bedtime and waking

Katharine Wise

24 Feb 2007, at 8:42am

Sorry this is long, but I figured detail would help. In the past week I've tried letting my 4yo go to sleep and wake up when he wants which has been okay -- it's had a mixture of frustrations and benefits -- but tomorrow I have definitely have a problem and overall it's starting to cause sleep issues for dh and myself.

To flesh out the scene: 10yo ds likes the lights out at 9:20pm. Wakes about 6:30-7am, and enjoys playing alone for about an hour until he wants breakfast (and Daddy to make it) at 8am. 7yo ds comes out of the bedroom and reads awhile longer after oldest turns out the lights. I take him to bed and sing to him about 10pm. He wakes to have breakfast with dh too. (The two older share a room.)

4yo had been a struggle at both ends. I would usually try to get him to bed before 7yo, but especially recently it had been after. Sometimes he'd really object and stay up until 11pm or so for a few days. Then one night he'd crash at 7 or 8pm. I would always wake him (not very easily) about 8am. I get up and shower about 7:30 while dh is still home and 4yo's asleep so no worry about sibling battles with the 7yo. (4yo co-sleeps with us and nurses to sleep, though it usually doesn't take long.)

So the last week I've been letting him go to sleep and wake up completely on his own. First day he slept until 11:30am. Then 9:30am. Has evened out at about 10:30am. For a few days he was tired and wanting to go to bed around 11pm. One night 11:30. But now we're hitting a general conflict -- dh and I are exhausted! Last night we insisted on going to bed at 11pm. Ds wanted to continue playing -- with me. I empathized, explained that if I didn't go to bed I would be cross and cranky and not much fun to play with the next day. Offered that he could play while I went to bed, but he didn't want that. So now I feel like I'm still struggling with him over going to bed, except it's at 11:30 instead of 9:30 and I'm not sure what the benefit of that is. (And DH is looking at me and saying, "This wasn't *my* crazy idea!") The other more immediate problem is that tomorrow we need to leave for church at 9:30.

Suggestions?

Thanks,
Katharine

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plaidpanties666

24 Feb 2007, at 5:44pm

--- In [email protected], Katharine Wise
<katharinewise@...> wrote:

>The other more immediate problem is that tomorrow we need to leave
>for church at 9:30.

Its not a "solution" but a little mental prep-work for tomorrow is
probably in order. There have been times when I've been able to look
ahead and know there is a likelihood of a difficult day or stressful
transition and use that knowledge to... brace myself seems kind of
harsh, but ready myself mentally for the possible challenge. Store
up a little extra calm and patience, give myself a little pep-talk,
and remember to breathe.

> So the last week I've been letting him go to sleep and wake up
>completely on his own. <snip> So now I feel like I'm still
>struggling with him over going to bed, except it's at 11:30 instead
>of 9:30 and I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

A week isn't very long in terms of shifting sleep cycles. My
stepson's current sleep cycle took about six weeks to establish. My
5yo's sleep cycle periodically shifts by a few hours all of a sudden
and it takes me a week just to figure out that's what's going on!
There's going to be some transitional time, and transitions aren't
always the most comfortable things.

What kinds of expectations have you had wrt this process? You say
you're not sure what the benefit is - did you have a specific hope
in mind? If the idea is to help your guy have more autonomy wrt
getting his sleep needs met, did you have an expectation as to how
that would look?

It kind of sounds as though you were hoping he'd become more
independant in terms of going to sleep, and that may not be possible
for him at this time. He may still need mom (or dad) to help him
figure out how tired feels and what to do about it. Is that
something y'all have talked about in general, or has it always
been "bedtime"? What's he like right before going to sleep? Does he
settle down gradually or just suddenly collapse? Also, how is he
generally in terms of getting what he needs - does he like to play
by himself and get his own snacks etc in general? or does he prefer
help overall? Is he wanting some "special time" with mom or dad?
Those are things to take into account as you look at this
transition.

Tonight - can you dress him in his church-clothes before bed so you
just have to bundle him in the car in the morning? It may be that
he'll do you a favor and go to bed early, but I'd plan for that
*not* happening. Pack a breakfast he can eat at church or in the car
and talk to him (and dad and the other kids) about what tomorrow
will be like. Ask if they have some ideas, too.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Katharine Wise

25 Feb 2007, at 10:52pm

Thanks for your reply, Meredith. You definitely raised some interesting questions!

I had written:

> So the last week I've been letting him go to sleep and wake up

>completely on his own. <snip> So now I feel like I'm still

>struggling with him over going to bed, except it's at 11:30 instead

>of 9:30 and I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

You responded: "What kinds of expectations have you had wrt this process? You say

you're not sure what the benefit is - did you have a specific hope

in mind? If the idea is to help your guy have more autonomy wrt

getting his sleep needs met, did you have an expectation as to how

that would look? "

In the past, sometimes he would tell me he was tired and wanted to go to bed, but more often I was saying, "Come on, it's time for bed." Sometimes he would come with me and sometimes he would insist on staying up and playing. I think what I found most wearing was the unpredictability of it. And I was always trying to wake him up at about the same time in the hopes that he wouldn't stay up late, but sometimes it was really hard to wake him. So I guess I was hoping that if I just let him say when he was ready, he would settle on some more predictable pattern. Plus, reading about letting children "unschool" sleeping, I was curious to see what would happen. I've always tried to be flexible and responsive, but bedtimes have definitely been parent-led. When I said I wasn't sure what the benefit was, I meant that before I'd been urging him to go to bed at 9:30 and now I was still doing the urging -- except it was two hours later. (There was a clear benefit in the morning
though when I had time alone with the older two -- but that was lessened as the week went by because I was increasingly tired.)

"It kind of sounds as though you were hoping he'd become more

independant in terms of going to sleep, and that may not be possible

for him at this time. "

I did not mean that I wanted to go to sleep independently. I'm no more ready than he is to give up nursing my third (last?) baby to sleep:-) I realize my post may have given that impression though, and I'm not sure if that's what you meant here or not.

"He may still need mom (or dad) to help him figure out how tired feels and what to do about it. Is that something y'all have talked about in general, or has it always

been "bedtime"? "

Probably a mixture of "it's time to go to bed" and "aren't you feeling tired?" and "you were up really late last night so you must be tired" but I guess not talking about how tired feels. He does sometimes say he's tired. Other times he's an energizer bunny -- "let's play this, let's play that..." and I don't see any signs of tired either except in me:-)

"What's he like right before going to sleep? Does he settle down gradually or just suddenly collapse? Also, how is he generally in terms of getting what he needs - does he like to play by himself and get his own snacks etc in general? or does he prefer help overall? Is he wanting some "special time" with mom or dad? "

Usually suddenly collapses. Play, play, play then "I'm tired, Mommy. Let's go to bed. *Now*." Or, if I initiate, he may or may not cooperate. In either case, he usually nurses to sleep pretty quickly and solidly. (None of that sneaking away inch by inch required in order for me to get back up:-) Definitely not particularly independent. Wants a playmate, preferably me. All of my boys like for us to do most things for them. I'm sure he loved the time alone with us while his brothers were asleep, even though he gets a *lot* of my attention during the day while his brothers play together -- it's never enough:-)

Katharine

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Lisa Heyman

27 Feb 2007, at 2:08pm

Katherine,
I want to tell you how bedtime and waking works in our house. The kids go
to bed when they are tired. They wake up when they are ready. If there is
something someone needs to get up early for i've come to learn it better be
something they really want to be doing or getting up early is a struggle.
So if there is something that one person in the house wants to get up early
for and it requires the rest of us to do so as well we've come to discover
this can work with planning. We do what it takes to find an real incentive
that will excite the others to get up. If that is not available then i make
plans so that they can remain in bed and no one else is dependant on them to
do what they want.

Lisa Heyman

>From: Katharine Wise <katharinewise@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: Unschooling Basics <[email protected]>
>Subject: [unschoolingbasics] bedtime and waking
>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 05:42:09 -0800 (PST)
>
>Sorry this is long, but I figured detail would help. In the past week I've
>tried letting my 4yo go to sleep and wake up when he wants which has been
>okay -- it's had a mixture of frustrations and benefits -- but tomorrow I
>have definitely have a problem and overall it's starting to cause sleep
>issues for dh and myself.
>
>To flesh out the scene: 10yo ds likes the lights out at 9:20pm. Wakes
>about 6:30-7am, and enjoys playing alone for about an hour until he wants
>breakfast (and Daddy to make it) at 8am. 7yo ds comes out of the bedroom
>and reads awhile longer after oldest turns out the lights. I take him to
>bed and sing to him about 10pm. He wakes to have breakfast with dh too.
>(The two older share a room.)
>
>4yo had been a struggle at both ends. I would usually try to get him to
>bed before 7yo, but especially recently it had been after. Sometimes he'd
>really object and stay up until 11pm or so for a few days. Then one night
>he'd crash at 7 or 8pm. I would always wake him (not very easily) about
>8am. I get up and shower about 7:30 while dh is still home and 4yo's
>asleep so no worry about sibling battles with the 7yo. (4yo co-sleeps with
>us and nurses to sleep, though it usually doesn't take long.)
>
>So the last week I've been letting him go to sleep and wake up completely
>on his own. First day he slept until 11:30am. Then 9:30am. Has evened
>out at about 10:30am. For a few days he was tired and wanting to go to bed
>around 11pm. One night 11:30. But now we're hitting a general conflict --
>dh and I are exhausted! Last night we insisted on going to bed at 11pm.
>Ds wanted to continue playing -- with me. I empathized, explained that if
>I didn't go to bed I would be cross and cranky and not much fun to play
>with the next day. Offered that he could play while I went to bed, but he
>didn't want that. So now I feel like I'm still struggling with him over
>going to bed, except it's at 11:30 instead of 9:30 and I'm not sure what
>the benefit of that is. (And DH is looking at me and saying, "This wasn't
>*my* crazy idea!") The other more immediate problem is that tomorrow we
>need to leave for church at 9:30.
>
>Suggestions?
>
>Thanks,
>Katharine
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
>http://new.mail.yahoo.com

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Katharine Wise

27 Feb 2007, at 2:36pm

----- Original Message ----
From: Lisa Heyman <Lmanathome@...>

I want to tell you how bedtime and waking works in our house. The kids go

to bed when they are tired. They wake up when they are ready.

Me: What if they aren't tired/ready for bed but you are and they either (a) want you to continue playing with them or (b) they want you to put them to bed (whether that be lying with them, reading a story, or nursing).

Don't know how old your children are now, but when they were little (3-7?) did you talk about what tired means and point out signs that they were tired, or did you just wait until they fell asleep or announced they wanted to go to bed?

Thanks,
Katharine

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plaidpanties666

27 Feb 2007, at 7:31pm

--- In [email protected], Katharine Wise
<katharinewise@...> wrote:

> Don't know how old your children are now, but when they were
>little (3-7?) did you talk about what tired means and point out
>signs that they were tired, or did you just wait until they fell
>asleep or announced they wanted to go to bed?
>

Mo never really appreciated being told *she* was tired ;) so instead
I made an effort to talk about *me* being tired: I'm tired and my
body feels like its getting heavier and heavier. I'm tired so I'm
getting cranky. I don't think so well when I'm tired.... essentially
just trying to verbalize what "tired" is like from the inside, and
also give her some clues to be able to understand what's going on
with mom, and eventually herself.

> What if they aren't tired/ready for bed but you are and they
>either (a) want you to continue playing with them or (b) they want
>you to put them to bed (whether that be lying with them, reading a
>story, or nursing).

The second is easier - usually I can stretch what little energy I
have left to help Mo settle down if she needs it. The first isn't so
much an issue, here, but I wonder if there's a way for you to hang
out without actually playing? Doze on the couch or in a chair? Let
the kid play next to the bed until he's ready? Some way to meet his
need for connection with your need for some rest.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Katharine Wise

27 Feb 2007, at 9:02pm

Oops, I see I wasn't clear about what I meant here with (b). I meant what if you're ready to go to bed but your child is not. However, later when they are ready for bed, they'll want you to tuck them in or whatever you do for them. So if you go to bed and leave them playing, they'll want you to get up and put them to bed later. Not actually an issue here since ds wants me to stay up and play, but I've gathered from Sandra Dodd's website and others that some have even quite young children who stay up by themselves. Maybe they're old enough to verbalize and agree to go to bed on their own, I don't know. When mine were very little and would sometimes wake up in the middle of the night, they would just crawl around talking in the bed while I ignored them and pretended to sleep (happened more with the oldest than the other two).

Katharine

> What if they aren't tired/ready for bed but you are and they

>either (a) want you to continue playing with them or (b) they want

>you to put them to bed (whether that be lying with them, reading a

>story, or nursing).

The second is easier - usually I can stretch what little energy I

have left to help Mo settle down if she needs it.



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Lisa Heyman

27 Feb 2007, at 11:35pm

>From: Katharine Wise <katharinewise@...>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Lisa Heyman <Lmanathome@...>
>
>
>I want to tell you how bedtime and waking works in our house. The kids go
>
>to bed when they are tired. They wake up when they are ready.
>
>Me: What if they aren't tired/ready for bed but you are and they either
>(a) want you to continue playing with them or (b) they want you to put them
>to bed (whether that be lying with them, reading a story, or nursing).

*******************
Different things have happened over the years. Starting with infancy where
child was carried in sling and slept as needed. When a toddler child might
playi on the bed while i slept with the lights low or my sleeping on living
room couch while child continues to watch tv. Naps were important to me
(still are...but now kids don't nap when i do during the day). As they got
older ear phones for music, audio book, or dvd in bedroom while i slept
wiith lights off.

When my night owl was about 6 she actually chose to stay up by herself and
turn off the lights when she was ready to come to bed. That happened once
or twice until she decided she didn't like being the only one up by herself
so there after has always been fine with coming to bed with me if i was
exhausted earlier than she or whenever the last other person went to bed.
She likes when i read to her at night so i will let her know that if that is
going to happen it needs to be now because in half hour or more i won't be
able to keep my eyes open.

If my child is really adamant about staying up later than i intended (like
last night) i do stay up later to help her with what she needs. I have
found that when i am genuinely willing to be there and available for her
then she is trully understanding when i look at her and say i just have to
go to sleep. It's never an arbitrary limit set for she or for myself.

It happens that sometimes i go to sleep early in the evening before my dh
and then when he comes to bed later my younger dd will then come and snuggle
with me for her bedtime comfort. Or occasionally i've gotten back up to be
with her.

I have been accustomed to nursing for 13 years now so being snuggled up to
in the middle of the night for some nighttime milk is not unusual whether we
have both fallen to sleep at the same time or not.

My first born is not a night owl. She used to drag me up to bed before i
was ready to end my day or while i might be in the middle of something. I'd
do what she needed and then either go back to my stuff or sleep as well.
She's an early riser and at an early age made herself something to eat in
the a.m. if i was still sleeping. Both kids do this now if i was up late.
I was lucky in that my first born was a napper and so i could catch up on
sleep throughout the day. It was special time napping together. I miss it.

My second dd is not a napper...is an energizer bunny. It has challenged me
at times as i do like my sleep.
****************

>
>Don't know how old your children are now, but when they were little (3-7?)
>did you talk about what tired means and point out signs that they were
>tired, or did you just wait until they fell asleep or announced they wanted
>to go to bed?
>

*****************
My girls are currently 8.5 & 13.5. I haven't had the experience of having
to point out signs when my kids were tired (or what they felt about
anything). They learned to label their own feelings as their vocabulary
grew. They are very clear and expressive about their feelings. They are as
easily to say to me they love me as they are about their frustrations and
anger or simply they are hungry or tired.

Lisa Heyman

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Melissa

27 Feb 2007, at 11:44pm

I think unschooling really has helped our family with this. Our older children would not have
been able to recognize tired because they were put into bed so regularly, regardless of how
tired they were. However, our younger kids, because they've been able to reach tired, have us
help them get ready for bed and wind down, have learned the natural steps to going to sleep.

Our three year old can and will get into bed by himself if we're all engrossed in something
and he's just ready to go. I still remember how shocked I was last summer, he had just turned
three, and we were all swimming in the pool in the dark. We came back in, where he had
been playing video games with sister, and he had gotten his own pj's on and climbed into
bed. It doesn't mean that we always do that, usually we're really involved in his bedtime
routine, but if I was exhausted, i know that I could leave him in front of the TV and he'd get
in bed when he was ready. Or get his blankie and pillow and just sleep right there!

Fortunately all of our little ones are usually in bed asleep LONG before we ever are tired, and
even better is the fact that the 12 yo and 8 yo are little night owls who happen to love
nurturing their brothers.

--- In [email protected], Katharine Wise <katharinewise@...> wrote:
>
> Oops, I see I wasn't clear about what I meant here with (b). I meant what if you're ready to
go to bed but your child is not.

plaidpanties666

28 Feb 2007, at 9:43am

--- In [email protected], Katharine Wise
<katharinewise@...> wrote:

>
> Oops, I see I wasn't clear about what I meant here with (b). I
>meant what if you're ready to go to bed but your child is not.
>However, later when they are ready for bed, they'll want you to
>tuck them in or whatever you do for them.

I'm going to leave it to others to offer speciffic suggestions,
since that's never really been an issue in my family. I do want to
comment, though, that you seem to be "stuck" on the idea of "going
to bed". It might be helpful to look at the situation from the
perspective of needs - going to bed isn't a need, but getting enough
rest *is*. Looking from that angle may help open up a bit more
problem solving for your family.

>I've gathered from Sandra Dodd's website and others that some have
>even quite young children who stay up by themselves.

Yes, Morgan has always been fine playing by herself after we're
asleep, so our focus has been on how to keep her safe and make sure
her needs are getting met even if we aren't staying up with her.
When she was 3, she rarely stayed up more than an hour after we
crashed, so it wasn't too difficult, and as she's gotten older her
ability to do for herself has also grown. Sometimes she *does* wake
me after I've been asleep a couple hours to talk or snuggle (she
doesn't like to be read to these days) and I remind myself very
firmly that she'll only be little for a little while. I tend to be
pretty cranky when I'm awakened, so that particular reminder is
important for me!

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)