polykowholsteins

I just came across this link....check out the book.
http://www.mediafamily.org/

Unbeleivable.{shake head)
They people don't know why their kids grow up and are so unhappy, hate
them, etc


Alex

polykowholsteins

Here is alittle of what he says:

"While many kids don't play violent video games or watch crude
movies, all kids get a constant media drumbeat of messages
promoting "MORE, EASY, FAST and FUN." The result is that there is a
new epidemic engulfing our kids. I call it "DDD" or "Discipline
Deficit Disorder." If left untreated the result will be spiritually
and psychologically flabby kids. That's because self-discipline is a
key success factor. That's why I wrote the book No: Why Kids—Of All
Ages– Need to Hear it And Ways Parents Can Say It. By saying No when
we need to we help our children learn the skills of self—discipline
so they can accomplish greater achievements. No is not a destination.
It is the road to Yes.

Please consider a gift of $100 dollars today to support our work with
children and families across the country learn how to set kids up for
success. To thank you I'll autograph a copy of my new book and send
it your way! I truly hope you enjoy it."


I guess we all have flabby kids them.
Alex

Meridith Richardson

HOw do you go about limiting junk food. My daughter
would chose it for every meal. I make deals, "eat
this" and you can have that. But then I feel like she
doesn't understand why she can;t have Candy or ice
cream all throughout the day. So I guess in essence I
am saying no to that at times. Am I wrong. Other
than that she preetty much makes her won decisions and
seems rather happy and advanced in many things.
Thanks
Meridith


--- polykowholsteins <polykow@...> wrote:

> I just came across this link....check out the book.
> http://www.mediafamily.org/
>
> Unbeleivable.{shake head)
> They people don't know why their kids grow up and
> are so unhappy, hate
> them, etc
>
>
> Alex
>
>


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Sylvia Toyama

I call it "DDD" or "Discipline
Deficit Disorder." If left untreated the result will be spiritually
and psychologically flabby kids. That's because self-discipline is a
key success factor. That's why I wrote the book No: Why Kids—Of All
Ages– Need to Hear it And Ways Parents Can Say It. By saying No when
we need to we help our children learn the skills of self—discipline
so they can accomplish greater achievements. No is not a destination.
It is the road to Yes.

*****

John Rosemond, yes? He has a whole series of books and a weekly newspaper colum, carried by my city's newspaper. Occasionally his advice is okay -- never truly good, but sometimes less damaging than usual -- but overall his philosophy is very mean towards kids. He also advises that kids should have no more than 10 toys at any time, so if a child receives a new toys (or several, think birthday, etc) parents should get rid of old toys so the total never exceeds 10.

Sylvia

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~I guess we all have flabby kids them.
Alex~~

Yeah...whatever eh?

I see most "no's" as a closed door. My goal is to be more creative
than that. If I say "no", it has something to do with safety or
personal boundaries. My kids don't NEED to hear "no" in order to
thrive, that much I know.

I just got back from an evening perusing the art galleries and hanging
out at Acoustic Coffeehouse, chock full of adults that Sierra happily
chatted with. She looked through a bunch of items that a guy brought
back from Peru and purchased a handwoven bag. Earlier, she purchased a
handmade clay mug for her tea. On the way home she asked where Perus
is and informed me that she wants to go there soon.

I don't see any deficit in this child and I don't tell her "no" hardly
ever...in her entire life even! I remember one time we were visiting
family in Alaska and did a trip to the grocery store with my sister.
As we walked the aisles, Sierra asked for certain items and we picked
up whatever she wanted. By the third request, my sister says "Sierra,
does your mother EVER tell you 'no'?"

She looked at her auntie with this funny face and shook her head no.:)
Which wasn't entirely true, because there were times I had budgetary
limits or other real reasons for being careful, but arbitrary "no's"
have not been part of their world.

Phooey on people who think parents need to be the disciplinarian or
that "no" has some intrinsic value. We're living each day proving them
wrong.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky

I don't . Simply don't. They can eat whatever, whe\never and as much as they want. But I do offer lots of heathy and organic foods many times a day, And I also try to buy the most healthy ice-cream etc
My ds is super healthy and we even talk about nutrition and healthy foods. He rarely binges in "junk" cause it does not hold power over him.

Alex


----- Original Message -----
From: Meridith Richardson
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Kids need to hear NO from parents/food


HOw do you go about limiting junk food. My daughter
would chose it for every meal. I make deals, "eat
this" and you can have that. But then I feel like she
doesn't understand why she can;t have Candy or ice
cream all throughout the day. So I guess in essence I
am saying no to that at times. Am I wrong. Other
than that she preetty much makes her won decisions and
seems rather happy and advanced in many things.
Thanks
Meridith

--- polykowholsteins <polykow@...> wrote:

> I just came across this link....check out the book.
> http://www.mediafamily.org/
>
> Unbeleivable.{shake head)
> They people don't know why their kids grow up and
> are so unhappy, hate
> them, etc
>
>
> Alex
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kristen Hendricks

I would assume that eventually there will be a consequence to never telling your kids "no". What happens to an adult in a real-life situation when he/she is told know and doesn't know how to react? I would think this person would be very disappointed to realize that things don't always go their way.

I think that by never telling your child "no" you ar eonly creating problems for later down the road. I agree 100% with the book. Even though you may believe that kids need to find their own way and should be allowed to do what they want, they also need a parent to guide them and to tell them no at times. A child who is always told "yes" will eventually think thats just the way the world runs. And unfortunately, it doesn't.

Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~I guess we all have flabby kids them.
Alex~~

Yeah...whatever eh?

I see most "no's" as a closed door. My goal is to be more creative
than that. If I say "no", it has something to do with safety or
personal boundaries. My kids don't NEED to hear "no" in order to
thrive, that much I know.

I just got back from an evening perusing the art galleries and hanging
out at Acoustic Coffeehouse, chock full of adults that Sierra happily
chatted with. She looked through a bunch of items that a guy brought
back from Peru and purchased a handwoven bag. Earlier, she purchased a
handmade clay mug for her tea. On the way home she asked where Perus
is and informed me that she wants to go there soon.

I don't see any deficit in this child and I don't tell her "no" hardly
ever...in her entire life even! I remember one time we were visiting
family in Alaska and did a trip to the grocery store with my sister.
As we walked the aisles, Sierra asked for certain items and we picked
up whatever she wanted. By the third request, my sister says "Sierra,
does your mother EVER tell you 'no'?"

She looked at her auntie with this funny face and shook her head no.:)
Which wasn't entirely true, because there were times I had budgetary
limits or other real reasons for being careful, but arbitrary "no's"
have not been part of their world.

Phooey on people who think parents need to be the disciplinarian or
that "no" has some intrinsic value. We're living each day proving them
wrong.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com






*Kristen*
Kendall MacKenzie
8/30/2003
Riley Elizabeth
11/7/2005
Nolan Alexander
9/20/2006





---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kristen Hendricks

***So I guess in essence I
am saying no to that at times. Am I wrong.***

It does not matter what anyone here says. You don't need anyone to tell you if you are right or wrong. There is no way someone else shoudl even begin to tell you how to raise your child. Unless you are harming your child, you should do whatever you feel is right for him/her.

If that means setting some limits and saying no at times, so be it. My kids hear no alot, and so far- no casualties! They are all healthy, happy and thriving. :)

Kristen

Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky <polykow@...> wrote:
I don't . Simply don't. They can eat whatever, whe\never and as much as they want. But I do offer lots of heathy and organic foods many times a day, And I also try to buy the most healthy ice-cream etc
My ds is super healthy and we even talk about nutrition and healthy foods. He rarely binges in "junk" cause it does not hold power over him.

Alex

----- Original Message -----
From: Meridith Richardson
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Kids need to hear NO from parents/food

HOw do you go about limiting junk food. My daughter
would chose it for every meal. I make deals, "eat
this" and you can have that. But then I feel like she
doesn't understand why she can;t have Candy or ice
cream all throughout the day. So I guess in essence I
am saying no to that at times. Am I wrong. Other
than that she preetty much makes her won decisions and
seems rather happy and advanced in many things.
Thanks
Meridith

--- polykowholsteins <polykow@...> wrote:

> I just came across this link....check out the book.
> http://www.mediafamily.org/
>
> Unbeleivable.{shake head)
> They people don't know why their kids grow up and
> are so unhappy, hate
> them, etc
>
>
> Alex
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 5, 2007, at 5:09 PM, Meridith Richardson wrote:

> My daughter
> would chose it for every meal.

Anything limited becomes something to be coveted and desired. When
someone knows something is limited or could become limited without
warning, any opportunity to grab as much as you can while it's
possible will be taken. It's human nature. It happens every time
there's a gas crisis. A lot of people were scarred by deprivations
during WWII and have grown up with that underlying fear that there
could be a shortage.

When kids have confidence they can have as much as they want anytime
they want and it won't ever be limited, then they have as much as
they want and walk away. They have more interesting lives than to
become obsessed with a food! Unless we warp their environment so that
they focus too much on a particular food that they enjoy and might,
they fear, disappear.

If it's been limited and limits are lifted, they will usually eat
more than they want at the beginning. Then, as they gain confidence,
it will taper off until it just become food to eat when they want and
not eat when they don't.

Kids will often eat more of some foods than we would choose for them,
but it's part of unschooling life accepting and supporting the
differences of others.

There's a bit more about food at:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

scroll down on the right.

http://sandradodd.com/food

And

http://sandradodd.com/ifilet

might be enlightening too.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanne

Hi Meridith,

How old is your daughter and how long have you been unschooling?

Personally I've found that changing the way I thought about food and
eating had to happen first. Stop seeing some food as "junK is a good
place to start. Do you have honest, open discussions about nutrition
with her? Your daughter will choose what you call junk food first as
long as you "make deals" and give it so much power. At least that's
what I found in my experience.

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (14)
Adopted into our hearts October 2003
************************************
Unschooling Voices ~ Add Your Voice
www.foreverparents.com/UnschoolingVoices.html

Carrie Kimball

>>>HOw do you go about limiting junk food. My daughter

You don't have it in the house. You don't eat it yourself. Outside of that, healthy modeling and availability, you provide lots of healthy foods your child likes and the junk will be limited on its own. If you didn't start this from the time they are little, then you will be faced with a choice between controlling your childs food and letting go. I would choose the letting go. Some folks feel not purchasing junk food is controlling and disrespectful of the child, but in our house food that isn't nutritional doesn't get purchased with our extrememly tight budget. If we are out and the kids want an icecream sandwich, a lollipop, snack food, we buy as long as the money is there. But we do not have this stuff in the house where the choices are then about allowing free access or controlling food. I don't categorize junk food as "food" actually. Its full of antinutrients, so I feel no obligation to allocate food stamps to buying it. Others disagree with me.
I don't put junk food in my body because after recovering from a life threatening illness in my early twenties and seeing the poor health of most of my extended family, I don't buy the often promoted belief within the unschooling community that nutrition is all made up. People can eat as much junk as they want and they will self regulate and be healthy. I don't see this as a health care provider, as a parent who interacts with lots of other kids, as someone who was a nanny for over a decade or as someone who took part in raising siblings who are now teens. Kids are developing organs and organ systems. That is way different than having healthy ones already in place to handle high glycemic loads or to detox junk food.
I do however agree that having rules, controls and stress around food is absolutely detrimental to the parent child relationship and also to the childs internal response to food itself. If you have your fridge and cabinets full od soda, candy, snack food and stuff then you have created the situation where you need to hold your tongue and allow your child to regulate himself. Or engage in constant battles and nnegotiation around food which I have done with other kids and hated.
My kids are still young, and they may shift to the degree that we have to change what we are doing, but for now it has been no problem to simply not have this stuff around, to allow unfettered access when it is and their diet has a very very small percentage of junk.
I think we all have to be extrememly careful about an approach like this because the line is super sketchy between contolling access to food in an unhealthy wayand what I am describing. Kids have to be part of the dialogue and conversation as soon as they are able. It also helps if the place you are shopping is full of healthy choices for them to make, as our food co-op is.
hth,
carrie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sherkinpirate

A relevant, and amusing, example of how junk food limits are
unnecessary, happened in our house just last night...

We went out to the traditional 5th of January parade of the Three Wise
Men where they throw sweets to the crowd. My daughter S (3 years old)
was sitting on my shoulders and between us we managed to catch 2
sweets between us. Very disappointing.

Only we happen to live next door to the warehouse where they are
storing the parade floats, so once we got home we saw the floats
arriving back (exciting!) and one of the parade workers gave us an
ENORMOUS unopened bag of roughly 1000 boiled sweets.

It was dinner time. S wanted a sweet. No, "I want two!" she said. I
gave her two and she ate them. Then sat down for dinner and ate lots
of carrot sticks, which she really likes, and some bread. Turned up
her nose at the houmus, though. Since then she has completely ignored
the enormous bag of boiled sweets sitting on the kitchen counter. I
have no idea what we're going to do with them.

** pirateking **

Meridith Richardson

Very good point, about the deal. My daughter is 5, we
have just started the unschooling approach with
Kindergarten. So fairly new.
Meridith

--- Joanne <billyandjoanne@...> wrote:

> Hi Meridith,
>
> How old is your daughter and how long have you been
> unschooling?
>
> Personally I've found that changing the way I
> thought about food and
> eating had to happen first. Stop seeing some food as
> "junK is a good
> place to start. Do you have honest, open discussions
> about nutrition
> with her? Your daughter will choose what you call
> junk food first as
> long as you "make deals" and give it so much power.
> At least that's
> what I found in my experience.
>
> ~ Joanne ~
> Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (14)
> Adopted into our hearts October 2003
> ************************************
> Unschooling Voices ~ Add Your Voice
> www.foreverparents.com/UnschoolingVoices.html
>
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Mara

Same here, Both my 2 and 5 y.o. can eat whatever
whenever they want. They never hear NO about food or
much else for that matter. If they wanted they could
eat icecream and sweets all day long. But they don't,
they are just as likely to pick a plate of Bok Choy or
green beans (my 2 y.o.) or request a bowl of freshly
mashed avocado with chips (my 5 y.o.), and when we go
out to eat they often tell the server, no, they don't
feel like any dessert, and no, they don't want any
lollipops (at the bank). At other times, sure, we try
one of each variety. Occasionally they do ask for ice
cream for breakfast and since we mostly shop at Whole
Foods we usually have healthy varieties around. THey
are very healthy and rarely get sick. If they do, they
get over it quickly.
All the best,
Mara

--- Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky <polykow@...>
wrote:

> I don't . Simply don't. They can eat whatever,
> whe\never and as much as they want. But I do offer
> lots of heathy and organic foods many times a day,
> And I also try to buy the most healthy ice-cream etc
> My ds is super healthy and we even talk about
> nutrition and healthy foods. He rarely binges in
> "junk" cause it does not hold power over him.
>
> Alex
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Meridith Richardson
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Kids need to hear
> NO from parents/food
>
>
> HOw do you go about limiting junk food. My
> daughter
> would chose it for every meal. I make deals, "eat
> this" and you can have that. But then I feel like
> she
> doesn't understand why she can;t have Candy or ice
> cream all throughout the day. So I guess in
> essence I
> am saying no to that at times. Am I wrong. Other
> than that she preetty much makes her won decisions
> and
> seems rather happy and advanced in many things.
> Thanks
> Meridith
>
> --- polykowholsteins <polykow@...> wrote:
>
> > I just came across this link....check out the
> book.
> > http://www.mediafamily.org/
> >
> > Unbeleivable.{shake head)
> > They people don't know why their kids grow up
> and
> > are so unhappy, hate
> > them, etc
> >
> >
> > Alex
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>




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Deb Lewis

***I would assume that eventually there will be a consequence to never
telling your
kids "no". ***

I think never saying "no" would be impossible. Unschoolers are talking
about arbitrary or reactive negative responses to kids and better ways we
might interact so that we're in partnership with our kids.

Life has it's limits. When Dylan wanted a Basset hound we talked about why
that would be difficult. Our town has a two dog ordinance. We didn't meet
the requirements (mostly zoning concerns) for getting a kennel license that
would have allowed another dog. We were not in a position, financially, to
move out of town. We were not willing to part with one or the other of the
two dogs we already had. All of that made sense to Dylan. I still didn't
say "no." We talked about the possibility of one of our out of town
friends keeping a Basset hound for us. We looked into getting a special
exemption from the two dog limit. We investigated all the other
possibilities we could think of and what we found was that Dylan would be
satisfied with a Basset friend. I approached a family we knew who had a
Basset and they were happy for Dylan to walk him (or be walked by him ) and
happy to arrange times when Dylan could go and play with him and Dylan was
happy to look after him if his people had to go out of town.

I also called my sister, who had Basset hounds many years ago, before Dylan
was born, and asked if she'd tell Dylan about her dogs. She wrote letters
to Dylan, sent pictures of her dogs and shared stories about the crazy
things they did.

Without me saying "no" Dylan came to understand there were real reasons it
would be difficult to have a Basset hound as part of our family AND his need
to have some experience with Basset hounds was fulfilled. That wouldn't
have happened for him if I had said. "No."

***What happens to an adult in a real-life situation when he/she is told
know and doesn't know how to react?***

There are few if any scenarios in which an American could grow to adulthood
and never hear "no" or understand the concept of "no." That's because
there are natural limits to what humans can do. We all find that out
sooner than we like - when we want to get our own glass from a cupboard
three feet above our tallest, tippy toe stretch.

What happens when parents find ways to say "yes" even in naturally limiting
situations is a child learns how to problem solve, how to think in new ways,
how to clarify what it is they do want and then what steps to take so that
the thing might happen.

***I think that by never telling your child "no" you ar eonly creating
problems
for later down the road. I agree 100% with the book. ***

And the possibility of "never telling a child "no," " is pretty slim.
Parents will sometimes not have the money for a piano or a new bike or a
trip to the ocean. That's the reality of life. What unschoolers try to do
is avoid the arbitrary "NO." The "no's" that come from not thinking well
or carefully, the "no's" that come from not being interested enough in what
our kids want, the "no's " that come from not wanting to be inconvenienced
by our kids.
So their might not be money for a piano but there might be a used keyboard
in the right price range. Or, there might be a piano at the community
center or church or a friend's house and arrangements might be made to go
play. If a new bike is not in the budget maybe fixing and repainting an
old bike is. Maybe there's a bike for sale and the owner would take
installments. If a trip to the ocean is not possible maybe a trip to a
lake with a beach is possible, or a walk along the river, or exploring in a
stream. Maybe a day at the pool would fulfill the need for big water
adventure. Many times a solution can be found, a way to say "yes" can be
found, if a parent is willing to listen to what a child really wants and to
think in creative ways.

"No" shuts down communication, limits possibilities and creates bad
feelings. It should be avoided whenever possible. Unschooling should be
very much about communicating well with our kids, finding more possibilities
for them to live in a big world and building a close relationship with them.

***Even though you may believe that kids need to find their own way and
should be allowed to do what they want,***

No one here has EVER said that. Kids should not have to and do not need to
find their own way. Kids need our full attention and involvement in their
lives in the most thoughtful and dedicated ways. Neglect has NOTHING to do
with a child being helped to achieve his goals.

Some links that will help your understanding of unschooling:

http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition.html
http://sandradodd.com/freedom
http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/yes
http://sandradodd.com/respect
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulness

Deb Lewis

Crystal Miller

<< I remember one time we were visiting family in Alaska and did a trip to
the grocery store with my sister. As we walked the aisles, Sierra asked for
certain items and we picked up whatever she wanted. By the third request, my
sister says "Sierra, does your mother EVER tell you 'no'?">>

**The other day Sorscha and I went grocery shopping and I went to put some
items in the cart and noticed that she had also put some items in there. A
first because we have gone through our unschooling phases over the last year
(I always said no, then I always said yes, then she always asked even though
I felt she knew I'd always say yes, then...)

There were two boxes of Smuckers Grilled Cheeses. I guess she's on the kick
again. (here:
http://daikinicrossroads.blogspot.com/2006/11/find-way-to-make-it-happen.html)
1-12 pack of pizza pockets
1-some Yo-Baby Yogurts (that she wanted to hide underneath everything
because they are for babies)
1 bottle of kid vitamins

I thought to myself, "I guess that she knows I'll say yes so she just shops
for her needs." I thought that was soooo cool. It was a wonderful RUing
moment where Mom & daughter were shopping together as partners. Sorscha
even picked out several items that she thought Dave (DH) would like.
~Crystal~

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/6/2007 10:13:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kristenhendricks55@... writes:

I think that by never telling your child "no" you ar eonly creating problems
for later down the road. I agree 100% with the book. Even though you may
believe that kids need to find their own way and should be allowed to do what
they want, they also need a parent to guide them and to tell them no at times.
A child who is always told "yes" will eventually think thats just the way the
world runs. And unfortunately, it doesn't.



*********

I think the only way this would happen is that the child is NEVER given any
information on how his choices impact others and situations. Or the parents
behave that way (I've seen many people who are like this...why does no one in
my town put the shopping carts in the corral area of the parking lot???? I
digress <g>).

There is permissive parenting (just letting the child do what they want
because the parent doesn't want to get involved) and there is responsive
parenting where the parent is involved and offering guidance and information in each
situation. We are advocating responsive parenting.

My kids aren't good at noticing consequences, especially ones that aren't
right in their face. So I point them out when it is a good time to do so. "If
you leave your scooter in the drive-way, Daddy has to get out of his car and
move it when he comes home from work". After a few times, it sinks in.
Information....not threats like "I'll take your scooter away if you don't stop
leaving it in the driveway". I think the information suggestion will help my
kids continue to understand consequences of actions.....a good trait that
many adults don't really have....and the threats are more focused on how to not
get in trouble. I would rather my kids learn the skills about how actions
can influence people and things and how to give other people useful information.

Some kids will notice that others are always moving the scooters and will
adjust accordingly without verbal information. Just like my son brought in the
trash cans from the street yesterday after the trash had been picked up...no
one told him to. He just saw us do it and he decided to bring them in.

I'll take a page from Joyce. How would you like your spouse to treat you?
With information or a "no"?

Leslie in SC



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***I don't buy the often promoted belief within the unschooling
community that nutrition is all made up. ***

I've never read that anywhere nor have I heard it "promoted" nor even hinted
at. That's just absolutely false.

Many of us are smart enough and well informed enough to know the value of
protein, vitamins, minerals or the role of carbohydrates or fiber in a
healthy diet.

The idea is not that nutrition is "all made up" or not important or that all
foods are equal, nutritionally speaking. The idea behind not
classifying some foods as "junk" and some foods as "good" is that it
interferes with or even prevents a child from making a personal choice.
And when a child's psychology is altered by feelings of guilt or shame or a
desire to make mom happy he cannot make personal discoveries about his own
feelings of wellness as they relate to food choices.

If a child would like to try a commercially prepared cookie but her mother
has strong feelings that it is "junk," one or all of several things might
happen.

The child may deny herself the cookie, hoping instead to live up to the
mom's ideal of good eating and that does not contribute to her learning
about making good choices for herself. That is about pleasing mom. A
child may regret not eating the cookie or feel guilty about even wanting it
in the first place. A child might eat the cookie and feel badly that she's
disappointed her mom. All of that is about the mom and the mom's choices.
The child has no real choice there, to decide for or against the cookie
without being or feeling judged. If food is related to feelings of guilt
or shame it cannot be easily related to feelings of ill or wellness. We
don't learn what foods make us feel good, *physically* if we're in that
stranglehold of guilt.

I'm confident that my child has a good mind and can make good choices. I
have proof now, after almost fifteen years that he does indeed make good
choices. He makes good choices because he's been able to make choices his
whole life. He's had lots of help from us but the learning is his, the
understanding is his.

One of my hopes for Dylan from the beginning was that he would be confident
in his own decision making ability. I believe one of the ways a child's
confidence and decision making is undermined by parents is when a child is
under pressure, subtle or overt, to make the choices the parents would make.

So a life where there is plenty of wholesome food available and where
parents are making good food choices or talking about how they feel after
eating more than they should have is a learning life. A life where some
foods are classified as little more than garbage and a decision to eat it
anyway brings feelings of shame is a dysfunctional life.

The only people in my house who have food issues are my husband and myself.
We grew up in families where budget and judgment dictated what we could eat.
My husband, at forty seven still squirrels chocolate away in cubbies and
drawers even though no one else in the house eats milk chocolate, so
precious it is to him he can't bear to be without it. Black olives are a
staple in my pantry and I will open and eat a whole can when I'm by myself,
they were rare and limited when I was little. My son, who can have
anything he wants (within my ability to get it for him) does not horde or
binge. He asked for his favorite kind of cookie Wednesday when we were
going to watch a movie and I made them. He's had two cookies since
Wednesday. Two cookies, from a jar filled with his favorite kind of
cookies.

Good reading about food here:
http://sandradodd.com/food

Deb Lewis

Deb Lewis

***How do you go about limiting junk food.***

By junk food do you mean sweets?

I didn't limit it. I made sure there were many nutritious food choices
easily available to my kid. Lots of snacks handy, at the ready. I took him
little snacks of food when he was playing, little sandwiches shaped like
Godzilla - little balls of falafel and cut up fresh cauliflower and some
hummus to dip them into.

***My daughter would chose it for every meal.***

I think you're exaggerating. Right now she might choose it A LOT because
you've made it rare and desirable but she would not choose it forever, for
every meal if she has many foods to choose from. Please take some time to
read here:
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet

***I make deals, "eat this" and you can have that. ***

People eat for fuel. People also eat to socialize. People should never
eat because broccoli equals ice-cream. That doesn't make sense, it's not
healthy it's the kind of method that has led to people over eating because
they cram in the "good for you" stuff just so they can get to the stuff they
wanted in the first place.

http://sandradodd.com/food

***But then I feel like she doesn't understand why she can;t have Candy or
ice
cream all throughout the day. ***

It seems like you don't even understand it.<g> If she can have ice-cream
at six thirty at night why not at seven in the morning? What about the ice
cream makes it ok at one hour and not the other?

Deb Lewis

Deb Lewis

***It does not matter what anyone here says. You don't need anyone to tell
you if
you are right or wrong. There is no way someone else shoudl even begin to
tell
you how to raise your child. Unless you are harming your child, you should
do
whatever you feel is right for him/her.***

This list has a stated purpose. That is to help people understand
unschooling. People who are interested in unschooling should be able to
get advice here that helps them move closer to their goal.

No list member here has to change her parenting or take any of the
suggestions here and apply them to life at home. But if a person wants to
live an unschooling lifestyle then there are some changes they can make that
will help them achieve that lifestyle. Advice given at this list should be
about helping people move toward unschooling.

Nearly every mainstream parenting book, magazine, email list or forum will
give the "Do what you think is best" advice to parents. We're not those.
We not trying to be those. We're trying to help people, here of their own
free will, to move in a direction they themselves think they might want to
move.

Deb Lewis

Ren Allen

~~There is no way someone else shoudl even begin to tell
you how to raise your child. Unless you are harming your child, you
should do
whatever you feel is right for him/her.~~

But this list exists to give information about letting go of arbitrary
limits and how to move closer to unschooling. Unschooling at it's
essence is about trust. We believe that it's rather hypocritical to
say "I trust you to learn whatever you want, when you're ready" and
then limit their food, games etc... because that is all part of their
learning also.

If living is learning, then eating, gaming and EVERYTHING under the
sun falls into the "learning" category.

People join this list to learn more about unschooling. We ARE here to
give and receive advice. If you don't think unschooling is for you,
then maybe this isn't the best list.

Lots and lots of things harm children without an immediate, obvious
sign that it's harmful. My parents loved me deeply and were very
nurturing. They would have believe they were doing everything because
it was best for me. They did some damage.

What a parent feels is right is often wrapped up in the way they were
raised. It's good to examine those ideas and reactions to see if they
ARE indeed harmful or not. That's what we're here to do.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~A child who is always told "yes" will eventually think thats just
the way the world runs. And unfortunately, it doesn't.~~

Really? Mine does.:)

Being told "yes" isn't a problem. I have four children that are quite
socially adept and don't hear arbitrary "no's". We come up against
real life limitations, like the fact that my body gets tired, or I
don't have money etc...., but I don't tell them "no" just so they can
hear that word.

I believe we CAN have most anything we want, we just might have to get
creative in order to achieve it. If I say "no" without thought, then I
limit creative thought processes. "No" closes doors. "Let's think
about how we can do that" opens up the creative process.

"That isn't safe" is a form of "no" perhaps, but we then move on to
thinking about ways for that person to do the very thing that wasn't
safe in it's original form. If they want to balance on something
precarious and unsafe, we can find something to balance on that is
safer. If they want to throw rocks where it isn't a good place, we can
find a safe place to throw them OR throw something softer. In any
case, the need can be met.

I take my children seriously. Their needs and desires are no less
important than my own. My "guidance" comes in the form of helping them
safely achieve whatever it is they want. That has led to some very
thoughtful, creative and interesting children. I trust them.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 6, 2007, at 3:13 PM, Deb Lewis wrote:

> It seems like you don't even understand it.<g> If she can have
> ice-cream
> at six thirty at night why not at seven in the morning? What about
> the ice
> cream makes it ok at one hour and not the other?

I asked my daughter (she's 15) one day -- since she can have cake and
ice cream for breakfast -- why she doesn't. She said because she
doesn't feel like having them for breakfast and she doesn't want to
take the "specialness" away from them by having them all the time.

If we treat kids as though they are creatures who want only to make
all the wrong choices and the only thing that prevents them are our
rules, they *will* behave that way when we let go of the rules. But
that's not because kids are inherently bad. It's because rules make
people want what others are saying they aren't ready to handle.
Saying you can't is a personal challenge to most people! In fact it's
often a trick to get a child to do some physical act (jump off a
wall, go down a slide, etc.) by saying "You can't doing that"! Why
would it make sense that that tactic would work to *stop* kids from
wanting to do something?

Joycwe

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meridith Richardson

Very interesting points. One of the reasons this has
become forefront in my mind is that I am afraid of
eating problems as she grows. I do not want her to be
an overeater, or God forbid bulimic, or any other of
the numerous eating disorders. We rarely keep sweets
in the house and try to eat lots of Raw food and
juices. But I think that us NOT keeping it in the
house had caused her to want it more when she goes to
thers kids house and I let her eat their snacks and
treats. I have recently started breaking down and
keeping sweets around and now I feel she is obsessed
with them. So I think I may allow her to start
choosing her foods but offering them in conjunction
with Hummus, and carrot juice etc. She really likes
the juice and vegan food as well. I have alot of
thinking to do.
Thanks for all the input!
Meridith

--- Deb Lewis <d.lewis@...> wrote:

> ***How do you go about limiting junk food.***
>
> By junk food do you mean sweets?
>
> I didn't limit it. I made sure there were many
> nutritious food choices
> easily available to my kid. Lots of snacks handy,
> at the ready. I took him
> little snacks of food when he was playing, little
> sandwiches shaped like
> Godzilla - little balls of falafel and cut up fresh
> cauliflower and some
> hummus to dip them into.
>
> ***My daughter would chose it for every meal.***
>
> I think you're exaggerating. Right now she might
> choose it A LOT because
> you've made it rare and desirable but she would not
> choose it forever, for
> every meal if she has many foods to choose from.
> Please take some time to
> read here:
> http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
>
> ***I make deals, "eat this" and you can have that.
> ***
>
> People eat for fuel. People also eat to socialize.
> People should never
> eat because broccoli equals ice-cream. That doesn't
> make sense, it's not
> healthy it's the kind of method that has led to
> people over eating because
> they cram in the "good for you" stuff just so they
> can get to the stuff they
> wanted in the first place.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/food
>
> ***But then I feel like she doesn't understand why
> she can;t have Candy or
> ice
> cream all throughout the day. ***
>
> It seems like you don't even understand it.<g> If
> she can have ice-cream
> at six thirty at night why not at seven in the
> morning? What about the ice
> cream makes it ok at one hour and not the other?
>
> Deb Lewis
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Shannon

Kristen wrote: "A child who is always told "yes" will eventually think thats just the way the world runs. And unfortunately, it doesn't."

And a child who is always told "no" will also think that it's just the way the world runs!

I just think that is a very poor outlook on life! If I tell myself that "that's the way it is" then you can bet that's the way it's going to be! - Because I'll make it so from my belief that "that's just the way it is"

Now, you can apply that negatively (no) or positively (yes).

Why wouldn't you want to make a child happy all the time? I would guess if I didn't want to make my child happy all the time, it's only because I'm unhappy myself and life isn't fair and he needs to know that "it's how it is." - It just doesn't make sense.

YES or NO - You make your life the way you want it. If you want a happy life you need to start some place and if there is an attitude of "NO is how life is" it will never be found for you or children.

Shannon





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen

You can put make salt dough decorations with a hole in the centre and place
the boiled lolly inside the hole, bake as normal and you have some lovely
decorations!

The boiled lolly looks like stained glass.

Karen

On 07/01/07, sherkinpirate <pirateking@...> wrote:
>
> A relevant, and amusing, example of how junk food limits are
> unnecessary, happened in our house just last night...
>
> We went out to the traditional 5th of January parade of the Three Wise
> Men where they throw sweets to the crowd. My daughter S (3 years old)
> was sitting on my shoulders and between us we managed to catch 2
> sweets between us. Very disappointing.
>
> Only we happen to live next door to the warehouse where they are
> storing the parade floats, so once we got home we saw the floats
> arriving back (exciting!) and one of the parade workers gave us an
> ENORMOUS unopened bag of roughly 1000 boiled sweets.
>
> It was dinner time. S wanted a sweet. No, "I want two!" she said. I
> gave her two and she ate them. Then sat down for dinner and ate lots
> of carrot sticks, which she really likes, and some bread. Turned up
> her nose at the houmus, though. Since then she has completely ignored
> the enormous bag of boiled sweets sitting on the kitchen counter. I
> have no idea what we're going to do with them.
>
> ** pirateking **
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Manisha Kher

--- Kristen Hendricks <kristenhendricks55@...>
wrote:

> I would assume that eventually there will be a
> consequence to never telling your kids "no". What
> happens to an adult in a real-life situation when
> he/she is told know and doesn't know how to react? I
> would think this person would be very disappointed
> to realize that things don't always go their way.
I'm about 40 messages behind, so no doubt others have
replied to this. But I'll add my voice anyway.

I try very hard to not say No. But that doesn't mean
my kids always get their own way. First of all,
there's two of them. So naturally there are a few
conflicts and that means one of the kids sometimes
doesn't get his or her way, right away. Secondly,
there are plenty of real limitations. We get tired,
something doesn't fit in our budget, playdates have to
be cancelled because someone gets sick, the weather
does not co-operate...

Speaking of weather, ds5 has been patiently waiting
for some snow to go sledding in since about, um, July.
And we have 70 degree weather here in Massachusetts! I
see no need to teach him that things don't always go
the way he wants. He knows plenty of disappointment
already.


> Even though you may
> believe that kids need to find their own way and
> should be allowed to do what they want, they also
> need a parent to guide them and to tell them no at
> times.
I'm not sure what gave you the impression that an
unschooling parent is not guiding their children.
You're setting up a false dichotomy between letting
them do what they want and guiding them. I believe
that I let them do what they want, within real natural
limits, and I guide them when necessary.

Manisha







____________________________________________________________________________________
Have a burning question?
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.

Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky

Meredith wrote:

Very interesting points. One of the reasons this has
become forefront in my mind is that I am afraid of
eating problems as she grows. I do not want her to be
an overeater, or God forbid bulimic, or any other of
the numerous eating disorders. We rarely keep sweets
in the house and try to eat lots of Raw food and
juices. But I think that us NOT keeping it in the
house had caused her to want it more when she goes to
thers kids house and I let her eat their snacks and
treats. I have recently started breaking down and
keeping sweets around and now I feel she is obsessed
with them. So I think I may allow her to start
choosing her foods but offering them in conjunction
with Hummus, and carrot juice etc. She really likes
the juice and vegan food as well. I have alot of
thinking to do.
Thanks for all the inpu

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Here is my sons pop story:


My Ds was born and I became and AP parent and since me and hubby are very health conscious I wanted him to have the best nutrition.
He still breastfeeds at 4 and a half!!!!!
But when he started eating solids I gave him only the organic , extremely healthy stuff. I did not allow my hubby to have pop or his cookies in the house. he is a runner and burn LOTS of calories so he need them ( lol).
I did that because if there was any in the house and my ds wanted it just felt wrong to say no to him. I felt it was him choice and I should respect it. That was before I knew anything about unschooling.
When he was about 2 and a half I was more relaxed but still did not want to have pop in the house. He could have it with daddy when he was out in the farm or he saw it somewhere and asked for it.
So every time he was out he wanted one and drank lots of it. At that time I found this list and AU and started reading about unschooling your whole life.
It all made so much sense that I finally let go and we stated buying his pop and having it in the refrigerator. The first couple of months he drank a lot ( well maybe the most 3 a day). But now he rarely does ( maybe one a week- no kidding) and he usually opens one to take a sip or tow and that is all he wants. He says he likes to drink water.
Today we went to out Health Club and had lunch there. I asked : What do you want to drink: pop, milk or Naked Red Machine? He picked milk and the Naked fruit smoothie.
My sister limits my 5 and almost 3 year old nephews. She keeps the candy and sweets stashed and they know it and there are no sanks available for the kids to go get themselves. Every time I go to her house they want to scavenger my car for sweets or any snacks (even Cheddar Bunnies). We always have stuff in the car because we may buy a bag and it never gets eaten so it just sits there. Her kids go wild...
Alex

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

It does not matter what anyone here says
*********
It sure as heck does to me!!
Why even show up on a discussion list and then state that the time, energy, thought and caring that the many experienced unschoolers put into their many many posts "doesn't matter"?
If someone came to me to find out some wisdom I may hold, and then told me, "Well, what you say doesn't matter anyway" I would be highly insulted.
There are probably THOUSANDS of yahoolists that will happily tell whoever joins that whatever they do is fine and say no as much as you can, cause it ain't gonna harm a kid to hear it, they might as well get used to it.
BAH.
Elissa Jill
OTN:
silk/wool blend tie front mini sweater
http://mystikmusings.blogspot.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jlh44music

"Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
>What unschoolers try to do is avoid the arbitrary "NO." The "no's"
that come from not thinking well or carefully, the "no's" that come
from not being interested enough in what our kids want, the "no's "
that come from not wanting to be inconvenienced by our kids.>>

I think you sum it up quite well here Deb!

***Even though you may believe that kids need to find their own way
and should be allowed to do what they want,***
> No one here has EVER said that. Kids should not have to and do not
need to find their own way. Kids need our full attention and
involvement in their lives in the most thoughtful and dedicated
ways. Neglect has NOTHING to do with a child being helped to
achieve his goals.>

I see this as a big part of many misunderstandings on this topic.
"No" can be thought of as the "end of the discussion". I agree with
what someone wrote (not sure if it was this post), the *word* "NO"
isn't necessarily used, but discussion ensues, ideas discussed,
everyone heard. That doesn't mean they "get what they want" etc
(implied to be a bad outcome...).
Jann