please challenge my assumptions
[email protected]
Hi all
We are in the middle of something wonderful for ds (4.5yo). I want to make
it even more joyful if possible, so I'd like to get feedback on where (if at
all) I am falling back on schooling notions and how to push this even further in
the direction of joyful learning.
My sis habitually mails me the Sunday crossword puzzle from my old hometown
newspaper. Ds has shown interest in the past and wanted to put letters in the
squares, so this time I asked if he'd like me to make him his own crossword
and he could do his while I did mine. He was thrilled with this suggestion. I
drew pictures for clues and used only phonetic words (more on this). He had a
blast and I wound up making about 10 of these, at his insistence, throughout
the day (& had to promise to make one for him to wake up to in the morning).
Needless to say I got little chance to do my own puzzle!
We worked them out together. He usually got the picture clues right away,
then we would puzzle out how the word might be spelled by sounding it out. I
did it that way because he was given a "workbook" (not by me) that he *loved*
(to my surprise). There was a lot of "insert the middle letter" of 3-letter
phonetic-type words in there. Also, building on that, I got him some Bob books
(the first ones are completely phonetic) which he has from time to time been
passionate about (and then leaves for weeks and that is okay with me). Anyway,
I was aware that the sounding out part was (1) fun for both of us (I have such
a passion for words and sounds that I'm actually fascinated by sounding out
b-u-s) AND (2) seemed pretty "schoolish." When dh came home and was coopted
into this, I noticed that he would simply tell ds how to spell the word once ds
figured out the picture-clue. Ds did not object to this. So, though he
seemed to have fun doing the sounding out (just as another part of the game of
figuring the whole thing out), he didn't care if that part wasn't there either.
(By the way, dh is a notoriously poor speller and I used to be a
copyeditor--hmmm.)
I'm sure this little thing won't last forever and it is so okay with me that
his interest wanes (whew! I'm running out of short phonetic words I can draw
anyway) but I'm not clear about the phonetic aspect. As I said, I have a word
passion that I'm sure I communicate; there's tons of history implicit in
which words are phonetic and which aren't--I could go on and on. We are truly
having a joyful time with it, but am I inserting my own agenda here?? So I
thought I'd put this out there for those who can detect/challenge assumptions
really well. Please have at it!
Thanks.
Andrea S.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We are in the middle of something wonderful for ds (4.5yo). I want to make
it even more joyful if possible, so I'd like to get feedback on where (if at
all) I am falling back on schooling notions and how to push this even further in
the direction of joyful learning.
My sis habitually mails me the Sunday crossword puzzle from my old hometown
newspaper. Ds has shown interest in the past and wanted to put letters in the
squares, so this time I asked if he'd like me to make him his own crossword
and he could do his while I did mine. He was thrilled with this suggestion. I
drew pictures for clues and used only phonetic words (more on this). He had a
blast and I wound up making about 10 of these, at his insistence, throughout
the day (& had to promise to make one for him to wake up to in the morning).
Needless to say I got little chance to do my own puzzle!
We worked them out together. He usually got the picture clues right away,
then we would puzzle out how the word might be spelled by sounding it out. I
did it that way because he was given a "workbook" (not by me) that he *loved*
(to my surprise). There was a lot of "insert the middle letter" of 3-letter
phonetic-type words in there. Also, building on that, I got him some Bob books
(the first ones are completely phonetic) which he has from time to time been
passionate about (and then leaves for weeks and that is okay with me). Anyway,
I was aware that the sounding out part was (1) fun for both of us (I have such
a passion for words and sounds that I'm actually fascinated by sounding out
b-u-s) AND (2) seemed pretty "schoolish." When dh came home and was coopted
into this, I noticed that he would simply tell ds how to spell the word once ds
figured out the picture-clue. Ds did not object to this. So, though he
seemed to have fun doing the sounding out (just as another part of the game of
figuring the whole thing out), he didn't care if that part wasn't there either.
(By the way, dh is a notoriously poor speller and I used to be a
copyeditor--hmmm.)
I'm sure this little thing won't last forever and it is so okay with me that
his interest wanes (whew! I'm running out of short phonetic words I can draw
anyway) but I'm not clear about the phonetic aspect. As I said, I have a word
passion that I'm sure I communicate; there's tons of history implicit in
which words are phonetic and which aren't--I could go on and on. We are truly
having a joyful time with it, but am I inserting my own agenda here?? So I
thought I'd put this out there for those who can detect/challenge assumptions
really well. Please have at it!
Thanks.
Andrea S.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/16/2004 11:31:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
BillAndrea@... writes:
I'm sure this little thing won't last forever and it is so okay with me that
his interest wanes (whew! I'm running out of short phonetic words I can
draw
anyway) but I'm not clear about the phonetic aspect. As I said, I have a
word
passion that I'm sure I communicate; there's tons of history implicit in
which words are phonetic and which aren't--I could go on and on.
<<<<
Sounds fun. One thing that he might like is to know that sometimes "ph"
makes the "f" sound----so you can insert an word that shows that. Or that "c" can
make the "s" or the "k" sound----or "ch". Making it fun with only *one*
weird sound at a time.
Having two "styles"----yours and your husband's to call on is great.
It may be a passion that lasts forever or only a day----either way, he's
getting something out of it.
Have fun!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BillAndrea@... writes:
I'm sure this little thing won't last forever and it is so okay with me that
his interest wanes (whew! I'm running out of short phonetic words I can
draw
anyway) but I'm not clear about the phonetic aspect. As I said, I have a
word
passion that I'm sure I communicate; there's tons of history implicit in
which words are phonetic and which aren't--I could go on and on.
<<<<
Sounds fun. One thing that he might like is to know that sometimes "ph"
makes the "f" sound----so you can insert an word that shows that. Or that "c" can
make the "s" or the "k" sound----or "ch". Making it fun with only *one*
weird sound at a time.
Having two "styles"----yours and your husband's to call on is great.
It may be a passion that lasts forever or only a day----either way, he's
getting something out of it.
Have fun!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catherine aceto
I'm not in any way holding myself out as an expert, but here are my thoughts. If you made up 10 more puzzles tonight and tomorrow morning he said he'd rather [insert conventionally non-educational activity here], and you could, as you said, say, Ok quite joyfully (and maybe even rejoice in having some time to do your own puzzle), then I think you are not inserting your own agenda.
If your 4.5 yo hasn't been to school or school-at-home, then I think you can trust his reactions of what he says he likes and doesn't like much more readily than if at some point he had been exposed to what the "right" answers were to what he "should" like.
Communicating passion is part of what makes the world interesting to me. Even a subject that I wouldn't own my own find fascinating (say, subtle differences in fish genotypes) can be quite fascinating to hear my brother the ichthyologist talk about.
As for continuing/extending the fun --What I tend to do is to think about what my daughter is enjoying about the activity and then propose another activity that has that thing in common.
If what he likes is the interlocking words puzzle part: do you think he would like to make up his own puzzles - maybe he could use scrabble tiles or boggle dice to put together words in a puzzle for you to solve with phonetic spelling, or he could ask his father to help make one for you or you to make one for his father. Or if you gave him some words with common letters written out large on pieces of card, he could rearrange them to make an interlocking puzzle.
If what he likes is the complete or figure out the word part, the Reader Rabbit computer games have a lot of those kinds of games in the kindergarten and first grade (their descriptions) games. My daughter likes those.
Maybe talk about what languages words can come from, if he finds that part interesting? Lydia likes words that are the same or similar in more than one language - she's particularly fond of bicycle in Italian -- bicicylette (dont' have a dictionary handy to look up the spelling of that).
I think there is something joyful anytime that we feel that someone "gets" our interest -- that feeling of being understood and supported. I think our kids feel that whenever they feel that we are thinking about what interests them and genuinely offering support with no ulterior motives.
-Cat
If your 4.5 yo hasn't been to school or school-at-home, then I think you can trust his reactions of what he says he likes and doesn't like much more readily than if at some point he had been exposed to what the "right" answers were to what he "should" like.
Communicating passion is part of what makes the world interesting to me. Even a subject that I wouldn't own my own find fascinating (say, subtle differences in fish genotypes) can be quite fascinating to hear my brother the ichthyologist talk about.
As for continuing/extending the fun --What I tend to do is to think about what my daughter is enjoying about the activity and then propose another activity that has that thing in common.
If what he likes is the interlocking words puzzle part: do you think he would like to make up his own puzzles - maybe he could use scrabble tiles or boggle dice to put together words in a puzzle for you to solve with phonetic spelling, or he could ask his father to help make one for you or you to make one for his father. Or if you gave him some words with common letters written out large on pieces of card, he could rearrange them to make an interlocking puzzle.
If what he likes is the complete or figure out the word part, the Reader Rabbit computer games have a lot of those kinds of games in the kindergarten and first grade (their descriptions) games. My daughter likes those.
Maybe talk about what languages words can come from, if he finds that part interesting? Lydia likes words that are the same or similar in more than one language - she's particularly fond of bicycle in Italian -- bicicylette (dont' have a dictionary handy to look up the spelling of that).
I think there is something joyful anytime that we feel that someone "gets" our interest -- that feeling of being understood and supported. I think our kids feel that whenever they feel that we are thinking about what interests them and genuinely offering support with no ulterior motives.
-Cat
----- Original Message -----
From: BillAndrea@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:26 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] please challenge my assumptions
Hi all
We are in the middle of something wonderful for ds (4.5yo). I want to make
it even more joyful if possible, so I'd like to get feedback on where (if at
all) I am falling back on schooling notions and how to push this even further in
the direction of joyful learning.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
eriksmama2001
When someone is sharing a passion and someone else glazzzzzes over,
then it's your own agenda. Otherwise, I think it is the joy of being
able to communicate with language. What is the point of learning
words and how to spell other than to share your thoughts, interests
and journey with others.
Sounds like fun.
The other difference is that it is not mandatory for him to continue
this IF he indicates a lack of interest. I find myself wondering "did
I make him do it?" too but we have never used any rewards or
punishments, so I have to remember that "make" is my own experience
and filter of the world. I am just sensitive not to imply no choice.
But asking repeatedly "are you sure you want to do this?" can beg the
answer "maybe I don't". Listening to a child was not modelled for me
so I try to remember: would I be comfortable having an adult interact
this way with me?
Pat
then it's your own agenda. Otherwise, I think it is the joy of being
able to communicate with language. What is the point of learning
words and how to spell other than to share your thoughts, interests
and journey with others.
Sounds like fun.
The other difference is that it is not mandatory for him to continue
this IF he indicates a lack of interest. I find myself wondering "did
I make him do it?" too but we have never used any rewards or
punishments, so I have to remember that "make" is my own experience
and filter of the world. I am just sensitive not to imply no choice.
But asking repeatedly "are you sure you want to do this?" can beg the
answer "maybe I don't". Listening to a child was not modelled for me
so I try to remember: would I be comfortable having an adult interact
this way with me?
Pat
--- In [email protected], BillAndrea@a... wrote:
> Hi all
>
> We are in the middle of something wonderful for ds (4.5yo). I want
to make
> it even more joyful if possible, so I'd like to get feedback on
where (if at
> all) I am falling back on schooling notions and how to push this
even further in
> the direction of joyful learning.
>
> My sis habitually mails me the Sunday crossword puzzle from my old
hometown
> newspaper. Ds has shown interest in the past and wanted to put
letters in the
> squares, so this time I asked if he'd like me to make him his own
crossword
> and he could do his while I did mine. He was thrilled with this
suggestion. I
> drew pictures for clues and used only phonetic words (more on
this). He had a
> blast and I wound up making about 10 of these, at his insistence,
throughout
> the day (& had to promise to make one for him to wake up to in the
morning).
> Needless to say I got little chance to do my own puzzle!
>
> We worked them out together. He usually got the picture clues
right away,
> then we would puzzle out how the word might be spelled by sounding
it out. I
> did it that way because he was given a "workbook" (not by me) that
he *loved*
> (to my surprise). There was a lot of "insert the middle letter" of
3-letter
> phonetic-type words in there. Also, building on that, I got him
some Bob books
> (the first ones are completely phonetic) which he has from time to
time been
> passionate about (and then leaves for weeks and that is okay with
me). Anyway,
> I was aware that the sounding out part was (1) fun for both of us
(I have such
> a passion for words and sounds that I'm actually fascinated by
sounding out
> b-u-s) AND (2) seemed pretty "schoolish." When dh came home and
was coopted
> into this, I noticed that he would simply tell ds how to spell the
word once ds
> figured out the picture-clue. Ds did not object to this. So,
though he
> seemed to have fun doing the sounding out (just as another part of
the game of
> figuring the whole thing out), he didn't care if that part wasn't
there either.
> (By the way, dh is a notoriously poor speller and I used to be a
> copyeditor--hmmm.)
>
> I'm sure this little thing won't last forever and it is so okay
with me that
> his interest wanes (whew! I'm running out of short phonetic words
I can draw
> anyway) but I'm not clear about the phonetic aspect. As I said, I
have a word
> passion that I'm sure I communicate; there's tons of history
implicit in
> which words are phonetic and which aren't--I could go on and on.
We are truly
> having a joyful time with it, but am I inserting my own agenda
here?? So I
> thought I'd put this out there for those who can detect/challenge
assumptions
> really well. Please have at it!
>
> Thanks.
> Andrea S.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<I'm sure this little thing won't last forever and it is so okay with me
that
his interest wanes (whew! I'm running out of short phonetic words I can
draw
anyway) but I'm not clear about the phonetic aspect. As I said, I have a
word
passion that I'm sure I communicate; there's tons of history implicit in
which words are phonetic and which aren't--I could go on and on. We are
truly
having a joyful time with it, but am I inserting my own agenda here?? So I
thought I'd put this out there for those who can detect/challenge
assumptions
really well. Please have at it!>>>>
Sorry to disappoint you, but it sounds like you have absolutely zero to
worry about. Even if you have to repeat words periodically.
Keep having fun and take your cue for ds and his enjoyment level.
I'd love to see some of the puzzles you have made.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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that
his interest wanes (whew! I'm running out of short phonetic words I can
draw
anyway) but I'm not clear about the phonetic aspect. As I said, I have a
word
passion that I'm sure I communicate; there's tons of history implicit in
which words are phonetic and which aren't--I could go on and on. We are
truly
having a joyful time with it, but am I inserting my own agenda here?? So I
thought I'd put this out there for those who can detect/challenge
assumptions
really well. Please have at it!>>>>
Sorry to disappoint you, but it sounds like you have absolutely zero to
worry about. Even if you have to repeat words periodically.
Keep having fun and take your cue for ds and his enjoyment level.
I'd love to see some of the puzzles you have made.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 7/16/2004
[email protected]
Thanks for all the encouraging feedback on our crossword puzzle foray. It's
true--glazed looks do signal loss of interest, but even better: when ds lost
focus he would just start poking me with his pencil! A clear sign. But he
kept going back to it all day.
Ds raced downstairs the next morning to start the x-word puzzle I had been
ordered to make up for him, did one word and then mysteriously lost interest.
My last (and greatest) puzzle is languishing under the couch...I'll keep all
the really great ideas for extending his interest for such time as it becomes an
interest again.
This question of communicating passion continues to interest me. I see that
I *could* easily squelch ds's interests by my own lack of interest. Example:
he is into dramatic play around pirates and, more recently, knights, so I got
him some foam-type swords I saw. Of course I was pressed into service but I
just was such a wussy--I just didn't know how to get into swordfighting--I
could tell it was underwhelming and not very fun. Fortunately when dh came home
an incredibly rousing battle was fought, one that even I (now in a more
comfortable role as queen) started getting into. With older children who are more
independent, I can see it's not necessary to have the same interests, just help
them get the resources they need to pursue them. But when you're 4 and your
mom sucks at being a knight (and you live kind of far from your friends),
what's a kid to do? Am I sending messages that this is not a "good" interest?
Because I don't mean to do that.
Also, re: the line between communicating passion and having an agenda:
Before finding this list, I purchased some children's French language videos for
ds. Clearly my idea, so not a very unschooling thing to do. But again, I have
a dear mentor who is French, I studied it in school and thought it would be
fun to get back into. Since ds's screen time was pretty restricted pre-list
(and still is, though less so), he was amazed that Mom was *letting* him watch
these videos. He thinks they are great and now a lot of our imaginative play
concerns the characters therein (he usually says stuff in English and I reply in
French). He *loves* playing Corvax (the bad guy) and it actually seems to be
a way for him to work out some aggression issues. So, I can tell he
definitely resonates with this but then, his choices have been limited in some ways.
Still, even with videos, there are some he *doesn't* care for so it's not like
he'll take anything just because his access has been relatively limited.
Maybe I just lucked into pushing an agenda he was interested in anyway?? Any
thoughts on this whole topic?
I will say that he doesn't actually watch the videos much any more--he
prefers the imaginative play. And when he does watch, he has lately been watching
them in English (which was included I guess for the parents' sake). I have
some trouble biting my tongue--I spent the $$ so he'd watch the French
version!!!--but I do realize that it was *my* idea anyway. I guess I put it out there
with the French agenda, and he took it but with an
imaginative-play-about-bad-guys agenda....Funny how you can get what you need from things. BTW he does
like to sprinkle French words in our conversations and especially likes that in
French your toes are "the fingers of your feet."
Thank you all for letting me explore my own thoughts and giving me yours!
Andrea
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
true--glazed looks do signal loss of interest, but even better: when ds lost
focus he would just start poking me with his pencil! A clear sign. But he
kept going back to it all day.
Ds raced downstairs the next morning to start the x-word puzzle I had been
ordered to make up for him, did one word and then mysteriously lost interest.
My last (and greatest) puzzle is languishing under the couch...I'll keep all
the really great ideas for extending his interest for such time as it becomes an
interest again.
This question of communicating passion continues to interest me. I see that
I *could* easily squelch ds's interests by my own lack of interest. Example:
he is into dramatic play around pirates and, more recently, knights, so I got
him some foam-type swords I saw. Of course I was pressed into service but I
just was such a wussy--I just didn't know how to get into swordfighting--I
could tell it was underwhelming and not very fun. Fortunately when dh came home
an incredibly rousing battle was fought, one that even I (now in a more
comfortable role as queen) started getting into. With older children who are more
independent, I can see it's not necessary to have the same interests, just help
them get the resources they need to pursue them. But when you're 4 and your
mom sucks at being a knight (and you live kind of far from your friends),
what's a kid to do? Am I sending messages that this is not a "good" interest?
Because I don't mean to do that.
Also, re: the line between communicating passion and having an agenda:
Before finding this list, I purchased some children's French language videos for
ds. Clearly my idea, so not a very unschooling thing to do. But again, I have
a dear mentor who is French, I studied it in school and thought it would be
fun to get back into. Since ds's screen time was pretty restricted pre-list
(and still is, though less so), he was amazed that Mom was *letting* him watch
these videos. He thinks they are great and now a lot of our imaginative play
concerns the characters therein (he usually says stuff in English and I reply in
French). He *loves* playing Corvax (the bad guy) and it actually seems to be
a way for him to work out some aggression issues. So, I can tell he
definitely resonates with this but then, his choices have been limited in some ways.
Still, even with videos, there are some he *doesn't* care for so it's not like
he'll take anything just because his access has been relatively limited.
Maybe I just lucked into pushing an agenda he was interested in anyway?? Any
thoughts on this whole topic?
I will say that he doesn't actually watch the videos much any more--he
prefers the imaginative play. And when he does watch, he has lately been watching
them in English (which was included I guess for the parents' sake). I have
some trouble biting my tongue--I spent the $$ so he'd watch the French
version!!!--but I do realize that it was *my* idea anyway. I guess I put it out there
with the French agenda, and he took it but with an
imaginative-play-about-bad-guys agenda....Funny how you can get what you need from things. BTW he does
like to sprinkle French words in our conversations and especially likes that in
French your toes are "the fingers of your feet."
Thank you all for letting me explore my own thoughts and giving me yours!
Andrea
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]