Patriot Ledger article
Rue Kream
Dagny and I (and Kathryn Baptista) were interviewed for a local paper. The
article came out today. There're the obligatory arguments from school
people, but overall it's a pretty positive article. ~Rue
http://www.patriotledger.com/articles/2006/12/09/news/news01.txt
article came out today. There're the obligatory arguments from school
people, but overall it's a pretty positive article. ~Rue
http://www.patriotledger.com/articles/2006/12/09/news/news01.txt
Vickisue Gray
I loved the article!!
I just have one question (not article related).
Does anyone (else) have problems with respect
or just plain being a nice kid from their unschooler?
We've been unschooling for quite awhile now, and
my nine year old son has grown wonderfully accept
in his rudeness. He has become very rude, to me,
my spouse, strangers....
My spouse, son and I just spent eight days in the mountains
of GA, cleaning up grandma's house. We let him do what he
wanted to keep busy, didn't make him help so he didn't. We
took time off to go skiing, hiking, and exploring, so it wasn't all
work and no fun.
We do expect a certain amount of decent behavior from him when
we must go into government buildings, the library, businesses, etc..
He slapped a stranger with his coat sleeves, trashed the family room
before we left, whined insistently whenever asked to do anything,
and was just plain nasty unless doing exactly what he wanted
all the time.
My spouse feels that even though learning works well with
unschooling, his behavior is asking for military style rules.
We are at a loss for how to continue to unschool.
My son just read this post as I type it, and even said that
it sounds like him. I want my nice son back.
Is it too much to ask that he behave?
Looking for your guidance,
Vicki
----- Original Message ----
From: Rue Kream <skreams@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2006 11:10:42 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Patriot Ledger article
Dagny and I (and Kathryn Baptista) were interviewed for a local paper. The
article came out today. There're the obligatory arguments from school
people, but overall it's a pretty positive article. ~Rue
http://www.patriotl edger.com/ articles/ 2006/12/09/ news/news01. txt
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I just have one question (not article related).
Does anyone (else) have problems with respect
or just plain being a nice kid from their unschooler?
We've been unschooling for quite awhile now, and
my nine year old son has grown wonderfully accept
in his rudeness. He has become very rude, to me,
my spouse, strangers....
My spouse, son and I just spent eight days in the mountains
of GA, cleaning up grandma's house. We let him do what he
wanted to keep busy, didn't make him help so he didn't. We
took time off to go skiing, hiking, and exploring, so it wasn't all
work and no fun.
We do expect a certain amount of decent behavior from him when
we must go into government buildings, the library, businesses, etc..
He slapped a stranger with his coat sleeves, trashed the family room
before we left, whined insistently whenever asked to do anything,
and was just plain nasty unless doing exactly what he wanted
all the time.
My spouse feels that even though learning works well with
unschooling, his behavior is asking for military style rules.
We are at a loss for how to continue to unschool.
My son just read this post as I type it, and even said that
it sounds like him. I want my nice son back.
Is it too much to ask that he behave?
Looking for your guidance,
Vicki
----- Original Message ----
From: Rue Kream <skreams@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2006 11:10:42 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Patriot Ledger article
Dagny and I (and Kathryn Baptista) were interviewed for a local paper. The
article came out today. There're the obligatory arguments from school
people, but overall it's a pretty positive article. ~Rue
http://www.patriotl edger.com/ articles/ 2006/12/09/ news/news01. txt
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/2006 4:04:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
vickisue_gray@... writes:
My spouse feels that even though learning works well with
unschooling, his behavior is asking for military style rules.
We are at a loss for how to continue to unschool.
My son just read this post as I type it, and even said that
it sounds like him. I want my nice son back.
Is it too much to ask that he behave?
Looking for your guidance,
Vicki
my advice would be:
1. explain how this behavior will work (or not work) for him later in life
with friends, dating, family, jobs, etc...
2. ask him what he would do if he were you and had this kind of problem with
his child. does he think that the Military Discipline is what would work?
How would he work with his child on these things?
3. this is REALLY REALLY HARD to do, I don't know if I could do it myself,
but when he is doing these things, do them right along with him and see if
your mirroring his behavior makes him embarrassed. I did this with my toddler
who was SCREAMING and flailing on the floor at Target years ago and I got down
on the floor and did exactly what she was doing, and it solved the problem
very quickly.
4. Lastly, I know this is going to SHOCK you because it shocked the heck out
of me when it happened at our house, but nine is basically a "pre-teen" and
he's starting all that rebellious bs! Can you believe it? So some of it just
has to be ignored and seen as a stage. The good news is that the earlier they
rebel, the sooner they mature and start acting very responsibly so that
probably means your son is super gifted.
Good luck. I've been there before and it does get better with a lot of love
and laughter. (and patience)
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vickisue_gray@... writes:
My spouse feels that even though learning works well with
unschooling, his behavior is asking for military style rules.
We are at a loss for how to continue to unschool.
My son just read this post as I type it, and even said that
it sounds like him. I want my nice son back.
Is it too much to ask that he behave?
Looking for your guidance,
Vicki
my advice would be:
1. explain how this behavior will work (or not work) for him later in life
with friends, dating, family, jobs, etc...
2. ask him what he would do if he were you and had this kind of problem with
his child. does he think that the Military Discipline is what would work?
How would he work with his child on these things?
3. this is REALLY REALLY HARD to do, I don't know if I could do it myself,
but when he is doing these things, do them right along with him and see if
your mirroring his behavior makes him embarrassed. I did this with my toddler
who was SCREAMING and flailing on the floor at Target years ago and I got down
on the floor and did exactly what she was doing, and it solved the problem
very quickly.
4. Lastly, I know this is going to SHOCK you because it shocked the heck out
of me when it happened at our house, but nine is basically a "pre-teen" and
he's starting all that rebellious bs! Can you believe it? So some of it just
has to be ignored and seen as a stage. The good news is that the earlier they
rebel, the sooner they mature and start acting very responsibly so that
probably means your son is super gifted.
Good luck. I've been there before and it does get better with a lot of love
and laughter. (and patience)
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Vickisue Gray
<vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
excited about going, in the first place? Were there things for him
to do "for fun" *while* y'all were cleaning up? Trashing the living
room sounds like an act of frustration to me.
How often does he get to choose *exactly what he wants* to do and
have y'all work to facilitate it? What kinds of things does he want
to be doing? It sounds like he doesn't feel as though his needs are
getting met. He may not be able to articulate it - maybe he just
feels cruddy - but that's what the behavior "sounds like" to me.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
<vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
> My spouse, son and I just spent eight days in the mountainsOne thing I wondered, reading this, was whether he wanted to go, was
> of GA, cleaning up grandma's house. We let him do what he
> wanted to keep busy, didn't make him help so he didn't. We
> took time off to go skiing, hiking, and exploring, so it wasn't all
> work and no fun.
excited about going, in the first place? Were there things for him
to do "for fun" *while* y'all were cleaning up? Trashing the living
room sounds like an act of frustration to me.
How often does he get to choose *exactly what he wants* to do and
have y'all work to facilitate it? What kinds of things does he want
to be doing? It sounds like he doesn't feel as though his needs are
getting met. He may not be able to articulate it - maybe he just
feels cruddy - but that's what the behavior "sounds like" to me.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
Ren Allen
"The good news is that the earlier they
rebel, the sooner they mature and start acting very responsibly so that
probably means your son is super gifted."
Well I have two teens that are "mature" and "act responsibly" and
never rebeled. I don't believe in teen rebellion. My kids have nothing
to rebel against so why would that be a natural stage?
And I totally disagree with getting down on the floor and acting like
the child when they're having a meltdown or other difficulty. That's
the last thing a person needs during a frustrating moment. My highly
sensitive 5y.o. would freak out if someone did that to him. Children
deserve a calm, centered and patient adult to help them during rough
moments.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
rebel, the sooner they mature and start acting very responsibly so that
probably means your son is super gifted."
Well I have two teens that are "mature" and "act responsibly" and
never rebeled. I don't believe in teen rebellion. My kids have nothing
to rebel against so why would that be a natural stage?
And I totally disagree with getting down on the floor and acting like
the child when they're having a meltdown or other difficulty. That's
the last thing a person needs during a frustrating moment. My highly
sensitive 5y.o. would freak out if someone did that to him. Children
deserve a calm, centered and patient adult to help them during rough
moments.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Vickisue Gray
~~ One thing I wondered, reading this, was whether he wanted to go, was
excited about going, in the first place? Were there things for him
to do "for fun" *while* y'all were cleaning up? Trashing the living
room sounds like an act of frustration to me.
How often does he get to choose *exactly what he wants* to do and
have y'all work to facilitate it? What kinds of things does he want
to be doing? It sounds like he doesn't feel as though his needs are
getting met. He may not be able to articulate it - maybe he just
feels cruddy - but that's what the behavior "sounds like" to me.~~
Yes, he was excited to be going (the only one!). There was no TV, VCR,
DVD, nor technology of any kind, (killed me!) But he is a voracious reader
and the place is a treasure trove of every role playing game ever created
(not kidding), every comic book (at least all first additions), tons and tons of books,
and tons of other treasures. He was NOT bored in the least! We had the issue
of pulling him from away from the DS lite, games or books for things that required
doing. We never interrupted him unless necessary.
We took hikes he wanted (another punishing feat for me, lol), he was in
charge of the fire making since he wanted to do it, he had lots of options.
As for articulation, not a problem there, he is VERY articulate. Nine in age,
but reads, talks and thinks above most adults. He has been showing 'tween'
signs for quite awhile. The part that bugged me about trashing the room, was
that he 'told' me what he did, knowing that it wasn't nice, with the 'hehehehee and
and you can't do anything about it as we are on the road home'
(I had already cleaned it up before we left.) But his attitude, is terrible.
My spouse feels that he is abusing the freedom he has. I have to say
that I'm feeling that way too.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
excited about going, in the first place? Were there things for him
to do "for fun" *while* y'all were cleaning up? Trashing the living
room sounds like an act of frustration to me.
How often does he get to choose *exactly what he wants* to do and
have y'all work to facilitate it? What kinds of things does he want
to be doing? It sounds like he doesn't feel as though his needs are
getting met. He may not be able to articulate it - maybe he just
feels cruddy - but that's what the behavior "sounds like" to me.~~
Yes, he was excited to be going (the only one!). There was no TV, VCR,
DVD, nor technology of any kind, (killed me!) But he is a voracious reader
and the place is a treasure trove of every role playing game ever created
(not kidding), every comic book (at least all first additions), tons and tons of books,
and tons of other treasures. He was NOT bored in the least! We had the issue
of pulling him from away from the DS lite, games or books for things that required
doing. We never interrupted him unless necessary.
We took hikes he wanted (another punishing feat for me, lol), he was in
charge of the fire making since he wanted to do it, he had lots of options.
As for articulation, not a problem there, he is VERY articulate. Nine in age,
but reads, talks and thinks above most adults. He has been showing 'tween'
signs for quite awhile. The part that bugged me about trashing the room, was
that he 'told' me what he did, knowing that it wasn't nice, with the 'hehehehee and
and you can't do anything about it as we are on the road home'
(I had already cleaned it up before we left.) But his attitude, is terrible.
My spouse feels that he is abusing the freedom he has. I have to say
that I'm feeling that way too.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vickisue Gray
Ren,
I have to agree with you on this one.
My 16yo, never acted like this at all.
I asked her and she agrees that she nor he (the 9yo)
have anything to rebel against.
I did have moments on the trip, wishing she had come.
Neither my spouse nor I mentioned it around our son,
but what differant kids! The oldest one at a much younger
age was such a helpful and mature child.
We left her by her choice, (she;s almost 17) home to run
our farm (feed animals and gm). A back part of the woods
caught on fire, and she called the fire dept, handled getting
them where they needed to go, notifing us... She never troubled our
adult backups that were to help in such a situation.
My spouse and I are wondering where we went wrong with the youngest.
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
"The good news is that the earlier they
rebel, the sooner they mature and start acting very responsibly so that
probably means your son is super gifted."
Well I have two teens that are "mature" and "act responsibly" and
never rebeled. I don't believe in teen rebellion. My kids have nothing
to rebel against so why would that be a natural stage?
And I totally disagree with getting down on the floor and acting like
the child when they're having a meltdown or other difficulty. That's
the last thing a person needs during a frustrating moment. My highly
sensitive 5y.o. would freak out if someone did that to him. Children
deserve a calm, centered and patient adult to help them during rough
moments.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have to agree with you on this one.
My 16yo, never acted like this at all.
I asked her and she agrees that she nor he (the 9yo)
have anything to rebel against.
I did have moments on the trip, wishing she had come.
Neither my spouse nor I mentioned it around our son,
but what differant kids! The oldest one at a much younger
age was such a helpful and mature child.
We left her by her choice, (she;s almost 17) home to run
our farm (feed animals and gm). A back part of the woods
caught on fire, and she called the fire dept, handled getting
them where they needed to go, notifing us... She never troubled our
adult backups that were to help in such a situation.
My spouse and I are wondering where we went wrong with the youngest.
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
"The good news is that the earlier they
rebel, the sooner they mature and start acting very responsibly so that
probably means your son is super gifted."
Well I have two teens that are "mature" and "act responsibly" and
never rebeled. I don't believe in teen rebellion. My kids have nothing
to rebel against so why would that be a natural stage?
And I totally disagree with getting down on the floor and acting like
the child when they're having a meltdown or other difficulty. That's
the last thing a person needs during a frustrating moment. My highly
sensitive 5y.o. would freak out if someone did that to him. Children
deserve a calm, centered and patient adult to help them during rough
moments.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
josha.grant
Hi Vicki,
I am new to the group. I have a 9 year old boy as well. You might
find some interesting info in Waldorf books, specifically something
that "they" refered to as the nine year change. This year can be a
big challenge for some. It has been a while since I have read any
Waldorf stuff but I have had a few jaw dropping moments with my son
recently and I was able to step back say --oh yeah he is nine--.
GOod luck!!
Josha
--- In [email protected], Vickisue Gray
<vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
I am new to the group. I have a 9 year old boy as well. You might
find some interesting info in Waldorf books, specifically something
that "they" refered to as the nine year change. This year can be a
big challenge for some. It has been a while since I have read any
Waldorf stuff but I have had a few jaw dropping moments with my son
recently and I was able to step back say --oh yeah he is nine--.
GOod luck!!
Josha
--- In [email protected], Vickisue Gray
<vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
>room
> I loved the article!!
>
> I just have one question (not article related).
> Does anyone (else) have problems with respect
> or just plain being a nice kid from their unschooler?
>
> We've been unschooling for quite awhile now, and
> my nine year old son has grown wonderfully accept
> in his rudeness. He has become very rude, to me,
> my spouse, strangers....
>
> My spouse, son and I just spent eight days in the mountains
> of GA, cleaning up grandma's house. We let him do what he
> wanted to keep busy, didn't make him help so he didn't. We
> took time off to go skiing, hiking, and exploring, so it wasn't all
> work and no fun.
>
> We do expect a certain amount of decent behavior from him when
> we must go into government buildings, the library, businesses, etc..
> He slapped a stranger with his coat sleeves, trashed the family
> before we left, whined insistently whenever asked to do anything,paper. The
> and was just plain nasty unless doing exactly what he wanted
> all the time.
>
> My spouse feels that even though learning works well with
> unschooling, his behavior is asking for military style rules.
> We are at a loss for how to continue to unschool.
> My son just read this post as I type it, and even said that
> it sounds like him. I want my nice son back.
>
> Is it too much to ask that he behave?
>
> Looking for your guidance,
> Vicki
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Rue Kream <skreams@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2006 11:10:42 AM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Patriot Ledger article
>
> Dagny and I (and Kathryn Baptista) were interviewed for a local
> article came out today. There're the obligatory arguments fromschool
> people, but overall it's a pretty positive article. ~Ruetxt
>
> http://www.patriotl edger.com/ articles/ 2006/12/09/ news/news01.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
janne hunter
What if the sensitive and gifted 9 year old is really
telling you, do you love me when I am like this? And
what if he feels like the answer is no? What if he
laughs at you only for the self-protection? He may
feel that his feelings isn't valuated when they are
complicated, because you are falling into your own
diffidult feelings.
If your spouse is thinking about "military disipline";
and even if this isn't mentioned around this
wonderful 9 year of yours, are you sure that the 9
year old isn't sensing this and picking it up?
Please look behind the outward behaving.
His sister isn't inside her brother and can't judge
what he has to rebel against. He may not even know
himself. But something IS bothering him, even though
he can't express it.
Please trust him, he may be in pain, but not trusting
you enough to handle it.
It is not easy for me as a grown up to express how I
feel about things that are bothering me. The only way
I can express myself is when I am totally trusted.
You just may suceed in trusting him. Try again.
--- Vickisue Gray <vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
telling you, do you love me when I am like this? And
what if he feels like the answer is no? What if he
laughs at you only for the self-protection? He may
feel that his feelings isn't valuated when they are
complicated, because you are falling into your own
diffidult feelings.
If your spouse is thinking about "military disipline";
and even if this isn't mentioned around this
wonderful 9 year of yours, are you sure that the 9
year old isn't sensing this and picking it up?
Please look behind the outward behaving.
His sister isn't inside her brother and can't judge
what he has to rebel against. He may not even know
himself. But something IS bothering him, even though
he can't express it.
Please trust him, he may be in pain, but not trusting
you enough to handle it.
It is not easy for me as a grown up to express how I
feel about things that are bothering me. The only way
I can express myself is when I am totally trusted.
You just may suceed in trusting him. Try again.
--- Vickisue Gray <vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
> Ren,Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> I have to agree with you on this one.
> My 16yo, never acted like this at all.
> I asked her and she agrees that she nor he (the
> 9yo)
> have anything to rebel against.
>
> I did have moments on the trip, wishing she had
> come.
> Neither my spouse nor I mentioned it around our
> son,
> but what differant kids! The oldest one at a much
> younger
> age was such a helpful and mature child.
>
> We left her by her choice, (she;s almost 17) home
> to run
> our farm (feed animals and gm). A back part of
> the woods
> caught on fire, and she called the fire dept,
> handled getting
> them where they needed to go, notifing us... She
> never troubled our
> adult backups that were to help in such a
> situation.
>
> My spouse and I are wondering where we went wrong
> with the youngest.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> "The good news is that the earlier they
> rebel, the sooner they mature and start acting very
> responsibly so that
> probably means your son is super gifted."
>
> Well I have two teens that are "mature" and "act
> responsibly" and
> never rebeled. I don't believe in teen rebellion. My
> kids have nothing
> to rebel against so why would that be a natural
> stage?
>
> And I totally disagree with getting down on the
> floor and acting like
> the child when they're having a meltdown or other
> difficulty. That's
> the last thing a person needs during a frustrating
> moment. My highly
> sensitive 5y.o. would freak out if someone did that
> to him. Children
> deserve a calm, centered and patient adult to help
> them during rough
> moments.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low
> PC-to-Phone call rates.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
Dr Elizabeth Klein
Rue,
Great article. I love getting the unschooling word out to people. Good
for you!
My husband and I are starting an unschool in Iowa much like North Star
in MA. It is always a little difficult to explain to people the
concept, but the reality is awsome.
Bette
Great article. I love getting the unschooling word out to people. Good
for you!
My husband and I are starting an unschool in Iowa much like North Star
in MA. It is always a little difficult to explain to people the
concept, but the reality is awsome.
Bette
Michelle Leifur Reid
On 12/9/06, Vickisue Gray <vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
same manner in which you expect him to respect you? By that I mean,
do you boss him around, make him do things that he doesn't want to,
make comments about "wasting time" or doing things that aren't
productive? Do you make him go places without regard to his wants and
needs at the moment?
You said:
required by you and necessary in your view only? Or were they safety
related (like getting out of a burning building)?
I've not dealt with the rebelling issue. I have a feeling, though,
that my mother is going to deal with that this week. Dan and I are
flying up to Portland, OR on Thursday and the kids are all staying
with my mom. She has lots of rules: places and times for eating,
times for going to bed, limited electronic use (tv, computer, cell
phone), going to church (why she is insisting on taking 3 agnostic or
Pagan children to a Christian church is beyond me!). I'm sure when
we get back that my mom is going to have a long list of "rebel issues"
that I never see. We've assured the kids that we are just a cell
phone call away and we will intervene on their behalf. We've raised
our children with respect and we get that respect back. Not because
we "deserve" or "expect" it but because we show it.
Michelle
> We do expect a certain amount of decent behavior from him whenWhat have you done to earn his respect? Do you respect him in the
> we must go into government buildings, the library, businesses, etc..
> He slapped a stranger with his coat sleeves, trashed the family room
> before we left, whined insistently whenever asked to do anything,
> and was just plain nasty unless doing exactly what he wanted
> all the time.
>
same manner in which you expect him to respect you? By that I mean,
do you boss him around, make him do things that he doesn't want to,
make comments about "wasting time" or doing things that aren't
productive? Do you make him go places without regard to his wants and
needs at the moment?
You said:
> We had the issuethat required
>of pulling him from away from the DS lite, games or books for things
>doing. We never interrupted him unless necessary.What "required doing?" What did you deem as "necessary?" Were they
required by you and necessary in your view only? Or were they safety
related (like getting out of a burning building)?
I've not dealt with the rebelling issue. I have a feeling, though,
that my mother is going to deal with that this week. Dan and I are
flying up to Portland, OR on Thursday and the kids are all staying
with my mom. She has lots of rules: places and times for eating,
times for going to bed, limited electronic use (tv, computer, cell
phone), going to church (why she is insisting on taking 3 agnostic or
Pagan children to a Christian church is beyond me!). I'm sure when
we get back that my mom is going to have a long list of "rebel issues"
that I never see. We've assured the kids that we are just a cell
phone call away and we will intervene on their behalf. We've raised
our children with respect and we get that respect back. Not because
we "deserve" or "expect" it but because we show it.
Michelle
Sylvia Toyama
I've not dealt with the rebelling issue. I have a feeling, though,that my mother is going to deal with that this week. Dan and I are flying up to Portland, OR on Thursday and the kids are all staying with my mom. She has lots of rules: places and times for eating,times for going to bed, limited electronic use (tv, computer, cell phone), going to church (why she is insisting on taking 3 agnostic or Pagan children to a Christian church is beyond me!). I'm sure when we get back that my mom is going to have a long list of "rebel issues" that I never see. We've assured the kids that we are just a cellphone call away and we will intervene on their behalf. We've raised our children with respect and we get that respect back. Not because we "deserve" or "expect" it but because we show it.
Michelle
*****
I have to ask Michelle, why are you inviting such unrest into your life --- and your children's lives? Is there not someone better suited to taking care of your kids for a week? Not some way to take them along, or skip the trip? A week with that Grandma would be hellish for my unschooling kids. Andy did three solo visits with the grandparents, who are much like you describe your Mom -- he doesn't rebel, but goes with the flow out of respect that he is a guest in their home (I expect no less from our boys), but has decided the stress is just too much for him and he won't be visiting alone anymore. Dan never has had any willingness to be alone with them in their home.
I think it's unreasonable for you to have your Mom keep your kids and encourage them to flout her rules, no matter how unreasonable you think the rules are. It is her home, and by having your kids there, she's doing you a favor. The least you can all do is make the visit as pleasant as possible for everyone. I think you're setting everyone for unnecessary hurt feelings.
*****
We've raised our children with respect and we get that respect back. Not because we "deserve" or "expect" it but because we show it.
****
Yet you're telling them they don't have to show Grandma any respect, that it's okay to disrespect her because you don't agree with her. What you'll be showing them is that you don't have any respect for Grandma either. Why put everyone thru this?
Sylvia
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle
*****
I have to ask Michelle, why are you inviting such unrest into your life --- and your children's lives? Is there not someone better suited to taking care of your kids for a week? Not some way to take them along, or skip the trip? A week with that Grandma would be hellish for my unschooling kids. Andy did three solo visits with the grandparents, who are much like you describe your Mom -- he doesn't rebel, but goes with the flow out of respect that he is a guest in their home (I expect no less from our boys), but has decided the stress is just too much for him and he won't be visiting alone anymore. Dan never has had any willingness to be alone with them in their home.
I think it's unreasonable for you to have your Mom keep your kids and encourage them to flout her rules, no matter how unreasonable you think the rules are. It is her home, and by having your kids there, she's doing you a favor. The least you can all do is make the visit as pleasant as possible for everyone. I think you're setting everyone for unnecessary hurt feelings.
*****
We've raised our children with respect and we get that respect back. Not because we "deserve" or "expect" it but because we show it.
****
Yet you're telling them they don't have to show Grandma any respect, that it's okay to disrespect her because you don't agree with her. What you'll be showing them is that you don't have any respect for Grandma either. Why put everyone thru this?
Sylvia
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/2006 5:16:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
Well I have two teens that are "mature" and "act responsibly" and
never rebeled. I don't believe in teen rebellion. My kids have nothing
to rebel against so why would that be a natural stage?
I think it is natural for some, maybe not for others, but one certainly does
hear about it, especially during times when children are trying to make a
statement about who they are/aren't. My son at age 10 decided to rebel against
things that are part of ME - like the kind of job I support my family with (I
work as the music director at a Catholic Church and sing at Jazz gigs at
night) It bothered him all of the sudden that people might think he could follow
in my footsteps (since he is really musical) So, he decided to act out and
speak in a way that would ensure that I (and others) NEVER in a million years
would think he will 'choose to be like me when he grows up.' He tried to do
everything that is as "uncatholic" as can be and also tried to distance
himself from music in every way he could, including saying that he hated all
instruments, didn't want to sing, blah blah. It lasted about 6 or 7 months and
though he still talks the talk, he now isn't walking the walk and sits at the
piano and plays, gets out his trumpet, prays at night, sings all the time while
he is walking around the house, and talks about being thankful to God. I
have to be very careful/respectful and never say "that was a nice song you were
humming" or "it was sweet that you asked God to make your brother feel
better." If I wasn't aware of his rebellion, I couldn't be sensitive enough to
pretend I don't notice these wonderful things in him.
And I totally disagree with getting down on the floor and acting like
the child when they're having a meltdown or other difficulty. That's
the last thing a person needs during a frustrating moment.
I saw the lesson as life-saving. My daughter was trying to see what she
could do to get me to change my mind and be ok with her hiding inside the middle
of clothing racks where she could get lost and abducted. I kept pulling her
out, she kept going in. It wasn't a game I was ok with because I know of
someone who lost (permanently) their child this way at Sears in CA. Not taking her
to the store was not an option. I was on my own. Our mirrored antics and
tantrums helped her to laugh at the situation. At 2 she had that great of a
sense of humor and could see the silliness involved. Since she's my child, I
know what works with her and understand how sophisticated she has always been
when it comes to being able to laugh at herself and whatever situation is going
on. We use humor and self reflection a lot as methods of learning and
refining ourselves.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
Well I have two teens that are "mature" and "act responsibly" and
never rebeled. I don't believe in teen rebellion. My kids have nothing
to rebel against so why would that be a natural stage?
I think it is natural for some, maybe not for others, but one certainly does
hear about it, especially during times when children are trying to make a
statement about who they are/aren't. My son at age 10 decided to rebel against
things that are part of ME - like the kind of job I support my family with (I
work as the music director at a Catholic Church and sing at Jazz gigs at
night) It bothered him all of the sudden that people might think he could follow
in my footsteps (since he is really musical) So, he decided to act out and
speak in a way that would ensure that I (and others) NEVER in a million years
would think he will 'choose to be like me when he grows up.' He tried to do
everything that is as "uncatholic" as can be and also tried to distance
himself from music in every way he could, including saying that he hated all
instruments, didn't want to sing, blah blah. It lasted about 6 or 7 months and
though he still talks the talk, he now isn't walking the walk and sits at the
piano and plays, gets out his trumpet, prays at night, sings all the time while
he is walking around the house, and talks about being thankful to God. I
have to be very careful/respectful and never say "that was a nice song you were
humming" or "it was sweet that you asked God to make your brother feel
better." If I wasn't aware of his rebellion, I couldn't be sensitive enough to
pretend I don't notice these wonderful things in him.
And I totally disagree with getting down on the floor and acting like
the child when they're having a meltdown or other difficulty. That's
the last thing a person needs during a frustrating moment.
I saw the lesson as life-saving. My daughter was trying to see what she
could do to get me to change my mind and be ok with her hiding inside the middle
of clothing racks where she could get lost and abducted. I kept pulling her
out, she kept going in. It wasn't a game I was ok with because I know of
someone who lost (permanently) their child this way at Sears in CA. Not taking her
to the store was not an option. I was on my own. Our mirrored antics and
tantrums helped her to laugh at the situation. At 2 she had that great of a
sense of humor and could see the silliness involved. Since she's my child, I
know what works with her and understand how sophisticated she has always been
when it comes to being able to laugh at herself and whatever situation is going
on. We use humor and self reflection a lot as methods of learning and
refining ourselves.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vickisue Gray
Thanks.
I'll do that.
Vicki
janne hunter <thetrueself@...> wrote:
What if the sensitive and gifted 9 year old is really
telling you, do you love me when I am like this? And
what if he feels like the answer is no? What if he
laughs at you only for the self-protection? He may
feel that his feelings isn't valuated when they are
complicated, because you are falling into your own
diffidult feelings.
If your spouse is thinking about "military disipline";
and even if this isn't mentioned around this
wonderful 9 year of yours, are you sure that the 9
year old isn't sensing this and picking it up?
Please look behind the outward behaving.
His sister isn't inside her brother and can't judge
what he has to rebel against. He may not even know
himself. But something IS bothering him, even though
he can't express it.
Please trust him, he may be in pain, but not trusting
you enough to handle it.
It is not easy for me as a grown up to express how I
feel about things that are bothering me. The only way
I can express myself is when I am totally trusted.
You just may suceed in trusting him. Try again.
--- Vickisue Gray <vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'll do that.
Vicki
janne hunter <thetrueself@...> wrote:
What if the sensitive and gifted 9 year old is really
telling you, do you love me when I am like this? And
what if he feels like the answer is no? What if he
laughs at you only for the self-protection? He may
feel that his feelings isn't valuated when they are
complicated, because you are falling into your own
diffidult feelings.
If your spouse is thinking about "military disipline";
and even if this isn't mentioned around this
wonderful 9 year of yours, are you sure that the 9
year old isn't sensing this and picking it up?
Please look behind the outward behaving.
His sister isn't inside her brother and can't judge
what he has to rebel against. He may not even know
himself. But something IS bothering him, even though
he can't express it.
Please trust him, he may be in pain, but not trusting
you enough to handle it.
It is not easy for me as a grown up to express how I
feel about things that are bothering me. The only way
I can express myself is when I am totally trusted.
You just may suceed in trusting him. Try again.
--- Vickisue Gray <vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
> Ren,Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> I have to agree with you on this one.
> My 16yo, never acted like this at all.
> I asked her and she agrees that she nor he (the
> 9yo)
> have anything to rebel against.
>
> I did have moments on the trip, wishing she had
> come.
> Neither my spouse nor I mentioned it around our
> son,
> but what differant kids! The oldest one at a much
> younger
> age was such a helpful and mature child.
>
> We left her by her choice, (she;s almost 17) home
> to run
> our farm (feed animals and gm). A back part of
> the woods
> caught on fire, and she called the fire dept,
> handled getting
> them where they needed to go, notifing us... She
> never troubled our
> adult backups that were to help in such a
> situation.
>
> My spouse and I are wondering where we went wrong
> with the youngest.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> "The good news is that the earlier they
> rebel, the sooner they mature and start acting very
> responsibly so that
> probably means your son is super gifted."
>
> Well I have two teens that are "mature" and "act
> responsibly" and
> never rebeled. I don't believe in teen rebellion. My
> kids have nothing
> to rebel against so why would that be a natural
> stage?
>
> And I totally disagree with getting down on the
> floor and acting like
> the child when they're having a meltdown or other
> difficulty. That's
> the last thing a person needs during a frustrating
> moment. My highly
> sensitive 5y.o. would freak out if someone did that
> to him. Children
> deserve a calm, centered and patient adult to help
> them during rough
> moments.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low
> PC-to-Phone call rates.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vickisue Gray
I heard about that book.
Guess I better get reading!
Thanks for the suggestion.
Vicki
"josha.grant" <grantswelding@...> wrote:
Hi Vicki,
I am new to the group. I have a 9 year old boy as well. You might
find some interesting info in Waldorf books, specifically something
that "they" refered to as the nine year change. This year can be a
big challenge for some. It has been a while since I have read any
Waldorf stuff but I have had a few jaw dropping moments with my son
recently and I was able to step back say --oh yeah he is nine--.
GOod luck!!
Josha
--- In [email protected], Vickisue Gray
<vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Guess I better get reading!
Thanks for the suggestion.
Vicki
"josha.grant" <grantswelding@...> wrote:
Hi Vicki,
I am new to the group. I have a 9 year old boy as well. You might
find some interesting info in Waldorf books, specifically something
that "they" refered to as the nine year change. This year can be a
big challenge for some. It has been a while since I have read any
Waldorf stuff but I have had a few jaw dropping moments with my son
recently and I was able to step back say --oh yeah he is nine--.
GOod luck!!
Josha
--- In [email protected], Vickisue Gray
<vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
>room
> I loved the article!!
>
> I just have one question (not article related).
> Does anyone (else) have problems with respect
> or just plain being a nice kid from their unschooler?
>
> We've been unschooling for quite awhile now, and
> my nine year old son has grown wonderfully accept
> in his rudeness. He has become very rude, to me,
> my spouse, strangers....
>
> My spouse, son and I just spent eight days in the mountains
> of GA, cleaning up grandma's house. We let him do what he
> wanted to keep busy, didn't make him help so he didn't. We
> took time off to go skiing, hiking, and exploring, so it wasn't all
> work and no fun.
>
> We do expect a certain amount of decent behavior from him when
> we must go into government buildings, the library, businesses, etc..
> He slapped a stranger with his coat sleeves, trashed the family
> before we left, whined insistently whenever asked to do anything,paper. The
> and was just plain nasty unless doing exactly what he wanted
> all the time.
>
> My spouse feels that even though learning works well with
> unschooling, his behavior is asking for military style rules.
> We are at a loss for how to continue to unschool.
> My son just read this post as I type it, and even said that
> it sounds like him. I want my nice son back.
>
> Is it too much to ask that he behave?
>
> Looking for your guidance,
> Vicki
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Rue Kream <skreams@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2006 11:10:42 AM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Patriot Ledger article
>
> Dagny and I (and Kathryn Baptista) were interviewed for a local
> article came out today. There're the obligatory arguments fromschool
> people, but overall it's a pretty positive article. ~Ruetxt
>
> http://www.patriotl edger.com/ articles/ 2006/12/09/ news/news01.
>---------------------------------
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly
Our mirrored antics and
tantrums helped her to laugh at the situation.
I've had the same experience with my (now) 3 year old daughter. Mirroring
her helped her to see the effect of her actions and she re-gained her
"composure." We now even have a name for it - "melting," as in melt-down -
and sometimes we all just "melt" for the dramatic and playful fun of it.
I do think it depends on the nature of the child, though. Lila will
generally choose fun and laughter, given the chance, no matter how she feels
in any given moment. Sometimes we just have to help her see where that
opening is. I have no idea if my newborn will feel the same way when the
time comes; I wouldn't assume it. But isn't this the beauty of aware
parenting? And isn't this, the chance to really see our children, one of the
great things about unschooling? To have the freedom to do for one what works
for one, and do for another what works for them?
Feeling extremely grateful,
Kelly
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of singdoula@...
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 2:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Patriot Ledger article
In a message dated 12/9/2006 5:16:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@ <mailto:starsuncloud%40comcast.net> comcast.net writes:
Well I have two teens that are "mature" and "act responsibly" and
never rebeled. I don't believe in teen rebellion. My kids have nothing
to rebel against so why would that be a natural stage?
I think it is natural for some, maybe not for others, but one certainly does
hear about it, especially during times when children are trying to make a
statement about who they are/aren't. My son at age 10 decided to rebel
against
things that are part of ME - like the kind of job I support my family with
(I
work as the music director at a Catholic Church and sing at Jazz gigs at
night) It bothered him all of the sudden that people might think he could
follow
in my footsteps (since he is really musical) So, he decided to act out and
speak in a way that would ensure that I (and others) NEVER in a million
years
would think he will 'choose to be like me when he grows up.' He tried to do
everything that is as "uncatholic" as can be and also tried to distance
himself from music in every way he could, including saying that he hated all
instruments, didn't want to sing, blah blah. It lasted about 6 or 7 months
and
though he still talks the talk, he now isn't walking the walk and sits at
the
piano and plays, gets out his trumpet, prays at night, sings all the time
while
he is walking around the house, and talks about being thankful to God. I
have to be very careful/respectful and never say "that was a nice song you
were
humming" or "it was sweet that you asked God to make your brother feel
better." If I wasn't aware of his rebellion, I couldn't be sensitive enough
to
pretend I don't notice these wonderful things in him.
And I totally disagree with getting down on the floor and acting like
the child when they're having a meltdown or other difficulty. That's
the last thing a person needs during a frustrating moment.
I saw the lesson as life-saving. My daughter was trying to see what she
could do to get me to change my mind and be ok with her hiding inside the
middle
of clothing racks where she could get lost and abducted. I kept pulling her
out, she kept going in. It wasn't a game I was ok with because I know of
someone who lost (permanently) their child this way at Sears in CA. Not
taking her
to the store was not an option. I was on my own. Our mirrored antics and
tantrums helped her to laugh at the situation. At 2 she had that great of a
sense of humor and could see the silliness involved. Since she's my child, I
know what works with her and understand how sophisticated she has always
been
when it comes to being able to laugh at herself and whatever situation is
going
on. We use humor and self reflection a lot as methods of learning and
refining ourselves.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tantrums helped her to laugh at the situation.
I've had the same experience with my (now) 3 year old daughter. Mirroring
her helped her to see the effect of her actions and she re-gained her
"composure." We now even have a name for it - "melting," as in melt-down -
and sometimes we all just "melt" for the dramatic and playful fun of it.
I do think it depends on the nature of the child, though. Lila will
generally choose fun and laughter, given the chance, no matter how she feels
in any given moment. Sometimes we just have to help her see where that
opening is. I have no idea if my newborn will feel the same way when the
time comes; I wouldn't assume it. But isn't this the beauty of aware
parenting? And isn't this, the chance to really see our children, one of the
great things about unschooling? To have the freedom to do for one what works
for one, and do for another what works for them?
Feeling extremely grateful,
Kelly
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of singdoula@...
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 2:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Patriot Ledger article
In a message dated 12/9/2006 5:16:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@ <mailto:starsuncloud%40comcast.net> comcast.net writes:
Well I have two teens that are "mature" and "act responsibly" and
never rebeled. I don't believe in teen rebellion. My kids have nothing
to rebel against so why would that be a natural stage?
I think it is natural for some, maybe not for others, but one certainly does
hear about it, especially during times when children are trying to make a
statement about who they are/aren't. My son at age 10 decided to rebel
against
things that are part of ME - like the kind of job I support my family with
(I
work as the music director at a Catholic Church and sing at Jazz gigs at
night) It bothered him all of the sudden that people might think he could
follow
in my footsteps (since he is really musical) So, he decided to act out and
speak in a way that would ensure that I (and others) NEVER in a million
years
would think he will 'choose to be like me when he grows up.' He tried to do
everything that is as "uncatholic" as can be and also tried to distance
himself from music in every way he could, including saying that he hated all
instruments, didn't want to sing, blah blah. It lasted about 6 or 7 months
and
though he still talks the talk, he now isn't walking the walk and sits at
the
piano and plays, gets out his trumpet, prays at night, sings all the time
while
he is walking around the house, and talks about being thankful to God. I
have to be very careful/respectful and never say "that was a nice song you
were
humming" or "it was sweet that you asked God to make your brother feel
better." If I wasn't aware of his rebellion, I couldn't be sensitive enough
to
pretend I don't notice these wonderful things in him.
And I totally disagree with getting down on the floor and acting like
the child when they're having a meltdown or other difficulty. That's
the last thing a person needs during a frustrating moment.
I saw the lesson as life-saving. My daughter was trying to see what she
could do to get me to change my mind and be ok with her hiding inside the
middle
of clothing racks where she could get lost and abducted. I kept pulling her
out, she kept going in. It wasn't a game I was ok with because I know of
someone who lost (permanently) their child this way at Sears in CA. Not
taking her
to the store was not an option. I was on my own. Our mirrored antics and
tantrums helped her to laugh at the situation. At 2 she had that great of a
sense of humor and could see the silliness involved. Since she's my child, I
know what works with her and understand how sophisticated she has always
been
when it comes to being able to laugh at herself and whatever situation is
going
on. We use humor and self reflection a lot as methods of learning and
refining ourselves.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Vickisue Gray
<vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
if you haven't said anything directly, he may be looking at her and
thinking "OMG, I'll *never* be like *that*!"
When my stepson feels like he can't live up to expectations - even
his own - he tends to jump right to the opposite extreme. If he
can't be "great" he'll be "horrible" whether its a social situation
or learning a new skill. It seems to be a self-esteem thing. Perhaps
your son is feeling fragile and uncertain, right now.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
<vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
>> We left her by her choice, (she;s almost 17) home to runour
> our farm (feed animals and gm). A back part of the woods
> caught on fire, and she called the fire dept, handled getting
> them where they needed to go, notifing us... She never troubled
> adult backups that were to help in such a situation.youngest.
>
> My spouse and I are wondering where we went wrong with the
>I wonder if he feels some pressure to "live up to her example"? Even
if you haven't said anything directly, he may be looking at her and
thinking "OMG, I'll *never* be like *that*!"
When my stepson feels like he can't live up to expectations - even
his own - he tends to jump right to the opposite extreme. If he
can't be "great" he'll be "horrible" whether its a social situation
or learning a new skill. It seems to be a self-esteem thing. Perhaps
your son is feeling fragile and uncertain, right now.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: singdoula@...
3. this is REALLY REALLY HARD to do, I don't know if I could do it
myself,
but when he is doing these things, do them right along with him and
see if
your mirroring his behavior makes him embarrassed.
-=-=-=-
I wouldn't seek to embarrass him. That happens too often naturall! <g>
Just talk wih him. He's not trying to be difficult. He's trying to
communicate.
-=-=-=-=-
4. Lastly, I know this is going to SHOCK you because it shocked the
heck out
of me when it happened at our house, but nine is basically a
"pre-teen" and
he's starting all that rebellious bs! Can you believe it? So some of
it just
has to be ignored and seen as a stage. The good news is that the
earlier they
rebel, the sooner they mature and start acting very responsibly so
that
probably means your son is super gifted.
-=-=-=-
Although it may indeed be a stage, it's not to be ignored. He's asking
for help.
Assume he's doing his best. His best at behavior, at communicating, at
being himself. We ALL want to be understood and appreciated.
Years ago before unschooling, Cameron (9 or 10 at the time, I guess)
asked why all teenagers were rebellious. I said that was just the way
it was, and that all teens hate their parents. <g> He said, "I could
*never* hate YOU!" I said, "Can I get that in writing?"
So he wrote a note that I still have displayed: "I will never ever
never never ever ever never ever hate you! Cameron"
He's never been the slightest bit rebellious. I credit unschooling and
mindful parenting with that. Had he stayed in school and had we
continued with the traditional parenting, chances are that we probably
would have had issues.
"Super gifted" is not a very good way to look at any behavior---unless
you're just trying to get the parent to be OK with what's happening
*now* in lieu of a better "future"---Let's look at him as struggling
through a difficult situation and in need of guidance and help and
understanding instead!
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
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From: singdoula@...
3. this is REALLY REALLY HARD to do, I don't know if I could do it
myself,
but when he is doing these things, do them right along with him and
see if
your mirroring his behavior makes him embarrassed.
-=-=-=-
I wouldn't seek to embarrass him. That happens too often naturall! <g>
Just talk wih him. He's not trying to be difficult. He's trying to
communicate.
-=-=-=-=-
4. Lastly, I know this is going to SHOCK you because it shocked the
heck out
of me when it happened at our house, but nine is basically a
"pre-teen" and
he's starting all that rebellious bs! Can you believe it? So some of
it just
has to be ignored and seen as a stage. The good news is that the
earlier they
rebel, the sooner they mature and start acting very responsibly so
that
probably means your son is super gifted.
-=-=-=-
Although it may indeed be a stage, it's not to be ignored. He's asking
for help.
Assume he's doing his best. His best at behavior, at communicating, at
being himself. We ALL want to be understood and appreciated.
Years ago before unschooling, Cameron (9 or 10 at the time, I guess)
asked why all teenagers were rebellious. I said that was just the way
it was, and that all teens hate their parents. <g> He said, "I could
*never* hate YOU!" I said, "Can I get that in writing?"
So he wrote a note that I still have displayed: "I will never ever
never never ever ever never ever hate you! Cameron"
He's never been the slightest bit rebellious. I credit unschooling and
mindful parenting with that. Had he stayed in school and had we
continued with the traditional parenting, chances are that we probably
would have had issues.
"Super gifted" is not a very good way to look at any behavior---unless
you're just trying to get the parent to be OK with what's happening
*now* in lieu of a better "future"---Let's look at him as struggling
through a difficult situation and in need of guidance and help and
understanding instead!
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
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Schuyler
> Years ago before unschooling, Cameron (9 or 10 at the time, I guess)The idea of teenage rebellion is an important myth to my mom. She talks
> asked why all teenagers were rebellious. I said that was just the way
> it was, and that all teens hate their parents. <g>
about it with some regularity. Saying things like "Well, someday Simon and
Linnaea will start to be trouble." or "All kids rebel from their parents, it
is an important act of separation." I think it is a very important notion
for her as I rebelled pretty radically (and some could argue that the fact
that I am choosing to be nothing like my parents are is an act of
rebellion--I'd like to think of it more as an act of embracing) when I hit
about 13 (oddly the same time as she moved 200 miles away for a job). And my
brother still barely talks to her. There was never anything harsh about
that, just when he went to college he never came home again. If I were to
argue that it isn't inevitable I would be questioning her parenting. And
while I do question her parenting, I tend not to feel the need to question
it aloud.
It isn't true. If the goal of the parent-child relationship is that
relationship and not pushing some other agenda, like the parent's career or
the child's ability to get into Yale or that moment when some parent says
"You do it because I said so." when their kid asks why, then the period of
growing from child to adult should not be fraught with tension and fights. I
believe this with two children who haven't reached their teens yet. So I am
not speaking from experience. However I have watched 9 year olds and 4 year
olds and 6 year olds fight with their parents and had their parents fight
back in ways that haven't occured in our lives.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
Ren Allen
~~I kept pulling her
out, she kept going in. ~~
She was communicating.
Why not stop at a rack and wait for her to be done in there? You can't
expect a young child to NOT be fascinated with a hiding place, nor
should a parent expect to be able to focus on shopping while a young
child is with them.
If we consider the needs of the child first and foremost, then it ends
most of the reasons for meltdowns. I have an extremely
intense/sensitive child and in trying to consider his needs and
desires I feel that we've saved a ton of wasted negative energy!
Children like to hide. Find a way for them to do it rather than
constantly stopping them. If they are knocking things off the racks or
causing problems then it's time to leave the store and find a park
where they can safely play. Expectations that are unrealistic (pulling
a child out of a rack and expecting them to understand why) leads to
problems. Mimicking a child that is frustrated is disrespectful.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
out, she kept going in. ~~
She was communicating.
Why not stop at a rack and wait for her to be done in there? You can't
expect a young child to NOT be fascinated with a hiding place, nor
should a parent expect to be able to focus on shopping while a young
child is with them.
If we consider the needs of the child first and foremost, then it ends
most of the reasons for meltdowns. I have an extremely
intense/sensitive child and in trying to consider his needs and
desires I feel that we've saved a ton of wasted negative energy!
Children like to hide. Find a way for them to do it rather than
constantly stopping them. If they are knocking things off the racks or
causing problems then it's time to leave the store and find a park
where they can safely play. Expectations that are unrealistic (pulling
a child out of a rack and expecting them to understand why) leads to
problems. Mimicking a child that is frustrated is disrespectful.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/2006 1:54:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
She was communicating.
Why not stop at a rack and wait for her to be done in there? You can't
expect a young child to NOT be fascinated with a hiding place, nor
should a parent expect to be able to focus on shopping while a young
child is with them.
I'm a single mom. I support myself and three children and somehow manage to
home educate as well. Sometimes there is time for play at a store. We've done
that a good bit. Sometimes there isn't because I have to be at a gig and
work so that we have food on our table. I've been on my own since my youngest
was a baby. When I'm at a store (which isn't often) I need to shop and focus on
shopping and not loose my child to a child abductor. I did what I needed to
do to protect my daughter. Also, I respect store merchandise and do not feel
that people want children playing inside of clothing racks with sticky
fingers from having just eaten a PB&J sandwich or whatever. I don't want someone's
kid all over my microphones, instruments and music equipment when I'm at
work and I don't want to be the kind of parent that allows that when we are
somewhere in public.
If we consider the needs of the child first and foremost, then it ends
most of the reasons for meltdowns.
Her most basic needs are to eat and have a roof over her head. As her
provider I had to quickly get done with the shopping and then go to work.
I have an extremely
intense/sensitive child and in trying to consider his needs and
desires I feel that we've saved a ton of wasted negative energy!
Children like to hide. Find a way for them to do it rather than
constantly stopping them. If they are knocking things off the racks or
causing problems then it's time to leave the store and find a park
where they can safely play.
LOL! That would be nice if we all had lives where we could make a departure
to a park every time our child needs a park. Maybe if I won the lottery or
something! There are times you need to be in a store and your child has to
behave themselves! Luckily I have only had a problem with that sort of thing less
than a handful of times because my children and I are very close and they
understand when its time to help so that we, as a family, can accomplish our
goal. I must also say that even my friends who are stay at home moms, or aren't
widowed or divorced and have plenty of support and family around them do NOT
always have the luxury of taking off for the park when their child is
feeling playful.
Expectations that are unrealistic (pulling
a child out of a rack and expecting them to understand why) leads to
problems. Mimicking a child that is frustrated is disrespectful.
I don't feel that doing something that ended in both of us being in stitches
from laughter was disrespectful. I had to get my shopping done and leave. I
could have chosen
1. to do what I did (which solved the problem, and again ended in laughter
and hugs)
2. To leave her in the rack (dangerous for her, and disrespectful to the
store owners)
3. to strap her into a stroller (not cool at all with me)
4. to hold her against her will (again, not the way I like to treat her)
A park day wasn't possible. I can't imagine that the choice I made harmed
her in any way.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
She was communicating.
Why not stop at a rack and wait for her to be done in there? You can't
expect a young child to NOT be fascinated with a hiding place, nor
should a parent expect to be able to focus on shopping while a young
child is with them.
I'm a single mom. I support myself and three children and somehow manage to
home educate as well. Sometimes there is time for play at a store. We've done
that a good bit. Sometimes there isn't because I have to be at a gig and
work so that we have food on our table. I've been on my own since my youngest
was a baby. When I'm at a store (which isn't often) I need to shop and focus on
shopping and not loose my child to a child abductor. I did what I needed to
do to protect my daughter. Also, I respect store merchandise and do not feel
that people want children playing inside of clothing racks with sticky
fingers from having just eaten a PB&J sandwich or whatever. I don't want someone's
kid all over my microphones, instruments and music equipment when I'm at
work and I don't want to be the kind of parent that allows that when we are
somewhere in public.
If we consider the needs of the child first and foremost, then it ends
most of the reasons for meltdowns.
Her most basic needs are to eat and have a roof over her head. As her
provider I had to quickly get done with the shopping and then go to work.
I have an extremely
intense/sensitive child and in trying to consider his needs and
desires I feel that we've saved a ton of wasted negative energy!
Children like to hide. Find a way for them to do it rather than
constantly stopping them. If they are knocking things off the racks or
causing problems then it's time to leave the store and find a park
where they can safely play.
LOL! That would be nice if we all had lives where we could make a departure
to a park every time our child needs a park. Maybe if I won the lottery or
something! There are times you need to be in a store and your child has to
behave themselves! Luckily I have only had a problem with that sort of thing less
than a handful of times because my children and I are very close and they
understand when its time to help so that we, as a family, can accomplish our
goal. I must also say that even my friends who are stay at home moms, or aren't
widowed or divorced and have plenty of support and family around them do NOT
always have the luxury of taking off for the park when their child is
feeling playful.
Expectations that are unrealistic (pulling
a child out of a rack and expecting them to understand why) leads to
problems. Mimicking a child that is frustrated is disrespectful.
I don't feel that doing something that ended in both of us being in stitches
from laughter was disrespectful. I had to get my shopping done and leave. I
could have chosen
1. to do what I did (which solved the problem, and again ended in laughter
and hugs)
2. To leave her in the rack (dangerous for her, and disrespectful to the
store owners)
3. to strap her into a stroller (not cool at all with me)
4. to hold her against her will (again, not the way I like to treat her)
A park day wasn't possible. I can't imagine that the choice I made harmed
her in any way.
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: s.waynforth@...
It isn't true. If the goal of the parent-child relationship is that
relationship and not pushing some other agenda, like the parent's
career or
the child's ability to get into Yale or that moment when some parent
says
"You do it because I said so." when their kid asks why, then the period
of
growing from child to adult should not be fraught with tension and
fights.
-=-=-=-
I'll go even further.
*I* think that the rebellion comes in because the child (teen) is doing
EXACTLY what the parent has been pushing the child to do all along: Be
independent! Be curious! Go explore! Make your own decisions!
But then, when the child DOES go out experimenting, the parent wants
that control BACK.
Mom & Dad can't have it BOTH ways. It's unfair to the child.
The child is SUPPOSED to leave home. He's expected to make
mistakes---that's a HUGE part of learning. Trying. Experimenting.
Stopping. Starting. Doing. Believing. Changing.
But weirdly, parents want their kids "perfect" (according to the
parents) before they step out into the "real world." That's not
possible. Of course, I think unschooling children have a distinct
advantage here, because they are already OUT in the real world, but
kids who've had NO autonomy and who have NO experience making small
decisions/choices really have no legs to stand on.
HAH! Like my last post! No *FOUNDATION* <g> to build on. We can use
that blow-up mattress thing here too! <G>
Children who have been told how and when and with whom to do things
really have nothing to base future decisions on. They're missing the
WHY.
I think sometimes the *why* can be explained---not often though. To me
*why* MUST be internal. There has to be a point ---a connection---or
better, a SERIES of connections for an individual to make sense of
*why*.
Again, that's where the Rules vs. Principles thang comes in. Saying,
"Don't hit" may get the person not to hit again right now. But knowing
*WHY* (which must be internalized) hurting others is unkind (or when it
IS appropriate) makes a huge difference in being able to function vs
following orders.
If the parent allows the child to be exactly who he is at this
moment---and accept him and trust and respect him, there's no need to
fight ---well, what IS there to fight about???
-=-=-=-==-=-
I believe this with two children who haven't reached their teens yet.
So I am
not speaking from experience. However I have watched 9 year olds and 4
year
olds and 6 year olds fight with their parents and had their parents
fight
back in ways that haven't occured in our lives.
--=-=-=-
Without exception, ALL of Cameron's traditionally-parented friends have
rebelled---and some quite hard. But *none* of his
unschooled/gently-parented ones have.
Cameron has never rebelled. He HAS experimented and tried things I
wished he hadn't. To me that's part of growing up and of learning about
one's own boundaries and limits. He's had a huge safety net in me, and
he knows I'll never kick him out for learning more about himself. He'll
be 19 next month.
He has *ALWAYS* known that his safety is of utmost importance. And that
I am here for him no matter what. What's there to rebel against??
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
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From: s.waynforth@...
It isn't true. If the goal of the parent-child relationship is that
relationship and not pushing some other agenda, like the parent's
career or
the child's ability to get into Yale or that moment when some parent
says
"You do it because I said so." when their kid asks why, then the period
of
growing from child to adult should not be fraught with tension and
fights.
-=-=-=-
I'll go even further.
*I* think that the rebellion comes in because the child (teen) is doing
EXACTLY what the parent has been pushing the child to do all along: Be
independent! Be curious! Go explore! Make your own decisions!
But then, when the child DOES go out experimenting, the parent wants
that control BACK.
Mom & Dad can't have it BOTH ways. It's unfair to the child.
The child is SUPPOSED to leave home. He's expected to make
mistakes---that's a HUGE part of learning. Trying. Experimenting.
Stopping. Starting. Doing. Believing. Changing.
But weirdly, parents want their kids "perfect" (according to the
parents) before they step out into the "real world." That's not
possible. Of course, I think unschooling children have a distinct
advantage here, because they are already OUT in the real world, but
kids who've had NO autonomy and who have NO experience making small
decisions/choices really have no legs to stand on.
HAH! Like my last post! No *FOUNDATION* <g> to build on. We can use
that blow-up mattress thing here too! <G>
Children who have been told how and when and with whom to do things
really have nothing to base future decisions on. They're missing the
WHY.
I think sometimes the *why* can be explained---not often though. To me
*why* MUST be internal. There has to be a point ---a connection---or
better, a SERIES of connections for an individual to make sense of
*why*.
Again, that's where the Rules vs. Principles thang comes in. Saying,
"Don't hit" may get the person not to hit again right now. But knowing
*WHY* (which must be internalized) hurting others is unkind (or when it
IS appropriate) makes a huge difference in being able to function vs
following orders.
If the parent allows the child to be exactly who he is at this
moment---and accept him and trust and respect him, there's no need to
fight ---well, what IS there to fight about???
-=-=-=-==-=-
I believe this with two children who haven't reached their teens yet.
So I am
not speaking from experience. However I have watched 9 year olds and 4
year
olds and 6 year olds fight with their parents and had their parents
fight
back in ways that haven't occured in our lives.
--=-=-=-
Without exception, ALL of Cameron's traditionally-parented friends have
rebelled---and some quite hard. But *none* of his
unschooled/gently-parented ones have.
Cameron has never rebelled. He HAS experimented and tried things I
wished he hadn't. To me that's part of growing up and of learning about
one's own boundaries and limits. He's had a huge safety net in me, and
he knows I'll never kick him out for learning more about himself. He'll
be 19 next month.
He has *ALWAYS* known that his safety is of utmost importance. And that
I am here for him no matter what. What's there to rebel against??
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Vickisue Gray
~~He has *ALWAYS* known that his safety is of utmost importance. And that
I am here for him no matter what. What's there to rebel against??
<g> That is almost verbatim of how I raise my kids.
Update: We've been home a few days now, and things have settled down.
Whatever was up with my son has disappeared and he's back to a nice
nine year old.
---------------------------------
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am here for him no matter what. What's there to rebel against??
<g> That is almost verbatim of how I raise my kids.
Update: We've been home a few days now, and things have settled down.
Whatever was up with my son has disappeared and he's back to a nice
nine year old.
---------------------------------
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/2006 5:26:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
vickisue_gray@... writes:
We've been home a few days now, and things have settled down.
Whatever was up with my son has disappeared and he's back to a nice
nine year old.
yipeee!!!!! congrats, that is wonderful news :-)
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vickisue_gray@... writes:
We've been home a few days now, and things have settled down.
Whatever was up with my son has disappeared and he's back to a nice
nine year old.
yipeee!!!!! congrats, that is wonderful news :-)
Adriana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Her most basic needs are to eat and have a roof over her head. ~~
Unschooling isn't about just meeting basic needs though, it's about
honoring all of their needs.....which often takes a large amount of
creativity and patience. There ARE ways to honor the need creatively,
without saying "no" constantly. Even if there has to be a "no" in the
moment, there are ways to do it and NOT turn it into a major
confrontation. That's the kind of ideas we're here to explore.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Unschooling isn't about just meeting basic needs though, it's about
honoring all of their needs.....which often takes a large amount of
creativity and patience. There ARE ways to honor the need creatively,
without saying "no" constantly. Even if there has to be a "no" in the
moment, there are ways to do it and NOT turn it into a major
confrontation. That's the kind of ideas we're here to explore.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Debra Rossing
Schuyler
I agree - it is not a "necessary" thing at all (we aren't there yet but
by all reports we should be entering the prelim phase within the next
year or so as DS hits 9)
Even though "homeschooling" was rare and "unschooling" unheard of when I
was a kid, much less "radical unschooling" (except maybe for "those
hippies living out there on communes"), none of us (me or my siblings)
went through much, if any, rebellion. In fact, I got closer to my mother
the further into my teens I got (12-14 was a little rough more due to
physiological changes than any need to "rebel" or "separate"). It wasn't
uncommon for me to just hang out in the kitchen after dinner to talk,
maybe dry the dishes while she washed them. Major life decisions
included my parents more often than my peers - I'd take in what I saw
and heard from peers and then filter it through discussion with my
parents. I still value their input on big stuff. Curfews didn't exist
when we were teens - my parents saw no need for them, provided we let
them know where we would be and approximately when we'd be home so they
knew we were safe (except for a 2 week period for my sister when she did
not call home when she was out late - not grounded, just had to be in by
a set time so my folks knew she was safe). While they didn't encourage
drinking (lots of alcoholism in the family), there was an explicit
understanding that if we or those we were with had been drinking we
could call home no questions asked for a safe ride. When we made
mistakes in our choices, they were there to back us up and help us pick
up the pieces, instead of "I told you so". Yeah, there were "Because I
said so" times but by and large those were followed up with additional
information on why it was so important. Now, as grown and gone kids with
kids of our own, my siblings and I are still very close to each other
and to Mom and Dad.
Deb
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I agree - it is not a "necessary" thing at all (we aren't there yet but
by all reports we should be entering the prelim phase within the next
year or so as DS hits 9)
Even though "homeschooling" was rare and "unschooling" unheard of when I
was a kid, much less "radical unschooling" (except maybe for "those
hippies living out there on communes"), none of us (me or my siblings)
went through much, if any, rebellion. In fact, I got closer to my mother
the further into my teens I got (12-14 was a little rough more due to
physiological changes than any need to "rebel" or "separate"). It wasn't
uncommon for me to just hang out in the kitchen after dinner to talk,
maybe dry the dishes while she washed them. Major life decisions
included my parents more often than my peers - I'd take in what I saw
and heard from peers and then filter it through discussion with my
parents. I still value their input on big stuff. Curfews didn't exist
when we were teens - my parents saw no need for them, provided we let
them know where we would be and approximately when we'd be home so they
knew we were safe (except for a 2 week period for my sister when she did
not call home when she was out late - not grounded, just had to be in by
a set time so my folks knew she was safe). While they didn't encourage
drinking (lots of alcoholism in the family), there was an explicit
understanding that if we or those we were with had been drinking we
could call home no questions asked for a safe ride. When we made
mistakes in our choices, they were there to back us up and help us pick
up the pieces, instead of "I told you so". Yeah, there were "Because I
said so" times but by and large those were followed up with additional
information on why it was so important. Now, as grown and gone kids with
kids of our own, my siblings and I are still very close to each other
and to Mom and Dad.
Deb
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
CNC Software, Inc.
www.mastercam.com
**********************************************************************
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
trying to give him the space to be exactly who he is and there
haven't been any fights at all. He's been friendly and helpful and
kind. He asks a lot of questions and thinks about the answers. He
likes having things explained - especially "rules". When the
explanation makes sense he remembers it. What IS there to fight
about, indeed!?!
Today his mom picked him up to take him into town. About an hour
later he was back - they'd had a fight and he'd jumped out of the
car and walked back to our house. She'd had an agenda that she
didn't reveal until they were in the car, on their way. He was
pissed as hell - even left his skateboard behind in his hurry to
Escape!
me "this is the honeymoon period - just wait!" Its good to know that
maybe they're all wrong.
I was so proud of George when he talked to Rayan, today. Rayan said
he didn't want to see his mom for awhile and George commented "well,
maybe that's what you need right now." No judgement. No attempt to
convince him to give his mom another chance. He's willing for that
to be Rayan's decision. It was scary to think of Ray jumping out of
a moving vehical (I don't know how fast - on these back roads, not
very, I'm sure, but still...) and walking three miles to get away.
Scary to think what he *might* do *if*.
I'm really glad he felt safe enough here to come back.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>> If the parent allows the child to be exactly who he is at thisto
> moment---and accept him and trust and respect him, there's no need
> fight ---well, what IS there to fight about???We're seeing that right now with my stepson. At our house we're
trying to give him the space to be exactly who he is and there
haven't been any fights at all. He's been friendly and helpful and
kind. He asks a lot of questions and thinks about the answers. He
likes having things explained - especially "rules". When the
explanation makes sense he remembers it. What IS there to fight
about, indeed!?!
Today his mom picked him up to take him into town. About an hour
later he was back - they'd had a fight and he'd jumped out of the
car and walked back to our house. She'd had an agenda that she
didn't reveal until they were in the car, on their way. He was
pissed as hell - even left his skateboard behind in his hurry to
Escape!
> Cameron has never rebelled. He HAS experimented and tried things Iabout
> wished he hadn't. To me that's part of growing up and of learning
> one's own boundaries and limits. He's had a huge safety net in me,and
> he knows I'll never kick him out for learning more about himself.This is so affirming to hear. IRL I'm surrounded by people telling
me "this is the honeymoon period - just wait!" Its good to know that
maybe they're all wrong.
I was so proud of George when he talked to Rayan, today. Rayan said
he didn't want to see his mom for awhile and George commented "well,
maybe that's what you need right now." No judgement. No attempt to
convince him to give his mom another chance. He's willing for that
to be Rayan's decision. It was scary to think of Ray jumping out of
a moving vehical (I don't know how fast - on these back roads, not
very, I'm sure, but still...) and walking three miles to get away.
Scary to think what he *might* do *if*.
I'm really glad he felt safe enough here to come back.
---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)