Katharine Wise

We have an appointment Monday afternoon with a new therapist who was recommended by one of my co-leaders. Originally I was going to go with just my 7yo ds, but now I'm planning to take the whole family (dh, 11yo ds, and 4yo ds). While 7yo is the one who is chronically irritable (except for the weeks when he isn't!), aggressive, and has rages, it's definitely a whole-family issue at this point. As soon as any of the kids is the least bit bothered by someone, it explodes into angry shouting, "Be quiet! You're too loud! You're EVIL!" Also, I think 11yo's physical impulsiveness -- he's spending a lot of time trying to prove his "alpha-dog" status -- is often a trigger for 7yo's aggression toward 4yo. 11yo's not "mean" the way 7yo is, but he's not good at respecting "stop" -- especially some weeks.

Anyway, I'm a little concerned about helping the therapist understand that we're not looking for "1-2-3 Magic" or behavior-mod type solutions. I want to get to the root of what's causing their (especially 7yo's) frustrations, and figure out how we can help them communicate and meet their needs better. At this point, I think we need an outsider (therapist) and a designated time and place to help do this. I guess I'm afraid we need help but that the therapist (or the next 7 we try:-) will pressure us to use time-out (especially for the aggression) or other "control" methods we aren't comfortable with. We did use "time-in" for the aggression for about 6 weeks last summer. The aggression got worse, then improved, then seemed to slowly be increasing again, but I'm not sure. It definitely increased when we stopped the "time-ins". But we also were seeing a lot of, "He pinched me, he needs a time-out!" -- child looking for retribution, that I wasn't comfortable with either.
(Although, maybe I would be more comfortable with that than the aggression and irritability we're seeing now.)

Oh, and my boys aren't exactly thrilled about this appointment. 11 yo's response was a whiny, "I don't want to..." And 7yo's was, "NO. I'm not going. I won't go." I'm sure 4yo's will echo 7yo's, but I haven't brought it up with him yet. But this is not a decision I think the boys are able to make, and having done some phone therapy sessions before, I also feel that we need a therapist who can actually meet and know the children, not just dh and myself.

Anyway, does anyone have any experience with or thoughts for approaching the therapist? Or, alternatively, are we just crazy?

Katharine






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Lisa McAlister

Hi Katharine, I can sympathize with your frustration--my 3 kids are about
the same ages as yours, and we have days like you describe--maybe not as
chronic, but there are those days where I question myself about whether I'm
doing things "right." I mean, I must be doing something wrong if everything
is sooooo chaotic! And I have been parenting as non-coercively as possible
since the birth of my 10 yo, so mine have never really had a lot of no's or
limits.

What I wanted to suggest was something my sister recently discovered. She
has a very aggressive 4 yo, who has been that way since he became mobile.
She had twins shortly after his 2nd b-day and his aggression and frustration
really accellerated after that. She found herself yelling and "going off"
on the kids a lot, and decided to try a naturopath. She put her on some
liver cleansing herbs, and within a couple of weeks, my sister could not get
over how much less angry and like a "time bomb" she felt. She felt able to
remain in control of her emotions even when the kids were falling apart.
After a couple of months of this, she put the 4 yo on the liver herbs and
found that his aggression greatly diminished and he was so much more mellow,
less jealous of the twins, and loving toward her (my sister). It's like the
toxins were just not being efficiently purged by his liver, and the result
was all this anger and aggression.

Don't know if that helps, but may be worth checking into. I am hoping to
check into this for myself after I have my baby, as I have "rage" tendencies
as well.

FWIW,
Lisa

>>While 7yo is the one who is chronically irritable (except for the weeks
when he isn't!), aggressive, and has rages, it's definitely a whole-family
issue at this point. As soon as any of the kids is the least bit bothered
by someone, it explodes into angry shouting, "Be quiet! You're too loud!
You're EVIL!" <<

chandelle'

that's so weird, i was going to suggst a naturopath too. because they treat
the whole person, they often do casual therapy.

On 4/14/07, Lisa McAlister <lisamcalister@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Katharine, I can sympathize with your frustration--my 3 kids are about
> the same ages as yours, and we have days like you describe--maybe not as
> chronic, but there are those days where I question myself about whether
> I'm
> doing things "right." I mean, I must be doing something wrong if
> everything
> is sooooo chaotic! And I have been parenting as non-coercively as
> possible
> since the birth of my 10 yo, so mine have never really had a lot of no's
> or
> limits.
>
> What I wanted to suggest was something my sister recently discovered. She
> has a very aggressive 4 yo, who has been that way since he became mobile.
> She had twins shortly after his 2nd b-day and his aggression and
> frustration
> really accellerated after that. She found herself yelling and "going off"
> on the kids a lot, and decided to try a naturopath. She put her on some
> liver cleansing herbs, and within a couple of weeks, my sister could not
> get
> over how much less angry and like a "time bomb" she felt. She felt able
> to
> remain in control of her emotions even when the kids were falling apart.
> After a couple of months of this, she put the 4 yo on the liver herbs and
> found that his aggression greatly diminished and he was so much more
> mellow,
> less jealous of the twins, and loving toward her (my sister). It's like
> the
> toxins were just not being efficiently purged by his liver, and the result
> was all this anger and aggression.
>
> Don't know if that helps, but may be worth checking into. I am hoping to
> check into this for myself after I have my baby, as I have "rage"
> tendencies
> as well.
>
> FWIW,
> Lisa
>
> >>While 7yo is the one who is chronically irritable (except for the weeks
> when he isn't!), aggressive, and has rages, it's definitely a whole-family
> issue at this point. As soon as any of the kids is the least bit bothered
> by someone, it explodes into angry shouting, "Be quiet! You're too loud!
> You're EVIL!" <<
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
"Play is the highest form of research."
-Albert Einstein


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky

I would go to one of Naomi Aldort's family retreat. Someone that knows
unschooling.
Alex

----- Original Message -----
From: "Katharine Wise" <katharinewise@...>
To: "Unschooling Basics" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:55 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: therapy


>
> We have an appointment Monday afternoon with a new therapist who was
> recommended by one of my co-leaders. Originally I was going to go with
> just my 7yo ds, but now I'm planning to take the whole family (dh, 11yo
> ds, and 4yo ds). While 7yo is the one who is chronically irritable
> (except for the weeks when he isn't!), aggressive, and has rages, it's
> definitely a whole-family issue at this point. As soon as any of the kids
> is the least bit bothered by someone, it explodes into angry shouting, "Be
> quiet! You're too loud! You're EVIL!" Also, I think 11yo's physical
> impulsiveness -- he's spending a lot of time trying to prove his
> "alpha-dog" status -- is often a trigger for 7yo's aggression toward 4yo.
> 11yo's not "mean" the way 7yo is, but he's not good at respecting
> "stop" -- especially some weeks.
>
> Anyway, I'm a little concerned about helping the therapist understand that
> we're not looking for "1-2-3 Magic" or behavior-mod type solutions. I
> want to get to the root of what's causing their (especially 7yo's)
> frustrations, and figure out how we can help them communicate and meet
> their needs better. At this point, I think we need an outsider
> (therapist) and a designated time and place to help do this. I guess I'm
> afraid we need help but that the therapist (or the next 7 we try:-) will
> pressure us to use time-out (especially for the aggression) or other
> "control" methods we aren't comfortable with. We did use "time-in" for
> the aggression for about 6 weeks last summer. The aggression got worse,
> then improved, then seemed to slowly be increasing again, but I'm not
> sure. It definitely increased when we stopped the "time-ins". But we
> also were seeing a lot of, "He pinched me, he needs a time-out!" -- child
> looking for retribution, that I wasn't comfortable with either.
> (Although, maybe I would be more comfortable with that than the aggression
> and irritability we're seeing now.)
>
> Oh, and my boys aren't exactly thrilled about this appointment. 11 yo's
> response was a whiny, "I don't want to..." And 7yo's was, "NO. I'm not
> going. I won't go." I'm sure 4yo's will echo 7yo's, but I haven't
> brought it up with him yet. But this is not a decision I think the boys
> are able to make, and having done some phone therapy sessions before, I
> also feel that we need a therapist who can actually meet and know the
> children, not just dh and myself.
>
> Anyway, does anyone have any experience with or thoughts for approaching
> the therapist? Or, alternatively, are we just crazy?
>
> Katharine
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

katharinewise

Except they cost nearly $1000 and she lives on the opposite side of
the country so I would have another 1-2 thousand in plane fares for
the 5 of us -- none of which insurance would help cover:-( And I also
think we need more than a weekend.

Katharine

--- In [email protected], "Brian & Alexandra
Polikowsky" <polykow@...> wrote:
>
> I would go to one of Naomi Aldort's family retreat. Someone that knows
> unschooling.
> Alex

Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky

Maybe contact her , Jan Hunt, Scott Noelle and ask them about a referral????
Alex


----- Original Message -----
From: katharinewise
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 11:14 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: therapy


Except they cost nearly $1000 and she lives on the opposite side of
the country so I would have another 1-2 thousand in plane fares for
the 5 of us -- none of which insurance would help cover:-( And I also
think we need more than a weekend.

Katharine

--- In [email protected], "Brian & Alexandra
Polikowsky" <polykow@...> wrote:
>
> I would go to one of Naomi Aldort's family retreat. Someone that knows
> unschooling.
> Alex





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky

Katherine,
I know you have read Naomi. This articles, her book, and counseling has helped me a lot ( and still working on it!) when my ds is frustrated playing his video games and lashes out at me screaming that he wants to kill me or for me to kill myself ( he will be five end of June).
He is a very loving kid but thsi used to drive me crazy and make me explode.
Here it is and forgive me if you have already read it:
http://naomialdort.com/articles4.html

Alex


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachel Salavon

I don't have a lot of advice to give. But something that helped me
feel better in the midst of a lot of turbulence at home was the
book "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie. It's actually what a lot of
Naomi Aldort's parenting advice is based on. I was able to do
written "therapy" about my own thinking about my kids. Although not
the same situation, it had a lot to do with my oldest ds's rage and
my younger ds's provocation of that rage.

I know this won't directly affect your son's rage. But coming to a
peaceful place in your mind - that is, dealing with your own stress
about it - in the middle of the chaos can help you more clearly see
what you need to do for him.

My ds and I have had many talks about anger. He feels so helpless
to control his anger when he gets worked up to a rage. He feels out
of control. But he feels like he should be able to control himself -
so he is conflicted and frustrated with himself. And he even feels
like he is a bad person because of it. I have pieced this together
from several little conversations with him about it because he does
not like to talk about it. Last summer he broke our sliding glass
door with his heel in a fit of anger. It was after that that I
started working on my own stress and anger and fears - writing it
all down. I can't say that this one thing fixed the problem. And
ds still gets extremely angry in certain situations. But it is no
longer a daily event.

I hope you are able to find a way to work through this. I just
can't imagine how TOs and other means of controling would make
things better -- especially if you have already made the switch from
TOs to nonmanipulative parenting. Every time my 8yo is angry with
his brother, it's because he thinks he should be able to control
him. And I think it is a direct result of me trying to control him
for the first 6 years of his life.

Good luck, Rachel



>
> Anyway, does anyone have any experience with or thoughts for
approaching the therapist? Or, alternatively, are we just crazy?
>
> Katharine
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

katharinewise

--- In [email protected], "Rachel Salavon"
<rachelsalavon@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have a lot of advice to give. But something that helped me
> feel better in the midst of a lot of turbulence at home was the
> book "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie. It's actually what a lot of
> Naomi Aldort's parenting advice is based on. I was able to do
> written "therapy" about my own thinking about my kids. Although not
> the same situation, it had a lot to do with my oldest ds's rage and
> my younger ds's provocation of that rage.
>
> I know this won't directly affect your son's rage. But coming to a
> peaceful place in your mind - that is, dealing with your own stress
> about it - in the middle of the chaos can help you more clearly see
> what you need to do for him.

Thanks, Rachel. I have been thinking recently that my own stress
level worrying about the rages probably isn't helping!

> My ds and I have had many talks about anger. He feels so helpless
> to control his anger when he gets worked up to a rage. He feels out
> of control. But he feels like he should be able to control himself
> so he is conflicted and frustrated with himself.

That's an interesting insight. My son really doesn't talk about it at
all, but I do wonder at this point how much his rages are connected to
the fact that he already feels bad about himself for not being able to
control his anger.


> I hope you are able to find a way to work through this. I just
> can't imagine how TOs and other means of controling would make
> things better -- especially if you have already made the switch from
> TOs to nonmanipulative parenting.

Just to clarify, I only did the time-outs (time-in, technically, since
I'd hold them in my lap) for about 6 weeks last summer. I'd always
been opposed to them, but I finally got so desperate I decided I had
to at least try the conventional route. The closest I'd done before
was when he was littler if he would hit (which was rare before
5.5years), I would pick him up and remove him and talk about
alternatives he could do next time instead of hitting.

> Every time my 8yo is angry with
> his brother, it's because he thinks he should be able to control
> him. And I think it is a direct result of me trying to control him
> for the first 6 years of his life.

That's a great insight, although I do wonder if there isn't something
innate in wanting to control others just as we like to control the
rest of our environment.

Thanks for your response, Rachel.

Katharine

Melissa

Hi Katherine,
Just wanted to give hugs for tomorrow. I know a lot where you are coming from, Josh has
in the past been very violent, which was a shock coming from a child who always appeared
to be very calm and quiet. I would say that we're very lucky to have the psychologist that
we do. She diagnosed Breanna originally and when Josh was having so many problems, we
asked her for help as well. She has been very supportive of us homeschooling, and then
unschooling.

The truth is that you do want his behavior to change (in reference to behavioral
modification) , and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Hurting people verbally or physically
is not okay. What you don't want is to use a source of power, positive (bribes) or negative
(punishments) to do so. Josh has come a long way with our therapist doing this, and the
problem we had originally was looking at the source. In the end that isn't the end-all
answer. It's helpful to know, yes, it was good for us to know that Josh has an actual wiring
problem in his brain, and it was helpful for OUR processing of the situation, but it didn't
change him one bit. What did help was Dr M being able to give him the babysteps that he
needed to succeed. We couldn't just say, you can't abuse people. We started with, when
you feel the urge to choke your sister come find me right away. We stayed very close, we
found alternatives, we changed our lifestyle to make it easier for him to make the safer
choices. We added a lot of supports. He has a visual wall chart of options. He has my very
close attention. he has a promise from me that BEFORE there is a struggle that I will drop
everthing to help him regain control.

It helps that Josh has his OWN time. I was concerned when you said that you chose to take
the whole family. It might be better to work on the emergency issues right now, some
specific supports for him and let the 7yo have personal time to work on issues. Especially
since the other kids don't want to go, and he doesn't want to go, it might be easier to
compromise with him (This is really important for me that we do together, what can I do to
make this okay for you?) Just having time alone with mom may make it a better deal.

Good luck tomorrow. Remember that you aren't a 'patient' you are a consumer. You have
the right to say, I don't want this, I'd like that. Can you do that or would you rather refer us
to another person?
Melissa
--- In [email protected], Katharine Wise <katharinewise@...> wrote:
>
> We have an appointment Monday afternoon with a new therapist who was recommended
by one of my co-leaders. Originally I was going to go with just my 7yo ds, but now I'm
planning to take the whole family (dh, 11yo ds, and 4yo ds).

katharinewise

Thanks, Melissa, that was truly very helpful. Actually, I've printed
it out and I'm taking it with me in case I need help explaining what I
want!

I'm taking the whole family because I want her to at least meet
everyone and see what the mix is like. I'm increasingly realizing
that while 7yo's anger is mostly directed toward 4yo, it's often
(usually?) triggered by 11yo who is extremely energetic and impulsive.
Maybe later I'll end up taking each of them alternately. I don't
know. I also want her to meet dh and we have no-one to babysit for us.

(By the way, I also thought your post on unschooling on a budget/large
family/close spacing was great.)

Katharine

staci senatore

--- In [email protected], "Rachel Salavon"
<rachelsalavon@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have a lot of advice to give. But something that helped me
> feel better in the midst of a lot of turbulence at home was the
> book "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie. It's actually what a lot of
> Naomi Aldort's parenting advice is based on. I was able to do
> written "therapy" about my own thinking about my kids. Although
not
> the same situation, it had a lot to do with my oldest ds's rage and
> my younger ds's provocation of that rage.
>
> I know this won't directly affect your son's rage. But coming to a
> peaceful place in your mind - that is, dealing with your own stress
> about it - in the middle of the chaos can help you more clearly see
> what you need to do for him.
>
> My ds and I have had many talks about anger. He feels so helpless
> to control his anger when he gets worked up to a rage. He feels
out
> of control. But he feels like he should be able to control
himself -
> so he is conflicted and frustrated with himself. And he even
feels
> like he is a bad person because of it. I have pieced this together
> from several little conversations with him about it because he does
> not like to talk about it. Last summer he broke our sliding glass
> door with his heel in a fit of anger. It was after that that I
> started working on my own stress and anger and fears - writing it
> all down. I can't say that this one thing fixed the problem. And
> ds still gets extremely angry in certain situations. But it is no
> longer a daily event.
>
> I hope you are able to find a way to work through this. I just
> can't imagine how TOs and other means of controling would make
> things better -- especially if you have already made the switch
from
> TOs to nonmanipulative parenting. Every time my 8yo is angry with
> his brother, it's because he thinks he should be able to control
> him. And I think it is a direct result of me trying to control him
> for the first 6 years of his life.
>
> Good luck, Rachel
>
>
>
> >
> > Anyway, does anyone have any experience with or thoughts for
> approaching the therapist? Or, alternatively, are we just crazy?
> >
> > Katharine
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
Funny you should bring up Byron Katie. My mom just told me about her
website and it is great! You can watch videos of her working with
different people on different stresses in their lives. You can also
download the worksheets and do the work yourself. It is free, it is
about self-discovery and being responsible for our own thoughts and
feelings. The website is www.thework.com

Staci

pamela svec

There is a non cohersive, gentle treatment that is
truly awesome.It is called EFT (emotional freedom
technique) It works for so many things and you can
learn to do it yourself for FREE! Please look at Gary
Criag's website called :www.emofree.com
Here is an excerpt from the child sub site on how a
child was shown EFT and how it worked for him for his
rage. It was at his school...but would be even easier
in a home setting. The "tapping" refers to the actual
treatment which consists of tapping on certain energy
meridians while stating things verbally. It seems like
it cannot work...BUT IT DOES. I have used it for so
many things it is unbelievable! Please read:
Pam

Hi Everyone,

Ann Adams shares with us this touching story of
"Brandon." Copy this one. It is ideal to give to
parents and teachers that must deal with "unruly
children."

Hugs, Gary

P.S. A thank you to Shari Snow whose work made this
story possible.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


By Ann Adams

Sometimes our very best teachers are the children. The
following story is certainly one of those ‘a little
child shall lead them’ varieties. This seven year old
not only proselytizes for tapping but has also written
his own testimonial. My thanks go to Shari Snow who
currently volunteers in a school setting in Lexington,
NC, for sharing her work with 'Brandon'.

The first day Shari met Brandon she was told he was
headed for a self contained class for students with
emotional/behavioral problems. Brandon had experience
difficulty since the day he entered school 2.5 years
ago. He was considered "at-risk" before entering
school.

During the current school year there had not been a
day that he had not been sent to the principal’s
office. This day he had just trashed his classroom and
was working on trashing the principal’s office in
anger. He continued to throw things as Shari talked to
him about why he was so mad. When he realized she ‘got
it’, and stopped a moment to breathe, Shari stretched
out her hands and asked him to show how angry he was
with his hands. He stretched them out as far as he
could (indicating maximum anger). [Ann’s Note: Without
good rapport you get nowhere. The child must see you
as different from the other lecturing adults in his or
her environment.]

Shari sat down on the floor in the office and said,
“This looks really silly but just do what I am doing.”
Brandon stopped the ‘tantrum’, sat down, and began to
follow the tapping. She tapped with him one round
before adding a set up statement for the second round:
"Even though I am really mad and nobody will listen to
me, I am still a really good kid who people should
listen to."

Two rounds later, when asked how angry he was, Brandon
put his hands together (indicating little or no
anger). The school counselor watching this
transformation could not believe it. She described it
as "watching the anger melt away". Brandon and Shari
talked some more about the issue that caused the
outburst and then, together, they made a plan for the
future. When it was time for Brandon to return to
class, he asked, “Can I tap at home when I get mad
too?” This child understood the power of this process
in 5 minutes! He ‘got it’ quickly and made it a part
of his life.

Shari writes: “Brandon is now a seven year old
ambassador of energy therapies. He is tapping on his
own and is showing classmates how to tap. He has
people around him interested and looking for more
information. He is teaching me lessons on how to ‘get
the message’ across. He has opened doors I did not
expect to open in the conservative rural community I
live in. This little guy deserves ALL OF THE CREDIT.
Me? I got lucky - what a wonderful teacher to learn
from.”

Brandon has not been back to the principal’s office.
Several weeks after the first tapping experience
Brandon told Shari he was “ready to tell the story for
my friends.” In the words of a seven year old, here is
Brandon’s version of using energy therapies.

THE TAPPING STUFF

By Brandon (as told to Ms. S)

It makes the bad stuff not hurt as much.

They look at me funny. But now they know why I do it.

My friend got over his dog dying by tapping.

I showed him how to help his heart.

He told his mom to do it and she thought it was
stupid.

I told him to do it anyways, just not let her see it.

He made his hands get smaller when Ms. S helped him

Ms. Lin (the counselor) reminds me to tap when I am
mad.

I can tap in my classroom or ask to go see Ms. Lin.

I am teaching Ms. Lin how to tap.

She likes to tap by her nose. I like my forehead.

I like school now because I am good.

I got a treat from the principal for being good.

I never did that before.

My teachers did not like me because I was bad.

I think my teacher likes me now that I am good.

I think that is enough.

Oh yeah– I do the tapping at home when Nanna yells at
me.

Shari writes that “In six weeks time, this child can
say – I like school now because I am good! His teacher
insists that it is a miracle – I insist it is a very
powerful message in the worth of all souls –
regardless.”

Great work Shari! And hugs to all the Brandon's of the
world.

Ann Adams




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