mammaholt

Hello everyone,

I've been
lurking...absorbing...celebrating...wondering...questioning. I feel
I'm experiencing a paradigm shift as maybe never before. Whew.

I have a lot to say and a lot of questions to ask, but I'd like to
start slowly with just a couple of pressing ones.

I'm finding myself resisting some issues, but it has dawned on me
that perhaps I might need to consider my child's age when approaching
some things. My precocious son is almost 3-years old... I got really
excited about this stuff and started letting him choose his own
bedtime and food (these were the only 2 areas where we were having
issues with each other). It was....hmmmm, not so pretty. The poor
thing was just sugared up out of his mind constantly and couldn't
sleep and then would sleep 3 hours in the middle of the day(this was
good! lol) and then not at night and he seemed really unhappy and
irritable and actually kind of freaked out. If he had not seemed so
misreable I think could have just gone with it, but I finally had to
step back and call it a day FOR NOW because he was really struggling.

Can you guys help me with this? How can I balance this now? Right
now I'm finding that I'm just all over the place...one day letting
him eat tons of sugar and then feeling remorseful and making deals
the next day (ugh) and I *know* this can't be good. HELP.

OK, and one more thing, HOW do you guys *make* yourselves play for
hours on end with toys that YOU find totally uninteresting? We're
plagued with construction vehicles...I can last about 1/4 of the day
and then I feel like my head is going to explode. I just don't enjoy
it. I WANT to and I pretend to and I'm a great player...I would just
like to find a way to really get into it.

Thank you!


Blessings,

Michele
Mom to Finnigan 2.10

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "mammaholt"
<micheleholt@...> wrote:
>> My precocious son is almost 3-years old... I got really
> excited about this stuff and started letting him choose his own
> bedtime and food (these were the only 2 areas where we were having
> issues with each other). It was....hmmmm, not so pretty.

Oops! Sounds like maybe you dumped too much on him all at once.
Promoting autonomy isn't quite the same as handing a child total
independance.

>The poor
> thing was just sugared up out of his mind constantly and couldn't
> sleep and then would sleep 3 hours in the middle of the day

One thing I'd like to point out is that by dropping limitations on
food and sleep at the same time you don't really know if he
was "sugared out of his mind" or exhausted past the point of calming
down, or just freaked out that mom wasn't helping him figure things
out anymore.

> Can you guys help me with this? How can I balance this now? Right
> now I'm finding that I'm just all over the place...one day letting
> him eat tons of sugar and then feeling remorseful and making deals
> the next day (ugh) and I *know* this can't be good. HELP.

Rather than being "all over the place", go back to whatever you were
doing already for a week or so. Consistency *is* important, even wrt
autonomy - maybe especially wrt autonomy. Once you have some
equilibrium, look at what "works" and what doesn't seem to work and
see if you can form some theories about why. Think about why you are
wanting to drop limits in the first place - what do you think your
son will gain from the experience? Read more about Principles. Then
pick one thing to start saying "yes" about more, rather than
dropping all the limits all at once.

There's a learning curve in here for *you* in terms of figuring out
how to help your kid explore more of the world gently and safely in
ways that aren't utterly overwhelming to him. That's my *why* wrt to
unschooling things like food, sleep, media... (just to name the
scary ones!) I want to help my kids explore and learn as much as
they desire in ways that are safe and supportive, with me as a
resource and backup, rather than an adversary.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Julie Peters

> OK, and one more thing, HOW do you guys *make* yourselves play for
> hours on end with toys that YOU find totally uninteresting? We're
> plagued with construction vehicles...I can last about 1/4 of the day
> and then I feel like my head is going to explode. I just don't enjoy
> it. I WANT to and I pretend to and I'm a great player...I would just
> like to find a way to really get into it.


We too were plagued with constuction vehicles, cars, legos, etc. when
my son was that age...still are and he's now 10. I have never been
very creative/playful though I wish I was. So I can really understand
where you're at right now.

Have you tried to play his game for a while then ask him to play
*your* game for a while? You know, taking turns. You could say, "I'm
going to play cars with you for an hour, then I'm going to cook
something in the kitchen. You are more than welcome to join me, I'll
show you how to 'play' my game." Offer to watch a video he likes,
then you invite him to watch a show you like...etc.

I don't think you should feel like *your* only option is to play
construction all day. In my opinion, it's your only option because
you've made it that way. Go to the park, movies, store, library, a
friend's, take a walk, make a cake, sing songs, paint, etc. Break the
day up into segments...ones that vary the construction vehicle theme.
This may help...the both of you...you'll get variety and your son may
find additional interests.

Even varying the places/ways you play construction, might give you the
variety you are looking for. Take the toys outside and dig in the
dirt...use them to help plant flowers, use laundry to make piles that
need to be moved...use the toys to load the baskets, etc. Drive by
construction yards and talk about the real life vehicles, find someone
who would be willing to give your son a site tour/ride on a bulldozer,
get some construction videos for him to watch while you do something
else, etc.

There are many options...you just have to "find/create" them. I don't
feel you "have" to do what he does 24/7...you have the right to enjoy
playtime, too. The key is finding something you both find interesting
and enjoy...together. Right now, I think all you guys need is broader
horizons. A three year old only knows what you've exposed him
to...expose him to more, a variety of things. He'll pick up other
interests along the way...though his favorite may remain construction.

HTH,
Julie Peters

Marieke Willis

Hi, I'm also new to this list...

--- mammaholt <micheleholt@...> wrote:
> I started letting him choose his own
> bedtime and food (these were the only 2 areas where we were having
> issues with each other). It was....hmmmm, not so pretty. The poor
> thing was just sugared up out of his mind constantly...

Lettimg him choose his own food does not equate to giving him 100%
freedom as to what he wants to eat, now does it? Especially not for a
2yo. Just like you don't give you kid the option of eating magic
brownies or psychedelic mushrooms (I assume), you could refuse to give
your kid the option of eating other things which are harmful to him,
such as sugar. Sugar is bad for people, especially little kids, while
being addictive to some degree, and doesn't have any nutritional value
other than calories, which are easy enough to get in other ways.

How about letting your son choose what he wants to eat like this: "Do
you want a banana, or an apple, or strawberries or a muesli bar?".
Don't even give the kid too many options at 2yo, or you'll overload
him.

This is of course not going to go over very well if you yourself only
eat sugary things, but if you give the right example it should work.

Marieke



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Susan

> I'm finding that I'm just all over the place...one day letting
> him eat tons of sugar and then feeling remorseful and making deals
> the next day (ugh) and I *know* this can't be good. HELP.

Hi, I'm new here, too, so I hope I'm not overstepping by offering a
suggestion. Like someone else said, at his age you could probably give
choices rather than watching him eat through a jar of candy. You could
say, "I'm going fix chicken or spaghetti for dinner. Which one would
you like tonight?"

You could also put out a variety of healthy snacks that are available
anytime and in any amount. He'll know anything you put in that bowl is
okay to eat whenever he wants. Then steadily widen his choices and
expand the options being offered until everything is available as an
option and he's able to make decisions without feeling overwhelmed.

I can imagine that at 2 years old the world seems really, really big
and I wouldn't have a clue what all my choices would be. You have to
help him make the transition and perhaps he needs to ease into it. You
have to help him make connections (for example, between what he eats
and how he feels). He needs you to help him understand his body and
these new experiences.

-- Susan

mammaholt

Thank you both for your thougtful responses. To answer some of your
questions...

I decided to let him choose his own bedtime and food because those
are the only areas where we have "issues." I thought that by letting
him take some control we might avoid the conflicts that often arise
around both those issues. I just went back to our usual...saying yes
most of the time unless it is really obvious that he is exhausted or
had too much sugar. We're doing OK...he seems to be liking choosing
whether to nap or not and usually chooses TO.

I should clarify my earlier post...playing with construction toys is
not *all* we do...oh, lordy, no. I had to lol when I realized that my
post might have come off that way. We are a magical, creative, active
family. We do SO many fantastic and wonderful things...I just meant
that his favorite *toys* are construction toys and I have a hard time
staying with the games too long. I do enjoy them more when we're
outside in the sand or mud or water. Today we took the city bus,
just for fun, and went to the library and then downtown with the
intent of going to the Texas History Museum (we live in Austin) to
see bugs and dinosaurs. On the way we found a big construction site
and stopped there for some time. We watched a building being built
and it was cool. One guy came over and talked to Finn and let him
wear his hard hat. Super fun and interesting. Then we went and got
pizza and some lemonade and watched some skateboarders and talked
about homeless kids. Came home, took a nap, then turned the dining
room table into a ping-pong table and played till Dad came home from
work. A typical, fun day for us.

That's a really good idea to ask him to play *my* games for awhile. I
never thought of taking turns with games. I think it I put it like
that he'd be game (pun intended)!

I got "Unconditional Parenting" today...just mind blowing.

Thanks to all for all your wisdom.

Blessings,
Michele
Mama to Finnigan (almost 3)
--- In [email protected], "Julie Peters"
<julieannpeters@...> wrote:
>
> > OK, and one more thing, HOW do you guys *make* yourselves play
for
> > hours on end with toys that YOU find totally uninteresting? We're
> > plagued with construction vehicles...I can last about 1/4 of the
day
> > and then I feel like my head is going to explode. I just don't
enjoy
> > it. I WANT to and I pretend to and I'm a great player...I would
just
> > like to find a way to really get into it.
>
>
> We too were plagued with constuction vehicles, cars, legos, etc.
when
> my son was that age...still are and he's now 10. I have never been
> very creative/playful though I wish I was. So I can really
understand
> where you're at right now.
>
> Have you tried to play his game for a while then ask him to play
> *your* game for a while? You know, taking turns. You could
say, "I'm
> going to play cars with you for an hour, then I'm going to cook
> something in the kitchen. You are more than welcome to join me,
I'll
> show you how to 'play' my game." Offer to watch a video he likes,
> then you invite him to watch a show you like...etc.
>
> I don't think you should feel like *your* only option is to play
> construction all day. In my opinion, it's your only option because
> you've made it that way. Go to the park, movies, store, library, a
> friend's, take a walk, make a cake, sing songs, paint, etc. Break
the
> day up into segments...ones that vary the construction vehicle
theme.
> This may help...the both of you...you'll get variety and your son
may
> find additional interests.
>
> Even varying the places/ways you play construction, might give you
the
> variety you are looking for. Take the toys outside and dig in the
> dirt...use them to help plant flowers, use laundry to make piles
that
> need to be moved...use the toys to load the baskets, etc. Drive by
> construction yards and talk about the real life vehicles, find
someone
> who would be willing to give your son a site tour/ride on a
bulldozer,
> get some construction videos for him to watch while you do
something
> else, etc.
>
> There are many options...you just have to "find/create" them. I
don't
> feel you "have" to do what he does 24/7...you have the right to
enjoy
> playtime, too. The key is finding something you both find
interesting
> and enjoy...together. Right now, I think all you guys need is
broader
> horizons. A three year old only knows what you've exposed him
> to...expose him to more, a variety of things. He'll pick up other
> interests along the way...though his favorite may remain
construction.
>
> HTH,
> Julie Peters
>

mammaholt

Thanks for your input.

Well, we actually eat very healthfully...the sweets that we have in
our house are things like organic or homemade cookies, vanilla
yogurt, chocolate covered raisins, popscicles...that kind of stuff.
It's just that when I say "Would you like a banana or an apple or
some yogurt?" he'll say "Chocolate raisins!" and that will go on
allll day. He just wants the chocolate and the sweets. Nothing
*truly* unhealthy, it's just a matter of quantity. I'm very concerned
about his health and food choices...I think I just need to lighten up
a little and know that he has a lot of healthy food in his
repetoire. We did get a "Little Bear" book that tells about when LB
ate too much sugar how ikky he felt. Finny thought it was hilarious
and then asked for all the food that was in the book! LOL.

--- In [email protected], Susan <SusanYvonne@...>
wrote:
>
> > I'm finding that I'm just all over the place...one day letting
> > him eat tons of sugar and then feeling remorseful and making deals
> > the next day (ugh) and I *know* this can't be good. HELP.
>
> Hi, I'm new here, too, so I hope I'm not overstepping by offering a
> suggestion. Like someone else said, at his age you could probably
give
> choices rather than watching him eat through a jar of candy. You
could
> say, "I'm going fix chicken or spaghetti for dinner. Which one would
> you like tonight?"
>
> You could also put out a variety of healthy snacks that are
available
> anytime and in any amount. He'll know anything you put in that bowl
is
> okay to eat whenever he wants. Then steadily widen his choices and
> expand the options being offered until everything is available as an
> option and he's able to make decisions without feeling overwhelmed.
>
> I can imagine that at 2 years old the world seems really, really big
> and I wouldn't have a clue what all my choices would be. You have to
> help him make the transition and perhaps he needs to ease into it.
You
> have to help him make connections (for example, between what he eats
> and how he feels). He needs you to help him understand his body and
> these new experiences.
>
> -- Susan
>

mammaholt

HAHAH pot brownies! Might be a good idea around bedtime! LOL just
joking.

Oh yea, I think sugar is relatively wretched food product. I'm not
totally opposed to it cuz he's a kid and they love it and it's fun.
It's just quantity and the relentless begging for it even though we
do let him have some. We eat popscicles for breakfast almost every
day...homemade ones, but still. We'll have one and then he'll ask for
another and another and another and another. AGGGGG.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Michele
Mama to Finnigan (almost 3) --- In [email protected],
Marieke Willis <luuknam@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I'm also new to this list...
>
> --- mammaholt <micheleholt@...> wrote:
> > I started letting him choose his own
> > bedtime and food (these were the only 2 areas where we were
having
> > issues with each other). It was....hmmmm, not so pretty. The poor
> > thing was just sugared up out of his mind constantly...
>
> Lettimg him choose his own food does not equate to giving him 100%
> freedom as to what he wants to eat, now does it? Especially not for
a
> 2yo. Just like you don't give you kid the option of eating magic
> brownies or psychedelic mushrooms (I assume), you could refuse to
give
> your kid the option of eating other things which are harmful to him,
> such as sugar. Sugar is bad for people, especially little kids,
while
> being addictive to some degree, and doesn't have any nutritional
value
> other than calories, which are easy enough to get in other ways.
>
> How about letting your son choose what he wants to eat like
this: "Do
> you want a banana, or an apple, or strawberries or a muesli bar?".
> Don't even give the kid too many options at 2yo, or you'll overload
> him.
>
> This is of course not going to go over very well if you yourself
only
> eat sugary things, but if you give the right example it should
work.
>
> Marieke
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
______________
> Cheap talk?
> Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
> http://voice.yahoo.com
>

Deb Lewis

***The poor thing was just sugared up out of his mind constantly and
couldn't
sleep and then would sleep 3 hours in the middle of the day(this was
good! lol) and then not at night and he seemed really unhappy and
irritable and actually kind of freaked out. ***

There are a lot of myths about sugar that are unproven, scientifically.
I'm talking about real science and not hocus pocus science.
But food choice and bedtime choice does not mean leaving a little kid alone
to figure the world out on his own.
Little kids need moms to be preparing and frequently offering (taking food
right to the kid, wherever he is) nutritious foods in little kid portions,
nutritious snacks, all day long, so that they can maintain their energy
levels. And they need us to make the house a quiet restful place in the
evening so sleep can come naturally.

***If he had not seemed so
misreable I think could have just gone with it, but I finally had to
step back and call it a day FOR NOW because he was really struggling.***

He needed your help!

***Can you guys help me with this? How can I balance this now? Right
now I'm finding that I'm just all over the place...one day letting
him eat tons of sugar and then feeling remorseful and making deals
the next day (ugh) and I *know* this can't be good. HELP.***

What do you eat? How do you eat?
Make sure you have lots of foods he enjoys. Make sure you give him food
frequently throughout the day. Be with him. Notice if he's getting tired,
notice when he last ate, pay attention to his protein intake and make sure
you are offering foods often, foods high in protein so that he can maintain
his energy levels.

What did you do before?

If you have healthy food easily available in your house and if you are
eating in a healthy way, then help your son get as much food as he needs.
He's too little to tell you. He's too little to understand all the
different ways out bodies signal us that we're running out of energy. In
a home where mom and dad eat well, and nutritious food is always available -
offered frequently (taken right to the kid) - to a child, a child will eat
well even if he has access to sweets.

If his easiest access is sweets that's what he'll eat. He's two. He can't
go to the store and get sweets on his own so if he's only eating sweets
that's your responsibility. It's your responsibility to make sure he's
getting nutritious foods so that when he chooses sweets it's not "instead
of" other things but "in addition to" his healthy diet. For most people
there are times when we want sweet things more than other times, or when
something is tasting especially wonderful and we eat it frequently until
we're satisfied. That's normal. But you should be taking food to him while
he plays, and taking food to him while he's watching his favorite movie,
etc.

Choice with a two year old isn't going to look like choice with a ten year
old. A two year old doesn't know what choices he has. Making a choice
looks like eating what he likes or refusing what he doesn't want. If you're
offering food, as in telling him he can have noodles, that doesn't mean
much to a two year old. Pay attention to what he likes. Take that food
right to him. If he likes cheese, take little cubes of cheese to him when
he's playing. If he likes crackers, take him crackers. If he likes peanut
butter and jelly, take teeny little sandwiches he can eat in one bite.
Don't wait until he's obviously hungry or cranky. Be proactive. Don't
take food *you* think he should have if you *know* he doesn't like it. Take
him foods he likes.

About betimes: Pay attention to his signals. When he is getting tired,
quiet your house. Turn down the lights and TV. Turn up the heat. Get him
into some comfy clothes or pajama's, if he wants to. Nurse him or rock him
if he wants that. Hold him while he watches a familiar and sweet movie.
Make his evening *sleep friendly*. Play with him quietly if he wants to
play. Make your time with him about his comfort. Take him to bed with
you, or let him fall asleep on the sofa next to you. You'll have to try
different things to see what comforts him and helps him want to sleep.

What was his bedtime routine like before? Can you continue with the parts
of that routine that he enjoyed? If there were parts he resisted, pay
attention to that. If he resisted, he resisted for a good reason, whether
mom thinks it's a good reason or not. <g>


Deb Lewis

Deb Lewis

*** Just like you don't give you kid the option of eating magic
brownies or psychedelic mushrooms (I assume), you could refuse to give
your kid the option of eating other things which are harmful to him,
such as sugar.***

This is an example of extreme thinking that isn't useful. It's not a good
analogy. The psilocybe mushrooms to which you are referring are
hallucinogenic and probably illegal to buy or sell or possess in most
states. (I think New Mexico is one exception) Sugar is none of those
things.

While some people feel sugar is not suitable for human consumption humans
have nevertheless been consuming sugar for thousands of years, in it's
natural form and later in it's processed form. And while many people
claim sugar is deadly the life expectancy of humans, including those who eat
sugar, is greater than it has ever been since we've been keeping records.

The danger of vilifying sugar is that when our kids want sweets they will
either have to overcome their feelings of guilt about eating something mom
objects to or they will deny themselves a food they want. The risk of
developing food issues or eating disorders is so much greater when the
consumption of food is turned into a psychological game by parents.

The other danger in vilifying sugar is that when kids make their own sugar
discoveries, mom's who say "sugar will kill you" turn out to be liars.
When a child spends the night with a friend and they eat cookies and drink
soda and wake up the next morning not corpses, mom told a lie.

Mom's who say "sugar is bad for you" will look like they don't know what
they're talking about when healthy friends or extended family members eat
sugary foods.

The risk to the parent/child relationship is greater than the supposed risks
of sugar.

Deb Lewis

Deb Lewis

***It's just that when I say "Would you like a banana or an apple or
some yogurt?" he'll say "Chocolate raisins!" and that will go on
allll day. He just wants the chocolate and the sweets. ***

Bananas are sweet. Apples are sweet. Why are those better choices than
raisins?
Put food right in front of him. Put a plate of apples and cheese cubes and
crackers and bananas and raisins and whatever else he likes right in front
of him, right beside him, wherever he is and let him eat what he wants.

Dylan liked apples dipped in peanut butter. He liked little bite sized
hummus sandwiches. He liked noodles with sesame ginger sauce that he could
thread through his toes and then eat. <g>

Deb Lewis

Marieke Willis

--- Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...> wrote:
> *** Just like you don't give you kid the option of eating magic
> brownies or psychedelic mushrooms (I assume), you could refuse to
> give
> your kid the option of eating other things which are harmful to him,
> such as sugar.***
>
> This is an example of extreme thinking that isn't useful.

Perhaps not useful to everybody, but probably useful to some people; it
depends.

> It's not a good
> analogy. The psilocybe mushrooms to which you are referring are
> hallucinogenic and probably illegal to buy or sell or possess in most

> states. (I think New Mexico is one exception) Sugar is none of
> those things.

Okay... alcohol is not illegal to buy and possess but still not a good
idea to feed your kid a lot of. And don't tell me that it's illegal to
buy it when you're under age X, because it used to be perfectly legal
to buy it at age 2 if you wanted to/were able to, and it still is not
illegal to feed it to your kids. Just because something isn't illegal
at some point in time doesn't mean it's good.

> While some people feel sugar is not suitable for human consumption
> humans
> have nevertheless been consuming sugar for thousands of years, in
> it's
> natural form and later in it's processed form. And while many
> people
> claim sugar is deadly the life expectancy of humans, including those
> who eat
> sugar, is greater than it has ever been since we've been keeping
> records.

Which doesn't mean that sugar helped increased that life expectancy.
Also, I didn't say sugar is deadly (trust me, I've had sugar and I'm
still alive); I said sugar is harmful, which it *is*. Obesity and
diabetes are many times more common nowadays than ever, especially in
the USA. There's pretty much two things that contribute to that: lack
of exercise and consumption of unhealthy foods, such as sugar-this and
sugar-that.

> The danger of vilifying sugar is that when our kids want sweets they
> will
> either have to overcome their feelings of guilt about eating
> something mom
> objects to or they will deny themselves a food they want. The risk
> of
> developing food issues or eating disorders is so much greater when
> the
> consumption of food is turned into a psychological game by parents.

I'm not talking about turning it into a game; I'm talking about not
giving your kids harmful foods when they're too small to make decisions
concerning their health themselves. A game implies that what the kid
does has some sort of influence on whether it gets the food or not: "if
you're a good girl I'll give you a cookie", or: "if you don't finish
your food you won't get dessert". That's playing games. I'm also not
saying you should make the kid feel guilty about wanting some food, I'm
just saying that you shouldn't give it to them.

> The other danger in vilifying sugar is that when kids make their own
> sugar
> discoveries, mom's who say "sugar will kill you" turn out to be
> liars.
> When a child spends the night with a friend and they eat cookies and
> drink
> soda and wake up the next morning not corpses, mom told a lie.

Then don't say it will kill you. Duh. Just like cigarettes won't kill
you. I've never had a cigarette, but I bet that if I'd had one I'd
still be alive. Even if I'd spent an entire night smoking cigarettes at
a friend's house I'd probably still be alive. Does that mean that
cigarettes are hence okay?

> Mom's who say "sugar is bad for you" will look like they don't know
> what
> they're talking about when healthy friends or extended family members
> eat sugary foods.

And this is different from the cigarettes scenario how, exactly?

> The risk to the parent/child relationship is greater than the
> supposed risks of sugar.
> Deb Lewis

I think that that depends on how you present the issue to your kids. If
you're going to lie to your kid and say sugar is deadly, obviously
you're going to damage the relationship. But your obese 10yo is
probably not really going to have such a great relationship with you
either, if it got obese because you allowed it to eat sugar-only all
day long. Really, the number of obese kids in the USA is astonishing,
and the main cause of that obesity is parents who are
unwilling/incapable of setting boundaries to kids who need them. Yes,
your 2yo might currently be burning all those calories, but in the
meanwhile it's getting into the habit of eating crap, and some day it
will probably not be growing as fast and probably not burn all those
empty calories.

Marieke
--
My parents thought it was 'cute' to teach me how to eat cake and
ice-cream. I can assure you, it's not cute anymore. :(



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Marieke Willis

--- Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...> wrote:
> ***It's just that when I say "Would you like a banana or an apple or
> some yogurt?" he'll say "Chocolate raisins!" and that will go on
> allll day. He just wants the chocolate and the sweets. ***
>
> Bananas are sweet. Apples are sweet. Why are those better choices
> than raisins?

Than *chocolate* raisins. I think the stress was on the chocolate, not
on the raisins. Chocolate raisins have about as much chocolate in 'm as
raisins, iirc.

Marieke



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Ren Allen

~~But your obese 10yo is
probably not really going to have such a great relationship with you
either, if it got obese because you allowed it to eat sugar-only all
day long. ~~

A child that eats sugar is not going to magically turn obese. I have
four children that choose exactly what they eat (except tonight,
because we're low on groceries and I really, really need to make a
grocery run) and ares skinny as rails. Genetics has a LOT more to do
with it than sugar. I eat whatever I want, including rich cream, sugar
and other "no-no's", plus a lot of healthy foods and have never had
any problem with weight.

Show me a child that will eat sugar all day long for more than a day!
It's just not realistic. It feels really crappy to eat nothing but
sugar and kids figure that out pretty quickly.

We're not talking about parents leaving their children to figure all
this out on their own. We're talking about aware/mindful parents
helping their children navigate this world while giving them freedom
of choice. There's a big difference. I can't imagine my kids eating
nothing but sugar on ANY given day, though they love candy and other
"treats". After they've had some sugary foods, they'll say things like
"I really need some protein" or "I need some REAL (meaning hot and/or
protein rich) food Mom".

Anyone that thinks sugar is so horrible should really taste
breastmilk. It's nastily sweet. And the human body converts any and
all sugars to glucose. We seem to be designed to like sweets....

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Lalita

>Anyone that thinks sugar is so horrible should really taste
breastmilk. It's nastily sweet. And the human body converts any and
all sugars to glucose. We seem to be designed to like sweets....<

Also too, human breastmilk has the highest levels of lactose (sugar) of any milk out there because the human brain can only survive on glucose (sugar). :)

Lalita



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***Perhaps not useful to everybody, but probably useful to some people; it
depends.***

*Useful*& is when we write about ideas that will help people understand
unschooling. Comparing food to controlled substances and possibly
inspiring fear by such a comparison isn't useful on an unschooling list.

***I'm talking about not
giving your kids harmful foods when they're too small to make decisions
concerning their health themselves.***

The poster was talking about chocolate covered raisins, organic homemade
cookies and yogurt. Hardly harmful. Definitely not anything like a
controlled substance.

Let's keep perspective. Little kids who have access to a wide variety of
foods will eat well. And even if a child ate only chocolate covered raisins
for days on end, he would suffer no lasting ill effects.

If a mom only gives a kid chocolate covered raisins to eat, that's what
he'll eat.
"Offering" food is not the same as giving food. Offering other
foods when the most recent sensory food input was chocolate covered raisins
means almost nothing. Being able to see, touch and smell foods that are
right in front of a little child gives him a real choice. And he might
still choose the raisins. But given a variety of foods to choose from he
will eventually choose to eat something else.

***I'm also not saying you should make the kid feel guilty about wanting
some food, I'm just saying that you shouldn't give it to them.***

And that method of parenting is available to every parent here, but
presumably the people who are here want to move toward unschooling. Parents
absolutely can limit or forbid certain foods. But what happens when a child
tastes foods elsewhere and asks for them at home? A mom who fears sugar
might feel like she needs to explain her position. This is what we talk
about frequently on unschooling lists. There will be a time when what a
child wants will be different from what the mom wants for that child. If
one of the goals of unschooling is to help our kids get what they want, then
moms who have forbidden or limited the thing their children want are going
to be in conflict with their kids. Mainstream parenting takes for granted
that parents and kids will be in
conflict. We're working for something else.

What has happened in many unschooling homes where sweet foods are treated
the same as other foods is that sweets hold no special powers over kids.

What has happened in many homes where sweets are limited or forbidden is
sweets become a coveted thing, something to get and gobble down as fast as
possible.

***If you're going to lie to your kid and say sugar is deadly, obviously
you're going to damage the relationship. ***

Which is why I cautioned against the extreme comparison of sugar to an
hallucinogenic, controlled substance.

When we exaggerate the effects of foods (or drugs, or alcohol) we risk
losing our credibility. There will be a time when a child knows someone who
has tried that thing, or tries it himself, and discovers for himself that
the claims and cautions were overstated.

***Really, the number of obese kids in the USA is astonishing,
and the main cause of that obesity is parents who are
unwilling/incapable of setting boundaries to kids who need them.***

A rule against sugar will not prevent a child who wants sweets from eating
them. A healthy relationship with food, where sugar is not treated like a
drug will do more for a child's ability to make good food choices than any
amount of parental limiting or boundary setting.

Deb Lewis

Brandie Valenzuela

***Really, the number of obese kids in the USA is astonishing,
and the main cause of that obesity is parents who are
unwilling/incapable of setting boundaries to kids who need them.***

I grew up in a food-strict home. We were forbidden to help ourselves to any
type of food. And much of the food in our home was typically "good" for
you. If my parents bought something like cookies, or other individual items
(hot chocolate packets, etc.), they counted each and every one (writing the
number left on the label or box) to make sure we didn't get into them
without asking. And there was really no point in asking because you would
be told no almost everytime. Halloween candy was handed out maybe 2 pieces
a week or so. It last well beyond a year. My parents wanted to control the
food. They wanted 100% control over when we could get "treats", or even the
so-called "good" stuff.

The result? I learned that if I just consumed the whole box of cookies and
destroyed the box, there would be nothing left to count. Most of the time,
they forgot about the whole box (out of sight, out of mind). If they did
ask, you just deny, deny, deny. Or blame it on the dog. LOL

Setting limits and boundaries has nothing to do with kids being obese or
not. If a child wants or NEEDS something, they will find a way to get it.

--
Brandie


Learn about Batten's Disease: http://www.bdsra.org/batten.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christy Mahoney

--- In [email protected], "Brandie Valenzuela"
<brandiev@...> wrote:
>
> ***Really, the number of obese kids in the USA is astonishing,
> and the main cause of that obesity is parents who are
> unwilling/incapable of setting boundaries to kids who need them.***

I don't see how this can be said with any confidence. There are
many many factors. Genetics is certainly a big one, but how about
parents that are rarely home and don't cook, so that a child's diet
is made up of cafeteria food at school and convenience foods at
home? There's also a sedentary lifestyle, which is greatly
reinforced by school. Even with all the talk about getting kids
more active, the fact remains that most kids are stuck in school all
day and then come home to homework. By the time that's done, it's
dark and maybe all they want to do is watch some TV because they
don't have any energy left.

I just heard something about a study that was done regarding obesity
and fear. The researchers found it very interesting that when other
factors were accounted for, the people who lived in fear (dangerous
neighborhoods) had a much higher rate of obesity. Probably not
conclusive, but it suggests that mental state has an effect.

I am from a big family, and I am the only one who is noticably
overweight. We are all pretty big people genetically, but I am the
only one who is fat. Why is that? I have certainly wondered over
the years, and there are probably many reasons. I was raised by the
same parents and with the same food. I think my personality is part
of it, my interest in food,my worrying tendencies, my stress level,
and my underactive thyroid doesn't help :)

My daughter just turned 12, and she is unhappy about being chubby.
She really doesn't eat a lot of sugar. Some, sure, but she has been
a vegetarian for nearly a year and eats a lot more healthily than a
lot of other kids who are skinny. Her body is a lot like her dad's,
and they both retain weight around the middle. She can't help that,
but she hates it anyway.

My husband has a really hard time because he is in the Air Force.
They have certain standards regarding weight and fitness, and these
standards fail to take body type into consideration. He is a
cyclist and rides most days (at least 5 days per week). He has been
very careful about his diet lately, and although he has lost some
weight, he still has quite a bit of fat around his middle. It is
extremely frustrating for him that he failed the Air Force's fitness
test, while his coworkers who don't exercise nearly as much and eat
burgers & fries do fine.

So, no, I don't think that the main cause of obesity is parents who
don't set limits.

-Christy

Ren Allen

~~So, no, I don't think that the main cause of obesity is parents who
don't set limits.~~

I actually believe the opposite, that the ones setting lots of limits
probably contribute to weight problems the MOST. Children having their
diet controlled and portioned leads to problems for many of them. Not
just weight issues, but the overall relationship with food becoming
unhealthy.

I think parents that are unattentive and unaware can contribute to
health problems. But that's not what we're advocating here. Giving
children choices does not equal a lack of involvement and assistance
from parents. Controlling someone's diet does more harm than any
short-term percieved "good".

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Marieke Willis

--- Brandie Valenzuela <brandiev@...> wrote:
> Setting limits and boundaries has nothing to do with kids being obese
> or
> not. If a child wants or NEEDS something, they will find a way to
> get it.

Children do not NEED cookies or candy. If they did, the human race
would never have made it to today.

To Ren's post, I'd like to say that genetics does indeed matter in
whether someone will get fat or not, but that it's not the only factor.
Before I was 6yo, I was so skinny my mom had to sew me clothes because
I wouldn't fit in the ones from the store. Then at some point during
primary school I got into a chocolate milk addiction, even though I was
allowed to drink anything I wanted and we'd always have water,
coolaid-like stuff, fruit juice, normal milk, etc, but I chose to drink
chocolate milk only. Yes, over a liter of chocolate milk a day, 7 days
a week, for years on end. I didn't gain weight quickly, but by the time
I was 15 I was definitely overweight. I quit the chocolate milk
(replaced it with water (although at first I'd get nauseous due to the
low osmolarity)), and I lost it all to the point that I was almost
underweight. Then, I moved out, and I've pretty much been boulimic
(which is worse than being obese), although I've finally managed to
more or less stabilize my weight at a BMI of 29. When I'm
stressed/tired it's hard to grab something healthy to eat, because of
the engrainment of crap as an easy snack.

Either way, I didn't think unschooling necessarily meant an utter lack
of boundaries whatsoever. If my neighbors let their (say, 4yo) kids
climb so high up a tree that if the kid falls it might break its neck,
does that mean I have to allow my (say, 4yo) kid the same 'privilege'
in order to maintain the parent/child relationship? Reasonable
boundaries don't destroy the parent/child relationship, unreasonable
ones do. Now, the question is what's a reasonable boundary or not,
right?

Marieke



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Marieke Willis

--- Christy Mahoney <unschooling1@...> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "Brandie Valenzuela"
> <brandiev@...> wrote:
> >
> > ***Really, the number of obese kids in the USA is astonishing,
> > and the main cause of that obesity is parents who are
> > unwilling/incapable of setting boundaries to kids who need them.***
>
> I don't see how this can be said with any confidence. There are
> many many factors.

You're correct, and I said it a bit too confidently. But I regularly
see fat kids in strollers drinking cola or eating ice-cream and that
just makes me think that lots of parents need to set better
boundaries/standards for their kids. 2yos in strollers don't consumer
those foods unless their parents give it to them.

> I just heard something about a study that was done regarding obesity
> and fear. The researchers found it very interesting that when other
> factors were accounted for, the people who lived in fear (dangerous
> neighborhoods) had a much higher rate of obesity. Probably not
> conclusive, but it suggests that mental state has an effect.

I'd have to take a look at that study, because I can definitely think
of a lot of factors that tend to correlate with dangerous neighborhoods
that they'd need to factor out. As I wrote in my previous post though,
mental state has an effect with me to, and that effect is that I tend
to regress to eating what I've been used to and that's easy. Putting a
piece of candy in your mouth is a lot easier than chewing on an apple.
Early childhood habits are I think important in what people tend to eat
later, especially under stressful circumstances. Sugar gives a nice
'instant' high...

Anyway, when I made the statement about boundaries, I was also thinking
of exercise and junkfood other than sugar, not just sugar.

Marieke



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Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 21, 2007, at 2:09 PM, Ren Allen wrote:

> I actually believe the opposite, that the ones setting lots of limits
> probably contribute to weight problems the MOST.

And another problem is that lots of children naturally put on quite a
bit of weight during the prepubescent years. (Which often also
coincides with more TV watching as they're shifting from kid
interests.) And the parents panic, impose diets and exercise and the
child feels there's something wrong with them when it's just normal
weight gain gearing up for a growth spurt.

My daughter was very round from 10-12 and then shot up and is really
thin now.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa

Brandie,
I wanted to second your story and follow up on it. Our food was carefully restricted, so the
example that my brother and I grew up with is that only grownups could choose to eat
that way. We both eagerly awaited the day in which we turned 18 (or moved out, which
was 16 for me!), so we could buy crap and eat as much of it as we wanted. The result? I
gained so much weight, and still have trouble letting go of the junk food. If it's in the
home, I will eat it until it's gone. if someone else expresses interest in my prefered food, i
get very defensive because I'm worried that I won't get more. I'm THIRTYTWO, and I have
to mentally walk myself through saying "It's okay, I am old enough to drive, I can always
buy more"

On the other hand, after nearly two years of deschooling, our kids have two HUGE bowls of
candy (each holding about twelve pounds)...one from Christmas, and one from Halloween.
They go through phases, eating a few handfuls one day, but then a week without anymore.
We also go through pounds and pounds of fruits and veggies. And of course, there's my
infamous story last year (while we were all still deschooling) when I snapped and told my
son he couldn't have any more veggies until he ate his cake. For snack today, my eleven
year old made pudding in a cloud for everyone. My newly eight year old chopped up
enough apples, oranged, grapes, bananas, strawberries and pineapple for everyone. No
one wanted the pudding. It's still in the fridge, and the fruit is all gone. It balances from
yesterday when they ate through two mega boxes of dingdongs and twinkies. There are
hundreds stories just like that.

Studies are fine, in their place. They do a mediocre job of scaring mainstream parents into
being more conscientious about what their children eat or how much they move. However,
when you've seen it in real life, balance out after a while, you wonder where it came from.
And suddenly the news doesn't hold as much water, when reported that way.
I have seven kids, all of whom are totally in track for height/weight ratio. They have free
choice on eating, watching TV, playing...whatever. Because they are free to choose, not
restrained by concerns for 'if I eat this, where will my next candy come from?', or one from
our not so distant past "Mom, I need my soda now, because we're only allowed one soda a
day, and i haven't had mine" He forced himself to drink an entire soda at 9pm at night,
that he didn't want, that didn't taste good, because he was allowed to have one a day. I'll
not go back to that willingly.

Just two pennies
melissa


--- In [email protected], "Brandie Valenzuela" <brandiev@...> wrote:
> I grew up in a food-strict home. We were forbidden to help ourselves to any
> type of food. And much of the food in our home was typically "good" for
> you. If my parents bought something like cookies, or other individual items
> (hot chocolate packets, etc.)htm

Deb Lewis

***Children do not NEED cookies or candy.***

True! Cookies and candy are not needed to sustain human life. But in
order for humans to be happy some things beyond bare necessities are useful.
I don't need chocolate but it helps make my life more enjoyable. <g>

But we're getting all side tracked with sweets when the real issue isn't
whether a kid needs cookies, the issue is whether what a child wants is
important.

Sometimes it helps to think about how we would feel in the same situation.
If there's something you want - maybe it's a bird feeder (my latest want<g>)
and even though there's enough money for
the feeder and it's not expensive, your partner says to you, "No, you can't
have that. You don't need it." What kinds of feelings might that stir
in you?

I don't *need* another bird feeder. My tiny, little yard is host to
sixteen feeders right now, though some of those are filled with cat food for
the Jays and Magpies and Crows. But I would be hurt if David (dh) said,
"You
don't need that." It would feel like he didn't care about my feelings,
like he felt the pleasure I get from feeding birds isn't important, like he
thought I wasn't smart enough to know I have lots of feeders already,
like he was denying me something without a good reason.

That's what it can feel like to a kid whose mom say's, "You don't need
that."
There are very few things we really need. But our houses are full
of things we like and enjoy and have because the possession of those things
contributes to an easier or happier or more comfortable life.

We eat for nourishment, that's true. But as social animals
we eat for other reasons as well. We eat for comfort, we eat to socialize,
we eat to celebrate, we eat for pleasure. If we took away everything from
our diets that we don't "need" we'd be left with an easily tired of little
bit to
choose from.

So, I believe we do have a *need* for other foods. Not to sustain our life
but to nourish our life in other ways, with pleasure and comfort. I believe
that's why ancient people discovered how to make sweets and wine and beer -
Because humans have more *need* than simply to survive.

I think it's crucial to the success of unschooling to take our children's
wants seriously. What seems like a silly little want to us might be a
*need* for that child. Without our help and support in getting what they
want, even a simple thing could turn into a barrier between parent and
child.

***Either way, I didn't think unschooling necessarily meant an utter lack
of boundaries whatsoever.***

No one is saying unschoolers should turn their kids loose with no help or
guidance.
Kid's need lots of help. Unschooling will mean spending even more time with
kids to find out all the kinds of help they need, placing a high value on
the things kids want to do and then helping them do those things. It means
putting as much value on what your child wants, as what you
want.

Traditional parenting says kids don't know what they want so parents have to
tell them. Unschooling dares to say kids do know what they want and parents
should
try to find ways to help their kids achieve their goals in safe ways.

***If my neighbors let their (say, 4yo) kids
climb so high up a tree that if the kid falls it might break its neck,
does that mean I have to allow my (say, 4yo) kid the same 'privilege'
in order to maintain the parent/child relationship?***

There are a lot of choices between no climbing and a broken neck. My own
kid was a climber so we found lots of ways for him to climb safely. When he
was little that meant jungle gym type things and tall slides at parks and
playgrounds. As
he got older it meant rocks and trees and ladders and the climbing wall at
the
Mountaineering shop. He climbed so much and so well that he could soon
climb things very safely and confidently that *looked* really dangerous and
scary. But he wasn't in excessive danger because he knew what
he was doing.

Climbing doesn't always equal a broken neck. Cookies don't always equal a
fat kid or a sick kid or death.
It really helps to think about what we're afraid of and then whether those
fears are reasonable, and how much ground there is between the absolute
worst case scenario, and total avoidance.

***Reasonable boundaries don't destroy the parent/child relationship,
unreasonable ones do. Now, the question is what's a reasonable boundary or
not,
right?***

If we think it terms of principles we can live really well with our kids.
If the principle is safety then it's good to remember cookies aren't fatal
and climbing can be accomplished without it resulting in a fall and a broken
neck.

Deb Lewis

Carrie Yandell

On 1/21/07, Marieke Willis <luuknam@...> wrote:

> You're correct, and I said it a bit too confidently. But I regularly
> see fat kids in strollers drinking cola or eating ice-cream and that
> just makes me think that lots of parents need to set better
> boundaries/standards for their kids. 2yos in strollers don't consumer
> those foods unless their parents give it to them.

Blanket statements like these are the sort that, as an overweight
individual, really annoy me. I rarely drink soft drinks. My 2yo
currently hates them. However I've had people suggest that maybe I
should have a diet drink instead of whatever I ordered, as if they
know anything about my life or my choices. They are judging based
solely on my appearance. Sure there are people that could make better
choices, but seeing children in strollers with ice-cream and deducing
that their parents need to set boundaries seems like an uninformed
leap, in my opinion.

Since I am overweight and very concerned about not passing on my
problems to my child, I've read several things about kids and eating
habits. Nearly everything that has made sense to me involves not
setting limits or boundaries. Additionally, my husband is a very thin
person who believes that sugar is brain food and is not as evil as
some people say. He's a very creative computer guy who multitasks
brilliantly and seems to not only cope but thrive on what many people
would say is too much sugar. Certainly an eye-opener for me, and when
combined with the advice to not set limits for children, is definitely
how we are approaching food and sugar for our children.

Carrie

Carrie Yandell

I totally forgot to mention the other thing I thought of from reading
the original post!

I read this idea somewhere about how to get little kids kids to eat
more of a variety of foods, as opposed to the same meals every day.
The idea is to take pictures (or cut them out) and have sort of a
picture menu of choices.

I love this idea and want to try it with my 2 year old mostly because
it just sounds fun but also because sometimes we have trouble
communicating in that area. We have some stock meals we rotate through
that I thought it would be fun to do this with, and also various side
dishes, etc.

The original idea was to actually take away one of the "menus" so that
the child can't choose that one again until they've gone through the
stack. I don't think we'll do that though.

Carrie

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/22/2007 1:23:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
cyandell@... writes:

I read this idea somewhere about how to get little kids kids to eat
more of a variety of foods, as opposed to the same meals every day.
The idea is to take pictures (or cut them out) and have sort of a
picture menu of choices.



my best success with getting kids to eat healthy and a wide variety of stuff
is to let them grow a garden and to let them cook and bake (or help when
they are too little to do a lot of it on their own.)

Adriana




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

As far as foods - don't just turn him loose in the kitchen and say
"Whatever". Be there with him. Better yet, beat him to the punch by
anticipating when he might be getting hungry and putting out something
to eat - the more portable and bite sized the better. The thing with
most sweets (cookies, candies, etc) is that they require little or no
preparation whereas fruit, veggies, cheese, etc might need peeling,
slicing (particularly for a little guy) and other "time consuming"
things - plus they require a grown up, they aren't "I can do it MYSELF"
items. Having pre-prepared, grab and go "I do it" stuff really helped us
when DS was that little - things like pre-cubed, pre-'portioned' melon
or other perishable fruits in ziplock or easy to open storage
containers; string cheese - single serving, easy to manage with minimal
help; pre-sliced cheeses of other sorts; and so on. Also, I'd say
something like "gee I'm feeling a little hungry. Think I'll make me a
PBJ - want some?" As he got older, we added in information like "I think
I need some (protein, vitamin C, whatever) so I think I'm going to get
(whatever). Want some?" And, when we noticed a connection between his
behavior (his comment one time when he was pushing every possible
button, was "I want to stop but my brain won't let me") and his protein
intake, (he was maybe 4 or 5 at the time), I mentioned it "Hey you
haven't had any protein foods in a while, how about I fix a PBJ - peanut
butter has protein" Over time, he learned to associate how his body/mind
felt and what things would help - whether it was getting some protein or
complex carbs or more movement (like jumping on his mini-trampoline) or
some downtime/rest or whatever.

Similarly, we didn't just say "whatever" about his sleeping. We modeled
"Hey I need to get up early tomorrow so I'm going to bed now" or "Gee,
I'm really tired, I'm going to take a nap" or whatever. Generally
speaking, he wanted to be with us so we'd head to bed and 9 times out of
10 even now, he comes along. We have lots of snuggling and unwinding -
heading up to bed usually means putting in a DVD or watching a favorite
TV program (stuff like Star Trek or Mythbusters or whatever) and
cuddling and relaxing and gradually falling asleep - often I'm the first
one asleep, I'm up and out and at my desk at work by 8, DH and DS have
lots more flexibility since they're home.

Mostly, we just said "Sure" "Yes" "Okay" a lot more and provided lots of
information about what *we* were doing, thinking, planning, and seeing.
Now DS is 8 1/2 and we have lists of proteins, potassium and calcium
rich foods on our kitchen chalkboard by -his- request...when he gets
hungry, thinking is hard, so having the lists helps him find what it is
he is wanting/needing to have. Note that it is not something -we-
suggested nor is this a 'sudden' thing, it's just one step on a lifelong
journey of learning his own self.

As far as playing, we -don't- make ourselves play for hours on end with
stuff we find totally uninteresting. It's not really necessary. Often,
just sitting nearby and commenting, chatting, keeping DS company is all
he really wants. Sometimes, we'll say "Sure, I'll play (trucks,
Bionicles, whatever) until (this program is over, the mail truck gets
here, Mommy gets home, the bread is finished baking, etc)." Think about
it (to get started) as if it was your significant other. Your SO *loves*
football (since it's almost the Super Bowl, this pops to mind,
substitute whatever applies). You can take about 15 minutes before going
stark raving mad. What do you do? You likely work out some kind of
compromise. For example, you might sit in the same room (so you can
watch the *important* replays and exciting moments) but read a book or
knit or paint or whatever. You become *conversant* with your SO's
favorite team(s) and maybe a star player or two. You notice when that
team is scheduled to play and maybe get some nachos ready for game time.
Doesn't mean you have to sit and watch the whole game. You are
partnering and assisting and supporting. An example at our house is that
DS *loves* Bionicles. Every 3 to 6 months, Lego comes out with a new
'set' of them - I think there are now about half a dozen or so sets of
Bionicles. There are Inikas, Baraki, Toas, and so on. I don't play with
them much. BUT I know the general name groups (though not each
individual character), which types of weapons there are (ratuka
spinners, zampherspheres, and squids). I spotted a book in the bookstore
that gave the backstory of the original Toas and picked it up for DS. We
spotted a Bionicle boardgame at a tag sale and picked it up. I suggested
to a relative that the Bionicle game for the PS2 might make a nice
holiday gift. And so on. Sometimes, DS will ask me to play a Bionicle
battle. In that case, I ask him to explain to me all the rules for this
particular battle game. Then, I don't really need to do anything but
indicate to him which of my characters is going to use which attack on
which of his characters - he does all the physical manipulating and
determines the outcomes. It takes about 1/2 my brain to manage it and I
can be watching TV or browsing Reader's Digest (nothing that requires
lots of thought, though, I do need to pay attention to what is
happening). And, sometimes, I put all my focus into it - it just depends
on how I'm feeling, just as one might actually grab some nachos and
watch a playoff game on occasion with a football loving SO.

Maybe think about why you feel you have to enjoy things you don't enjoy.
And, instead of focusing on "I hate playing with trucks" change the
internal voices to "I love spending time with my DS - it's amazing to
see how his brain is working" because truly our kids' play is a window
into their Self and they allow us to see in when they invite us to play.

Oh and don't forget to include him in -your- stuff as well - "how about
you pretend to be a crane and help me unload the dryer?" Or whatever.
It's a balance - it need not be 100% focused on your child.

Deb

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jlh44music

"Christy Mahoney" <unschooling1@...> wrote:
> My husband has a really hard time because he is in the Air Force.
They have certain standards regarding weight and fitness, and these
standards fail to take body type into consideration. He is a
cyclist and rides most days (at least 5 days per week). He has been
very careful about his diet lately, and although he has lost some
weight, he still has quite a bit of fat around his middle. It is
extremely frustrating for him that he failed the Air Force's fitness
test, while his coworkers who don't exercise nearly as much and eat
burgers & fries do fine. >

I retired from the Air National Guard 8 years ago and have gained about
50 pounds since then. I also store fat around the middle (apple) and
being in the military helped me keep it under control. Unfortunately
it was out of fear (of losing my job) and I am still very self
conscious eating in front of people (I used to think everyone was
thinking "well, no wonder she's always on the edge (max weight), LOOK
at what she's eating", which of course wasn't the case). Plus I now
have foot problems, had surgery, can't walk distances for exercise
etc. I agree some of it is genetics, and age.

When my dd was born, I decided I was NOT going to have food battles
with her (and this was long before I had ever heard of unschooling,
which is why it resonated with me when I DID because I was, to a
certain extent, already living life in an "unschoolish" way (except
that she was in school!). She never had to clean her plate, she could
have "dessert" if she wanted, etc. But I also think she's just not a
big "sweets" person. She's always only liked certain types of candy or
cookies/desserts, so if the only sweet thing available was something
she didn't like (especially with raisins! EWWWWW!) she just didn't have
any (like at a party or someone else's house).

At 14 she's really good at listening to her body. When she's had
enough to eat, she's done. If dinner's ready (on the days I actually
prepare something specific) and she's not hungry, she knows she doesn't
have to eat and can heat some up later. Her latest discovery is that
she feels she has to stop eating coffee ice cream because it's been
unsetting her stomach (she LOVES coffee ice cream). She's a worrier,
but over time as we discuss things that she's concerned about, she's
evolved into someone who can analyze and not automatically think she's
sick or there's something horribly wrong with her body. She thinks
the ice cream is possibly too rich and thinks she'll take a break,
maybe try one with less milk fat (she likes milk, but drinks 2%)
someday.

> So, no, I don't think that the main cause of obesity is parents who
don't set limits.>

I agree, I think there are many factors involved that others have
touched on (heredity, activity level, foods actually consumed and the
variety or lack there of etc). I see it in my dd who is not heavy
(lucky girl!) and has knowledge of what works for her body, and what
doesn't. She DOES love Pepsi right now but chose the caffeine free
as she has trouble falling asleep if she has too much caffeine.
Jann