Beth Mouser

Hi everybody,

Sorry to be negative and questioning, but I am again struggling with
unschooling. Both of my boys (11 and 13) have told me that they want
to go to college. My oldest says he wants to become a zoologist or a
veterinarian and since I have been unschooling him this year (with
the exception of math, which he does without much cajoling anyway),
he has learned a ton about animals on his own. I was pleasantly
surprised and it is a great demonstration of how unschooling can work
as far as how much my son has learned. He particularly loves animal
classification. My younger son says he wants to become an
engineer.

I am worried that if we don't do more structured learning, they will
not do well on their SATs. BTW, we do not currently have a community
college where we live. I wonder if doing several hours of work with
regard to spelling, vocabulary, and reading would boost SAT scores
and help them get into a good college. I hate to talk like that, but
I am just being honest about how I'm thinking.

It seems like the SAT is the end-all be-all to what doors will be
open to certain vocations. Are there situations where they would be
accepted without the high SAT score? Also, do they really need to go
to a "Good" top college in order to become a zoologist, engineer, or
veterinarian? They have such lofty goals it seems and my oldest is
diagnosed on the autistic spectrum and so has additional struggles.

I understand how quickly time passes and it seems that they got older
so quickly. I wish I didn't feel I have to fret about their futures
and vocations and could just relax about their learning.

I explained to my oldest son in particular about how important
testing is if he wants to be accepted into a good school and he
seemed like he understood this and wants to work hard on academics to
prepare for the SAT. I felt guilty telling him this and wondered if
this were even the truth, but that is what I hear everywhere except
here. My mom also mentioned that many kids who do really well on
SATs are still not getting into the "Top" colleges. There are just
too many kids. So he could work his fanny off, miss many joys and
pleasures and still not gain anything from it.

I would very much appreciate your thoughts about "academics" and
college.

Thanks, Beth

Su Penn

On Apr 25, 2007, at 1:17 AM, Beth Mouser wrote:

I don't think there are many things you have to go to a "top" college
to do--and I say this having a triple undergrad major earned at four
colleges, two master's degrees, and two additional years of grad
school at yet another school (what can I say, I love taking
classes). Engineering, for instance--in Michigan, where I live,
there are good engineering programs at several of the "lesser" state
schools. Two of my friends (a couple) got into a nationally-ranked
graduate school with degrees from a third-tier undergrad college.

I wouldn't personally work too hard on academics to study for the
SAT. I'd get an SAT prep guide and start with that. When I was
studying for the GRE, I used a prep guide and it did a good job of
teaching the math that was needed.

Here's the page on admissions for our local highly-ranked vet school:
http://cvm.msu.edu/admis/admissions/common_questions.htm#gpa

Su

> I explained to my oldest son in particular about how important
> testing is if he wants to be accepted into a good school and he
> seemed like he understood this and wants to work hard on academics to
> prepare for the SAT. I felt guilty telling him this and wondered if
> this were even the truth, but that is what I hear everywhere except
> here. My mom also mentioned that many kids who do really well on
> SATs are still not getting into the "Top" colleges. There are just
> too many kids. So he could work his fanny off, miss many joys and
> pleasures and still not gain anything from it.
>
> I would very much appreciate your thoughts about "academics" and
> college.
>
> Thanks, Beth
>

Schuyler

You can take the SAT more than once. You can find the best state school for
what you want to do, move to that state, live there for a year, get
residency and than apply to the school and get in and pay less money.
University isn't really that hard to get into. They want your money. And Su
is absolutely right. You are better off going to a state school for many
things than you are going to a good name university.

What if instead of looking at the goal of getting them into university to
become engineers and zoologists what if you figured out ways that they could
do engineering and zoology now? When I was in Belize I met a herpatologist
who had gotten into working at a zoo before he'd ever gone to university. He
shoveled manure at Memphis zoo (I think) and on his first day he let the
elephants loose in the zoo. They kept him on and he is now their curator of
reptiles and aquatics (after getting a few degrees at the University of
Memphis) and was in Belize checking out the range of a couple of the
tarantula species he'd discovered.

You don't have to start at college. You can start right now. You can get
some robotics kits or get a few subscriptions to some magazines or buy the
lego robotics kit, if that's the kind of engineering he wants to do.

Maybe they are only interested in those things right now. Maybe they won't
be interested in them when they are 18 or 25 or 32 or 56. I wanted to be a
marine biologist when I was 13, that or an occultist. My mom was willing to
buy a bunch of books on marine biology but not the Aleister Crowley books
that I also wanted. Help them be what they want to be now. Help them do what
they want to do now. See what your son wants to do now about his zoology
goals, see if he wants to go to the zoo and see if he can volunteer to work
there, or contact your local shelter and see if he can do volunteer work
there. Or your vet. Get Gerald Durrell's book The Amateur Naturalist and see
if your son is interested in exploring the world using Durrell's approach,
which is more that of a collector as that is the era Durrell came from.
There are cool free engineering games on the internet like here:
http://www.bridgebuilder-game.com/links.php or try
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/bamzooki/ for the BBC's Bamzooki guys, an
engineering problem if ever there was one. And don't hold your breath
waiting for them to become zoologists or vets or engineers. Just help them
be that now, but don't be surprised if other ideas take their fancy. The
world is full of some pretty cool and amazing things to explore.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth Mouser" <mouser4@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 6:17 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] worry creeping back in


> Hi everybody,
>
> Sorry to be negative and questioning, but I am again struggling with
> unschooling. Both of my boys (11 and 13) have told me that they want
> to go to college. My oldest says he wants to become a zoologist or a
> veterinarian and since I have been unschooling him this year (with
> the exception of math, which he does without much cajoling anyway),
> he has learned a ton about animals on his own. I was pleasantly
> surprised and it is a great demonstration of how unschooling can work
> as far as how much my son has learned. He particularly loves animal
> classification. My younger son says he wants to become an
> engineer.
>
> I am worried that if we don't do more structured learning, they will
> not do well on their SATs. BTW, we do not currently have a community
> college where we live. I wonder if doing several hours of work with
> regard to spelling, vocabulary, and reading would boost SAT scores
> and help them get into a good college. I hate to talk like that, but
> I am just being honest about how I'm thinking.
>
> It seems like the SAT is the end-all be-all to what doors will be
> open to certain vocations. Are there situations where they would be
> accepted without the high SAT score? Also, do they really need to go
> to a "Good" top college in order to become a zoologist, engineer, or
> veterinarian? They have such lofty goals it seems and my oldest is
> diagnosed on the autistic spectrum and so has additional struggles.
>
> I understand how quickly time passes and it seems that they got older
> so quickly. I wish I didn't feel I have to fret about their futures
> and vocations and could just relax about their learning.
>
> I explained to my oldest son in particular about how important
> testing is if he wants to be accepted into a good school and he
> seemed like he understood this and wants to work hard on academics to
> prepare for the SAT. I felt guilty telling him this and wondered if
> this were even the truth, but that is what I hear everywhere except
> here. My mom also mentioned that many kids who do really well on
> SATs are still not getting into the "Top" colleges. There are just
> too many kids. So he could work his fanny off, miss many joys and
> pleasures and still not gain anything from it.
>
> I would very much appreciate your thoughts about "academics" and
> college.
>
> Thanks, Beth
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Schuyler Waynforth

If this goes through twice, sorry. I didn't think it sent the first time.

You can take the SAT more than once. You can find the best state
school for
what you want to do, move to that state, live there for a year, get
residency and than apply to the school and get in and pay less money.
University isn't really that hard to get into. They want your money.
And Su
is absolutely right. You are better off going to a state school for many
things than you are going to a good name university.

What if instead of looking at the goal of getting them into university to
become engineers and zoologists what if you figured out ways that they
could
do engineering and zoology now? When I was in Belize I met a
herpatologist
who had gotten into working at a zoo before he'd ever gone to
university. He
shoveled manure at Memphis zoo (I think) and on his first day he let the
elephants loose in the zoo. They kept him on and he is now their
curator of
reptiles and aquatics (after getting a few degrees at the University of
Memphis) and was in Belize checking out the range of a couple of the
tarantula species he'd discovered.

You don't have to start at college. You can start right now. You can get
some robotics kits or get a few subscriptions to some magazines or buy
the
lego robotics kit, if that's the kind of engineering he wants to do.

Maybe they are only interested in those things right now. Maybe they
won't
be interested in them when they are 18 or 25 or 32 or 56. I wanted to
be a
marine biologist when I was 13, that or an occultist. My mom was
willing to
buy a bunch of books on marine biology but not the Aleister Crowley books
that I also wanted. Help them be what they want to be now. Help them
do what
they want to do now. See what your son wants to do now about his zoology
goals, see if he wants to go to the zoo and see if he can volunteer to
work
there, or contact your local shelter and see if he can do volunteer work
there. Or your vet. Get Gerald Durrell's book The Amateur Naturalist
and see
if your son is interested in exploring the world using Durrell's
approach,
which is more that of a collector as that is the era Durrell came from.
There are cool free engineering games on the internet like here:
http://www.bridgebuilder-game.com/links.php or try
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/bamzooki/ for the BBC's Bamzooki guys, an
engineering problem if ever there was one. And don't hold your breath
waiting for them to become zoologists or vets or engineers. Just help
them
be that now, but don't be surprised if other ideas take their fancy. The
world is full of some pretty cool and amazing things to explore.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com


--- In [email protected], "Beth Mouser" <mouser4@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> Sorry to be negative and questioning, but I am again struggling with
> unschooling. Both of my boys (11 and 13) have told me that they want
> to go to college. My oldest says he wants to become a zoologist or a
> veterinarian and since I have been unschooling him this year (with
> the exception of math, which he does without much cajoling anyway),
> he has learned a ton about animals on his own. I was pleasantly
> surprised and it is a great demonstration of how unschooling can work
> as far as how much my son has learned. He particularly loves animal
> classification. My younger son says he wants to become an
> engineer.
>
> I am worried that if we don't do more structured learning, they will
> not do well on their SATs. BTW, we do not currently have a community
> college where we live. I wonder if doing several hours of work with
> regard to spelling, vocabulary, and reading would boost SAT scores
> and help them get into a good college. I hate to talk like that, but
> I am just being honest about how I'm thinking.
>
> It seems like the SAT is the end-all be-all to what doors will be
> open to certain vocations. Are there situations where they would be
> accepted without the high SAT score? Also, do they really need to go
> to a "Good" top college in order to become a zoologist, engineer, or
> veterinarian? They have such lofty goals it seems and my oldest is
> diagnosed on the autistic spectrum and so has additional struggles.
>
> I understand how quickly time passes and it seems that they got older
> so quickly. I wish I didn't feel I have to fret about their futures
> and vocations and could just relax about their learning.
>
> I explained to my oldest son in particular about how important
> testing is if he wants to be accepted into a good school and he
> seemed like he understood this and wants to work hard on academics to
> prepare for the SAT. I felt guilty telling him this and wondered if
> this were even the truth, but that is what I hear everywhere except
> here. My mom also mentioned that many kids who do really well on
> SATs are still not getting into the "Top" colleges. There are just
> too many kids. So he could work his fanny off, miss many joys and
> pleasures and still not gain anything from it.
>
> I would very much appreciate your thoughts about "academics" and
> college.
>
> Thanks, Beth
>

Ren Allen

~~I am worried that if we don't do more structured learning, they will
not do well on their SATs. ~~

Oh my. How about living for today and crossing that bridge when it
comes? Nobody needs years of prep for an SAT or ACT test. If they
decide to go to college, help them get ready at that point, when they
actually need the information. You can't really know what they'll need
in a few years, so it's wasted time to try and prepare them for the
unknown.

They can prepare for an SAT at 17 at 20 or at 25 years of age. Why
concern yourself with something that a)may never happen and b)can be
learned as soon as a person is wanting to learn it?

Please listen to this radio interview with my friend Valerie
Fitzenreiter and her dd Laurie, who never had an ounce of formal
learning until she decided to go to college. She is almost finished
getting her Doctorate in Sociology. http://thestory.org/?refid=6
Living proof that one doesn't need years of prep to do well in college
if that's something they choose.


Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Julia

As a current college student who went through the admissions process
not too long ago (albeit with 3 years of standard public high school
education behind me, so I wasn't really in the same boat), I'd like to
point out that there's a growing list of colleges that do not require
SAT scores. That list can be found here:
http://www.fairtest.org/optional.htm

I attend Hampshire College, an SAT-optional, private liberal arts
school in Western Mass. Opened in 1970 as an experimenting
instituion, Hampshire offers small classes, no exams, and no grades
(instead we write and receive narrative evaluations). I have several
friends here who were homeschooled and/or unschooled, and they've
found this to be a great environment, much more in line with their
past educational experiences than a traditional college or university.
Hampshire's not the only no-grades school out there—Bennington,
Marlboro, and Evergreen come to mind—and all of them have their
different strengths and weaknesses...although, of course, I think
Hampshire's the best!

Hope this knowledge helps quell your worries, at least a tad.

Julia

P.S. In case you were curious, graduates from Hampshire, et al., can
and do get into grad school, med school, etc., even with our lack of
GPAs and crazy "non-traditional" transcripts. So, your future
veterinarian would be good to go. These schools might not be the best
choice for your other son, however, if he wants a B.A. in engineering;
the diplomas they award are in the liberal arts with a concentration
in whatever your course of study was—there are no majors.




On 4/25/07, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
> You can take the SAT more than once. You can find the best state school for
> what you want to do, move to that state, live there for a year, get
> residency and than apply to the school and get in and pay less money.
> University isn't really that hard to get into. They want your money. And Su
> is absolutely right. You are better off going to a state school for many
> things than you are going to a good name university.
>
> What if instead of looking at the goal of getting them into university to
> become engineers and zoologists what if you figured out ways that they could
> do engineering and zoology now? When I was in Belize I met a herpatologist
> who had gotten into working at a zoo before he'd ever gone to university. He
> shoveled manure at Memphis zoo (I think) and on his first day he let the
> elephants loose in the zoo. They kept him on and he is now their curator of
> reptiles and aquatics (after getting a few degrees at the University of
> Memphis) and was in Belize checking out the range of a couple of the
> tarantula species he'd discovered.
>
> You don't have to start at college. You can start right now. You can get
> some robotics kits or get a few subscriptions to some magazines or buy the
> lego robotics kit, if that's the kind of engineering he wants to do.
>
> Maybe they are only interested in those things right now. Maybe they won't
> be interested in them when they are 18 or 25 or 32 or 56. I wanted to be a
> marine biologist when I was 13, that or an occultist. My mom was willing to
> buy a bunch of books on marine biology but not the Aleister Crowley books
> that I also wanted. Help them be what they want to be now. Help them do what
> they want to do now. See what your son wants to do now about his zoology
> goals, see if he wants to go to the zoo and see if he can volunteer to work
> there, or contact your local shelter and see if he can do volunteer work
> there. Or your vet. Get Gerald Durrell's book The Amateur Naturalist and see
> if your son is interested in exploring the world using Durrell's approach,
> which is more that of a collector as that is the era Durrell came from.
> There are cool free engineering games on the internet like here:
> http://www.bridgebuilder-game.com/links.php or try
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/bamzooki/ for the BBC's Bamzooki guys, an
> engineering problem if ever there was one. And don't hold your breath
> waiting for them to become zoologists or vets or engineers. Just help them
> be that now, but don't be surprised if other ideas take their fancy. The
> world is full of some pretty cool and amazing things to explore.
>
> Schuyler
> www.waynforth.blogspot.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth Mouser" <mouser4@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 6:17 AM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] worry creeping back in
>
>
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > Sorry to be negative and questioning, but I am again struggling with
> > unschooling. Both of my boys (11 and 13) have told me that they want
> > to go to college. My oldest says he wants to become a zoologist or a
> > veterinarian and since I have been unschooling him this year (with
> > the exception of math, which he does without much cajoling anyway),
> > he has learned a ton about animals on his own. I was pleasantly
> > surprised and it is a great demonstration of how unschooling can work
> > as far as how much my son has learned. He particularly loves animal
> > classification. My younger son says he wants to become an
> > engineer.
> >
> > I am worried that if we don't do more structured learning, they will
> > not do well on their SATs. BTW, we do not currently have a community
> > college where we live. I wonder if doing several hours of work with
> > regard to spelling, vocabulary, and reading would boost SAT scores
> > and help them get into a good college. I hate to talk like that, but
> > I am just being honest about how I'm thinking.
> >
> > It seems like the SAT is the end-all be-all to what doors will be
> > open to certain vocations. Are there situations where they would be
> > accepted without the high SAT score? Also, do they really need to go
> > to a "Good" top college in order to become a zoologist, engineer, or
> > veterinarian? They have such lofty goals it seems and my oldest is
> > diagnosed on the autistic spectrum and so has additional struggles.
> >
> > I understand how quickly time passes and it seems that they got older
> > so quickly. I wish I didn't feel I have to fret about their futures
> > and vocations and could just relax about their learning.
> >
> > I explained to my oldest son in particular about how important
> > testing is if he wants to be accepted into a good school and he
> > seemed like he understood this and wants to work hard on academics to
> > prepare for the SAT. I felt guilty telling him this and wondered if
> > this were even the truth, but that is what I hear everywhere except
> > here. My mom also mentioned that many kids who do really well on
> > SATs are still not getting into the "Top" colleges. There are just
> > too many kids. So he could work his fanny off, miss many joys and
> > pleasures and still not gain anything from it.
> >
> > I would very much appreciate your thoughts about "academics" and
> > college.
> >
> > Thanks, Beth
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Beth Mouser

Wow--thanks so much to everyone for the comforting words and advice.
I feel much better! I really do. My son actually does want to
volunteer at the zoo and has applied. He has helped out 3 times at a
vet's office nearby and he has also been hanging out at our
neighbor's taxidermist shop. So he is doing some pretty cool
things. He said yesterday that he is turning his bedroom into a
zoologist office and has put posters up all over his room and
drawings he has made of various animal tracks,etc. Yesterday when
Grandma took him to the library, he came home with a pile of books on
animals and was reading them all afternoon and at bedtime.

I guess I need to stay away from the curriculum websites. I get
confused and tempted. I receive these brochures and packets in the
mail and sometimes I check them out. I was looking into classical
homeschooling and was dazzled by the talk of Latin improving SAT
scores and how important it is to read "The Great Books"...none of
which I have read. I myself went to our local state college and
received a bachelor's in communication. So I did not go to a "top"
school and as you all have surmised, don't really know much about
it. I do have several quick questions:

If you take the SAT more than once, is that reflected in any way?
Will the schools you are applying for know this? About how long does
it take to prep for the SAT if my kids don't have a whole lot of
formal schooling? It seems like it would take awhile to learn the
math particularly. If you score poorly in one area (such as math),
but you do well in another area or areas, will that be okay with some
schools or do they just look at the overall score?

I read on the Classical HS site, that most colleges require credits
in a foreign language. Will this be a problem for getting acceptance
into a state-level college?

I was thinking about it last night in bed, and I realized that a part
of me thinks it would be easier to have my kids sitting at home
reading texts and books (this dream of them studying independently
and doing workbooks) than it would be driving them around town to
various places for volunteer work, helping them to dig for answers,
etc. It may be the lazy part of me that wants the more traditional
homeschooling experience. I also have aspirations. I want to work
out everyday. Exercise is important to me and I haven't really been
able to get it done for quite awhile. It sometimes seems impossible
to balance the things I would like to do and also satisfy the desires
of my boys. Everyday my youngest is wanting to go somewhere and
check something out whether it be buying Pokemon cards or finding a
palm tree that will grow where we live, or telling me he wants to
paint on a canvas (all of these requests in the past 2 days). Boy, I
am really rambling so I think I'll quit now.

Thanks again,
Beth

- In [email protected], Julia <whatwouldjuliado@...>
wrote:
>
> As a current college student who went through the admissions process
> not too long ago (albeit with 3 years of standard public high school
> education behind me, so I wasn't really in the same boat), I'd like
to
> point out that there's a growing list of colleges that do not
require
> SAT scores. That list can be found here:
> http://www.fairtest.org/optional.htm
>
> I attend Hampshire College, an SAT-optional, private liberal arts
> school in Western Mass. Opened in 1970 as an experimenting
> instituion, Hampshire offers small classes, no exams, and no grades
> (instead we write and receive narrative evaluations). I have
several
> friends here who were homeschooled and/or unschooled, and they've
> found this to be a great environment, much more in line with their
> past educational experiences than a traditional college or
university.
> Hampshire's not the only no-grades school out there—Bennington,
> Marlboro, and Evergreen come to mind—and all of them have their
> different strengths and weaknesses...although, of course, I think
> Hampshire's the best!
>
> Hope this knowledge helps quell your worries, at least a tad.
>
> Julia
>
> P.S. In case you were curious, graduates from Hampshire, et al., can
> and do get into grad school, med school, etc., even with our lack of
> GPAs and crazy "non-traditional" transcripts. So, your future
> veterinarian would be good to go. These schools might not be the
best
> choice for your other son, however, if he wants a B.A. in
engineering;
> the diplomas they award are in the liberal arts with a concentration
> in whatever your course of study was—there are no majors.
>
>
>
>
> On 4/25/07, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
> > You can take the SAT more than once. You can find the best state
school for
> > what you want to do, move to that state, live there for a year,
get
> > residency and than apply to the school and get in and pay less
money.
> > University isn't really that hard to get into. They want your
money. And Su
> > is absolutely right. You are better off going to a state school
for many
> > things than you are going to a good name university.
> >
> > What if instead of looking at the goal of getting them into
university to
> > become engineers and zoologists what if you figured out ways that
they could
> > do engineering and zoology now? When I was in Belize I met a
herpatologist
> > who had gotten into working at a zoo before he'd ever gone to
university. He
> > shoveled manure at Memphis zoo (I think) and on his first day he
let the
> > elephants loose in the zoo. They kept him on and he is now their
curator of
> > reptiles and aquatics (after getting a few degrees at the
University of
> > Memphis) and was in Belize checking out the range of a couple of
the
> > tarantula species he'd discovered.
> >
> > You don't have to start at college. You can start right now. You
can get
> > some robotics kits or get a few subscriptions to some magazines
or buy the
> > lego robotics kit, if that's the kind of engineering he wants to
do.
> >
> > Maybe they are only interested in those things right now. Maybe
they won't
> > be interested in them when they are 18 or 25 or 32 or 56. I
wanted to be a
> > marine biologist when I was 13, that or an occultist. My mom was
willing to
> > buy a bunch of books on marine biology but not the Aleister
Crowley books
> > that I also wanted. Help them be what they want to be now. Help
them do what
> > they want to do now. See what your son wants to do now about his
zoology
> > goals, see if he wants to go to the zoo and see if he can
volunteer to work
> > there, or contact your local shelter and see if he can do
volunteer work
> > there. Or your vet. Get Gerald Durrell's book The Amateur
Naturalist and see
> > if your son is interested in exploring the world using Durrell's
approach,
> > which is more that of a collector as that is the era Durrell came
from.
> > There are cool free engineering games on the internet like here:
> > http://www.bridgebuilder-game.com/links.php or try
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/bamzooki/ for the BBC's Bamzooki guys,
an
> > engineering problem if ever there was one. And don't hold your
breath
> > waiting for them to become zoologists or vets or engineers. Just
help them
> > be that now, but don't be surprised if other ideas take their
fancy. The
> > world is full of some pretty cool and amazing things to explore.
> >
> > Schuyler
> > www.waynforth.blogspot.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Beth Mouser" <mouser4@...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 6:17 AM
> > Subject: [unschoolingbasics] worry creeping back in
> >
> >
> > > Hi everybody,
> > >
> > > Sorry to be negative and questioning, but I am again struggling
with
> > > unschooling. Both of my boys (11 and 13) have told me that
they want
> > > to go to college. My oldest says he wants to become a
zoologist or a
> > > veterinarian and since I have been unschooling him this year
(with
> > > the exception of math, which he does without much cajoling
anyway),
> > > he has learned a ton about animals on his own. I was pleasantly
> > > surprised and it is a great demonstration of how unschooling
can work
> > > as far as how much my son has learned. He particularly loves
animal
> > > classification. My younger son says he wants to become an
> > > engineer.
> > >
> > > I am worried that if we don't do more structured learning, they
will
> > > not do well on their SATs. BTW, we do not currently have a
community
> > > college where we live. I wonder if doing several hours of work
with
> > > regard to spelling, vocabulary, and reading would boost SAT
scores
> > > and help them get into a good college. I hate to talk like
that, but
> > > I am just being honest about how I'm thinking.
> > >
> > > It seems like the SAT is the end-all be-all to what doors will
be
> > > open to certain vocations. Are there situations where they
would be
> > > accepted without the high SAT score? Also, do they really need
to go
> > > to a "Good" top college in order to become a zoologist,
engineer, or
> > > veterinarian? They have such lofty goals it seems and my
oldest is
> > > diagnosed on the autistic spectrum and so has additional
struggles.
> > >
> > > I understand how quickly time passes and it seems that they got
older
> > > so quickly. I wish I didn't feel I have to fret about their
futures
> > > and vocations and could just relax about their learning.
> > >
> > > I explained to my oldest son in particular about how important
> > > testing is if he wants to be accepted into a good school and he
> > > seemed like he understood this and wants to work hard on
academics to
> > > prepare for the SAT. I felt guilty telling him this and
wondered if
> > > this were even the truth, but that is what I hear everywhere
except
> > > here. My mom also mentioned that many kids who do really well
on
> > > SATs are still not getting into the "Top" colleges. There are
just
> > > too many kids. So he could work his fanny off, miss many joys
and
> > > pleasures and still not gain anything from it.
> > >
> > > I would very much appreciate your thoughts about "academics" and
> > > college.
> > >
> > > Thanks, Beth
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky

Actually to get into vet school his experience( working with animals in many levels ) and interests ( like farm animals-cows ,pigs) are more likely to get him in to vet school than good grades and wanting to be a small animals ( cats and dogs) vet.
There are thousands of 4.0 kids trying for vet school every year. They all want to be a small animal vet.
There are less and less large animal vets every years. There is a big shortage of them.
Alex ( who now lives in a Dairy farm and who was once married to a Veterinarian that was involved in many things like that- and who's former step kid is in vet school)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Beth Mouser" <mouser4@...>
wrote:
>> I realized that a part
> of me thinks it would be easier to have my kids sitting at home
> reading texts and books (this dream of them studying independently
> and doing workbooks) than it would be driving them around town to
> various places for volunteer work, helping them to dig for answers,
> etc. It may be the lazy part of me that wants the more traditional
> homeschooling experience.

If you want an antidote, find a support group for homeschooling moms,
either irl or online. After you've read/heard a few hundred complaints
about how unmotivated everyone's kids are and all the ways other moms
threaten, cajole and coax their kids to do their "schoolwork"
unschooling looks a whole lot better.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Nancy

-- Hello Beth,
Kids don't necessarily have to take the SAT - they can take the
ACT instead, which includes history and science (I believe), NOT JUST
English and Math. I think it would be a better rounded test for
unschoolers to contend with.
Just a thought! :)

-Nancy




- In [email protected], "Beth Mouser" <mouser4@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> Sorry to be negative and questioning, but I am again struggling
with
> unschooling. Both of my boys (11 and 13) have told me that they
want
> to go to college. My oldest says he wants to become a zoologist or
a
> veterinarian and since I have been unschooling him this year (with
> the exception of math, which he does without much cajoling anyway),
> he has learned a ton about animals on his own. I was pleasantly
> surprised and it is a great demonstration of how unschooling can
work
> as far as how much my son has learned. He particularly loves
animal
> classification. My younger son says he wants to become an
> engineer.
>
> I am worried that if we don't do more structured learning, they
will
> not do well on their SATs. BTW, we do not currently have a
community
> college where we live. I wonder if doing several hours of work
with
> regard to spelling, vocabulary, and reading would boost SAT scores
> and help them get into a good college. I hate to talk like that,
but
> I am just being honest about how I'm thinking.
>
> It seems like the SAT is the end-all be-all to what doors will be
> open to certain vocations. Are there situations where they would
be
> accepted without the high SAT score? Also, do they really need to
go
> to a "Good" top college in order to become a zoologist, engineer,
or
> veterinarian? They have such lofty goals it seems and my oldest is
> diagnosed on the autistic spectrum and so has additional
struggles.
>
> I understand how quickly time passes and it seems that they got
older
> so quickly. I wish I didn't feel I have to fret about their
futures
> and vocations and could just relax about their learning.
>
> I explained to my oldest son in particular about how important
> testing is if he wants to be accepted into a good school and he
> seemed like he understood this and wants to work hard on academics
to
> prepare for the SAT. I felt guilty telling him this and wondered
if
> this were even the truth, but that is what I hear everywhere except
> here. My mom also mentioned that many kids who do really well on
> SATs are still not getting into the "Top" colleges. There are just
> too many kids. So he could work his fanny off, miss many joys and
> pleasures and still not gain anything from it.
>
> I would very much appreciate your thoughts about "academics" and
> college.
>
> Thanks, Beth
>

chandelle'

i took the ACT in my senior year and did find it to be a more well-rounded
test. i took it because i was afraid to take the SATs because i was no good
at math and there was SO MUCH math in the SAT that i felt completely
unprepared for. i got perfect scores on my ACTs without hardly attending
class at all. i think anyone with a pretty well-rounded self-education
could pass it easily.

On 4/25/07, Nancy <threeboorads@...> wrote:
>
> -- Hello Beth,
> Kids don't necessarily have to take the SAT - they can take the
> ACT instead, which includes history and science (I believe), NOT JUST
> English and Math. I think it would be a better rounded test for
> unschoolers to contend with.
> Just a thought! :)
>
> -Nancy
>
>
>
>
> - In [email protected], "Beth Mouser" <mouser4@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > Sorry to be negative and questioning, but I am again struggling
> with
> > unschooling. Both of my boys (11 and 13) have told me that they
> want
> > to go to college. My oldest says he wants to become a zoologist or
> a
> > veterinarian and since I have been unschooling him this year (with
> > the exception of math, which he does without much cajoling anyway),
> > he has learned a ton about animals on his own. I was pleasantly
> > surprised and it is a great demonstration of how unschooling can
> work
> > as far as how much my son has learned. He particularly loves
> animal
> > classification. My younger son says he wants to become an
> > engineer.
> >
> > I am worried that if we don't do more structured learning, they
> will
> > not do well on their SATs. BTW, we do not currently have a
> community
> > college where we live. I wonder if doing several hours of work
> with
> > regard to spelling, vocabulary, and reading would boost SAT scores
> > and help them get into a good college. I hate to talk like that,
> but
> > I am just being honest about how I'm thinking.
> >
> > It seems like the SAT is the end-all be-all to what doors will be
> > open to certain vocations. Are there situations where they would
> be
> > accepted without the high SAT score? Also, do they really need to
> go
> > to a "Good" top college in order to become a zoologist, engineer,
> or
> > veterinarian? They have such lofty goals it seems and my oldest is
> > diagnosed on the autistic spectrum and so has additional
> struggles.
> >
> > I understand how quickly time passes and it seems that they got
> older
> > so quickly. I wish I didn't feel I have to fret about their
> futures
> > and vocations and could just relax about their learning.
> >
> > I explained to my oldest son in particular about how important
> > testing is if he wants to be accepted into a good school and he
> > seemed like he understood this and wants to work hard on academics
> to
> > prepare for the SAT. I felt guilty telling him this and wondered
> if
> > this were even the truth, but that is what I hear everywhere except
> > here. My mom also mentioned that many kids who do really well on
> > SATs are still not getting into the "Top" colleges. There are just
> > too many kids. So he could work his fanny off, miss many joys and
> > pleasures and still not gain anything from it.
> >
> > I would very much appreciate your thoughts about "academics" and
> > college.
> >
> > Thanks, Beth
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
"Play is the highest form of research."
-Albert Einstein


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Su Penn

I was going to respond to some specific things, but realized I just
want to say: there's no deadline for any of this. As unschoolers, we
don't need to assume that our kids have to be "college-ready" at 18.
Suppose one of my kids decides at 17 that he wants to attend a
college that has a foreign language requirement. He could do four
semesters of a foreign language at a community college in just 16
months if he went to school year-round. Or he could attend a summer
immersive language program--I think it's the University of Vermont
that has some acclaimed ones--and I bet that'd fulfill the
requirement as well,and would probably be more useful in terms of
developing fluency.. It's similar with anything else--if a young
adult discovers she needs some math skills, more biology, or a better
familiarity with the terminology of poetry scansion, there are many
ways to learn that. If somebody needs to get ready for the SAT, there
are any number of ways to do that, from studying math on their own to
working through a prep book to taking a class at Kaplan or the
Princeton Review.

I was "college-ready" at 17 and graduated at 21 and still ended up
back in college in my 30s to study something I loved. My partner
returned to college in his 30s as well to change careers. Our closest
friend finally graduated from college in his mid-30s (with honors!)
after flunking out twice in his 20s. Life is long.

I'm a worrier, too. My partner always says to me, "There's plenty of
time to worry later!" So I try to procrastinate and put off the
worrying for a few years. With any luck, I'll never get around to it.

Su

Beth Mouser

-Su, thanks for sharing with me. I really liked the line that there
is always time to worry later. I am going to try to remember that
and repeat it daily.

Thanks again everyone for your comments. I did not know there were
colleges that didn't grade or test traditionally. That is really
cool! I think the ACT sounds like it would be a better fit, but who
knows 5 years from now for sure...I honestly don't remember taking
either test and I went to our state college. I didn't go until
several years after graduation but I am still thinking it would have
been required. The past is getting murkier!

Beth

-- In [email protected], Su Penn <supenn@...> wrote:
>
> I was going to respond to some specific things, but realized I
just
> want to say: there's no deadline for any of this. As unschoolers,
we
> don't need to assume that our kids have to be "college-ready" at
18.
> Suppose one of my kids decides at 17 that he wants to attend a
> college that has a foreign language requirement. He could do four
> semesters of a foreign language at a community college in just 16
> months if he went to school year-round. Or he could attend a
summer
> immersive language program--I think it's the University of Vermont
> that has some acclaimed ones--and I bet that'd fulfill the
> requirement as well,and would probably be more useful in terms of
> developing fluency.. It's similar with anything else--if a young
> adult discovers she needs some math skills, more biology, or a
better
> familiarity with the terminology of poetry scansion, there are
many
> ways to learn that. If somebody needs to get ready for the SAT,
there
> are any number of ways to do that, from studying math on their own
to
> working through a prep book to taking a class at Kaplan or the
> Princeton Review.
>
> I was "college-ready" at 17 and graduated at 21 and still ended up
> back in college in my 30s to study something I loved. My partner
> returned to college in his 30s as well to change careers. Our
closest
> friend finally graduated from college in his mid-30s (with
honors!)
> after flunking out twice in his 20s. Life is long.
>
> I'm a worrier, too. My partner always says to me, "There's plenty
of
> time to worry later!" So I try to procrastinate and put off the
> worrying for a few years. With any luck, I'll never get around to
it.
>
> Su
>

Sylvia Toyama

honestly don't remember taking
either test and I went to our state college. I didn't go until
several years after graduation but I am still thinking it would have
been required. The past is getting murkier!


****

It depends on how and where you go to college. I've heard that the requirements are different (and easier to meet) for 'adult' enrollees, meaning those who don't go straight from high school. I know that the community college here in Albuquerque only requires that one be 18 and take the assessment test upon signing up for classes. It's not an entrance exam, but a placement to let you choose the appropriate level of classes. Most community colleges only care that you can pay -- qualifications are your own business.

Sylvia


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: mouser4@...


I felt guilty telling him this and wondered if
this were even the truth, but that is what I hear everywhere except
here.

-=-=-=-=-

That's because everyone else has a stake in it! <bwg>

--=-=-=-=-=-=-

My mom also mentioned that many kids who do really well on
SATs are still not getting into the "Top" colleges. There are just
too many kids.

-=-=-==-

Let's pretend that *you* are the Director of Admissions at a college.

Four thousand kids have applied to your school this summer. You have to
weed through them ALL, so you decide to sort first by SAT scores. All
those under 1200 are automatically out. All those over need a second
look-see---but you keep stumbling over these TEN that came with no SAT
scores, so you put them aside. Three are thirty-somethings who have
worked in their field-of-study for 15-20 years. Four are from foreign
countries. Two play basketball like Shaq. And one is "unschooled."

This ONE has no SAT scores, but he has submitted a portfolio of his
life-to-date. It's full of lots and lots of travel---all over the US
and many foreign countries. It has letters from several employers
saying what a self-starter and hard-worker he is. It has an enviable
list of books he's read. It has a photo-journal of the work he's done
ON HIS OWN in his chosen field of study (robotics or dissections or
costume design or whatever). He's included all his published works as
well as flyers from all the places his artwork has been exhibited. He
has a CD of himself playing the music he has written. It even has a
letter from the Dean of his intended course of study because they've
met "on the outside" and he's impressed the dean enough to go to bat
for him.

Do you simply toss this application because it doesn't include SAT
scores, or would you consider inviting this young man for an interview?
Just to see?

"Too many kids" simply don't have the life experiences unschoolers can
have. It's time to WOW colleges with what unschoolers have done and can
do!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


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