Earrings for boys
Alice
My 9 yr son wants to get his ears pierced. My dh is not too happy
about this (he is a military man and piercings just strike him the
wrong way). My ds wants both of his ears pierced because he figures
why not go for broke and just get them both done at the same time.
(my dd 6 just got both of her ears pierced - which my dh was not too
happy about either) Anyway, we are all trying to reach a consensus
about this and what type of earrings to get that would look boyish. I
guess I also have a lot of fears of my son looking girlish! Isn't
that sad?! My son has always dressed and styled his own way and has
always loved jewelry, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he
wants to get piercings. I guess the piercing thing caught us/me off
guard - I always think of teen boys getting piercings, not 9 yo. We
have teens in the house (with lots of piercings and tattoos) so I am
thinking that probably has a strong influence.
Anyway, I think I am just trying to sort through my own feelings and
fears so they don't get in the way of my son expressing himself. So
if anyone has any thoughts, advice and reassurance, I would appreciate it!
-alice
joyfully living with dh Ordell, dear niece Megan 17, ds Andrew 9, dd
Audrey 6, and various other wonderful people who come and go in our
very busy house
about this (he is a military man and piercings just strike him the
wrong way). My ds wants both of his ears pierced because he figures
why not go for broke and just get them both done at the same time.
(my dd 6 just got both of her ears pierced - which my dh was not too
happy about either) Anyway, we are all trying to reach a consensus
about this and what type of earrings to get that would look boyish. I
guess I also have a lot of fears of my son looking girlish! Isn't
that sad?! My son has always dressed and styled his own way and has
always loved jewelry, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he
wants to get piercings. I guess the piercing thing caught us/me off
guard - I always think of teen boys getting piercings, not 9 yo. We
have teens in the house (with lots of piercings and tattoos) so I am
thinking that probably has a strong influence.
Anyway, I think I am just trying to sort through my own feelings and
fears so they don't get in the way of my son expressing himself. So
if anyone has any thoughts, advice and reassurance, I would appreciate it!
-alice
joyfully living with dh Ordell, dear niece Megan 17, ds Andrew 9, dd
Audrey 6, and various other wonderful people who come and go in our
very busy house
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: thesackmans@...
Anyway, I think I am just trying to sort through my own feelings and
fears so they don't get in the way of my son expressing himself. So
if anyone has any thoughts, advice and reassurance, I would appreciate
it!
-=-=-=-
You know, everything's relative. <g>
Having a teen (granted, much older!) who got pierced for the first time
last year---it really seems like NOTHING now that he's contemplating
the tattoo thang next week. Two friends are going; they will all get
the same 'ttoo.
I know several littluns with piercings. Duncan, at 11, says he wants no
one "mutilating" *his* body. But we also know that could change at any
time.
My husband's military too, but he's just learned to "go with the flow"
about the long hair and earrings and possible tattoos. He's even
embraced them wholly. <g> These are NOT *our* bodies. Their bodies
belong to themselves.
My niece and Cam's girlfriend wanted tattoos and piercings that were
"forbidden." Guess what? Lauren and Carly both got their tongues
pierced so that their parents would notice---and they didn't for months
and months because the girls avoided speaking directly to their
parents. As soon as she turned 18, Lauren got her last name (Lovejoy)
tattooed down her back in Chinese characters (it's actually very
pretty---just HUGE). Carly turned 18 last November and is getting "This
too shall pass" tattooed on her lower back next week. Yes, the irony
that that is the ONLY thing that will last is not lost on me either.
<g> That's what Cameron's considering as well. The *good* thing is that
he's seriously *considering* it---not just running off to do it because
he's legally old enough to!
If we don't "allow" them to direct their bodies, they will end up doing
things they may regret later. But if they are empowered to know that
their bodies are their own---even at a very young age, they may still
get the tatts and piercings, but it will be a *choice*, an action---not
a REaction.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
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From: thesackmans@...
Anyway, I think I am just trying to sort through my own feelings and
fears so they don't get in the way of my son expressing himself. So
if anyone has any thoughts, advice and reassurance, I would appreciate
it!
-=-=-=-
You know, everything's relative. <g>
Having a teen (granted, much older!) who got pierced for the first time
last year---it really seems like NOTHING now that he's contemplating
the tattoo thang next week. Two friends are going; they will all get
the same 'ttoo.
I know several littluns with piercings. Duncan, at 11, says he wants no
one "mutilating" *his* body. But we also know that could change at any
time.
My husband's military too, but he's just learned to "go with the flow"
about the long hair and earrings and possible tattoos. He's even
embraced them wholly. <g> These are NOT *our* bodies. Their bodies
belong to themselves.
My niece and Cam's girlfriend wanted tattoos and piercings that were
"forbidden." Guess what? Lauren and Carly both got their tongues
pierced so that their parents would notice---and they didn't for months
and months because the girls avoided speaking directly to their
parents. As soon as she turned 18, Lauren got her last name (Lovejoy)
tattooed down her back in Chinese characters (it's actually very
pretty---just HUGE). Carly turned 18 last November and is getting "This
too shall pass" tattooed on her lower back next week. Yes, the irony
that that is the ONLY thing that will last is not lost on me either.
<g> That's what Cameron's considering as well. The *good* thing is that
he's seriously *considering* it---not just running off to do it because
he's legally old enough to!
If we don't "allow" them to direct their bodies, they will end up doing
things they may regret later. But if they are empowered to know that
their bodies are their own---even at a very young age, they may still
get the tatts and piercings, but it will be a *choice*, an action---not
a REaction.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
[email protected]
Anyway, I think I am just trying to sort through my own feelings and
fears so they don't get in the way of my son expressing himself. So
if anyone has any thoughts, advice and reassurance, I would appreciate
it!
-My only concern would be regarding whether some of the younger children have a true understanding that they are doing something to alter their bodies permanently (?). I suppose my fear would be that my child would resent me later for NOT discouraging them from doing something to permanently change their bodies when they were not old enough to really know what 'permanent' means. (they might think they know, but....I would be skeptical about my own boys because as it is now, they often change their minds about things at the drop of a hat ; what foods they like, what toys they like, what hairstyle, etc.,... its all fine because we can easily change these things without a problem). On the other hand, the earrings can be taken out forever if your son changes his mind and the old earrings holes will be barely noticeable. - Good luck :-) Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fears so they don't get in the way of my son expressing himself. So
if anyone has any thoughts, advice and reassurance, I would appreciate
it!
-My only concern would be regarding whether some of the younger children have a true understanding that they are doing something to alter their bodies permanently (?). I suppose my fear would be that my child would resent me later for NOT discouraging them from doing something to permanently change their bodies when they were not old enough to really know what 'permanent' means. (they might think they know, but....I would be skeptical about my own boys because as it is now, they often change their minds about things at the drop of a hat ; what foods they like, what toys they like, what hairstyle, etc.,... its all fine because we can easily change these things without a problem). On the other hand, the earrings can be taken out forever if your son changes his mind and the old earrings holes will be barely noticeable. - Good luck :-) Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ginger Sabo
Will he be any different when you look in his eyes? For me, both me and my husband were military, it matters not what the outside has. If he had a huge visible scar or birth mark, would that change him? If he was missing an ear, would that change who he is? Those things are far more permanent than earrings. My hubby and I both have had earrings, and at present, don't wear them. No one sees it, so it "never happened" as far as the public is concerned. I guess what I'm really trying to say is what Kelly did - he will have more ability to know what he wants to do with his body when he has jurisdiction over it. Out of all the 'crazy' things kids may want to do, earrings dont' rank high as a concern. They can be taken out and it's back to 'normal'.
I personally like saphire or ruby...
In Peace,
Ginger
Kai(8) - who has long hair and Kade(5) - who usually runs around the neighborhood naked.
LOVE has impact.
"It's not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize, accept and celebrate those differences." - Audre Lorde
----- Original Message ----
From: Alice <thesackmans@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2007 10:59:21 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Earrings for boys
My 9 yr son wants to get his ears pierced. My dh is not too happy
about this (he is a military man and piercings just strike him the
wrong way). My ds wants both of his ears pierced because he figures
why not go for broke and just get them both done at the same time.
(my dd 6 just got both of her ears pierced - which my dh was not too
happy about either) Anyway, we are all trying to reach a consensus
about this and what type of earrings to get that would look boyish. I
guess I also have a lot of fears of my son looking girlish! Isn't
that sad?! My son has always dressed and styled his own way and has
always loved jewelry, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he
wants to get piercings. I guess the piercing thing caught us/me off
guard - I always think of teen boys getting piercings, not 9 yo. We
have teens in the house (with lots of piercings and tattoos) so I am
thinking that probably has a strong influence.
Anyway, I think I am just trying to sort through my own feelings and
fears so they don't get in the way of my son expressing himself. So
if anyone has any thoughts, advice and reassurance, I would appreciate it!
-alice
joyfully living with dh Ordell, dear niece Megan 17, ds Andrew 9, dd
Audrey 6, and various other wonderful people who come and go in our
very busy house
____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I personally like saphire or ruby...
In Peace,
Ginger
Kai(8) - who has long hair and Kade(5) - who usually runs around the neighborhood naked.
LOVE has impact.
"It's not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize, accept and celebrate those differences." - Audre Lorde
----- Original Message ----
From: Alice <thesackmans@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2007 10:59:21 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Earrings for boys
My 9 yr son wants to get his ears pierced. My dh is not too happy
about this (he is a military man and piercings just strike him the
wrong way). My ds wants both of his ears pierced because he figures
why not go for broke and just get them both done at the same time.
(my dd 6 just got both of her ears pierced - which my dh was not too
happy about either) Anyway, we are all trying to reach a consensus
about this and what type of earrings to get that would look boyish. I
guess I also have a lot of fears of my son looking girlish! Isn't
that sad?! My son has always dressed and styled his own way and has
always loved jewelry, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he
wants to get piercings. I guess the piercing thing caught us/me off
guard - I always think of teen boys getting piercings, not 9 yo. We
have teens in the house (with lots of piercings and tattoos) so I am
thinking that probably has a strong influence.
Anyway, I think I am just trying to sort through my own feelings and
fears so they don't get in the way of my son expressing himself. So
if anyone has any thoughts, advice and reassurance, I would appreciate it!
-alice
joyfully living with dh Ordell, dear niece Megan 17, ds Andrew 9, dd
Audrey 6, and various other wonderful people who come and go in our
very busy house
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
Anyway, I think I am just trying to sort through my own feelings and fears so they don't get in the way of my son expressing himself. So if anyone has any thoughts, advice and reassurance, I would appreciate it!
****
Will had one ear pierced at 11yo. It was an adoption gift to him from us when Gary adopted him (Will's from my first marriage). He wore an earring for about 4 yrs, then he did a couple of years in high school JROTC and the earring wasn't allowed by them, so he let it grow over.
At 17 he got his first tattoo, with our consent. He was visiting my sister and a friend who is a tattoo artist did a beautiful (and big) chinese dragon on his lower right leg. It goes from knee to ankle, and almost all the way around his leg from calf to shin in some places. It is an awesome tatt! Took three daily sessions to finish -- my sister says Will swore and sweated his way thru most of the 'coloring' sessions on days 2 & 3! He came home very happy with it. He has since added another smaller one, just above his ankle bone, inside, on the same leg and is saving his money for one more, a band name if I remember correctly.
With both the piercing and the tattoo, Will thought and planned in depth. I remember several days over which ear to pierce and which stud he wanted. He took care of it all himself and never had any problems. He and I talked over several weeks about where/what to get for his tattoo. He wanted one that wouldn't be impossible to hide -- no neck or lower arm tattoos -- but would be easy to show to others when he wanted to. He thought about the stomach, but heard that really hurts; the back, but wanted to be able to see it himself, etc. He chose the lower leg, figuring that if someday he gets a job where tattoos are okay, it'll be one where he can wear shorts -- if he gets an office job someday, he'd like to be able to roll up his sleeves or unbutton a collar without exposing the tattoos. Again, he was responsible for the after-care, going thru lots of lotion/cream in the weeks after the tattoo, but it is a pretty one!
Gary was initially not thrilled about the ear piercing, and isn't a tattoo guy himself, so ihe didn't understand why Will would do those, but he was fine with it. We were both pleased to see how much thought Will gave to the whole process. When it was all healed, looking at the tattoo was intriguing to everyone -- even my mil had to have a peek when she visited a couple of months later.
On reading Kelly's post about Carly's tatt -- I have to wonder about those lower back tattoos. I know that's a popular place, and I guess with the current crop-tops they're a popular look, but it just seems a strange place to me! Then again, I have no tattoos -- I'm a needle wimp and worry I'd be allergic to the ink. I ampretty sure, tho, that I'll go along for a piercing when the tattoo trip happens at the conference.
I agree with Kelly -- our kids' bodies aren't ours. For me it's not about allowing them to do what they want, but my respect for their sovereignty that's most important.
Sylvia
Gary (dh)
Will (22) Andy (10-1/2) and Dan (6)
A friend is someone who knows your song, and sings it to you when youve forgotten it yourself.
~Alan Cohen
http://ourhapahome.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
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with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
****
Will had one ear pierced at 11yo. It was an adoption gift to him from us when Gary adopted him (Will's from my first marriage). He wore an earring for about 4 yrs, then he did a couple of years in high school JROTC and the earring wasn't allowed by them, so he let it grow over.
At 17 he got his first tattoo, with our consent. He was visiting my sister and a friend who is a tattoo artist did a beautiful (and big) chinese dragon on his lower right leg. It goes from knee to ankle, and almost all the way around his leg from calf to shin in some places. It is an awesome tatt! Took three daily sessions to finish -- my sister says Will swore and sweated his way thru most of the 'coloring' sessions on days 2 & 3! He came home very happy with it. He has since added another smaller one, just above his ankle bone, inside, on the same leg and is saving his money for one more, a band name if I remember correctly.
With both the piercing and the tattoo, Will thought and planned in depth. I remember several days over which ear to pierce and which stud he wanted. He took care of it all himself and never had any problems. He and I talked over several weeks about where/what to get for his tattoo. He wanted one that wouldn't be impossible to hide -- no neck or lower arm tattoos -- but would be easy to show to others when he wanted to. He thought about the stomach, but heard that really hurts; the back, but wanted to be able to see it himself, etc. He chose the lower leg, figuring that if someday he gets a job where tattoos are okay, it'll be one where he can wear shorts -- if he gets an office job someday, he'd like to be able to roll up his sleeves or unbutton a collar without exposing the tattoos. Again, he was responsible for the after-care, going thru lots of lotion/cream in the weeks after the tattoo, but it is a pretty one!
Gary was initially not thrilled about the ear piercing, and isn't a tattoo guy himself, so ihe didn't understand why Will would do those, but he was fine with it. We were both pleased to see how much thought Will gave to the whole process. When it was all healed, looking at the tattoo was intriguing to everyone -- even my mil had to have a peek when she visited a couple of months later.
On reading Kelly's post about Carly's tatt -- I have to wonder about those lower back tattoos. I know that's a popular place, and I guess with the current crop-tops they're a popular look, but it just seems a strange place to me! Then again, I have no tattoos -- I'm a needle wimp and worry I'd be allergic to the ink. I ampretty sure, tho, that I'll go along for a piercing when the tattoo trip happens at the conference.
I agree with Kelly -- our kids' bodies aren't ours. For me it's not about allowing them to do what they want, but my respect for their sovereignty that's most important.
Sylvia
Gary (dh)
Will (22) Andy (10-1/2) and Dan (6)
A friend is someone who knows your song, and sings it to you when youve forgotten it yourself.
~Alan Cohen
http://ourhapahome.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wildflower Car
Most of my brothers, my husband and most of our male peers have had their
ears pierced at one point or another. Some still keep earrings in, and some
don't. I think it is perfectly fine if that's what they want.
Wildflower
The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian.
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ears pierced at one point or another. Some still keep earrings in, and some
don't. I think it is perfectly fine if that's what they want.
Wildflower
>From: Sylvia Toyama <sylgt04@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Earrings for boys
>Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 15:31:13 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Anyway, I think I am just trying to sort through my own feelings and fears
>so they don't get in the way of my son expressing himself. So if anyone has
>any thoughts, advice and reassurance, I would appreciate it!
>
> ****
> Will had one ear pierced at 11yo. It was an adoption gift to him from
>us when Gary adopted him (Will's from my first marriage). He wore an
>earring for about 4 yrs, then he did a couple of years in high school JROTC
>and the earring wasn't allowed by them, so he let it grow over.
>
> At 17 he got his first tattoo, with our consent. He was visiting my
>sister and a friend who is a tattoo artist did a beautiful (and big)
>chinese dragon on his lower right leg. It goes from knee to ankle, and
>almost all the way around his leg from calf to shin in some places. It is
>an awesome tatt! Took three daily sessions to finish -- my sister says
>Will swore and sweated his way thru most of the 'coloring' sessions on days
>2 & 3! He came home very happy with it. He has since added another smaller
>one, just above his ankle bone, inside, on the same leg and is saving his
>money for one more, a band name if I remember correctly.
>
> With both the piercing and the tattoo, Will thought and planned in
>depth. I remember several days over which ear to pierce and which stud he
>wanted. He took care of it all himself and never had any problems. He and
>I talked over several weeks about where/what to get for his tattoo. He
>wanted one that wouldn't be impossible to hide -- no neck or lower arm
>tattoos -- but would be easy to show to others when he wanted to. He
>thought about the stomach, but heard that really hurts; the back, but
>wanted to be able to see it himself, etc. He chose the lower leg, figuring
>that if someday he gets a job where tattoos are okay, it'll be one where he
>can wear shorts -- if he gets an office job someday, he'd like to be able
>to roll up his sleeves or unbutton a collar without exposing the tattoos.
>Again, he was responsible for the after-care, going thru lots of
>lotion/cream in the weeks after the tattoo, but it is a pretty one!
>
> Gary was initially not thrilled about the ear piercing, and isn't a
>tattoo guy himself, so ihe didn't understand why Will would do those, but
>he was fine with it. We were both pleased to see how much thought Will gave
>to the whole process. When it was all healed, looking at the tattoo was
>intriguing to everyone -- even my mil had to have a peek when she visited a
>couple of months later.
>
> On reading Kelly's post about Carly's tatt -- I have to wonder about
>those lower back tattoos. I know that's a popular place, and I guess with
>the current crop-tops they're a popular look, but it just seems a strange
>place to me! Then again, I have no tattoos -- I'm a needle wimp and worry
>I'd be allergic to the ink. I ampretty sure, tho, that I'll go along for a
>piercing when the tattoo trip happens at the conference.
>
> I agree with Kelly -- our kids' bodies aren't ours. For me it's not
>about allowing them to do what they want, but my respect for their
>sovereignty that's most important.
>
> Sylvia
>
>
>
> Gary (dh)
> Will (22) Andy (10-1/2) and Dan (6)
>
> A friend is someone who knows your song, and sings it to you when
>you�ve forgotten it yourself.
>~Alan Cohen
>
>
> http://ourhapahome.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
> with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian.
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Sharissa13
My husband and I own a tattoo shop, so I'm somewhat
lenient on the piercing issue. Someone else did bring
up a good point though... if we try to control what we
allow them to put on their bodies, it could really
backfire. In our tattoo shop, we get people who don't
want to pay $200 for a tattoo that someone in some
apartment offered to do for $50. At the very least,
your tattoo might not come out the way you want it to.
Worse, you could get scarring. Even worse yet,
contract a blood-born disease.
Granted, this is much less an issue with piercings.
But... piercings aren't permanent. Your 9 year old
might decide in a few years he doesn't want his ears
pierced anymore. And it's as simple as taking the
jewelry out, and letting the holes close up.
But, if it were *my* child...unless he had a really
good reason for wanting his ears pierced (one that he
could convince his dad with), I'd probably tell him to
wait a few years. Maybe as a birthday present for a 12
or 13th birthday.
I don't even want to think about what my kids are
going to do with tattoos once they get older. Both my
DH and I have several tattoos. And my 5 year old is
well known for having full sleeve tattoos of Sharpie
markers on various occasions.
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lenient on the piercing issue. Someone else did bring
up a good point though... if we try to control what we
allow them to put on their bodies, it could really
backfire. In our tattoo shop, we get people who don't
want to pay $200 for a tattoo that someone in some
apartment offered to do for $50. At the very least,
your tattoo might not come out the way you want it to.
Worse, you could get scarring. Even worse yet,
contract a blood-born disease.
Granted, this is much less an issue with piercings.
But... piercings aren't permanent. Your 9 year old
might decide in a few years he doesn't want his ears
pierced anymore. And it's as simple as taking the
jewelry out, and letting the holes close up.
But, if it were *my* child...unless he had a really
good reason for wanting his ears pierced (one that he
could convince his dad with), I'd probably tell him to
wait a few years. Maybe as a birthday present for a 12
or 13th birthday.
I don't even want to think about what my kids are
going to do with tattoos once they get older. Both my
DH and I have several tattoos. And my 5 year old is
well known for having full sleeve tattoos of Sharpie
markers on various occasions.
____________________________________________________________________________________
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marji
>Anyway, we are all trying to reach a consensusLiam (now 12) got his ear pierced the first time at 9 or 10. It
>about this and what type of earrings to get that would look boyish. I
>guess I also have a lot of fears of my son looking girlish! ...
>I always think of teen boys getting piercings, not 9 yo....
closed up spontaneously and he had it re-pierced last year when he
was 11 (which amazed me that he would do it again 'cause it *did*
smart when he first did it). His decision to re-pierce demonstrated
to me his strong desire to have a pierced ear.
We have been able to find him really cool earrings that he loves
(right now, he's wearing a sort of black-and-white skull), but we've
found lightning bolts and swords and also just a clear, colored stone
to wear. I'm really happy for him.
I think it's important to understand that your fears (looking
girlish, etc.) are yours, and it would be good if you could recognize
that and not pass them on to your son. One of the best things I have
heard to do in almost any situation is to ask myself this
question: "How can I best support my son?" Certainly, laying my own
fears on him is not what I would consider to be supportive. So, any
qualms I may have about something he wants to do, I deal with on my
own and I hold that up to that question: How can I best support Liam
through this?
If there is an obvious serious safety issue, I know that supporting
him best would be helping him understand the risks *and* helping him
mitigate them, if he still wants to go forward. I *trust* him to
know that he does not want to injure himself, and we research stuff
together, and whatever he does, he does so with fully informed consent.
More than gaining pierced ears, he gains the experience of learning
how to research his options and make informed choices. He also
trusts me to support him. I don't remember feeling that way towards
my folks when I was a kid; their default response was set to "no."
The *best* part about this is that he does things for the right
reasons: He wants to. A wrong reason would be *because* I say
no. The wrong reason would be to prove to me that I have no
authority of him or his body. That would lead to him sneaking around
behind my back (as I did with my folks) because I'm blocking his
path, thereby actually *encouraging* him to go underground to get
what he wants. That doesn't make a good environment for unschooling,
in my opinion.
Anywho, that's my two cents on the subject. I hope that helps!
Marji, who apologizes if this answer is redundant; I'm seriously
backed up on reading email so someone else may have already put this
out there, and probably more eloquently and concisely than I did!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alice
Well, my ds and I talked about earrings and about how male earrings
often send messages. We talked about what message he wanted to send
and of course he had the option to just do whatever kind of earrings
he wants and to hell with the "message". He finally opted for a
single CZ in his left ear which he is very happy with. And dad was
fine with it. So everyone is happy.
Like many of you said, I truly value my relationship with him over any
piercing or self-expression. I would never ever want him to have to
hide something from me or feel that I valued him less because of
something he did.
If it were just us and other unschoolers in the world, my dh and I
probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid over the piercing. I think
our fear was based more on what kind of flak *we* would get from other
parents for "letting" our son pierce his ear! It seems to me that as
the kids start approaching their teen years and becoming adults, our
society expects parents to start "cracking down" and really
controlling their lives so they don't "run amok". I don't know any
other 9 yo boys who have their ears pierced. Usually for males, this
is something they do on their own perhaps in direct defiance of their
parents. So I guess I was just afraid for me! Afraid that other
parents were going to wonder what kind of mom I am for letting my son
pierce his ear so young. I know it is dumb.
But you know what? I am really glad that we found unschooling so that
when my son asks to get his ear pierced, we can go out and have a good
time doing it and the only thing bothering me is a little niggling
fear that other people are going to think bad about me. That is such
a small fear and easy to get over compared to all the traditional
households out there that would have seen their's son's request as
evidence that he is going astray. And they would not only fear what
other people think but a whole slew of other things too. Which would
have resulted in a big argument that would have diminished their
relationship instead of strenghtening it. I am glad that I don't have
to live my life in fear. I am glad that I can love my son for who he
is, piercings and all.
-Alice
joyfully living in North Idaho with Ordell, Andrew 9, Audrey 6, Megan
17,
often send messages. We talked about what message he wanted to send
and of course he had the option to just do whatever kind of earrings
he wants and to hell with the "message". He finally opted for a
single CZ in his left ear which he is very happy with. And dad was
fine with it. So everyone is happy.
Like many of you said, I truly value my relationship with him over any
piercing or self-expression. I would never ever want him to have to
hide something from me or feel that I valued him less because of
something he did.
If it were just us and other unschoolers in the world, my dh and I
probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid over the piercing. I think
our fear was based more on what kind of flak *we* would get from other
parents for "letting" our son pierce his ear! It seems to me that as
the kids start approaching their teen years and becoming adults, our
society expects parents to start "cracking down" and really
controlling their lives so they don't "run amok". I don't know any
other 9 yo boys who have their ears pierced. Usually for males, this
is something they do on their own perhaps in direct defiance of their
parents. So I guess I was just afraid for me! Afraid that other
parents were going to wonder what kind of mom I am for letting my son
pierce his ear so young. I know it is dumb.
But you know what? I am really glad that we found unschooling so that
when my son asks to get his ear pierced, we can go out and have a good
time doing it and the only thing bothering me is a little niggling
fear that other people are going to think bad about me. That is such
a small fear and easy to get over compared to all the traditional
households out there that would have seen their's son's request as
evidence that he is going astray. And they would not only fear what
other people think but a whole slew of other things too. Which would
have resulted in a big argument that would have diminished their
relationship instead of strenghtening it. I am glad that I don't have
to live my life in fear. I am glad that I can love my son for who he
is, piercings and all.
-Alice
joyfully living in North Idaho with Ordell, Andrew 9, Audrey 6, Megan
17,
Carrie Kimball
Hi Alice,
I am glad to hear you getting to the heart of your internal fears and blocks with parenting on this issue. For me, that is the most beneficial part of this style of parenting is that it makes me really look at where my hesitations and reactions are coming from. I don't get the whole "army" thing, primarily because your home isn't the army. Things make sense it different contexts, so what goes on in the military or any job doesn't need to go on in a family. If what is really going on with DH is that the intense homphobia and sexism present in the military (as well as everywhere else) that is still unfortunately tolerated there, is creeping in and making him either fear the responses his son will get (because he sees it happen a lot), or feel those emotions toward his son (because the response is conditioned), then that is definately something to explore and work with as a couple. Irrespective of ones beliefs about gender and sexual orientation, like any area of our kids lives, imposing our fear based values and judgments causes them distress and makes for an alienated relationship.
My kids dad is on first glance a pretty sensitive new age guy whose good with the gay. But having two sons has brought out very intense and untapped emotions for him around gender expression and homophobia. He has found himself saying things to them about their clothing choices, or expressions of wants materially (including earrings) that are extremly sexist or heterosexist, and we try and be gentle with each other around that since it is nearly impossible to grow up here and not be socialized to experience discomfort with gender variances and anything except monogomous heterosexuality.
Humans experience a wide range of behaviors, and not all of them fit with their cultures present dictates around gender norms. It helps to think in terms of three different things: Gender identification- what you identify your gender to be, gender expression- what you feel most comfortable expressing as a gendered behavioral or asthetic sense, and sexual orientation- the gender of people who you partner with or have sex with. And even this dileniation is narrow because people are attracted to specific gender expressions as well. Some women are attracted to males, but ones who are very femme for example. And it is also important to see that these things exist on a continuum and change throughout the life cycle. While the culture pushes people to behave consistently a specific way, peoples desires, fantasies and needs really vary a lot over the course of a long life. The primary model for understanding the laws of the univers have been dichotomies- either or's. This or that. What many of us have come to realize, is that what is true for us is all of it some of the time. We feel like dressing this way over here, and that way over there. We fall for and enjoy dating this person here, and someone totally different over there. It's really the idea that everyone has to partition into camps with definitions that is the problem, and babies are born knowing this, and when raised freely, show that fluidity throught childhood too.
The reason I bring all this up, is that it helps to recognize that how someone expresses their gender isn't the same as their gender identity or their sexual orientation, and when boys especially act in ways that are culturally identified with "femininity", the trigger point is sometimes that this means they are gay, or that they are actually wanting to be women. And it doesn't. Either of those possibilities may also exist in a person, but they are not givens. Most people probably think "of course!" when they hear this, but actually, we can know things cognitively and then experience it a whole different way when confronted with it in our kids.
I live in a really really queer community. Most everyone we know is either gender queer- androgenous, transgendered or sexually queer. And people have a really wide variance for expressing their identified genders that makes it hard to know what anyones chosen pronouns might be. It might seem in light of this that my kids expressions of gender variance would be easy for me, but not so. I feel fear, I say ridiculous things to them, I find myself slacking on consiously choosing books that present a less narrow perspective of the world. And I feel fear a lot about wanting my kids lives to be easy, and knowing that if they are trans, or gay, or neither but behave too sensitively even, then the external world will be cruel and harsh to them in some ways I want to spare them from. I see sometimes that what I say and do comes from that head space, and then I can stop and recognize the absurdity of it. The truth that life will sometimes be hard for everyone, and that it will be hardest actually for people who feel they are trapped inside bodies or lives they hate and don't feel real in. That this would be the wore fate actually. And then there is the reality that I am not in charge anyway. Probably 90% of the folks I know who are trans grew up in very heterosexist and gender normative nuclear families with religious training. They ended up who they are anyway, but with really estarnged or not present relationships with their families. So I don't believe that I can actually affect this beyond giving the message of unconditional love and acceptance.
It seems like a long way to go from an earring, but with parenting, the nerves that are touched are always much much deeper than the surface:)
carrie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am glad to hear you getting to the heart of your internal fears and blocks with parenting on this issue. For me, that is the most beneficial part of this style of parenting is that it makes me really look at where my hesitations and reactions are coming from. I don't get the whole "army" thing, primarily because your home isn't the army. Things make sense it different contexts, so what goes on in the military or any job doesn't need to go on in a family. If what is really going on with DH is that the intense homphobia and sexism present in the military (as well as everywhere else) that is still unfortunately tolerated there, is creeping in and making him either fear the responses his son will get (because he sees it happen a lot), or feel those emotions toward his son (because the response is conditioned), then that is definately something to explore and work with as a couple. Irrespective of ones beliefs about gender and sexual orientation, like any area of our kids lives, imposing our fear based values and judgments causes them distress and makes for an alienated relationship.
My kids dad is on first glance a pretty sensitive new age guy whose good with the gay. But having two sons has brought out very intense and untapped emotions for him around gender expression and homophobia. He has found himself saying things to them about their clothing choices, or expressions of wants materially (including earrings) that are extremly sexist or heterosexist, and we try and be gentle with each other around that since it is nearly impossible to grow up here and not be socialized to experience discomfort with gender variances and anything except monogomous heterosexuality.
Humans experience a wide range of behaviors, and not all of them fit with their cultures present dictates around gender norms. It helps to think in terms of three different things: Gender identification- what you identify your gender to be, gender expression- what you feel most comfortable expressing as a gendered behavioral or asthetic sense, and sexual orientation- the gender of people who you partner with or have sex with. And even this dileniation is narrow because people are attracted to specific gender expressions as well. Some women are attracted to males, but ones who are very femme for example. And it is also important to see that these things exist on a continuum and change throughout the life cycle. While the culture pushes people to behave consistently a specific way, peoples desires, fantasies and needs really vary a lot over the course of a long life. The primary model for understanding the laws of the univers have been dichotomies- either or's. This or that. What many of us have come to realize, is that what is true for us is all of it some of the time. We feel like dressing this way over here, and that way over there. We fall for and enjoy dating this person here, and someone totally different over there. It's really the idea that everyone has to partition into camps with definitions that is the problem, and babies are born knowing this, and when raised freely, show that fluidity throught childhood too.
The reason I bring all this up, is that it helps to recognize that how someone expresses their gender isn't the same as their gender identity or their sexual orientation, and when boys especially act in ways that are culturally identified with "femininity", the trigger point is sometimes that this means they are gay, or that they are actually wanting to be women. And it doesn't. Either of those possibilities may also exist in a person, but they are not givens. Most people probably think "of course!" when they hear this, but actually, we can know things cognitively and then experience it a whole different way when confronted with it in our kids.
I live in a really really queer community. Most everyone we know is either gender queer- androgenous, transgendered or sexually queer. And people have a really wide variance for expressing their identified genders that makes it hard to know what anyones chosen pronouns might be. It might seem in light of this that my kids expressions of gender variance would be easy for me, but not so. I feel fear, I say ridiculous things to them, I find myself slacking on consiously choosing books that present a less narrow perspective of the world. And I feel fear a lot about wanting my kids lives to be easy, and knowing that if they are trans, or gay, or neither but behave too sensitively even, then the external world will be cruel and harsh to them in some ways I want to spare them from. I see sometimes that what I say and do comes from that head space, and then I can stop and recognize the absurdity of it. The truth that life will sometimes be hard for everyone, and that it will be hardest actually for people who feel they are trapped inside bodies or lives they hate and don't feel real in. That this would be the wore fate actually. And then there is the reality that I am not in charge anyway. Probably 90% of the folks I know who are trans grew up in very heterosexist and gender normative nuclear families with religious training. They ended up who they are anyway, but with really estarnged or not present relationships with their families. So I don't believe that I can actually affect this beyond giving the message of unconditional love and acceptance.
It seems like a long way to go from an earring, but with parenting, the nerves that are touched are always much much deeper than the surface:)
carrie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tag23x2
--- In [email protected], "Alice" <thesackmans@...>
wrote:
but did his 1st piercing when he was about 9 yrs. old; he now has 2 in
each ear & started with plain gold studs, then hoops, & now diamonds.
Looks very nice...not girlish at all. My younger son is now 12 (today)
& got his ear pierced at 5 yrs. old....could be because of his brother,
but he wanted it done, so we let him. He's now thinking about getting
his other ear done too...but when he decides for sure we'll take him.
As long as our kids know all the facts first, they are able to decide
for themselves....& we allow them to. ***One tip though...my older son
got 2 holes pierced in the same ear on the same day, & he does not
recommend that at all...too painful!
wrote:
>I have 2 sons who both have their ears pierced. My oldest is now 17,
> My 9 yr son wants to get his ears pierced.
but did his 1st piercing when he was about 9 yrs. old; he now has 2 in
each ear & started with plain gold studs, then hoops, & now diamonds.
Looks very nice...not girlish at all. My younger son is now 12 (today)
& got his ear pierced at 5 yrs. old....could be because of his brother,
but he wanted it done, so we let him. He's now thinking about getting
his other ear done too...but when he decides for sure we'll take him.
As long as our kids know all the facts first, they are able to decide
for themselves....& we allow them to. ***One tip though...my older son
got 2 holes pierced in the same ear on the same day, & he does not
recommend that at all...too painful!
>
freida
In todays world people are homophobic with an Puritan based society.
When my son was 9 he wanted to have his ear pierced and I told him he
could when he turn 13 . This way he would have a few years to think
about it before we have it done. I also knew that his father would
have a issue with it. Since he was raised in a Baptist background. I
never told his dad. So on Logan's birthday he reminded me that he
wanted his ear pierced. So off we went and his dad called home to say
Happy Birthday to Logan and the other boys told him where we went. So
I had to listen to him when we got home. He accused me if the boys
wanted to drink beer that I would buy it for him. I ended up saying
that kids has no real control in their life that hair and having their
ear pierced was minor.
Logan also did Ballet and tap, that was another issue with poor old
dad. You should of saw him when I bought Logan a Native American and a
Horse. The problem was that the only ones that I could find was in the
girls section and the boxes were pink. The in-laws also had a issue
with it. I ended up changing a lot of the families programmed thought
patterns. When Logan turn 8 paternal grandmother bought him a doll.
Funny that there was no comment on that.
My other son when he was 5 wanted finger nail polish and when my ex
asked me what he wanted I told him about a turn table that had
sprinkles, files and polish. He had major issues with that even saying
that i was going to turn the boy gay. Little Colby did get some nail
polish in his sock for Christmas. You never saw a happy kid. Father's
face was not happy when Colby showed him, but that was that.
Today my three sons are 18,17 and 15. they are handsome lads two with
long hair and the eldest did have long hair but now it is cut real
short. I work hard on them being happy with themselves since in this
world kids have issues with self-esteem.
just my thoughts
freida
When my son was 9 he wanted to have his ear pierced and I told him he
could when he turn 13 . This way he would have a few years to think
about it before we have it done. I also knew that his father would
have a issue with it. Since he was raised in a Baptist background. I
never told his dad. So on Logan's birthday he reminded me that he
wanted his ear pierced. So off we went and his dad called home to say
Happy Birthday to Logan and the other boys told him where we went. So
I had to listen to him when we got home. He accused me if the boys
wanted to drink beer that I would buy it for him. I ended up saying
that kids has no real control in their life that hair and having their
ear pierced was minor.
Logan also did Ballet and tap, that was another issue with poor old
dad. You should of saw him when I bought Logan a Native American and a
Horse. The problem was that the only ones that I could find was in the
girls section and the boxes were pink. The in-laws also had a issue
with it. I ended up changing a lot of the families programmed thought
patterns. When Logan turn 8 paternal grandmother bought him a doll.
Funny that there was no comment on that.
My other son when he was 5 wanted finger nail polish and when my ex
asked me what he wanted I told him about a turn table that had
sprinkles, files and polish. He had major issues with that even saying
that i was going to turn the boy gay. Little Colby did get some nail
polish in his sock for Christmas. You never saw a happy kid. Father's
face was not happy when Colby showed him, but that was that.
Today my three sons are 18,17 and 15. they are handsome lads two with
long hair and the eldest did have long hair but now it is cut real
short. I work hard on them being happy with themselves since in this
world kids have issues with self-esteem.
just my thoughts
freida