New to the group with a question
jamieminnis
Hi, I am new to this group and new to the whole concept of
unschooling. I am, however, very interested in beginning unschooling
my two boys (ages 3 1/2 and 4 3/4). I know that this they are still
wonderfully young, but they have had some terrible experiences with
school already.
My oldest is of the most concern. He is exceptionally bright and a
very self-directed learner, but he has some problems with the social
part of communication (the back-and-forth of conversation, talking
about something that someone else is interested in). Has anyone else
had a child who struggled with this? How did you handle it? How does
it fit with unschooling? Does the child naturally learn to have a
conversation about something other than knights, space, or whatever
their area of interest is?
Jamie
unschooling. I am, however, very interested in beginning unschooling
my two boys (ages 3 1/2 and 4 3/4). I know that this they are still
wonderfully young, but they have had some terrible experiences with
school already.
My oldest is of the most concern. He is exceptionally bright and a
very self-directed learner, but he has some problems with the social
part of communication (the back-and-forth of conversation, talking
about something that someone else is interested in). Has anyone else
had a child who struggled with this? How did you handle it? How does
it fit with unschooling? Does the child naturally learn to have a
conversation about something other than knights, space, or whatever
their area of interest is?
Jamie
Schuyler
> Hi, I am new to this group and new to the whole concept ofMy son, who is 9, has the most amazing conversations with me, must often
> unschooling. I am, however, very interested in beginning unschooling
> my two boys (ages 3 1/2 and 4 3/4). I know that this they are still
> wonderfully young, but they have had some terrible experiences with
> school already.
> My oldest is of the most concern. He is exceptionally bright and a
> very self-directed learner, but he has some problems with the social
> part of communication (the back-and-forth of conversation, talking
> about something that someone else is interested in). Has anyone else
> had a child who struggled with this? How did you handle it? How does
> it fit with unschooling? Does the child naturally learn to have a
> conversation about something other than knights, space, or whatever
> their area of interest is?
they are about Pokemon or Digimon or whatever game he is playing at that
moment. And they are filled, not only with detail, but with such excitement
over the subject matter.
Actually a couple of weeks ago I met a really nice boy who talked to me
about Warhammer for about half an hour. Nothing else, just Warhammer. And it
was brilliant, he told me about the stats and some specific battles he'd
been in with a mutual friend. I could imagine the battle and, more than
that, he could see all of these characters as he spoke, and his face was
alight with excitement
When he got up to go do something else I said to his mother "Wow, that was
wonderful." and she said "It's hard to believe he wouldn't talk to people a
year and a half ago."
At 3 1/2 and 4 3/4 I wouldn't expect anyone to think outside of their own
interests. At 38 I still like to talk about my interests and, while I can
become interested in many things, certain subjects like soccer or cricket or
how well someone's child is doing in school, can often leave me cold.
Talking about what interests you is really the best part of conversation,
and as his interests begin to incorporate other things so will his
conversations. Maybe you should just figure out ways to like what he's
talking about more <g>. And heck knights and space are pretty amazing topics
of conversation.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 16, 2007, at 3:53 PM, jamieminnis wrote:
things?
Or has someone pointed out that he "needs" to talk about other things
or not go on so long and he's feeling bad about himself that he can't?
start working on using language?
Ask yourself what problem does *he* want help with.
The best thing you can do is model listening :-) Be interested in
what he has to say. Treat him with respect and he will, as he's
developmentally able to, treat others with respect. Also find others
who share the same interests.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't ever give our kids some coaching about
social situations but it needs to be something they want help with
rather than some flaw we're perceiving in them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> but he has some problems with the socialSounds perfectly age appropriate.
> part of communication (the back-and-forth of conversation, talking
> about something that someone else is interested in).
> Has anyone elseIs *he* struggling? Is *he* trying to have conversations about other
> had a child who struggled with this?
things?
Or has someone pointed out that he "needs" to talk about other things
or not go on so long and he's feeling bad about himself that he can't?
> How did you handle it? How doesHow did he learn to speak? Did you think, hmm, he's 2, we need to
> it fit with unschooling?
start working on using language?
Ask yourself what problem does *he* want help with.
The best thing you can do is model listening :-) Be interested in
what he has to say. Treat him with respect and he will, as he's
developmentally able to, treat others with respect. Also find others
who share the same interests.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't ever give our kids some coaching about
social situations but it needs to be something they want help with
rather than some flaw we're perceiving in them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jamie Minnis
I don't think that his conversational ability is
really a problem. Because of this "inability" to pick
up on when someone isn't interested in his topic of
choice (at age 4), he has been put in a special ed
preschool -- even though he has now been identified as
gifted in various areas. This is the ENTIRE reason
that I am ready to start unschooling. (I haven't
officially started yet. My husband wants us to wait
until the end of the school year to withdraw them for
various reasons, but we are attempting to make our
homelife as unschooling as possible.)
I don't think that he feels bad about not "being
able" to have conversations, because we don't focus on
it at home. I just talk to him about what he is
interested in and work on actively listening and
asking any questions that I might have and answering
all of the questions that he constantly has. You
know, modeling normal conversations. I don't know if
this fits with the unschooling way, but I hope so.
By the way, I only add the mention of giftedness to
show how wrong his assignment to a special ed
classroom is. And I only had him evaluated for
giftedness because of various behavior problems that
have come from his high level of boredom in the
classroom (he is reading on a late first-grade level
and the teachers are focusing on much lower level
activities). He actually says that he has a bad day
every day and fights going to school. Anyway, sorry
for the tangent, but I just wanted to explain myself.
--- Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
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really a problem. Because of this "inability" to pick
up on when someone isn't interested in his topic of
choice (at age 4), he has been put in a special ed
preschool -- even though he has now been identified as
gifted in various areas. This is the ENTIRE reason
that I am ready to start unschooling. (I haven't
officially started yet. My husband wants us to wait
until the end of the school year to withdraw them for
various reasons, but we are attempting to make our
homelife as unschooling as possible.)
I don't think that he feels bad about not "being
able" to have conversations, because we don't focus on
it at home. I just talk to him about what he is
interested in and work on actively listening and
asking any questions that I might have and answering
all of the questions that he constantly has. You
know, modeling normal conversations. I don't know if
this fits with the unschooling way, but I hope so.
By the way, I only add the mention of giftedness to
show how wrong his assignment to a special ed
classroom is. And I only had him evaluated for
giftedness because of various behavior problems that
have come from his high level of boredom in the
classroom (he is reading on a late first-grade level
and the teachers are focusing on much lower level
activities). He actually says that he has a bad day
every day and fights going to school. Anyway, sorry
for the tangent, but I just wanted to explain myself.
--- Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
>____________________________________________________________________________________
> On Feb 16, 2007, at 3:53 PM, jamieminnis wrote:
>
> > but he has some problems with the social
> > part of communication (the back-and-forth of
> conversation, talking
> > about something that someone else is interested
> in).
>
> Sounds perfectly age appropriate.
>
> > Has anyone else
> > had a child who struggled with this?
>
> Is *he* struggling? Is *he* trying to have
> conversations about other
> things?
>
> Or has someone pointed out that he "needs" to talk
> about other things
> or not go on so long and he's feeling bad about
> himself that he can't?
>
> > How did you handle it? How does
> > it fit with unschooling?
>
> How did he learn to speak? Did you think, hmm, he's
> 2, we need to
> start working on using language?
>
> Ask yourself what problem does *he* want help with.
>
> The best thing you can do is model listening :-) Be
> interested in
> what he has to say. Treat him with respect and he
> will, as he's
> developmentally able to, treat others with respect.
> Also find others
> who share the same interests.
>
> That doesn't mean we shouldn't ever give our kids
> some coaching about
> social situations but it needs to be something they
> want help with
> rather than some flaw we're perceiving in them.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
Heather
Well if this were my child....
<<He actually says that he has a bad day
every day and fights going to school.>>
I would work on changing this (if possible)
Are they more important than your sons happiness?
sincerely,
heather m
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<He actually says that he has a bad day
every day and fights going to school.>>
I would work on changing this (if possible)
> <<My husband wants us to waitWhat are the reasons for waiting?
> until the end of the school year to withdraw them for
> various reasons>>
>
Are they more important than your sons happiness?
sincerely,
heather m
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jamie Minnis
We have been trying to help him focus on what he DID
like during the day and trying to help him explain
what he didn't like during the day ... to try to make
it as positive an experience as possible -- until it's
over.
As far as which is more important, my husband's
reasons for waiting to withdraw him from school or
son's happiness ... these are questions that I worry
about constantly. but ... my husband was at first
VERY against any type of homeschooling, especially
unschooling, but he is changing his mind. It is
interesting how some people disgest new information.
I like to have all of the details and really
understand it and then I can make a decision, as
quickly as possible (almost obsessively my husband
says). My husband likes to make a decision, then
learn more about the topic (if he has to) and then he
can rethink his original decision. Knowing this
pattern of his, he has finally disgested enough
information and has really taken the time to get to
know our oldest better and is starting to change his
mind and agree with me on unschooling. It's hard for
him, he was raised with very negative parents who did
not believe in him and he really wants our boys to
have every educational option available to them (which
in my husband's eyes means required college) that this
change to a non-traditional educational paradigm is
very difficult. Anyway, at least progress is
happening.
Jamie
--- Heather <heather@...> wrote:
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like during the day and trying to help him explain
what he didn't like during the day ... to try to make
it as positive an experience as possible -- until it's
over.
As far as which is more important, my husband's
reasons for waiting to withdraw him from school or
son's happiness ... these are questions that I worry
about constantly. but ... my husband was at first
VERY against any type of homeschooling, especially
unschooling, but he is changing his mind. It is
interesting how some people disgest new information.
I like to have all of the details and really
understand it and then I can make a decision, as
quickly as possible (almost obsessively my husband
says). My husband likes to make a decision, then
learn more about the topic (if he has to) and then he
can rethink his original decision. Knowing this
pattern of his, he has finally disgested enough
information and has really taken the time to get to
know our oldest better and is starting to change his
mind and agree with me on unschooling. It's hard for
him, he was raised with very negative parents who did
not believe in him and he really wants our boys to
have every educational option available to them (which
in my husband's eyes means required college) that this
change to a non-traditional educational paradigm is
very difficult. Anyway, at least progress is
happening.
Jamie
--- Heather <heather@...> wrote:
> Well if this were my child....____________________________________________________________________________________
> <<He actually says that he has a bad day
>
> every day and fights going to school.>>
>
> I would work on changing this (if possible)
>
> > <<My husband wants us to wait
> > until the end of the school year to withdraw them
> for
> > various reasons>>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> What are the reasons for waiting?
> Are they more important than your sons happiness?
>
> sincerely,
> heather m
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
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Sylvia Toyama
I don't think that his conversational ability is really a problem. Because of this "inability" to pick up on when someone isn't interested in his topic of choice (at age 4), he has been put in a special ed preschool
****
The preschool has made this assessment at age 4?! Most 6yo kids (and some older) don't understand the conversational cues.
****
(I haven't officially started yet. My husband wants us to wait until the end of the school year to withdraw them for various reasons, but we are attempting to make our homelife as unschooling as possible.
*****
Are those reason for waiting more important than preventing the damage being done to your children today, and for the next 3 or 4 months until school ends? Why put them thru the extra time there?
******
He actually says that he has a bad day every day and fights going to school.
*****
Is there some way you and your husband can bring your kids home from school now? Your little boy is crying out to be spared the pain of being in school -- at 4yo.
Sylvia
Gary (dh)
Will (22) Andy (10-1/2) and Dan (6)
Peace is the vibrant space which stimulates the dance of kindness, merriment and freedom. ~ unknown
http://ourhapahome.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
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Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
****
The preschool has made this assessment at age 4?! Most 6yo kids (and some older) don't understand the conversational cues.
****
(I haven't officially started yet. My husband wants us to wait until the end of the school year to withdraw them for various reasons, but we are attempting to make our homelife as unschooling as possible.
*****
Are those reason for waiting more important than preventing the damage being done to your children today, and for the next 3 or 4 months until school ends? Why put them thru the extra time there?
******
He actually says that he has a bad day every day and fights going to school.
*****
Is there some way you and your husband can bring your kids home from school now? Your little boy is crying out to be spared the pain of being in school -- at 4yo.
Sylvia
Gary (dh)
Will (22) Andy (10-1/2) and Dan (6)
Peace is the vibrant space which stimulates the dance of kindness, merriment and freedom. ~ unknown
http://ourhapahome.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
My oldest (who is now 12) did have a problem with this. I would go so far as to say he
struggled with it, because other children aren't as forgiving as adults when a child
continues on in his interests. They don't want to hear someone else go on and on without
consideration to their POV. So he lost a lot of potential friends, and got his feelings hurt
when people walked away from him. He really could not stop talking about his interest
long enough to say 'Why are you walking away?" He was very depressed because he
wanted friends and no children wanted him.
We have always accepted his interests and we talk about them. I have done research and
read books so I know what he's talking about (even more difficult now that he's 12 and
bypassed me in all ways technical) So he's learned the back-and-forth within his interests.
When he was about seven or eight, he was capable of dealing with me making connecting
comments like "Oh, this is kind of like in MY hobby, when we do this" (before then, any
comment offtopic of his interest was ignored or sparked a severe violent meltdown). By me
modeling how to ask questions and be interested, he did learn how to do that. I did say to
him "Sometimes people want you to be interested in their stuff too, it makes for better
conversation" We actually played games in how things are connected, because his brain
didn't see connections like "How is this pen and this cap connected? The cap goes on the
pen." He couldn't do that at all, and if you can't connect a physical thing like that, how can
you connect concepts like, if I'm talking about cars to a barber while getting my hair cut,
what are some things HE might know? Could I ask him what kind of car he drives?
Does this make sense? When you talk about it happening naturally, I think natural is so
varied, from person to person. With my other kids, they learned conversation skills very
early and very well, without any help. Josh really really needed help to get those fine tuned
skills. And my Breanna, who has autism, needs LOTS of practice to get the fundamentals
of communication down, just asking for help is a hardship.
Melissa
struggled with it, because other children aren't as forgiving as adults when a child
continues on in his interests. They don't want to hear someone else go on and on without
consideration to their POV. So he lost a lot of potential friends, and got his feelings hurt
when people walked away from him. He really could not stop talking about his interest
long enough to say 'Why are you walking away?" He was very depressed because he
wanted friends and no children wanted him.
We have always accepted his interests and we talk about them. I have done research and
read books so I know what he's talking about (even more difficult now that he's 12 and
bypassed me in all ways technical) So he's learned the back-and-forth within his interests.
When he was about seven or eight, he was capable of dealing with me making connecting
comments like "Oh, this is kind of like in MY hobby, when we do this" (before then, any
comment offtopic of his interest was ignored or sparked a severe violent meltdown). By me
modeling how to ask questions and be interested, he did learn how to do that. I did say to
him "Sometimes people want you to be interested in their stuff too, it makes for better
conversation" We actually played games in how things are connected, because his brain
didn't see connections like "How is this pen and this cap connected? The cap goes on the
pen." He couldn't do that at all, and if you can't connect a physical thing like that, how can
you connect concepts like, if I'm talking about cars to a barber while getting my hair cut,
what are some things HE might know? Could I ask him what kind of car he drives?
Does this make sense? When you talk about it happening naturally, I think natural is so
varied, from person to person. With my other kids, they learned conversation skills very
early and very well, without any help. Josh really really needed help to get those fine tuned
skills. And my Breanna, who has autism, needs LOTS of practice to get the fundamentals
of communication down, just asking for help is a hardship.
Melissa
--- In [email protected], "jamieminnis" <jamieminnis@...> wrote:
> My oldest is of the most concern. He is exceptionally bright and a
> very self-directed learner, but he has some problems with the social
> part of communication (the back-and-forth of conversation, talking
> about something that someone else is interested in). Has anyone else
> had a child who struggled with this? How did you handle it? How does
> it fit with unschooling? Does the child naturally learn to have a
> conversation about something other than knights, space, or whatever
> their area of interest is?
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Jamie Minnis
<jamieminnis@...> wrote:
to stay in school. It was a few weeks before we convinced her
otherwise and during that time we did what we could to validate and
empathize with dss' misery. We appologised, did his homework for
him, and told our own sad school stories. We affirmed his
experience - yeah, school sucks.
I understand that you want your son's experience to be something
other than miserable, but that may not be possible. If he really
really doesn't like being there, telling him that maybe there's a
way to be happy about it seems awfully invalidating to me. Its like
saying "oh, you just aren't *trying* to like it". I can't help but
wonder what that's doing to your relationship with him - does he
feel (like my stepson did) like his mom's not really listening, or
doesn't really care? Ouch.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
<jamieminnis@...> wrote:
>When my stepson (Ray, 13) first moved in with us, his mom wanted him
> We have been trying to help him focus on what he DID
> like during the day and trying to help him explain
> what he didn't like during the day ... to try to make
> it as positive an experience as possible -- until it's
> over.
to stay in school. It was a few weeks before we convinced her
otherwise and during that time we did what we could to validate and
empathize with dss' misery. We appologised, did his homework for
him, and told our own sad school stories. We affirmed his
experience - yeah, school sucks.
I understand that you want your son's experience to be something
other than miserable, but that may not be possible. If he really
really doesn't like being there, telling him that maybe there's a
way to be happy about it seems awfully invalidating to me. Its like
saying "oh, you just aren't *trying* to like it". I can't help but
wonder what that's doing to your relationship with him - does he
feel (like my stepson did) like his mom's not really listening, or
doesn't really care? Ouch.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
Jamie Minnis
Thank you for your honesty. I had never thought about
it like that before, but I completely agree that this
is the message that I have been sending. How sad! I
grew up in a family that had the "suck it up"
mentality -- which I hated -- and I definitely don't
want to put my son through the same feelings of
loneliness. Thanks again for you straightforwardness
in showing me his point of view.
I will continue to keep the dialogue open with my
husband ... maybe I can get the boys out of school
sooner than the end of the school year. :)
Jamie
--- plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
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http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
it like that before, but I completely agree that this
is the message that I have been sending. How sad! I
grew up in a family that had the "suck it up"
mentality -- which I hated -- and I definitely don't
want to put my son through the same feelings of
loneliness. Thanks again for you straightforwardness
in showing me his point of view.
I will continue to keep the dialogue open with my
husband ... maybe I can get the boys out of school
sooner than the end of the school year. :)
Jamie
--- plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], Jamie____________________________________________________________________________________
> Minnis
> <jamieminnis@...> wrote:
> >
> > We have been trying to help him focus on what he
> DID
> > like during the day and trying to help him explain
> > what he didn't like during the day ... to try to
> make
> > it as positive an experience as possible -- until
> it's
> > over.
>
> When my stepson (Ray, 13) first moved in with us,
> his mom wanted him
> to stay in school. It was a few weeks before we
> convinced her
> otherwise and during that time we did what we could
> to validate and
> empathize with dss' misery. We appologised, did his
> homework for
> him, and told our own sad school stories. We
> affirmed his
> experience - yeah, school sucks.
>
> I understand that you want your son's experience to
> be something
> other than miserable, but that may not be possible.
> If he really
> really doesn't like being there, telling him that
> maybe there's a
> way to be happy about it seems awfully invalidating
> to me. Its like
> saying "oh, you just aren't *trying* to like it". I
> can't help but
> wonder what that's doing to your relationship with
> him - does he
> feel (like my stepson did) like his mom's not really
> listening, or
> doesn't really care? Ouch.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>
>
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265