Shane Silverman

*****The consequence would be that it hurts to be hit or that your brother
won't play with you because he's afraid of being hit again.
**********

This is said each and every time. I'm sure they understand it hurts, because they hit each other. When someone gets hit they run off crying and tell us. They they go back and play again. The fear does not seem to be there.


Shane
Mom to Theodore (7), Issac (5), and Harrison (3)

Out of debt, out of danger.
~Proverb, (Italian)~

http://www.daveramsey.com - Get REAL debt help: Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover Plan (Link to http://www.daveramsey.com)

-Tell your story. Listen to other tell their story-

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Katharine Wise

We have definitely been struggling with hitting in our family too, mostly on the part of my 7yo, and I understand this concern. (I have 3 boys also, 10, 7, and 4.) What I've found most helpful is letting them know that I am there to help them communicate more effectively. To say, "You seem really frustrated because you want to play with that toy (or whatever I sense the issue is). Let's see if we can solve this problem." And then to talk through the problem with them. Oh, and also to *be there* -- present, in the midst of whatever's going on so that I can step in between (if possible, sometimes he's too fast and I don't see it coming) before the hitting happens.

The aggression has gotten better. Of course, I want it to stop once and for all, but I can see it's improving. But punishment doesn't really do that either. They really need us to teach them, model for them, alternatives to hitting. It takes a long time, and a lot of help, for some children to learn how to "use your words".

Katharine














*****The consequence would be that it hurts to be hit or that your brother

won't play with you because he's afraid of being hit again.

**********



This is said each and every time. I'm sure they understand it hurts, because they hit each other. When someone gets hit they run off crying and tell us. They they go back and play again. The fear does not seem to be there.



Shane

Mom to Theodore (7), Issac (5), and Harrison (3)












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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Erica Iwamura

"The fear does not seem to be there."

Fear of what? Each other? Hitting? Losing the TV? I'm confused... what do
you want them to be fearful of?

Taking the tv away won't instill fear either . It will probably just make
them resent the one who hit and got the tv taken away even more.

Erica

On 2/22/07, Shane Silverman <danburydoula@...> wrote:
>
> *****The consequence would be that it hurts to be hit or that your
> brother
> won't play with you because he's afraid of being hit again.
> **********
>
> This is said each and every time. I'm sure they understand it hurts,
> because they hit each other. When someone gets hit they run off crying and
> tell us. They they go back and play again. The fear does not seem to be
> there.
>
> Shane
> Mom to Theodore (7), Issac (5), and Harrison (3)
>
> Out of debt, out of danger.
> ~Proverb, (Italian)~
>
> http://www.daveramsey.com - Get REAL debt help: Dave Ramsey's Total Money
> Makeover Plan (Link to http://www.daveramsey.com)
>
> -Tell your story. Listen to other tell their story-
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
"Play is the highest form of research." - Albert Einstein


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

> It takes a long time, and a lot of help, for some children to learn
> how to "use your words".

Sandra Dodd gave her kids a 3 step process:

1) Use your words.

2) If that doesn't work, get an adult.

3) If that doesn't work, then you can hit.

Obviously it never got to the 3rd step ;-) I think the good thing
about it is that they won't feel they've failed if they can't figure
out how to use words. Getting an adult is already built into the
problem solving process. And it's *very* easy for them to see where
the process broke down if they've hit and they've skipped one of the
steps ;-)

There's some about sibling fighting, with links to more (which also
link to more) at:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/
siblingsfighting.html

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Erica Iwamura

I love that 3 step process!! LOL

Erica

On 2/24/07, Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> > It takes a long time, and a lot of help, for some children to learn
> > how to "use your words".
>
> Sandra Dodd gave her kids a 3 step process:
>
> 1) Use your words.
>
> 2) If that doesn't work, get an adult.
>
> 3) If that doesn't work, then you can hit.
>
> Obviously it never got to the 3rd step ;-) I think the good thing
> about it is that they won't feel they've failed if they can't figure
> out how to use words. Getting an adult is already built into the
> problem solving process. And it's *very* easy for them to see where
> the process broke down if they've hit and they've skipped one of the
> steps ;-)
>
> There's some about sibling fighting, with links to more (which also
> link to more) at:
>
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/
> siblingsfighting.html
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
"Play is the highest form of research." - Albert Einstein


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 22, 2007, at 10:34 PM, Shane Silverman wrote:

> This is said each and every time. I'm sure they understand it
> hurts, because they hit each other. When someone gets hit they run
> off crying and tell us. They they go back and play again. The
> fear does not seem to be there.

I think where the process is breaking down is that you're expecting
understanding to be enough.

Have you ever known that you shouldn't do something: another cookie,
staying up another hour, reading just a few more emails .... and yet
you did it anyway? How long have you been on the planet, practicing
those skills? And yet you're expecting perfect control of emotions
and reactions from young beings who have only been here a few short
years?

Their actions are showing you that they still need your help solving
problems. You need to be there for them, not expecting them to
control their emotions, not expecting them to work it out themselves.

By giving them information, you're expecting to be able to hand over
responsibility of peaceful relationships to them. And they're failing
at it. And it's frustrating.

Expectations are probably the ruin of more relationships than money!

It's not a rule, but it should be a red flag that when we have
expectations of someone else's behavior and they fail, we should
examine our own behavior and why we've set up those expectations.
It's very likely that it's the expectations that are at the root of
the unpleasant atmosphere than what someone did or didn't do.

Joyce

Shane Silverman

QUOTE:
Fear of what? Each other? Hitting? Losing the TV? I'm confused... what do
you want them to be fearful of?
*******

They do not stop playing with each other even if they hit each other. They do not fear each other. I do not want them to be fearful.




Shane
Mom to Theodore (8), Issac (5), and Harrison (3)

Out of debt, out of danger.
~Proverb, (Italian)~

http://www.daveramsey.com - Get REAL debt help: Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover Plan (Link to http://www.daveramsey.com)

-Tell your story. Listen to other tell their story-

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Shane Silverman"
<danburydoula@...> wrote:
> They do not stop playing with each other even if they hit each
>other. They do not fear each other. I do not want them to be
>fearful.
>

So, is the problem that *you* aren't comfortable seeing them hit
each other? Some kids are pretty rough and use hitting as a way of
problem solving - that's not necessarily a bad thing if both the
kids are okay with hitting as a solution.

My 5yo's best pal is a year older than she is. Both girls are very
energetic and sometimes they choose to solve their differences in
very direct, physical ways - hitting, grabbing, etc. They also play
somewhat violent games consensually. Over time the other mom and I
have developed strategies with the girls for how and when *we*
should step in - its not intuitively obvious to us grown-ups. They
don't always *want* our help. So we've all had to learn how to
communicate around this issue.

Neither one of them plays in quite the same way with other kids.
They both tend to solicit rough play, but with kids they don't know
they are both also much more likely to attempt a peaceful solution
to a problem *first*. That's interesting and pretty reassuring to
me. Its not a case of them lacking better skills.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Shane Silverman

QUOTE: So, is the problem that *you* aren't comfortable seeing them hit each other? **********

Oh, I don't mind them being physical. What gets to me is that when the two younger get hit they come wining and crying to me or daddy. After a discussion with the two children involved and a little hugging they go off and play again. My middle child cries the same intensity to being wacked and not getting his way with his brothers.

We talk it through, we talk about what is happening, we think of alternatives, we have done consequenses (finding here that is a BIG no-no). I have alway let them deal with it on their own. When they come to me is when in interject, or big screams are heard.


Shane
Mom to Theodore (8), Issac (5), and Harrison (3)

Out of debt, out of danger.
~Proverb, (Italian)~

http://www.daveramsey.com - Get REAL debt help: Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover Plan (Link to http://www.daveramsey.com)

-Tell your story. Listen to other tell their story-

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Laurie

When my kids come to "tattle" on someone else, I ask them, "Why are
you telling *me*? I didn't hit you. If L hit you and you didn't like
it, tell him that you don't like it and ask him to stop." When we
first started this method, I would even model the sentence "L, I don't
like it when you hit me. (or it hurts when you hit me) Please stop,"
so they got the idea but they can do it themselves now. (Of course,
they know if this doesn't work that they can come to me but I do ask
them to try to do it themselves first.) This has done several things
for us:
1. They realize that Mom isn't the arbitrator and they can work things
out for themselves. This helps because when you take away the mom
power of "I'm gonna tell her and get YOU in trouble!", it really
changes the dynamics.
2. The whining and crying is very minimal now (well, except for my
almost 2yr old...lol) and usually restricted to when they're REALLY hurt.
3. I've even seen one accidentally hit the other, run to the freezer
and get an ice pack (that stays on for all of 10 seconds at best) and
apologize right away. A simple "I'm sorry, are you ok?" goes SUCH a
longer way for kids than some adults I know. ;)
4. It really gives them a sense of power - and not in a bad way but
think about it...when adults allow kids to tattle, those kids feel
powerless to fix the problem themselves and always bring in a 3rd
party. If we encourage them to stand up for themselves at a young age
with a safe subject (siblings), I feel they'll be much better prepared
for life. I see my kids handling situations like this with their
friends and cousins already and it's nice to see. I never felt I
could use my voice as a child and I'm glad they haven't had the same
experience.

It's really refreshing to see my 3(*just* 4 now) and 6yr old get along
so well. I'm sure some unschoolers would disagree with our method but
it's what works for us. And more importantly than following
"unschooling rules" (LOL what a contradiction in terms!!) is finding
what works for your family.

Laurie

--- In [email protected], "Shane Silverman"
<danburydoula@...> wrote:
>
> Oh, I don't mind them being physical. What gets to me is that when
the two younger get hit they come wining and crying to me or daddy.
After a discussion with the two children involved and a little hugging
they go off and play again. My middle child cries the same intensity
to being wacked and not getting his way with his brothers.

> Shane
> Mom to Theodore (8), Issac (5), and Harrison (3)

Ren Allen

~~1. They realize that Mom isn't the arbitrator and they can work things
out for themselves. This helps because when you take away the mom
power of "I'm gonna tell her and get YOU in trouble!", it really
changes the dynamics.~~


Mom SHOULD be the arbitrator though. Kids NEED an adult that is
present and willing to be a facilitator for their difficult moments no
matter what. They don't have the skills to always work things out in a
peaceful or respectful manner.

My kids have me as an arbitrator at all times. This doesn't mean I
step in instantly, but if there is anything harmful going on I am
right there. I don't wait for it to become painful to arbitrate for
them either.

Arbitrating doesn't mean anyone is in trouble here. It means an adult
is between two opposing parties helping them communicate and solve
problems calmly. My kids don't come "tattle" because we don't use
punishment as a tool (nor do I see it as a negative thing when they
give me information about a sibling)...but they DO tell me things that
are going on because they know I'll help them.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~And more importantly than following
"unschooling rules" (LOL what a contradiction in terms!!) is finding
what works for your family.~~


There are no unschooling rules. But there is an underlying philosophy
of respect that we are here to discuss.

What works for some families is hitting, shaming and
punishing....we're not here to support "whatever works for your
family" but respectful methods that help families connect on a deeper
level. Within that framework there is a LOT of "whatever works" but
we're here to specifically assist people in moving towards more
peaceful and joyful solutions.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~When my kids come to "tattle" on someone else, I ask them, "Why are
you telling *me*? ~~

They might quit telling you then. They are probably learning that Mom
is not only lacking empathy for their pain, but expecting them to work
it out on their own....where does that leave a child that needs help
or sympathy?

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: danburydoula@...


We talk it through, we talk about what is happening, we think of
alternatives,
we have done consequenses (finding here that is a BIG no-no).

-=-=-

Just to clarify. Consequences are NOT a big no-no here. Punishment IS.

Understanding the difference between the two could be a HUGE step in
understanding the principles and philosophy of unschooling.

Consequences happen naturally. You don't need to "set up" or
"establish" consequences. They happen whether you plan them or not. If
you go out to play in the rain, you get wet (unless you bring an
umbrella or raincoat).

Punishments, on the other hand, are parent-imposed and have nothing at
all to do with the situation in the first place. If you go out to play
in the rain, you don't get to watch tv tonight.

Children understand and appreciate consequences. They just resent
punishment.

~Kelly



Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://LiveandLearnConference.org


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Stephanie DeBruhl

Thanks for sharing that, I think you have some really great ideas. I even saved your post to show my husband when he gets home!

Stephanie DeBruhl

Laurie <unschoolingblogger@...> wrote:
When my kids come to "tattle" on someone else, I ask them, "Why are
you telling *me*? I didn't hit you. If L hit you and you didn't like
it, tell him that you don't like it and ask him to stop."


.





---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Laurie

Gee Ren, did I strike a nerve? Someone asked a question and I
answered. You had the opportunity to add your opinion and yet felt
the need to send THREE posts to the entire group dogging my opinion
instead?

I will say that I DID state that my kids are very welcome to come to
me if they cannot resolve the issue between them (or if they choose
not to and they have never complained or stated that this is not
working for them. In fact, they have had great success with it).
Again, this is what works for US in our 'unschooling
environment'...letting them think for themselves, giving them their
own voices, letting them be heard by siblings and adults alike. I
believe I am respecting my children by letting them "peacefully and
joyfully" deal with their own issues and by serving as their back-up
when needed.

Because I've seen board issues erupt from posts such as these, I won't
be responding further.

Regards,
Laurie

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~And more importantly than following
> "unschooling rules" (LOL what a contradiction in terms!!) is finding
> what works for your family.~~
>
>
> There are no unschooling rules. But there is an underlying philosophy
> of respect that we are here to discuss.
>
> What works for some families is hitting, shaming and
> punishing....we're not here to support "whatever works for your
> family" but respectful methods that help families connect on a deeper
> level. Within that framework there is a LOT of "whatever works" but
> we're here to specifically assist people in moving towards more
> peaceful and joyful solutions.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Shane Silverman"
<danburydoula@...> wrote:
> I have alway let them deal with it on their own. When they come
>to me is when in interject, or big screams are heard.

I think its important to help kids feel confident in their ability
to solve problems, but that doesn't always mean letting them figure
things out on their own. Younger kids, especially, still need a lot
of "tools" for communication and practice doing it.

> Oh, I don't mind them being physical. What gets to me is that
>when the two younger get hit they come wining and crying to me or
>daddy.

I'm not sure why you're upset about this - don't you *want* them to
ask for help if they need it? If they are coming to you, I would say
they need help working out solutions and/or communicating. Kids
don't automatically know to say "Stop, I don't like that!" and will
often need some prompting or coaching - may even need an adult to
speak *for* them for a while.

>After a discussion with the two children involved and a little
>hugging they go off and play again.>snip<
> We talk it through, we talk about what is happening, we think of
>alternatives

Sounds good to me. It takes a while for kids to figure all this
stuff out. It isn't necessary or helpful to *impose* some penalty on
them if you are doing all of these things. That leaves them focussed
on the penalty, rather than the wonderful problem-solving.

> My middle child cries the same
>intensity to being wacked and not getting his way with his
>brothers.

He's a sensitive soul. Is that a bad thing? I like sensitive guys,
myself - got one in the kitchen right now, making me dinner ;) Your
guy may need some help communicating his needs *and* some validation
that its okay to be sad and dissapointed. If he has that validation,
he'll likely not feel compelled to hit someone when he doesn't get
his way. He can have a bit of a cry and go back to the fun. Learning
to manage difficult emotions can take years - plenty of adult men
don't seem to have figured it out, so helping yours now will go a
long way to one man's future happiness.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Katharine Wise

And some kids don't know how to stop when told to stop.

I was just talking about this with my 10yo yesterday. He thinks he's playing with a younger brother and the younger will scream because it hurts or is scary. I'll step in and say, "Stop. He's telling you to stop. That hurts." He'll reply, "No, he wasn't saying, 'stop'." (He's *very* literal.) It often will take my physically interfering to stop the behavior.

Yesterday I talked with him and broke it down into 3 pieces to try and figure out where the difficulty was. (1) Did he understand that it was important to stop when someone said stop/that they were being hurt and we needed to treat them the way we want to be treated? (2) Did he, in the moment, not understand that their screaming or groaning meant "stop"? (3) Was he unable to physically stop even though he understood #1 and #2? He said he thought it was #3. Good in that at least he's gotten through the first couple steps, but not so good in that the other 2 seem easier to teach.

Katharine

----- Original Message ----
From: plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...>

Kids

don't automatically know to say "Stop, I don't like that!" and will

often need some prompting or coaching - may even need an adult to

speak *for* them for a while.












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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa

I think my concern with the way this is worded is that it seems that it doesn't allow for
empathy. Tattling has such a negative connotation, and basically it seems that for some
people, 'tattling' should lead to an adult coming in and mandating a solution. To say "Why
are you telling me?" in my house would mean basically "So...I don't care, I didn't do it". So
when a child comes to me and says, "So n so hit me", I'll say something compassionate
first, like "Wow, I'll bet that did not feel good!" and leave the conversation open. If the child
is capable of going further, and needing more, it usually follows with "Yeah, and I didn't
like it," to which I could reply, "So, what can I do to help," Or "What's your plan?" If they
don't know, then I could offer solutions and again, more empathy. Sometimes all they
need is some hugging, and they can think through what really happened, their role in it,
and find some better solutions. It really depends on the child, each of them have different
skill levels with conflict management.
Melissa

--- In [email protected], "Laurie" <unschoolingblogger@...> wrote:
>
> When my kids come to "tattle" on someone else, I ask them, "Why are
> you telling *me*? I didn't hit you. <snip>
> 4. It really gives them a sense of power - and not in a bad way but
> think about it...when adults allow kids to tattle, those kids feel
> powerless to fix the problem themselves and always bring in a 3rd
> party.

Debra Rossing

> He said he thought it was #3. Good in that at least he's gotten
through the first couple steps, but not so good in that the other 2 seem
easier to teach.

Just putting this out there into the mix FWIW - whenever DS (8 1/2) has
been in a situation where he was unable to stop, it often ties back to
his being beyond hungry and needing some protein. Back a few years ago
(3 or 4 now), he was doing something (poking me or something similar)
that was annoying and becoming painful (poking the same spot over and
over and over again eventually hurts). I asked him to stop, all the
usual stuff. He didn't. He said "My brain won't let me stop" Ah-ha Ding!
(see the light bulb? lol) Connection made: it was several hours since he
had eaten something. I offered a PBJ - he accepted. Behavior smoothed
out after the sandwich. Tested hypothesis subsequently (not in a lab
experiment make him wait for food and see what happens way, just
observationally as circumstances arose). Pointed out the connection to
him in a non-tense moment "I've noticed that when you .... it seems to
happen more if you haven't eaten anything, especially protein, for a
while. Maybe we can work on keeping an eye on that and see if it helps
your brain help you stop ..." In that, we proactively offered foods like
PBJ or ants on a log or whatever - some complex carbs and proteins - and
it did indeed help.

YMMV

Deb

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~You had the opportunity to add your opinion and yet felt
the need to send THREE posts to the entire group dogging my opinion
instead?~~

That is part of adding an opinion about a topic...sometimes when a
person responds to the original poster, their answer gets questioned.
If it's posted here, it's open to discussion. Please see the list
guidelines.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~I was just talking about this with my 10yo yesterday. He thinks he's
playing with a younger brother and the younger will scream because it
hurts or is scary. I'll step in and say, "Stop. He's telling you to
stop. That hurts." He'll reply, "No, he wasn't saying, 'stop'." (He's
*very* literal.) ~~

We used to talk about what "stop" meant...that it didn't need to be a
word, but sometimes an expression or a sign of discomfort. If you
noticed any of those things, it meant "stop NOW".

I have a younger child that doesn't read other people well, so that's
a whole different issue and needs other solutions. But my older
children figured out that the person didn't need to say
"stop"......showing displeasure meant "stop" too.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Laurie"
<unschoolingblogger@...> wrote:
>>They realize that Mom isn't the arbitrator and they can work things
> out for themselves.

As much as I want my 5yo to be able to communicate and work things
out on her own, I also want her to be able to know that sometimes
she *does* need help, and needs it up front, not after she's tried
unsuccessfully to get her own needs met. So rather than saying:
>"Why are
> you telling *me*? I didn't hit you

I'd ask her if she was mad and did she need help telling the other
kid. Asking how she feels about things is a really important part of
the process, since Mo's a pretty physical kid, especially. Hitting
or not-hitting is far less important than the feelings of the people
involved.

> The whining and crying is very minimal now (well, except for my
> almost 2yr old...lol) and usually restricted to when they're
>REALLY hurt.

I'd be concerned if my kids stopped coming to me for emotional
support. I consider part of my job as a parent to be the kind of
emotional sounding-board for them that my partner and girlfriend are
for me. There are plenty of times when I just want to vent - and
sometimes that's all Morgan, especially, needs when she comes to me
in tears. She doesn't need a solution, she needs a hug or for me to
say "yeah, that would make me mad, too."

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Lisa Heyman

>From: Katharine Wise <katharinewise@...>
>And some kids don't know how to stop when told to stop.

sometimes a person doesn't hear the word stop right away.

>
>I was just talking about this with my 10yo yesterday. He thinks he's
>playing with a younger brother and the younger will scream because it hurts
>or is scary. I'll step in and say, "Stop. He's telling you to stop. That
>hurts." He'll reply, "No, he wasn't saying, 'stop'." (He's *very*
>literal.) It often will take my physically interfering to stop the
>behavior.>>>

sometimes my kids will rough house with dh and to me it sounds scary - they
will yell and scream - it's uncomfortable for me to witness their behavour
together, so i need to leave the room. because of my need/discomfort we've
discussed it and they've assured me that no body was hurt they were having
fun. We've also talked about the magic words that anyone can use at anytime
to cry uncle, "stop," "don't do that," and "no." Both girls (and dh) know
how to use the word when they want to stop something. Without direct
expression it is unclear to ME what someones intention may be when rough
housing. Each dd has a different tolerance for the rough stuff. They
really do enjoy the physical rough play that their father gives them.


<<I talked with him and broke it down into 3 pieces to try and figure out
where the difficulty was. (1) Did he understand that it was important to
stop when someone said stop/that they were being hurt and we needed to treat
them the way we want to be treated? (2) Did he, in the moment, not
understand that their screaming or groaning meant "stop"? (3) Was he
unable to physically stop even though he understood #1 and #2? He said he
thought it was #3. Good in that at least he's gotten through the first
couple steps, but not so good in that the other 2 seem easier to teach.
>


Have you talked to your younger child about using his words to communicate
clearly as well? There is more than one person in this situation. I've
found that discussing openly with everyone involved - my perception may not
be what others feel and perhaps what i percieve as the problem is not the
problem at all...something entirely different may arise <lol>

there are occasions when i have heard the word stop used and it's not being
responded to. I will then step in and simply state that i've heard the
word stop. Its not done in anger or judgement - just a helpful reminding
voice - kind of like oh hand me the ketchup please. This reminder of what
was said may be all your older son needs (especially since your above
mentioned conversation) in order for him to hear and respond to the
information.

Lisa Heyman

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plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Laurie"
<unschoolingblogger@...> wrote:
>>They realize that Mom isn't the arbitrator and they can work things
> out for themselves.

As much as I want my 5yo to be able to communicate and work things
out on her own, I also want her to be able to know that sometimes
she *does* need help, and needs it up front, not after she's tried
unsuccessfully to get her own needs met. So rather than saying:
>"Why are
> you telling *me*? I didn't hit you

I'd ask her if she was mad and did she need help telling the other
kid. Asking how she feels about things is a really important part of
the process, since Mo's a pretty physical kid, especially. Hitting
or not-hitting is far less important than the feelings of the people
involved.

> The whining and crying is very minimal now (well, except for my
> almost 2yr old...lol) and usually restricted to when they're
>REALLY hurt.

I'd be concerned if my kids stopped coming to me for emotional
support. I consider part of my job as a parent to be the kind of
emotional sounding-board for them that my partner and girlfriend are
for me. There are plenty of times when I just want to vent - and
sometimes that's all Morgan, especially, needs when she comes to me
in tears. She doesn't need a solution, she needs a hug or for me to
say "yeah, that would make me mad, too."

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Laurie"
<unschoolingblogger@...> wrote:
>> I'm sure some unschoolers would disagree with our method but
> it's what works for us. And more importantly than following
> "unschooling rules" (LOL what a contradiction in terms!!) is
finding
> what works for your family.

I wanted to pull this out bc its kind of a problematical statement.
On the one hand, we certainly do want to honor our unique kids and
diverse family environments. OTOH, "what works" is far too often the
statement parents use to overlook less-than-stellar parenting, our
own as often as others.

The other day, after filling an entire lawn-and-leaf bag with the
paper scraps that had taken over my living room in the course of
that one day, I was so aggravated I took the rest of the paper and
hid it. Then I went and had a good bit of a rant to my partner about
mess and waste and how sick of it all I was. He listened and nodded
and I was all ready for a nice hug and some variation on "well,
honey, we have to do what works for our family". Instead, George
gave me a sneaky smirk and teased "I'm gonna tell the unschoolers".
Yikes!

Some days, I'm really not in the mood to be a mindful parent. Its
messy. Its a hassle. It takes mental stretching when I want to eat
chocolate and deep breaths when I'd rather gripe and moan. Radical
unschooling challenges me to be a better mom every day. It would
have been sooooo much more convenient to fall back on "well, this
works" than to figure out why I was so honked off in the first
place, start looking for solutions *and* appologise to my kid.

I'm so grateful that George is supportive of this process.
Unschooling isn't any more convenient for him than it is for me, but
he's still willing to stick his neck out and gently remind me of
what my principles are, what kind of person I want to be. He knows
that "whatever works" is not the answer I'm looking for.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Lisa Heyman

>From: "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...>

>Some days, I'm really not in the mood to be a mindful parent. Its
>messy. Its a hassle. It takes mental stretching when I want to eat
>chocolate and deep breaths when I'd rather gripe and moan. Radical
>unschooling challenges me to be a better mom every day. It would
>have been sooooo much more convenient to fall back on "well, this
>works" than to figure out why I was so honked off in the first
>place, start looking for solutions *and* appologise to my kid.
>
Oh Meredith - i have been so enjoying the wisdom of your posts and now i am
enjoying the wisdom of your "human-beingness" <g>. Even veteran unschoolers
can find ourselves pulling our hair out and need to step back in order to
regain our higher self.

thanks for all your shares.
Lisa Heyman

_________________________________________________________________
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Katharine Wise

That's an interesting thought -- I'll have to watch. I have been offering a lot more snacks -- especially protein (lots of nuts and seeds) -- since reading about the monkey plates and protein a few weeks ago. But I'll try to see if I see a pattern between and what he last ate. My inclination is to think that he never stops (quickly, anyway) regardless of when/what he ate last, but I hope you're right!

Thanks,
Katharine

----- Original Message ----


Just putting this out there into the mix FWIW - whenever DS (8 1/2) has

been in a situation where he was unable to stop, it often ties back to

his being beyond hungry and needing some protein.










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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Katharine Wise

What kinds of solutions did you use with your younger child? We have talked, repeatedly, about body language different ways people say stop. And, per my discussion with him the other day, he says he does know that they mean stop, but he just can't... however, because he is so literal and doesn't pick up social cues well, I'm not fully convinced.

Katharine

----- Original Message ----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>


I have a younger child that doesn't read other people well, so that's

a whole different issue and needs other solutions. But my older

children figured out that the person didn't need to say

"stop"...... showing displeasure meant "stop" too.












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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanne

Yes, I agree. I often hear parents say "this works for our family",
but if fact, it works for the parents, not the kids. (not saying the
person who originally posted meant that). I think sometimes those
parents feel if their children are compliant, it must be working.
Good post Meredith!

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (14)
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/





--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:


> I wanted to pull this out bc its kind of a problematical
statement.
> On the one hand, we certainly do want to honor our unique kids and
> diverse family environments. OTOH, "what works" is far too often
the
> statement parents use to overlook less-than-stellar parenting, our
> own as often as others.
>
> The other day, after filling an entire lawn-and-leaf bag with the
> paper scraps that had taken over my living room in the course of
> that one day, I was so aggravated I took the rest of the paper and
> hid it. Then I went and had a good bit of a rant to my partner
about
> mess and waste and how sick of it all I was. He listened and
nodded
> and I was all ready for a nice hug and some variation on "well,
> honey, we have to do what works for our family". Instead, George
> gave me a sneaky smirk and teased "I'm gonna tell the
unschoolers".
> Yikes!
>
> Some days, I'm really not in the mood to be a mindful parent. Its
> messy. Its a hassle. It takes mental stretching when I want to eat
> chocolate and deep breaths when I'd rather gripe and moan. Radical
> unschooling challenges me to be a better mom every day. It would
> have been sooooo much more convenient to fall back on "well, this
> works" than to figure out why I was so honked off in the first
> place, start looking for solutions *and* appologise to my kid.
>
> I'm so grateful that George is supportive of this process.
> Unschooling isn't any more convenient for him than it is for me,
but
> he's still willing to stick his neck out and gently remind me of
> what my principles are, what kind of person I want to be. He knows
> that "whatever works" is not the answer I'm looking for.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>