giving vs. doormats
Katharine Wise
Someone (Joyce?) recently made a distinction (or possibly I read it on a website) between saying yes whenever possible with our goal being to help our children get what they want/need and being a doormat. I was talking with a friend about this today and she said, "That's my problem -- being a doormat and then feeling put-upon and getting angry -- but how do you do that?" Since I'm still trying to figure this one out myself, I'm hoping you all have some answers!
If you want a specific scenario, here's one, although I'm really looking for broader thoughts rather than help on this incident:
Trying to get out the door early to a commitment (substitute teaching Sunday School) and 4yo wants a toy. Find the toy. Wants a snack. Fix the snack. Wants something else, I no longer remember what, find it. Get to the car, snack falls, wants it washed off -- but by now we're 10 minutes *late* as I discover car clock is later than kitchen clock. Rest of the family had gone earlier, so I was on my own. This time I said, "I'm sorry, it fell in the dirt, and you really wanted to eat it now. I really don't have time to wash it now because we're already late and people at church are depending on me and wondering where we are. We can take it in to the water fountain and wash it at church." But really, I think I did too many things before we left. I really did have a time commitment, but I kept thinking, "It will be much faster to find the toy than to try to take an upset child..."
Thanks,
Katharine
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If you want a specific scenario, here's one, although I'm really looking for broader thoughts rather than help on this incident:
Trying to get out the door early to a commitment (substitute teaching Sunday School) and 4yo wants a toy. Find the toy. Wants a snack. Fix the snack. Wants something else, I no longer remember what, find it. Get to the car, snack falls, wants it washed off -- but by now we're 10 minutes *late* as I discover car clock is later than kitchen clock. Rest of the family had gone earlier, so I was on my own. This time I said, "I'm sorry, it fell in the dirt, and you really wanted to eat it now. I really don't have time to wash it now because we're already late and people at church are depending on me and wondering where we are. We can take it in to the water fountain and wash it at church." But really, I think I did too many things before we left. I really did have a time commitment, but I kept thinking, "It will be much faster to find the toy than to try to take an upset child..."
Thanks,
Katharine
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with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
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Tina Steiner
Katharine I to am wondering about this. I have 6 kids and I try my best to do for them but it is like a never ending job. I get so down on myself because the simple things that need to be done are not getting done, and it feels like the more you give the more they want. I hope to gleem some wisdom from the group also.
Tina_
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Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 20, 2007, at 4:52 PM, Katharine Wise wrote:
like doormats - are due to lack of allowing enough time to
accommodate all the "little things" that are really important to
children. My suggestion is to always add a LOT of time to every
activity and then EXPECT to handle lots and lots of little requests.
They won't feel like unreasonable demands if you expect and plan
ahead for them
So - if Sunday school is at 10 and it takes 20 minutes to get there,
then start about an hour ahead of time to get out the door. If you
end up super early - that's cool, go for a walk in the neighborhood
of the church while you wait.
The same is true even for things you're doing at home, not just for
"going out" activities. So much stress and resultant annoyance with
kids can be avoided if we remember not to make plans in "adult time,"
but in "kid time," instead.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If you want a specific scenario, here's one, although I'm reallyMANY of the situations in which people feel the way you describe -
> looking for broader thoughts rather than help on this incident:
>
> Trying to get out the door early to a commitment (substitute
> teaching Sunday School) and 4yo wants a toy. Find the toy. Wants
> a snack. Fix the snack. Wants something else, I no longer
> remember what, find it. Get to the car, snack falls, wants it
> washed off -- but by now we're 10 minutes *late* as I discover car
> clock is later than kitchen clock.
like doormats - are due to lack of allowing enough time to
accommodate all the "little things" that are really important to
children. My suggestion is to always add a LOT of time to every
activity and then EXPECT to handle lots and lots of little requests.
They won't feel like unreasonable demands if you expect and plan
ahead for them
So - if Sunday school is at 10 and it takes 20 minutes to get there,
then start about an hour ahead of time to get out the door. If you
end up super early - that's cool, go for a walk in the neighborhood
of the church while you wait.
The same is true even for things you're doing at home, not just for
"going out" activities. So much stress and resultant annoyance with
kids can be avoided if we remember not to make plans in "adult time,"
but in "kid time," instead.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I agree with trying to allow extra, extra time to get ready particularly if you have small children who cannot 'do' for themselves. The older children can do some things for themselves (e.g., getting the last minute cup of juice as we race out the door) , or even helping a younger sib get a last minute cup of juice so mommy can take care of the infant. I find it works well if we make it a team effort to get out the door on time and peacefully. The old option in our famliy (which did not work so well) was mommy racing around trying to get everyone else ready and out the door (including herself) without blowing a fuse or resorting to screeching at the children ( which I would feel terribly guilty about once we were in the car on our way). (It seemed no matter how early we got up there was always a last minute frantic race to get out the door) . My children (as do most I suspect) tend to get themselves immersed in whatever game they are playing at the moment and 'forget' that we
need to leave by a certain time. I still need to remind them (no matter how early we start the process of 'getting ready' ) to make sure they get socks and shoes on, get whatever toys they are bringing along , etc., SEVERAL times. :-) I do try to teach my children (when they are old enough to understand of course) that when we make certain types of commitments ( a doctor appointment for example) that it is important to arrive on time out of respect for the doctor's time and also for the patients who have appointments following ours. I try to show them that, when you are told you have an hour before the family needs to leave for an appointment, you need to think about making sure you are dressed, fed, and have used the toilet. Oh, and that you gathered up a book or toy if you want to take it along. Naturally I help as needed with these tasks but as my children become older they can take more responsibility for some of these things. I don't think it sends a good message t
o
my children if I allow them to run back into the house for forgotten toys or a last minute drink at the expense of the doctor (or whoever is waiting on our arrival). For us its a better lesson to let the child go without the toy for the hour we are at the doctor appt that day.Perhaps then the next time a similar situation arises and mommy says an hour in advance' ok guys, be sure you get a toy ready, its close to time to leave' the child will remember (and I will remind him gently) being unhappy because he forgot a toy and be certain to have it ready this time around. Its not that I think my child's needs are less important than the doctor's time but we have to function in a society where at times appointments must be made and kept. And I do want my children to be respectful of others' time and needs, as well as their own.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
need to leave by a certain time. I still need to remind them (no matter how early we start the process of 'getting ready' ) to make sure they get socks and shoes on, get whatever toys they are bringing along , etc., SEVERAL times. :-) I do try to teach my children (when they are old enough to understand of course) that when we make certain types of commitments ( a doctor appointment for example) that it is important to arrive on time out of respect for the doctor's time and also for the patients who have appointments following ours. I try to show them that, when you are told you have an hour before the family needs to leave for an appointment, you need to think about making sure you are dressed, fed, and have used the toilet. Oh, and that you gathered up a book or toy if you want to take it along. Naturally I help as needed with these tasks but as my children become older they can take more responsibility for some of these things. I don't think it sends a good message t
o
my children if I allow them to run back into the house for forgotten toys or a last minute drink at the expense of the doctor (or whoever is waiting on our arrival). For us its a better lesson to let the child go without the toy for the hour we are at the doctor appt that day.Perhaps then the next time a similar situation arises and mommy says an hour in advance' ok guys, be sure you get a toy ready, its close to time to leave' the child will remember (and I will remind him gently) being unhappy because he forgot a toy and be certain to have it ready this time around. Its not that I think my child's needs are less important than the doctor's time but we have to function in a society where at times appointments must be made and kept. And I do want my children to be respectful of others' time and needs, as well as their own.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
On Feb 20, 2007, at 4:52 PM, Katharine Wise wrote:
> If you want a specific scenario, here's one, although I'm really
> looking for broader thoughts rather than help on this incident:
>
> Trying to get out the door early to a commitment (substitute
> teaching Sunday School) and 4yo wants a toy. Find the toy. Wants
> a snack. Fix the snack. Wants something else, I no longer
> remember what, find it. Get to the car, snack falls, wants it
> washed off -- but by now we're 10 minutes *late* as I discover car
> clock is later than kitchen clock.
MANY of the situations in which people feel the way you describe -
like doormats - are due to lack of allowing enough time to
accommodate all the "little things" that are really important to
children. My suggestion is to always add a LOT of time to every
activity and then EXPECT to handle lots and lots of little requests.
They won't feel like unreasonable demands if you expect and plan
ahead for them
So - if Sunday school is at 10 and it takes 20 minutes to get there,
then start about an hour ahead of time to get out the door. If you
end up super early - that's cool, go for a walk in the neighborhood
of the church while you wait.
The same is true even for things you're doing at home, not just for
"going out" activities. So much stress and resultant annoyance with
kids can be avoided if we remember not to make plans in "adult time,"
but in "kid time," instead.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: katharinewise@...
Someone (Joyce?) recently made a distinction (or possibly I read it
on a
website) between saying yes whenever possible with our goal being to
help our
children get what they want/need and being a doormat. I was talking
with a
friend about this today and she said, "That's my problem -- being a
doormat and
then feeling put-upon and getting angry -- but how do you do that?"
Since I'm
still trying to figure this one out myself, I'm hoping you all have
some
answers!
-=-=-=-=-=-
Unfortunately, there's not a *solution*---it's more of a paradigm shift.
It's understanding that these little people NEED us so damned much! I
mean: really, really NEED us!
We *all* (even my heroes, Deb and Rue) sometimes feel put-upon and get
angry. But it's not THAT we feel that way---it's how we choose to
handle it when it happens.
Before unschooling, I would fuss and TELL them how put out I was---or
ask them to do it themselves, damn it! Then after starting to
incorporate the ideas I read from unschoolers, I would still grind my
teeth and glare. <g> Now, years later, I may still feel deep down
somewhere as if they *could* do it themselves (they *are* a lot older,
after all! <g>). Instead I smile and happily do it, knowing that it
*could* be the last time I get to do it.
Honestly, it's about changing the mind-set---changing the way YOU feel
about the same thing/situation. And KNOW that they won't be little
forever. They won't be around forever: children grow up and move out.
Unfortunately, some die very young. There are no guarantees!
How would you treat them if this were the last day you had together?
Would you be GLAD to be a doormat? Would even SEE yourself as a
doormat? Or as a mom who adores them and can't get enough of them and
can't DO enough for them?
It won't always work---some days you *will* feel worn out and unable to
do *one more thing* for them. But if that *were* the last thing you
*could* do---wouldn't you? And it gets easier: the more you practice
gentle, mindful parenting, the easier it gets---plus: they get older
every single minute!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
If you want a specific scenario, here's one, although I'm really
looking for
broader thoughts rather than help on this incident:
Trying to get out the door early to a commitment (substitute teaching
Sunday
School) and 4yo wants a toy. Find the toy. Wants a snack. Fix the
snack.
Wants something else, I no longer remember what, find it. Get to the
car, snack
falls, wants it washed off -- but by now we're 10 minutes *late* as I
discover
car clock is later than kitchen clock. Rest of the family had gone
earlier, so
I was on my own. This time I said, "I'm sorry, it fell in the dirt,
and you
really wanted to eat it now. I really don't have time to wash it now
because
we're already late and people at church are depending on me and
wondering where
we are. We can take it in to the water fountain and wash it at
church." But
really, I think I did too many things before we left. I really did
have a time
commitment, but I kept thinking, "It will be much faster to find the
toy than to
try to take an upset child..."
-=-=-=-=-=--=
I know it was just an example, but let's use it:
I think a big part of it is seeing that NONE of that was *his* fault!
YES, if you were childless, you could get out the door quickly and
easily. You're not! You need to prepare ahead of time. You're a
parent---and parents run on "kid time" not adult time! <g>
Can't fix what's already passed, but in this instance: Maybe he's too
young for you to make outside commitments, like subbing at Sunday
school. And if you *do* have places to go (on time), you may need to
either realize you'll be late OR---better: get up earlier! Have all
those things in order and already in the car or in a bag to grab
(snack, toys, shoes, coats) as you walk out the door. Be proactive! If
you *know* he'll need these things, get them ready the night before or
before he wakes up.
As far as the clock thing: that was *really* not his fault! <bwg>
It probably WAS a lot faster to find the toy---and I'm sure he
appreciated your searching for it! As well as your explanantion of why
you needed to go. But again---that was not *his* problem! <G> HE didn't
make that commitment! <g>
I HATE to be late, so if I am, there was something really wrong. I get
up extra early and try to pack and organize things ahead of time. I
like to be able to just walk aout the door. Cameron (19) is like that
now: years of modelling! <g> Duncan (11 next week) is getting that
way---especially with trips, but I still do most of his packing and
organizing. I also remind him of things that I know he'd miss having
along(stuffed animal, game, pillow).
You already know what went wrong *last* time, so you can take steps to
avoid *those* things next time. There will still be new things that
come up <g>, but you can add those things as you learn them to make it
better and better. He will too!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: katharinewise@...
Someone (Joyce?) recently made a distinction (or possibly I read it
on a
website) between saying yes whenever possible with our goal being to
help our
children get what they want/need and being a doormat. I was talking
with a
friend about this today and she said, "That's my problem -- being a
doormat and
then feeling put-upon and getting angry -- but how do you do that?"
Since I'm
still trying to figure this one out myself, I'm hoping you all have
some
answers!
-=-=-=-=-=-
Unfortunately, there's not a *solution*---it's more of a paradigm shift.
It's understanding that these little people NEED us so damned much! I
mean: really, really NEED us!
We *all* (even my heroes, Deb and Rue) sometimes feel put-upon and get
angry. But it's not THAT we feel that way---it's how we choose to
handle it when it happens.
Before unschooling, I would fuss and TELL them how put out I was---or
ask them to do it themselves, damn it! Then after starting to
incorporate the ideas I read from unschoolers, I would still grind my
teeth and glare. <g> Now, years later, I may still feel deep down
somewhere as if they *could* do it themselves (they *are* a lot older,
after all! <g>). Instead I smile and happily do it, knowing that it
*could* be the last time I get to do it.
Honestly, it's about changing the mind-set---changing the way YOU feel
about the same thing/situation. And KNOW that they won't be little
forever. They won't be around forever: children grow up and move out.
Unfortunately, some die very young. There are no guarantees!
How would you treat them if this were the last day you had together?
Would you be GLAD to be a doormat? Would even SEE yourself as a
doormat? Or as a mom who adores them and can't get enough of them and
can't DO enough for them?
It won't always work---some days you *will* feel worn out and unable to
do *one more thing* for them. But if that *were* the last thing you
*could* do---wouldn't you? And it gets easier: the more you practice
gentle, mindful parenting, the easier it gets---plus: they get older
every single minute!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
If you want a specific scenario, here's one, although I'm really
looking for
broader thoughts rather than help on this incident:
Trying to get out the door early to a commitment (substitute teaching
Sunday
School) and 4yo wants a toy. Find the toy. Wants a snack. Fix the
snack.
Wants something else, I no longer remember what, find it. Get to the
car, snack
falls, wants it washed off -- but by now we're 10 minutes *late* as I
discover
car clock is later than kitchen clock. Rest of the family had gone
earlier, so
I was on my own. This time I said, "I'm sorry, it fell in the dirt,
and you
really wanted to eat it now. I really don't have time to wash it now
because
we're already late and people at church are depending on me and
wondering where
we are. We can take it in to the water fountain and wash it at
church." But
really, I think I did too many things before we left. I really did
have a time
commitment, but I kept thinking, "It will be much faster to find the
toy than to
try to take an upset child..."
-=-=-=-=-=--=
I know it was just an example, but let's use it:
I think a big part of it is seeing that NONE of that was *his* fault!
YES, if you were childless, you could get out the door quickly and
easily. You're not! You need to prepare ahead of time. You're a
parent---and parents run on "kid time" not adult time! <g>
Can't fix what's already passed, but in this instance: Maybe he's too
young for you to make outside commitments, like subbing at Sunday
school. And if you *do* have places to go (on time), you may need to
either realize you'll be late OR---better: get up earlier! Have all
those things in order and already in the car or in a bag to grab
(snack, toys, shoes, coats) as you walk out the door. Be proactive! If
you *know* he'll need these things, get them ready the night before or
before he wakes up.
As far as the clock thing: that was *really* not his fault! <bwg>
It probably WAS a lot faster to find the toy---and I'm sure he
appreciated your searching for it! As well as your explanantion of why
you needed to go. But again---that was not *his* problem! <G> HE didn't
make that commitment! <g>
I HATE to be late, so if I am, there was something really wrong. I get
up extra early and try to pack and organize things ahead of time. I
like to be able to just walk aout the door. Cameron (19) is like that
now: years of modelling! <g> Duncan (11 next week) is getting that
way---especially with trips, but I still do most of his packing and
organizing. I also remind him of things that I know he'd miss having
along(stuffed animal, game, pillow).
You already know what went wrong *last* time, so you can take steps to
avoid *those* things next time. There will still be new things that
come up <g>, but you can add those things as you learn them to make it
better and better. He will too!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
Some of those requests are pretty predictable, too. I'm a list-
maker, and especially if I'm feeling a bit scattered a list can
really help this whole process *and* help me and Mo communicate
about our various needs. I put everything I can think of on my
getting-ready-to-go lists: getting snacks, finding shoes, going
pee... and if something else comes up - on the list it goes. Since
Mo's pretty visual, that really helps her understand what's going
on, why is mommy taking so long, and how our various needs in the
moment interact. She also likes crossing things off as they
get "done".
Really, I think the big difference between helping our kids get
their needs met and being a doormat is having open two-way
communication.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>> MANY of the situations in which people feel the way you describe -requests.
> like doormats - are due to lack of allowing enough time to
> accommodate all the "little things" that are really important to
> children. My suggestion is to always add a LOT of time to every
> activity and then EXPECT to handle lots and lots of little
Some of those requests are pretty predictable, too. I'm a list-
maker, and especially if I'm feeling a bit scattered a list can
really help this whole process *and* help me and Mo communicate
about our various needs. I put everything I can think of on my
getting-ready-to-go lists: getting snacks, finding shoes, going
pee... and if something else comes up - on the list it goes. Since
Mo's pretty visual, that really helps her understand what's going
on, why is mommy taking so long, and how our various needs in the
moment interact. She also likes crossing things off as they
get "done".
Really, I think the big difference between helping our kids get
their needs met and being a doormat is having open two-way
communication.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], TheLerews@... wrote:
isn't working. My expectations are too high, my kids aren't
understanding, or I'm just plain not paying enough attention. So I
try to remind myself to slow down, take some deep breaths, and look
at the whole situation differently. Do I need to stop and make a
list or do some other advance organization? Maybe I need to
reprioritize - most often by shifting my kids' needs to connect with
me to a higher level of importance.
arguments, I *told* you to get ready and even how. Ouch.
If going to the doctor is a regular occurrance in your family, maybe
y'all - and I mean all y'all together - can brainstorm some new
ideas for making the process easier. Are there some special books
and toys (and shoes and sweaters...) that can stay packed in the car
*just* for appts? Can you get ready the night before? Can you create
a bunch of mini-lists for each of the kids - say one kid gets to
round up all the shoes and line them up by the door while another
puts games in the car?
or "consequences" to that. The kids can tell the difference between
a smooth and a rough transition. Talking about what made it smooth
or rough, thanking them for their help, commiserating over forgotten
items - all those things can reinforce the feeling of "we're all
working together" and demonstrate the sort of mutual respect you are
hoping they learn.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>I still need to remind them (no matter how early we start theIf I find I'm repeating myself, I take that as a cue that something
>process of 'getting ready' ) to make sure they get socks and shoes
>on, get whatever toys they are bringing along , etc., SEVERAL
>times. :-)
isn't working. My expectations are too high, my kids aren't
understanding, or I'm just plain not paying enough attention. So I
try to remind myself to slow down, take some deep breaths, and look
at the whole situation differently. Do I need to stop and make a
list or do some other advance organization? Maybe I need to
reprioritize - most often by shifting my kids' needs to connect with
me to a higher level of importance.
>For us its a better lesson to let the child go without the toy forA better lesson for who? You? The receptionist?
>the hour we are at the doctor appt that day.
>Perhaps then the next time a similar situation arises and mommyThat's punishment. Do it my way or be unhappy - your fault, no
>says an hour in advance' ok guys, be sure you get a toy ready, its
>close to time to leave' the child will remember (and I will remind
>him gently) being unhappy because he forgot a toy and be certain to
>have it ready this time around.
arguments, I *told* you to get ready and even how. Ouch.
If going to the doctor is a regular occurrance in your family, maybe
y'all - and I mean all y'all together - can brainstorm some new
ideas for making the process easier. Are there some special books
and toys (and shoes and sweaters...) that can stay packed in the car
*just* for appts? Can you get ready the night before? Can you create
a bunch of mini-lists for each of the kids - say one kid gets to
round up all the shoes and line them up by the door while another
puts games in the car?
>I find it works well if we make it a team effort to get out theA team effort sounds great. You don't need to add "lessons"
>door on time and peacefully.
or "consequences" to that. The kids can tell the difference between
a smooth and a rough transition. Talking about what made it smooth
or rough, thanking them for their help, commiserating over forgotten
items - all those things can reinforce the feeling of "we're all
working together" and demonstrate the sort of mutual respect you are
hoping they learn.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: TheLerews@...
I agree with trying to allow extra, extra time to get ready
particularly if you
have small children who cannot 'do' for themselves. <snip> I find it
works well if we make it
a team effort to get out the door on time and peacefully.
-=-=-=-=-
Extra, extra time is really importat when you have littluns.
And working together almost always beats doing it all yourself! <g>
-=-=-=-=-=-
I do try to teach my children (when they are old enough to understand
of course)
that when we make certain types of commitments ( a doctor appointment
for
example) that it is important to arrive on time out of respect for the
doctor's
time and also for the patients who have appointments following ours.
-=-=-=-=-
I wish the doctors could be *just* as respectful of *my* time (and
that's coming from a doctor's kid! <g>). Just be aware of the lack of
reciprocation.
To me, it's simply important to be on time and respectful of others'
time---doesn't matter *who* is on the other end---the doctor, the
plumber, the cable guy, my kids!
-=-=-=-=-
I don't think it sends a good message to
my children if I allow them to run back into the house for forgotten
toys or a
last minute drink at the expense of the doctor (or whoever is waiting
on our
arrival).
-=-=-=-
Do you never run back into the house for anything? Car keys? money?
tickets? a sweater?
If one of us forgets something, we *quickly* discuss whether it's
better to turn around and run back in or forgo the missing/forgotten
item. I have modelled this enough that the boys can decide for
themselves what's more important. Sometimes it's NECESSARY to go back
for something. Other times, it's a just an inconvenience NOT to have it
with us.
-=-=-=-=-=-
For us its a better lesson to let the child go without the toy for the
hour we are at the doctor appt that day.
-=-=-=-
When "teaching lessons," it's important to understand that what's
*learned* isn't necessarily what you *think* you're "teaching."
And an hour at the doctor's office is certainly A LOT better (for
everyone!) when the toddler has his favorite toy---even if you're three
minutes late.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Perhaps then the next time a similar
situation arises and mommy says an hour in advance' ok guys, be sure
you get a
toy ready, its close to time to leave' the child will remember (and I
will
remind him gently) being unhappy because he forgot a toy and be certain
to have
it ready this time around.
-=-=-=-
But here's where it gets sticky:
*I* would be sure that the special toy is tucked under *MY* arm so that
the child knows how seriously I take his needs. I wouldn't make his
miss that toy in order to teach a lesson---or even be happy that maybe
next time he'd remember. If *I* remember, I'm passing on the care and
concern I hope he develops too. I'm showing *him* how important I find
*him*. By modelling *that*, I hope he will be just as compassionate and
generous as I've been to him. If he saw that I left my purse on the
kitchen table and yet walked on by to "teach me a lesson" not to forget
my purse,... yikes! I haven't modelled the behavior *I* want to see.
I'd hope he'd pick it up and kindly hand it to me, as I would for him!
-=-=-=-=-=-
Its not that I think my child's needs are less
important than the doctor's time but we have to function in a society
where at
times appointments must be made and kept. And I do want my children to
be
respectful of others' time and needs, as well as their own.
-=-=-=-=--
No one thinks you think your child's needs are less than. But the best
way to get our children to be respectful of others' time and needs is
to BE respectful of our children's time and needs.
If *we* make that extra effort *now*, *they* will make that extra
effort later, when they're ready.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
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security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: TheLerews@...
I agree with trying to allow extra, extra time to get ready
particularly if you
have small children who cannot 'do' for themselves. <snip> I find it
works well if we make it
a team effort to get out the door on time and peacefully.
-=-=-=-=-
Extra, extra time is really importat when you have littluns.
And working together almost always beats doing it all yourself! <g>
-=-=-=-=-=-
I do try to teach my children (when they are old enough to understand
of course)
that when we make certain types of commitments ( a doctor appointment
for
example) that it is important to arrive on time out of respect for the
doctor's
time and also for the patients who have appointments following ours.
-=-=-=-=-
I wish the doctors could be *just* as respectful of *my* time (and
that's coming from a doctor's kid! <g>). Just be aware of the lack of
reciprocation.
To me, it's simply important to be on time and respectful of others'
time---doesn't matter *who* is on the other end---the doctor, the
plumber, the cable guy, my kids!
-=-=-=-=-
I don't think it sends a good message to
my children if I allow them to run back into the house for forgotten
toys or a
last minute drink at the expense of the doctor (or whoever is waiting
on our
arrival).
-=-=-=-
Do you never run back into the house for anything? Car keys? money?
tickets? a sweater?
If one of us forgets something, we *quickly* discuss whether it's
better to turn around and run back in or forgo the missing/forgotten
item. I have modelled this enough that the boys can decide for
themselves what's more important. Sometimes it's NECESSARY to go back
for something. Other times, it's a just an inconvenience NOT to have it
with us.
-=-=-=-=-=-
For us its a better lesson to let the child go without the toy for the
hour we are at the doctor appt that day.
-=-=-=-
When "teaching lessons," it's important to understand that what's
*learned* isn't necessarily what you *think* you're "teaching."
And an hour at the doctor's office is certainly A LOT better (for
everyone!) when the toddler has his favorite toy---even if you're three
minutes late.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Perhaps then the next time a similar
situation arises and mommy says an hour in advance' ok guys, be sure
you get a
toy ready, its close to time to leave' the child will remember (and I
will
remind him gently) being unhappy because he forgot a toy and be certain
to have
it ready this time around.
-=-=-=-
But here's where it gets sticky:
*I* would be sure that the special toy is tucked under *MY* arm so that
the child knows how seriously I take his needs. I wouldn't make his
miss that toy in order to teach a lesson---or even be happy that maybe
next time he'd remember. If *I* remember, I'm passing on the care and
concern I hope he develops too. I'm showing *him* how important I find
*him*. By modelling *that*, I hope he will be just as compassionate and
generous as I've been to him. If he saw that I left my purse on the
kitchen table and yet walked on by to "teach me a lesson" not to forget
my purse,... yikes! I haven't modelled the behavior *I* want to see.
I'd hope he'd pick it up and kindly hand it to me, as I would for him!
-=-=-=-=-=-
Its not that I think my child's needs are less
important than the doctor's time but we have to function in a society
where at
times appointments must be made and kept. And I do want my children to
be
respectful of others' time and needs, as well as their own.
-=-=-=-=--
No one thinks you think your child's needs are less than. But the best
way to get our children to be respectful of others' time and needs is
to BE respectful of our children's time and needs.
If *we* make that extra effort *now*, *they* will make that extra
effort later, when they're ready.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
[email protected]
>>A better lesson for who? You? The receptionistA better lesson for the child ...... I know that if I find myself in a situation where I am unprepared and am uncomfortable as a result ( be that discomfort emotional or physical) it helps me to learn that the next time I want to be better prepared. Children are certainly capable of the same learning experiences. I am referring to a child who is old enough to understand the requests being made of him in advance of putting him a certain situation (e.g., please select a toy because it is almost time to go to baby's doctor appt) The intention is not to be cruel but as a different approach to helping them see the importance of getting ourselves ready to go out in more functional way for everybody- and precisely because nagging them over and over each and every time we went out of the house was not effective.
>>>Maybe I need toreprioritize - most often by shifting my kids' needs to connect with
me to a higher level of importance.
We all have responsibilities to other people besides our children. A parent might feel their children's needs should always take priority and in a perfect world or in a vaccuum this would be the case. There are times when even within a family one child's (sickness for example) needs might necessarily take priority over another child's needs (needing help with a video game). When mommy is helping her sick child throw-up the video game will have to wait . That is life. Sometimes the priority is being someplace and being there on time. If I have one sick infant in need of a doctor's attention, and two other children over the age of 7 who are feeling well and are capable of understanding that " baby needs to go to the doctor. We need to leave the house in 30 minutes to bring the baby to the doctor so please choose the toy you would like to bring along if any. This is not an unrealistic expectation, and there is no misunderstanding the request.
>>That's punishment. Do it my way or be unhappy - your fault, noarguments, I *told* you to get ready and even how. Ouch.
Punishment or consequence? The reality is that there are always consequences (be they positive or negative) to our actions. If a child is kindly reminded that the family is going to an appointment and asked if they would like to take along a toy- if that child says "yes" and mother says- "ok we will be leaving soon , please go ahead and select a toy so we can leave the house"- child says "ok"- then proceeds to get involved in another activity and forgets to choose a toy (mind you, this is not a single episode, occurs repeatedly), then another way of learning is needed. Unfortunately leaving toys packed in the car does not do the tricks. Tried and failed. There comes a time when I feel my children do need to understand and respect what the needs are of others in the family (and in their world).
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...>
--- In [email protected], TheLerews@... wrote:
>I still need to remind them (no matter how early we start the
>process of 'getting ready' ) to make sure they get socks and shoes
>on, get whatever toys they are bringing along , etc., SEVERAL
>times. :-)
If I find I'm repeating myself, I take that as a cue that something
isn't working. My expectations are too high, my kids aren't
understanding, or I'm just plain not paying enough attention. So I
try to remind myself to slow down, take some deep breaths, and look
at the whole situation differently. Do I need to stop and make a
list or do some other advance organization? Maybe I need to
reprioritize - most often by shifting my kids' needs to connect with
me to a higher level of importance.
>For us its a better lesson to let the child go without the toy for
>the hour we are at the doctor appt that day.
A better lesson for who? You? The receptionist?
>Perhaps then the next time a similar situation arises and mommy
>says an hour in advance' ok guys, be sure you get a toy ready, its
>close to time to leave' the child will remember (and I will remind
>him gently) being unhappy because he forgot a toy and be certain to
>have it ready this time around.
That's punishment. Do it my way or be unhappy - your fault, no
arguments, I *told* you to get ready and even how. Ouch.
If going to the doctor is a regular occurrance in your family, maybe
y'all - and I mean all y'all together - can brainstorm some new
ideas for making the process easier. Are there some special books
and toys (and shoes and sweaters...) that can stay packed in the car
*just* for appts? Can you get ready the night before? Can you create
a bunch of mini-lists for each of the kids - say one kid gets to
round up all the shoes and line them up by the door while another
puts games in the car?
>I find it works well if we make it a team effort to get out the
>door on time and peacefully.
A team effort sounds great. You don't need to add "lessons"
or "consequences" to that. The kids can tell the difference between
a smooth and a rough transition. Talking about what made it smooth
or rough, thanking them for their help, commiserating over forgotten
items - all those things can reinforce the feeling of "we're all
working together" and demonstrate the sort of mutual respect you are
hoping they learn.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melynda Laurent
*I* am not a nice mom if I am feeling under pressure or late so I generally
figure out what time I have to leave for XXX and then I add on 15 minutes
per child that's going with and back that off the time I need to leave. So
if I have an OB appt and I have to leave at 10 and all 3 kids are going with
me I leave at 9:15. Seems crazy but generally we are all happier, I am not
saying "hurry up" and I can accommodate the little crisis's that tend to
occur. IF we do get to the point where we do have to go, they are usually
pretty understanding and can wait as I have not been stressed out for the
past 20 minutes trying to get them some where. Does that make sense?
Melynda
dd 7, dd 3.5, ds 22 mo, edd 4/07
figure out what time I have to leave for XXX and then I add on 15 minutes
per child that's going with and back that off the time I need to leave. So
if I have an OB appt and I have to leave at 10 and all 3 kids are going with
me I leave at 9:15. Seems crazy but generally we are all happier, I am not
saying "hurry up" and I can accommodate the little crisis's that tend to
occur. IF we do get to the point where we do have to go, they are usually
pretty understanding and can wait as I have not been stressed out for the
past 20 minutes trying to get them some where. Does that make sense?
Melynda
dd 7, dd 3.5, ds 22 mo, edd 4/07
Manisha Kher
--- TheLerews@... wrote:
that my child is not developmentally ready for this
responsibility. I would help him select a toy and _I_
would make sure to take it along.
Manisha
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
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> If a child is kindlyIf this is happenning repeatedly then I would conclude
> reminded that the family is going to an appointment
> and asked if they would like to take along a toy- if
> that child says "yes" and mother says- "ok we will
> be leaving soon , please go ahead and select a toy
> so we can leave the house"- child says "ok"- then
> proceeds to get involved in another activity and
> forgets to choose a toy (mind you, this is not a
> single episode, occurs repeatedly), then another way
> of learning is needed.
that my child is not developmentally ready for this
responsibility. I would help him select a toy and _I_
would make sure to take it along.
Manisha
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
Amy R
I haven't been following this thread much, but something i read the other
day might help:
"It's not that i *have* to do things for the people I care for, it's that i
*get* to do those things"
It really changes your mindset and joy factor in doing some of the mundane
household things.
Amy
**************************************************************************
We use Elimination Communication (EC)
http://www.bornpottytrained.com
and do Baby-led intro to solids.
http://www.borstvoeding.com/voedselintroductie/vast_voedsel/rapley_guidelines.html
Ask me about it
amy_purple@hotmail. com
**************************************************************************
_________________________________________________________________
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day might help:
"It's not that i *have* to do things for the people I care for, it's that i
*get* to do those things"
It really changes your mindset and joy factor in doing some of the mundane
household things.
Amy
**************************************************************************
We use Elimination Communication (EC)
http://www.bornpottytrained.com
and do Baby-led intro to solids.
http://www.borstvoeding.com/voedselintroductie/vast_voedsel/rapley_guidelines.html
Ask me about it
amy_purple@hotmail. com
**************************************************************************
_________________________________________________________________
Advertisement: Getting married? Tell us why to WIN @ LetsShop
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Lisa
--- In [email protected], TheLerews@... wrote:
emotional or physical) it helps me to learn that the next time I want
to be better prepared. Children are certainly capable of the same
learning experiences.
**********
One of the tenets of unschooling is that everyone learns in their own
way. So that while you may learn from discomfort it may not be true
for others.
I'd suggest forgetting the premise that any other person is capable
of the same learning experience. Its kind of like saying, "it worked
for me it will work for you." If that were the case then
one 'curriculum' would work for everyone and there would be no need
for 'homeschooling' at all <g> - certainly no impetus to unschool.
*************
situation (e.g., please select a toy because it is almost time to go
to baby's doctor appt)
***********************
So the question i have is who is to determine what age is the right
age for understanding a request? We all learn different lessons at
different ages. we all interpret requests in different ways. The
way i communicate to one child in my home is very different than how
i might communicate to another. They are different people and i have
come to know that requests need to be addressed differently if i want
them to be understood.
In an unschooling venue expectations of learning are not based on
age. In fact expectations of learning only seems to get in the way
of real living, real relationships and real learning.
****************************
in more functional way for everybody-
***************************
or do you mean in a more functional (or convenient) way for
yourself? parenting is trully a selfless act.
****************************
************
i agree whole heartedly. If what i am doing repeatedly is
ineffective and i continue to repeat the same action expecting
different results i refer to this as insanity. So as the adult, i
can choose to take rational and responsible action by changing my
behavior and/or changing my expectations. It is my responsibility as
the parent to be mindful of what works best for my child. In our
house, coersion is not productive. Negative consequences do not build
positive self esteem. quite the contrary.
Lisa Heyman
>unprepared and am uncomfortable as a result ( be that discomfort
>...... I know that if I find myself in a situation where I am
emotional or physical) it helps me to learn that the next time I want
to be better prepared. Children are certainly capable of the same
learning experiences.
**********
One of the tenets of unschooling is that everyone learns in their own
way. So that while you may learn from discomfort it may not be true
for others.
I'd suggest forgetting the premise that any other person is capable
of the same learning experience. Its kind of like saying, "it worked
for me it will work for you." If that were the case then
one 'curriculum' would work for everyone and there would be no need
for 'homeschooling' at all <g> - certainly no impetus to unschool.
*************
>>I am referring to a child who is old enough to understand therequests being made of him in advance of putting him a certain
situation (e.g., please select a toy because it is almost time to go
to baby's doctor appt)
***********************
So the question i have is who is to determine what age is the right
age for understanding a request? We all learn different lessons at
different ages. we all interpret requests in different ways. The
way i communicate to one child in my home is very different than how
i might communicate to another. They are different people and i have
come to know that requests need to be addressed differently if i want
them to be understood.
In an unschooling venue expectations of learning are not based on
age. In fact expectations of learning only seems to get in the way
of real living, real relationships and real learning.
****************************
>> The intention is not to be cruel but as a different approach tohelping them see the importance of getting ourselves ready to go out
in more functional way for everybody-
***************************
or do you mean in a more functional (or convenient) way for
yourself? parenting is trully a selfless act.
****************************
>> and precisely because nagging them over and over each and everytime we went out of the house was not effective.
************
i agree whole heartedly. If what i am doing repeatedly is
ineffective and i continue to repeat the same action expecting
different results i refer to this as insanity. So as the adult, i
can choose to take rational and responsible action by changing my
behavior and/or changing my expectations. It is my responsibility as
the parent to be mindful of what works best for my child. In our
house, coersion is not productive. Negative consequences do not build
positive self esteem. quite the contrary.
Lisa Heyman
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: TheLerews@...
The intention is not to be cruel but as a different approach to
helping them see the
importance of getting ourselves ready to go out in more functional way
for
everybody- and precisely because nagging them over and over each and
every time
we went out of the house was not effective.
-=-==-
To a small child, *intent* doesn't enter ino it though. They really
don't *see* the importance of getting ready to go.
And if mom's "nagging them over and over each and every time." then
they aren't nearly ready to see that importance.
-=-=-=-=--=
Sometimes the priority is being someplace and being there on time.
If I
have one sick infant in need of a doctor's attention, and two other
children
over the age of 7 who are feeling well and are capable of understanding
that "
baby needs to go to the doctor. We need to leave the house in 30
minutes to
bring the baby to the doctor so please choose the toy you would like to
bring
along if any. This is not an unrealistic expectation, and there is no
misunderstanding the request.
=-=-=-=-
Children over seven? I though we were talking about a four year old.
Most children over seven/eight DO have that concept.
And yet they aren't complying? Could there be another explanation?
-=-=-=-=-
Punishment or consequence? The reality is that there are always
consequences
(be they positive or negative) to our actions.
-=-=-=-=-
Punishment.
Indeed there are consequences; but when they are arbitrarily imposed by
the parent, they aren't natural---and children can see through that. It
can make the children sneaky and unreliable.
-=-=-=-=-
If a child is kindly reminded
that the family is going to an appointment and asked if they would like
to take
along a toy- if that child says "yes" and mother says- "ok we will be
leaving
soon , please go ahead and select a toy so we can leave the house"-
child says
"ok"- then proceeds to get involved in another activity and forgets to
choose a
toy (mind you, this is not a single episode, occurs repeatedly), then
another
way of learning is needed.
-=-==-
Well, in this case, the mom is not seeing that the child is not quite
ready for this responsibility. Get the toy. And if it happens
repeatedly, that should be a HUGE clue!
Maybe not "another way of learning," but time and modelling is what's
needed.
-=-=-=-=-
Unfortunately leaving toys packed in the car does not
do the tricks. Tried and failed.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Why? How?
-=-=-=-=-
There comes a time when I feel my children do
need to understand and respect what the needs are of others in the
family (and
in their world).
-=-=-=-=-
They need to be given/shown that understanding and respect *themselves*
before they can give/show it to others.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: TheLerews@...
The intention is not to be cruel but as a different approach to
helping them see the
importance of getting ourselves ready to go out in more functional way
for
everybody- and precisely because nagging them over and over each and
every time
we went out of the house was not effective.
-=-==-
To a small child, *intent* doesn't enter ino it though. They really
don't *see* the importance of getting ready to go.
And if mom's "nagging them over and over each and every time." then
they aren't nearly ready to see that importance.
-=-=-=-=--=
Sometimes the priority is being someplace and being there on time.
If I
have one sick infant in need of a doctor's attention, and two other
children
over the age of 7 who are feeling well and are capable of understanding
that "
baby needs to go to the doctor. We need to leave the house in 30
minutes to
bring the baby to the doctor so please choose the toy you would like to
bring
along if any. This is not an unrealistic expectation, and there is no
misunderstanding the request.
=-=-=-=-
Children over seven? I though we were talking about a four year old.
Most children over seven/eight DO have that concept.
And yet they aren't complying? Could there be another explanation?
-=-=-=-=-
>>That's punishment. Do it my way or be unhappy - your fault, noarguments, I *told* you to get ready and even how. Ouch.
Punishment or consequence? The reality is that there are always
consequences
(be they positive or negative) to our actions.
-=-=-=-=-
Punishment.
Indeed there are consequences; but when they are arbitrarily imposed by
the parent, they aren't natural---and children can see through that. It
can make the children sneaky and unreliable.
-=-=-=-=-
If a child is kindly reminded
that the family is going to an appointment and asked if they would like
to take
along a toy- if that child says "yes" and mother says- "ok we will be
leaving
soon , please go ahead and select a toy so we can leave the house"-
child says
"ok"- then proceeds to get involved in another activity and forgets to
choose a
toy (mind you, this is not a single episode, occurs repeatedly), then
another
way of learning is needed.
-=-==-
Well, in this case, the mom is not seeing that the child is not quite
ready for this responsibility. Get the toy. And if it happens
repeatedly, that should be a HUGE clue!
Maybe not "another way of learning," but time and modelling is what's
needed.
-=-=-=-=-
Unfortunately leaving toys packed in the car does not
do the tricks. Tried and failed.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Why? How?
-=-=-=-=-
There comes a time when I feel my children do
need to understand and respect what the needs are of others in the
family (and
in their world).
-=-=-=-=-
They need to be given/shown that understanding and respect *themselves*
before they can give/show it to others.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], TheLerews@... wrote:
not for the child. This is exactly the sort of situation - the sort
that I find occurring repeatedly, I mean - where I find it really
really valuble to step back and ask myself what *I* could be doing
differently. What am *I* missing? How can *I* make this easier for
the kid in question?
In the situation described above, I wonder if the problem isn't
getting ready, but lag-time. The child needs to get ready *and* pass
the remaining time before actually leaving. Both my kids (and their
dad!!!) struggle with this, so part of my getting-ready-to-go
planning has to include dealing with this complex in-between time.
forgot to bring his helmet. He wasn't allowed to skate and they had
to come home. That's an hour-and-a-half each way, so going back was
out of the question for the day. We could have looked at the matter
as a lesson in consequences for Rayan, but instead we commiserated
and appologised to Ray for not having helped him remember. Now
George and I double-check that he has all his gear. I suppose you
could say we chose to see the "lesson" as being about team-work. If
we all help each other, everything runs more smoothly.
down into smaller components - its a pretty vast concept. In this
thread, I'd consider the underlying principles to be those of
consideration and mutual assistance. Those are pretty important
principles, to me. They aren't the sorts of things kids learn
from "consequences" though. People learn the value of consideration
by having it shown to them.
My active, boistrous 5yo is amazingly quiet and considerate when I'm
sick. She *wants* to help. She doesn't always know *how* - yesterday
she made me lukewarm tea and a bunch of mustard sandwiches <eeew>
but she certainly goes out of her way trying. I'm getting over the
flu, and she's getting a little tired of hearing "Mommy's still
sick" (I'm getting tired of saying it!) but she's still being as
considerate as a 5yo can possibly be.
My stepson has only lived with consideration for a few months. It
startles him. A couple times he's been on the verge of tears because
of small acts of kindness. He's not learning that there are no
consequences to his actions and he doesn't think his stepmom is a
doormat ;) He's learning the value of consideration from the inside.
We definately have to *ask* him to do things, but he does things for
us willingly and cheerfully, because he sees the value in mutual
assistance.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>If a child is kindly reminded that the family is going to anI agree with this - another way of learning *is* needed, but maybe
>appointment and asked if they would like to take along a toy- if
>that child says "yes" and mother says- "ok we will be leaving
>soon , please go ahead and select a toy so we can leave the house"-
>child says "ok"- then proceeds to get involved in another activity
>and forgets to choose a toy (mind you, this is not a single
>episode, occurs repeatedly), then another way of learning is needed.
not for the child. This is exactly the sort of situation - the sort
that I find occurring repeatedly, I mean - where I find it really
really valuble to step back and ask myself what *I* could be doing
differently. What am *I* missing? How can *I* make this easier for
the kid in question?
In the situation described above, I wonder if the problem isn't
getting ready, but lag-time. The child needs to get ready *and* pass
the remaining time before actually leaving. Both my kids (and their
dad!!!) struggle with this, so part of my getting-ready-to-go
planning has to include dealing with this complex in-between time.
>> A better lesson for the child ...... I know that if I findNot too long ago, George took Rayan (13) to the skatepark and they
>myself in a situation where I am unprepared
>and am uncomfortable as a result ( be that discomfort emotional or
>physical) it helps me to learn that the next time I want to be
>better prepared. Children are certainly capable of the same
>learning experiences.
forgot to bring his helmet. He wasn't allowed to skate and they had
to come home. That's an hour-and-a-half each way, so going back was
out of the question for the day. We could have looked at the matter
as a lesson in consequences for Rayan, but instead we commiserated
and appologised to Ray for not having helped him remember. Now
George and I double-check that he has all his gear. I suppose you
could say we chose to see the "lesson" as being about team-work. If
we all help each other, everything runs more smoothly.
>There comes a time when I feel my children do need to understandI have found it helpful, personally, to break the idea of "respect"
>and respect what the needs are of others in the family (and in
>their world).
down into smaller components - its a pretty vast concept. In this
thread, I'd consider the underlying principles to be those of
consideration and mutual assistance. Those are pretty important
principles, to me. They aren't the sorts of things kids learn
from "consequences" though. People learn the value of consideration
by having it shown to them.
My active, boistrous 5yo is amazingly quiet and considerate when I'm
sick. She *wants* to help. She doesn't always know *how* - yesterday
she made me lukewarm tea and a bunch of mustard sandwiches <eeew>
but she certainly goes out of her way trying. I'm getting over the
flu, and she's getting a little tired of hearing "Mommy's still
sick" (I'm getting tired of saying it!) but she's still being as
considerate as a 5yo can possibly be.
My stepson has only lived with consideration for a few months. It
startles him. A couple times he's been on the verge of tears because
of small acts of kindness. He's not learning that there are no
consequences to his actions and he doesn't think his stepmom is a
doormat ;) He's learning the value of consideration from the inside.
We definately have to *ask* him to do things, but he does things for
us willingly and cheerfully, because he sees the value in mutual
assistance.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
[email protected]
Wow, I seem to be approaching parenting from a very different perspective than many of you (having grown up a 'processed child' with two public school teachers as parents) . I will have to take some time to digest this and ponder your perspectives. I don't have the luxury of being home with the children full-time therefore finding time for all we need and want to do as a family is not always easy. That being the case there are times when I get impatient with the children (and myself) when things seem 'out of control' (for example when we need to be somewhere and things aren't coming together smoothly) . I don't want to feel impatient with them but as someone mentioned, perhaps a different way of looking parenting would be helpful. It definitely changes my perspective if I imagine this could (on any day) be my last day with them.... In some ways I am finding your responses ironic because I'd always thought of myself as very liberal, lenient , free parent. I am one of the few
unschoolers I know in my area. I had concerns that I was not doing enough to maintain parental control of my children (comparing myself of course with those families I come into contact with regularly in the local homeschooling community). I did recently read the book on the Yahoo site reading list (The Unprocessed Child) which I thoroughly enjoyed and am passing along to a homeschooling friend who is thinking of unschooling. Anyhow thanks to all for your input.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: kbcdlovejo@...
-----Original Message-----
From: TheLerews@...
The intention is not to be cruel but as a different approach to
helping them see the
importance of getting ourselves ready to go out in more functional way
for
everybody- and precisely because nagging them over and over each and
every time
we went out of the house was not effective.
-=-==-
To a small child, *intent* doesn't enter ino it though. They really
don't *see* the importance of getting ready to go.
And if mom's "nagging them over and over each and every time." then
they aren't nearly ready to see that importance.
-=-=-=-=--=
Sometimes the priority is being someplace and being there on time.
If I
have one sick infant in need of a doctor's attention, and two other
children
over the age of 7 who are feeling well and are capable of understanding
that "
baby needs to go to the doctor. We need to leave the house in 30
minutes to
bring the baby to the doctor so please choose the toy you would like to
bring
along if any. This is not an unrealistic expectation, and there is no
misunderstanding the request.
=-=-=-=-
Children over seven? I though we were talking about a four year old.
Most children over seven/eight DO have that concept.
And yet they aren't complying? Could there be another explanation?
-=-=-=-=-
Punishment or consequence? The reality is that there are always
consequences
(be they positive or negative) to our actions.
-=-=-=-=-
Punishment.
Indeed there are consequences; but when they are arbitrarily imposed by
the parent, they aren't natural---and children can see through that. It
can make the children sneaky and unreliable.
-=-=-=-=-
If a child is kindly reminded
that the family is going to an appointment and asked if they would like
to take
along a toy- if that child says "yes" and mother says- "ok we will be
leaving
soon , please go ahead and select a toy so we can leave the house"-
child says
"ok"- then proceeds to get involved in another activity and forgets to
choose a
toy (mind you, this is not a single episode, occurs repeatedly), then
another
way of learning is needed.
-=-==-
Well, in this case, the mom is not seeing that the child is not quite
ready for this responsibility. Get the toy. And if it happens
repeatedly, that should be a HUGE clue!
Maybe not "another way of learning," but time and modelling is what's
needed.
-=-=-=-=-
Unfortunately leaving toys packed in the car does not
do the tricks. Tried and failed.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Why? How?
-=-=-=-=-
There comes a time when I feel my children do
need to understand and respect what the needs are of others in the
family (and
in their world).
-=-=-=-=-
They need to be given/shown that understanding and respect *themselves*
before they can give/show it to others.
~Kelly
__________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschoolers I know in my area. I had concerns that I was not doing enough to maintain parental control of my children (comparing myself of course with those families I come into contact with regularly in the local homeschooling community). I did recently read the book on the Yahoo site reading list (The Unprocessed Child) which I thoroughly enjoyed and am passing along to a homeschooling friend who is thinking of unschooling. Anyhow thanks to all for your input.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: kbcdlovejo@...
-----Original Message-----
From: TheLerews@...
The intention is not to be cruel but as a different approach to
helping them see the
importance of getting ourselves ready to go out in more functional way
for
everybody- and precisely because nagging them over and over each and
every time
we went out of the house was not effective.
-=-==-
To a small child, *intent* doesn't enter ino it though. They really
don't *see* the importance of getting ready to go.
And if mom's "nagging them over and over each and every time." then
they aren't nearly ready to see that importance.
-=-=-=-=--=
Sometimes the priority is being someplace and being there on time.
If I
have one sick infant in need of a doctor's attention, and two other
children
over the age of 7 who are feeling well and are capable of understanding
that "
baby needs to go to the doctor. We need to leave the house in 30
minutes to
bring the baby to the doctor so please choose the toy you would like to
bring
along if any. This is not an unrealistic expectation, and there is no
misunderstanding the request.
=-=-=-=-
Children over seven? I though we were talking about a four year old.
Most children over seven/eight DO have that concept.
And yet they aren't complying? Could there be another explanation?
-=-=-=-=-
>>That's punishment. Do it my way or be unhappy - your fault, noarguments, I *told* you to get ready and even how. Ouch.
Punishment or consequence? The reality is that there are always
consequences
(be they positive or negative) to our actions.
-=-=-=-=-
Punishment.
Indeed there are consequences; but when they are arbitrarily imposed by
the parent, they aren't natural---and children can see through that. It
can make the children sneaky and unreliable.
-=-=-=-=-
If a child is kindly reminded
that the family is going to an appointment and asked if they would like
to take
along a toy- if that child says "yes" and mother says- "ok we will be
leaving
soon , please go ahead and select a toy so we can leave the house"-
child says
"ok"- then proceeds to get involved in another activity and forgets to
choose a
toy (mind you, this is not a single episode, occurs repeatedly), then
another
way of learning is needed.
-=-==-
Well, in this case, the mom is not seeing that the child is not quite
ready for this responsibility. Get the toy. And if it happens
repeatedly, that should be a HUGE clue!
Maybe not "another way of learning," but time and modelling is what's
needed.
-=-=-=-=-
Unfortunately leaving toys packed in the car does not
do the tricks. Tried and failed.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Why? How?
-=-=-=-=-
There comes a time when I feel my children do
need to understand and respect what the needs are of others in the
family (and
in their world).
-=-=-=-=-
They need to be given/shown that understanding and respect *themselves*
before they can give/show it to others.
~Kelly
__________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Greenspan
You can say yes and state your parameters. Example: "Yes, you may have the
toy after mom's meeting."
Best,
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
toy after mom's meeting."
Best,
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Greenspan
I have also found it best to take mommy time when I want to focus on my
priorities, and ask dad to do child care while I focus on my tasks.
Best of health,
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
priorities, and ask dad to do child care while I focus on my tasks.
Best of health,
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: TheLerews@...
Wow, I seem to be approaching parenting from a very different
perspective than
many of you (having grown up a 'processed child' with two public school
teachers
as parents) .
-=-=-=-
I'd venture to say that almost (if not all) of us grew up
"processed"---very traditionally! We've just decided to change how *we*
parent. By changing our own perspective, we can *start* to make it
easier for our children to be better parents too. Changing is hard.
Shedding that baggage is hard. My children already have less baggage to
unload.
-=-=-=-=-
I will have to take some time to digest this and ponder your
perspectives.
-=-=-=-
Good---but don't take *too* much time! Your kids aren't getting any
younger! <bwg>
-=-=-=-=-
That being the case there are times when I get impatient with the
children (and myself) when things seem 'out of control' (for example
when we
need to be somewhere and things aren't coming together smoothly) . I
don't want
to feel impatient with them but as someone mentioned, perhaps a
different way of
looking parenting would be helpful.
-=-=-=-=-
We all feel that way. But if *you* are 35---with 35 years of
experience---can you imagine how a five year old could feel just a
*bit* more overwhelmed than *you*?? I mean: he's had only four years of
experience---yet we get angry and impatient when he can't figure out
how to deal wit the situation! Stopping and thinking about how *HE* is
feeling can make all the difference!
-=-=-=-=-
It definitely changes my perspective if I
imagine this could (on any day) be my last day with them....
-=-=-=-
And as much as we'd all like to think it won't happen to us, there are
two unschooling moms (regular readers/posters) who each lost an
eight-year-old child. It *can* and *does* happen.
When I'm about to lose it, if I can stop, breathe, and think of what it
would be like without him, I can recenter myself and deal with the
situation rationally. Makes all the difference in my world.
-=-=-=-
In some ways I am finding your responses ironic because I'd always
thought of myself as very
liberal, lenient , free parent.
-=-=-=-
Many of us did. <g>
-=-=-=-=-
I am one of the few unschoolers I know in my area.
-=-=-=
Me too.
-=-=-=-=-
I had concerns that I was not doing enough to
maintain parental control of my children (comparing myself of course
with those
families I come into contact with regularly in the local homeschooling
community).
-=-=-=-
yeah---but if it's about *control*, you've come to the wrong place. <g>
We're not about control of our kids.
I'd suggest staying away from controlling parents until you're
comfortable where you are on your own journey. After you 'get" it,
thenm you probably won't *want* to be around those parents any more <g>
I travel to see my unschooling/gentle, mindful family friends.
Sometimes 4-5 trips. But it's worth it.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I did recently read the book on the Yahoo site reading list (The
Unprocessed Child) which I thoroughly enjoyed and am passing along to a
homeschooling friend who is thinking of unschooling. Anyhow thanks to
all for
your input.
-=-=-=-
Valerie's wonderful!
You would also very much enjoy Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child, An
Unschooled Life.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: TheLerews@...
Wow, I seem to be approaching parenting from a very different
perspective than
many of you (having grown up a 'processed child' with two public school
teachers
as parents) .
-=-=-=-
I'd venture to say that almost (if not all) of us grew up
"processed"---very traditionally! We've just decided to change how *we*
parent. By changing our own perspective, we can *start* to make it
easier for our children to be better parents too. Changing is hard.
Shedding that baggage is hard. My children already have less baggage to
unload.
-=-=-=-=-
I will have to take some time to digest this and ponder your
perspectives.
-=-=-=-
Good---but don't take *too* much time! Your kids aren't getting any
younger! <bwg>
-=-=-=-=-
That being the case there are times when I get impatient with the
children (and myself) when things seem 'out of control' (for example
when we
need to be somewhere and things aren't coming together smoothly) . I
don't want
to feel impatient with them but as someone mentioned, perhaps a
different way of
looking parenting would be helpful.
-=-=-=-=-
We all feel that way. But if *you* are 35---with 35 years of
experience---can you imagine how a five year old could feel just a
*bit* more overwhelmed than *you*?? I mean: he's had only four years of
experience---yet we get angry and impatient when he can't figure out
how to deal wit the situation! Stopping and thinking about how *HE* is
feeling can make all the difference!
-=-=-=-=-
It definitely changes my perspective if I
imagine this could (on any day) be my last day with them....
-=-=-=-
And as much as we'd all like to think it won't happen to us, there are
two unschooling moms (regular readers/posters) who each lost an
eight-year-old child. It *can* and *does* happen.
When I'm about to lose it, if I can stop, breathe, and think of what it
would be like without him, I can recenter myself and deal with the
situation rationally. Makes all the difference in my world.
-=-=-=-
In some ways I am finding your responses ironic because I'd always
thought of myself as very
liberal, lenient , free parent.
-=-=-=-
Many of us did. <g>
-=-=-=-=-
I am one of the few unschoolers I know in my area.
-=-=-=
Me too.
-=-=-=-=-
I had concerns that I was not doing enough to
maintain parental control of my children (comparing myself of course
with those
families I come into contact with regularly in the local homeschooling
community).
-=-=-=-
yeah---but if it's about *control*, you've come to the wrong place. <g>
We're not about control of our kids.
I'd suggest staying away from controlling parents until you're
comfortable where you are on your own journey. After you 'get" it,
thenm you probably won't *want* to be around those parents any more <g>
I travel to see my unschooling/gentle, mindful family friends.
Sometimes 4-5 trips. But it's worth it.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I did recently read the book on the Yahoo site reading list (The
Unprocessed Child) which I thoroughly enjoyed and am passing along to a
homeschooling friend who is thinking of unschooling. Anyhow thanks to
all for
your input.
-=-=-=-
Valerie's wonderful!
You would also very much enjoy Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child, An
Unschooled Life.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@aol.
I travel to see my unschooling/gentle, mindful family friends.
Sometimes 4-5 trips. But it's worth it.
-=-=-
Hmmm---that should have been "4-5 HOUR trips" <g>
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: kbcdlovejo@aol.
I travel to see my unschooling/gentle, mindful family friends.
Sometimes 4-5 trips. But it's worth it.
-=-=-
Hmmm---that should have been "4-5 HOUR trips" <g>
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 21, 2007, at 12:35 PM, TheLerews@... wrote:
punishment rather than a consequence.
more accepting of waiting. It's when they feel they have to compete
with others for a limited quantity, when they feel that unless
they're tended to immediately they're likely to be forgotten that
they will continue to fight for what they need.
It really doesn't help clarity of thinking to lump emergencies in
with normal getting the kids out of the house. *If* you do experience
a lot of emergencies, then in a way they become normal and you can
think ahead and plan better: having the typical things that kids will
need ready and waiting to go.
What if your husband liked to arrive when he planned even when time
wasn't an issue. What if you were going to his family's house and he
said he'd be there at 3. What if, a few minutes into a two hour trip,
in the flurry of getting kids ready, you realized you'd forgotten
your knitting (or something that made a 2 hour trip enjoyable for
you) and he said no, he was sorry he wanted to be there at 3 not
3:05, so he wouldn't turn around. You had to learn to remember.
The situation is different *and yet* from children's point of view
it's exactly the same. They *can't* see the difference between the
scenarios until they're older. So until they're older you're coming
across to them as rigid rather than instructive. While your practice
might actually make the kids remember, it won't be a pleasant
association they have with remembering. It will call of memories of
anger and resentment more than the boredom.
What if, instead, he asked before you walked out, if you had your
knitting? What if, before you were ready, he asked if there was
anything he could do for you? What if *he* remembered your knitting
and had it all packed for you?
Which person would you want to not inconvenience more? Which would
you want to go out of your way to be nice to?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Punishment or consequence? The reality is that there are alwaysIf the child knows you can make a different choice then it's
> consequences (be they positive or negative) to our actions. If a
> child is kindly reminded that the family is going to an appointment
> and asked if they would like to take along a toy- if that child
> says "yes" and mother says- "ok we will be leaving soon ...
punishment rather than a consequence.
> When mommy is helping her sick child throw-up the video game willAnd when children's needs are treated with respect, then they are
> have to wait .
more accepting of waiting. It's when they feel they have to compete
with others for a limited quantity, when they feel that unless
they're tended to immediately they're likely to be forgotten that
they will continue to fight for what they need.
It really doesn't help clarity of thinking to lump emergencies in
with normal getting the kids out of the house. *If* you do experience
a lot of emergencies, then in a way they become normal and you can
think ahead and plan better: having the typical things that kids will
need ready and waiting to go.
What if your husband liked to arrive when he planned even when time
wasn't an issue. What if you were going to his family's house and he
said he'd be there at 3. What if, a few minutes into a two hour trip,
in the flurry of getting kids ready, you realized you'd forgotten
your knitting (or something that made a 2 hour trip enjoyable for
you) and he said no, he was sorry he wanted to be there at 3 not
3:05, so he wouldn't turn around. You had to learn to remember.
The situation is different *and yet* from children's point of view
it's exactly the same. They *can't* see the difference between the
scenarios until they're older. So until they're older you're coming
across to them as rigid rather than instructive. While your practice
might actually make the kids remember, it won't be a pleasant
association they have with remembering. It will call of memories of
anger and resentment more than the boredom.
What if, instead, he asked before you walked out, if you had your
knitting? What if, before you were ready, he asked if there was
anything he could do for you? What if *he* remembered your knitting
and had it all packed for you?
Which person would you want to not inconvenience more? Which would
you want to go out of your way to be nice to?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "Lisa" <Lmanathome@...>
wrote:
independent. One of her first words was "Self!" I've gotten pretty
comfortable with communicating with her and figuring out her needs,
even when she's not really able to express them directly.
My stepson is a *very* different person. He's much, much more verbal
and social - he doesn't like doing things by himself for the most
part, but his interests are really different from mine. So I've
been "stretching" myself in a lot of different ways since he moved
in (back in Nov) trying to figure out how to parent such a different
kid.
If I were to look at Ray through the lens of Morgan, I'd be saying a
lot of things like: "I showed you this once already, why can't you
get it? you're 13 for pete's sake!" But Ray's not Mo, doesn't learn
the way Mo learns, and doesn't want the things she wants. He's a
different person with really different needs. In a way, I'm grateful
for that. I think we'd all be having a harder time in terms of
expectations if Ray were more like Mo.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
wrote:
>> So the question i have is who is to determine what age is theright
> age for understanding a request? We all learn different lessonsat
> different ages. we all interpret requests in different ways. Thehow
> way i communicate to one child in my home is very different than
> i might communicate to another. They are different people and ihave
> come to know that requests need to be addressed differently if iwant
> them to be understood.This is sooooo true! My 5yo is very visual and tends to be very
independent. One of her first words was "Self!" I've gotten pretty
comfortable with communicating with her and figuring out her needs,
even when she's not really able to express them directly.
My stepson is a *very* different person. He's much, much more verbal
and social - he doesn't like doing things by himself for the most
part, but his interests are really different from mine. So I've
been "stretching" myself in a lot of different ways since he moved
in (back in Nov) trying to figure out how to parent such a different
kid.
If I were to look at Ray through the lens of Morgan, I'd be saying a
lot of things like: "I showed you this once already, why can't you
get it? you're 13 for pete's sake!" But Ray's not Mo, doesn't learn
the way Mo learns, and doesn't want the things she wants. He's a
different person with really different needs. In a way, I'm grateful
for that. I think we'd all be having a harder time in terms of
expectations if Ray were more like Mo.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
ray
I'll agree with Deborah on this one. You have a commitment. Occasionally
(some more than others) adults have commitments other than their
children. Children need to respect and understand this - they too will
one day have commitments.
My guess is that knowing you had such an important day, you focused on
yourself rather than your child, child noticed the difference, and so
did what he could to get the attention he is accustomed to back ala "if
you give a mouse a cookie". Did you tell your child how important this
day was to you, how excited you were about it, that you really wanted to
be on-time, and could he help you get ready? Perhaps next time he will
pack your bag, rather than you packing his.
I am currently reading John Holt/Patrick Farenga Teach Your Own. You
would not believe how many times Holt talks about the importance of
children being exposed to adults whose primary work is *not* taking care
of kids. It is not ever too early for children to understand there is a
world outside of themselves, and that understanding does not in any way
spoil their childhood. Saying "yes" to kids is not about giving them
everything they want just because they want it, but rather about
enabling to learn things *for themselves*.
I hope that is both specific and general ;-)
Best wishes,
Ray
--- In [email protected], "Deborah Greenspan"
<dgreens1@...> wrote:
(some more than others) adults have commitments other than their
children. Children need to respect and understand this - they too will
one day have commitments.
My guess is that knowing you had such an important day, you focused on
yourself rather than your child, child noticed the difference, and so
did what he could to get the attention he is accustomed to back ala "if
you give a mouse a cookie". Did you tell your child how important this
day was to you, how excited you were about it, that you really wanted to
be on-time, and could he help you get ready? Perhaps next time he will
pack your bag, rather than you packing his.
I am currently reading John Holt/Patrick Farenga Teach Your Own. You
would not believe how many times Holt talks about the importance of
children being exposed to adults whose primary work is *not* taking care
of kids. It is not ever too early for children to understand there is a
world outside of themselves, and that understanding does not in any way
spoil their childhood. Saying "yes" to kids is not about giving them
everything they want just because they want it, but rather about
enabling to learn things *for themselves*.
I hope that is both specific and general ;-)
Best wishes,
Ray
--- In [email protected], "Deborah Greenspan"
<dgreens1@...> wrote:
>the
> You can say yes and state your parameters. Example: "Yes, you may have
> toy after mom's meeting."[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Best,
>
> Deborah
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Pamela Sorooshian
> In some ways I am finding your responses ironic because I'd alwaysThat you're that way already might make this further step even more
> thought of myself as very
> liberal, lenient , free parent.
possible for you. I was a very easy-going parent, too, even when my
oldest daughter was in school. When I ran into unschooling, it didn't
take very long for me to realize that it was a logical extension of
what I already believed about learning and parenting.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> In some ways I am finding your responses ironic because I'd alwaysThat you're that way already might make this further step even more
> thought of myself as very
> liberal, lenient , free parent.
possible for you. I was a very easy-going parent, too, even when my
oldest daughter was in school. When I ran into unschooling, it didn't
take very long for me to realize that it was a logical extension of
what I already believed about learning and parenting.
-pam
Thanks :-) That is encouraging! It seems that, rather than compartmentalizing my existing philosophies of 'parenting' and 'learning/schooling', I should be thinking of the unschooling journey as an entire 'lifestyle philisophy'. Well, I can see I still have some learning to do myself. :-)
Will continue to read and realize. Thanks again
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamela6000
I am still new to this type of parenting and relapse back now and
then. I have to say thought that I now think about these so
called "natural consequences" often. I have a 6 yr old that is
difficult. When I occasionally ask her to do something, that I know
she understands is important, and just refuses to do it almost
always , well, what is the "natural consequence" to that?
For example, the other day my kids got out the flour and water on
threw it all over the counter (and floor) I did not get mad ...as I
knew they wanted to make play dough. I cleaned it up a bit and added
some salt. ..and just let them do their thing. I saved the dough as
well for more play later. TOday, I needed to be on the phone with
some important calls for a bit. I told my dds that I need some quiet
time, before I called. I then saw my 6 yr old take out the salt
dough and they were becoming loud. I muted the phone and explained
again about my need for some quiet phone time. (this rarely ever
works by the way) then my 6 yr old went and got a large container of
very soapy water and I saw her about to throw the dough into it. she
did this the day before and I knew the 2 of them would start
throwing it around and making a huge mess, and be very loud. I muted
the phone AGAIN ,and gave her a choice of playing with only the
water with the funnel, or only the dough, UNTIL I was off the phone
and then we could do it outside. Two seconds later...in went the
dough into the soapy water and the loud mess began....I could not
hear on the phone. The caller said my kids sound very wild! I had to
end the call. I was very angry. She understood everything perfectly
well! She tests me all the time to see if she can do exactly what I
respectfully ask her to wait on..etc etc. HOw would all of you
UNSCHOOLERS handled this...because I do not see this approach
working in all circumstances. To me, if she cannot respectfully
carry out an occasional important request, then the consequence
should be ..that neither will I with her For example I may just
say, "no, I will not take you to the park right now, as I now have
this huge mess to clean,(they rarely will help clean up) when I
asked you to wait until it was outside! And secondly I need to call
back the person I was speaking with , when they could not hear me on
the phone!"
pam
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
then. I have to say thought that I now think about these so
called "natural consequences" often. I have a 6 yr old that is
difficult. When I occasionally ask her to do something, that I know
she understands is important, and just refuses to do it almost
always , well, what is the "natural consequence" to that?
For example, the other day my kids got out the flour and water on
threw it all over the counter (and floor) I did not get mad ...as I
knew they wanted to make play dough. I cleaned it up a bit and added
some salt. ..and just let them do their thing. I saved the dough as
well for more play later. TOday, I needed to be on the phone with
some important calls for a bit. I told my dds that I need some quiet
time, before I called. I then saw my 6 yr old take out the salt
dough and they were becoming loud. I muted the phone and explained
again about my need for some quiet phone time. (this rarely ever
works by the way) then my 6 yr old went and got a large container of
very soapy water and I saw her about to throw the dough into it. she
did this the day before and I knew the 2 of them would start
throwing it around and making a huge mess, and be very loud. I muted
the phone AGAIN ,and gave her a choice of playing with only the
water with the funnel, or only the dough, UNTIL I was off the phone
and then we could do it outside. Two seconds later...in went the
dough into the soapy water and the loud mess began....I could not
hear on the phone. The caller said my kids sound very wild! I had to
end the call. I was very angry. She understood everything perfectly
well! She tests me all the time to see if she can do exactly what I
respectfully ask her to wait on..etc etc. HOw would all of you
UNSCHOOLERS handled this...because I do not see this approach
working in all circumstances. To me, if she cannot respectfully
carry out an occasional important request, then the consequence
should be ..that neither will I with her For example I may just
say, "no, I will not take you to the park right now, as I now have
this huge mess to clean,(they rarely will help clean up) when I
asked you to wait until it was outside! And secondly I need to call
back the person I was speaking with , when they could not hear me on
the phone!"
pam
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>The
> --- In [email protected], "Lisa" <Lmanathome@>
> wrote:
> >> So the question i have is who is to determine what age is the
> right
> > age for understanding a request? We all learn different lessons
> at
> > different ages. we all interpret requests in different ways.
> > way i communicate to one child in my home is very different thanneeds,
> how
> > i might communicate to another. They are different people and i
> have
> > come to know that requests need to be addressed differently if i
> want
> > them to be understood.
>
> This is sooooo true! My 5yo is very visual and tends to be very
> independent. One of her first words was "Self!" I've gotten pretty
> comfortable with communicating with her and figuring out her
> even when she's not really able to express them directly.verbal
>
> My stepson is a *very* different person. He's much, much more
> and social - he doesn't like doing things by himself for the mostdifferent
> part, but his interests are really different from mine. So I've
> been "stretching" myself in a lot of different ways since he moved
> in (back in Nov) trying to figure out how to parent such a
> kid.a
>
> If I were to look at Ray through the lens of Morgan, I'd be saying
> lot of things like: "I showed you this once already, why can't youlearn
> get it? you're 13 for pete's sake!" But Ray's not Mo, doesn't
> the way Mo learns, and doesn't want the things she wants. He's agrateful
> different person with really different needs. In a way, I'm
> for that. I think we'd all be having a harder time in terms of
> expectations if Ray were more like Mo.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>
Katharine Wise
Ray: My guess is that knowing you had such an important day, you focused on
yourself rather than your child, child noticed the difference, and so
did what he could to get the attention he is accustomed to back ala "if
you give a mouse a cookie".
ME: Well, to be honest, I think he simply didn't want to go. I was subbing for his sunday school teacher (I normally go to his class with him anyway because he doesn't want me to leave). But he really doesn't want to go at all. I know that's a whole 'nother bag of worms. Frankly, I insist we go because dh is the pastor, it's a small, struggling church, and if we didn't...
Ray: I am currently reading John Holt/Patrick Farenga Teach Your Own. You
would not believe how many times Holt talks about the importance of
children being exposed to adults whose primary work is *not* taking care
of kids. It is not ever too early for children to understand there is a
world outside of themselves, and that understanding does not in any way
spoil their childhood.
ME: Actually, I do believe it:-) And others too. I think the first thing I read that said that was The Continuum Concept, and I've struggled with it ever since. I like the idea of children being involved in the world of meaningful, working adults. I know an organic farming, homeschooling family and often think what a wonderful life for the kids that is -- lots of interesting help and visitors, adults engaged in real (and interesting to kids too -- not typing at a computer) work, lots of space to explore and play outside. But I taught before I had kids, not a world I could bring them into or want to at this point, though I might have then:-) I don't really know how to do this in our age-segregated culture. Most of us have to choose between continuing what we did before having children, or being with our children.
Katharine
____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
yourself rather than your child, child noticed the difference, and so
did what he could to get the attention he is accustomed to back ala "if
you give a mouse a cookie".
ME: Well, to be honest, I think he simply didn't want to go. I was subbing for his sunday school teacher (I normally go to his class with him anyway because he doesn't want me to leave). But he really doesn't want to go at all. I know that's a whole 'nother bag of worms. Frankly, I insist we go because dh is the pastor, it's a small, struggling church, and if we didn't...
Ray: I am currently reading John Holt/Patrick Farenga Teach Your Own. You
would not believe how many times Holt talks about the importance of
children being exposed to adults whose primary work is *not* taking care
of kids. It is not ever too early for children to understand there is a
world outside of themselves, and that understanding does not in any way
spoil their childhood.
ME: Actually, I do believe it:-) And others too. I think the first thing I read that said that was The Continuum Concept, and I've struggled with it ever since. I like the idea of children being involved in the world of meaningful, working adults. I know an organic farming, homeschooling family and often think what a wonderful life for the kids that is -- lots of interesting help and visitors, adults engaged in real (and interesting to kids too -- not typing at a computer) work, lots of space to explore and play outside. But I taught before I had kids, not a world I could bring them into or want to at this point, though I might have then:-) I don't really know how to do this in our age-segregated culture. Most of us have to choose between continuing what we did before having children, or being with our children.
Katharine
____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "pamela6000"
<pamela6000@...> wrote:
(child is "difficult"), whereas I would see it as a communications
and/or logistics issue. Living with other people can be terribly
inconvenient. Trying to communicate in a group of people with
different levels of energy and differnt needs is challenging.
phone, in particular, I work to get my 5yo set up with a project
that she can be totally immersed in *before* I get on the phone
*and* I explain that I'm going to be mostly unavailable for X amount
of time. If its really important, I have a back-up plan.
If I don't have the luxury of preplanning, though (more the norm,
for me), I may have to grab something fast off a shelf, offer to
call back in 5min, or, in the incident above, I'd have said to
myself "I'll deal with the mess later, at least she found a project"
and walked far enough away from the delighted squeals to be able to
hear the phone. Its just a mess.
or working on your communication skills, or your relationship with
your dd outside of these kinds of moments, or your expectations wrt
the patience and emphathy of six year olds.
You have a whole bunch of skills she doesn't have yet - the ability
to see a bigger picture, look at situations from another
perspective, and make concious decisions to change the way you do
things in light of that. Maybe you grew up in a household where the
adults didn't do those things, so you are struggling to learn them
*now* - but you *can* learn them. Choosing to learn better parenting
skills doesn't make someone a doormat.
Lashing out in frustration isn't going to help you to communicate
with your kids, its going to throw up walls *preventing*
communication. The consequence of your lack of proactive parenting
is that you are angry and frustrated. Its OK to express that to your
kids! Its not okay to blame them for it. They are just kids being
kids.
in the ether more important than a Majestic Science Experiment?
Flour, water, salt and soap??? Ooooohhhh ahhhhhhhhh..... the
chemistry, the physics, the art of it all... all *you* were doing
was talking. She was inventing the world.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
<pamela6000@...> wrote:
>know
> I am still new to this type of parenting and relapse back now and
> then. I have to say thought that I now think about these so
> called "natural consequences" often. I have a 6 yr old that is
> difficult. When I occasionally ask her to do something, that I
> she understands is important, and just refuses to do it almostIt sounds to me as though you are seeing this as a control issue
> always , well, what is the "natural consequence" to that?
(child is "difficult"), whereas I would see it as a communications
and/or logistics issue. Living with other people can be terribly
inconvenient. Trying to communicate in a group of people with
different levels of energy and differnt needs is challenging.
> TOday, I needed to be on the phone withquiet
> some important calls for a bit. I told my dds that I need some
> time, before I called. I then saw my 6 yr old take out the saltTo start with, if I know ahead of time that I'm going to be on the
> dough and they were becoming loud.
phone, in particular, I work to get my 5yo set up with a project
that she can be totally immersed in *before* I get on the phone
*and* I explain that I'm going to be mostly unavailable for X amount
of time. If its really important, I have a back-up plan.
If I don't have the luxury of preplanning, though (more the norm,
for me), I may have to grab something fast off a shelf, offer to
call back in 5min, or, in the incident above, I'd have said to
myself "I'll deal with the mess later, at least she found a project"
and walked far enough away from the delighted squeals to be able to
hear the phone. Its just a mess.
>I muted the phone and explainedIf it doesn't work, you need a new strategy - maybe better planning,
> again about my need for some quiet phone time. (this rarely ever
> works by the way)
or working on your communication skills, or your relationship with
your dd outside of these kinds of moments, or your expectations wrt
the patience and emphathy of six year olds.
You have a whole bunch of skills she doesn't have yet - the ability
to see a bigger picture, look at situations from another
perspective, and make concious decisions to change the way you do
things in light of that. Maybe you grew up in a household where the
adults didn't do those things, so you are struggling to learn them
*now* - but you *can* learn them. Choosing to learn better parenting
skills doesn't make someone a doormat.
> then the consequenceYou sound really frustrated. Take a deep breath and step back.
> should be ..that neither will I with her For example I may just
> say, "no, I will not take you to the park right now, as I now have
> this huge mess to clean,(they rarely will help clean up) when I
> asked you to wait until it was outside!
Lashing out in frustration isn't going to help you to communicate
with your kids, its going to throw up walls *preventing*
communication. The consequence of your lack of proactive parenting
is that you are angry and frustrated. Its OK to express that to your
kids! Its not okay to blame them for it. They are just kids being
kids.
> To me, if she cannot respectfullyThink about it from her pov - why is talking to some imaginary voice
> carry out an occasional important request
in the ether more important than a Majestic Science Experiment?
Flour, water, salt and soap??? Ooooohhhh ahhhhhhhhh..... the
chemistry, the physics, the art of it all... all *you* were doing
was talking. She was inventing the world.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 22, 2007, at 11:16 PM, ray wrote:
the thoughts around to knowing and trusting that children will be
able to respect others needs when they're raised in an atmosphere of
respect *and* when they are developmentally able.
If *we* decide, for whatever reason, that they are able and expect it
of them, we set them up to fail *and* set ourselves up for
frustration when they fail to live up to expectations.
The easiest way to avoid that is to plan around them not yet having
the skills. (Or not consistently having the skills.) So when they
actually do do something respectful, it feels like a gift they're
giving us. :-)
part of the solution rather than turning the child into the problem.
But if someone is looking for a single technique that will make kids
understand how important Mommy's needs are, it just isn't out
there! ;-) Long term respect of needs that we don't understand will
-- as children are developmentally able -- get us respect for our
needs that the child doesn't understand.
To get respect for needs a child doesn't understand, we need to model
that for them. But it's likely to fail if we're respecting them with
the expectation of them respecting us. It works a lot better to
respect their needs because it's a nice thing to do for someone you
love.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> OccasionallyI think it's more helpful in terms of building relationships to turn
> (some more than others) adults have commitments other than their
> children. Children need to respect and understand this
the thoughts around to knowing and trusting that children will be
able to respect others needs when they're raised in an atmosphere of
respect *and* when they are developmentally able.
If *we* decide, for whatever reason, that they are able and expect it
of them, we set them up to fail *and* set ourselves up for
frustration when they fail to live up to expectations.
The easiest way to avoid that is to plan around them not yet having
the skills. (Or not consistently having the skills.) So when they
actually do do something respectful, it feels like a gift they're
giving us. :-)
> Did you tell your child how important thisI think this can be an effective strategy: helping the child feel a
> day was to you, how excited you were about it, that you really
> wanted to
> be on-time, and could he help you get ready? Perhaps next time he will
> pack your bag, rather than you packing his.
part of the solution rather than turning the child into the problem.
But if someone is looking for a single technique that will make kids
understand how important Mommy's needs are, it just isn't out
there! ;-) Long term respect of needs that we don't understand will
-- as children are developmentally able -- get us respect for our
needs that the child doesn't understand.
To get respect for needs a child doesn't understand, we need to model
that for them. But it's likely to fail if we're respecting them with
the expectation of them respecting us. It works a lot better to
respect their needs because it's a nice thing to do for someone you
love.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 23, 2007, at 10:43 PM, pamela6000 wrote:
them, you got frustrated.
There's a huge gap between understanding something and being able to
control your emotions and reactions and needs. They understand the
words "This is important," but they aren't capable of dealing with
the emotions that come up in the meantime -- or even the emotions of
feeling that you're out of touch!
Their *actions* are telling you something loud and clear and you want
to not hear it because it's more convenient if they can play quietly
for a period of time when you need them to. In 11 years -- which will
pass faster than you think it will -- your 6 yo will be gone from the
house and you'll have loads of time for "important phone calls".
If you plan on them needing you, you're not going to be
disappointed. ;-) As Meredith suggested, build that into your plans.
Help them find something to do if you know ahead of time that a phone
call is coming. Expect that they'll need you.
Right now you're in a place where you expect them to walk but they
keep showing you that they aren't ready and you're getting frustrated
that they can't and looking for ways to make them walk. The
expectations are unreasonable. See who they are right now rather than
looking at them through lenses of expectations.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> TOday, I needed to be on the phone withThe expectations were unreasonable and since they couldn't live up to
> some important calls for a bit. I told my dds that I need some quiet
> time, before I called.
them, you got frustrated.
There's a huge gap between understanding something and being able to
control your emotions and reactions and needs. They understand the
words "This is important," but they aren't capable of dealing with
the emotions that come up in the meantime -- or even the emotions of
feeling that you're out of touch!
Their *actions* are telling you something loud and clear and you want
to not hear it because it's more convenient if they can play quietly
for a period of time when you need them to. In 11 years -- which will
pass faster than you think it will -- your 6 yo will be gone from the
house and you'll have loads of time for "important phone calls".
If you plan on them needing you, you're not going to be
disappointed. ;-) As Meredith suggested, build that into your plans.
Help them find something to do if you know ahead of time that a phone
call is coming. Expect that they'll need you.
Right now you're in a place where you expect them to walk but they
keep showing you that they aren't ready and you're getting frustrated
that they can't and looking for ways to make them walk. The
expectations are unreasonable. See who they are right now rather than
looking at them through lenses of expectations.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]