Julie

I've been primarily lurking around here for a bit now... taking in all the wonderful information and thoughtful, insightful posts... and before I ask my own questions, I just want to thank you all for being such a nifty community and for being so willing to share. :)

I'm the very fortunate momma of one amazing little guy named Keiler. He's now 3. He's never been to daycare or preschool... and we've been seriously considering unschooling for the past couple of months. It sums up how we seem to live now and I don't think any of us really want to stop living that way just because he turns 5 and it's 'time' to send him somewhere.

We have a somewhat unique family situation (aren't they all?) in that I am divorced and living with a wonderful guy. Kei's dad is really involved with him and sees him 2 or 3 times a week- and currently lives within walking distance of our house. His dad and my boyfriend are very supportive about the idea of homeschooling, though I feel that his dad is a little scared of really committing to homeschooling and is really unsure of unschooling. I've offered up tons of literature (John Holt, Pat Farenga, David Albert, John Taylor Gatto, and the list goes on) and websites (Sandra Dodd's and Joyce Fetteroll's specifically) in order for him to get a feel of it, how it isn't really much different than how we all live now, but this was his latest comment on it all: "I guess this is really the core of my concern to homeschooling.Ultimately I think that it is important to get outside input on how your child is developing and learning and how you are parenting. Not that I believe
that teachers are perfect either." I did ask him why he feels that we need to have others validate our parenting and why he thinks that other people would know his child better than us... and he hasn't answered me yet. I was wondering if anyone here has any suggestions as to how to help him get past this need to have other people judge and evaluate our son... and us. What really confuses me about all of this is that even before Kei was born we had seriously contemplated sending him to the Albany Free School. I was a special education teacher prior to Kei's birth (and man was I burning out being in the 'system' and seeing how horrible the system was to kids... I got into teaching thinking I could change things, I could make a difference... and I realized I couldn't change the system from within... but I digress). I was researching alternative education in our area (we're not from up here originally) and was fascinated with the philosophies involved in the Free School... and
shared that info with Kei's dad. And he really seemed to embrace it. Kei was born with the helped of a doula from their Family Life Center and we used to go to their birthing groups and later, their parent groups. It's a very child-led philosophy... so why would that be ok while unschooling would require some sort of evaluation? Am I missing something in this? Is it simply that, if Kei went to the Free School other people could give us input about him and we wouldn't just be relying on Kei to let us know how he is doing? Anyway... I'd love some outside perspectives, thoughts, questions, suggestions... whatever you've got. :)

And my other question is my own personal concern about unschooling (it would apply to any form of homeschooling, actually). I am an introvert. I am comfortable going weeks only talking to and seeing my son and my boyfriend. Kei seems to be an extrovert. He thrives on social interaction. When I recently came down with a nasty stomach virus and we weren't able to go to friends houses for a little while, Kei stated emphatically "I won't ever see my friends again!" and "I want someone to play with me. I don't have any friends!". I know this was frustration at the situation we were somewhat stuck in at that moment and I felt for my guy. But it did also make me realize that my burgeoning concerns about how his love of social interaction would impact his desire to unschool were pretty well founded. He seems to want to spend a good portion of nearly every day with other kiddos. He's an only child and will most likely remain that way. We do know some other people who may be
considering homeschooling their kids but not for their entire lives. Most of those we currently know think that they will do it for the first few years of elementary school and then possibly put them into public school later. I don't know of any families in our area who are currently or who are considering unschooling. How have you all handled this? Anyone else here have a really socially interested unschooling child who lives somewhere within 100 miles of Schenectady NY? :) Seriously though- this is my big hurdle to overcome in really committing to unschooling Kei. I'm hurting at the thought of him feeling lonely, of him wanting more socially than I could give him every day. I'd really appreciate your insights.

Thanks to all of you for plodding through this enormous message. :) And thanks again for being such a wonderful community.

-Julie
momma to Kei (3)







"Listen to the MUSTN'TS, child,
Listen to the DON'TS
Listen to the SHOULDN'TS
The IMPOSSIBLES, the WON'TS
Listen to the NEVER HAVES
Then listen close to me-
Anything can happen, child,
ANYTHING can be."
(Listen to the Mustn'ts, Shel Silverstein)



---------------------------------
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cameron Parham

First let me say that I am new to radical unschooling, though we've been homeschooling for years. You have a concern that your extroverted son will not get enough social input bc you see your self as introverted. In the example that you give, a time when he didn't see his friends enough for his taste, you were ill with a short-term illness. You remained sensitive to his need and if the illness had gone on longer I'll bet that you would have found a way to use the social support of the 2 men in your life, and any available friends, to help him get some visiting time. You said that he complained that he'd never see his friends again, so somehow frienships have been made without school, and this will continue, bc clearly you will be sensitive to this.
You also mention that your ex is concerned that you'll need others' input while raising your son. In a sense I see his point: when we are so close to an issue sometimes others' input and support is nice. This can be obtained through homeschooling or unschooling support groups much better than through schools. Seek out these groups in your area, and if possible, see if some of the dads can talk to or email him! That's just my 2 cents...have you read Rue Kream's book Parenting a Free Child? This is, to me a practical, real-life story of how the theories play out in one family. Cameron




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Cameron Parham
<acsp2205@...> wrote:
>> You also mention that your ex is concerned that you'll need
>others' input while raising your son. In a sense I see his point:
>when we are so close to an issue sometimes others' input and
>support is nice. This can be obtained through homeschooling or
>unschooling support groups much better than through schools. Seek
>out these groups in your area

*And* having friends who home/unschool will help when your guy's
friends are turing "school age". That can be an issue with
extroverted kids if all their friends are suddenly in school and
they feel left out. If there aren't any unschool groups in your
area, look for "eclectic" homeschoolers.

I know this may be a challenge for *you* - I'm pretty introverted
irl (you wouldn't know it online!) so going to meet a new group of
homeschoolers is pretty intimidating for me. Going to someone's
house for a play date is even harder! Yikes!

(Why do y'all think I'm so keen to bring fire toys to the
conference? So I can Hide Behind them! :P )

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Julie

--- In [email protected], Cameron Parham
<acsp2205@...> wrote:
> First let me say that I am new to radical unschooling, though we've
been homeschooling for years. You have a concern that your
extroverted son will not get enough social input bc you see your self
as introverted. In the example that you give, a time when he didn't
see his friends enough for his taste, you were ill with a short-term
illness. You remained sensitive to his need and if the illness had
gone on longer I'll bet that you would have found a way to use the
social support of the 2 men in your life, and any available friends,
to help him get some visiting time. You said that he complained that
he'd never see his friends again, so somehow frienships have been
made without school, and this will continue, bc clearly you will be
sensitive to this.>

Thanks for seeing that. I didn't really see that in myself. I do try
to be sensitive to what he needs, what he wants at any given time. I
guess I just didn't think that obviously I won't stop trying to meet
them when his friends go off to school. Of course I can keep looking
for other ways to meet his needs, just like I always have.


> You also mention that your ex is concerned that you'll need others'
input while raising your son. In a sense I see his point: when we
are so close to an issue sometimes others' input and support is nice.
This can be obtained through homeschooling or unschooling support
groups much better than through schools. Seek out these groups in
your area, and if possible, see if some of the dads can talk to or
email him!>

That's a great suggestion. It may really help him to hear from 'real'
dads who are doing this, instead of reading about it in books or
online. And I hadn't really thought about it from the angle of being
so close to the issue. Good point! I will look into more groups
around here. Some of us were thinking of starting something like that-
sort of a resource center / support group for those of us who are
planning on homeschooling in any way, even just for a little while.
It would encompass all sorts of philosophies, not just unschooling,
but it certainly would provide outside perspectives on things. Maybe
that will make him feel better too.

>That's just my 2 cents...have you read Rue Kream's book Parenting a
Free Child? This is, to me a practical, real-life story of how the
theories play out in one family. Cameron >

That is one book we haven't read yet. I wasn't able to locate it in
our local library system so it may have to wait until next payday.
Money's always tight around here. :)

-Julie

Julie

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> *And* having friends who home/unschool will help when your guy's
> friends are turing "school age". That can be an issue with
> extroverted kids if all their friends are suddenly in school and
> they feel left out. If there aren't any unschool groups in your
> area, look for "eclectic" homeschoolers.
>
I hadn't thought to look for 'eclectic' homeschoolers. I'll try
searching using that phrase. Unfortunately, the vast majority of
homeschooling groups I've found in this area so far seem to focus on
school-at-home and 'training' children with very conservative right-
wing Christian values. That's really not our thing. Some of us might
start a support-ish group (I just mentioned it in the last post I
made) that will be more accepting, welcoming, and broad-based.

> I know this may be a challenge for *you* - I'm pretty introverted
> irl (you wouldn't know it online!) so going to meet a new group of
> homeschoolers is pretty intimidating for me. Going to someone's
> house for a play date is even harder! Yikes!
>
That's exactly how I used to be. A year ago it would have been
unheard of for me to be out and meeting random moms and talking to
new people. I'd sooner have crawled under a rock. But last summer I
knew that Kei needed more. He really craved people. And so I put
aside my own fears, took a very deep breath, and dove on in. I've
been seeking out and meeting new people ever since. We've made a few
good friends- both he and I. I actually throw parties here for
everyone. I invite people over all the time. We go over to other's
houses or meet people at local parks and farms and such. It does take
alot out of me sometimes. I can get very drained by alot of social
interaction. But I try really hard to work through it so Kei can have
what he needs, what he wants. I think it's so funny that 2 introverts
created such an extroverted child. It must be that 2 negatives
together make a positive (not that being introverted is a negative...
lol).

-Julie
momma to Kei (3)

Deb

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>> (Why do y'all think I'm so keen to bring fire toys to the
> conference? So I can Hide Behind them! :P )
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>
I often end up helping refill the chips or pouring sodas or what-
have-you at social gatherings - that way it looks busy and social
but I don't actually have to interact with a whole lot of people.

Also, finding where your balance is as an introvert is important.
For instance, I *love* whenever I get a chance to get together with
our unschoolers group (since it mostly meets days and I work
fulltime, it's about once every two months or so that I get to go)
*however* it is a bit stressful to me (I have a heck of a time
figuring out large group discussions). So, we make sure to plan low-
activity days before and after it - just us, relaxing at home, maybe
take the canoe out if it's summer (getting out on the water is
really quiet and relaxing, we are our own little island -
literally). Or, I can be chatty and sociable at church on Sunday but
then I need a quiet, downtime (like a nap) once we get home. And,
again, this is something that is openly discussed and DH and DS know
that giving me some space when I needs it means that I can be more
fully present once I'm recharged. Giving Mommy an hour to nap on
Sunday afternoon results in a happier, more active Mommy than a
Mommy who is worn out from socializing and going and going... As
I've gotten older, I'm finding that I can handle more social stuff
*because* I've gotten better at knowing and recognizing what I can
and can't do.

--Deb

caradove

The book "Raising Your Spirited Child" puts it very nicely that
extroverts get their energy from being with people and socialising,
whereas introverts get their energy from their alone time.
I am an extrovert and my children all seem to be, but this book very
nicely discusses ideas for if you are the opposite of your child in
this respect.
Cara

> Also, finding where your balance is as an introvert is important.

And,
> again, this is something that is openly discussed and DH and DS know
> that giving me some space when I needs it means that I can be more
> fully present once I'm recharged. Giving Mommy an hour to nap on
> Sunday afternoon results in a happier, more active Mommy than a
> Mommy who is worn out from socializing and going and going... As
> I've gotten older, I'm finding that I can handle more social stuff
> *because* I've gotten better at knowing and recognizing what I can
> and can't do.
>
> --Deb
>

sharon currie

Hi Julie,

I'm new to unschooling too, not sure about the radical bit but it just seems nowadays we have no schedules, no boundaries and all activities is pretty much led by my 6 yrs old DS. I'm still learning with lots of insercurities hanging around my head, and I totally agree about what you've said about this community, it's fantastic! My husband was just like your ex. He agrees but yet the big "BUT.....?" So I needed to de-school/ free his mind from all schooled/ old fashion constraints! So what I'm writing below what I did. Hubby not the reading kind. He's the type to pick up the book and fall asleep LOL!! So I gave him computer 2/3 pages of internet print out every so often, so it's too short for his to fall asleep on, was de-schooling husband mind slowly, which is basically question, dissect and anaylise all his teory and doubts.

"I feel that his dad is a little scared of really committing to homeschooling and is really unsure of unschooling. I've offered up tons of literature (John Holt, Pat Farenga, David Albert, John Taylor Gatto, and the list goes on) and websites (Sandra Dodd's and Joyce Fetteroll's specifically) in order for him to get a feel of it, how it isn't really much different than how we all live now, but this was his latest comment on it all: "I guess this is really the core of my concern to homeschooling. Ultimately I think that it is important to get outside input on how your child is developing and learning and how you are parenting. Not that I believe
that teachers are perfect either."

It will always be scary to anybody, even especially if someone like me who's not trained to be a teacher (I read you are). But homeschooling is still unknown territory. Tell him that it's normal to be scared and doubtful, but the question is still "What if.." Surely he'll have to believe that you being the mother, and a trained teacher will not do something stupid to jeopardise son's future, will you? Because you're a trained teacher, you also have the added advantage of being able to compare and see what's best for yur son.

"I did ask him why he feels that we need to have others validate our parenting and why he thinks that other people would know his child better than us... and he hasn't answered me yet."

Again, I think another normal reaction. Because we're all schooled to expect seeing tangible results measured against targets, and how our parents' applaud/ dis-satisfaction about our school performance, it is natural that he thinks that you'll need outside opinion to reflect on your son's capabilities. I think the fact that he's yet answer your question is because he's probably just realised that he hasn't got an answer for that because, he don't, because what he belief and casually spouted, was not his own personal view basedf on experience that he's come to that conclusion, but rather, it was someone else's belief that was drummed/ school into him, and his parents before him, and so to the mass majority too! He grew up believing that's MUST be the right way, without questioning it. Again, this is what un-schooling is all about. It's about being given a chance to come to your own opinion/ conclusion rather than having someone else's beliefs/ experience drummed/ schooled
into you brain. So tell him that! This is a good example of un-schooling and schooled mind! Ask him to give it a chance, think thru it, talk thru it, pretend that your really homeschooling/ un-schooling (but I would suggest you separate these two as if he's not 100% into the idea of homeschooling, he might find it even harder to understand and believe in the idea of un-schooling, which is basically no boundaries and no formal studies, which means no grading!) now, what could possibly go wrong? After all it's only a discussion, right, no harm done.

Work on this! Here is your window of opportunity. He's probably now thinking "Yeah, why? Why do we need outsiders telling us how clever our son is. We know he's clever because we know him, inside outside, thru and thru" Ask him how much he knows about son, and then asked him how did he know it. Was it because someone else told him so? Of course not! But then could it be that your ex is the one that needs the validation, being told that his son is doing great at school? But what happens if school say son is not doing good because he's too busy talking and not paying attention, as your son is an extrovert? Is it ok for school then to tell you son is very 'disruptive' and needs to calm down(which is another way of saying don't be himself and shut up!)? Then what will he think of such validation? Trust me, all this so call behavior problems DO NOT EXIST outside the 4 classroom walls!!!

So if ex don't need validation, you don't need validation, and son most certainly only need both your positive validation, so why you need an outsider to tell you what to do with your son?

You should know how his mind works, after you did marry him once. If he's not the bookworm kind, don't just suggest titles for him to read,coz he won't, especially if he's luukewarm about this unschooling idea. Instead photocopy the relevant sections, surf the web, print relevant write-up that's relevant to your son, highlighting all the positive benefit of homeschooling. In another word, build a case file for him. This way, he'll have no choice but to read it and at least it'll be more fun to read as it gets straight to the point, rather than him working thru the foreword and introduction and blah blah blah.....

"he really seemed to embrace it. Kei was born with the helped of a doula from their Family Life Center and we used to go to their birthing groups and later, their parent groups. It's a very child-led philosophy.. . so why would that be ok while unschooling would require some sort of evaluation?"

It's because early years is all about lovey dovey and lots of play? and after all it's only for the few early years when he's a baby, what does a baby really knows about algebra? But when you speak of homeschooling, it's something more serious, no doubt about it, I'm very serious about my kid's future too, so serious that I don't even wanna play the "lets see what happens" game! What you do now will effect his future, which is percisely why you're thinking of un-schooling anyway, as you're thinking of giving him a better future(purely your opinion as many other people(who are these many other people anyway?) will think you've gone mad and will jeorpadise his whole entire life!)

So the question to ex is :-

1) Who are these people? Are they important to your son's life? Should school fail your son and damage him, will 'these people' be there to help you pick up the pieces? Will they be able to help fix your son? Most likely a big NO!!!

2) Who's to say school is the best as you both obviously wants the best for your kid. What makes school the best? Surely it can't be better than the tailor-made environment that homeschooling/ un-schoolling provides?

3) Why he thinks "these people" know best? Who's to say that these people is really the best? What's his classification of 'knows best?' Teach him to question himself why? In another words, ask him to de-schoool his mind because if he can't see it, he will not be able to see all the non-tangible benefits that his son will reap! Tell him to break free from those school walls and think what constitute learning and what's not? Who's to de-marcate what's education and what's not? Who's to say a Phd is enough? For now, it prbably is, but what happens if it's not in 10 years time?

I asked my husband this question? What would be classified as success in 15 years time? What would our son be needing in order to get a 'good' job? A Phd? A 'MPhd'(as in multiple pHD)?
My husband answered" Sharon, nobody knows what's to happen even in the next few years, never mind 15 years. For all you know the whole world might be at war! So what's so great about having a Phd when you're starving?" This is when I knew I've managed to 'open' my husband eyes to the positive possibilities of homeschooling, not un-schooling! Un-schooling came naturally later but he didn't question it as he's kinda learnt to trust me and left me to get on with it. But I'm still always ready to 'enlighten' him with tangible facts and figures whenever he ask a question. But nowadays I don't really neeed to, as he can see for himself. Our son is vitually 'bloooming' in front of his eyes. Yes, I can say my husband is very proud to say we-re HEing our son to all his friends and workmates.

So next question, what's is the meaning of 'good job'? A big salary loaded with mega stress? or perhaps a wholesome life, tending chickens? Our son wants to be a train driver. Now, that could be a good job because it's his passion-trains. What could be better than havaing a job that you love! It probably won't pay much, but who's to know? But then if my son grows up to be gentle and kind with simple neeeds, contented and happy with his family and loves his job, perhaps that's could be what we call 'successful life'?

"I am an introvert. We do know some other people who may be
considering homeschooling their kids but not for their entire lives."

Can't help you much here as me and son's also introvert(oh yeah we're really slow somedays!), actually it was thru this website that i found out my son's an introvert! LOL! Well i guess you'll just have to find lots and lots of after school clubs, church group, football club, dancing./ drama club to go to. We're in UK so not too sure what's available in US. At 3, perhaps he can go to playschool as in this stage, they really only do free play. HE support group is great but only if there's any near you. I too find sometimes when we're doing lots of activities, it tires us out. I would agree the other person who replied to you, perhaps your partner and ex can take him out one day a week? Even if it means taking him to the nearby park to run around for 3 hours, you'll be surprised how children seems to always find friends everywhere.

If your ex is still with the "But.....???" convinced him that Homeschooling is the new way(even tho it's not new) to educate our kids. It's an evolution. We've gone from homeschooling to mass schoooling to private schoooling, and now to tailor-made education! Show him lots of positive stories about homeschooled children. I read of a 17years old doing his Phd in Biology and a 4 years old girl, mad about dolphin, always reading about them and never seems to get enough of them, managed to identified a bottle nose dolphin skeleton. The guide working in the musuem said in all the 20 years he was working there, the little girl was the 2nd person he knows of that have managed to identify that skeleton with it's long fangs! Imagine what sort of dolphin specialist she'll turn out to be when she grows up!

Try getting into this group in UK. It's called Autonomous Education UK(AEUK) in yahoo chat group. You'll can find some of positive stories of un-schooling children. We've went straight into un-schooling and it's been 4 months now and son's going from strength to strenght. He's beginning to show signs of taking control of his learning by stating the date when he's ready to start doing formal learning which is maths and writing. No problem with reading as son has always been able to read way above his age.

We have not set an age target when our son will stop HE and enter mainstream education but going all the way seems like a viable option, for now.

Sorry for the bad grammer and bad spelling, am in a hurry to finish this. Hope I'm able to help.

With Best Regards,
SharonC


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Tryit now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

Yes it is. Raising Your Spirited Child not only helped with DS but also
shed light on why DH and DS clashed soooo much - they're BOTH Spirited
personalities, only their "peaks" are in different places - so DS is
Spirited with a High Energy streak but DH is Spirited with lower energy
(for example). They'd butt heads when DH needed calm and DS needed to
burn Energy (with him, it deserves a capital E). When I could (calmly,
quietly) explain this to DH, it was a light bulb moment and helped HIM
to see that it wasn't him being a "bad dad" or DS deliberately trying to
make him crazy, it was that they were both wired so similarly yet not
that it led to collisions. Big issues were "typical" Spirited issues
like locking in to an idea or position and getting "stuck". When DH is
stuck on turning left and DS is stuck on turning right, oy! So, DH and I
talked a lot and I help DS clarify what it is he is needing and clarify
to DS what DH is needing and then we look for how it works best for
everyone (as much of the time as possible). It's gotten to where DS will
say "Daddy and I are having a problem. Here's my side...Now you need to
go hear Daddy's side so we can figure out a solution." (okay rough
paraphrase of multiple occurrences). Sometimes all it takes is me
suggesting a third option to break the impass. One time, DS wanted to
stay home, DH wanted to get out of the house (a stop at fast food and
eating at the park-maybe 30-40 minutes away from home total). Both were
dug in on their choices. DS called me at work and explained the
situation. I suggested a couple options to DS, spoke to DH briefly, and
ended the call. A couple hours later I called to see what they had ended
up working out. They were at a *different* park having a great time! It
was a totally other option they had come up with once they got loose of
their sticking point.

Deb

**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

CNC Software, Inc.
www.mastercam.com
**********************************************************************




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]