Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed?
Cameron Parham
I have a complex question...it seems complex to me anyway. I guess at the root of it, though, is whether limits are ever appropriate, and when? And can a child say that they want to do something, but hope that you won't allow it? I will say at the outset that everything below has been discussed at length with my son. Our dialog has been extensive but has not lead to a resolution. I'd like to simplify my question, and invite responses to that simpler question. Below that I'd like to elaborate on the questions more as they pertain to my particular child, for those with the patience or time to read that!
Here goes: The simple question/problem is this: my 13 yo ds has been wanting to watch TV alone from about 8:00 pm until 5:00 am for about 10 weeks. He occasionally wakes me up to watch a movie or look at something on the internet, but mostly he prefers to be alone. I have seen that some of the shows don't seem very good to me. I have at times brought up concerns, when he has (rarely) let me watch with him. But last night there was a reason he watched several hours with me nearby. The shows seemed to me...hideous. I choose that word very carefully. They were to me violent, bleak, hopeless and soul-numbing. They filled me with sorrow for their makers and for their audience, which I was so sorry to find included my son. I am not naive; I am 46, have been through much in life and I work in an ER. I am not that easily shocked. I doubt that my feelings were unreasonable. I shared my sorrow with him. Our discussion went on for a while, but no agreement could be reached. He at
first thought that because I feared that these shows, seen so frequently, could harm him, that I lacked trust in him. I went over again my belief that frequent exposure to anything will begin to influence almost anybody. He began to say.."Maybe you shouldn't allow this." But he did not say that he wouldn't watch it again. I said that I was so torn...that I did not want to control what he watched. I asked him how he'd feel if I disallowed these shows, and the words felt alien in my mouth. But a part of me felt almost like he was looking for a firmer guide. This feeling is very concerning to me, like my intuition is telling me that he wants me to forbid these shows. So...I'd love opinions on this case in particular and on the question about limits in general. Thanks you!!
Although I planned to continue here, this is enough for now. Thanks again to anyone willing to comment!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here goes: The simple question/problem is this: my 13 yo ds has been wanting to watch TV alone from about 8:00 pm until 5:00 am for about 10 weeks. He occasionally wakes me up to watch a movie or look at something on the internet, but mostly he prefers to be alone. I have seen that some of the shows don't seem very good to me. I have at times brought up concerns, when he has (rarely) let me watch with him. But last night there was a reason he watched several hours with me nearby. The shows seemed to me...hideous. I choose that word very carefully. They were to me violent, bleak, hopeless and soul-numbing. They filled me with sorrow for their makers and for their audience, which I was so sorry to find included my son. I am not naive; I am 46, have been through much in life and I work in an ER. I am not that easily shocked. I doubt that my feelings were unreasonable. I shared my sorrow with him. Our discussion went on for a while, but no agreement could be reached. He at
first thought that because I feared that these shows, seen so frequently, could harm him, that I lacked trust in him. I went over again my belief that frequent exposure to anything will begin to influence almost anybody. He began to say.."Maybe you shouldn't allow this." But he did not say that he wouldn't watch it again. I said that I was so torn...that I did not want to control what he watched. I asked him how he'd feel if I disallowed these shows, and the words felt alien in my mouth. But a part of me felt almost like he was looking for a firmer guide. This feeling is very concerning to me, like my intuition is telling me that he wants me to forbid these shows. So...I'd love opinions on this case in particular and on the question about limits in general. Thanks you!!
Although I planned to continue here, this is enough for now. Thanks again to anyone willing to comment!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
On May 15, 2007, at 12:04 AM, Cameron Parham wrote:
parented. It's so common for parents to say or imply that the rules
are because they love them. So if we let go of the rules, it can feel
like love is let go. If we loved them enough to keep them on the
right path before, letting them choose their own path can feel like
an abandonment of love.
But it doesn't sound like that's happening.
The fear oozing from you *isn't* saying it *could* happen. Your fear
is saying that you don't think that he can handle it and that it will
be pure luck if he isn't affected. And his "Maybe you shouldn't let
me," is an indication that you've managed to whittle away at his own
trust in himself.
Rather than telling him it's something to fear and making him feel
small and helpless and someone who needs his mommy to turn the TV off
for him, help him gain power over it.
Give him a big hug. Tell him you were wrong. Tell him you *do* trust
him. Tell him you let your fears overwhelm you so that you saw him as
less powerful than the TV and that you're sorry.
Give him information. You could suggest a mental check in the
mornings to see if he'd like to do something special to counteract
anything that saw last night. It might be talking about it. It might
be doing something completely different, like a happy movie or happy
music or dancing. Give him tools he can use throughout his life to
combat depression.
Do invite him to talk about the programs -- *without* the fear that
what he's telling you is leading down a dark path. If a friend of
his who seemed happy was talking about programs he'd seen you
wouldn't be filtering it through fear that he's headed for
depression. So sometimes it's easier to look at our children as
though they're someone else's kids who are sharing stuff that
interests them than a son that instinct tells you you need to
protect from the scary world.
*Trust* him. But don't take trust to mean ignore him. Invite him to
share with you. Check in with yourself! Ask yourself if you are
acting as someone he would want to share with or are you becoming
someone he'll want to hide things from. (If you've warned him that he
could sink into depression and he does because he wanted to test his
limits and he can feel changes in him but the only technique you've
given him is to turn the TV off, then he's less likely to go to you
for help.) Your fear could make him *act* as though he has no
problems because he doesn't want to feed your fears. Embrace the fact
that he still trusts you enough to talk about the programs! :-)
Nurture that. *Be* open. *Be* someone he'll want to share with. *Be*
someone he'll want to come to when something bothers him (because
right now your fears and discussions on what you'd rather he do are
setting up the opposite.)
Kids *can* whack their thumb with a hammer. If we hover over them
fearfully discussing how they could hurt themselves until they agree
that hammering is dangerous, living and learning and growing is going
to be squashed. They'll be filled with fear and distrust in their own
abilities.
If we instead say "Here's the hammer and nails. Don't bother me," we
aren't being a part of their lives and aren't welcoming them to come
to us with problems.
If we instead *trust* them, and show them -- to the extent that they
want -- the basics and are open to them coming to us with problems --
even if they hit their thumb! :-), it's all part of learning about
their own abilities.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> And can a child say that they want to do something, but hope thatIt can happen with a child who was previously conventionally
> you won't allow it?
parented. It's so common for parents to say or imply that the rules
are because they love them. So if we let go of the rules, it can feel
like love is let go. If we loved them enough to keep them on the
right path before, letting them choose their own path can feel like
an abandonment of love.
But it doesn't sound like that's happening.
> He at first thought that because I feared that these shows, seen soI think that's true, even if you managed to argue it out of him.
> frequently, could harm him, that I lacked trust in him.
The fear oozing from you *isn't* saying it *could* happen. Your fear
is saying that you don't think that he can handle it and that it will
be pure luck if he isn't affected. And his "Maybe you shouldn't let
me," is an indication that you've managed to whittle away at his own
trust in himself.
Rather than telling him it's something to fear and making him feel
small and helpless and someone who needs his mommy to turn the TV off
for him, help him gain power over it.
Give him a big hug. Tell him you were wrong. Tell him you *do* trust
him. Tell him you let your fears overwhelm you so that you saw him as
less powerful than the TV and that you're sorry.
Give him information. You could suggest a mental check in the
mornings to see if he'd like to do something special to counteract
anything that saw last night. It might be talking about it. It might
be doing something completely different, like a happy movie or happy
music or dancing. Give him tools he can use throughout his life to
combat depression.
Do invite him to talk about the programs -- *without* the fear that
what he's telling you is leading down a dark path. If a friend of
his who seemed happy was talking about programs he'd seen you
wouldn't be filtering it through fear that he's headed for
depression. So sometimes it's easier to look at our children as
though they're someone else's kids who are sharing stuff that
interests them than a son that instinct tells you you need to
protect from the scary world.
*Trust* him. But don't take trust to mean ignore him. Invite him to
share with you. Check in with yourself! Ask yourself if you are
acting as someone he would want to share with or are you becoming
someone he'll want to hide things from. (If you've warned him that he
could sink into depression and he does because he wanted to test his
limits and he can feel changes in him but the only technique you've
given him is to turn the TV off, then he's less likely to go to you
for help.) Your fear could make him *act* as though he has no
problems because he doesn't want to feed your fears. Embrace the fact
that he still trusts you enough to talk about the programs! :-)
Nurture that. *Be* open. *Be* someone he'll want to share with. *Be*
someone he'll want to come to when something bothers him (because
right now your fears and discussions on what you'd rather he do are
setting up the opposite.)
Kids *can* whack their thumb with a hammer. If we hover over them
fearfully discussing how they could hurt themselves until they agree
that hammering is dangerous, living and learning and growing is going
to be squashed. They'll be filled with fear and distrust in their own
abilities.
If we instead say "Here's the hammer and nails. Don't bother me," we
aren't being a part of their lives and aren't welcoming them to come
to us with problems.
If we instead *trust* them, and show them -- to the extent that they
want -- the basics and are open to them coming to us with problems --
even if they hit their thumb! :-), it's all part of learning about
their own abilities.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Dear Cameron: Words from another member of this list echo in my mind as I read your post. Adding to our lives when something seems off or not right . . . meaning, instead of focusing on taking the thing away, I have been thinking about what I can add (perhaps eventually replace) to embellish, enhance or expand my life and the life experiences of my kids. I've been acting on this especially when I'm concerned about what appears to me to be cycles of a lot of unhealthy food or activities (although I keep those adjectives to myself). . . rather than slice the thing out, what can I offer, add, expand upon. As long as I keep the offers coming but am OK with a "No", things eventually shift.
The other thing that comes to mind is experimenting with a limit. My daughter wants a boundary from me sometimes and we "play" for a day with that; me setting up somewhat arbitrary "controls" to see how it feels. Sometimes she likes a schedule made up by someone else to follow.
My 14 year old twins stay up most of the night gaming, playing call of duty 3 mostly and surfing the internet. They went through a very intense horror movie period; I really couldn't watch the content of those movies at all! It seems to have passed, the slasher phase.
-Ann
The other thing that comes to mind is experimenting with a limit. My daughter wants a boundary from me sometimes and we "play" for a day with that; me setting up somewhat arbitrary "controls" to see how it feels. Sometimes she likes a schedule made up by someone else to follow.
My 14 year old twins stay up most of the night gaming, playing call of duty 3 mostly and surfing the internet. They went through a very intense horror movie period; I really couldn't watch the content of those movies at all! It seems to have passed, the slasher phase.
-Ann
Cameron Parham
Anne, thanks for your lovely answer! I love the idea of adding instead of cutting out. I always believe that offering or adding is tapping into the creative force so much more than responding negatively. Thanks also for not responding to me like I am control-happy and judgemental. What does your dd do in response to these experiments? Cameron
----- Original Message ----
From: "amcarlson@..." <amcarlson@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 7:24:28 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed?
Dear Cameron: Words from another member of this list echo in my mind as I read your post. Adding to our lives when something seems off or not right . . . meaning, instead of focusing on taking the thing away, I have been thinking about what I can add (perhaps eventually replace) to embellish, enhance or expand my life and the life experiences of my kids. I've been acting on this especially when I'm concerned about what appears to me to be cycles of a lot of unhealthy food or activities (although I keep those adjectives to myself). . . rather than slice the thing out, what can I offer, add, expand upon. As long as I keep the offers coming but am OK with a "No", things eventually shift.
The other thing that comes to mind is experimenting with a limit. My daughter wants a boundary from me sometimes and we "play" for a day with that; me setting up somewhat arbitrary "controls" to see how it feels. Sometimes she likes a schedule made up by someone else to follow.
My 14 year old twins stay up most of the night gaming, playing call of duty 3 mostly and surfing the internet. They went through a very intense horror movie period; I really couldn't watch the content of those movies at all! It seems to have passed, the slasher phase.
-Ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message ----
From: "amcarlson@..." <amcarlson@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 7:24:28 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed?
Dear Cameron: Words from another member of this list echo in my mind as I read your post. Adding to our lives when something seems off or not right . . . meaning, instead of focusing on taking the thing away, I have been thinking about what I can add (perhaps eventually replace) to embellish, enhance or expand my life and the life experiences of my kids. I've been acting on this especially when I'm concerned about what appears to me to be cycles of a lot of unhealthy food or activities (although I keep those adjectives to myself). . . rather than slice the thing out, what can I offer, add, expand upon. As long as I keep the offers coming but am OK with a "No", things eventually shift.
The other thing that comes to mind is experimenting with a limit. My daughter wants a boundary from me sometimes and we "play" for a day with that; me setting up somewhat arbitrary "controls" to see how it feels. Sometimes she likes a schedule made up by someone else to follow.
My 14 year old twins stay up most of the night gaming, playing call of duty 3 mostly and surfing the internet. They went through a very intense horror movie period; I really couldn't watch the content of those movies at all! It seems to have passed, the slasher phase.
-Ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Rogers
My two cents here is that if you feel that strongly
that he is looking for firmer guidance than he
probably is. I can remember at that age pushing my
mother to be firm and feeling really lost and alone
when she was unable to offer me the firm guidance I
know I needed.
Trust yourself and trust your son.
Blessings,
Deb
But a part of me felt almost like he was looking for a
firmer guide. This feeling is very concerning to me,
like my intuition is telling me that he wants me to
forbid these shows. So...I'd love opinions on this
case in particular and on the question about limits in
general. Thanks you!!
"What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal." ~Albert Pine
____________________________________________________________________________________Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
that he is looking for firmer guidance than he
probably is. I can remember at that age pushing my
mother to be firm and feeling really lost and alone
when she was unable to offer me the firm guidance I
know I needed.
Trust yourself and trust your son.
Blessings,
Deb
But a part of me felt almost like he was looking for a
firmer guide. This feeling is very concerning to me,
like my intuition is telling me that he wants me to
forbid these shows. So...I'd love opinions on this
case in particular and on the question about limits in
general. Thanks you!!
"What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal." ~Albert Pine
____________________________________________________________________________________Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
Sylvia Toyama
My two cents here is that if you feel that strongly
that he is looking for firmer guidance than he
probably is. I can remember at that age pushing my
mother to be firm and feeling really lost and alone
when she was unable to offer me the firm guidance I
know I needed.
****
Just a quick thought -- we've had something like this come up. One of my children has some very OC behaviors and feelings, and sometimes he asks me for my help in helping him reach goals, which does require setting limits. The difference I see is that A) he chooses the limits and B) he asked me to remind him of the limits he chose and C) when he tells me he has chosen to ignore his own limits (knowing well the risks/consequences because we've discussed them at length) and I respect that.
We arrived at this point when he told me he was disappointed to miss some of his goals and needed help limiting himself. I told him I won't impose my own limits on him, but if he would like me to remind him, I would. Have you asked your son if he'd like you to help him set limits on his TV viewing? Have you discussed with him your specific concerns with the TV shows he chooses? If you've done both of these and he still chooses those shows, and tells you he doesn't want you to limit him, then I'd suggest you just back off the TV thing for a while and let him come to his own conclusions.
Sylvia -- who has recently reached a new plateau in my own personal peace with what my kids watch on TV.....
---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that he is looking for firmer guidance than he
probably is. I can remember at that age pushing my
mother to be firm and feeling really lost and alone
when she was unable to offer me the firm guidance I
know I needed.
****
Just a quick thought -- we've had something like this come up. One of my children has some very OC behaviors and feelings, and sometimes he asks me for my help in helping him reach goals, which does require setting limits. The difference I see is that A) he chooses the limits and B) he asked me to remind him of the limits he chose and C) when he tells me he has chosen to ignore his own limits (knowing well the risks/consequences because we've discussed them at length) and I respect that.
We arrived at this point when he told me he was disappointed to miss some of his goals and needed help limiting himself. I told him I won't impose my own limits on him, but if he would like me to remind him, I would. Have you asked your son if he'd like you to help him set limits on his TV viewing? Have you discussed with him your specific concerns with the TV shows he chooses? If you've done both of these and he still chooses those shows, and tells you he doesn't want you to limit him, then I'd suggest you just back off the TV thing for a while and let him come to his own conclusions.
Sylvia -- who has recently reached a new plateau in my own personal peace with what my kids watch on TV.....
---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cameron Parham
My two cents here is that if you feel that strongly
that he is looking for firmer guidance than he
probably is. I can remember at that age pushing my
mother to be firm and feeling really lost and alone
when she was unable to offer me the firm guidance I
know I needed.
This is really hit home with me. How in the world does one know!?! And of course I did communicate my concerns to my ds. Great suggestion to ask if he wishes I'd set more limits. I did and he said no. Were you conscious of wanting limits from your mother at the time, or only in retrospect? Thanks! Cameron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that he is looking for firmer guidance than he
probably is. I can remember at that age pushing my
mother to be firm and feeling really lost and alone
when she was unable to offer me the firm guidance I
know I needed.
This is really hit home with me. How in the world does one know!?! And of course I did communicate my concerns to my ds. Great suggestion to ask if he wishes I'd set more limits. I did and he said no. Were you conscious of wanting limits from your mother at the time, or only in retrospect? Thanks! Cameron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cameron Parham
I really appreciate all the answers given to the question below. Even those who seemed angry at me or seemed to be discussing things I didn't intend still put effort into this. At this point, I feel that I have some questions specific to this child, not really for the whole list. Is there anyone who offers advice or a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? For pay or for kindness? It's fine if not. Time fixes many things anyway. Cameron
----- Original Message ----
From: Cameron Parham <acsp2205@...>
To: [email protected]
Cc: csmenagerie22@...
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:04:24 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed?
I have a complex question...it seems complex to me anyway. I guess at the root of it, though, is whether limits are ever appropriate, and when? And can a child say that they want to do something, but hope that you won't allow it? I will say at the outset that everything below has been discussed at length with my son. Our dialog has been extensive but has not lead to a resolution. I'd like to simplify my question, and invite responses to that simpler question. Below that I'd like to elaborate on the questions more as they pertain to my particular child, for those with the patience or time to read that!
Here goes: The simple question/problem is this: my 13 yo ds has been wanting to watch TV alone from about 8:00 pm until 5:00 am for about 10 weeks. He occasionally wakes me up to watch a movie or look at something on the internet, but mostly he prefers to be alone. I have seen that some of the shows don't seem very good to me. I have at times brought up concerns, when he has (rarely) let me watch with him. But last night there was a reason he watched several hours with me nearby. The shows seemed to me...hideous. I choose that word very carefully. They were to me violent, bleak, hopeless and soul-numbing. They filled me with sorrow for their makers and for their audience, which I was so sorry to find included my son. I am not naive; I am 46, have been through much in life and I work in an ER. I am not that easily shocked. I doubt that my feelings were unreasonable. I shared my sorrow with him. Our discussion went on for a while, but no agreement could be reached. He at
first thought that because I feared that these shows, seen so frequently, could harm him, that I lacked trust in him. I went over again my belief that frequent exposure to anything will begin to influence almost anybody. He began to say.."Maybe you shouldn't allow this." But he did not say that he wouldn't watch it again. I said that I was so torn...that I did not want to control what he watched. I asked him how he'd feel if I disallowed these shows, and the words felt alien in my mouth. But a part of me felt almost like he was looking for a firmer guide. This feeling is very concerning to me, like my intuition is telling me that he wants me to forbid these shows. So...I'd love opinions on this case in particular and on the question about limits in general. Thanks you!!
Although I planned to continue here, this is enough for now. Thanks again to anyone willing to comment!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message ----
From: Cameron Parham <acsp2205@...>
To: [email protected]
Cc: csmenagerie22@...
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:04:24 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed?
I have a complex question...it seems complex to me anyway. I guess at the root of it, though, is whether limits are ever appropriate, and when? And can a child say that they want to do something, but hope that you won't allow it? I will say at the outset that everything below has been discussed at length with my son. Our dialog has been extensive but has not lead to a resolution. I'd like to simplify my question, and invite responses to that simpler question. Below that I'd like to elaborate on the questions more as they pertain to my particular child, for those with the patience or time to read that!
Here goes: The simple question/problem is this: my 13 yo ds has been wanting to watch TV alone from about 8:00 pm until 5:00 am for about 10 weeks. He occasionally wakes me up to watch a movie or look at something on the internet, but mostly he prefers to be alone. I have seen that some of the shows don't seem very good to me. I have at times brought up concerns, when he has (rarely) let me watch with him. But last night there was a reason he watched several hours with me nearby. The shows seemed to me...hideous. I choose that word very carefully. They were to me violent, bleak, hopeless and soul-numbing. They filled me with sorrow for their makers and for their audience, which I was so sorry to find included my son. I am not naive; I am 46, have been through much in life and I work in an ER. I am not that easily shocked. I doubt that my feelings were unreasonable. I shared my sorrow with him. Our discussion went on for a while, but no agreement could be reached. He at
first thought that because I feared that these shows, seen so frequently, could harm him, that I lacked trust in him. I went over again my belief that frequent exposure to anything will begin to influence almost anybody. He began to say.."Maybe you shouldn't allow this." But he did not say that he wouldn't watch it again. I said that I was so torn...that I did not want to control what he watched. I asked him how he'd feel if I disallowed these shows, and the words felt alien in my mouth. But a part of me felt almost like he was looking for a firmer guide. This feeling is very concerning to me, like my intuition is telling me that he wants me to forbid these shows. So...I'd love opinions on this case in particular and on the question about limits in general. Thanks you!!
Although I planned to continue here, this is enough for now. Thanks again to anyone willing to comment!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
Great suggestion to ask if he wishes I'd set more limits. I did and he said no. Were you conscious of wanting limits from your mother at the time, or only in retrospect? Thanks! Cameron
****
Whether or not anyone else is 'conscious' of wanting limits, you already got your answer from your son. He doesn't want you to set limits on his TV watching. Trust him to know what he does want, and tha the doesn't need you to second-guess what you think he might want from you.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
****
Whether or not anyone else is 'conscious' of wanting limits, you already got your answer from your son. He doesn't want you to set limits on his TV watching. Trust him to know what he does want, and tha the doesn't need you to second-guess what you think he might want from you.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cameron Parham
I didn't ask him already last night, but within moments of getting the suggestion today. I did honor his answer and didn't put limits. The question still remains: can a child subconsiously desre limits and indicate this to an attuned mother's mind? I am not a naturally controlling person at all. But I am sort of worn out with the intensity of most of these responses, though I am thankful to all who give them. Cameron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***The question still remains: ***
It only still remains because you're holding out for the answer you want.
Lots of people have answered you.
***can a child subconsiously desre limits and indicate this to an
attuned mother's mind? ***
Why? Why would a child need or want to subconsciously indicate through
telepathy to his attuned mother that he wants limits? If a kid can do all
that subconscious indicating mumbo jumbo can't he just be powerful enough to
watch whatever shows he wants? And if his mother is "attuned" can't she
just BELIEVE him and accept that he likes different things than she does?
If he said he likes the shows, believe him. If he said he doesn't want you
to limit his viewing, believe him. It's disrespectful of you to keep second
guessing him when he's already told you his preference.
Deb Lewis
It only still remains because you're holding out for the answer you want.
Lots of people have answered you.
***can a child subconsiously desre limits and indicate this to an
attuned mother's mind? ***
Why? Why would a child need or want to subconsciously indicate through
telepathy to his attuned mother that he wants limits? If a kid can do all
that subconscious indicating mumbo jumbo can't he just be powerful enough to
watch whatever shows he wants? And if his mother is "attuned" can't she
just BELIEVE him and accept that he likes different things than she does?
If he said he likes the shows, believe him. If he said he doesn't want you
to limit his viewing, believe him. It's disrespectful of you to keep second
guessing him when he's already told you his preference.
Deb Lewis
Fetteroll
On May 16, 2007, at 2:13 AM, Deb Lewis wrote:
conventional parenting -- especially *victims* of conventional
parenting! ;-) -- it has that snarky tone [conventional] parents use
to ask a question the child is supposed to have memorized the
parent's answer to by this point.
The question isn't "Why in the world would a child do that?" meaning
"You know he wouldn't and your obviously haven't been paying
attention to even ask that question."
The question Deb is asking is to think about why someone would ask
another person to limit life for them. What would cause someone to
feel they need someone else to erect boundaries around them? Why
would they feel their own boundaries for themselves weren't good enough?
Without boundaries a free person is free to go where ever they want
and do whatever they want (within the law).
Despite what those who have been raised with restrictions believe, a
person who is raised free -- as children of long time unschoolers are
-- *don't* go everywhere and do everything. They do what they want to
do and avoid doing what they don't want. They create boundaries of
choice basically. They choose not to punch someone to take what they
have. They choose not to watch pornography. They choose not to read
Harry Potter. They choose not to be friends with someone that makes
them feel uncomfortable. They choose not to watch Seventh Heaven.
They choose not to watch Blade.
But why would someone with the freedom to choose or not choose
something, come to feel they need someone to stop them from making a
choice?
It's an important question to ask because it isn't conducive to
happiness and wholeness to want someone else to limit your life for
you. Certainly people *have* reached the point where they have asked
other to limit them. But it doesn't "just happen." There is a cause,
a reason and dealing with that reason will help someone return to a
path to wholeness.
Someone who is asking someone else to limit them rather than limiting
themselves has lost trust in themselves. They had the freedom and
they're saying "Take it away. I can't trust myself with it."
It can be comforting for a parent to hear a child ask for limits.
Trusting is scary! What parent doesn't feel a pinch of fear when
their child takes the car keys to drive on their own for the first
time? It would be very comforting to those fears to hear the child
say "Don't allow me to drive further than 2 miles from home," or
"Don't let me drive at night," or "Put a curfew on me so I'm home by
9PM."
But that comfort is a trap. It might feel good to us but won't *help*
a child grow towards happiness. (It's not that a child will be
damaged by imposing limits. It's that it won't *help* him grow.
Sometimes kids come out of something unhelpful we've done perfectly
fine. But they've done it *despite* what we've done, not because of
it. We put up a roadblock but they managed to get around it.)
It's way better to *help* them grow than to nurture roadblocks that
they might or might not navigate around unscathed.
From what you wrote it sounds like he initially asked you to limit
him after your long discussion. It could be you scared him and he
lost trust in himself (for a moment since he's changed his mind now,
but even a moment isn't helpful to him). It could be he got
frustrated with the discussion and saw you imposing limits as a way
to stop you from dumping your fears on him.
It sounds like, from your upsetness, that you want to hear people say
"Yes, kids *can* want us to set limits." It *would* be a relief. You
wouldn't need to feel scared for him any more. But the regular
posters know that asking for limits indicates something has
interfered with his trust in himself and it's more important for him
and your relationship with him to investigate that something and
examine your fears than to choose the path that soothes and comforts
your fears.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Why? Why would a child need or want to subconsciously indicateThis is a perfectly legitimate question. But I think to those used to
> through
> telepathy to his attuned mother that he wants limits?
conventional parenting -- especially *victims* of conventional
parenting! ;-) -- it has that snarky tone [conventional] parents use
to ask a question the child is supposed to have memorized the
parent's answer to by this point.
The question isn't "Why in the world would a child do that?" meaning
"You know he wouldn't and your obviously haven't been paying
attention to even ask that question."
The question Deb is asking is to think about why someone would ask
another person to limit life for them. What would cause someone to
feel they need someone else to erect boundaries around them? Why
would they feel their own boundaries for themselves weren't good enough?
Without boundaries a free person is free to go where ever they want
and do whatever they want (within the law).
Despite what those who have been raised with restrictions believe, a
person who is raised free -- as children of long time unschoolers are
-- *don't* go everywhere and do everything. They do what they want to
do and avoid doing what they don't want. They create boundaries of
choice basically. They choose not to punch someone to take what they
have. They choose not to watch pornography. They choose not to read
Harry Potter. They choose not to be friends with someone that makes
them feel uncomfortable. They choose not to watch Seventh Heaven.
They choose not to watch Blade.
But why would someone with the freedom to choose or not choose
something, come to feel they need someone to stop them from making a
choice?
It's an important question to ask because it isn't conducive to
happiness and wholeness to want someone else to limit your life for
you. Certainly people *have* reached the point where they have asked
other to limit them. But it doesn't "just happen." There is a cause,
a reason and dealing with that reason will help someone return to a
path to wholeness.
Someone who is asking someone else to limit them rather than limiting
themselves has lost trust in themselves. They had the freedom and
they're saying "Take it away. I can't trust myself with it."
It can be comforting for a parent to hear a child ask for limits.
Trusting is scary! What parent doesn't feel a pinch of fear when
their child takes the car keys to drive on their own for the first
time? It would be very comforting to those fears to hear the child
say "Don't allow me to drive further than 2 miles from home," or
"Don't let me drive at night," or "Put a curfew on me so I'm home by
9PM."
But that comfort is a trap. It might feel good to us but won't *help*
a child grow towards happiness. (It's not that a child will be
damaged by imposing limits. It's that it won't *help* him grow.
Sometimes kids come out of something unhelpful we've done perfectly
fine. But they've done it *despite* what we've done, not because of
it. We put up a roadblock but they managed to get around it.)
It's way better to *help* them grow than to nurture roadblocks that
they might or might not navigate around unscathed.
From what you wrote it sounds like he initially asked you to limit
him after your long discussion. It could be you scared him and he
lost trust in himself (for a moment since he's changed his mind now,
but even a moment isn't helpful to him). It could be he got
frustrated with the discussion and saw you imposing limits as a way
to stop you from dumping your fears on him.
It sounds like, from your upsetness, that you want to hear people say
"Yes, kids *can* want us to set limits." It *would* be a relief. You
wouldn't need to feel scared for him any more. But the regular
posters know that asking for limits indicates something has
interfered with his trust in himself and it's more important for him
and your relationship with him to investigate that something and
examine your fears than to choose the path that soothes and comforts
your fears.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
On May 16, 2007, at 1:55 AM, Cameron Parham wrote:
A child who trusts himself won't.
A child who has lost trust in himself will.
The part that needs the solution isn't the limits the child is asking
for but the *reason* the child is asking for limits.
written by someone else. You *are* trying to change him by expressing
your fears to him. *You* see it as trying to convince him of
something that's obvious to you. It's not so obvious to him. He's
seeing the situation very differently. And it's frustrating you why
he doesn't see your point of view because you feel it's so sensible.
He undoubtedly feels the same way about your inability to see his
point of view! From his point of view they're just shows that he
finds interesting.
The biggest problem is that he loves and trusts you and he knows you
have more experience. That's an incredible power and we can --
sometimes unconsciously -- use to shape our kids in ways we feel are
legitimate. It *is* a form of control even if it isn't a "Here's the
rules" kind of control. It feels subtle on our part to envelope them
in words of (what we feel is) wisdom to convince them to change their
minds -- but to our kids it feels like a sledgehammer. (And perhaps
why he asked you to limit him. It might have at the time felt easier
to ask for limits than to continue listening to your (maybe even
rationally stated) fears for him.)
You have the great big huge fear that the late night shows could harm
him. It's reasonable to want that fear to go away. It's an easy
solution to grasp at the possibility that your child wants you to
limit him so the situation that's creating the fear will go away.
But none of the regulars will agree that a child in a healthy
environment will ask someone to limit him.
As an alternative, they're asking you to rationally look at your fear
and examine the validity of it.
It's comforting to hold onto fears. It's *very* hard to examine them
and work (hard!) at rationally working them out of us. But when a
fear is interfering with learning and interfering with a relationship
and damaging a child's trust in himself, then to help that child,
it's necessary to do the hard thing rather than the easy (but
damaging) thing.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> can a child subconsiously desre limits and indicate this to anYes and no.
> attuned mother's mind?
A child who trusts himself won't.
A child who has lost trust in himself will.
The part that needs the solution isn't the limits the child is asking
for but the *reason* the child is asking for limits.
> I am not a naturally controlling person at all.I think it will help you to look at your initial posts as though
written by someone else. You *are* trying to change him by expressing
your fears to him. *You* see it as trying to convince him of
something that's obvious to you. It's not so obvious to him. He's
seeing the situation very differently. And it's frustrating you why
he doesn't see your point of view because you feel it's so sensible.
He undoubtedly feels the same way about your inability to see his
point of view! From his point of view they're just shows that he
finds interesting.
The biggest problem is that he loves and trusts you and he knows you
have more experience. That's an incredible power and we can --
sometimes unconsciously -- use to shape our kids in ways we feel are
legitimate. It *is* a form of control even if it isn't a "Here's the
rules" kind of control. It feels subtle on our part to envelope them
in words of (what we feel is) wisdom to convince them to change their
minds -- but to our kids it feels like a sledgehammer. (And perhaps
why he asked you to limit him. It might have at the time felt easier
to ask for limits than to continue listening to your (maybe even
rationally stated) fears for him.)
You have the great big huge fear that the late night shows could harm
him. It's reasonable to want that fear to go away. It's an easy
solution to grasp at the possibility that your child wants you to
limit him so the situation that's creating the fear will go away.
But none of the regulars will agree that a child in a healthy
environment will ask someone to limit him.
As an alternative, they're asking you to rationally look at your fear
and examine the validity of it.
It's comforting to hold onto fears. It's *very* hard to examine them
and work (hard!) at rationally working them out of us. But when a
fear is interfering with learning and interfering with a relationship
and damaging a child's trust in himself, then to help that child,
it's necessary to do the hard thing rather than the easy (but
damaging) thing.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
> I can remember at that age pushing myI think it's helpful to examine what effect conventional parenting
> mother to be firm and feeling really lost and alone
> when she was unable to offer me the firm guidance I
> know I needed.
>> Were you conscious of wanting limits from your mother at the time,
>> or only in retrospect?
has on children's needs rather than assuming the needs of
conventionally parented children are the universal needs of children.
It's not untypical for a conventionally parented child to feel lost
and alone, to feel like they're navigating the world on their own. In
fact society is big on pushing the concept of independence. Lots of
conventional parenting advice is about getting kids to not need their
parents. The idea that preschool is good for kids because it fosters
independence is very popular!
But when we step back away from that particular tree marked
"independence" to look at the forest, why would it be a good idea for
a *3 yo* to be independent of his family? If we were to go into a
natural tribe and tell them we needed to take their 3 yos away for
several hours a day so they could learn to figure out life on their
own not only would the tribe think we were crazy but so would the
rest of the world! And yet we think it's a good idea to foster
independence in American 3 yos.
What kids -- all people really -- need is a nest of safety to stretch
their wings in. They need a place where they feel safe to test their
limits.
No unschooling child should feel lost and alone. No unschooling child
should feel they're navigating the world by themselves. It's feeling
lost and alone that needs fixed, not imposing limits.
I *think* what you're asking is: It was only after a lot of
"discussion" (you telling him your fears) that he said he wanted
limits. You want to know if that need was buried deep and you managed
to uncover it and how can you uncover those deep seated needs more
easily?
What people are trying to explain is that it *isn't* natural to want
limits. Something made him distrust himself. *You* think it's the TV.
We're certain it's your own fears.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***But the regular posters know that asking for limits indicates something
has
interfered with his trust in himself ...***
And this child isn't asking for limits. His mother wants to believe he
subconsciously wants limits and she's trying to get us to help her believe.
According to his mom he has said, right out loud, he doesn't want limits.
After what must have seemed like hounding from his mom he said, "Maybe you
shouldn't allow this." But that's more an indicator he just didn't want to
hear about her sorrows and fears any more than it was a subconscious plea to
limit his TV viewing.
***I shared my sorrow with him. Our discussion went on
for a while, but no agreement could be reached. He at
first thought that because I feared that these shows, seen so frequently,
could
harm him, that I lacked trust in him. I went over again my belief that
frequent
exposure to anything will begin to influence almost anybody. He began to
say.."Maybe you shouldn't allow this." ***
Deb Lewis
has
interfered with his trust in himself ...***
And this child isn't asking for limits. His mother wants to believe he
subconsciously wants limits and she's trying to get us to help her believe.
According to his mom he has said, right out loud, he doesn't want limits.
After what must have seemed like hounding from his mom he said, "Maybe you
shouldn't allow this." But that's more an indicator he just didn't want to
hear about her sorrows and fears any more than it was a subconscious plea to
limit his TV viewing.
***I shared my sorrow with him. Our discussion went on
for a while, but no agreement could be reached. He at
first thought that because I feared that these shows, seen so frequently,
could
harm him, that I lacked trust in him. I went over again my belief that
frequent
exposure to anything will begin to influence almost anybody. He began to
say.."Maybe you shouldn't allow this." ***
Deb Lewis
[email protected]
***can a child subconsiously desre limits and indicate this to an
attuned mother's mind? ***<<<<<<<,,
This may have already been discussed. I must admit to not reading all of
the posts in the thread. But I think yes. There may be situations where a
child or an adult may want to limit things, but not be in a relationship where
they feel they can express that. So they might keep that inside, but really
want to limit themselves and not know how exactly to go about setting goals,
limits, etc. I do think it has to come from inside the person though. I
don't think anyone can set limits for another person without setting that person
up for failure (or success I guess). I haven't really thought a whole lot
about it because my boys have never asked for limits.
I think self imposed boundaries are always in flux. I may set limits on
things for myself, but I may decide that it is OK to go outside those limits on
occasion, or not. I have the power to control those boundaries. I might
share those decisions with my family or friends and then again I might not. But
for me there is no failure.
I don't see that as your situation though. I think you have concerns for
the content of the programs your child is watching and you have asked if he is
wanting limits and he said no. I am not sure he shares your concern for his
TV watching. Maybe you need to really think about what it is you want/need.
And maybe he as well. Do you really want him to stop watching or do you
want a healthy, happy child, who, when not in your presence, can watch TV and be
able to make decisions for himself that he will be happy with etc etc. Are
you afraid that watching the programs he is watching will lead him to
.......(I guess you have to fill in the blank).
If it were me I would think about it myself, what it is I really want/need
out of the situation, and my relationship with my son. And then approach it
from that angle. Talking to him about what it is he needs/wants and find
mutually agreeable solutions to the problem where you both get what you want and
both of you are happy with the outcome.
Just a couple of my thoughts this morning.
Pam G
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
attuned mother's mind? ***<<<<<<<,,
This may have already been discussed. I must admit to not reading all of
the posts in the thread. But I think yes. There may be situations where a
child or an adult may want to limit things, but not be in a relationship where
they feel they can express that. So they might keep that inside, but really
want to limit themselves and not know how exactly to go about setting goals,
limits, etc. I do think it has to come from inside the person though. I
don't think anyone can set limits for another person without setting that person
up for failure (or success I guess). I haven't really thought a whole lot
about it because my boys have never asked for limits.
I think self imposed boundaries are always in flux. I may set limits on
things for myself, but I may decide that it is OK to go outside those limits on
occasion, or not. I have the power to control those boundaries. I might
share those decisions with my family or friends and then again I might not. But
for me there is no failure.
I don't see that as your situation though. I think you have concerns for
the content of the programs your child is watching and you have asked if he is
wanting limits and he said no. I am not sure he shares your concern for his
TV watching. Maybe you need to really think about what it is you want/need.
And maybe he as well. Do you really want him to stop watching or do you
want a healthy, happy child, who, when not in your presence, can watch TV and be
able to make decisions for himself that he will be happy with etc etc. Are
you afraid that watching the programs he is watching will lead him to
.......(I guess you have to fill in the blank).
If it were me I would think about it myself, what it is I really want/need
out of the situation, and my relationship with my son. And then approach it
from that angle. Talking to him about what it is he needs/wants and find
mutually agreeable solutions to the problem where you both get what you want and
both of you are happy with the outcome.
Just a couple of my thoughts this morning.
Pam G
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>I didn't ask him already last night, but within moments of getting thesuggestion today. I did honor his answer and didn't put limits. The question
still remains: can a child subconsiously desre limits and indicate this to an
attuned mother's mind? I am not a naturally controlling person at all. But I am
sort of worn out with the intensity of most of these responses, though I am
thankful to all who give them. Cameron<<
I understand why, but I think you are mistaking enthusiasm and passion for
anger. We often get excited about this stuff. It's not personal, and we still
like you ;)
First, let me say that this process can be challenging. What I often tell
people is that we're given messages that education is best left to the
professionals. Just homeschooling is a big deal -- actually trusting kids to learn???
Oh my!
You are worried that your child will be hurt by these images and concepts t
hat you find disturbing. And I can tell you -- probably not. Depends on your
kid. If he has other big issues, and you would probably know, it could. If he's
basically an untroubled, happy kid ... nope.
There are lots of TV shows I find disturbing. For the life of me, I have no
idea why anyone likes "Everybody Loves Raymond." Every person is mean and all
the humor seems to be based on this family being cruel to one another.
Unless you really believe these shows are hurting your son (specifically
because he has other stuff going on), ask what it is that he likes about them.
It might just be something silly and gross that you're not going to get because
you've never been a young boy. (That said, as I've mentioned before, my
lovely, beloved wife giggles every time a local DJ says her name: Joanne Doody.)
You asked if any parents of teens would be willing to talk you
through....e-mail me off-list and I'd be delighted to give you my number. I have a 17 year
old son.
Kathryn
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Cameron Parham
<acsp2205@...> wrote:
feedback. I find it really helpful to assume posititve intent behind
every post, even those that are strongly disagreeing with me or
picking my words apart. One of the things that helps *me* do that is
to imagine a kind "tone" to the words I'm reading, especially if
those words seem harsh.
I also find it helpful, if I'm reacting strongly to a certain kind
of feedback, to look carefully at my own reaction. Usually an
intense reaction on my part indicates some old baggage is underneath
whatever issue I'm trying to work through.
That being said, I'd like to call to your attention the fact that
you seem to be reacting very defensively to posters who say they
enjoy the kind of programming you find "hideous". I think it would
be worthwhile to consider if your ideas and feelings about this kind
of material and people who like it are coloring your response -
*because* your son is "one of those people".
threads often go off on tangents, or spawn new discussions
completely separate from the original issue, or go on long past the
point where the original poster intends. Personally, I love that
aspect of discussion lists - its facinating to see the connections
people make!
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
<acsp2205@...> wrote:
>Even those who seemed angry at me or seemed to be discussing thingsDiscussion lists like this can be a challenging place to get
>I didn't intend still put effort into this.
feedback. I find it really helpful to assume posititve intent behind
every post, even those that are strongly disagreeing with me or
picking my words apart. One of the things that helps *me* do that is
to imagine a kind "tone" to the words I'm reading, especially if
those words seem harsh.
I also find it helpful, if I'm reacting strongly to a certain kind
of feedback, to look carefully at my own reaction. Usually an
intense reaction on my part indicates some old baggage is underneath
whatever issue I'm trying to work through.
That being said, I'd like to call to your attention the fact that
you seem to be reacting very defensively to posters who say they
enjoy the kind of programming you find "hideous". I think it would
be worthwhile to consider if your ideas and feelings about this kind
of material and people who like it are coloring your response -
*because* your son is "one of those people".
>or seemed to be discussing things I didn't intendOne of the sort of awkward aspects of discussion lists is that the
threads often go off on tangents, or spawn new discussions
completely separate from the original issue, or go on long past the
point where the original poster intends. Personally, I love that
aspect of discussion lists - its facinating to see the connections
people make!
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
Su Penn
>> I can remember at that age pushing myWhat I wanted from my parents was consistency, and I suppose there
>> mother to be firm and feeling really lost and alone
>> when she was unable to offer me the firm guidance I
>> know I needed.
>
>>> Were you conscious of wanting limits from your mother at the time,
>>> or only in retrospect?
have been times in my life when I would have said, "I wanted limits."
My parents made rules but enforced them capriciously--they let any
given behavior go until they couldn't stand it anymore, and then
exploded. I never knew whether any given thing I did would be ignored
or punished--and if they said they were going to punish me, I never
knew whether they were going to follow through or whether I could get
out of it by cajoling or crying hard enough. I do still think that a
parent with a lot of rules who applies them consistently is doing a
better job than my parents did, and it would have been a huge relief
to me as a kid and as a teenager if my parents had become that kind
of parent. If they're read a book like Love and Logic, that makes me
shudder now, it would still have improved my life tremendously!
Even better than that, though, would have been loving engagement and
respect.
I can imagine there being times when kids, just like grown-ups, can
benefit from their loved ones helping to support a goal. Right now,
I'm on a very restrictive diet to try to improve chronic headaches,
and my partner is helping me think about what foods I can eat,
helping me to remember to eat meals when I'm feeling like I can't
think of a thing to eat, and so on. He's not setting limits for me,
but he is saying things like, "Have you remembered to have lunch? Can
I help get you something?"
A friend of mine has a 10yo son who decided he wanted to learn to
read last year. The two of them researched programs and he chose one.
It was very stressful for him and the work was hard, but he was
committed to doing it. After a few weeks, he asked her to push him a
little to do the lessons--he told her than he could handle how hard
the lessons were for him and he was still committed, but handling the
work AND being responsible for finding time in his day to do it were
too much for him. He asked her to carry part of the burden for him,
by taking responsibility for reminding him at the time of day they
had agreed on to sit down with his workbook, and helping him get
settled. That's not quite the same as the question about limits, but
it seemed somewhat related.
Neither of us--me or my 10yo friend-- would probably have been too
happy if someone else had said, "Su, it's time to go on this
incredibly restrictive diet where you can't eat 10 of your very
favorite foods," or "R., it's time for you to learn to read! Sit down
and get to work!" But we both asked our families for help in
achieving our own goals to do things that are really hard for us but
that we think are worth it.
Another thing: My parents tended to let me do things but harangue me
about them. I watched my mom do this with my niece awhile ago:
"Taylor, you shouldn't be drinking another Coke. You're already
getting heavy; women in our family tend to be fat, you know, so you
really need to watch it! And with your ethnic background you are at
very high risk of diabetes, so you should be really watching the
sugar! You should have some water, you should think about losing a
few pounds instead of doing something that will just put weight on!"
The whole time Taylor was drinking her Coke. I wanted to scream and
my mom, "Mom! Either let her have the Coke or take it away from her,
but either way JUST SHUT UP!" That's what my whole childhood and
adolescence were like.
The OP said that her son said to her at one point, "Maybe you just
shouldn't let me watch it," or something like that. One way to
interpret that is that he was looking for someone else to make the
decision for him about whether he should watch certain shows. Another
way to interpret a statement like that from a kid--any kid, I'm using
the OP as an illustration here, not talking about her son per se--is
that he wants his parent to just stop lecturing and cajoling and
sharing feelings; to just piss or get off the pot. Either let him
watch his show in peace or make it off-limits, but either way, just
shut up already.
Su
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
I really appreciate all the answers given to the question below. Even
those who
seemed angry at me or seemed to be discussing things I didn't intend
still put
effort into this. At this point, I feel that I have some questions
specific to
this child, not really for the whole list. Is there anyone who offers
advice or
a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? For pay or
for
kindness? It's fine if not. Time fixes many things anyway. Cameron
-=-=-=-
NO ONE here is angry---really!
We're trying to get you to see the situation from your child's point
of view.
We can see it because many of us have been where you are now, but
we've made this HUGE shift in our way of viewing the world and our
children. If you can just shift around a bit, you'll be able to see it
too. That doesn't mean that you will be able to DO anything about it
right away (that takes some more time, usually). But simply seeing the
problem for what it *really* is, and not what you want to make it, is a
big, BIG step. Then you can start making the changes for the *real*
problem.
I think I scare you? I'm really pretty sweet. <bwg> So's Deb! <G> NO
one's out to get you---we're here to HELP! But you'll need to drop your
defenses and accept what we're saying as kind and helpful. Seriously!
I have a 19 year old (Cameron) and an 11 year old (Duncan). Cam came
out of a private college prep school at the end of 6th grade. We went
through a silent hell for a few months as we tried to implement what I
was learning on the lists. It's simple, but it's not easy!
No one's attacking you. We're just trying to get you to shift your
perspective!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
I really appreciate all the answers given to the question below. Even
those who
seemed angry at me or seemed to be discussing things I didn't intend
still put
effort into this. At this point, I feel that I have some questions
specific to
this child, not really for the whole list. Is there anyone who offers
advice or
a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? For pay or
for
kindness? It's fine if not. Time fixes many things anyway. Cameron
-=-=-=-
NO ONE here is angry---really!
We're trying to get you to see the situation from your child's point
of view.
We can see it because many of us have been where you are now, but
we've made this HUGE shift in our way of viewing the world and our
children. If you can just shift around a bit, you'll be able to see it
too. That doesn't mean that you will be able to DO anything about it
right away (that takes some more time, usually). But simply seeing the
problem for what it *really* is, and not what you want to make it, is a
big, BIG step. Then you can start making the changes for the *real*
problem.
I think I scare you? I'm really pretty sweet. <bwg> So's Deb! <G> NO
one's out to get you---we're here to HELP! But you'll need to drop your
defenses and accept what we're saying as kind and helpful. Seriously!
I have a 19 year old (Cameron) and an 11 year old (Duncan). Cam came
out of a private college prep school at the end of 6th grade. We went
through a silent hell for a few months as we tried to implement what I
was learning on the lists. It's simple, but it's not easy!
No one's attacking you. We're just trying to get you to shift your
perspective!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
nrskay
Cameron:
I just want to chime in and say that we all have been where you are.
Our family started the journey of unschooling 2 years ago and I have a
lot to learn from these women.
Shifting your view point is uncomfortable, anything new is. We are
leaving what we knew behind us and going into unfamiliar territory.
But others have been there and the people on this list are willing to
show us the way.
Don't take their comments personal, they just want the best for you
and your son. Sometimes that means confronting your way of thinking.
It may come across like they are attacking you, but there not. When
I was brand new I would ask questions and some of the answers were
hard for me to take because they caused me to look at myself and my
beliefs.
Being challenged in our thinking is a good thing and causes only growth.
Kay in southern Cal
I just want to chime in and say that we all have been where you are.
Our family started the journey of unschooling 2 years ago and I have a
lot to learn from these women.
Shifting your view point is uncomfortable, anything new is. We are
leaving what we knew behind us and going into unfamiliar territory.
But others have been there and the people on this list are willing to
show us the way.
Don't take their comments personal, they just want the best for you
and your son. Sometimes that means confronting your way of thinking.
It may come across like they are attacking you, but there not. When
I was brand new I would ask questions and some of the answers were
hard for me to take because they caused me to look at myself and my
beliefs.
Being challenged in our thinking is a good thing and causes only growth.
Kay in southern Cal
Cameron Parham
Well,I was told that I was manipulating others, and several other pretty accusatory things about my motives.
No matter how sure that one is about someone else's thoughts and motives, the potential exists to be wrong or to be so abrasive that right things aren't heard. I am very resilient but that was very taxing. And assumptions about others are potentially flawed since humans aren't omniscient. Sometimes rushing in without clarification and good listening skills makes us fix what isn't broken and leave broken something else.
I'd like to have asked some more but I literally don't have the time or the emotional strength today to weather another storm. I'll try some other time, probably, as I am very motivated. Cameron
----- Original Message ----
From: "kbcdlovejo@..." <kbcdlovejo@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 12:02:28 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed?
-----Original Message-----
I really appreciate all the answers given to the question below. Even
those who
seemed angry at me or seemed to be discussing things I didn't intend
still put
effort into this. At this point, I feel that I have some questions
specific to
this child, not really for the whole list. Is there anyone who offers
advice or
a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? For pay or
for
kindness? It's fine if not. Time fixes many things anyway. Cameron
-=-=-=-
NO ONE here is angry---really!
We're trying to get you to see the situation from your child's point
of view.
We can see it because many of us have been where you are now, but
we've made this HUGE shift in our way of viewing the world and our
children. If you can just shift around a bit, you'll be able to see it
too. That doesn't mean that you will be able to DO anything about it
right away (that takes some more time, usually). But simply seeing the
problem for what it *really* is, and not what you want to make it, is a
big, BIG step. Then you can start making the changes for the *real*
problem.
I think I scare you? I'm really pretty sweet. <bwg> So's Deb! <G> NO
one's out to get you---we're here to HELP! But you'll need to drop your
defenses and accept what we're saying as kind and helpful. Seriously!
I have a 19 year old (Cameron) and an 11 year old (Duncan). Cam came
out of a private college prep school at the end of 6th grade. We went
through a silent hell for a few months as we tried to implement what I
was learning on the lists. It's simple, but it's not easy!
No one's attacking you. We're just trying to get you to shift your
perspective!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandL earnConference. org
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No matter how sure that one is about someone else's thoughts and motives, the potential exists to be wrong or to be so abrasive that right things aren't heard. I am very resilient but that was very taxing. And assumptions about others are potentially flawed since humans aren't omniscient. Sometimes rushing in without clarification and good listening skills makes us fix what isn't broken and leave broken something else.
I'd like to have asked some more but I literally don't have the time or the emotional strength today to weather another storm. I'll try some other time, probably, as I am very motivated. Cameron
----- Original Message ----
From: "kbcdlovejo@..." <kbcdlovejo@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 12:02:28 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed?
-----Original Message-----
I really appreciate all the answers given to the question below. Even
those who
seemed angry at me or seemed to be discussing things I didn't intend
still put
effort into this. At this point, I feel that I have some questions
specific to
this child, not really for the whole list. Is there anyone who offers
advice or
a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? For pay or
for
kindness? It's fine if not. Time fixes many things anyway. Cameron
-=-=-=-
NO ONE here is angry---really!
We're trying to get you to see the situation from your child's point
of view.
We can see it because many of us have been where you are now, but
we've made this HUGE shift in our way of viewing the world and our
children. If you can just shift around a bit, you'll be able to see it
too. That doesn't mean that you will be able to DO anything about it
right away (that takes some more time, usually). But simply seeing the
problem for what it *really* is, and not what you want to make it, is a
big, BIG step. Then you can start making the changes for the *real*
problem.
I think I scare you? I'm really pretty sweet. <bwg> So's Deb! <G> NO
one's out to get you---we're here to HELP! But you'll need to drop your
defenses and accept what we're saying as kind and helpful. Seriously!
I have a 19 year old (Cameron) and an 11 year old (Duncan). Cam came
out of a private college prep school at the end of 6th grade. We went
through a silent hell for a few months as we tried to implement what I
was learning on the lists. It's simple, but it's not easy!
No one's attacking you. We're just trying to get you to shift your
perspective!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandL earnConference. org
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cameron Parham
What a rich email this was for me. Confusing but so thought provoking. Thanks!!!! I relate to the Coke harangue. Internally for me it goes like this: I don't want to control my son's diet. He is healthy. Oh! He drank 5 cokes today! Oh! Another one! Instead of taking it away I will remind him of why a different choice is better...then I have offered him the choice and slightly relieved my anxiety without controlling him. You see my intent, I see your feelings on the receiving end. Great insight for me. Thanks again.
----- Original Message ----
From: Su Penn <supenn@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:49:03 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed?
have been times in my life when I would have said, "I wanted limits."
My parents made rules but enforced them capriciously- -they let any
given behavior go until they couldn't stand it anymore, and then
exploded. I never knew whether any given thing I did would be ignored
or punished--and if they said they were going to punish me, I never
knew whether they were going to follow through or whether I could get
out of it by cajoling or crying hard enough. I do still think that a
parent with a lot of rules who applies them consistently is doing a
better job than my parents did, and it would have been a huge relief
to me as a kid and as a teenager if my parents had become that kind
of parent. If they're read a book like Love and Logic, that makes me
shudder now, it would still have improved my life tremendously!
Even better than that, though, would have been loving engagement and
respect.
I can imagine there being times when kids, just like grown-ups, can
benefit from their loved ones helping to support a goal. Right now,
I'm on a very restrictive diet to try to improve chronic headaches,
and my partner is helping me think about what foods I can eat,
helping me to remember to eat meals when I'm feeling like I can't
think of a thing to eat, and so on. He's not setting limits for me,
but he is saying things like, "Have you remembered to have lunch? Can
I help get you something?"
A friend of mine has a 10yo son who decided he wanted to learn to
read last year. The two of them researched programs and he chose one.
It was very stressful for him and the work was hard, but he was
committed to doing it. After a few weeks, he asked her to push him a
little to do the lessons--he told her than he could handle how hard
the lessons were for him and he was still committed, but handling the
work AND being responsible for finding time in his day to do it were
too much for him. He asked her to carry part of the burden for him,
by taking responsibility for reminding him at the time of day they
had agreed on to sit down with his workbook, and helping him get
settled. That's not quite the same as the question about limits, but
it seemed somewhat related.
Neither of us--me or my 10yo friend-- would probably have been too
happy if someone else had said, "Su, it's time to go on this
incredibly restrictive diet where you can't eat 10 of your very
favorite foods," or "R., it's time for you to learn to read! Sit down
and get to work!" But we both asked our families for help in
achieving our own goals to do things that are really hard for us but
that we think are worth it.
Another thing: My parents tended to let me do things but harangue me
about them. I watched my mom do this with my niece awhile ago:
"Taylor, you shouldn't be drinking another Coke. You're already
getting heavy; women in our family tend to be fat, you know, so you
really need to watch it! And with your ethnic background you are at
very high risk of diabetes, so you should be really watching the
sugar! You should have some water, you should think about losing a
few pounds instead of doing something that will just put weight on!"
The whole time Taylor was drinking her Coke. I wanted to scream and
my mom, "Mom! Either let her have the Coke or take it away from her,
but either way JUST SHUT UP!" That's what my whole childhood and
adolescence were like.
The OP said that her son said to her at one point, "Maybe you just
shouldn't let me watch it," or something like that. One way to
interpret that is that he was looking for someone else to make the
decision for him about whether he should watch certain shows. Another
way to interpret a statement like that from a kid--any kid, I'm using
the OP as an illustration here, not talking about her son per se--is
that he wants his parent to just stop lecturing and cajoling and
sharing feelings; to just piss or get off the pot. Either let him
watch his show in peace or make it off-limits, but either way, just
shut up already.
Su
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message ----
From: Su Penn <supenn@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:49:03 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Are limits ever good or needed?
>> I can remember at that age pushing myWhat I wanted from my parents was consistency, and I suppose there
>> mother to be firm and feeling really lost and alone
>> when she was unable to offer me the firm guidance I
>> know I needed.
>
>>> Were you conscious of wanting limits from your mother at the time,
>>> or only in retrospect?
have been times in my life when I would have said, "I wanted limits."
My parents made rules but enforced them capriciously- -they let any
given behavior go until they couldn't stand it anymore, and then
exploded. I never knew whether any given thing I did would be ignored
or punished--and if they said they were going to punish me, I never
knew whether they were going to follow through or whether I could get
out of it by cajoling or crying hard enough. I do still think that a
parent with a lot of rules who applies them consistently is doing a
better job than my parents did, and it would have been a huge relief
to me as a kid and as a teenager if my parents had become that kind
of parent. If they're read a book like Love and Logic, that makes me
shudder now, it would still have improved my life tremendously!
Even better than that, though, would have been loving engagement and
respect.
I can imagine there being times when kids, just like grown-ups, can
benefit from their loved ones helping to support a goal. Right now,
I'm on a very restrictive diet to try to improve chronic headaches,
and my partner is helping me think about what foods I can eat,
helping me to remember to eat meals when I'm feeling like I can't
think of a thing to eat, and so on. He's not setting limits for me,
but he is saying things like, "Have you remembered to have lunch? Can
I help get you something?"
A friend of mine has a 10yo son who decided he wanted to learn to
read last year. The two of them researched programs and he chose one.
It was very stressful for him and the work was hard, but he was
committed to doing it. After a few weeks, he asked her to push him a
little to do the lessons--he told her than he could handle how hard
the lessons were for him and he was still committed, but handling the
work AND being responsible for finding time in his day to do it were
too much for him. He asked her to carry part of the burden for him,
by taking responsibility for reminding him at the time of day they
had agreed on to sit down with his workbook, and helping him get
settled. That's not quite the same as the question about limits, but
it seemed somewhat related.
Neither of us--me or my 10yo friend-- would probably have been too
happy if someone else had said, "Su, it's time to go on this
incredibly restrictive diet where you can't eat 10 of your very
favorite foods," or "R., it's time for you to learn to read! Sit down
and get to work!" But we both asked our families for help in
achieving our own goals to do things that are really hard for us but
that we think are worth it.
Another thing: My parents tended to let me do things but harangue me
about them. I watched my mom do this with my niece awhile ago:
"Taylor, you shouldn't be drinking another Coke. You're already
getting heavy; women in our family tend to be fat, you know, so you
really need to watch it! And with your ethnic background you are at
very high risk of diabetes, so you should be really watching the
sugar! You should have some water, you should think about losing a
few pounds instead of doing something that will just put weight on!"
The whole time Taylor was drinking her Coke. I wanted to scream and
my mom, "Mom! Either let her have the Coke or take it away from her,
but either way JUST SHUT UP!" That's what my whole childhood and
adolescence were like.
The OP said that her son said to her at one point, "Maybe you just
shouldn't let me watch it," or something like that. One way to
interpret that is that he was looking for someone else to make the
decision for him about whether he should watch certain shows. Another
way to interpret a statement like that from a kid--any kid, I'm using
the OP as an illustration here, not talking about her son per se--is
that he wants his parent to just stop lecturing and cajoling and
sharing feelings; to just piss or get off the pot. Either let him
watch his show in peace or make it off-limits, but either way, just
shut up already.
Su
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: acsp2205@...
I'd like to have asked some more but I literally don't have the time
or the
emotional strength today to weather another storm. I'll try some other
time,
probably, as I am very motivated.
-=-=-
And as you can imagine, *answering* all the questions can be taxing.
Many (all??) of us will take a small sabatical when it's been too much.
Then we come back for more. <bwg> Because we LIKE to help. Because it
makes a difference in children's lives. (Might make some *parents* lose
a few hairs, but that's part of the process. <g>)
And we'll be here when you're ready to try again.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: acsp2205@...
I'd like to have asked some more but I literally don't have the time
or the
emotional strength today to weather another storm. I'll try some other
time,
probably, as I am very motivated.
-=-=-
And as you can imagine, *answering* all the questions can be taxing.
Many (all??) of us will take a small sabatical when it's been too much.
Then we come back for more. <bwg> Because we LIKE to help. Because it
makes a difference in children's lives. (Might make some *parents* lose
a few hairs, but that's part of the process. <g>)
And we'll be here when you're ready to try again.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Melissa
And the same is true in the reverse...you are assuming that people are attacking you, and
after reading all of the emails, I haven't seen that. I've seen a lot of moms who've been
there, done that, respond in a very passionate way. And yes, perhaps without all the
information, but you didn't post more information. They only had what they posted with.
It is hard to feel that you have to defend yourself. But no one is asking you to, what they
are asking is that you look at the entire situation outside of where you already are, and
that's the opportunity you have! By seeing how we are seeing the situation, you have the
opportunity to see it outside of yourself. I think you are so close that you feel abraided.
I remember one of the hardest things I ever heard on this group, was after I posted
something and Sandra Dodd told me that if I did not like how people were perceiving my
family, then I needed to be much more precise in describing the situation. We aren't
'rushing' into conclusions per se, but asking a million questions to verify something does
take a lot of time, something most of us don't have a lot to spare. It did very much seem
to me that you spent a lot of time 'talking' with your son explaining how you felt about the
show, and then was frustrated that he didn't agree with you at the end. I don't know that I
would like the show you described either, and I can assure you that unschooled children
who have freedom of choice, and are not interested in the show, will not choose to watch
that show. They will leave or change the channel or complain. Kids who are interested are
obviously understanding *something*, it doesn't even have to be the sexual innuendo. My
eight year old would watch that and not even catch it...she would be engrossed in the idea
of eating worms, but the sex would not even be heard. My 12 year old would totally catch
it and be intrigued and embarrassed because of hormones, but talking with me or dad
would clear up a lot of that. If he felt embarrassed and then felt judged by me, then he
might choose to not watch, and then I'd feel my own sort of shame for providing an
unnecessary limit. My husband would probably laugh his butt off, and I'd be in another
room playing with the people who were not interested.
Are limits ever needed? Well, yeah, I don't let my daughter (18 months) play in the street
during rush hour. I will find a better place for her to run, whether it be another street, the
park, our backyard. Are TV limits ever needed? I like the way Ren described it. That's what
we do in our family. Our kids can watch what they want, I'm totally there. We have several
TV's so that the little's feel that they have a choice if a big kid is watching something they
don't like. We have LOTS of other things to do, crafts and books, mud and toys, video
games and movies. Computers are very popular here, and Josh actually now watches more
stuff online to help Sam and Dan have more opportunity to watch what they like.
Anyway, I'm rambling only because the kids are putting on their own 'movie' about Teddy
Bear cannibals that eat cotton underwear when they can't catch one of their own, and I
have about ten minutes before the laundry loads need changed. WOohOo! Just know that
it's the hardest journey, but one which is so rewarding. We've been unschooling a year and
a half, and I've seen so many benefits. it's taken a long time for us all, but we're settling in.
Melissa
after reading all of the emails, I haven't seen that. I've seen a lot of moms who've been
there, done that, respond in a very passionate way. And yes, perhaps without all the
information, but you didn't post more information. They only had what they posted with.
It is hard to feel that you have to defend yourself. But no one is asking you to, what they
are asking is that you look at the entire situation outside of where you already are, and
that's the opportunity you have! By seeing how we are seeing the situation, you have the
opportunity to see it outside of yourself. I think you are so close that you feel abraided.
I remember one of the hardest things I ever heard on this group, was after I posted
something and Sandra Dodd told me that if I did not like how people were perceiving my
family, then I needed to be much more precise in describing the situation. We aren't
'rushing' into conclusions per se, but asking a million questions to verify something does
take a lot of time, something most of us don't have a lot to spare. It did very much seem
to me that you spent a lot of time 'talking' with your son explaining how you felt about the
show, and then was frustrated that he didn't agree with you at the end. I don't know that I
would like the show you described either, and I can assure you that unschooled children
who have freedom of choice, and are not interested in the show, will not choose to watch
that show. They will leave or change the channel or complain. Kids who are interested are
obviously understanding *something*, it doesn't even have to be the sexual innuendo. My
eight year old would watch that and not even catch it...she would be engrossed in the idea
of eating worms, but the sex would not even be heard. My 12 year old would totally catch
it and be intrigued and embarrassed because of hormones, but talking with me or dad
would clear up a lot of that. If he felt embarrassed and then felt judged by me, then he
might choose to not watch, and then I'd feel my own sort of shame for providing an
unnecessary limit. My husband would probably laugh his butt off, and I'd be in another
room playing with the people who were not interested.
Are limits ever needed? Well, yeah, I don't let my daughter (18 months) play in the street
during rush hour. I will find a better place for her to run, whether it be another street, the
park, our backyard. Are TV limits ever needed? I like the way Ren described it. That's what
we do in our family. Our kids can watch what they want, I'm totally there. We have several
TV's so that the little's feel that they have a choice if a big kid is watching something they
don't like. We have LOTS of other things to do, crafts and books, mud and toys, video
games and movies. Computers are very popular here, and Josh actually now watches more
stuff online to help Sam and Dan have more opportunity to watch what they like.
Anyway, I'm rambling only because the kids are putting on their own 'movie' about Teddy
Bear cannibals that eat cotton underwear when they can't catch one of their own, and I
have about ten minutes before the laundry loads need changed. WOohOo! Just know that
it's the hardest journey, but one which is so rewarding. We've been unschooling a year and
a half, and I've seen so many benefits. it's taken a long time for us all, but we're settling in.
Melissa
--- In [email protected], Cameron Parham <acsp2205@...> wrote:
>
> Well,I was told that I was manipulating others, and several other pretty accusatory things
about my motives.
> No matter how sure that one is about someone else's thoughts and motives, the
potential exists to be wrong or to be so abrasive that right things aren't heard. I am very
resilient but that was very taxing. And assumptions about others are potentially flawed
since humans aren't omniscient. Sometimes rushing in without clarification and good
listening skills makes us fix what isn't broken and leave broken something else.
> I'd like to have asked some more but I literally don't have the time or the emotional
strength today to weather another storm. I'll try some other time, probably, as I am very
motivated. Cameron
Su Penn
On May 16, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Cameron Parham wrote:
every single time. I have this with my almost 6yo about some things.
I find myself repeating myself to him about certain things and have
to pull back and say, "Su, he knows that. He's smart and he remembers
everything. Repeating it again is just nagging or lecturing, and
neither is helpful."
Glad my post seemed helpful to you.
Su
> What a rich email this was for me. Confusing but so thoughtI would only add to this that he probably doesn't need a reminder
> provoking. Thanks!!!! I relate to the Coke harangue. Internally for
> me it goes like this: I don't want to control my son's diet. He is
> healthy. Oh! He drank 5 cokes today! Oh! Another one! Instead of
> taking it away I will remind him of why a different choice is better.
every single time. I have this with my almost 6yo about some things.
I find myself repeating myself to him about certain things and have
to pull back and say, "Su, he knows that. He's smart and he remembers
everything. Repeating it again is just nagging or lecturing, and
neither is helpful."
Glad my post seemed helpful to you.
Su
ray
It is very hard to get advice that doesn't agree with what we think
is right. I have to say, though, that Deb Lewis is one of my favorite
posters on this list because she is so often painfully right on.
Kelly is quickly becoming my 2nd favorite. And I'm not trying to
curry favors, just that these women seem to have found the way to
keep their eyes, minds, and hearts open.
If you're serious about someone to talk to, you may want to check out
www.naomialdort.com and www.naturalchild.org/counseling. Neither one
is cheap, but what is these days? I have not used either service, but
I can say that reading Naomi's book is currently opening my eyes up A
LOT.
Best Wishes,
Ray
is right. I have to say, though, that Deb Lewis is one of my favorite
posters on this list because she is so often painfully right on.
Kelly is quickly becoming my 2nd favorite. And I'm not trying to
curry favors, just that these women seem to have found the way to
keep their eyes, minds, and hearts open.
If you're serious about someone to talk to, you may want to check out
www.naomialdort.com and www.naturalchild.org/counseling. Neither one
is cheap, but what is these days? I have not used either service, but
I can say that reading Naomi's book is currently opening my eyes up A
LOT.
Best Wishes,
Ray
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> I really appreciate all the answers given to the question below.
Even
> those who
> seemed angry at me or seemed to be discussing things I didn't
intend
> still put
> effort into this. At this point, I feel that I have some
questions
> specific to
> this child, not really for the whole list. Is there anyone who
offers
> advice or
> a listening ear offline who has raised or is raising teens? For
pay or
> for
> kindness? It's fine if not. Time fixes many things anyway. Cameron
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> NO ONE here is angry---really!
>
> We're trying to get you to see the situation from your child's
point
> of view.
>
> We can see it because many of us have been where you are now, but
> we've made this HUGE shift in our way of viewing the world and our
> children. If you can just shift around a bit, you'll be able to see
it
> too. That doesn't mean that you will be able to DO anything about
it
> right away (that takes some more time, usually). But simply seeing
the
> problem for what it *really* is, and not what you want to make it,
is a
> big, BIG step. Then you can start making the changes for the *real*
> problem.
>
> I think I scare you? I'm really pretty sweet. <bwg> So's Deb! <G>
NO
> one's out to get you---we're here to HELP! But you'll need to drop
your
> defenses and accept what we're saying as kind and helpful.
Seriously!
>
> I have a 19 year old (Cameron) and an 11 year old (Duncan). Cam
came
> out of a private college prep school at the end of 6th grade. We
went
> through a silent hell for a few months as we tried to implement
what I
> was learning on the lists. It's simple, but it's not easy!
>
> No one's attacking you. We're just trying to get you to shift
your
> perspective!
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
free
> from AOL at AOL.com.
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: raychi822@...
It is very hard to get advice that doesn't agree with what we think
is right. I have to say, though, that Deb Lewis is one of my favorite
posters on this list because she is so often painfully right on.
-=-=-
And FUNNY! She cracks me up! <g>
And we'll never hear the end of THAT! <G> It'll be Deb-this and
Deb-that, and then she'll probably ask for a raise!
-=-=-=-=-
Kelly is quickly becoming my 2nd favorite.
-=-=-
Always the bridesmaid, never the bride....<g>
-==-=-=-
And I'm not trying to
curry favors, just that these women seem to have found the way to
keep their eyes, minds, and hearts open.
-==-=-
Suck up!
but thanks.<g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: raychi822@...
It is very hard to get advice that doesn't agree with what we think
is right. I have to say, though, that Deb Lewis is one of my favorite
posters on this list because she is so often painfully right on.
-=-=-
And FUNNY! She cracks me up! <g>
And we'll never hear the end of THAT! <G> It'll be Deb-this and
Deb-that, and then she'll probably ask for a raise!
-=-=-=-=-
Kelly is quickly becoming my 2nd favorite.
-=-=-
Always the bridesmaid, never the bride....<g>
-==-=-=-
And I'm not trying to
curry favors, just that these women seem to have found the way to
keep their eyes, minds, and hearts open.
-==-=-
Suck up!
but thanks.<g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky
This is my point of view only.
I think you do lack trust in your son and now after discussing YOUR views and opinions on those shows you have made him doubt himself also.
You told him that anyone watching those shows over and over again will be harmed by it. You son pribably trusts you enought that he is starting to think that they will indeed harm him. At the same time he likes those shows.
See were I am going?
Soory I got to go the baby needs me...
Alex
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think you do lack trust in your son and now after discussing YOUR views and opinions on those shows you have made him doubt himself also.
You told him that anyone watching those shows over and over again will be harmed by it. You son pribably trusts you enought that he is starting to think that they will indeed harm him. At the same time he likes those shows.
See were I am going?
Soory I got to go the baby needs me...
Alex
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>It is very hard to get advice that doesn't agree with what we thinkis right. I have to say, though, that Deb Lewis is one of my favorite
posters on this list because she is so often painfully right on.
Kelly is quickly becoming my 2nd favorite. And I'm not trying to
curry favors, just that these women seem to have found the way to
keep their eyes, minds, and hearts open.
If you're serious about someone to talk to, you may want to check out
www.naomialdort.com and www.naturalchild.org/counseling. Neither one
is cheap, but what is these days? I have not used either service, but
I can say<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I agree with talking to Naomi or Jan . I have myself had counseling from both of them and they are awesome.
You can start by reading their books and websites and that will already help you a lot!!!!!
Alex
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]