thoughts about the intrinsic value of toys?
alisonslp
I am trying so hard to just view my kids' toys, games, activities as
just that, with no underlying expectations. But enevitably, the
thoughts enter my mind - this is great for their ____ {fill in the
blank}. For the holidays and recently at a consignment sale, I have
done a better job of asking "will they like this?" instead of "what
can they get from this?" But as they play with toys, my thoughts
revert back.
Is this something that you all think about as well? Is it an ongoing
battle that gradually gets easier until you don't notice anymore or is
it something that stays with you, though you might not express it to
your children?
I have been working on the type of comments I make to the children -
making sure they are in the moment and related to my observations of
their joy or frustrations, rather that relatin gthem to what they
may/may not be learning. But in my head, those comments are still
there, if that makes sense.
alison
just that, with no underlying expectations. But enevitably, the
thoughts enter my mind - this is great for their ____ {fill in the
blank}. For the holidays and recently at a consignment sale, I have
done a better job of asking "will they like this?" instead of "what
can they get from this?" But as they play with toys, my thoughts
revert back.
Is this something that you all think about as well? Is it an ongoing
battle that gradually gets easier until you don't notice anymore or is
it something that stays with you, though you might not express it to
your children?
I have been working on the type of comments I make to the children -
making sure they are in the moment and related to my observations of
their joy or frustrations, rather that relatin gthem to what they
may/may not be learning. But in my head, those comments are still
there, if that makes sense.
alison
Julie Peters
Alison,
<<>>...I have done a better job of asking "[WILL] they like this?"
instead of "what [CAN] they get from this?" But as they play with
toys, my thoughts revert back.<<>>
Have you thought about asking yourself "WHY will they like this?" or
as you are watching them play asking yourself, "what ARE *THEY*
getting from THIS?". (I see your question above more as "what do
*I* want them to get from this?".) Training yourself to re-word
your questions may satisfy both your want to meet their interests
and your need for "educational" play.
My son loves toys, and yes, I tend to think some of them
are "mindless". However, if I stop to think about "why" he likes a
toy or "how" he is playing with it my perpective usually changes.
All play is practice for something...whether it is "mindless" or not.
I started thinking this way when I began trying to explain how
unschooling works to others. I kept referring to things like my son
playing with Legos. As he plays he's developing skills like
creativity, architecture, physics, math, etc. Same goes for cars,
construction vehicles, etc.
If he's simply playing with a straw at a restraunt
(pretty "mindless", right?) he's experimenting with the flexibility
and strength of polymers, air flow & pressure, suction, and several
fluid theories all of which are classified as advanced physics (not
so "mindless" anymore, huh?).
I used to think that my son couldn't read b/c he wasn't reading what
we asked him to. So I would put reading "stuff" in his path.
Needless, to say I wasted money and time. The "mindless"
video/computer games, cartoons, and comics were what he WAS
reading...and doing a mighty fine job of it. I just didn't see it
because I was too caught up in the activities being "mindless".
KWIM?
What we would consider "mindless" simply isn't to a child. No more
than the "mindless" soaking in a bubble bath is for you. You're
pondering, daydreaming, relaxing, letting go of stress, possibly
planning the day, collecting yourself, getting clean, exfoliating,
etc. In other words, you're becoming a better Mommy. "Mindless"
play makes kids better kids.
Just because it seems "mindless" doesn't mean it's not worth doing.
HTH,
Julie Peters
<<>>...I have done a better job of asking "[WILL] they like this?"
instead of "what [CAN] they get from this?" But as they play with
toys, my thoughts revert back.<<>>
Have you thought about asking yourself "WHY will they like this?" or
as you are watching them play asking yourself, "what ARE *THEY*
getting from THIS?". (I see your question above more as "what do
*I* want them to get from this?".) Training yourself to re-word
your questions may satisfy both your want to meet their interests
and your need for "educational" play.
My son loves toys, and yes, I tend to think some of them
are "mindless". However, if I stop to think about "why" he likes a
toy or "how" he is playing with it my perpective usually changes.
All play is practice for something...whether it is "mindless" or not.
I started thinking this way when I began trying to explain how
unschooling works to others. I kept referring to things like my son
playing with Legos. As he plays he's developing skills like
creativity, architecture, physics, math, etc. Same goes for cars,
construction vehicles, etc.
If he's simply playing with a straw at a restraunt
(pretty "mindless", right?) he's experimenting with the flexibility
and strength of polymers, air flow & pressure, suction, and several
fluid theories all of which are classified as advanced physics (not
so "mindless" anymore, huh?).
I used to think that my son couldn't read b/c he wasn't reading what
we asked him to. So I would put reading "stuff" in his path.
Needless, to say I wasted money and time. The "mindless"
video/computer games, cartoons, and comics were what he WAS
reading...and doing a mighty fine job of it. I just didn't see it
because I was too caught up in the activities being "mindless".
KWIM?
What we would consider "mindless" simply isn't to a child. No more
than the "mindless" soaking in a bubble bath is for you. You're
pondering, daydreaming, relaxing, letting go of stress, possibly
planning the day, collecting yourself, getting clean, exfoliating,
etc. In other words, you're becoming a better Mommy. "Mindless"
play makes kids better kids.
Just because it seems "mindless" doesn't mean it's not worth doing.
HTH,
Julie Peters
riasplace3
--- In [email protected], "alisonslp" <alisonslp@...>
wrote:
more you internalize it, even though you might not notice it at first,
it begins to make a difference in your thinking. I've been reading on
unschooling for something like 3 years, and there is a huge difference
in the way I think. Some things just sneak up on me...I'll be doing
something and it comes out unschooley, and I'm surprised. : ) Other
times I realize it's different than I would have done in the past, and
it makes me glad.
Just keep reading, keep studying, keep learning all you can about
unschooling. Some day you'll be surprised that you haven't thought
about "school" in days, then weeks, then years. ; )
Ria
wrote:
> Is this something that you all think about as well? Is it an ongoingThe more you read...groups like this, Sandra's site, Joyce's site...the
> battle that gradually gets easier until you don't notice anymore or is
> it something that stays with you, though you might not express it to
> your children?
more you internalize it, even though you might not notice it at first,
it begins to make a difference in your thinking. I've been reading on
unschooling for something like 3 years, and there is a huge difference
in the way I think. Some things just sneak up on me...I'll be doing
something and it comes out unschooley, and I'm surprised. : ) Other
times I realize it's different than I would have done in the past, and
it makes me glad.
Just keep reading, keep studying, keep learning all you can about
unschooling. Some day you'll be surprised that you haven't thought
about "school" in days, then weeks, then years. ; )
Ria
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/5/2007 12:49:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
alisonslp@... writes:
I am trying so hard to just view my kids' toys, games, activities as
just that, with no underlying expectations. But enevitably, the
thoughts enter my mind - this is great for their ____ {fill in the
blank}. For the holidays and recently at a consignment sale, I have
done a better job of asking "will they like this?" instead of "what
can they get from this?" But as they play with toys, my thoughts
revert back.
Is this something that you all think about as well?
***************
Hi Alison. My first thought when reading your post was about something I
read a long time ago about Maria Montessori. She noticed a child walking down
the street with his mother, she stopped to have a chat with someone. The
child picked up a piece of paper and explored it. Montessori watched the child,
noticing that he played with this paper and "came to know it". What are
your children coming to know about the things they are doing?
The truth is.....you will probably never know! Experiencing life is all in
the mind of the individual. Can you truly know what "green" is like to
another person? We all point to something and agree that it is green, but does
that other person see what you see?
So step back and observe your children, not to see what they are learning
but to watch how they explore the world around them. It is really cool.
Einstein (I have heard) said that 90% of the physics a person will know in a
lifetime is learned in the first three years of life. I have read that a study in
the sixties concluded that school learning only accounts for 5 % of a
person's total learning (long before the tech age). Where are we getting the other
95%???? Life. Experience. Just being. Totally cool!
I also like to think what life would look like if you got to take an
unlimited vacation and have the ability to do nothing or everything. All your needs
are completely taken care of, food and cleaning, money. You can do anything
you want, no worries. How would you spend your time? At first you would
probably indulge yourself, but then you might find yourself in rhythms of doing
and resting, wanting to be with others and being alone, "mindless" TV
watching to reading classic novels to NYTimes Crosswords. You might crave cleaning
up after yourself or cooking for yourself. You might lie on the grass and
stare at the clouds while your brain is in complete creative mode...composing
a symphony or thinking on how to solve the worlds problems. You might start
an organic garden or chop wood. Your brain and body would find the optimum
states and rhythms of each moment and preparing for tomorrow's whims or plans.
It is what we are programmed to do by nature, after taking care of our
basic needs for survival.
Keep reading and examining your thoughts. Figure out where you might be
getting in the way of your children's natural learning and life rhythms. Don't
worry when those old thoughts creep in, they will! Make a cup of tea and
watch your kids instead. Or get down on the floor and play a mindless game,
too. :)
Have fun!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
alisonslp@... writes:
I am trying so hard to just view my kids' toys, games, activities as
just that, with no underlying expectations. But enevitably, the
thoughts enter my mind - this is great for their ____ {fill in the
blank}. For the holidays and recently at a consignment sale, I have
done a better job of asking "will they like this?" instead of "what
can they get from this?" But as they play with toys, my thoughts
revert back.
Is this something that you all think about as well?
***************
Hi Alison. My first thought when reading your post was about something I
read a long time ago about Maria Montessori. She noticed a child walking down
the street with his mother, she stopped to have a chat with someone. The
child picked up a piece of paper and explored it. Montessori watched the child,
noticing that he played with this paper and "came to know it". What are
your children coming to know about the things they are doing?
The truth is.....you will probably never know! Experiencing life is all in
the mind of the individual. Can you truly know what "green" is like to
another person? We all point to something and agree that it is green, but does
that other person see what you see?
So step back and observe your children, not to see what they are learning
but to watch how they explore the world around them. It is really cool.
Einstein (I have heard) said that 90% of the physics a person will know in a
lifetime is learned in the first three years of life. I have read that a study in
the sixties concluded that school learning only accounts for 5 % of a
person's total learning (long before the tech age). Where are we getting the other
95%???? Life. Experience. Just being. Totally cool!
I also like to think what life would look like if you got to take an
unlimited vacation and have the ability to do nothing or everything. All your needs
are completely taken care of, food and cleaning, money. You can do anything
you want, no worries. How would you spend your time? At first you would
probably indulge yourself, but then you might find yourself in rhythms of doing
and resting, wanting to be with others and being alone, "mindless" TV
watching to reading classic novels to NYTimes Crosswords. You might crave cleaning
up after yourself or cooking for yourself. You might lie on the grass and
stare at the clouds while your brain is in complete creative mode...composing
a symphony or thinking on how to solve the worlds problems. You might start
an organic garden or chop wood. Your brain and body would find the optimum
states and rhythms of each moment and preparing for tomorrow's whims or plans.
It is what we are programmed to do by nature, after taking care of our
basic needs for survival.
Keep reading and examining your thoughts. Figure out where you might be
getting in the way of your children's natural learning and life rhythms. Don't
worry when those old thoughts creep in, they will! Make a cup of tea and
watch your kids instead. Or get down on the floor and play a mindless game,
too. :)
Have fun!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tracy Willis
I'm new to the group and just learning the basics of unschooling, so if I'm out of line, please forgive me. I don't see a problem with "learning toys" or toys that contribute to a child's education. There's a big difference with drilling a child to learn their alphabet by 5 years old, or giving your child a set of alphabet cookie cutters to play in with some homemade play dough. From what I've read, a big part of unschooling is to fill your home with materials of educational value and letting the child explore them in their own way and on their own terms. So, if you buy or are given a toy with some educational value, you haven't broken any moral codes by thinking to yourself "Gee, I bet that will really help Junior to learn to recognize his numbers." After all, every time you add a book to your home library, aren't you doing so with the idea in mind that your child will learn something from that book. I was reading on a website this evening about a mom who says her home is
like a museum, filled to capacity with toys and trinkets and gadgets that will foster imagination, creativity, and learning. She's collected things over the years with all of this in mind. I think it is our job to introduce our children to new concepts (I don't mean through worksheets and textbooks) but by bringing these interesting objects into our homes, then letting the child examine them and decide where to go from there. Maybe it will spark a lifetime love for the idea, or a five minute discovery that is never touched again. But, at least they had an introduction and can store the information away for a rainy day.
Tracy
A homeschool rookie!
Leslie530@... wrote:
In a message dated 1/5/2007 12:49:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
alisonslp@... writes:
I am trying so hard to just view my kids' toys, games, activities as
just that, with no underlying expectations. But enevitably, the
thoughts enter my mind - this is great for their ____ {fill in the
blank}. For the holidays and recently at a consignment sale, I have
done a better job of asking "will they like this?" instead of "what
can they get from this?" But as they play with toys, my thoughts
revert back.
Is this something that you all think about as well?
***************
Hi Alison. My first thought when reading your post was about something I
read a long time ago about Maria Montessori. She noticed a child walking down
the street with his mother, she stopped to have a chat with someone. The
child picked up a piece of paper and explored it. Montessori watched the child,
noticing that he played with this paper and "came to know it". What are
your children coming to know about the things they are doing?
The truth is.....you will probably never know! Experiencing life is all in
the mind of the individual. Can you truly know what "green" is like to
another person? We all point to something and agree that it is green, but does
that other person see what you see?
So step back and observe your children, not to see what they are learning
but to watch how they explore the world around them. It is really cool.
Einstein (I have heard) said that 90% of the physics a person will know in a
lifetime is learned in the first three years of life. I have read that a study in
the sixties concluded that school learning only accounts for 5 % of a
person's total learning (long before the tech age). Where are we getting the other
95%???? Life. Experience. Just being. Totally cool!
I also like to think what life would look like if you got to take an
unlimited vacation and have the ability to do nothing or everything. All your needs
are completely taken care of, food and cleaning, money. You can do anything
you want, no worries. How would you spend your time? At first you would
probably indulge yourself, but then you might find yourself in rhythms of doing
and resting, wanting to be with others and being alone, "mindless" TV
watching to reading classic novels to NYTimes Crosswords. You might crave cleaning
up after yourself or cooking for yourself. You might lie on the grass and
stare at the clouds while your brain is in complete creative mode...composing
a symphony or thinking on how to solve the worlds problems. You might start
an organic garden or chop wood. Your brain and body would find the optimum
states and rhythms of each moment and preparing for tomorrow's whims or plans.
It is what we are programmed to do by nature, after taking care of our
basic needs for survival.
Keep reading and examining your thoughts. Figure out where you might be
getting in the way of your children's natural learning and life rhythms. Don't
worry when those old thoughts creep in, they will! Make a cup of tea and
watch your kids instead. Or get down on the floor and play a mindless game,
too. :)
Have fun!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
like a museum, filled to capacity with toys and trinkets and gadgets that will foster imagination, creativity, and learning. She's collected things over the years with all of this in mind. I think it is our job to introduce our children to new concepts (I don't mean through worksheets and textbooks) but by bringing these interesting objects into our homes, then letting the child examine them and decide where to go from there. Maybe it will spark a lifetime love for the idea, or a five minute discovery that is never touched again. But, at least they had an introduction and can store the information away for a rainy day.
Tracy
A homeschool rookie!
Leslie530@... wrote:
In a message dated 1/5/2007 12:49:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
alisonslp@... writes:
I am trying so hard to just view my kids' toys, games, activities as
just that, with no underlying expectations. But enevitably, the
thoughts enter my mind - this is great for their ____ {fill in the
blank}. For the holidays and recently at a consignment sale, I have
done a better job of asking "will they like this?" instead of "what
can they get from this?" But as they play with toys, my thoughts
revert back.
Is this something that you all think about as well?
***************
Hi Alison. My first thought when reading your post was about something I
read a long time ago about Maria Montessori. She noticed a child walking down
the street with his mother, she stopped to have a chat with someone. The
child picked up a piece of paper and explored it. Montessori watched the child,
noticing that he played with this paper and "came to know it". What are
your children coming to know about the things they are doing?
The truth is.....you will probably never know! Experiencing life is all in
the mind of the individual. Can you truly know what "green" is like to
another person? We all point to something and agree that it is green, but does
that other person see what you see?
So step back and observe your children, not to see what they are learning
but to watch how they explore the world around them. It is really cool.
Einstein (I have heard) said that 90% of the physics a person will know in a
lifetime is learned in the first three years of life. I have read that a study in
the sixties concluded that school learning only accounts for 5 % of a
person's total learning (long before the tech age). Where are we getting the other
95%???? Life. Experience. Just being. Totally cool!
I also like to think what life would look like if you got to take an
unlimited vacation and have the ability to do nothing or everything. All your needs
are completely taken care of, food and cleaning, money. You can do anything
you want, no worries. How would you spend your time? At first you would
probably indulge yourself, but then you might find yourself in rhythms of doing
and resting, wanting to be with others and being alone, "mindless" TV
watching to reading classic novels to NYTimes Crosswords. You might crave cleaning
up after yourself or cooking for yourself. You might lie on the grass and
stare at the clouds while your brain is in complete creative mode...composing
a symphony or thinking on how to solve the worlds problems. You might start
an organic garden or chop wood. Your brain and body would find the optimum
states and rhythms of each moment and preparing for tomorrow's whims or plans.
It is what we are programmed to do by nature, after taking care of our
basic needs for survival.
Keep reading and examining your thoughts. Figure out where you might be
getting in the way of your children's natural learning and life rhythms. Don't
worry when those old thoughts creep in, they will! Make a cup of tea and
watch your kids instead. Or get down on the floor and play a mindless game,
too. :)
Have fun!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
alisonslp
Thanks Julie and Leslie... your insight really helps. Leslie, you
ought to copy what you wrote an place it in your blog, if you have
one. The portion about what we as adult might do if we had no other
responsibilities really hits it home.
I have been doing more observing and I'm routinely amazed when I just
sit back and realize what it really going on - not on the surface, but
deeper down. I have started a blog to help me chronicle it all. Just
for myself for now...maybe it will help new US someday...
alison
ought to copy what you wrote an place it in your blog, if you have
one. The portion about what we as adult might do if we had no other
responsibilities really hits it home.
I have been doing more observing and I'm routinely amazed when I just
sit back and realize what it really going on - not on the surface, but
deeper down. I have started a blog to help me chronicle it all. Just
for myself for now...maybe it will help new US someday...
alison
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Tracy Willis
<tracywil0701@...> wrote:
it - the artwork, the cover even <g>! Since I mostly buy books at
thrift stores and library sales I can afford to do things like that.
Many times I have bought books with the thought that "maybe one
day" I or Mo will be interested in some part of that book - an idea
for rainy day fun, or a chance to decoupage the bathroom walls with
scraps of text (my secret fantasy). But I don't buy books with the
expectation that learning will come as a result of the purchase.
keep in mind with all this "strewing" is exactly what I mentioned
above - don't Expect kids will learn something just because you
offered them some neato thingummy.
Its great to have lots and lots of options and ideas on hand for
those times when everyone feels a little stale or stuck in a rut, or
just in need of some rainy-day fun. Its also great, if you have a
busy, explorative child, to have things stashed away for her
to "discover" - it makes home a magical, exciting place to be. It
can be really fun to leave something out on a table, or in the
bathroom, whatever, for family members to discover and either be
interested in or ignore - but be prepared to have them ignore it!
Since you brought up Montessori, I'll toss a bit back at ya - if you
offer a child a new "material" and the child is not interested, put
it away. She's not ready. That's true of strewing, too, although I
prefer to think of "ready" in a more wholistic sense than teachers
generally do. *I'm* still not ready to learn about a lot of things -
wiring and plumbing come to mind. George could leave Do-it-yourself
books all over the house and I still wouldn't be *ready* ;)
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
<tracywil0701@...> wrote:
>After all, every time you add a book to your home library, aren'tSometimes I buy a book because I like something in particular about
>you doing so with the idea in mind that your child will learn
>something from that book.
it - the artwork, the cover even <g>! Since I mostly buy books at
thrift stores and library sales I can afford to do things like that.
Many times I have bought books with the thought that "maybe one
day" I or Mo will be interested in some part of that book - an idea
for rainy day fun, or a chance to decoupage the bathroom walls with
scraps of text (my secret fantasy). But I don't buy books with the
expectation that learning will come as a result of the purchase.
>I was reading on a website this evening about a mom who says herSounds like Sandra's site. Its a great place to read. One thing to
>home is
> like a museum, filled to capacity with toys and trinkets and
>gadgets that will foster imagination, creativity, and learning.
keep in mind with all this "strewing" is exactly what I mentioned
above - don't Expect kids will learn something just because you
offered them some neato thingummy.
Its great to have lots and lots of options and ideas on hand for
those times when everyone feels a little stale or stuck in a rut, or
just in need of some rainy-day fun. Its also great, if you have a
busy, explorative child, to have things stashed away for her
to "discover" - it makes home a magical, exciting place to be. It
can be really fun to leave something out on a table, or in the
bathroom, whatever, for family members to discover and either be
interested in or ignore - but be prepared to have them ignore it!
Since you brought up Montessori, I'll toss a bit back at ya - if you
offer a child a new "material" and the child is not interested, put
it away. She's not ready. That's true of strewing, too, although I
prefer to think of "ready" in a more wholistic sense than teachers
generally do. *I'm* still not ready to learn about a lot of things -
wiring and plumbing come to mind. George could leave Do-it-yourself
books all over the house and I still wouldn't be *ready* ;)
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)