
> committing violence against anyone.
during a recent series of parenting discussion at my Quaker meeting.
During the meetings, "violent play" was often discussed. By that, we
all meant play where kids pretend to shoot each other, fight with
swords, tie each other up, and so on. But I realized I didn't like
that phrase. It seems so loaded. If you call that kind of play
"violent" instead of "imaginative play," for instance, it's really
easy to move to thinking it's bad, or less-preferred than other kinds
of imaginative play. It's easy to say you don't want--or allow--your
kids to do it. But there's no violence happening! Nobody's getting hurt.
In fact, I have a little essay brewing about how cooperative so-
called "violent play" is. The kids have to agree on what universe to
be in (knights or star wars or something else), what kinds of weapons
are OK, who is on what side, what the parameters of play are. Play is
regularly interrupted while the kids sort out issues like whether
Luke can suddenly decide to be a bad guy, or what happens when
someone gets "killed." An enormous amount of cooperation goes on in
supposedly "violent" play.
It's like those studies, too, that find that kids engage in more
"aggressive" play after they watch certain movies. That doesn't mean
that kids are being aggressive toward each other; it means that they
are engaging in imaginative play with aggression, fighting, or
violence as elements of _pretend_.
Su
Cameron Parham
Yes, I think exploring these issues vicariously can be part of growing as a person; I was not prepared for a cartoon called Superjail, though...one example of a pretty hideous sceen involved a prisoner who was eating worms. Another prisoner made a sexy-sounding and also challenging comment like"I got you a worm right here, my penis" then the first man was shown with blood spraying on his face and a pulled-off penis disappearing into his mouth. This seems to me a little over the edge, and I do wonder if it is harmful to watch. I am intersted in the theory that exposure to frequent stimuli or very intense stimuli may lay down neural pathways in the brain that are hard to be free of later.
----- Original Message ----
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:38:39 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed
----- Original Message ----
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:38:39 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed
On May 15, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Deb Lewis wrote:
> You're reacting to
> what you suppose is a kind of warped psychology behind the
> production of the
> movies.
Someone on another list recently said "Firefighters are often
pyromanics." Someone else pointed out that isn't true, though what is
true is that pyromaniacs often become firefighters. They sound the
same but they aren't.
Dark, depressed people who make films will probably make dark films.
But, like the pyromaniac example, while dark people often make dark
movies, dark movies are not always made by dark people.
It can be *fun* to play around with ideas that you have no interest
in exploring in real life! For many people, creating or watching
them can be cathartic -- and fun :-)
I have no desire to kill people with swords or stake vampires but I
loved Xena and Buffy :-) While I steer clear of present day violent
movies that portray real consequences and raw emotions (just my
personal preference) I loved Kill Bill and 300 and Alien.
While being drawn to dark emotions can be a *symptom* of depression,
watching dark things -- or even dressing all in black -- doesn't
cause depression in someone who is happy.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cameron Parham
I think you too are responding out of a lot of prior beliefs. You really have no idea how much autonomy my son has, or how our home works. I think that you made too fast a judgement of me. The reason I didn't include the name of the most disturbing show was that the particular name of the show, and whether you or someone else could tell me they like it, was not the central question. The central question is: could a child ever wish for us to set limits, and how should we respond? (I told him it felt that was happening.) The whole story about the TV show was only for illustration. That is hardly a hysterical situation or a need to 'calm down.' I feel like this is a forum where I can express my sadness about things and I certainly never devalued the people who make or watch the shows. I do hope to raise kids who are able to understand their own feeling and determine how they feel about things, and I actually believe that can be modeled without giving the impression that people
who think or feel differently are bad.
However, since you asked, the show was a pilot on Adult Swim called Superjail. Please see my description of penis eating in the other email I sent just before this. Thanks nonetheless for your energetic answer and the time that you put into it. I just hope that this makes my question more clear.
----- Original Message ----
From: Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...>
To: unschoolingbasics <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:13:46 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed
***But last night there was a reason he watched several hours
with me nearby.***
What was the reason?
I watch movies with Dylan but I watch because we enjoy the same kinds of
movies and because I enjoy being with him and hearing his opinions.
***The shows seemed to me...hideous. I choose that word very
carefully. They were to me violent, bleak, hopeless and soul-numbing. They
filled me with sorrow for their makers and for their audience, which I was
so
sorry to find included my son. I am not naive; I am 46, have been through
much
in life and I work in an ER. I am not that easily shocked. I doubt that my
feelings were unreasonable. I shared my sorrow with him. Our discussion went
on
for a while, but no agreement could be reached.***
I wonder if you'd be willing to tell us what the shows were, or why you
didn't tell us what they were?
You chose your words carefully but could part of the reason you didn't tell
us what the shows were be that you didn't want to have to defend your
carefully chosen words if someone here said, "I watch that!" or, "my kids
watch that!"?
Being "filled with sorrow" for people who made a movie you found hideous
seems extreme. That's a really big judgment about a couple hundred people
(or however many worked on that film) you don't know anything about. And
the audience? That may be thousands of people you're assuming have such
poor judgment and character they need you to feel sorry for them.
You wrote, "The shows seemed to me... hideous"... "They were to me
violent...They filled me with sorrow..."
Those movies weren't about you or your experiences. You're reacting to
what you suppose is a kind of warped psychology behind the production of the
movies. You're the one with the problem, not your son, and you're working
really hard at trying to make him share your problem. Your feelings while
watching the movies are not universal. What you're doing is like a school
kid trying to make her friends hate a person she hates. You'll feel better
about yourself if you can get someone else to agree with you.
Your son does not have to share your feelings or opinions to be a good
person. He can make different choices and enjoy different things and still
be a smart and thoughtful person.
This is something I think it's hard for us to wrap our mind around. Our
relationship with our kids is like no other relationship. We know them from
the moment they're born. We come to know what every cry means, what every
look means and we think we know everything about them. But that changes,
and NEEDS to change. Our kids are entitled to their own thoughts and ideas,
their own preferences. They have a right to be themselves. We do not have
a right to be inside their heads deciding what they like and what they
value.
You wrote, ..."They were to me violent..."
My kid gets cranky when people say a movie is violent. The movie doesn't go
after anyone and bludgeon them. The movie doesn't shoot at people. The
movie doesn't slap anyone around or spank babies. Movies aren't violent.
There might be depictions of violence in a movie but a movie is not
committing violence against anyone.
***He at first thought that because I feared that these shows, seen so
frequently, could
harm him, that I lacked trust in him. ***
I think he's absolutely right.
***I went over again my belief that frequent exposure to anything will begin
to influence almost anybody. He began to
say.."Maybe you shouldn't allow this."***
Lot's of parents convince their kids that they can't trust their own
judgment. You can do that too but that kind of parenting isn't compatible
with unschooling. You get to choose which thing you want more.
I think *you* will harm him more by not trusting him, by believing and
conveying there's something wrong with his judgment and character because he
likes what you don't like, and by relentlessly judging and devaluing his
choices than he would be harmed by a lifetime of the most graphically
gruesome media.
***This feeling is very concerning to me, like my intuition is
telling me that he wants me to forbid these shows.***
The way your intuition told you that people who make or watch movies you
don't like must have something wrong with them? <g>
I think it's less intuition than it is the same old parenting messages that
people have been exchanging for years. That "they need limits" stuff many
of us have heard all our lives, in part to justify the choices our parents
made and in part to have an excuse to not think very much about why we
(parents and adults in general) get away with such damn poor behavior toward
children.
Sometimes when men hit their wives they say "she was asking for it."
Sometimes when men justify forcing a woman to have sex they say "she said no
but she meant yes." There is the potential for real harm in supposing we
know more about what another person wants and needs than they themselves
know.
First, I think you should calm down. What do you think will happen to him
if he watches movies? Would it help you to know that other unschooling
kids watch these kinds of movies and have for a long time and are still kind
to animals and old ladies and can do their own laundry?
My kid saw Starship Troopers when he seven or eight. I thought it might be
upsetting for him because he really loves bugs and I thought all that bug
splatting would bother him. I told him a little about the movie and he
wanted to see it. We rented it, he loved it, it didn't trouble him at all.
Well before he was thirteen he watched Pulp Fiction, Kill Bill and sequel,
other Quentin Tarantino movies, horror movies of all kinds, Lucio Fulci
movies, if you know that director (fond of zombies and gouging eyeballs out
and other long sequences of graphic pokings and slashings and beheadings).
Tell me what your kid watched the night you watched with him. Maybe I've
seen it. Maybe my son has seen it. We might be able to tell you all kinds
of wonderful things that came from our watching. <g>
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
who think or feel differently are bad.
However, since you asked, the show was a pilot on Adult Swim called Superjail. Please see my description of penis eating in the other email I sent just before this. Thanks nonetheless for your energetic answer and the time that you put into it. I just hope that this makes my question more clear.
----- Original Message ----
From: Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...>
To: unschoolingbasics <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:13:46 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed
***But last night there was a reason he watched several hours
with me nearby.***
What was the reason?
I watch movies with Dylan but I watch because we enjoy the same kinds of
movies and because I enjoy being with him and hearing his opinions.
***The shows seemed to me...hideous. I choose that word very
carefully. They were to me violent, bleak, hopeless and soul-numbing. They
filled me with sorrow for their makers and for their audience, which I was
so
sorry to find included my son. I am not naive; I am 46, have been through
much
in life and I work in an ER. I am not that easily shocked. I doubt that my
feelings were unreasonable. I shared my sorrow with him. Our discussion went
on
for a while, but no agreement could be reached.***
I wonder if you'd be willing to tell us what the shows were, or why you
didn't tell us what they were?
You chose your words carefully but could part of the reason you didn't tell
us what the shows were be that you didn't want to have to defend your
carefully chosen words if someone here said, "I watch that!" or, "my kids
watch that!"?
Being "filled with sorrow" for people who made a movie you found hideous
seems extreme. That's a really big judgment about a couple hundred people
(or however many worked on that film) you don't know anything about. And
the audience? That may be thousands of people you're assuming have such
poor judgment and character they need you to feel sorry for them.
You wrote, "The shows seemed to me... hideous"... "They were to me
violent...They filled me with sorrow..."
Those movies weren't about you or your experiences. You're reacting to
what you suppose is a kind of warped psychology behind the production of the
movies. You're the one with the problem, not your son, and you're working
really hard at trying to make him share your problem. Your feelings while
watching the movies are not universal. What you're doing is like a school
kid trying to make her friends hate a person she hates. You'll feel better
about yourself if you can get someone else to agree with you.
Your son does not have to share your feelings or opinions to be a good
person. He can make different choices and enjoy different things and still
be a smart and thoughtful person.
This is something I think it's hard for us to wrap our mind around. Our
relationship with our kids is like no other relationship. We know them from
the moment they're born. We come to know what every cry means, what every
look means and we think we know everything about them. But that changes,
and NEEDS to change. Our kids are entitled to their own thoughts and ideas,
their own preferences. They have a right to be themselves. We do not have
a right to be inside their heads deciding what they like and what they
value.
You wrote, ..."They were to me violent..."
My kid gets cranky when people say a movie is violent. The movie doesn't go
after anyone and bludgeon them. The movie doesn't shoot at people. The
movie doesn't slap anyone around or spank babies. Movies aren't violent.
There might be depictions of violence in a movie but a movie is not
committing violence against anyone.
***He at first thought that because I feared that these shows, seen so
frequently, could
harm him, that I lacked trust in him. ***
I think he's absolutely right.
***I went over again my belief that frequent exposure to anything will begin
to influence almost anybody. He began to
say.."Maybe you shouldn't allow this."***
Lot's of parents convince their kids that they can't trust their own
judgment. You can do that too but that kind of parenting isn't compatible
with unschooling. You get to choose which thing you want more.
I think *you* will harm him more by not trusting him, by believing and
conveying there's something wrong with his judgment and character because he
likes what you don't like, and by relentlessly judging and devaluing his
choices than he would be harmed by a lifetime of the most graphically
gruesome media.
***This feeling is very concerning to me, like my intuition is
telling me that he wants me to forbid these shows.***
The way your intuition told you that people who make or watch movies you
don't like must have something wrong with them? <g>
I think it's less intuition than it is the same old parenting messages that
people have been exchanging for years. That "they need limits" stuff many
of us have heard all our lives, in part to justify the choices our parents
made and in part to have an excuse to not think very much about why we
(parents and adults in general) get away with such damn poor behavior toward
children.
Sometimes when men hit their wives they say "she was asking for it."
Sometimes when men justify forcing a woman to have sex they say "she said no
but she meant yes." There is the potential for real harm in supposing we
know more about what another person wants and needs than they themselves
know.
First, I think you should calm down. What do you think will happen to him
if he watches movies? Would it help you to know that other unschooling
kids watch these kinds of movies and have for a long time and are still kind
to animals and old ladies and can do their own laundry?
My kid saw Starship Troopers when he seven or eight. I thought it might be
upsetting for him because he really loves bugs and I thought all that bug
splatting would bother him. I told him a little about the movie and he
wanted to see it. We rented it, he loved it, it didn't trouble him at all.
Well before he was thirteen he watched Pulp Fiction, Kill Bill and sequel,
other Quentin Tarantino movies, horror movies of all kinds, Lucio Fulci
movies, if you know that director (fond of zombies and gouging eyeballs out
and other long sequences of graphic pokings and slashings and beheadings).
Tell me what your kid watched the night you watched with him. Maybe I've
seen it. Maybe my son has seen it. We might be able to tell you all kinds
of wonderful things that came from our watching. <g>
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: acsp2205@...
Yes, I think exploring these issues vicariously can be part of
growing as a
person; I was not prepared for a cartoon called Superjail, though...one
example
of a pretty hideous sceen involved a prisoner who was eating worms.
Another
prisoner made a sexy-sounding and also challenging comment like"I got
you a worm
right here, my penis" then the first man was shown with blood spraying
on his
face and a pulled-off penis disappearing into his mouth. This seems to
me a
little over the edge, and I do wonder if it is harmful to watch. I am
intersted
in the theory that exposure to frequent stimuli or very intense stimuli
may lay
down neural pathways in the brain that are hard to be free of later.
-=-=-=-
I *JUST* watched this with Duncan and and a friend. Certainly led to a
LOT of discussion! <bwg>
Duncan said it's being aired to get reactions to see whether they will
be making a series out of it. You can vote.
I wasn't impressed. Duncan said he would like to see it be a regular
show.
I just called the boys down and asked Duncan what he thought about your
above paragraph. He said, "I'm not stupid." <BWG>
They just think it's funny. They really are smarter than most adults
give them credit for.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: acsp2205@...
Yes, I think exploring these issues vicariously can be part of
growing as a
person; I was not prepared for a cartoon called Superjail, though...one
example
of a pretty hideous sceen involved a prisoner who was eating worms.
Another
prisoner made a sexy-sounding and also challenging comment like"I got
you a worm
right here, my penis" then the first man was shown with blood spraying
on his
face and a pulled-off penis disappearing into his mouth. This seems to
me a
little over the edge, and I do wonder if it is harmful to watch. I am
intersted
in the theory that exposure to frequent stimuli or very intense stimuli
may lay
down neural pathways in the brain that are hard to be free of later.
-=-=-=-
I *JUST* watched this with Duncan and and a friend. Certainly led to a
LOT of discussion! <bwg>
Duncan said it's being aired to get reactions to see whether they will
be making a series out of it. You can vote.
I wasn't impressed. Duncan said he would like to see it be a regular
show.
I just called the boys down and asked Duncan what he thought about your
above paragraph. He said, "I'm not stupid." <BWG>
They just think it's funny. They really are smarter than most adults
give them credit for.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Cameron Parham
<acsp2205@...> wrote:
now. It sounds like a wonderful piece of grotesque humor. It also
sounds more benign to me than many books I was required to read in
school - especially high school. Kafka, Dostoevsky, Faulkner, Hugo,
Camus... Eliot's poetry is pretty dark in places, too. I've had lines
from "The Hollow Men" floating around my head for days. Yikes. Maybe I
should stay up for South Park to shift gears.
variable and ignores others. If your son is getting "frequent and
intense" feedback from you that you don't trust him, that's going to
be hard for him to be free of later. That's something I see a lot with
my stepson. The frequent messages of guilt and victimization that he
recieved from the adults in his previous life have far more effect on
him than any movie or show or game.
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
<acsp2205@...> wrote:
>I was not prepared for a cartoon called Superjail, though...Was the cartoon something y'all rented? I'm interested in seeing that,
now. It sounds like a wonderful piece of grotesque humor. It also
sounds more benign to me than many books I was required to read in
school - especially high school. Kafka, Dostoevsky, Faulkner, Hugo,
Camus... Eliot's poetry is pretty dark in places, too. I've had lines
from "The Hollow Men" floating around my head for days. Yikes. Maybe I
should stay up for South Park to shift gears.
>I am intersted in the theory that exposure to frequent stimuli orThe trouble with that kind of theory is it focuses on a single
>very intense stimuli may lay down neural pathways in the brain that
>are hard to be free of later.
variable and ignores others. If your son is getting "frequent and
intense" feedback from you that you don't trust him, that's going to
be hard for him to be free of later. That's something I see a lot with
my stepson. The frequent messages of guilt and victimization that he
recieved from the adults in his previous life have far more effect on
him than any movie or show or game.
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
Schuyler
Just looking on youtube there are some Superjail episodes, I didn't see the
worm/penis one. The only one I could find was a jail escapee who puts a
bunny down his pants.
It looks very much like Beavis and Butthead to me. My brother is one of the
creators of Beavis and Butthead. Perfectly reasonable fellow. A little
quiet, a little uptight. But just a guy. Not particularly prone to strange
laughter and dancing. Very cool, actually. Extremely cool. Simon really
likes Beavis and Butthead. Linnaea didn't like it after seeing an episode
were they ate a baby chicken. But she and Simon talked it over, and she no
longer sees it as something upsetting.
It isn't a snuff film, it's a somewhat disgusting cartoon. I can't watch a
lot of South Park, the references often get too sexual for my comfort level,
but David (dh) absolutely loves it. His face goes bright pink, he laughs so
hard, and is laughter makes it worth sitting through for me, sometimes. And
David isn't violent or inappropriately sexual. It hasn't twisted his brain
in anyway that it wasn't twisted already.
What is the line from Mystery Science Theatre 3000, "Repeat to yourself It's
just a show, I should really just relax." <grin>.
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
worm/penis one. The only one I could find was a jail escapee who puts a
bunny down his pants.
It looks very much like Beavis and Butthead to me. My brother is one of the
creators of Beavis and Butthead. Perfectly reasonable fellow. A little
quiet, a little uptight. But just a guy. Not particularly prone to strange
laughter and dancing. Very cool, actually. Extremely cool. Simon really
likes Beavis and Butthead. Linnaea didn't like it after seeing an episode
were they ate a baby chicken. But she and Simon talked it over, and she no
longer sees it as something upsetting.
It isn't a snuff film, it's a somewhat disgusting cartoon. I can't watch a
lot of South Park, the references often get too sexual for my comfort level,
but David (dh) absolutely loves it. His face goes bright pink, he laughs so
hard, and is laughter makes it worth sitting through for me, sometimes. And
David isn't violent or inappropriately sexual. It hasn't twisted his brain
in anyway that it wasn't twisted already.
What is the line from Mystery Science Theatre 3000, "Repeat to yourself It's
just a show, I should really just relax." <grin>.
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meredith" <meredith@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 7:09 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed
> --- In [email protected], Cameron Parham
> <acsp2205@...> wrote:
>>I was not prepared for a cartoon called Superjail, though...
>
> Was the cartoon something y'all rented? I'm interested in seeing that,
> now. It sounds like a wonderful piece of grotesque humor. It also
> sounds more benign to me than many books I was required to read in
> school - especially high school. Kafka, Dostoevsky, Faulkner, Hugo,
> Camus... Eliot's poetry is pretty dark in places, too. I've had lines
> from "The Hollow Men" floating around my head for days. Yikes. Maybe I
> should stay up for South Park to shift gears.
>
>>I am intersted in the theory that exposure to frequent stimuli or
>>very intense stimuli may lay down neural pathways in the brain that
>>are hard to be free of later.
>
> The trouble with that kind of theory is it focuses on a single
> variable and ignores others. If your son is getting "frequent and
> intense" feedback from you that you don't trust him, that's going to
> be hard for him to be free of later. That's something I see a lot with
> my stepson. The frequent messages of guilt and victimization that he
> recieved from the adults in his previous life have far more effect on
> him than any movie or show or game.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Fetteroll
On May 15, 2007, at 1:07 PM, Cameron Parham wrote:
to and can trust, kids *will* look to other things and other people
to connect to.
It's helpful to be aware that all studies are done on conventionally
parented schooled kids. Those two *do* have a significant influence
on kids which those doing the studies ignore. (Well, they have to
ignore the influence since there isn't a significant pool of
unschooled, mindfully parented kids to compare them to!)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am intersted in the theory that exposure to frequent stimuli orIn the absence of a close family and adult the child feel connected
> very intense stimuli may lay down neural pathways in the brain that
> are hard to be free of later.
to and can trust, kids *will* look to other things and other people
to connect to.
It's helpful to be aware that all studies are done on conventionally
parented schooled kids. Those two *do* have a significant influence
on kids which those doing the studies ignore. (Well, they have to
ignore the influence since there isn't a significant pool of
unschooled, mindfully parented kids to compare them to!)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cameron Parham
I am mystified why my query whether a child could actually seek limits, and how to handle that has escalated into an apparent suggestion that I am giving my son "frequent and intense feedback that I don't trust him" or that I am simplistic enough to suppose that one variable (exposure to negative stimuli) is all that determines brain structure. I think my question had great validity, and if it were not for the creative response by one member who suggested that I add things to our lives when an activity dismays me (rather than just trying to remove the other activity) I would really wonder if I am 'safe' to ask questions here. If you would enjoy Superjail, that's fine with me. I feel comfortable with you liking it and with me feeling it is sad. Do you feel similarly comfortable with others' viewpoints? You may, but that didn't come through here. Cameron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie
I think that you raise a valid question- Remember some people will
attack but in it all you will find words of wisdom that can help
your situation. I do not think some people understand what it is
like (in my case at least) to jump into unschooling when it has not
been a life path before. I think we need to discuss these things to
either get suggestions or to vent or to validate what we do.
Sometimes it is a difference of how we view things. Things that in
conventional culture are supposed to be "bad" or "not good for
children" when we examine why we do not think something is
worthwhile we may find that to someone it does have value and maybe
you can find it worthwhile too.
--- In [email protected], Cameron Parham
<acsp2205@...> wrote:
suggestion that I am giving my son "frequent and intense feedback
that I don't trust him" or that I am simplistic enough to suppose
that one variable (exposure to negative stimuli) is all that
determines brain structure. I think my question had great validity,
and if it were not for the creative response by one member who
suggested that I add things to our lives when an activity dismays me
(rather than just trying to remove the other activity) I would
really wonder if I am 'safe' to ask questions here. If you would
enjoy Superjail, that's fine with me. I feel comfortable with you
liking it and with me feeling it is sad. Do you feel similarly
comfortable with others' viewpoints? You may, but that didn't come
through here. Cameron
attack but in it all you will find words of wisdom that can help
your situation. I do not think some people understand what it is
like (in my case at least) to jump into unschooling when it has not
been a life path before. I think we need to discuss these things to
either get suggestions or to vent or to validate what we do.
Sometimes it is a difference of how we view things. Things that in
conventional culture are supposed to be "bad" or "not good for
children" when we examine why we do not think something is
worthwhile we may find that to someone it does have value and maybe
you can find it worthwhile too.
--- In [email protected], Cameron Parham
<acsp2205@...> wrote:
>limits, and how to handle that has escalated into an apparent
> I am mystified why my query whether a child could actually seek
suggestion that I am giving my son "frequent and intense feedback
that I don't trust him" or that I am simplistic enough to suppose
that one variable (exposure to negative stimuli) is all that
determines brain structure. I think my question had great validity,
and if it were not for the creative response by one member who
suggested that I add things to our lives when an activity dismays me
(rather than just trying to remove the other activity) I would
really wonder if I am 'safe' to ask questions here. If you would
enjoy Superjail, that's fine with me. I feel comfortable with you
liking it and with me feeling it is sad. Do you feel similarly
comfortable with others' viewpoints? You may, but that didn't come
through here. Cameron
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: acsp2205@...
I am mystified why my query whether a child could actually seek
limits, and how
to handle that has escalated into an apparent suggestion that I am
giving my son
"frequent and intense feedback that I don't trust him" or that I am
simplistic
enough to suppose that one variable (exposure to negative stimuli) is
all that
determines brain structure.
-=-=-=-=-
Because it's not about whether a child would seek limits---it's *WHY*
he would.
=-=-=-=-=
I think my question had great validity, and if it
were not for the creative response by one member who suggested that I
add things
to our lives when an activity dismays me (rather than just trying to
remove the
other activity)
-=-=-=-=-=
And generally, that's advice we give a LOT. Choices regarding food and
"chores" and tv and activities---more is better. 'Cause they'll choose
the best option they think they have.
--=-=-=-=-
I would really wonder if I am 'safe' to ask questions here.
-=-=-=-=-=-
It might help to look at the answers as other ways to loook at the
question. I understand what you were asking, but that's not the
question that will get you to your answer! <g> WHY is he asking for
limits? What would cause someone (anyone?) to seek limits?
-=-=-=-
If you would enjoy Superjail, that's fine with me.
-=-=-=-=-
Yeah--- I'll need to see a few more episodes before I can say whether
I'd enjoy it. But there are several shows I'm not thrilled with (Aqua
Teen Hunger Force is pretty awful! <g>), but I look at it as "typical"
teenage boy grossness. It just doesn't appeal to me. I'm guessing
Superjail (if it makes it) won't appeal to me either. I can take South
Park in small doses. <g>
-=-=-=-=-
I feel comfortable with you liking it and with me feeling it is sad.
-=-=-=-=-
I have no problem with your feeling sad (that didn't come out right!
<G> I don't want *you* sad either!)---but THAT could be the feeling
that your son is getting from you. He's uncomfortable watching
something that you deem sad, so *although he's drawn to it*, he doesn't
want to hurt you or make you sad, so he asks that you stop him from
watching it. Does making *him* feel that way leave you equally needing
your limits extended?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: acsp2205@...
I am mystified why my query whether a child could actually seek
limits, and how
to handle that has escalated into an apparent suggestion that I am
giving my son
"frequent and intense feedback that I don't trust him" or that I am
simplistic
enough to suppose that one variable (exposure to negative stimuli) is
all that
determines brain structure.
-=-=-=-=-
Because it's not about whether a child would seek limits---it's *WHY*
he would.
=-=-=-=-=
I think my question had great validity, and if it
were not for the creative response by one member who suggested that I
add things
to our lives when an activity dismays me (rather than just trying to
remove the
other activity)
-=-=-=-=-=
And generally, that's advice we give a LOT. Choices regarding food and
"chores" and tv and activities---more is better. 'Cause they'll choose
the best option they think they have.
--=-=-=-=-
I would really wonder if I am 'safe' to ask questions here.
-=-=-=-=-=-
It might help to look at the answers as other ways to loook at the
question. I understand what you were asking, but that's not the
question that will get you to your answer! <g> WHY is he asking for
limits? What would cause someone (anyone?) to seek limits?
-=-=-=-
If you would enjoy Superjail, that's fine with me.
-=-=-=-=-
Yeah--- I'll need to see a few more episodes before I can say whether
I'd enjoy it. But there are several shows I'm not thrilled with (Aqua
Teen Hunger Force is pretty awful! <g>), but I look at it as "typical"
teenage boy grossness. It just doesn't appeal to me. I'm guessing
Superjail (if it makes it) won't appeal to me either. I can take South
Park in small doses. <g>
-=-=-=-=-
I feel comfortable with you liking it and with me feeling it is sad.
-=-=-=-=-
I have no problem with your feeling sad (that didn't come out right!
<G> I don't want *you* sad either!)---but THAT could be the feeling
that your son is getting from you. He's uncomfortable watching
something that you deem sad, so *although he's drawn to it*, he doesn't
want to hurt you or make you sad, so he asks that you stop him from
watching it. Does making *him* feel that way leave you equally needing
your limits extended?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: acsp2205@...
The reason I didn't include the name of the most
disturbing show was that the particular name of the show, and whether
you or
someone else could tell me they like it, was not the central question.
-=-=-=
Yes, but it can make a difference how we answer. If the "disturbing"
show were Ed, Edd & Eddy or SpongeBob, we'd have some idea of where
you're coming from (both have been described here before as disturbing!
<g>), and we'd come from a different angle! <g>
-=-=-=-=-
The central question is: could a child ever wish for us to set limits,
and how
should we respond? (I told him it felt that was happening.)
-=-=-=-=-
See, *I* think the central question is : WHY would a child ever wish
for us to set limits?
-=-=-=-=-=-
The whole story about the TV show was only for illustration. That is
hardly a hysterical
situation or a need to 'calm down.' I feel like this is a forum where I
can
express my sadness about things and I certainly never devalued the
people who
make or watch the shows.
-=-=-=-
I think *someone* did express sadness for the poor souls that produce
such a show. Maybe not you, but posts run together when you read as
many as some of us read (I'm on over 40 elists!).
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: acsp2205@...
The reason I didn't include the name of the most
disturbing show was that the particular name of the show, and whether
you or
someone else could tell me they like it, was not the central question.
-=-=-=
Yes, but it can make a difference how we answer. If the "disturbing"
show were Ed, Edd & Eddy or SpongeBob, we'd have some idea of where
you're coming from (both have been described here before as disturbing!
<g>), and we'd come from a different angle! <g>
-=-=-=-=-
The central question is: could a child ever wish for us to set limits,
and how
should we respond? (I told him it felt that was happening.)
-=-=-=-=-
See, *I* think the central question is : WHY would a child ever wish
for us to set limits?
-=-=-=-=-=-
The whole story about the TV show was only for illustration. That is
hardly a hysterical
situation or a need to 'calm down.' I feel like this is a forum where I
can
express my sadness about things and I certainly never devalued the
people who
make or watch the shows.
-=-=-=-
I think *someone* did express sadness for the poor souls that produce
such a show. Maybe not you, but posts run together when you read as
many as some of us read (I'm on over 40 elists!).
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: s.waynforth@...
It looks very much like Beavis and Butthead to me. My brother is one of
the
creators of Beavis and Butthead. Perfectly reasonable fellow.
-=-=-=-
Huh UH!!! COOOL! I'll tell Cameron when he gets back! I bet he'll want
to talk with you about your brother in September!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: s.waynforth@...
It looks very much like Beavis and Butthead to me. My brother is one of
the
creators of Beavis and Butthead. Perfectly reasonable fellow.
-=-=-=-
Huh UH!!! COOOL! I'll tell Cameron when he gets back! I bet he'll want
to talk with you about your brother in September!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Schuyler
Last night Simon, Linnaea and I caught Penn and Teller's Bullshit for the
first time. It was very funny, Simon and Linnaea loved it. But, it was
filled with swear words and had a section with exotic dancers in it. And it
was abusive of some of the talking heads they invited. We didn't talk about
that though, instead we talked about the creative swearing that happened and
we laughed at the bit where Penn pokes himself in the eye with a fork and
they want to watch the next time it's on. And instead of making them wait, I
went to youtube and found more of Penn and Teller. Them preforming magic
instead of stuff from Bullshit, and it is funny and irreverent and good.
Maybe you could do that, instead of having your son just finding things in
the middle of the night you could get on youtube and watch Beavis and
Butthead episodes, or even some Ren and Stimpy stuff (the whole series is on
DVD now) or look for the Adult SWIM stuff, a lot of it is on youtube. I
watched one the other day called Little Hitler which I thought was pretty
funny. And maybe if you sat with him, watching and sharing, you could see
what he enjoys about it and he would feel more sure of his choices, his
taste in things. Actually doing a quick search for Superjail I found that it
was created by Augenblick Studios which has a webpage at
augenblickstudios.com. Maybe you could look at some of the stuff there.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
first time. It was very funny, Simon and Linnaea loved it. But, it was
filled with swear words and had a section with exotic dancers in it. And it
was abusive of some of the talking heads they invited. We didn't talk about
that though, instead we talked about the creative swearing that happened and
we laughed at the bit where Penn pokes himself in the eye with a fork and
they want to watch the next time it's on. And instead of making them wait, I
went to youtube and found more of Penn and Teller. Them preforming magic
instead of stuff from Bullshit, and it is funny and irreverent and good.
Maybe you could do that, instead of having your son just finding things in
the middle of the night you could get on youtube and watch Beavis and
Butthead episodes, or even some Ren and Stimpy stuff (the whole series is on
DVD now) or look for the Adult SWIM stuff, a lot of it is on youtube. I
watched one the other day called Little Hitler which I thought was pretty
funny. And maybe if you sat with him, watching and sharing, you could see
what he enjoys about it and he would feel more sure of his choices, his
taste in things. Actually doing a quick search for Superjail I found that it
was created by Augenblick Studios which has a webpage at
augenblickstudios.com. Maybe you could look at some of the stuff there.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cameron Parham" <acsp2205@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed
> Yes, I think exploring these issues vicariously can be part of growing as
> a person; I was not prepared for a cartoon called Superjail, though...one
> example of a pretty hideous sceen involved a prisoner who was eating
> worms. Another prisoner made a sexy-sounding and also challenging comment
> like"I got you a worm right here, my penis" then the first man was shown
> with blood spraying on his face and a pulled-off penis disappearing into
> his mouth. This seems to me a little over the edge, and I do wonder if it
> is harmful to watch. I am intersted in the theory that exposure to
> frequent stimuli or very intense stimuli may lay down neural pathways in
> the brain that are hard to be free of later.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:38:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed
>
> On May 15, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Deb Lewis wrote:
>
>> You're reacting to
>> what you suppose is a kind of warped psychology behind the
>> production of the
>> movies.
>
> Someone on another list recently said "Firefighters are often
> pyromanics." Someone else pointed out that isn't true, though what is
> true is that pyromaniacs often become firefighters. They sound the
> same but they aren't.
>
> Dark, depressed people who make films will probably make dark films.
> But, like the pyromaniac example, while dark people often make dark
> movies, dark movies are not always made by dark people.
>
> It can be *fun* to play around with ideas that you have no interest
> in exploring in real life! For many people, creating or watching
> them can be cathartic -- and fun :-)
>
> I have no desire to kill people with swords or stake vampires but I
> loved Xena and Buffy :-) While I steer clear of present day violent
> movies that portray real consequences and raw emotions (just my
> personal preference) I loved Kill Bill and 300 and Alien.
>
> While being drawn to dark emotions can be a *symptom* of depression,
> watching dark things -- or even dressing all in black -- doesn't
> cause depression in someone who is happy.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Schuyler
I don't know what I can say about Sam and Beavis and Butthead. He did some
of the voices, which makes the show that much more fun to watch--"was that
Sam, no..." But otherwise.... I'll be happy to try to have something
interesting to say though.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
of the voices, which makes the show that much more fun to watch--"was that
Sam, no..." But otherwise.... I'll be happy to try to have something
interesting to say though.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <kbcdlovejo@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: s.waynforth@...
>
> It looks very much like Beavis and Butthead to me. My brother is one of
> the
> creators of Beavis and Butthead. Perfectly reasonable fellow.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> Huh UH!!! COOOL! I'll tell Cameron when he gets back! I bet he'll want
> to talk with you about your brother in September!
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
> from AOL at AOL.com.
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Deb Lewis
***I certainly never devalued the people who
make or watch the shows.***
You wrote:
***The shows seemed to me...hideous. I choose that word very
carefully. They were to me violent, bleak, hopeless and soul-numbing. They
filled me with sorrow for their makers and for their audience, which I was
so
sorry to find included my son.***
That's a value judgment if you felt sorry for the makers and viewers and
were sorry one of the viewers was your son.
Making value judgments isn't a crime.
But making value judgments about something your kid likes can negatively
affect your relationship with him or make him feel bad about himself for
making choices you don't like. Does that make sense to you?
I don't like Westerns, usually. (with some exceptions like "The Good, the
Bad and the Ugly," "A Fistful of Dollars" and "For a Few Dollars More")
(And "Once Upon a Time in the West" and "The Great Silence",,, but now I'm
getting sidetracked...)
I don't like westerns, usually, but I can see the difference between a
thing not being to my liking and a thing just being bad. Sometimes when a
person doesn't like a movie they say "That was a bad movie." I've seen
some bad movies. I've seen movies I didn't like. But the two things are
not necessarily synonymous. (Sometimes I don't like them *because* they're
bad, but sometimes I just don't like them.)
If I don't like something my kid is watching or my husband is watching I
don't say, "That's bad and I feel sorry for the people who made it and for
the people who like to watch it." That would be a value judgment of my
son or my dh's choices. I might say "I don't care for that show," but I'd
be more likely to refrain from commenting and just go about doing something
I enjoy while they're doing what they enjoy. Or, if I wanted to be with
them, be quiet and take pleasure in their enjoyment of the movie.
Deb Lewis
make or watch the shows.***
You wrote:
***The shows seemed to me...hideous. I choose that word very
carefully. They were to me violent, bleak, hopeless and soul-numbing. They
filled me with sorrow for their makers and for their audience, which I was
so
sorry to find included my son.***
That's a value judgment if you felt sorry for the makers and viewers and
were sorry one of the viewers was your son.
Making value judgments isn't a crime.
But making value judgments about something your kid likes can negatively
affect your relationship with him or make him feel bad about himself for
making choices you don't like. Does that make sense to you?
I don't like Westerns, usually. (with some exceptions like "The Good, the
Bad and the Ugly," "A Fistful of Dollars" and "For a Few Dollars More")
(And "Once Upon a Time in the West" and "The Great Silence",,, but now I'm
getting sidetracked...)
I don't like westerns, usually, but I can see the difference between a
thing not being to my liking and a thing just being bad. Sometimes when a
person doesn't like a movie they say "That was a bad movie." I've seen
some bad movies. I've seen movies I didn't like. But the two things are
not necessarily synonymous. (Sometimes I don't like them *because* they're
bad, but sometimes I just don't like them.)
If I don't like something my kid is watching or my husband is watching I
don't say, "That's bad and I feel sorry for the people who made it and for
the people who like to watch it." That would be a value judgment of my
son or my dh's choices. I might say "I don't care for that show," but I'd
be more likely to refrain from commenting and just go about doing something
I enjoy while they're doing what they enjoy. Or, if I wanted to be with
them, be quiet and take pleasure in their enjoyment of the movie.
Deb Lewis
Deb Lewis
****I am mystified why my query whether a child could actually seek limits,
and how
to handle that has escalated into an apparent suggestion that I am giving my
son
"frequent and intense feedback that I don't trust him"***
You said your dialog with your son was "ongoing." You said you've expressed
your "sorrow" to him over the shows he watches. You indicated that you've
tried to convince him to not watch the programs you don't like. You said he
thought you didn't trust him after expressing your fear that shows seen so
frequently could harm him. You said you "went over again" your belief that
frequent exposure would influence "almost anyone" over time.
I don't think anything has "escalated" here. We're just discussing the
ideas you brought to the list.
***I would really wonder if I am 'safe' to ask questions here. ***
"Safe" is an odd choice of words. What do you think can happen to you if
people here disagree with you? Really, no one is going to come to your
house and beat you up. <g>
You can make whatever choices you want to make in your parenting. If you
want to believe that your son wants you to limit him to only those things
you can appreciate, you can do that. If you want to discuss it on this
list then it will be pointed out to you how that kind of parenting choice is
incompatible with unschooling.
You said the shows filled you with sorrow, you're worried that you're not
safe on an unschooling list, you think the discussion has escalated. Your
word choices seem exaggerated and I wonder if you really are thinking so
differently from the folks who are in this discussion with you that none of
this will make sense to you. I get the feeling that you really just want
to be agreed with.
I don't think healthy people want others to limit their choices. I think
if a person is asking for limits it's because they don't trust their own
judgment and placing limits on them will only exacerbate the problem. Does
that answer your question? I don't think your son wants limits. I think
the reason he wants to watch those shows by himself is because he doesn't
want to hear about your "fears" and "sorrows". He just wants to enjoy his
shows. It would be really great for him if he could enjoy them with you
instead of feeling like he has to watch them alone to avoid your disapproval
and disappointment.
***If you would enjoy Superjail, that's fine with me. I feel comfortable
with you
liking it and with me feeling it is sad. Do you feel similarly comfortable
with
others' viewpoints?***
But this isn't about the other posters on the list, it's about your son. If
it's ok for other people to like Superjail and if you expect others to be ok
with your dislike of the program, what makes your son's viewpoint less
deserving of respect? Are you wanting us to make you watch Superjail? (not
that we could, but you know what I mean) Probably not any more than your
son is wanting you to make him stop.
Deb Lewis
and how
to handle that has escalated into an apparent suggestion that I am giving my
son
"frequent and intense feedback that I don't trust him"***
You said your dialog with your son was "ongoing." You said you've expressed
your "sorrow" to him over the shows he watches. You indicated that you've
tried to convince him to not watch the programs you don't like. You said he
thought you didn't trust him after expressing your fear that shows seen so
frequently could harm him. You said you "went over again" your belief that
frequent exposure would influence "almost anyone" over time.
I don't think anything has "escalated" here. We're just discussing the
ideas you brought to the list.
***I would really wonder if I am 'safe' to ask questions here. ***
"Safe" is an odd choice of words. What do you think can happen to you if
people here disagree with you? Really, no one is going to come to your
house and beat you up. <g>
You can make whatever choices you want to make in your parenting. If you
want to believe that your son wants you to limit him to only those things
you can appreciate, you can do that. If you want to discuss it on this
list then it will be pointed out to you how that kind of parenting choice is
incompatible with unschooling.
You said the shows filled you with sorrow, you're worried that you're not
safe on an unschooling list, you think the discussion has escalated. Your
word choices seem exaggerated and I wonder if you really are thinking so
differently from the folks who are in this discussion with you that none of
this will make sense to you. I get the feeling that you really just want
to be agreed with.
I don't think healthy people want others to limit their choices. I think
if a person is asking for limits it's because they don't trust their own
judgment and placing limits on them will only exacerbate the problem. Does
that answer your question? I don't think your son wants limits. I think
the reason he wants to watch those shows by himself is because he doesn't
want to hear about your "fears" and "sorrows". He just wants to enjoy his
shows. It would be really great for him if he could enjoy them with you
instead of feeling like he has to watch them alone to avoid your disapproval
and disappointment.
***If you would enjoy Superjail, that's fine with me. I feel comfortable
with you
liking it and with me feeling it is sad. Do you feel similarly comfortable
with
others' viewpoints?***
But this isn't about the other posters on the list, it's about your son. If
it's ok for other people to like Superjail and if you expect others to be ok
with your dislike of the program, what makes your son's viewpoint less
deserving of respect? Are you wanting us to make you watch Superjail? (not
that we could, but you know what I mean) Probably not any more than your
son is wanting you to make him stop.
Deb Lewis
Deb Lewis
***Is there anyone who offers advice or
a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? ***
Jan Hunt offers phone counseling for ninety dollars an hour. You can
contact her through The Natural Child Project website. There are probably
others and you might have some luck with a Google search.
But maybe you don't want unschooling advice?
If you do want unschooling advice lots of people on this list are living
peacefully and happily with teens and are willing to discuss unschooling for
free.
Deb Lewis
a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? ***
Jan Hunt offers phone counseling for ninety dollars an hour. You can
contact her through The Natural Child Project website. There are probably
others and you might have some luck with a Google search.
But maybe you don't want unschooling advice?
If you do want unschooling advice lots of people on this list are living
peacefully and happily with teens and are willing to discuss unschooling for
free.
Deb Lewis
Cameron Parham
I may look into that. I can tell you that the response from my last question was not real encouraging to me to ask much for awhile. I did get some useful things but the price (though intangible) was high. I have a friend who has this on his office wall, a quote by a 4 yo boy: "You can tell when someone loves you because your name is safe in their mouth." When I said I hoped that this was a safe forum for my questions, you said "Did you think poeple would come to you house and beat you up?" Surely you didn't mean that....I know that you realize there are many kinds of safety. I had thought that this was a place where we would all assume that we were striving to do our best. Yes, I am looking for unschooling advice. Maybe my journey is in a different place than yours. But I will certainly be careful before asking much again.
----- Original Message ----
From: Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...>
To: unschoolingbasics <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 11:12:22 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed
***Is there anyone who offers advice or
a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? ***
Jan Hunt offers phone counseling for ninety dollars an hour. You can
contact her through The Natural Child Project website. There are probably
others and you might have some luck with a Google search.
But maybe you don't want unschooling advice?
If you do want unschooling advice lots of people on this list are living
peacefully and happily with teens and are willing to discuss unschooling for
free.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message ----
From: Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...>
To: unschoolingbasics <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 11:12:22 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed
***Is there anyone who offers advice or
a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? ***
Jan Hunt offers phone counseling for ninety dollars an hour. You can
contact her through The Natural Child Project website. There are probably
others and you might have some luck with a Google search.
But maybe you don't want unschooling advice?
If you do want unschooling advice lots of people on this list are living
peacefully and happily with teens and are willing to discuss unschooling for
free.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Is there anyone who offers advice or
a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? ~~
Yes. I offer one-on-one sessions for people if they contact me
offlist. But I offer the same advice for free, right here and I let
people know that. Sometimes a one-on-one session is more personal and
creates a different dynamic that people like.
I'm not trying to make myself out to be some wise person...just a mama
that has traveled with home learners for many years that has made (and
makes) her own mistakes. My children are 17, 13,10 and 6 if that matters.
If you're interested in offlist discussion by phone or email, you can
contact me at learninginfreedom.com.
Again, the same information is available here for free.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? ~~
Yes. I offer one-on-one sessions for people if they contact me
offlist. But I offer the same advice for free, right here and I let
people know that. Sometimes a one-on-one session is more personal and
creates a different dynamic that people like.
I'm not trying to make myself out to be some wise person...just a mama
that has traveled with home learners for many years that has made (and
makes) her own mistakes. My children are 17, 13,10 and 6 if that matters.
If you're interested in offlist discussion by phone or email, you can
contact me at learninginfreedom.com.
Again, the same information is available here for free.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Lisa Heyman
Cameron,
I happen to have found your description of the cartoon repulsive and
disgusting. I thought it was sexually repugnant and perhaps could be
insulting to folks who enjoy oral sex. It's certainly doesn't sound like
anything I would find joy in sitting through. BUT that aside, I also once
thought Barbies were insulting anti feminist tools and hoped to keep them
out of my home <lol> The truth is right now we have the Barbie collection I
only dreamed of as a kid. It was when I attempted to espouse my pov to my
then 4yo dd about Barbies that I heard the rediculousness of my argument.
And as Su has so wisely pointed out about imaginative play (even of the
violent kind) has my dds learning all sorts of cooperative behavior and
creating all sorts of very 'powerful' women roles. My younger dd a few
years back pointed out that if someone were to have the dimensions of one of
these dolls they'd be in the hospital for lack of nutrition - forget that
they can't even stand up. I'm not telling you to change your dislike of the
cartoon and violent shows (I can't watch graphic violence myself) but am
suggesting that perhaps you need to shift your perspective as to others
(your sons) appreciation of something other than what you like.
You are right. People on this list don't know the extent of your
relationship with your son and can only respond to the words in your
original post. That's where additional information is useful and perhaps may
help you to discover the faulty thinking in what appears to be (sounds like)
fear from your own words about the brain synapses.
As for setting limits.the question I have is one only you can answer - is
your son really asking you to set limits for him or challenging you to act
on your fears?
One of my dd's at the age of 12 said to me (once) - oh mom - will you be a
mom and tell me what to do. I was so shocked that she used this wording.
This was in response to her having to choose between two things she really
wanted and because they were happening at the same time there was not a way
to do both (Ski race in CT and cheer competition in NY). It initially
shocked me but then recognized what she was saying was make a choice for me.
We since discussed her expression 'be a real mom' and she laughed saying it
came out of her frustration but that I in no way should be making decisions
for her like conventional moms do to their kids. My younger dd will
occasionally ask me to decide something for her.but its not about my
limiting her, its when faced with the reality of life's limits (ie money,
time, other people). What I learned from my dh is that what helps her in
those situations is when I not simply acknowledge how difficult it is to
choice between things but rather how exciting it is that she is passionate
about so much that she wants to do it all! This shift in my perspective of
what she is asking for has freed her up to feel good about her indecisveness
rather than frustrated by it.
Perhaps with your son you could find an appreciation of his explorations of
areas you are not comfortable with and share that perspective.
Lisa Heyman
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I happen to have found your description of the cartoon repulsive and
disgusting. I thought it was sexually repugnant and perhaps could be
insulting to folks who enjoy oral sex. It's certainly doesn't sound like
anything I would find joy in sitting through. BUT that aside, I also once
thought Barbies were insulting anti feminist tools and hoped to keep them
out of my home <lol> The truth is right now we have the Barbie collection I
only dreamed of as a kid. It was when I attempted to espouse my pov to my
then 4yo dd about Barbies that I heard the rediculousness of my argument.
And as Su has so wisely pointed out about imaginative play (even of the
violent kind) has my dds learning all sorts of cooperative behavior and
creating all sorts of very 'powerful' women roles. My younger dd a few
years back pointed out that if someone were to have the dimensions of one of
these dolls they'd be in the hospital for lack of nutrition - forget that
they can't even stand up. I'm not telling you to change your dislike of the
cartoon and violent shows (I can't watch graphic violence myself) but am
suggesting that perhaps you need to shift your perspective as to others
(your sons) appreciation of something other than what you like.
You are right. People on this list don't know the extent of your
relationship with your son and can only respond to the words in your
original post. That's where additional information is useful and perhaps may
help you to discover the faulty thinking in what appears to be (sounds like)
fear from your own words about the brain synapses.
As for setting limits.the question I have is one only you can answer - is
your son really asking you to set limits for him or challenging you to act
on your fears?
One of my dd's at the age of 12 said to me (once) - oh mom - will you be a
mom and tell me what to do. I was so shocked that she used this wording.
This was in response to her having to choose between two things she really
wanted and because they were happening at the same time there was not a way
to do both (Ski race in CT and cheer competition in NY). It initially
shocked me but then recognized what she was saying was make a choice for me.
We since discussed her expression 'be a real mom' and she laughed saying it
came out of her frustration but that I in no way should be making decisions
for her like conventional moms do to their kids. My younger dd will
occasionally ask me to decide something for her.but its not about my
limiting her, its when faced with the reality of life's limits (ie money,
time, other people). What I learned from my dh is that what helps her in
those situations is when I not simply acknowledge how difficult it is to
choice between things but rather how exciting it is that she is passionate
about so much that she wants to do it all! This shift in my perspective of
what she is asking for has freed her up to feel good about her indecisveness
rather than frustrated by it.
Perhaps with your son you could find an appreciation of his explorations of
areas you are not comfortable with and share that perspective.
Lisa Heyman
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----advice or a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? ~~
^^^^^^^^^
I don't know about advice but I can offer some perspective about life with
two unschooled teens, a 14 year old son and 17 year old daughter. I'd be
happy to respond to specific questions both on and off line. We've been
unschooling for almost 5 years. It's all been good!
Gail
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
^^^^^^^^^
I don't know about advice but I can offer some perspective about life with
two unschooled teens, a 14 year old son and 17 year old daughter. I'd be
happy to respond to specific questions both on and off line. We've been
unschooling for almost 5 years. It's all been good!
Gail
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debra Rossing
> 'be a real mom'A couple of years ago, I went from waist length hair to shorter than
collar length hair. I had alerted DH and DS that it was going to be
SHORT when I got back. When I got home, much cooler and lighter, DH said
he liked it and DS looked at it, pondered a moment, then said "Now you
look like a real mom" and went back to playing. Upon pondering THAT
tidbit from my son, I realized that ALL the moms of his
friends/acquaintances had short hair, I was the only mom he knew/saw
regularly that had anything approaching long hair.
Deb
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Deb Rogers
Lisa,
I want to thank you for sharing this different way of
viewing indecisiveness. My youngest is often extremely
indecisiveness - which is very foreign to my nature
and I appreciate this opportunity to try viewing it a
different way.
Blessings,
Deb
What I learned from my dh is that what helps her in
those situations is when I not simply acknowledge how
difficult it is to
choice between things but rather how exciting it is
that she is passionate
about so much that she wants to do it all! This shift
in my perspective of
what she is asking for has freed her up to feel good
about her indecisveness
rather than frustrated by it.
Lisa Heyman
"What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal." ~Albert Pine
____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
that gives answers, not web links.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
I want to thank you for sharing this different way of
viewing indecisiveness. My youngest is often extremely
indecisiveness - which is very foreign to my nature
and I appreciate this opportunity to try viewing it a
different way.
Blessings,
Deb
What I learned from my dh is that what helps her in
those situations is when I not simply acknowledge how
difficult it is to
choice between things but rather how exciting it is
that she is passionate
about so much that she wants to do it all! This shift
in my perspective of
what she is asking for has freed her up to feel good
about her indecisveness
rather than frustrated by it.
Lisa Heyman
"What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal." ~Albert Pine
____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
that gives answers, not web links.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
Fetteroll
On May 15, 2007, at 4:16 PM, Julie wrote:
up with this type of lifestyle.
For some people it does come naturally. They've always felt there was
something wrong with conventional parenting and schooling but
couldn't figure out what. (And really hard to figure out when
everyone around you is saying it's the right way!)
For most people it makes sense but they have so many mental
roadblocks that they can't seem to let go of. So while it makes sense
on paper, it doesn't seem to make sense when they look at their own
kids who aren't being sweet and cooperative the way it sounds like
unschooled kids are ;-)
I suspect what you're feeling is that few seem to understand how hard
it is to change. I would venture to say that *everyone* understand
how hard it is.
I think the biggest problem is a matter of what people need when they
start something new. When some people start on a path to change they
want to hear how hard it is for others so they can feel comforted
that it isn't just them having difficulties. When other people start
on a path to change they want to focus clearly on where they're going
and what they need to do to get there. They *assume* it's hard and
focus on moving forward.
The first type of person -- the one who needs to hear how hard it is
-- reads the advice for the second type of person and thinks all
these people are perfect. They don't struggle. They just turn off the
old ways and start the new.
Nothing could be further from the truth! We *know* it's hard. We've
*all* struggled. And the people on the list who love to write know
from their personal experience that it's helpful to focus clearly on
where we're going and how to get there rather than on all the aches
and pains of the journey -- and that's what they have a passion for
writing about.
Here's something I wrote about why the list seems full of "perfect
people":
http://sandradodd.com/choice
to the right under "that balloon analogy..."
Joyce
> I do not think some people understand what it isI think it's safe to say 99% of the people on the list did *not* grow
> like (in my case at least) to jump into unschooling when it has not
> been a life path before.
up with this type of lifestyle.
For some people it does come naturally. They've always felt there was
something wrong with conventional parenting and schooling but
couldn't figure out what. (And really hard to figure out when
everyone around you is saying it's the right way!)
For most people it makes sense but they have so many mental
roadblocks that they can't seem to let go of. So while it makes sense
on paper, it doesn't seem to make sense when they look at their own
kids who aren't being sweet and cooperative the way it sounds like
unschooled kids are ;-)
I suspect what you're feeling is that few seem to understand how hard
it is to change. I would venture to say that *everyone* understand
how hard it is.
I think the biggest problem is a matter of what people need when they
start something new. When some people start on a path to change they
want to hear how hard it is for others so they can feel comforted
that it isn't just them having difficulties. When other people start
on a path to change they want to focus clearly on where they're going
and what they need to do to get there. They *assume* it's hard and
focus on moving forward.
The first type of person -- the one who needs to hear how hard it is
-- reads the advice for the second type of person and thinks all
these people are perfect. They don't struggle. They just turn off the
old ways and start the new.
Nothing could be further from the truth! We *know* it's hard. We've
*all* struggled. And the people on the list who love to write know
from their personal experience that it's helpful to focus clearly on
where we're going and how to get there rather than on all the aches
and pains of the journey -- and that's what they have a passion for
writing about.
Here's something I wrote about why the list seems full of "perfect
people":
http://sandradodd.com/choice
to the right under "that balloon analogy..."
Joyce