I've lost it....
thisismaggiesemailaddress
has anyone here ever looked at the scopes and sequences or list of
things a preschooler or Kindergardener should know? I read all the
stuff we're suppose to teach or our kids "have to" know in a year and I
wanted to wack my head repeatedly into a large brick wall.
some of it wants makes you say duhh how can a kid avoid learning that
and others want make you think things like, huh? my 3 year old "needs"
to know how to read by 4? (um it's ok to wait til 6 right?)
I read waaay too much. I need to go find my brain...it short circuited,
lol
You'll have to forgive me...I'm still new
things a preschooler or Kindergardener should know? I read all the
stuff we're suppose to teach or our kids "have to" know in a year and I
wanted to wack my head repeatedly into a large brick wall.
some of it wants makes you say duhh how can a kid avoid learning that
and others want make you think things like, huh? my 3 year old "needs"
to know how to read by 4? (um it's ok to wait til 6 right?)
I read waaay too much. I need to go find my brain...it short circuited,
lol
You'll have to forgive me...I'm still new
Vickisue Gray
I'm impressed you could get through it!
The public school's scopes and sequences are written in code.
You need a translator to wade through it.
Personally, I've stopped caring what they say.
Vicki
thisismaggiesemailaddress <thisismaggiesemailaddress@...> wrote:
has anyone here ever looked at the scopes and sequences or list of
things a preschooler or Kindergardener should know? I read all the
stuff we're suppose to teach or our kids "have to" know in a year and I
wanted to wack my head repeatedly into a large brick wall.
some of it wants makes you say duhh how can a kid avoid learning that
and others want make you think things like, huh? my 3 year old "needs"
to know how to read by 4? (um it's ok to wait til 6 right?)
I read waaay too much. I need to go find my brain...it short circuited,
lol
You'll have to forgive me...I'm still new
---------------------------------
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The public school's scopes and sequences are written in code.
You need a translator to wade through it.
Personally, I've stopped caring what they say.
Vicki
thisismaggiesemailaddress <thisismaggiesemailaddress@...> wrote:
has anyone here ever looked at the scopes and sequences or list of
things a preschooler or Kindergardener should know? I read all the
stuff we're suppose to teach or our kids "have to" know in a year and I
wanted to wack my head repeatedly into a large brick wall.
some of it wants makes you say duhh how can a kid avoid learning that
and others want make you think things like, huh? my 3 year old "needs"
to know how to read by 4? (um it's ok to wait til 6 right?)
I read waaay too much. I need to go find my brain...it short circuited,
lol
You'll have to forgive me...I'm still new
---------------------------------
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mindy Evans
LOL, when I read same thing a couple of months back, I immediately had an anxiety attack, I was thinking, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?????
I'm with you, still trying to shake what the school system is telling me they should know....
(breathing) in,out,in,out,in,out.........<giggle>
God Bless You and yours
Mindy Evans
mindyevans@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm with you, still trying to shake what the school system is telling me they should know....
(breathing) in,out,in,out,in,out.........<giggle>
God Bless You and yours
Mindy Evans
mindyevans@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
trektheory
I suspect if you listed all the things your 3 or 4 or whatever age
(I'm assuming you have a little one?) knows right now, you might be
impressed.
Also, if you look at those lists, there are SOME commonalities, but
there are some very huge differences, because they are that person's
(or committee's) opinion of what that age/grade should know. Recently
a friend told me that the charter school in our state doesn't accept
Math U See because it doesn't meet state standards -- "Well, they
don't even introduce money until third grade!" Well, what 5 yr old
needs a book to learn about money? "Grandpa gave me this quarter!" I
remember my niece at age 5, just lost a tooth, told us, "I'll put it
under my pillow and the tooth fairy will take it and leave a nickel or
a quarter, or a dollar!" (And my bil said, "Or a nickel.") I think
she had the concept of money down pretty well!
Knowing how to read -- what are they discussing? Reading readiness
skills, or reading? What level? Etc. Some kids learn to read by
four, but most don't. If they want to learn to read, fine. But I
remember the K my son went to (private) "taught" the kids to read. My
son was reading before then, one boy wasn't. All the kids came home
with a dippy "I learned to read in Kindergarten" thingie, but the next
year one mother said her son hadn't learned to read, really. So, what
measure do you use to define reading?
Math? It is a very natural, integrated part of life, despite the fact
that people get scared by the word often.
History and language arts are VERY content driven, so how on earth can
anyone say what a certain age/grade "should" know?
And who ever said that all children do exactly the same thing at the
same time. There is a normal range that walking begins, but if you
don't have a walker by age one, it doesn't mean you have a problem.
Just someone who isn't ready to walk yet. My son couldn't make the
long E sound until 17 months. Just a quirk of his wiring. No "long
E" lessons were ever needed, nor suggested. Yet expecting a child to
read at 4? It's not only okay to wait until they are ready, 6 or
whenever, it's generally a good idea.
Don't bother whacking your head on a brick wall over this -- those
things aren't worth it!
Linda
--- In [email protected], "thisismaggiesemailaddress"
<thisismaggiesemailaddress@...> wrote:
(I'm assuming you have a little one?) knows right now, you might be
impressed.
Also, if you look at those lists, there are SOME commonalities, but
there are some very huge differences, because they are that person's
(or committee's) opinion of what that age/grade should know. Recently
a friend told me that the charter school in our state doesn't accept
Math U See because it doesn't meet state standards -- "Well, they
don't even introduce money until third grade!" Well, what 5 yr old
needs a book to learn about money? "Grandpa gave me this quarter!" I
remember my niece at age 5, just lost a tooth, told us, "I'll put it
under my pillow and the tooth fairy will take it and leave a nickel or
a quarter, or a dollar!" (And my bil said, "Or a nickel.") I think
she had the concept of money down pretty well!
Knowing how to read -- what are they discussing? Reading readiness
skills, or reading? What level? Etc. Some kids learn to read by
four, but most don't. If they want to learn to read, fine. But I
remember the K my son went to (private) "taught" the kids to read. My
son was reading before then, one boy wasn't. All the kids came home
with a dippy "I learned to read in Kindergarten" thingie, but the next
year one mother said her son hadn't learned to read, really. So, what
measure do you use to define reading?
Math? It is a very natural, integrated part of life, despite the fact
that people get scared by the word often.
History and language arts are VERY content driven, so how on earth can
anyone say what a certain age/grade "should" know?
And who ever said that all children do exactly the same thing at the
same time. There is a normal range that walking begins, but if you
don't have a walker by age one, it doesn't mean you have a problem.
Just someone who isn't ready to walk yet. My son couldn't make the
long E sound until 17 months. Just a quirk of his wiring. No "long
E" lessons were ever needed, nor suggested. Yet expecting a child to
read at 4? It's not only okay to wait until they are ready, 6 or
whenever, it's generally a good idea.
Don't bother whacking your head on a brick wall over this -- those
things aren't worth it!
Linda
--- In [email protected], "thisismaggiesemailaddress"
<thisismaggiesemailaddress@...> wrote:
>
> has anyone here ever looked at the scopes and sequences or list of
> things a preschooler or Kindergardener should know? I read all the
> stuff we're suppose to teach or our kids "have to" know in a year and I
> wanted to wack my head repeatedly into a large brick wall.
>
> and others want make you think things like, huh? my 3 year old "needs"
> to know how to read by 4? (um it's ok to wait til 6 right?)
Tracy
I just pulled my 5 yo out of K because she was not learning her letters
FAST enough or how to read yet.(she knows all her letters she is just
VERY shy and needs to connect to be verbal, so she won't TELL the
teacher she knows them therefore, she doesn't know them PS at it's
best?) They act like she will be illiterate if she doesn't read soon.
Whatever. My 13 yo read 2 weeks into K she was also older, my 5 yo
turned 5 two weeks after school started, my 13 yo was reading on a
third grade reading level in 1st grade, by 4th grade she was on a 4th
grade level, whatever a 3rd, 4th etc reading level is, I wish I would
have known about the options for my state when she was in first grade,
so I could have saved her those labels and all in PS, I pulled her out
after 5th grade. She says she will never go back to public school
again, that is music to my ears. When I told my 5 yo she was a
homeschooler like her sister, she was SOOO happy. I regret ever bending
to family pressure to send her to K.
Tracy
FAST enough or how to read yet.(she knows all her letters she is just
VERY shy and needs to connect to be verbal, so she won't TELL the
teacher she knows them therefore, she doesn't know them PS at it's
best?) They act like she will be illiterate if she doesn't read soon.
Whatever. My 13 yo read 2 weeks into K she was also older, my 5 yo
turned 5 two weeks after school started, my 13 yo was reading on a
third grade reading level in 1st grade, by 4th grade she was on a 4th
grade level, whatever a 3rd, 4th etc reading level is, I wish I would
have known about the options for my state when she was in first grade,
so I could have saved her those labels and all in PS, I pulled her out
after 5th grade. She says she will never go back to public school
again, that is music to my ears. When I told my 5 yo she was a
homeschooler like her sister, she was SOOO happy. I regret ever bending
to family pressure to send her to K.
Tracy
David Johnson
Heavens, in a Waldorf school, many children don�t start learning to read
until 7! Research backs up �later� reading as better. I�ll see if I
can find it if you want it. Relax and go with the needs and natural
interests of your child, although, on a personal note, don�t be afraid
to push just a little when they get frustrated. If frustration
continues into a battle between you and your child, it�s time to let it
go, IMO.
~Melissa :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
thisismaggiesemailaddress
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 3:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] I've lost it....
has anyone here ever looked at the scopes and sequences or list of
things a preschooler or Kindergardener should know? I read all the
stuff we're suppose to teach or our kids "have to" know in a year and I
wanted to wack my head repeatedly into a large brick wall.
some of it wants makes you say duhh how can a kid avoid learning that
and others want make you think things like, huh? my 3 year old "needs"
to know how to read by 4? (um it's ok to wait til 6 right?)
I read waaay too much. I need to go find my brain...it short circuited,
lol
You'll have to forgive me...I'm still new
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
3/12/2007 7:19 PM
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
3/12/2007 7:19 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
until 7! Research backs up �later� reading as better. I�ll see if I
can find it if you want it. Relax and go with the needs and natural
interests of your child, although, on a personal note, don�t be afraid
to push just a little when they get frustrated. If frustration
continues into a battle between you and your child, it�s time to let it
go, IMO.
~Melissa :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
thisismaggiesemailaddress
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 3:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] I've lost it....
has anyone here ever looked at the scopes and sequences or list of
things a preschooler or Kindergardener should know? I read all the
stuff we're suppose to teach or our kids "have to" know in a year and I
wanted to wack my head repeatedly into a large brick wall.
some of it wants makes you say duhh how can a kid avoid learning that
and others want make you think things like, huh? my 3 year old "needs"
to know how to read by 4? (um it's ok to wait til 6 right?)
I read waaay too much. I need to go find my brain...it short circuited,
lol
You'll have to forgive me...I'm still new
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
3/12/2007 7:19 PM
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
3/12/2007 7:19 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
David Johnson
Oh, and I wanted to add that no matter WHAT the school system says is
�important� for your 3,4, 5, whatever-year-old to learn, little ones
(meaning babies to about age 5 or 6) should be PLAYING!!! That�s how
they learn, for goodness� sake! I don�t know WHY our schools won�t wake
up and smell the coffee about this. The research is there!
Ok, off my soapbox.
~Melissa :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
thisismaggiesemailaddress
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 3:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] I've lost it....
has anyone here ever looked at the scopes and sequences or list of
things a preschooler or Kindergardener should know? I read all the
stuff we're suppose to teach or our kids "have to" know in a year and I
wanted to wack my head repeatedly into a large brick wall.
some of it wants makes you say duhh how can a kid avoid learning that
and others want make you think things like, huh? my 3 year old "needs"
to know how to read by 4? (um it's ok to wait til 6 right?)
I read waaay too much. I need to go find my brain...it short circuited,
lol
You'll have to forgive me...I'm still new
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
3/12/2007 7:19 PM
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
3/12/2007 7:19 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
�important� for your 3,4, 5, whatever-year-old to learn, little ones
(meaning babies to about age 5 or 6) should be PLAYING!!! That�s how
they learn, for goodness� sake! I don�t know WHY our schools won�t wake
up and smell the coffee about this. The research is there!
Ok, off my soapbox.
~Melissa :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
thisismaggiesemailaddress
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 3:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] I've lost it....
has anyone here ever looked at the scopes and sequences or list of
things a preschooler or Kindergardener should know? I read all the
stuff we're suppose to teach or our kids "have to" know in a year and I
wanted to wack my head repeatedly into a large brick wall.
some of it wants makes you say duhh how can a kid avoid learning that
and others want make you think things like, huh? my 3 year old "needs"
to know how to read by 4? (um it's ok to wait til 6 right?)
I read waaay too much. I need to go find my brain...it short circuited,
lol
You'll have to forgive me...I'm still new
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
3/12/2007 7:19 PM
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
3/12/2007 7:19 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "Tracy" <TWAGNER3@...>
wrote:
letters individually. My gf's dd does - she can read entire
sentences but doesn't recognize individual letters or words
consistently unless they are meaningful in and of themselves - like
Walmart, or her initials. My stepson was similar, back when he was
learning - he needed a meaningful "chunk" of information or it was
all gibberish.
in K or preschool. Whew.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
wrote:
>letters
> I just pulled my 5 yo out of K because she was not learning her
> FAST enough or how to read yet.Just a side note, its possible to read *without* recognizing all the
letters individually. My gf's dd does - she can read entire
sentences but doesn't recognize individual letters or words
consistently unless they are meaningful in and of themselves - like
Walmart, or her initials. My stepson was similar, back when he was
learning - he needed a meaningful "chunk" of information or it was
all gibberish.
>(she knows all her letters she is justShudder! Thanks for one more reminder as to *why* I didn't put my dd
> VERY shy and needs to connect to be verbal, so she won't TELL the
> teacher she knows them therefore, she doesn't know them PS at it's
> best?)
in K or preschool. Whew.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: dj250@...
Oh, and I wanted to add that no matter WHAT the school system says is
“important” for your 3,4, 5, whatever-year-old to learn, little ones
(meaning babies to about age 5 or 6) should be PLAYING!!! That’s how
they learn, for goodness’ sake! I don’t know WHY our schools won’t wake
up and smell the coffee about this. The research is there!
-=-=-=-
Well, in *my* experience learning through play doesn't stop at five or
six---and certainly shouldn't be reserved only for the little ones!!
It's STILL my referred way to learn---and my boys' and husband's too!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
From: dj250@...
Oh, and I wanted to add that no matter WHAT the school system says is
“important” for your 3,4, 5, whatever-year-old to learn, little ones
(meaning babies to about age 5 or 6) should be PLAYING!!! That’s how
they learn, for goodness’ sake! I don’t know WHY our schools won’t wake
up and smell the coffee about this. The research is there!
-=-=-=-
Well, in *my* experience learning through play doesn't stop at five or
six---and certainly shouldn't be reserved only for the little ones!!
It's STILL my referred way to learn---and my boys' and husband's too!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
David Johnson
Yep, I agree! My 8 year-old (and 6 y.o.) still play for the majority of
their day! I guess I just meant that in terms of academics, this
country�s school system has gotten on the �early is better� bandwagon
and it�s simply wrong.
~Melissa J
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
kbcdlovejo@...
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] I've lost it....
-----Original Message-----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:dj250%40verizon.net"[email protected]
Oh, and I wanted to add that no matter WHAT the school system says is
�important� for your 3,4, 5, whatever-year--old to learn, little ones
(meaning babies to about age 5 or 6) should be PLAYING!!! That�s how
they learn, for goodness� sake! I don�t know WHY our schools won�t wake
up and smell the coffee about this. The research is there!
-=-=-=-
Well, in *my* experience learning through play doesn't stop at five or
six---and certainly shouldn't be reserved only for the little ones!!
It's STILL my referred way to learn---and my boys' and husband's too!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
HYPERLINK
"http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org"http://www.LiveandL-earnConferenc
e.-org
____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
3/12/2007 7:19 PM
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
3/12/2007 7:19 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
their day! I guess I just meant that in terms of academics, this
country�s school system has gotten on the �early is better� bandwagon
and it�s simply wrong.
~Melissa J
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
kbcdlovejo@...
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] I've lost it....
-----Original Message-----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:dj250%40verizon.net"[email protected]
Oh, and I wanted to add that no matter WHAT the school system says is
�important� for your 3,4, 5, whatever-year--old to learn, little ones
(meaning babies to about age 5 or 6) should be PLAYING!!! That�s how
they learn, for goodness� sake! I don�t know WHY our schools won�t wake
up and smell the coffee about this. The research is there!
-=-=-=-
Well, in *my* experience learning through play doesn't stop at five or
six---and certainly shouldn't be reserved only for the little ones!!
It's STILL my referred way to learn---and my boys' and husband's too!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
HYPERLINK
"http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org"http://www.LiveandL-earnConferenc
e.-org
____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
3/12/2007 7:19 PM
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
3/12/2007 7:19 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~ Relax and go with the needs and natural
interests of your child, although, on a personal note, don't be afraid
to push just a little when they get frustrated. ~~
Could you elaborate on that? Because when my child is frustrated, I
either stay close by to support if needed (as they figure out if they
are going to work through their own frustration with an activity or
stop) and/or help if asked. Pushing is the last thing I'd want to do
with a frustrated child.
And we're talking about reading ability, correct? Why would an
unschooling parent need to "push a little"? If one is to "relax and
go with the needs and natural interests of your child" then pushing is
contradictory to that philosophy.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
interests of your child, although, on a personal note, don't be afraid
to push just a little when they get frustrated. ~~
Could you elaborate on that? Because when my child is frustrated, I
either stay close by to support if needed (as they figure out if they
are going to work through their own frustration with an activity or
stop) and/or help if asked. Pushing is the last thing I'd want to do
with a frustrated child.
And we're talking about reading ability, correct? Why would an
unschooling parent need to "push a little"? If one is to "relax and
go with the needs and natural interests of your child" then pushing is
contradictory to that philosophy.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Tracy
> Shudder! Thanks for one more reminder as to *why* I didn't put my ddPutting her in K was a BIG mistake. I am so glad I was already aware of
> in K or preschool. Whew.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>
all the research about early reading and late reading. I'm sure the
teacher thought I was a horrible parent because I never showed concern
about her report card, can you believe that in KINDERGARDEN!, I knew
she was learning, especially when I quit *working* with her at home
about the 3rd week of school. I mean seven hours learning letters is
enough. I'm still apologizing for making her endure even one day of it.
Tracy
David Johnson
I guess I�m not a pure unschooler, then! Perhaps I have more to learn.
It seems to me that if I don�t insist that my daughter finish something
(as long as there�s just a bit more to do, not a lot), I�m not teaching
her to finish what she started, or that giving up when the going gets
rough is ok. Help me if I�m wrong, here. I usually feel the situation
out. For example, she needed to write a �thank you� note for birthday
presents the other day. This is part of how we�re learning to write.
She copies what I�ve written (a sentence) and will sometimes get
frustrated at the number of letters in the sentence. So, she can finish
part of the letter and start afresh the next day.
Your thoughts?
~Melissa :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: I've lost it....
~~ Relax and go with the needs and natural
interests of your child, although, on a personal note, don't be afraid
to push just a little when they get frustrated. ~~
Could you elaborate on that? Because when my child is frustrated, I
either stay close by to support if needed (as they figure out if they
are going to work through their own frustration with an activity or
stop) and/or help if asked. Pushing is the last thing I'd want to do
with a frustrated child.
And we're talking about reading ability, correct? Why would an
unschooling parent need to "push a little"? If one is to "relax and
go with the needs and natural interests of your child" then pushing is
contradictory to that philosophy.
Ren
learninginfreedom.-com
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date:
3/13/2007 4:51 PM
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date:
3/13/2007 4:51 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It seems to me that if I don�t insist that my daughter finish something
(as long as there�s just a bit more to do, not a lot), I�m not teaching
her to finish what she started, or that giving up when the going gets
rough is ok. Help me if I�m wrong, here. I usually feel the situation
out. For example, she needed to write a �thank you� note for birthday
presents the other day. This is part of how we�re learning to write.
She copies what I�ve written (a sentence) and will sometimes get
frustrated at the number of letters in the sentence. So, she can finish
part of the letter and start afresh the next day.
Your thoughts?
~Melissa :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: I've lost it....
~~ Relax and go with the needs and natural
interests of your child, although, on a personal note, don't be afraid
to push just a little when they get frustrated. ~~
Could you elaborate on that? Because when my child is frustrated, I
either stay close by to support if needed (as they figure out if they
are going to work through their own frustration with an activity or
stop) and/or help if asked. Pushing is the last thing I'd want to do
with a frustrated child.
And we're talking about reading ability, correct? Why would an
unschooling parent need to "push a little"? If one is to "relax and
go with the needs and natural interests of your child" then pushing is
contradictory to that philosophy.
Ren
learninginfreedom.-com
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date:
3/13/2007 4:51 PM
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date:
3/13/2007 4:51 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
David Johnson
I wanted to add, to my last post, that in all other aspects, we are
following her �needs and natural interests� (as a I wrote previously)
but that some things, such as �thank you� notes for presents are just
one of those things that needs to be done in our household.
~Melissa :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: I've lost it....
~~ Relax and go with the needs and natural
interests of your child, although, on a personal note, don't be afraid
to push just a little when they get frustrated. ~~
Could you elaborate on that? Because when my child is frustrated, I
either stay close by to support if needed (as they figure out if they
are going to work through their own frustration with an activity or
stop) and/or help if asked. Pushing is the last thing I'd want to do
with a frustrated child.
And we're talking about reading ability, correct? Why would an
unschooling parent need to "push a little"? If one is to "relax and
go with the needs and natural interests of your child" then pushing is
contradictory to that philosophy.
Ren
learninginfreedom.-com
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date:
3/13/2007 4:51 PM
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date:
3/13/2007 4:51 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
following her �needs and natural interests� (as a I wrote previously)
but that some things, such as �thank you� notes for presents are just
one of those things that needs to be done in our household.
~Melissa :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: I've lost it....
~~ Relax and go with the needs and natural
interests of your child, although, on a personal note, don't be afraid
to push just a little when they get frustrated. ~~
Could you elaborate on that? Because when my child is frustrated, I
either stay close by to support if needed (as they figure out if they
are going to work through their own frustration with an activity or
stop) and/or help if asked. Pushing is the last thing I'd want to do
with a frustrated child.
And we're talking about reading ability, correct? Why would an
unschooling parent need to "push a little"? If one is to "relax and
go with the needs and natural interests of your child" then pushing is
contradictory to that philosophy.
Ren
learninginfreedom.-com
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date:
3/13/2007 4:51 PM
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date:
3/13/2007 4:51 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: dj250@...
I guess I’m not a pure unschooler, then! Perhaps I have more to
learn.
It seems to me that if I don’t insist that my daughter finish something
(as long as there’s just a bit more to do, not a lot), I’m not teaching
her to finish what she started, or that giving up when the going gets
rough is ok. Help me if I’m wrong, here. I usually feel the situation
out. For example, she needed to write a “thank you” note for birthday
presents the other day. This is part of how we’re learning to write.
She copies what I’ve written (a sentence) and will sometimes get
frustrated at the number of letters in the sentence. So, she can finish
part of the letter and start afresh the next day.
Your thoughts?
-=-=-
Melissa, You'll be getting a LOT of thoughts on this one. Are you ready?
What you're teaching and what she's learning are two completely
different things!
We're big on thank you notes here. They are NOT mandatory! BUT since we
know how much *appreciated* they are, we write them to show gratitude.
The boys have seen me and Ben model this for years and years. Duncan,
at just 11, decided to write them for the birthday $$ he got from
grandparents this year. First time. He's ready.
Cameron (19), on the other hand, has been writing them for years. NICE
ones, too! BECAUSE HE WANTS TO!!!! It's nice. It's appreciated. But
it's NOT mandatory. His are stunning beautiful AND heartfelt.
You may think that MAKING someone write them may "teach" manners.
But what the child learns is 1) "I HATE flippin' thank you notes," and
2) "I wish she hadn't GIVEN me that stupid present."
MODEL the act of writing them. Don't make them out to be a chore. Not:
"I HAVE to write thank you notes today." Instead try: "I'm going to
write Aunt Jane a thank you for that lovely sweater. I'll use the same
color stationary as the yarn! And I'll enclose a photo of me wearing
the sweater." Keep plenty of beautiful papers, and design your own
cards and envelopes. Have a "stationary station"---just for notes and
letters.
And the whole "not finishing sometihng she starts" crap---what may
happen is that she quits STARTING anything!
Happens all the time. If you started knitting a sweater, but got
half-way through and quit, how would you feel if your husband MADE you
finish?
INternal motivation!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
From: dj250@...
I guess I’m not a pure unschooler, then! Perhaps I have more to
learn.
It seems to me that if I don’t insist that my daughter finish something
(as long as there’s just a bit more to do, not a lot), I’m not teaching
her to finish what she started, or that giving up when the going gets
rough is ok. Help me if I’m wrong, here. I usually feel the situation
out. For example, she needed to write a “thank you” note for birthday
presents the other day. This is part of how we’re learning to write.
She copies what I’ve written (a sentence) and will sometimes get
frustrated at the number of letters in the sentence. So, she can finish
part of the letter and start afresh the next day.
Your thoughts?
-=-=-
Melissa, You'll be getting a LOT of thoughts on this one. Are you ready?
What you're teaching and what she's learning are two completely
different things!
We're big on thank you notes here. They are NOT mandatory! BUT since we
know how much *appreciated* they are, we write them to show gratitude.
The boys have seen me and Ben model this for years and years. Duncan,
at just 11, decided to write them for the birthday $$ he got from
grandparents this year. First time. He's ready.
Cameron (19), on the other hand, has been writing them for years. NICE
ones, too! BECAUSE HE WANTS TO!!!! It's nice. It's appreciated. But
it's NOT mandatory. His are stunning beautiful AND heartfelt.
You may think that MAKING someone write them may "teach" manners.
But what the child learns is 1) "I HATE flippin' thank you notes," and
2) "I wish she hadn't GIVEN me that stupid present."
MODEL the act of writing them. Don't make them out to be a chore. Not:
"I HAVE to write thank you notes today." Instead try: "I'm going to
write Aunt Jane a thank you for that lovely sweater. I'll use the same
color stationary as the yarn! And I'll enclose a photo of me wearing
the sweater." Keep plenty of beautiful papers, and design your own
cards and envelopes. Have a "stationary station"---just for notes and
letters.
And the whole "not finishing sometihng she starts" crap---what may
happen is that she quits STARTING anything!
Happens all the time. If you started knitting a sweater, but got
half-way through and quit, how would you feel if your husband MADE you
finish?
INternal motivation!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "David Johnson" <dj250@...>
wrote:
But sometimes she wants help, too. Even doing things she's done a
hundred times - writing her name or I Love You. I see those moments as
really important. I want my kid to know that she *can* ask for help
whenever she feels like something is too much for her to handle, and I
want to support her in deciding how much is "too much". Pushing or
coaxing her to do things that I know she can do doesn't support that.
It undermines her learning process by telling her that *I* know better
than she does when she's ready or capable.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
wrote:
>My dd Loves to write notes, thank yous, cards, all sorts of things.
> I wanted to add, to my last post, that in all other aspects, we are
> following her ?needs and natural interests? (as a I wrote previously)
> but that some things, such as ?thank you? notes for presents are just
> one of those things that needs to be done in our household.
But sometimes she wants help, too. Even doing things she's done a
hundred times - writing her name or I Love You. I see those moments as
really important. I want my kid to know that she *can* ask for help
whenever she feels like something is too much for her to handle, and I
want to support her in deciding how much is "too much". Pushing or
coaxing her to do things that I know she can do doesn't support that.
It undermines her learning process by telling her that *I* know better
than she does when she's ready or capable.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: dj250@...
I wanted to add, to my last post, that in all other aspects, we are
following her “needs and natural interests” (as a I wrote previously)
but that some things, such as “thank you” notes for presents are just
one of those things that needs to be done in our household.
-=-==-
So...the question is WHY?
WHY is it a *need*? What will happen if that *need* is not met? Is it
then really a *need*?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
From: dj250@...
I wanted to add, to my last post, that in all other aspects, we are
following her “needs and natural interests” (as a I wrote previously)
but that some things, such as “thank you” notes for presents are just
one of those things that needs to be done in our household.
-=-==-
So...the question is WHY?
WHY is it a *need*? What will happen if that *need* is not met? Is it
then really a *need*?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "David Johnson"
<dj250@...> wrote:
raining too hard to see is okay. Taking a break digging post-holes
on a hot day might be a good idea. Asking a friend with help on a
project that's difficult is often a really great thing to do.
If you've never done it before, see if you can visit a professional
craftsperson's workshop - with spring coming, maybe you can find
an "art crawl" or something that lets you see artists and
craftspeople in their "natural habitats". Maybe go to a quilt shop!
Ask them if they have any "unfinished" projects lying around
gathering dust. Watch for the sheepish grin! I have boxes and boxes
of experimental projects that never quite got off the ground. Every
now and then I find a use for one! Some days I go into my workshop
with the knowledge that I am starting a project that will most
likely end up in one of those boxes. Its part of my learning
process. Its part of a great many people's learning process.
As long as you are making the decision as to which projects your dd
will finish, you are standing in the way of her discovering
something about herself. My house is full of partly finished kid-
projects, but its not uncommon for my 5yo to say to me "Not now,
Mer, I want to finish." That's something I respect with every bit of
patience and creativity I have, even if what she's "finishing" looks
to me like squishing playdoh into the backs of legos - finish? By
all means!
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
<dj250@...> wrote:
>> It seems to me that if I don?t insist that my daughter finishsomething
> (as long as there?s just a bit more to do, not a lot), I?m notteaching
> her to finish what she started, or that giving up when the goinggets
> rough is ok.Sometimes it *is* okay, though. Pulling the car over when its
raining too hard to see is okay. Taking a break digging post-holes
on a hot day might be a good idea. Asking a friend with help on a
project that's difficult is often a really great thing to do.
If you've never done it before, see if you can visit a professional
craftsperson's workshop - with spring coming, maybe you can find
an "art crawl" or something that lets you see artists and
craftspeople in their "natural habitats". Maybe go to a quilt shop!
Ask them if they have any "unfinished" projects lying around
gathering dust. Watch for the sheepish grin! I have boxes and boxes
of experimental projects that never quite got off the ground. Every
now and then I find a use for one! Some days I go into my workshop
with the knowledge that I am starting a project that will most
likely end up in one of those boxes. Its part of my learning
process. Its part of a great many people's learning process.
As long as you are making the decision as to which projects your dd
will finish, you are standing in the way of her discovering
something about herself. My house is full of partly finished kid-
projects, but its not uncommon for my 5yo to say to me "Not now,
Mer, I want to finish." That's something I respect with every bit of
patience and creativity I have, even if what she's "finishing" looks
to me like squishing playdoh into the backs of legos - finish? By
all means!
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
Schuyler
> I'm sure theIf you think a report card for kindergarten is scary the UK is looking to
> teacher thought I was a horrible parent because I never showed concern
> about her report card, can you believe that in KINDERGARDEN!
give report cards to infants:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/earlyyears/story/0,,2033356,00.html
Now that is both scary and depressing.
Schuyler
--
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: s.waynforth@...
If you think a report card for kindergarten is scary the UK is looking
to
give report cards to infants:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/earlyyears/story/0,,2033356,00.html
Now that is both scary and depressing.
-=-=-=-=-
Seems that the implementers of this new program missed a huge step in
the 40-60+ month timespan:
40-60+ months
·Understand what is right, what is wrong and have a conception of why
this is
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
From: s.waynforth@...
If you think a report card for kindergarten is scary the UK is looking
to
give report cards to infants:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/earlyyears/story/0,,2033356,00.html
Now that is both scary and depressing.
-=-=-=-=-
Seems that the implementers of this new program missed a huge step in
the 40-60+ month timespan:
40-60+ months
·Understand what is right, what is wrong and have a conception of why
this is
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
Schuyler
I had a conversation about mandatory "thank you"'s yesterday.
Two days ago Linnaea (6--7 next week!) got everything ready for bed for us.
She heated the hot rice bags in the microwave, she straightened the bedding,
she got water in the cup for her that I fill ever night, she found her
pajamas and brushed her teeth. I do that most nights, but I was levelling up
Simon's WoW character and was moving less actively toward bed. And as I
noticed everything she had done, of her own accord, generously, lovingly, I
realized two things. 1. If I required her to do these things, I would never
have known the love of her doing them for me. 2. She notices all of these
things that I do to make the bed we share more comfortable, easier to stay
in once we get into it. She showed me appreciation for what I do without
ever saying thank you and without having it be "one of those things that
needs to be done in our household."
I may suggest that a thank you is a nice thing to do when we go to someone
else's house, but only so they understand the social norms. If they feel shy
or uncomfortable, I am more than loud and effusive enough for their not
saying thank you to be that much of an issue. No one in our family sends us
thank yous, so I'm not actually all that concerned about sending ones out.
I'll call or e-mail our thanks, but by the time I've gone and gotten cards
and actually sat down to write them I may have forgotten who gave what to
whom. Or it is a few months later and it really seems an exercise in
futility.
Requiring a thank you from anyone really isn't evidence that they
appreciated or enjoyed the gift. It is more evidence that they can perform a
social nicety/trick.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
Two days ago Linnaea (6--7 next week!) got everything ready for bed for us.
She heated the hot rice bags in the microwave, she straightened the bedding,
she got water in the cup for her that I fill ever night, she found her
pajamas and brushed her teeth. I do that most nights, but I was levelling up
Simon's WoW character and was moving less actively toward bed. And as I
noticed everything she had done, of her own accord, generously, lovingly, I
realized two things. 1. If I required her to do these things, I would never
have known the love of her doing them for me. 2. She notices all of these
things that I do to make the bed we share more comfortable, easier to stay
in once we get into it. She showed me appreciation for what I do without
ever saying thank you and without having it be "one of those things that
needs to be done in our household."
I may suggest that a thank you is a nice thing to do when we go to someone
else's house, but only so they understand the social norms. If they feel shy
or uncomfortable, I am more than loud and effusive enough for their not
saying thank you to be that much of an issue. No one in our family sends us
thank yous, so I'm not actually all that concerned about sending ones out.
I'll call or e-mail our thanks, but by the time I've gone and gotten cards
and actually sat down to write them I may have forgotten who gave what to
whom. Or it is a few months later and it really seems an exercise in
futility.
Requiring a thank you from anyone really isn't evidence that they
appreciated or enjoyed the gift. It is more evidence that they can perform a
social nicety/trick.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Johnson" <dj250@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:33 PM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Re: I've lost it....
I wanted to add, to my last post, that in all other aspects, we are
following her "needs and natural interests" (as a I wrote previously)
but that some things, such as "thank you" notes for presents are just
one of those things that needs to be done in our household.
~Melissa :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: I've lost it....
~~ Relax and go with the needs and natural
interests of your child, although, on a personal note, don't be afraid
to push just a little when they get frustrated. ~~
Could you elaborate on that? Because when my child is frustrated, I
either stay close by to support if needed (as they figure out if they
are going to work through their own frustration with an activity or
stop) and/or help if asked. Pushing is the last thing I'd want to do
with a frustrated child.
And we're talking about reading ability, correct? Why would an
unschooling parent need to "push a little"? If one is to "relax and
go with the needs and natural interests of your child" then pushing is
contradictory to that philosophy.
Ren
learninginfreedom.-com
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date:
3/13/2007 4:51 PM
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date:
3/13/2007 4:51 PM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
Schuyler
> It seems to me that if I don't insist that my daughter finish somethingI stop a lot of projects before I've finished them. I had an epiphany
> (as long as there's just a bit more to do, not a lot), I'm not teaching
> her to finish what she started, or that giving up when the going gets
> rough is ok.
recently that if I'd never stopped anything that I was doing I'd still be in
diapers, I'd be a concert pianist, I'd still be able to walk on the top of
the monkey bars, I'd probably be a regional manager at McDonalds, I'd still
be a smoker, I'd still be nursing my mom, I'd still be crawling, I'd have a
full set of embroidered tea towels I started on when I was 5, I would be
with my boyfriend from pre-school, Oscar instead of married to David.
Sometimes you are just done. Sometimes you want a break. Sometimes you don't
want to knit a sweater. And sometimes you come back to those things again
and again and again. Giving up when the going gets rough is okay. I give up
when the going gets rough all the time. But sometimes I keep trying until I
get too frustrated and then I yell and I freak out and I stomp and rage. I
try not to do that very often though. I don't like that feeling.
> Help me if I'm wrong, here. I usually feel the situationWhy did she need to write a "thank you" note? What was going to happen if
> out. For example, she needed to write a "thank you" note for birthday
> presents the other day.
she didn't? If you did it instead? If you just sent the original you'd
written instead of making your daughter feel all squitchy and angry and
powerless inside doing something with too many letters in it? What would
have happened? Maybe you and she could have done something fun? Maybe you
could have sent some sweet little thing to friends saying how great it was
to see them thereby cementing your friendships even further? Where was her
need to write those thank yous?
> This is part of how we're learning to write.Are you having trouble with your writing? It seems pretty good from my point
of view. Maybe when you say "we" you mean "she"? It makes a difference if
you think of her as an individual separate from you. It makes a difference
if you see that what she needs and wants isn't always what you need and
want. You and she are individuals with different goals and aspirations.
Maybe what she needs to figure out writing is different from what you need
to keep your writing skills honed. Simon, my 9 year old son, has never
written at my forcing. The other day he wrote something about what house he
was in at Hogwarts and what his pets were and what kind of wand he has and
his writing was so much clearer than it had been a year ago, 2 years ago.
The drawing and tracing and writing that he does, without my standing over
him and making him do school work, has made as much of a difference as
tracing letters or dotted line workbooks did for mine in school. And it did
so without him feeling miserable or like a failure or like he couldn't learn
without being put under some sort of duresse. As a side note Simon isn't
quite reading yet. The puzzle pieces are clearly lining up, but he isn't
quite ready to put it all together. So what he wrote was information he was
copying off of the internet or that I was helping him to spell. He wanted it
to be in his own writing though. And he wanted to finish that project.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
Schuyler
Do you think they were asking 40-60+ month children why this set off
standards for children was either right or wrong? Oh, that would be
wonderful wouldn't it? But they'd turn it into some "Children say the
Darnedest things" sort of dealie where they were mocking kids for their
responses...hmmm, mayhaps I feel a bit bitter....
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
standards for children was either right or wrong? Oh, that would be
wonderful wouldn't it? But they'd turn it into some "Children say the
Darnedest things" sort of dealie where they were mocking kids for their
responses...hmmm, mayhaps I feel a bit bitter....
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <kbcdlovejo@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: I've lost it....
-----Original Message-----
From: s.waynforth@...
If you think a report card for kindergarten is scary the UK is looking
to
give report cards to infants:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/earlyyears/story/0,,2033356,00.html
Now that is both scary and depressing.
-=-=-=-=-
Seems that the implementers of this new program missed a huge step in
the 40-60+ month timespan:
40-60+ months
·Understand what is right, what is wrong and have a conception of why
this is
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
Yahoo! Groups Links
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 14, 2007, at 10:30 AM, David Johnson wrote:
order to learn how or that she should do thank you notes, that she
can't learn that by living life.
My daughter (15) is way better at thank yous than I am. I've never
made her write thank yous, though, of course, she has learned about
them by living life. She writes thank yous because she *wants* to,
because she knows how good it feels when someone thanks her (and
we've remarked how thoughtful it is that someone has put in the
effort to make that gesture of thanks), and because she wants to put
the effort into thanking someone
meaningful reasons. They *choose* to write -- IMs, emails, posts on
message boards are the most common, but also poetry and stories for
their own personal satisfaction -- because they want to communicate
with someone. And they get better at it as a side effect because they
have an internal drive to communicate their thoughts better and
naturally pick up better ways to get their points across.
that way, she can do the same by being with someone else writing a
thank you, or if you write it for her and ask for her input, and by
receiving thank yous.
By being made to do them, what she's learning also (besides wording)
is to associate an unpleasant feeling with thank yous (frustration,
irritation, pressure), and that when two people don't agree about
something that if you're bigger you can make the other person do what
you want.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It seems to me that if I don�t insist that my daughter finishIt's not unschooling if you believe you must make her do something in
> something
> (as long as there�s just a bit more to do, not a lot), I�m not
> teaching
> her to finish what she started, or that giving up when the going gets
> rough is ok.
order to learn how or that she should do thank you notes, that she
can't learn that by living life.
My daughter (15) is way better at thank yous than I am. I've never
made her write thank yous, though, of course, she has learned about
them by living life. She writes thank yous because she *wants* to,
because she knows how good it feels when someone thanks her (and
we've remarked how thoughtful it is that someone has put in the
effort to make that gesture of thanks), and because she wants to put
the effort into thanking someone
> This is part of how we�re learning to write.Unschoolers learn to write by needing to write for personally
meaningful reasons. They *choose* to write -- IMs, emails, posts on
message boards are the most common, but also poetry and stories for
their own personal satisfaction -- because they want to communicate
with someone. And they get better at it as a side effect because they
have an internal drive to communicate their thoughts better and
naturally pick up better ways to get their points across.
> She copies what I�ve written (a sentence) and will sometimes getWhile she's going to absorb some of the language of thanks you notes
> frustrated at the number of letters in the sentence. So, she can
> finish
> part of the letter and start afresh the next day.
that way, she can do the same by being with someone else writing a
thank you, or if you write it for her and ask for her input, and by
receiving thank yous.
By being made to do them, what she's learning also (besides wording)
is to associate an unpleasant feeling with thank yous (frustration,
irritation, pressure), and that when two people don't agree about
something that if you're bigger you can make the other person do what
you want.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 14, 2007, at 10:33 AM, David Johnson wrote:
important it is by doing it yourself rather than making someone else
conform to your values.
She's bound to have more pleasant associations with thank yous if you
write it and ask if she'd like to give some input: how she felt about
the present, what she did with it, etc.
What would you rather receive: a thank you coerced out of someone who
can't wait until they can get away from writing it and for whom some
of the bad thoughts of being made to write are transferring to the
present and the giver, or someone who was eager to share a few words
as mom wrote, or actually sat down and wrote a note all on her own?
We can make kids go through the motions of politeness but what does
that mean? Isn't the real goal sincere feelings and a desire to
express them?
We need to trust that our kids will have feelings of thankfulness
they want to express when they're old enough to do so. In the
meantime we can model being polite for them and talk about how good
it feels when someone has gone out of their way to do something nice
for us.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> but that some things, such as �thank you� notes for presents are justIf it's truly something important to you then you should model how
> one of those things that needs to be done in our household.
important it is by doing it yourself rather than making someone else
conform to your values.
She's bound to have more pleasant associations with thank yous if you
write it and ask if she'd like to give some input: how she felt about
the present, what she did with it, etc.
What would you rather receive: a thank you coerced out of someone who
can't wait until they can get away from writing it and for whom some
of the bad thoughts of being made to write are transferring to the
present and the giver, or someone who was eager to share a few words
as mom wrote, or actually sat down and wrote a note all on her own?
We can make kids go through the motions of politeness but what does
that mean? Isn't the real goal sincere feelings and a desire to
express them?
We need to trust that our kids will have feelings of thankfulness
they want to express when they're old enough to do so. In the
meantime we can model being polite for them and talk about how good
it feels when someone has gone out of their way to do something nice
for us.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 14, 2007, at 10:30 AM, David Johnson wrote:
teeth and push through.
What's way more important to learn is how to assess when a project is
draining more than it's giving back.
If someone has learned what they wanted to learn from getting part
way through project -- and perhaps what they've learned is they
don't like doing that type of project! -- it's a great skill to learn
how to let go of it.
We don't do our kids any favor when we teach them that the goal is to
finish something. We do help them learn a valuable skill if we help
them look at the big picture and see whether a project is taking more
from them than it can give back.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It seems to me that if I don�t insist that my daughter finishAnyone can learn to finish what they started. You just grit your
> something
> (as long as there�s just a bit more to do, not a lot), I�m not
> teaching
> her to finish what she started
teeth and push through.
What's way more important to learn is how to assess when a project is
draining more than it's giving back.
If someone has learned what they wanted to learn from getting part
way through project -- and perhaps what they've learned is they
don't like doing that type of project! -- it's a great skill to learn
how to let go of it.
We don't do our kids any favor when we teach them that the goal is to
finish something. We do help them learn a valuable skill if we help
them look at the big picture and see whether a project is taking more
from them than it can give back.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 14, 2007, at 4:23 PM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
thank you note.
Don't do it with the goal of getting her to write thank you notes.
Do it because you think it's important. Do it because you sincerely
want to thank her. As a side effect she'll experience how good it
feels to have someone acknowledge something they've done and she'll
be exposed to the language of thank you notes.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> She's bound to have more pleasant associations with thank yous if youOr, here's an idea: when she does something thoughtful, write *her* a
> write it and ask if she'd like to give some input: how she felt about
> the present, what she did with it, etc.
thank you note.
Don't do it with the goal of getting her to write thank you notes.
Do it because you think it's important. Do it because you sincerely
want to thank her. As a side effect she'll experience how good it
feels to have someone acknowledge something they've done and she'll
be exposed to the language of thank you notes.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vickisue Gray
I second Joyce's response.
Before I came across unschooling, I had searched the gifted groups
for advice. I had asked a similiar question.
They very quickly said almost verbatim what Joyce said.
(Humm differant concepts on education styles, but same
thoughts on how kids learn, interesting.)
They all told me that thier kids started many differant projects
some they finish, most they don't. They explore it as long as
it holds their thoughts then they move on.
Gee, they even pointed out that this is how most things are learned
in the grown up world. A new idea is thought of. Sometimes it works.
Sometimes you start over again. Sometimes it's dropped as it wasn't
a good idea. Sometimes, someone else picks up your idea, change
it a bit, and they make it work.
Interesting...
Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
Before I came across unschooling, I had searched the gifted groups
for advice. I had asked a similiar question.
They very quickly said almost verbatim what Joyce said.
(Humm differant concepts on education styles, but same
thoughts on how kids learn, interesting.)
They all told me that thier kids started many differant projects
some they finish, most they don't. They explore it as long as
it holds their thoughts then they move on.
Gee, they even pointed out that this is how most things are learned
in the grown up world. A new idea is thought of. Sometimes it works.
Sometimes you start over again. Sometimes it's dropped as it wasn't
a good idea. Sometimes, someone else picks up your idea, change
it a bit, and they make it work.
Interesting...
Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
On Mar 14, 2007, at 10:30 AM, David Johnson wrote:
> It seems to me that if I dont insist that my daughter finish
> something
> (as long as theres just a bit more to do, not a lot), Im not
> teaching
> her to finish what she started
Anyone can learn to finish what they started. You just grit your
teeth and push through.
What's way more important to learn is how to assess when a project is
draining more than it's giving back.
If someone has learned what they wanted to learn from getting part
way through project -- and perhaps what they've learned is they
don't like doing that type of project! -- it's a great skill to learn
how to let go of it.
We don't do our kids any favor when we teach them that the goal is to
finish something. We do help them learn a valuable skill if we help
them look at the big picture and see whether a project is taking more
from them than it can give back.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
---------------------------------
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vickisue Gray
Joyce wrote:
What would you rather receive: a thank you coerced out of someone who
can't wait until they can get away from writing it and for whom some
of the bad thoughts of being made to write are transferring to the
present and the giver, or someone who was eager to share a few words
as mom wrote, or actually sat down and wrote a note all on her own?
We can make kids go through the motions of politeness but what does
that mean? Isn't the real goal sincere feelings and a desire to
express them?
Lol....you sound like my mother. This is how we were raised. This is how
I've raised my kids. My cousins were raised with the forced and false politeness
which may have it's place somewhere, but I'll take sincere any day over falseness.
---------------------------------
It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What would you rather receive: a thank you coerced out of someone who
can't wait until they can get away from writing it and for whom some
of the bad thoughts of being made to write are transferring to the
present and the giver, or someone who was eager to share a few words
as mom wrote, or actually sat down and wrote a note all on her own?
We can make kids go through the motions of politeness but what does
that mean? Isn't the real goal sincere feelings and a desire to
express them?
Lol....you sound like my mother. This is how we were raised. This is how
I've raised my kids. My cousins were raised with the forced and false politeness
which may have it's place somewhere, but I'll take sincere any day over falseness.
---------------------------------
It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vickisue Gray
I was surprised at how well my son wrote when he first wrote on his blog.
He understood sentence structure, punctuation, and word use rather well.
He learned it by speaking and reading. There are times that he will ask
about a part of speech or a symbol used and I will explain it to him.
He picked up typing rather fast, just by online communication.
Vicki
---------------------------------
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He understood sentence structure, punctuation, and word use rather well.
He learned it by speaking and reading. There are times that he will ask
about a part of speech or a symbol used and I will explain it to him.
He picked up typing rather fast, just by online communication.
Vicki
---------------------------------
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]