No.
Wildflower Car
I don't know anything about this book or this guy. But based on title alone,
I agree. Kids and adults need to hear no from others and also, maybe more
importantly, need to know the freedom of being able to say no. And if we
want the freedom to say it, we need to accept the reality that we'll hear
it.
This is one of the things I learned in my own unschool life. My parents
never said no. I had a very hard time saying no to anyone, and when I
started trying to assert myself, I used it to harshly. Live and learn.
Much love,
Wildflower
Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. �Who will win?
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001
I agree. Kids and adults need to hear no from others and also, maybe more
importantly, need to know the freedom of being able to say no. And if we
want the freedom to say it, we need to accept the reality that we'll hear
it.
This is one of the things I learned in my own unschool life. My parents
never said no. I had a very hard time saying no to anyone, and when I
started trying to assert myself, I used it to harshly. Live and learn.
Much love,
Wildflower
>From: "polykowholsteins" <polykow@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Kids need to hear NO from parents!
>Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 21:47:09 -0000
>
>I just came across this link....check out the book.
>http://www.mediafamily.org/
>
>Unbeleivable.{shake head)
>They people don't know why their kids grow up and are so unhappy, hate
>them, etc
>
>
>Alex
>
Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. �Who will win?
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/5/2007 6:22:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
unschoolfool@... writes:
I don't know anything about this book or this guy. But based on title
alone,
I agree. Kids and adults need to hear no from others and also, maybe more
importantly, need to know the freedom of being able to say no. And if we
want the freedom to say it, we need to accept the reality that we'll hear
it.
You are so right! How can you ever learn to assert yourself if your parents
don't show you how by their example. And no isn't always negative it is just
"no." Saying no, saying yes and saying "I'm sorry I wish I knew but I don't
know" are all ways of saying "I love you."
My personal pet peeve isn't with people who don't say no, its with people
who always speak in the same soft gentle passive voice and never use a "I MEAN
BUSINESS" voice. I think that really hurts children in the long run. I saw a
child raised that way get bit by a baby rattle snake because his mom was
saying "please don't walk there, sweetheart don't touch that, the snake will bite
and it will feel like an ouchie boo boo" in almost a whisper and the 3 year
old simply ignored her walked forward, reached down at the snake and got bit.
I was still pretty little but I remember back then feeling thankful that my
mom and dad would have screamed until their voices bled in order to keep me
out of danger, even if it scared me a little. And even if they had to stay
whisper quiet (as to not arouse a snake) they could do it in a way that made me
listen and do what I was told. They were such kind gentle affectionate
respectful people, but there were those handful of times that they really told us
the way it was going to be "or else." They said don't come home pregnant or
with some funky STD and so we didn't have sex. They told us that we would
disgrace ourselves forever if we tried drugs so we never tried them. And the time
my mom caught me with a "clove" cigarette (remember those? for those of you
that went to high school in the late 80's early 90's) she said that she would
kill me with her bare hands before the cigarettes killed me if she ever saw
me with one again. I remember almost instantly respecting her and loving her
even more than I already did and Lord knows I never smoked one of those or
even stood NEXT to someone smoking after that! My mom is my best friend in the
whole world and sometimes best friends have to get tough with each other. I
respect the heck out of my parents for sometimes having to get tough and feel
sorry for children who don't have that in their lives.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschoolfool@... writes:
I don't know anything about this book or this guy. But based on title
alone,
I agree. Kids and adults need to hear no from others and also, maybe more
importantly, need to know the freedom of being able to say no. And if we
want the freedom to say it, we need to accept the reality that we'll hear
it.
You are so right! How can you ever learn to assert yourself if your parents
don't show you how by their example. And no isn't always negative it is just
"no." Saying no, saying yes and saying "I'm sorry I wish I knew but I don't
know" are all ways of saying "I love you."
My personal pet peeve isn't with people who don't say no, its with people
who always speak in the same soft gentle passive voice and never use a "I MEAN
BUSINESS" voice. I think that really hurts children in the long run. I saw a
child raised that way get bit by a baby rattle snake because his mom was
saying "please don't walk there, sweetheart don't touch that, the snake will bite
and it will feel like an ouchie boo boo" in almost a whisper and the 3 year
old simply ignored her walked forward, reached down at the snake and got bit.
I was still pretty little but I remember back then feeling thankful that my
mom and dad would have screamed until their voices bled in order to keep me
out of danger, even if it scared me a little. And even if they had to stay
whisper quiet (as to not arouse a snake) they could do it in a way that made me
listen and do what I was told. They were such kind gentle affectionate
respectful people, but there were those handful of times that they really told us
the way it was going to be "or else." They said don't come home pregnant or
with some funky STD and so we didn't have sex. They told us that we would
disgrace ourselves forever if we tried drugs so we never tried them. And the time
my mom caught me with a "clove" cigarette (remember those? for those of you
that went to high school in the late 80's early 90's) she said that she would
kill me with her bare hands before the cigarettes killed me if she ever saw
me with one again. I remember almost instantly respecting her and loving her
even more than I already did and Lord knows I never smoked one of those or
even stood NEXT to someone smoking after that! My mom is my best friend in the
whole world and sometimes best friends have to get tough with each other. I
respect the heck out of my parents for sometimes having to get tough and feel
sorry for children who don't have that in their lives.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
Hi Adriana,
Adriana wrote: They said don't come home pregnant or with some funky STD
and so we didn't have sex. They told us that we would disgrace ourselves
forever if we tried drugs so we never tried them. And the time
my mom caught me with a "clove" cigarette (remember those? for those of you
that went to high school in the late 80's early 90's) she said that she
would
kill me with her bare hands before the cigarettes killed me if she ever saw
me with one again. I remember almost instantly respecting her and loving
her
even more than I already did and Lord knows I never smoked one of those or
even stood NEXT to someone smoking after that! My mom is my best friend
in the
whole world and sometimes best friends have to get tough with each other. I
respect the heck out of my parents for sometimes having to get tough and
feel
sorry for children who don't have that in their lives.
My parents said similar things and I rebelled big time - drugs, sex,
alcohol, staying at boyfriends homes overnight instead of where I said I
would be, lying etc; so I guess everyone responds differently.
I know my kids are relating to me a whole lot better since I have become
more conscious about how I word my 'no's'. And since I've been conscious of
letting go of unnecessary control (necessary control for me would be to
avoid a life threatening situation as described by you), they are more
responsible, think about things more and whether they really wanted what
they asked for after all, just an all round better situation for the whole
family. Plus, and its a big plus, my life (and I'm thinking theirs too) is
more peaceful and joy filled.
Karen
Adriana wrote: They said don't come home pregnant or with some funky STD
and so we didn't have sex. They told us that we would disgrace ourselves
forever if we tried drugs so we never tried them. And the time
my mom caught me with a "clove" cigarette (remember those? for those of you
that went to high school in the late 80's early 90's) she said that she
would
kill me with her bare hands before the cigarettes killed me if she ever saw
me with one again. I remember almost instantly respecting her and loving
her
even more than I already did and Lord knows I never smoked one of those or
even stood NEXT to someone smoking after that! My mom is my best friend
in the
whole world and sometimes best friends have to get tough with each other. I
respect the heck out of my parents for sometimes having to get tough and
feel
sorry for children who don't have that in their lives.
My parents said similar things and I rebelled big time - drugs, sex,
alcohol, staying at boyfriends homes overnight instead of where I said I
would be, lying etc; so I guess everyone responds differently.
I know my kids are relating to me a whole lot better since I have become
more conscious about how I word my 'no's'. And since I've been conscious of
letting go of unnecessary control (necessary control for me would be to
avoid a life threatening situation as described by you), they are more
responsible, think about things more and whether they really wanted what
they asked for after all, just an all round better situation for the whole
family. Plus, and its a big plus, my life (and I'm thinking theirs too) is
more peaceful and joy filled.
Karen
On 06/01/07, singdoula@... <singdoula@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> In a message dated 1/5/2007 6:22:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> unschoolfool@... writes:
>
> I don't know anything about this book or this guy. But based on title
> alone,
> I agree. Kids and adults need to hear no from others and also, maybe more
> importantly, need to know the freedom of being able to say no. And if we
> want the freedom to say it, we need to accept the reality that we'll hear
> it.
>
>
> You are so right! How can you ever learn to assert yourself if your
> parents
> don't show you how by their example. And no isn't always negative it is
> just
> "no." Saying no, saying yes and saying "I'm sorry I wish I knew but I
> don't
> know" are all ways of saying "I love you."
>
> My personal pet peeve isn't with people who don't say no, its with people
> who always speak in the same soft gentle passive voice and never use a "I
> MEAN
> BUSINESS" voice. I think that really hurts children in the long run. I
> saw a
> child raised that way get bit by a baby rattle snake because his mom was
> saying "please don't walk there, sweetheart don't touch that, the snake
> will bite
> and it will feel like an ouchie boo boo" in almost a whisper and the 3
> year
> old simply ignored her walked forward, reached down at the snake and got
> bit.
> I was still pretty little but I remember back then feeling thankful that
> my
> mom and dad would have screamed until their voices bled in order to keep
> me
> out of danger, even if it scared me a little. And even if they had to
> stay
> whisper quiet (as to not arouse a snake) they could do it in a way that
> made me
> listen and do what I was told. They were such kind gentle affectionate
> respectful people, but there were those handful of times that they really
> told us
> the way it was going to be "or else." They said don't come home pregnant
> or
> with some funky STD and so we didn't have sex. They told us that we would
> disgrace ourselves forever if we tried drugs so we never tried them. And
> the time
> my mom caught me with a "clove" cigarette (remember those? for those of
> you
> that went to high school in the late 80's early 90's) she said that she
> would
> kill me with her bare hands before the cigarettes killed me if she ever
> saw
> me with one again. I remember almost instantly respecting her and loving
> her
> even more than I already did and Lord knows I never smoked one of those or
> even stood NEXT to someone smoking after that! My mom is my best friend
> in the
> whole world and sometimes best friends have to get tough with each other.
> I
> respect the heck out of my parents for sometimes having to get tough and
> feel
> sorry for children who don't have that in their lives.
>
> Adriana
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 5, 2007, at 6:13 PM, Wildflower Car wrote:
that people need to know the world doesn't revolve around them, it's
really no different than saying "People need to know how to read,"
and "People need to know how to do math."
While those statements are true, thinking that we need to do
something specific, eg, say no, in order to impart that lesson is a
huge stumbling block towards unschooling.
By focusing on helping our kids get what they want from life, by our
kids seeing us working to help them within the limitations of life
(for example, saying "I'd be happy to go to the grocery store in the
morning but right now I'm exhausted. Let's see if we can find a
substitute until then," they'll figure out for themselves that the
whole world doesn't stop for them. They don't need to hear no to
learn that.
Helping kids navigate the realities of life is a much better route to
unschooling than saying no in order to get some lesson into them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But based on title alone,While I understand what you're saying, trying to get across the idea
> I agree. Kids and adults need to hear no from others and also,
> maybe more
> importantly, need to know the freedom of being able to say no.
that people need to know the world doesn't revolve around them, it's
really no different than saying "People need to know how to read,"
and "People need to know how to do math."
While those statements are true, thinking that we need to do
something specific, eg, say no, in order to impart that lesson is a
huge stumbling block towards unschooling.
By focusing on helping our kids get what they want from life, by our
kids seeing us working to help them within the limitations of life
(for example, saying "I'd be happy to go to the grocery store in the
morning but right now I'm exhausted. Let's see if we can find a
substitute until then," they'll figure out for themselves that the
whole world doesn't stop for them. They don't need to hear no to
learn that.
Helping kids navigate the realities of life is a much better route to
unschooling than saying no in order to get some lesson into them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 5, 2007, at 8:26 PM, singdoula@... wrote:
pregnant. (Or runaway pregnant.)
It's not the no that makes kids listen. It's building a relationship
of trust. It takes a huge amount of work to get to the point where a
parent can say an occasional "Don't," and the child will take that to
heart. It's a huge huge disservice to the thoughtful work involved in
building relationships that people discuss here and work on to boil
it down to a message that suggests all of that can be gotten by
saying "No" to kids.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> They said don't come home pregnant orAnd lots of parents have said similar things and kids have come home
> with some funky STD and so we didn't have sex.
pregnant. (Or runaway pregnant.)
It's not the no that makes kids listen. It's building a relationship
of trust. It takes a huge amount of work to get to the point where a
parent can say an occasional "Don't," and the child will take that to
heart. It's a huge huge disservice to the thoughtful work involved in
building relationships that people discuss here and work on to boil
it down to a message that suggests all of that can be gotten by
saying "No" to kids.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/6/2007 10:16:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kldickson@... writes:
My parents said similar things and I rebelled big time - drugs, sex,
alcohol, staying at boyfriends homes overnight instead of where I said I
would be, lying etc; so I guess everyone responds differently.
maybe my parents said it with more respect and love? none of us rebelled, we
just loved our parents even more when they set boundaries. it made us feel
safe. but our parents were EXTREMELY affectionate and loving and attached to
us (like glue) still are! :-)
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kldickson@... writes:
My parents said similar things and I rebelled big time - drugs, sex,
alcohol, staying at boyfriends homes overnight instead of where I said I
would be, lying etc; so I guess everyone responds differently.
maybe my parents said it with more respect and love? none of us rebelled, we
just loved our parents even more when they set boundaries. it made us feel
safe. but our parents were EXTREMELY affectionate and loving and attached to
us (like glue) still are! :-)
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~They said don't come home pregnant or
hell didn't stop ME! Open communication and trust would have helped
me navigate some rough years a lot better. Telling a kid "NO" doesn't
stop them. Parents are fooling themselves if they think that's all it
takes.
Some kids just get really good at hiding stuff.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
> with some funky STD and so we didn't have sex~I'm always surprised that this works for anyone, because it sure as
hell didn't stop ME! Open communication and trust would have helped
me navigate some rough years a lot better. Telling a kid "NO" doesn't
stop them. Parents are fooling themselves if they think that's all it
takes.
Some kids just get really good at hiding stuff.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/6/2007 3:44:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
I'm always surprised that this works for anyone, because it sure as
hell didn't stop ME! Open communication and trust would have helped
me navigate some rough years a lot better. Telling a kid "NO" doesn't
stop them. Parents are fooling themselves if they think that's all it
takes.
gosh it worked for almost everyone I associate with! we grew up in a very
close knit community of 1st generation Slavic people and everyone knew everyone
else and everyone's parents handled it this way and none of us got into
trouble. I am always amazed by people who don't listen to their parents. I did in
small unharmful ways, ways they thought were amusing, but never in ways that
did end up hurting my life and future. I trusted them to be right (and they
always were!!) Same with my better half's upbringing and all of our cousins
and siblings. I guess we just had super great families?
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
I'm always surprised that this works for anyone, because it sure as
hell didn't stop ME! Open communication and trust would have helped
me navigate some rough years a lot better. Telling a kid "NO" doesn't
stop them. Parents are fooling themselves if they think that's all it
takes.
gosh it worked for almost everyone I associate with! we grew up in a very
close knit community of 1st generation Slavic people and everyone knew everyone
else and everyone's parents handled it this way and none of us got into
trouble. I am always amazed by people who don't listen to their parents. I did in
small unharmful ways, ways they thought were amusing, but never in ways that
did end up hurting my life and future. I trusted them to be right (and they
always were!!) Same with my better half's upbringing and all of our cousins
and siblings. I guess we just had super great families?
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~maybe my parents said it with more respect and love? none of us
rebelled, we just loved our parents even more when they set
boundaries. it made us feel safe. but our parents were EXTREMELY
affectionate and loving and attached to us (like glue) still are! :-)~~
I'm sorry, but there's nothing respectful about saying "You better not
ever come home pregnant or blah, blah, blah". It sounds like you might
have a hard time examining the not-so-great parts about the way you
were raised along with the wonderful parts. You can love your parents
dearly and still recognize where you might do better.
I've never felt more love because someone told me "you better not". It
sounds like your upbringing was pretty sheltered in a lot of ways.
That, and personality may have played a big role in the kind of
reactions that followed.
My parents were very affectionate also. Our family had a lot of
nurture within. I never thought "you better not" did anything but
helped us learn how to hide things from them.
I went to a typical public school, and out of the hundreds of kids
there, I know of very few that the "you better not" actually worked
on!! Didn't work on any of MY friends. Even the ones from very loving
and nurturing families. I could tell you quite a few stories about the
crazy stuff we did!!
I don't believe "no you better not" is EVER better than honest
dialogue, open communication and trusting that our children WILL make
their own choices regardless and the best we can do is give truthful
information and be there for them.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
rebelled, we just loved our parents even more when they set
boundaries. it made us feel safe. but our parents were EXTREMELY
affectionate and loving and attached to us (like glue) still are! :-)~~
I'm sorry, but there's nothing respectful about saying "You better not
ever come home pregnant or blah, blah, blah". It sounds like you might
have a hard time examining the not-so-great parts about the way you
were raised along with the wonderful parts. You can love your parents
dearly and still recognize where you might do better.
I've never felt more love because someone told me "you better not". It
sounds like your upbringing was pretty sheltered in a lot of ways.
That, and personality may have played a big role in the kind of
reactions that followed.
My parents were very affectionate also. Our family had a lot of
nurture within. I never thought "you better not" did anything but
helped us learn how to hide things from them.
I went to a typical public school, and out of the hundreds of kids
there, I know of very few that the "you better not" actually worked
on!! Didn't work on any of MY friends. Even the ones from very loving
and nurturing families. I could tell you quite a few stories about the
crazy stuff we did!!
I don't believe "no you better not" is EVER better than honest
dialogue, open communication and trusting that our children WILL make
their own choices regardless and the best we can do is give truthful
information and be there for them.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~maybe my parents said it with more respect and love? none of us
rebelled, we just loved our parents even more when they set
boundaries. it made us feel safe. but our parents were EXTREMELY
affectionate and loving and attached to us (like glue) still are! :-)~~
I'm sorry, but there's nothing respectful about saying "You better not
ever come home pregnant or blah, blah, blah". It sounds like you might
have a hard time examining the not-so-great parts about the way you
were raised along with the wonderful parts. You can love your parents
dearly and still recognize where you might do better.
I've never felt more love because someone told me "you better not". It
sounds like your upbringing was pretty sheltered in a lot of ways.
That, and personality may have played a big role in the kind of
reactions that followed.
My parents were very affectionate also. Our family had a lot of
nurture within. I never thought "you better not" did anything but
helped us learn how to hide things from them.
I went to a typical public school, and out of the hundreds of kids
there, I know of very few that the "you better not" actually worked
on!! Didn't work on any of MY friends. Even the ones from very loving
and nurturing families. I could tell you quite a few stories about the
crazy stuff we did!!
I don't believe "no you better not" is EVER better than honest
dialogue, open communication and trusting that our children WILL make
their own choices regardless and the best we can do is give truthful
information and be there for them.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
rebelled, we just loved our parents even more when they set
boundaries. it made us feel safe. but our parents were EXTREMELY
affectionate and loving and attached to us (like glue) still are! :-)~~
I'm sorry, but there's nothing respectful about saying "You better not
ever come home pregnant or blah, blah, blah". It sounds like you might
have a hard time examining the not-so-great parts about the way you
were raised along with the wonderful parts. You can love your parents
dearly and still recognize where you might do better.
I've never felt more love because someone told me "you better not". It
sounds like your upbringing was pretty sheltered in a lot of ways.
That, and personality may have played a big role in the kind of
reactions that followed.
My parents were very affectionate also. Our family had a lot of
nurture within. I never thought "you better not" did anything but
helped us learn how to hide things from them.
I went to a typical public school, and out of the hundreds of kids
there, I know of very few that the "you better not" actually worked
on!! Didn't work on any of MY friends. Even the ones from very loving
and nurturing families. I could tell you quite a few stories about the
crazy stuff we did!!
I don't believe "no you better not" is EVER better than honest
dialogue, open communication and trusting that our children WILL make
their own choices regardless and the best we can do is give truthful
information and be there for them.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Wildflower Car
Agreed, good point.
Wildflower
The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop.
http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2
Wildflower
>From: Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] No.
>Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:14:06 -0500
>
>
>On Jan 5, 2007, at 6:13 PM, Wildflower Car wrote:
>
> > But based on title alone,
> > I agree. Kids and adults need to hear no from others and also,
> > maybe more
> > importantly, need to know the freedom of being able to say no.
>
>While I understand what you're saying, trying to get across the idea
>that people need to know the world doesn't revolve around them, it's
>really no different than saying "People need to know how to read,"
>and "People need to know how to do math."
>
>While those statements are true, thinking that we need to do
>something specific, eg, say no, in order to impart that lesson is a
>huge stumbling block towards unschooling.
>
>By focusing on helping our kids get what they want from life, by our
>kids seeing us working to help them within the limitations of life
>(for example, saying "I'd be happy to go to the grocery store in the
>morning but right now I'm exhausted. Let's see if we can find a
>substitute until then," they'll figure out for themselves that the
>whole world doesn't stop for them. They don't need to hear no to
>learn that.
>
>Helping kids navigate the realities of life is a much better route to
>unschooling than saying no in order to get some lesson into them.
>
>Joyce
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop.
http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2
camden
~They said don't come home pregnant or
Here's what happened~ my youngest of the two took them to school (they were in PS at the time) and blew them up on the bus like balloons ... LOL. That's what he thought of having sex. My oldest kept them for awhile & threw them away when they expired ( didn't use any ) and asked me to get him more just incase. Neither of them (to my knowledge) got anyone pregnant or came home with a STD.
I knew from the beginning ~ and from experience ~ that my mom saying "No, sex is not for the unmarried" didn't stop me from becoming pregnant at the age of 16.
So instead of saying no ........ listen & talk with your teens. Knowing they can come to you & express themselves openly is good for them & you.
Carol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> with some funky STD and so we didn't have sex~When my two oldest ds (now 23 & 25) were in their early teen years I gave both of them a box of condoms & the offer to discuss anything they wanted totally without judgment. I knew that in the throws of passion, they weren't going to stop because I said so. Mom saying "No don't do that, your too young" wasn't going to deter something they felt they were ready to do. So I wanted them prepared ~ responsibly mind & body.
Here's what happened~ my youngest of the two took them to school (they were in PS at the time) and blew them up on the bus like balloons ... LOL. That's what he thought of having sex. My oldest kept them for awhile & threw them away when they expired ( didn't use any ) and asked me to get him more just incase. Neither of them (to my knowledge) got anyone pregnant or came home with a STD.
I knew from the beginning ~ and from experience ~ that my mom saying "No, sex is not for the unmarried" didn't stop me from becoming pregnant at the age of 16.
So instead of saying no ........ listen & talk with your teens. Knowing they can come to you & express themselves openly is good for them & you.
Carol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
Adriana wrote: maybe my parents said it with more respect and love? none of
us rebelled, we
just loved our parents even more when they set boundaries. it made us feel
safe. but our parents were EXTREMELY affectionate and loving and attached
to
us (like glue) still are! :-)
I would totally agree with you Adriana. My parents were more authoritarian
and not physical and a *no* was a *no* and *because I said so*. I have
never been able to relate to that, and I remember having trouble in high
school maths because with trigonometry I couldn't get the *why* we had to do
it and the teachers just kept saying *because you need to know*, drove me
nuts....
I think too in my case I didn't respect my parents; more a fearful type of
respect and so I snuck around and did what I did. I do agree that certain
children need to feel boundaries to feel secure but it needs to be done in a
gentle, caring, respectful way rather than simply done from a position of
power.
Cheers
Karen
us rebelled, we
just loved our parents even more when they set boundaries. it made us feel
safe. but our parents were EXTREMELY affectionate and loving and attached
to
us (like glue) still are! :-)
I would totally agree with you Adriana. My parents were more authoritarian
and not physical and a *no* was a *no* and *because I said so*. I have
never been able to relate to that, and I remember having trouble in high
school maths because with trigonometry I couldn't get the *why* we had to do
it and the teachers just kept saying *because you need to know*, drove me
nuts....
I think too in my case I didn't respect my parents; more a fearful type of
respect and so I snuck around and did what I did. I do agree that certain
children need to feel boundaries to feel secure but it needs to be done in a
gentle, caring, respectful way rather than simply done from a position of
power.
Cheers
Karen
On 07/01/07, singdoula@... <singdoula@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 1/6/2007 10:16:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> kldickson@... writes:
>
> My parents said similar things and I rebelled big time - drugs, sex,
> alcohol, staying at boyfriends homes overnight instead of where I said I
> would be, lying etc; so I guess everyone responds differently.
>
>
>
>
> Adriana
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 6, 2007, at 5:44 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
better not come home pregnant" could be heard as just an obvious
statement of what's already accepted.
But the point isn't whether or not it's heard as loving or
controlling by a particular person. The point is how can we create an
environment where kids trust that our goal is to help them get what
they want?
"No" doesn't create that environment. Saying "Yes" -- and saying it
mindfully as Ren pointed out -- does. Actively helping them move
towards what they're trying to get is how we build their trust that
we want to help them get what they want.
There are two separate arguments going on here: One side is arguing
that never saying no is a bad idea. The other side is clearly saying
that's not the point and trying to discuss the more important issue
of how to create a trusting environment.
Maybe to get past the impasse, for those who are arguing that it's
necessary to say no, in what instances did you feel that the best
option has been to say no?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm sorry, but there's nothing respectful about saying "You better notI think in the context of a supportive, trusting environment, "You
> ever come home pregnant or blah, blah, blah".
better not come home pregnant" could be heard as just an obvious
statement of what's already accepted.
But the point isn't whether or not it's heard as loving or
controlling by a particular person. The point is how can we create an
environment where kids trust that our goal is to help them get what
they want?
"No" doesn't create that environment. Saying "Yes" -- and saying it
mindfully as Ren pointed out -- does. Actively helping them move
towards what they're trying to get is how we build their trust that
we want to help them get what they want.
There are two separate arguments going on here: One side is arguing
that never saying no is a bad idea. The other side is clearly saying
that's not the point and trying to discuss the more important issue
of how to create a trusting environment.
Maybe to get past the impasse, for those who are arguing that it's
necessary to say no, in what instances did you feel that the best
option has been to say no?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
maybe my parents said it with more respect and love? none of us rebelled, we
just loved our parents even more when they set boundaries. it made us feel
safe. but our parents were EXTREMELY affectionate and loving and attached to
us (like glue) still are! :-)
Adriana
*****
How do you threaten to kill your child and do it with respect and love? And would she really have killed you? I'm sure not, so why threaten you with that?
My Mom used to make similar threats and it did nothing to make us do what she asked/said -- we just got better at not getting caught.
Sylvia
Gary (dh)
Will (almost 22!) Andy (10-1/2) and Dan (almost 6)
Peace is the vibrant space which stimulates the dance of kindness, merriment and freedom. ~ unknown
http://ourhapahome.blogspot.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
just loved our parents even more when they set boundaries. it made us feel
safe. but our parents were EXTREMELY affectionate and loving and attached to
us (like glue) still are! :-)
Adriana
*****
How do you threaten to kill your child and do it with respect and love? And would she really have killed you? I'm sure not, so why threaten you with that?
My Mom used to make similar threats and it did nothing to make us do what she asked/said -- we just got better at not getting caught.
Sylvia
Gary (dh)
Will (almost 22!) Andy (10-1/2) and Dan (almost 6)
Peace is the vibrant space which stimulates the dance of kindness, merriment and freedom. ~ unknown
http://ourhapahome.blogspot.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/6/2007 5:50:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
"You better not
ever come home pregnant or blah, blah, blah". It sounds like you might
have a hard time examining the not-so-great parts about the way you
were raised along with the wonderful parts. You can love your parents
dearly and still recognize where you might do better.
I've never felt more love because someone told me "you better not". It
sounds like your upbringing was pretty sheltered in a lot of ways.
Wow, I'm in the minority of people who do not feel I could "do better" than
my parents (instead I only DREAM of being as wonderful as they were) yet this
isn't a good thing?! SHEESH! I think of myself as the luckiest lady on
earth. I'm so glad I fell in love with a man who has the same regard for his
parents and who's parents have the same regard for theirs! Its a really GREAT way
to feel and life sure is happy for all involved.
Maybe my childhood was sheltered but I thank God for that! We all turned out
very healthy and didn't get ourselves into the kind of trouble that I've
seen ruin people; early sex, drugs, self-disrespecting behavior. I DID feel
loved by "you better not" and I still feel loved when my better half tells me
what streets he doesn't want me driving on (because they are unsafe) or how late
at night it too late to go to the market (also because of safety).
But it isn't as if something "bad" will happen in our relationship if I do
go to the market after dark; I'll simply come home to some comment like "so
you like being out with the muggers?" (think an episode of Raymond) it is all
very tongue and cheek, joking yet a little serious at the same time, and very
loving as in "if I didn't love you I wouldn't tell you what to do." I TRULY
think this could just be a cultural thing because he is Italian and I am
extremely ethnic as well (Croatian, similar culturally) and we tell each other and
our children and our parents and friends, etc... that we love one another
by being busy bodies and telling each other what to do constantly. Maybe if
you aren't part of our culture you can't understand it. I would be DEVASTATED
(and feel very unloved) if I wore a new outfit in front or my mom, aunts and
sisters and it didn't get "critiqued" in a multitude of ways (just perfect,
too tight in the butt, do you think you are Brittany Spears, you shouldn't
wear stripes, makes you look busty, etc...) to which I would respond "kiss my
too tight ass" and everyone would burst into laughter and hug. When we leave
each other alone and do what normal people call "respectful" it is actually (in
our culture) a way of being really mean to someone.
In terms of the pregnancy thing, the "light and regular" way of saying it in
my family every now and then (this was always in response to finding out
that some kid at school had done something they didn't approve of) was "you
better not" but it was really more of just a knee-jerk thing to say than the only
way they said it. There were the rare occasions that we'd be sitting at the
table or going to bed and brushing our teeth and they would go into more
depth about how they felt about it. That if we did something like that, we would
then have to be 100% responsible for the baby financially and otherwise which
meant no more riding lessons, no more ponies, no more music lessons, and of
course living on our own - all things we didn't want happening. They made it
VERY CLEAR that they would love us and be "in love" with us forever no mat
ter what, but they wouldn't support us financially because when you have sex
you MUST be old enough to support yourself and take care of all the
consequences that sex can lead to. What could be wrong with that. So really, they
weren't saying "no" to sex, they were saying "if you do it, you should be prepared
to live as an adult, and we will be sad about that (and feel disgraced as a
family) but will love you no matter what." To me that is very HEALTHY,
truthful and practical.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
"You better not
ever come home pregnant or blah, blah, blah". It sounds like you might
have a hard time examining the not-so-great parts about the way you
were raised along with the wonderful parts. You can love your parents
dearly and still recognize where you might do better.
I've never felt more love because someone told me "you better not". It
sounds like your upbringing was pretty sheltered in a lot of ways.
Wow, I'm in the minority of people who do not feel I could "do better" than
my parents (instead I only DREAM of being as wonderful as they were) yet this
isn't a good thing?! SHEESH! I think of myself as the luckiest lady on
earth. I'm so glad I fell in love with a man who has the same regard for his
parents and who's parents have the same regard for theirs! Its a really GREAT way
to feel and life sure is happy for all involved.
Maybe my childhood was sheltered but I thank God for that! We all turned out
very healthy and didn't get ourselves into the kind of trouble that I've
seen ruin people; early sex, drugs, self-disrespecting behavior. I DID feel
loved by "you better not" and I still feel loved when my better half tells me
what streets he doesn't want me driving on (because they are unsafe) or how late
at night it too late to go to the market (also because of safety).
But it isn't as if something "bad" will happen in our relationship if I do
go to the market after dark; I'll simply come home to some comment like "so
you like being out with the muggers?" (think an episode of Raymond) it is all
very tongue and cheek, joking yet a little serious at the same time, and very
loving as in "if I didn't love you I wouldn't tell you what to do." I TRULY
think this could just be a cultural thing because he is Italian and I am
extremely ethnic as well (Croatian, similar culturally) and we tell each other and
our children and our parents and friends, etc... that we love one another
by being busy bodies and telling each other what to do constantly. Maybe if
you aren't part of our culture you can't understand it. I would be DEVASTATED
(and feel very unloved) if I wore a new outfit in front or my mom, aunts and
sisters and it didn't get "critiqued" in a multitude of ways (just perfect,
too tight in the butt, do you think you are Brittany Spears, you shouldn't
wear stripes, makes you look busty, etc...) to which I would respond "kiss my
too tight ass" and everyone would burst into laughter and hug. When we leave
each other alone and do what normal people call "respectful" it is actually (in
our culture) a way of being really mean to someone.
In terms of the pregnancy thing, the "light and regular" way of saying it in
my family every now and then (this was always in response to finding out
that some kid at school had done something they didn't approve of) was "you
better not" but it was really more of just a knee-jerk thing to say than the only
way they said it. There were the rare occasions that we'd be sitting at the
table or going to bed and brushing our teeth and they would go into more
depth about how they felt about it. That if we did something like that, we would
then have to be 100% responsible for the baby financially and otherwise which
meant no more riding lessons, no more ponies, no more music lessons, and of
course living on our own - all things we didn't want happening. They made it
VERY CLEAR that they would love us and be "in love" with us forever no mat
ter what, but they wouldn't support us financially because when you have sex
you MUST be old enough to support yourself and take care of all the
consequences that sex can lead to. What could be wrong with that. So really, they
weren't saying "no" to sex, they were saying "if you do it, you should be prepared
to live as an adult, and we will be sad about that (and feel disgraced as a
family) but will love you no matter what." To me that is very HEALTHY,
truthful and practical.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/6/2007 8:55:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
sylgt04@... writes:
How do you threaten to kill your child and do it with respect and love? And
would she really have killed you? I'm sure not, so why threaten you with that?
she saw people die of lung cancer and ruin their lives with cigarettes and
when she found out that I tried a few she totally LOST it and said things that
were TOTALLY out of character for her. To see her with that passion,
craziness and trauma in her eyes, tears pouring down her face really HIT ME like a
ton of bricks. I thought "OH CRAP I am doing something AWFUL with my life I
can't do this anymore!" For her to fall from grace like this was absolutely out
of character. She is the gentlest most soft spoken kind loving human being
on earth. It was THE PERFECT way for me to see her be about something so
serious. My Mom used to make similar threats and it did nothing to make us do
what she asked/said -- we just got better at not getting caught.
As I said, this was totally out of character for her. The fact that she did
something like this 2 or 3 times total in her whole life is probably why it
had such a great effect. If you are constantly freaking out about everything
kids (and everyone else) will tune you out. She selected the PERFECT time and
way to "loose it" and every time someone remarks about how nice it is that I
never developed bad health habits that interfere with my career (I sing opera
and jazz for a living) I look back at that moment and think about all she
did for me.
That story (the "I will kill you before the cigarette's do") is a story my
children 11,9 and 7 already have heard and laugh about with their Baka
(grandma) and they always ask her or me to tell it. They see it as loving, funny
after the fact, and just part of our crazy family.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sylgt04@... writes:
How do you threaten to kill your child and do it with respect and love? And
would she really have killed you? I'm sure not, so why threaten you with that?
she saw people die of lung cancer and ruin their lives with cigarettes and
when she found out that I tried a few she totally LOST it and said things that
were TOTALLY out of character for her. To see her with that passion,
craziness and trauma in her eyes, tears pouring down her face really HIT ME like a
ton of bricks. I thought "OH CRAP I am doing something AWFUL with my life I
can't do this anymore!" For her to fall from grace like this was absolutely out
of character. She is the gentlest most soft spoken kind loving human being
on earth. It was THE PERFECT way for me to see her be about something so
serious. My Mom used to make similar threats and it did nothing to make us do
what she asked/said -- we just got better at not getting caught.
As I said, this was totally out of character for her. The fact that she did
something like this 2 or 3 times total in her whole life is probably why it
had such a great effect. If you are constantly freaking out about everything
kids (and everyone else) will tune you out. She selected the PERFECT time and
way to "loose it" and every time someone remarks about how nice it is that I
never developed bad health habits that interfere with my career (I sing opera
and jazz for a living) I look back at that moment and think about all she
did for me.
That story (the "I will kill you before the cigarette's do") is a story my
children 11,9 and 7 already have heard and laugh about with their Baka
(grandma) and they always ask her or me to tell it. They see it as loving, funny
after the fact, and just part of our crazy family.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ariannah Armstrong
Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
into a fire place. They had put it so that there was not a single
situation in which the word "No" was appropriate. Sometimes, "No" in a
firm voice (not "mean") is a great time saver and lets kids know that
whatever is going on needs to stop.
However, since unschooling, I have become more and more of a YES mom,
and it's pretty much my default answer for many things (after finding
out how much arbitrary restriction I had put on my kids without even
realizing it).. Now, when they hear the word "no", it's a different
enough word, that they know I must indeed mean it, rather than as the
default drone which originally caused them to say, "yeah, knew she'd say
that".
Ariannah in Nova Scotia
--
"May we all have a vision now and then
Of a world where every neighbour is a friend"
Abba "Happy New Year" 1980
Personal Blog: http://ec.lecti.ca
>I once took a parenting course that made me want to throw the textbook
> It's not the no that makes kids listen. It's building a relationship
> of trust. It takes a huge amount of work to get to the point where a
> parent can say an occasional "Don't," and the child will take that to
> heart. It's a huge huge disservice to the thoughtful work involved in
> building relationships that people discuss here and work on to boil
> it down to a message that suggests all of that can be gotten by
> saying "No" to kids.
into a fire place. They had put it so that there was not a single
situation in which the word "No" was appropriate. Sometimes, "No" in a
firm voice (not "mean") is a great time saver and lets kids know that
whatever is going on needs to stop.
However, since unschooling, I have become more and more of a YES mom,
and it's pretty much my default answer for many things (after finding
out how much arbitrary restriction I had put on my kids without even
realizing it).. Now, when they hear the word "no", it's a different
enough word, that they know I must indeed mean it, rather than as the
default drone which originally caused them to say, "yeah, knew she'd say
that".
Ariannah in Nova Scotia
--
"May we all have a vision now and then
Of a world where every neighbour is a friend"
Abba "Happy New Year" 1980
Personal Blog: http://ec.lecti.ca
Ariannah Armstrong
Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
than saying, "No" automatically by default, I'll say, "Great idea. Can
we do this (name a certain time) when I'm more likely to get right into
it with you?" They'd rather have a willing and eager mom doing stuff
with them, than one who hasn't had the chance to unwind and is only
"half there". My children pick up on this instinctively.
Ariannah in Nova Scotia
--
"May we all have a vision now and then
Of a world where every neighbour is a friend"
Abba "Happy New Year" 1980
Personal Blog: http://ec.lecti.ca
> By focusing on helping our kids get what they want from life, by ourYeah, that is what I have learned to do over the past while. Rather
> kids seeing us working to help them within the limitations of life
> (for example, saying "I'd be happy to go to the grocery store in the
> morning but right now I'm exhausted. Let's see if we can find a
> substitute until then," they'll figure out for themselves that the
> whole world doesn't stop for them. They don't need to hear no to
> learn that.
than saying, "No" automatically by default, I'll say, "Great idea. Can
we do this (name a certain time) when I'm more likely to get right into
it with you?" They'd rather have a willing and eager mom doing stuff
with them, than one who hasn't had the chance to unwind and is only
"half there". My children pick up on this instinctively.
> Helping kids navigate the realities of life is a much better route toIndeed.
> unschooling than saying no in order to get some lesson into them.
Ariannah in Nova Scotia
--
"May we all have a vision now and then
Of a world where every neighbour is a friend"
Abba "Happy New Year" 1980
Personal Blog: http://ec.lecti.ca