Re: [unschoolingbasics] Reasonable vs unreasonable vs no boundaries
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: veronikat@...
I'd love to hear more about "permissive" vs. "authoritative"
parenting, and
how those relate (or don't) to unschooling.
-=-=-=-
Do you feel those are your only two options?
Partner parenting, respectful parenting, mindful parenting, consensual
living, solution-oriented parenting---there are so many *better* ways
to parent.
-=-=-=
I've been reading lately about how permissive parenting produces a
confused
an depressed adult - that children need limits in order to feel safe and
have purpose.
-=-=-=-
I suppose, to traditional parents, I may seem like a permissive parent.
A child doesn't need "limits" to feel safe and have purpose (not sure
what the "have purpose" part means, exactly). He needs a partner who
will look out for him and protect him and allow him to make mistakes
and learn. He needs respect and kindness and generosity and patience.
He's a stranger---and alien---in this world, and it is our
responsibility to help him navigate it. NOT control him.
The world is FULL of natural limits. Our lives are FULL of natural
limits. It's the way we deal with those limits that matters. Finding
solutions and dealing with obstacles and knowing what limits are real.
Too many mainstream parents make up arbitrary limits to "teach" their
children that limits exist. We simply deal with the ones we already
have naturally.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
It seems like a lot of people assume that unschooling must be
permissive,
but is that true?
-=-=-=-=-=-
I think more people assume that you have to "lay down the law" and make
children be obedient. To respect authority.
We work WITH our children.
And I have a bumper sticker: Question Authority
-=-=-=-=-
I do know that my son would eat trash and dead birds if I let him, so in
that way I am not permissive.
-=-=-=-
I sent this to Sandra for her "IfILet" page. I have to admit, this one
is my favorite!
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
Does your son LIKE to eat trash and dead birds? Why?
If those things are truly enticing him, I'd say there might be a
physical problem---like pica. I'd have him checked out.
Children don't CHOOSE to eat trash and dead birds. Seriously.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
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From: veronikat@...
I'd love to hear more about "permissive" vs. "authoritative"
parenting, and
how those relate (or don't) to unschooling.
-=-=-=-
Do you feel those are your only two options?
Partner parenting, respectful parenting, mindful parenting, consensual
living, solution-oriented parenting---there are so many *better* ways
to parent.
-=-=-=
I've been reading lately about how permissive parenting produces a
confused
an depressed adult - that children need limits in order to feel safe and
have purpose.
-=-=-=-
I suppose, to traditional parents, I may seem like a permissive parent.
A child doesn't need "limits" to feel safe and have purpose (not sure
what the "have purpose" part means, exactly). He needs a partner who
will look out for him and protect him and allow him to make mistakes
and learn. He needs respect and kindness and generosity and patience.
He's a stranger---and alien---in this world, and it is our
responsibility to help him navigate it. NOT control him.
The world is FULL of natural limits. Our lives are FULL of natural
limits. It's the way we deal with those limits that matters. Finding
solutions and dealing with obstacles and knowing what limits are real.
Too many mainstream parents make up arbitrary limits to "teach" their
children that limits exist. We simply deal with the ones we already
have naturally.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
It seems like a lot of people assume that unschooling must be
permissive,
but is that true?
-=-=-=-=-=-
I think more people assume that you have to "lay down the law" and make
children be obedient. To respect authority.
We work WITH our children.
And I have a bumper sticker: Question Authority
-=-=-=-=-
I do know that my son would eat trash and dead birds if I let him, so in
that way I am not permissive.
-=-=-=-
I sent this to Sandra for her "IfILet" page. I have to admit, this one
is my favorite!
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
Does your son LIKE to eat trash and dead birds? Why?
If those things are truly enticing him, I'd say there might be a
physical problem---like pica. I'd have him checked out.
Children don't CHOOSE to eat trash and dead birds. Seriously.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Joanne
--- In [email protected], "Veronika T"
<veronikat@...> wrote:
volume at a certain level between certain hours (i.e. quiet enough
for others to sleep during sleeping hours)>>>>>
Why would a rule have to be established?
If everyone is living respectfully, that child would *want* to be
quiet while others are sleeping. That's how it is in my home.
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (14)
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
<veronikat@...> wrote:
>>>>Like if a child shows interest in learning the electric guitar,the parent buys the guitar but establishes a rule that they keep the
volume at a certain level between certain hours (i.e. quiet enough
for others to sleep during sleeping hours)>>>>>
Why would a rule have to be established?
If everyone is living respectfully, that child would *want* to be
quiet while others are sleeping. That's how it is in my home.
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (14)
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
Ren Allen
~~
If everyone is living respectfully, that child would *want* to be
quiet while others are sleeping. That's how it is in my home.~~
Exactly.
Establishing a "rule" seems to shortcircuit the creative process too.
If my child really wanted/needed to play loudly when others were
sleeping, we could brainstorm a number of options, none of which
include people giving up sleep. I think rules and "no" simply limit
creative thinking. When we all start problem solving together, it's
amazing the options that turn up.
So far, all of my children are really used to the idea of being quiet
when someone is sleeping. That's just how we treat each other.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
If everyone is living respectfully, that child would *want* to be
quiet while others are sleeping. That's how it is in my home.~~
Exactly.
Establishing a "rule" seems to shortcircuit the creative process too.
If my child really wanted/needed to play loudly when others were
sleeping, we could brainstorm a number of options, none of which
include people giving up sleep. I think rules and "no" simply limit
creative thinking. When we all start problem solving together, it's
amazing the options that turn up.
So far, all of my children are really used to the idea of being quiet
when someone is sleeping. That's just how we treat each other.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: veronikat@...
I thought I'd send these definitions so you'll know what I meant by
authoritative. My understanding is that authoritative parents also show
unconditional love to their children, and do not use punishments. They
are
responsive, but also establish guidelines. I think the authoritative
parent
is also respectful, mindful, and solution-oriented.
-=-=-==-=-
No, he isn't. It just seems that way from a traditional, mainstream
perspective.
-=-=-=-=-
*Authoritative
<http://www.drrobertbrooks.com/writings/articles/0612.html>:*These
parents demonstrate warmth and involvement with their children.
=-==-=-
So far, so good.
-=-=-=-=-
They offer emotional support, but are also firm in establishing
guidelines,
limits and expectations.
-=-=-==-
Mindful, unschooling parents offer emotional, financial, physical,
spiritual, (and many other kinds of) support and are committed to
helping their children find their own boundaries and those of others.
They help their children understand limits---REAL limits as well as
society's arbitrary ones.
-==-=-=
They listen actively to their children and
encourage them to make their own decisions.
-=-=-=-
Good.
-=-=-=-=-
When appropriate, they involve
their children in the process of creating rules and consequences so that
their children learn to understand and appreciate the rationale for
rules.
-=-=-=-=-
BIG divergence here!
We don't live by rules. We live a principled life instead.
-=-=-=-
They focus on positive feedback rather than on punishment.
-=-=-=-
Although punishment *could* enter into he equation if necessary.
-=-=-=-=-
Very importantly,
authoritative parents recognize that discipline is most effective when
housed in the context of a loving relationship.
-=-=-=-
So it's OK to spank as long as you do it with love---and maybe not in
anger, right?
-=-=-=-=-
Also, the love shown is unconditional and not based on the child
performing or behaving in a
particular manner.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Or being ADD or ODD or ADHD? I hope.
-=-=-=-=-=-
*Authoritarian:* Although the words authoritative and authoritarian
sound
similar, the parenting styles that are associated with each are very
different. Authoritarian parents are frequently not warm nor nurturing.
They
do not easily take their children's feelings into consideration and
tend to
be more rigid, imposing rules without discussing the rationale with
their
children. They are quick to say, "You do it because I told you to do
it" or
"You do it because I'm your mother (or father)." They resort to
authority
and whether they realize it or not, they basically seek compliance and
obedience. Authoritarian parents may certainly show love, but more often
than not it is conditional, predicated on a child behaving in ways that
parents deem appropriate. Authoritarian parents are likely to resort to
corporal punishment rather than a problem-solving approach when they
feel
their children are not complying with their demands and/or have
transgressed
in some fashion.
-=-=-=-=-
Yuck, yuck, yuck!
-=-=-=-=-=-
*Permissive:* These parents are most noted for their failure to
establish
realistic goals, expectations, and limits for their children. Baumrind
identified two kinds of permissive parents, the *permissive-indulgent*
and
the *disengaged*. Permissive-indulgent parents may demonstrate love and
warmth, but they appear guided by the philosophy that "children will
learn
on their own."
-=-=-==-=
Well, children WILL learn on their own (we're hard-wired that way), but
they do so much better when they have a partner in the journey.
-=-=-=-=-
They have difficulty setting rules and limits.
-=-=-=-=
Have they every heard of principles instead? We have no rules here
(other than don't run around the pool!). Nor do we have arbitrary
liimits. Plenty of natural limits.
-=-=-=-=-
The childbegins to "rule the roost." If parents eventually attempt to
establish
limits and say "no." the child will often resist, having become
accustomed
to being in charge.
-=-=-=-=-
Right, and if the parent were allowed to rule the roost and suddenly
the child tried to set limits and say no---do you think the parents
would resist? I see it at lunch when I look across the restaurant at
elderly parents out to lunch with their grown children. Everyone's
pissed off at each other. No balance. No respect. No kindness. No trust.
-=-=-=-==-
It is not unusual for the parents to become exhausted
and eventually defer to their child's demands.
-=-=-=-=-
Respect. Trust. Kindness. Generosity. In our lives there is no
deferring or demanding. It looks SOOO different from any of these
scenarios you've brought us.
-=-=-=-=-=-
So, can an unschooling family include parents who provide guidelines?
-=-=-=-=-
Better question: can an unschooling parent have a paradigm shift and
see what other options are available?
-=-=-=-=-
Like if a child shows interest in learning the electric guitar, the
parent buys
the guitar but establishes a rule that they keep the volume at a certain
level between certain hours (i.e. quiet enough for others to sleep
during
sleeping hours). Or must the parent let the child explore everything
the way
the child wants to?
-=-=-=-=-
Again---only two options???
In our home, we buy the electric guitar and either keep it in the
garage music room OR get earphones so that the player can hear it but
not the rest of the house. OR talk about what's best for
*everyone*---loud as it will go when the guitarist is home alone, but
to be respectful of when others are around and need quiet.
-=-=-=-=-
Also, I'm surprised to hear someone suggest that children don't choose
to
eat trash. I've seen many babies and toddlers on the playground putting
random things from the ground in their mouths, and many different
reactions
to that by parents.
-=-=-==-
The child is exploring. He doesn't CHOOSE to eat trash---he's learning
what is and isn't pleasant to eat. He's FEELING and exploring the
items, not necessarily eating them.
If you're allowing him to get too near a corpse or trash, that's not
*his* fault---he's busy learning and exploring.
-=-=-=-=-
Smacking their hands and shaming them, redirecting,
explaining why eating trash is bad, letting them go ahead and eat the
trash,
etc.
-=-=-=-
The best option at this toddler age is probably redirection. Pick him
up and move him to a safer location. Get him a cracker.
But your child would *choose* to eat trash and dead birds?
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: veronikat@...
I thought I'd send these definitions so you'll know what I meant by
authoritative. My understanding is that authoritative parents also show
unconditional love to their children, and do not use punishments. They
are
responsive, but also establish guidelines. I think the authoritative
parent
is also respectful, mindful, and solution-oriented.
-=-=-==-=-
No, he isn't. It just seems that way from a traditional, mainstream
perspective.
-=-=-=-=-
*Authoritative
<http://www.drrobertbrooks.com/writings/articles/0612.html>:*These
parents demonstrate warmth and involvement with their children.
=-==-=-
So far, so good.
-=-=-=-=-
They offer emotional support, but are also firm in establishing
guidelines,
limits and expectations.
-=-=-==-
Mindful, unschooling parents offer emotional, financial, physical,
spiritual, (and many other kinds of) support and are committed to
helping their children find their own boundaries and those of others.
They help their children understand limits---REAL limits as well as
society's arbitrary ones.
-==-=-=
They listen actively to their children and
encourage them to make their own decisions.
-=-=-=-
Good.
-=-=-=-=-
When appropriate, they involve
their children in the process of creating rules and consequences so that
their children learn to understand and appreciate the rationale for
rules.
-=-=-=-=-
BIG divergence here!
We don't live by rules. We live a principled life instead.
-=-=-=-
They focus on positive feedback rather than on punishment.
-=-=-=-
Although punishment *could* enter into he equation if necessary.
-=-=-=-=-
Very importantly,
authoritative parents recognize that discipline is most effective when
housed in the context of a loving relationship.
-=-=-=-
So it's OK to spank as long as you do it with love---and maybe not in
anger, right?
-=-=-=-=-
Also, the love shown is unconditional and not based on the child
performing or behaving in a
particular manner.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Or being ADD or ODD or ADHD? I hope.
-=-=-=-=-=-
*Authoritarian:* Although the words authoritative and authoritarian
sound
similar, the parenting styles that are associated with each are very
different. Authoritarian parents are frequently not warm nor nurturing.
They
do not easily take their children's feelings into consideration and
tend to
be more rigid, imposing rules without discussing the rationale with
their
children. They are quick to say, "You do it because I told you to do
it" or
"You do it because I'm your mother (or father)." They resort to
authority
and whether they realize it or not, they basically seek compliance and
obedience. Authoritarian parents may certainly show love, but more often
than not it is conditional, predicated on a child behaving in ways that
parents deem appropriate. Authoritarian parents are likely to resort to
corporal punishment rather than a problem-solving approach when they
feel
their children are not complying with their demands and/or have
transgressed
in some fashion.
-=-=-=-=-
Yuck, yuck, yuck!
-=-=-=-=-=-
*Permissive:* These parents are most noted for their failure to
establish
realistic goals, expectations, and limits for their children. Baumrind
identified two kinds of permissive parents, the *permissive-indulgent*
and
the *disengaged*. Permissive-indulgent parents may demonstrate love and
warmth, but they appear guided by the philosophy that "children will
learn
on their own."
-=-=-==-=
Well, children WILL learn on their own (we're hard-wired that way), but
they do so much better when they have a partner in the journey.
-=-=-=-=-
They have difficulty setting rules and limits.
-=-=-=-=
Have they every heard of principles instead? We have no rules here
(other than don't run around the pool!). Nor do we have arbitrary
liimits. Plenty of natural limits.
-=-=-=-=-
The childbegins to "rule the roost." If parents eventually attempt to
establish
limits and say "no." the child will often resist, having become
accustomed
to being in charge.
-=-=-=-=-
Right, and if the parent were allowed to rule the roost and suddenly
the child tried to set limits and say no---do you think the parents
would resist? I see it at lunch when I look across the restaurant at
elderly parents out to lunch with their grown children. Everyone's
pissed off at each other. No balance. No respect. No kindness. No trust.
-=-=-=-==-
It is not unusual for the parents to become exhausted
and eventually defer to their child's demands.
-=-=-=-=-
Respect. Trust. Kindness. Generosity. In our lives there is no
deferring or demanding. It looks SOOO different from any of these
scenarios you've brought us.
-=-=-=-=-=-
So, can an unschooling family include parents who provide guidelines?
-=-=-=-=-
Better question: can an unschooling parent have a paradigm shift and
see what other options are available?
-=-=-=-=-
Like if a child shows interest in learning the electric guitar, the
parent buys
the guitar but establishes a rule that they keep the volume at a certain
level between certain hours (i.e. quiet enough for others to sleep
during
sleeping hours). Or must the parent let the child explore everything
the way
the child wants to?
-=-=-=-=-
Again---only two options???
In our home, we buy the electric guitar and either keep it in the
garage music room OR get earphones so that the player can hear it but
not the rest of the house. OR talk about what's best for
*everyone*---loud as it will go when the guitarist is home alone, but
to be respectful of when others are around and need quiet.
-=-=-=-=-
Also, I'm surprised to hear someone suggest that children don't choose
to
eat trash. I've seen many babies and toddlers on the playground putting
random things from the ground in their mouths, and many different
reactions
to that by parents.
-=-=-==-
The child is exploring. He doesn't CHOOSE to eat trash---he's learning
what is and isn't pleasant to eat. He's FEELING and exploring the
items, not necessarily eating them.
If you're allowing him to get too near a corpse or trash, that's not
*his* fault---he's busy learning and exploring.
-=-=-=-=-
Smacking their hands and shaming them, redirecting,
explaining why eating trash is bad, letting them go ahead and eat the
trash,
etc.
-=-=-=-
The best option at this toddler age is probably redirection. Pick him
up and move him to a safer location. Get him a cracker.
But your child would *choose* to eat trash and dead birds?
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: veronikat@...
Anyway, that's an example of why a rule is sometimes necessary. The
permissive parent would allow hitting the windows, I guess, and would
hope
the child "learned a lesson" if the windows happened to shatter and cut
him.
-=-=-
This is why we don't see ourselves as "permissive" but as "mindful"
We don't see rules as necessary.
If a child got hurt while his mom sat there, not caring or protecting,
he might feel abandoned and hurt that she didn't help. The "lesson" he
learned might be that mom doesn't care. He might learn that she's not
his partner.
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
\
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: veronikat@...
Anyway, that's an example of why a rule is sometimes necessary. The
permissive parent would allow hitting the windows, I guess, and would
hope
the child "learned a lesson" if the windows happened to shatter and cut
him.
-=-=-
This is why we don't see ourselves as "permissive" but as "mindful"
We don't see rules as necessary.
If a child got hurt while his mom sat there, not caring or protecting,
he might feel abandoned and hurt that she didn't help. The "lesson" he
learned might be that mom doesn't care. He might learn that she's not
his partner.
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
\
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Ren Allen
~~This is why we don't see ourselves as "permissive" but as "mindful"~~
Exactly.
And anyone that thinks a 22 month old gives a darn about a rule or why
it's in place, they might be a bit delusional.;)
At 22 months, they ARE going to hit things that can break if you give
them drumsticks. So set up a really cool area with pots and pans and
buckets and all sorts of fun things they CAN hit and re-direct them if
they get into something dangerous. They don't understand *why* they
shouldn't hit glass at that age, they just see something cool and want
to try it out.
Keeping a young child safe is our responsibility. Taking care of our
property and homes is usually a concern for most of us. That doesn't
mean it takes rules to do that. It takes time and involvement though.
Lots of it.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Exactly.
And anyone that thinks a 22 month old gives a darn about a rule or why
it's in place, they might be a bit delusional.;)
At 22 months, they ARE going to hit things that can break if you give
them drumsticks. So set up a really cool area with pots and pans and
buckets and all sorts of fun things they CAN hit and re-direct them if
they get into something dangerous. They don't understand *why* they
shouldn't hit glass at that age, they just see something cool and want
to try it out.
Keeping a young child safe is our responsibility. Taking care of our
property and homes is usually a concern for most of us. That doesn't
mean it takes rules to do that. It takes time and involvement though.
Lots of it.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Carrie Yandell
I have a 26mo. I don't do "rules" because a) my son wants to explore
the reasons for things by himself and b) he would ignore it :) I can't
say he respects our reasoning at all until he decides whether or not
he agrees!
So I never say "this is a rule and you must follow it" -- but we do
discuss things and how they might affect others, and make an example
of ourselves. If he's playing loudly I'll talk to him softly about how
it's late and you know how you can sometimes hear people through the
wall? They can hear us too but they might be trying to sleep and we
might be keeping them up. And like you said below we have to repeat
this every so often.
It's not perfect, but it's not arbitrary either and while he's not
very empathetic at the moment, I have high hopes. I don't think
they're "necessary", but what is necessary for us is discussion and,
at this age, examples. Of course my main thing about rules is that I
don't like them either :)
Carrie
the reasons for things by himself and b) he would ignore it :) I can't
say he respects our reasoning at all until he decides whether or not
he agrees!
So I never say "this is a rule and you must follow it" -- but we do
discuss things and how they might affect others, and make an example
of ourselves. If he's playing loudly I'll talk to him softly about how
it's late and you know how you can sometimes hear people through the
wall? They can hear us too but they might be trying to sleep and we
might be keeping them up. And like you said below we have to repeat
this every so often.
It's not perfect, but it's not arbitrary either and while he's not
very empathetic at the moment, I have high hopes. I don't think
they're "necessary", but what is necessary for us is discussion and,
at this age, examples. Of course my main thing about rules is that I
don't like them either :)
Carrie
On 1/22/07, Veronika T <veronikat@...> wrote:
> My son loves to play the drums, but he is not allowed to hit the windows or
> furniture with the wooden drumsticks (drums, toys, rugs, boxes, etc. are
> fine). We don't have to do much to enforce this rule (I think because he
> respects our reasoning), but if we hadn't told him he couldn't do it
> initially, he would be happy to go around beating on everything with the
> drumsticks, including the windows and furniture. He occasionally forgets
> that he shouldn't do it, and when he does, we remind him again why he
> shouldn't. Sometimes he keeps doing it anyway, and we have to take away the
> drumsticks for fear of his breaking the windows.
Manisha Kher
--- Veronika T <veronikat@...> wrote:
are derived from principles. They are simplified ways
of applying a principle. But once a rule is made, the
principle behind the rule is often forgotten. Then
you're only left with the choice of obeying the rule
or breaking the rule. If you keep the principle in
mind you can be flexible about finding solutions that
meet everyone's needs.
For example, getting enough sleep so that you're
well-rested is a principle. Going to bed at 8 pm is a
rule. It does not take into account how much sleep a
kid needs, whether there's something interesting that
a would rather do or anything else.
Manisha
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
> This seems to have become a semantic discussion toIt is more than a semantic discussion. I think rules
> some extent. (One
> definition of the word "rule" is "a principle," so
> one could argue that if
> you live by principles, you are living by rules.)
are derived from principles. They are simplified ways
of applying a principle. But once a rule is made, the
principle behind the rule is often forgotten. Then
you're only left with the choice of obeying the rule
or breaking the rule. If you keep the principle in
mind you can be flexible about finding solutions that
meet everyone's needs.
For example, getting enough sleep so that you're
well-rested is a principle. Going to bed at 8 pm is a
rule. It does not take into account how much sleep a
kid needs, whether there's something interesting that
a would rather do or anything else.
Manisha
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
A Voss Dolce
Where does one find out more about mindful parenting?
I have often been accused of permissive parenting ( mostly from my ex) and some friends and relatives harp about my son needing 'limits' and my not setting 'boundaries.' The message to me is 'If you love your son, you will set strict limits for him.' Hence, I do not love my son enough...
I would like to learn about an alternative from the 'norm' of permissive-authoritative-authoritarian... the Dr. Phil approach to parenting just doesn't seem to work for me...
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have often been accused of permissive parenting ( mostly from my ex) and some friends and relatives harp about my son needing 'limits' and my not setting 'boundaries.' The message to me is 'If you love your son, you will set strict limits for him.' Hence, I do not love my son enough...
I would like to learn about an alternative from the 'norm' of permissive-authoritative-authoritarian... the Dr. Phil approach to parenting just doesn't seem to work for me...
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky
Amy I just read a great book:
Raising our Children, Rainsing Ourselves by Naomi Aldort.
I greatly recomend.
Alex
Raising our Children, Rainsing Ourselves by Naomi Aldort.
I greatly recomend.
Alex
----- Original Message -----
From: A Voss Dolce
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 3:06 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Reasonable vs unreasonable vs no boundaries
Where does one find out more about mindful parenting?
I have often been accused of permissive parenting ( mostly from my ex) and some friends and relatives harp about my son needing 'limits' and my not setting 'boundaries.' The message to me is 'If you love your son, you will set strict limits for him.' Hence, I do not love my son enough...
I would like to learn about an alternative from the 'norm' of permissive-authoritative-authoritarian... the Dr. Phil approach to parenting just doesn't seem to work for me...
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wuweimama
--- In [email protected], "A Voss Dolce" <avd@...> wrote:
yahoogroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/
Consensual living is a process, a philosophy, a mindset by which we
seek to live in harmony with our families and community. It involves
finding mutually agreed upon solutions, where the needs of both
parties are not only considered but addressed. Everyone's wants and
needs are equally valid, regardless of age. Conflicting wants or needs
are discussed and mutually agreeable solutions are created or
negotiated which meet the underlying needs of all parties. Beginners
to this concept are welcome to join this list, living consensually is
an ongoing process of discovery. We ask that you be open to or on the
path toward living consensually. We hope to explore the issues by
asking questions, and sharing our experiences. Parenting is a
sensitive issue for many people but we are all here to practice this
process, and can do so if the environment remains one of respect,
compassion, exploration and understanding. If you would like more
information about Consensual Living or would like to sign up for the
Consensual Living Newsletter, please visit our web site:
http://www.consensual-living.com
Pat
>You are welcome to explore mindful parenting on the Consensual Living
> Where does one find out more about mindful parenting?
>
>
yahoogroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/
Consensual living is a process, a philosophy, a mindset by which we
seek to live in harmony with our families and community. It involves
finding mutually agreed upon solutions, where the needs of both
parties are not only considered but addressed. Everyone's wants and
needs are equally valid, regardless of age. Conflicting wants or needs
are discussed and mutually agreeable solutions are created or
negotiated which meet the underlying needs of all parties. Beginners
to this concept are welcome to join this list, living consensually is
an ongoing process of discovery. We ask that you be open to or on the
path toward living consensually. We hope to explore the issues by
asking questions, and sharing our experiences. Parenting is a
sensitive issue for many people but we are all here to practice this
process, and can do so if the environment remains one of respect,
compassion, exploration and understanding. If you would like more
information about Consensual Living or would like to sign up for the
Consensual Living Newsletter, please visit our web site:
http://www.consensual-living.com
Pat
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: avd@...
Where does one find out more about mindful parenting?
=-=-=
Here's a pretty goo dplace! <G>
Also [email protected]
Best book? BY FAR: Rue Kream's Parentng a Free Child, An Unschooled
Life available at http://www.freechild.info/
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
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From: avd@...
Where does one find out more about mindful parenting?
=-=-=
Here's a pretty goo dplace! <G>
Also [email protected]
Best book? BY FAR: Rue Kream's Parentng a Free Child, An Unschooled
Life available at http://www.freechild.info/
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Joanne
--- In [email protected], "A Voss Dolce" <avd@...>
wrote: Where does one find out more about mindful parenting? >>>>
Hi Amy,
You can start right here. :-) Search the archives and you'll find this
topic intertwined in so many discussions here. Maybe ask a question or
talk about what you'd like to change. :-)
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (14)
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
wrote: Where does one find out more about mindful parenting? >>>>
Hi Amy,
You can start right here. :-) Search the archives and you'll find this
topic intertwined in so many discussions here. Maybe ask a question or
talk about what you'd like to change. :-)
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (14)
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: veronikat@...
This seems to have become a semantic discussion to some extent. (One
definition of the word "rule" is "a principle," so one could argue that
if
you live by principles, you are living by rules.)
-=-=-=-=-
Examining the words a bit more might make it clearer.
We can help.
-=-=-=-=-
I'm hearing that most of you would not simply allow your child to be
loud
late at night or do something they don't realize is dangerous.
-=-=-=-
See? Although, by law, I DO have the right to allow and not allow my
children to do all sorts of things, It's NOT that I "simply would not
allow" it. It's that *I* don't need to. We all understand that it's not
OK to disturb others' sleep. And it's not just being loud at
night---it's also when someone's napping at 2:00pm. That's respect.
It's not a rule.
I don't "not allow" them to do things they don't realize are dangerous.
We talk about the things. We try to find solutions or alternatives. We
work together. I *trust* that they don't *want* to do dangerous things
or harm themselves or others. They trust *me* to keep them safe. No
rules, just trust.
-=-=-=-=-
Indeed you are not permissive.
-=-=-=-
Yeah, we know. <g> But we are perceived as being permissive.
-=-=-=-
You go about guiding the child not through setting
arbitrary rules (not something I ever suggested BTW), but by discussion
that
furthers your child's understanding, for example.
-=-=-=-
Right---but we still "allow" them to make their own decisions, even if
it's not the one we'd chose---*there's* the rub! <bwg>
-=-=-=-=-
So guidance seems to be a big part of unschooling, and that was really
my
question.
-=-=-=-
Yes, but not guidance towards what we know is the only
way/answer/decision. Our children may make a different choice. We need
to understand and respect and trust that that is OK.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: veronikat@...
This seems to have become a semantic discussion to some extent. (One
definition of the word "rule" is "a principle," so one could argue that
if
you live by principles, you are living by rules.)
-=-=-=-=-
Examining the words a bit more might make it clearer.
We can help.
-=-=-=-=-
I'm hearing that most of you would not simply allow your child to be
loud
late at night or do something they don't realize is dangerous.
-=-=-=-
See? Although, by law, I DO have the right to allow and not allow my
children to do all sorts of things, It's NOT that I "simply would not
allow" it. It's that *I* don't need to. We all understand that it's not
OK to disturb others' sleep. And it's not just being loud at
night---it's also when someone's napping at 2:00pm. That's respect.
It's not a rule.
I don't "not allow" them to do things they don't realize are dangerous.
We talk about the things. We try to find solutions or alternatives. We
work together. I *trust* that they don't *want* to do dangerous things
or harm themselves or others. They trust *me* to keep them safe. No
rules, just trust.
-=-=-=-=-
Indeed you are not permissive.
-=-=-=-
Yeah, we know. <g> But we are perceived as being permissive.
-=-=-=-
You go about guiding the child not through setting
arbitrary rules (not something I ever suggested BTW), but by discussion
that
furthers your child's understanding, for example.
-=-=-=-
Right---but we still "allow" them to make their own decisions, even if
it's not the one we'd chose---*there's* the rub! <bwg>
-=-=-=-=-
So guidance seems to be a big part of unschooling, and that was really
my
question.
-=-=-=-
Yes, but not guidance towards what we know is the only
way/answer/decision. Our children may make a different choice. We need
to understand and respect and trust that that is OK.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: veronikat@...
This seems to have become a semantic discussion to some extent. (One
definition of the word "rule" is "a principle," so one could argue that
if you live by principles, you are living by rules.)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
One definition of the word "collie" is "a dog," so one could argue that
if you live with a dog, you are living with a collie.
My beagle would disagree.
Semantics are important when we're discussing how to change our
thinking.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: veronikat@...
This seems to have become a semantic discussion to some extent. (One
definition of the word "rule" is "a principle," so one could argue that
if you live by principles, you are living by rules.)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
One definition of the word "collie" is "a dog," so one could argue that
if you live with a dog, you are living with a collie.
My beagle would disagree.
Semantics are important when we're discussing how to change our
thinking.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "Veronika T"
<veronikat@...> wrote:
effect the way we think about things. For a long time learning
about unschooling I felt like I had to translate into a different
language. Ideas that had previously made sense to me had
connotations I hadn't thought of before and I was baffled, trying to
express what I thought I knew. Somewhere along the way I started
*thinking* in this weird other parenting language.
boards and websites to get a better understanding of the ....hmmm,
jargon, for want of a better word, of unschooling. "Rules-vs-
principles" is a good example:
http://sandradodd.com/rules
Otherwise, this kind of discussion can end up sounding like a chef
and baseball team owner arguing about how much one can expect to pay
for a new pitcher.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
<veronikat@...> wrote:
>Its certainly about language. Words and the ways we use them can
> Seriously - I get it. Again this is becoming about semantics.
effect the way we think about things. For a long time learning
about unschooling I felt like I had to translate into a different
language. Ideas that had previously made sense to me had
connotations I hadn't thought of before and I was baffled, trying to
express what I thought I knew. Somewhere along the way I started
*thinking* in this weird other parenting language.
> I may not be the only one who needs to change my thinking.It might be helpful to do some more reading on the unschooling
boards and websites to get a better understanding of the ....hmmm,
jargon, for want of a better word, of unschooling. "Rules-vs-
principles" is a good example:
http://sandradodd.com/rules
Otherwise, this kind of discussion can end up sounding like a chef
and baseball team owner arguing about how much one can expect to pay
for a new pitcher.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
Tonya Matthews
> That's wickid funny!! *LMAO*I like that!!
~ Tonya
> Otherwise, this kind of discussion can end up sounding like a chef
> and baseball team owner arguing about how much one can expect to pay
> for a new pitcher.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 24, 2007, at 9:12 AM, Veronika T wrote:
is words, then what our words mean to others is about as important as
it comes. No one can say anything meaningful if one person is saying
blue and many people are picturing green!
in ways create an image in others heads that matches as clearly as
possible the image we're picturing. We shouldn't require others to
guess what we really mean from what we've unclearly written. We
shouldn't require others to spend a lot of time asking questions to
clarify. If we've said something that didn't come across as we
intended, it's our responsibility, not the readers.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Seriously - I get it. Again this is becoming about semantics.On a list where the only thing people have to understand each other
is words, then what our words mean to others is about as important as
it comes. No one can say anything meaningful if one person is saying
blue and many people are picturing green!
> When I said, "not simply allow" I did not mean, "disallow."In communication, it's our responsibility to put our ideas out there
in ways create an image in others heads that matches as clearly as
possible the image we're picturing. We shouldn't require others to
guess what we really mean from what we've unclearly written. We
shouldn't require others to spend a lot of time asking questions to
clarify. If we've said something that didn't come across as we
intended, it's our responsibility, not the readers.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]