family money/allowances
Chris
Hi all--
We're new homeschoolers and now trying to learn about unschooling as
we seem to be being pulled strongly in that direction. I've been
doing lots of reading here, websites and books. So, while I feel
that I am starting to "get" this in my head, I still feel like I
have a long way to go to get it in terms of what it looks like in
actual practice in certain situations.
One of the issues I have been pondering in general and now
specifically in relation to unschooling is how to approach money
with kids. We've been giving our kids allowances (ages 4 and 7) b/c
we want them to have $$ that belongs to them that we don't have any
say over how they spend. But then I find I have a hard time keeping
mouth shut when they spend 79 cents on what I am pretty sure will
become another piece of flotsam in our house!
This has been compounded by my and my husband's recent decision to
try not to buy anything new for a year. We have not imposed this on
the kids though we are really trying to focus more on "collecting
experiences instead of stuff" and the help them take this in.
So . . . I'm unsure about allowances (they're not tied to chsores
though we do give them ways to earn extra $$) and deciding on how to
share the family money, how to make consistent decisions about when
we'll give more $$ to buy something they want but don't have the $$
for. I guess the rub I see is that for things that or more expensive
and that we choose to buy, we are controlling them in saying what
we'll buy or what we want.
Am I making any sense? So I'd really appreciate some feedback on how
others approach and think about this.
I've just read Ren's book, Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewards and am
going for my 2nd read of Unconditional Parenting! So, I'm on the
road here but really need some guides!
Thanks,
Chris
We're new homeschoolers and now trying to learn about unschooling as
we seem to be being pulled strongly in that direction. I've been
doing lots of reading here, websites and books. So, while I feel
that I am starting to "get" this in my head, I still feel like I
have a long way to go to get it in terms of what it looks like in
actual practice in certain situations.
One of the issues I have been pondering in general and now
specifically in relation to unschooling is how to approach money
with kids. We've been giving our kids allowances (ages 4 and 7) b/c
we want them to have $$ that belongs to them that we don't have any
say over how they spend. But then I find I have a hard time keeping
mouth shut when they spend 79 cents on what I am pretty sure will
become another piece of flotsam in our house!
This has been compounded by my and my husband's recent decision to
try not to buy anything new for a year. We have not imposed this on
the kids though we are really trying to focus more on "collecting
experiences instead of stuff" and the help them take this in.
So . . . I'm unsure about allowances (they're not tied to chsores
though we do give them ways to earn extra $$) and deciding on how to
share the family money, how to make consistent decisions about when
we'll give more $$ to buy something they want but don't have the $$
for. I guess the rub I see is that for things that or more expensive
and that we choose to buy, we are controlling them in saying what
we'll buy or what we want.
Am I making any sense? So I'd really appreciate some feedback on how
others approach and think about this.
I've just read Ren's book, Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewards and am
going for my 2nd read of Unconditional Parenting! So, I'm on the
road here but really need some guides!
Thanks,
Chris
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "Chris" <chris1962@...>
wrote:
breath instead of saying something, and make an effort to see the
purchase from your kid's perspective. Use that moment as an
opportunity to learn more about your child.
and see how you are living them in the moment. Its possible that you
have a couple values that are in conflict - maybe you want to
support learning and joy on the one hand, and reject materialism on
the other. One of the things that really helps *me* is to pick apart
Big concepts into smaller, more basic ideas. Another is to re-frame
negative concepts as positives. So with "rejecting materialism" -
can you break that into bite-size pieces? What *is* materialism in
your mind? At the same time, can you turn the idea around - rather
than rejecting, what are you trying to cultivate?
Maybe you *can* say Yes and still uphold these other principles.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
wrote:
> But then I find I have a hard time keepingAre you sucessful? If not, that's something to work on. Take a deep
> mouth shut when they spend 79 cents on what I am pretty sure will
> become another piece of flotsam in our house!
breath instead of saying something, and make an effort to see the
purchase from your kid's perspective. Use that moment as an
opportunity to learn more about your child.
> I guess the rub I see is that for things that or more expensiveThis is a good opportunity for you to really examine your principles
> and that we choose to buy, we are controlling them in saying what
> we'll buy or what we want.
and see how you are living them in the moment. Its possible that you
have a couple values that are in conflict - maybe you want to
support learning and joy on the one hand, and reject materialism on
the other. One of the things that really helps *me* is to pick apart
Big concepts into smaller, more basic ideas. Another is to re-frame
negative concepts as positives. So with "rejecting materialism" -
can you break that into bite-size pieces? What *is* materialism in
your mind? At the same time, can you turn the idea around - rather
than rejecting, what are you trying to cultivate?
Maybe you *can* say Yes and still uphold these other principles.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "Chris" <chris1962@...>
wrote:
breath instead of saying something, and make an effort to see the
purchase from your kid's perspective. Use that moment as an
opportunity to learn more about your child.
and see how you are living them in the moment. Its possible that you
have a couple values that are in conflict - maybe you want to
support learning and joy on the one hand, and reject materialism on
the other. One of the things that really helps *me* is to pick apart
Big concepts into smaller, more basic ideas. Another is to re-frame
negative concepts as positives. So with "rejecting materialism" -
can you break that into bite-size pieces? What *is* materialism in
your mind? At the same time, can you turn the idea around - rather
than rejecting, what are you trying to cultivate?
Maybe you *can* say Yes and still uphold these other principles.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
wrote:
> But then I find I have a hard time keepingAre you sucessful? If not, that's something to work on. Take a deep
> mouth shut when they spend 79 cents on what I am pretty sure will
> become another piece of flotsam in our house!
breath instead of saying something, and make an effort to see the
purchase from your kid's perspective. Use that moment as an
opportunity to learn more about your child.
> I guess the rub I see is that for things that or more expensiveThis is a good opportunity for you to really examine your principles
> and that we choose to buy, we are controlling them in saying what
> we'll buy or what we want.
and see how you are living them in the moment. Its possible that you
have a couple values that are in conflict - maybe you want to
support learning and joy on the one hand, and reject materialism on
the other. One of the things that really helps *me* is to pick apart
Big concepts into smaller, more basic ideas. Another is to re-frame
negative concepts as positives. So with "rejecting materialism" -
can you break that into bite-size pieces? What *is* materialism in
your mind? At the same time, can you turn the idea around - rather
than rejecting, what are you trying to cultivate?
Maybe you *can* say Yes and still uphold these other principles.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
zanyzingzap
This was so awesome to read for me! I am struggling in a similar place
with allowance and money and conflicting "values" around it. Thanks
for the idea to break it into smaller things to look at, I am going to
spend some time considering this and am open to hear what others come
up with as well...
lisa
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <
with allowance and money and conflicting "values" around it. Thanks
for the idea to break it into smaller things to look at, I am going to
spend some time considering this and am open to hear what others come
up with as well...
lisa
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <
> Maybe you *can* say Yes and still uphold these other principles.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>
zanyzingzap
This was so awesome to read for me! I am struggling in a similar place
with allowance and money and conflicting "values" around it. Thanks
for the idea to break it into smaller things to look at, I am going to
spend some time considering this and am open to hear what others come
up with as well...
lisa
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <
with allowance and money and conflicting "values" around it. Thanks
for the idea to break it into smaller things to look at, I am going to
spend some time considering this and am open to hear what others come
up with as well...
lisa
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <
> Maybe you *can* say Yes and still uphold these other principles.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: chris1962@...
One of the issues I have been pondering in general and now
specifically in relation to unschooling is how to approach money
with kids. We've been giving our kids allowances (ages 4 and 7) b/c
we want them to have $$ that belongs to them that we don't have any
say over how they spend. But then I find I have a hard time keeping
mouth shut when they spend 79 cents on what I am pretty sure will
become another piece of flotsam in our house!
-=-=-=-=-
I think one of the biggest problems with allowances (and we were guilty
of this too) is that the parents give the children a pittance and then
expect them to make good decisions with that tiny amount of $$.
Different when I was a kid. I got a quarter a week. But the things I
wanted when I was that age really didn't cost much: I could save up
pretty quickly. I mean---for example: I was getting a DIME an hour for
baby-sitting at 13. When I went up to a quarter an hour, you'd thunk
the world was coming to an end! <bwg> Things were CHEAP! That's my teen
years, but as a child a quarter was a good it of money. You could get
two candy bars. A "big" toy was only 4-5 dollars---so saving up didn't
take long---especially when you could find half of the cost between the
sofa cushions or on the street!
Anyway---things cost more now, plus the techno things are so big.
Duncan wants a game that costs $65---no matter how hard we look,
there'll never be nearly that in the sofa cushions!
So IF you're going to give an allowance, make sure it's enough to get
them what they'll want---not necessarily all at once, but what they can
reasonably save.
We started out giving like $2/week or something like that. The boys
would spend it on two candy bars. The DAY they got it. But if you
think about it, it kind of makes sense. If they were to try to save,
we're talking about 6-7 MONTHS to save for a game---IF they don't spend
*any* and IF they're interested in *that* game still and IF it's still
around and IF....so it's not unreasonable to think that it would make
more sense to just go ahead and spend it on something small NOW.
So Ben & I talked about upping it *considerably* as all the unschoolers
suggested. So Duncan suddenly got $50/month (I think...Cameron got
more.) instead of $2/week. That was SOOOO doable for him! He could
spend a little but save a LOT towards a new game. He could buy 2-3 used
games. He could actually *make decisions* about his money. AND buy a
candy bar! <G> But it was the decision-making that was important!
It has made ALL the difference in how he handles money. Of course, it
didn't happen overnight! At first he spent every penny, but it very
quickly changed to understanding how he could manipulate the funds.
So if you're going to do the allowance thang, make it worth their while.
-=-=-=-=-=-=
This has been compounded by my and my husband's recent decision to
try not to buy anything new for a year. We have not imposed this on
the kids though we are really trying to focus more on "collecting
experiences instead of stuff" and the help them take this in.
-=-=-=-=-=--=
Can you make this "no buying new" experiment have a definite "end date"
so that they children will know when it's over? Maybe a small party to
show "we did it?"
Ben and I talked about it when it made some news a few months back.
People doing it for "fun" and to see how it felt. We did it for YEARS
because we HAD to. I don't feel that need anymore. <g> Honorable, but
we've "been there." In fact, other than mattresses, I don't know of one
piece of furniture we've ever bought new. Looking around---I can't see
one! <G>
Still, there are many kids' games available used too! Dunc's PS2 was
used. GREAT deal! Still expensive, and at $2/week, he could never have
bought it. *I* bought it for him, but it was so much more affordable
than brand new---and it works great. He's saving for a Wii now. It
would be obsolete by the time he saved enough $2/weeks!
-=-=-=-=-=-
So . . . I'm unsure about allowances (they're not tied to chsores
though we do give them ways to earn extra $$) and deciding on how to
share the family money, how to make consistent decisions about when
we'll give more $$ to buy something they want but don't have the $$
for. I guess the rub I see is that for things that or more expensive
and that we choose to buy, we are controlling them in saying what
we'll buy or what we want.
-=-=-==-
Are they allowed a say when you waste $4 on a cup of designer coffee?
<g>
That one always cracks me up. Kids can't buy a $3 toy, but mom can turn
right around and buy a $4 cup o' Joe.
-=-=-=-=-
I've just read Ren's book, Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewards and am
going for my 2nd read of Unconditional Parenting! So, I'm on the
road here but really need some guides!
-=-=-=-=
RUE's book, but that's OK---they get mixed up all the time. They even
share a birthday! <g>
After meeting them both, you wouldn't mistake them again---promise!
<bwg> Ren's the LOUD one. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: chris1962@...
One of the issues I have been pondering in general and now
specifically in relation to unschooling is how to approach money
with kids. We've been giving our kids allowances (ages 4 and 7) b/c
we want them to have $$ that belongs to them that we don't have any
say over how they spend. But then I find I have a hard time keeping
mouth shut when they spend 79 cents on what I am pretty sure will
become another piece of flotsam in our house!
-=-=-=-=-
I think one of the biggest problems with allowances (and we were guilty
of this too) is that the parents give the children a pittance and then
expect them to make good decisions with that tiny amount of $$.
Different when I was a kid. I got a quarter a week. But the things I
wanted when I was that age really didn't cost much: I could save up
pretty quickly. I mean---for example: I was getting a DIME an hour for
baby-sitting at 13. When I went up to a quarter an hour, you'd thunk
the world was coming to an end! <bwg> Things were CHEAP! That's my teen
years, but as a child a quarter was a good it of money. You could get
two candy bars. A "big" toy was only 4-5 dollars---so saving up didn't
take long---especially when you could find half of the cost between the
sofa cushions or on the street!
Anyway---things cost more now, plus the techno things are so big.
Duncan wants a game that costs $65---no matter how hard we look,
there'll never be nearly that in the sofa cushions!
So IF you're going to give an allowance, make sure it's enough to get
them what they'll want---not necessarily all at once, but what they can
reasonably save.
We started out giving like $2/week or something like that. The boys
would spend it on two candy bars. The DAY they got it. But if you
think about it, it kind of makes sense. If they were to try to save,
we're talking about 6-7 MONTHS to save for a game---IF they don't spend
*any* and IF they're interested in *that* game still and IF it's still
around and IF....so it's not unreasonable to think that it would make
more sense to just go ahead and spend it on something small NOW.
So Ben & I talked about upping it *considerably* as all the unschoolers
suggested. So Duncan suddenly got $50/month (I think...Cameron got
more.) instead of $2/week. That was SOOOO doable for him! He could
spend a little but save a LOT towards a new game. He could buy 2-3 used
games. He could actually *make decisions* about his money. AND buy a
candy bar! <G> But it was the decision-making that was important!
It has made ALL the difference in how he handles money. Of course, it
didn't happen overnight! At first he spent every penny, but it very
quickly changed to understanding how he could manipulate the funds.
So if you're going to do the allowance thang, make it worth their while.
-=-=-=-=-=-=
This has been compounded by my and my husband's recent decision to
try not to buy anything new for a year. We have not imposed this on
the kids though we are really trying to focus more on "collecting
experiences instead of stuff" and the help them take this in.
-=-=-=-=-=--=
Can you make this "no buying new" experiment have a definite "end date"
so that they children will know when it's over? Maybe a small party to
show "we did it?"
Ben and I talked about it when it made some news a few months back.
People doing it for "fun" and to see how it felt. We did it for YEARS
because we HAD to. I don't feel that need anymore. <g> Honorable, but
we've "been there." In fact, other than mattresses, I don't know of one
piece of furniture we've ever bought new. Looking around---I can't see
one! <G>
Still, there are many kids' games available used too! Dunc's PS2 was
used. GREAT deal! Still expensive, and at $2/week, he could never have
bought it. *I* bought it for him, but it was so much more affordable
than brand new---and it works great. He's saving for a Wii now. It
would be obsolete by the time he saved enough $2/weeks!
-=-=-=-=-=-
So . . . I'm unsure about allowances (they're not tied to chsores
though we do give them ways to earn extra $$) and deciding on how to
share the family money, how to make consistent decisions about when
we'll give more $$ to buy something they want but don't have the $$
for. I guess the rub I see is that for things that or more expensive
and that we choose to buy, we are controlling them in saying what
we'll buy or what we want.
-=-=-==-
Are they allowed a say when you waste $4 on a cup of designer coffee?
<g>
That one always cracks me up. Kids can't buy a $3 toy, but mom can turn
right around and buy a $4 cup o' Joe.
-=-=-=-=-
I've just read Ren's book, Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewards and am
going for my 2nd read of Unconditional Parenting! So, I'm on the
road here but really need some guides!
-=-=-=-=
RUE's book, but that's OK---they get mixed up all the time. They even
share a birthday! <g>
After meeting them both, you wouldn't mistake them again---promise!
<bwg> Ren's the LOUD one. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Melissa
Kelly,
again I appreciate how you word things. I wanted to emphasize two of
the items in your email.
First is the size of allowance, you are SO right. People get so stuck
on dollar amounts, and rarely consider the needs or interests of the
child. The best suggestion I ever read was to look at how much stuff
costs in your area (because as I've noticed during our travels, even
the cost of a candy bar varies GREATLY from area to area!) This guy
suggested looking at how much some junk food, a few drinks, and some
little toys costs. Then add a few dollars to save, amount depending on
your own budget.
The second you mentioned about limiting the time frame. We are trying
to get out of debt, and really needed to focus on saving cash for our
trip. Most of the kids were okay with not buying toys or a lot of junk
food (in fact, Emily has been very adamant every time we are
shopping), but Josh was very stressed out about it, especially as we
approach the release dates of several Wii games. However, when I
suggested that we try it for five months (until the conference date)
and reassess, he was more than willing to forgo allowance. Two years
ago I don't think he could have agreed to no allowance.
For what it's worth, Josh was getting about $5 a week, the girls were
up to $3. After our time frame, we'll be reassessing though, and I
imagine they'll be getting more (partly because our debt will be
better under control)
Melissa
again I appreciate how you word things. I wanted to emphasize two of
the items in your email.
First is the size of allowance, you are SO right. People get so stuck
on dollar amounts, and rarely consider the needs or interests of the
child. The best suggestion I ever read was to look at how much stuff
costs in your area (because as I've noticed during our travels, even
the cost of a candy bar varies GREATLY from area to area!) This guy
suggested looking at how much some junk food, a few drinks, and some
little toys costs. Then add a few dollars to save, amount depending on
your own budget.
The second you mentioned about limiting the time frame. We are trying
to get out of debt, and really needed to focus on saving cash for our
trip. Most of the kids were okay with not buying toys or a lot of junk
food (in fact, Emily has been very adamant every time we are
shopping), but Josh was very stressed out about it, especially as we
approach the release dates of several Wii games. However, when I
suggested that we try it for five months (until the conference date)
and reassess, he was more than willing to forgo allowance. Two years
ago I don't think he could have agreed to no allowance.
For what it's worth, Josh was getting about $5 a week, the girls were
up to $3. After our time frame, we'll be reassessing though, and I
imagine they'll be getting more (partly because our debt will be
better under control)
Melissa
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
> I think one of the biggest problems with allowances (and we were guilty
> of this too) is that the parents give the children a pittance and then
> expect them to make good decisions with that tiny amount of $$.
<snip>
> Can you make this "no buying new" experiment have a definite "end date"
> so that they children will know when it's over? Maybe a small party to
> show "we did it?"
>