re: gifted
frozenandcold
Something that I just keep thinking of as I am reading through these
posts is that it is very interesting that we only use the
term "gifted" when we are talking about kids in school. I don't think
I have ever heard a person refer to an adult as "gifted". I hear, "He
is really good at building things", "He is quite the musician", or "He
knows a lot about investments" etc. but I don't ever hear "He is
gifted" when talking about adults. It is an academic thing and I
think that is why us unschoolers get so yucked by it. It is a
measurement of intelligence, which means what?.............Absolutely
nothing!
Heidi
posts is that it is very interesting that we only use the
term "gifted" when we are talking about kids in school. I don't think
I have ever heard a person refer to an adult as "gifted". I hear, "He
is really good at building things", "He is quite the musician", or "He
knows a lot about investments" etc. but I don't ever hear "He is
gifted" when talking about adults. It is an academic thing and I
think that is why us unschoolers get so yucked by it. It is a
measurement of intelligence, which means what?.............Absolutely
nothing!
Heidi
wuweimama
--- In [email protected], "frozenandcold"
<fivefreebirds@...> wrote:
hear, "He > is really good at building things", "He is quite the
musician", or "He > knows a lot about investments" etc. but I don't
ever hear "He is > gifted" when talking about adults. It is an
academic thing and I > think that is why us unschoolers get so yucked
by it.>>
***Heidi, I'd agree with all of these observations; but the following
just doesn't quite sit with me.
<<It is a > measurement of intelligence, which means
what?.............Absolutely > nothing!
child's exceptional intelligence could help a parent to recognize the
asynchronicity of their cognitive ability, perhaps from their
emotional ability. It all falls back to eliminating *expectations* of
others to be "at a defined level" of performace by age, I agree. But,
the awareness that my dh and ds are both highly sensitive provides
insight into their perceptions and reactions being significantly
different than my own.
Pat
<fivefreebirds@...> wrote:
>think > I have ever heard a person refer to an adult as "gifted". I
> Something that I just keep thinking of as I am reading through these
> posts is that it is very interesting that we only use the
> term "gifted" when we are talking about kids in school. I don't
hear, "He > is really good at building things", "He is quite the
musician", or "He > knows a lot about investments" etc. but I don't
ever hear "He is > gifted" when talking about adults. It is an
academic thing and I > think that is why us unschoolers get so yucked
by it.>>
***Heidi, I'd agree with all of these observations; but the following
just doesn't quite sit with me.
<<It is a > measurement of intelligence, which means
what?.............Absolutely > nothing!
>Like the descriptor 'highly sensitive', I believe the awareness of a
child's exceptional intelligence could help a parent to recognize the
asynchronicity of their cognitive ability, perhaps from their
emotional ability. It all falls back to eliminating *expectations* of
others to be "at a defined level" of performace by age, I agree. But,
the awareness that my dh and ds are both highly sensitive provides
insight into their perceptions and reactions being significantly
different than my own.
Pat
Ren Allen
~~But,
the awareness that my dh and ds are both highly sensitive provides
insight into their perceptions and reactions being significantly
different than my own.~~
Yes, but to an aware, mindful parent, the intelligence level isn't
something to be measured. It doesn't change the fact that we see the
child for who he/she is right now and respond to their needs. The
unschooling philsophies are the same whether a child is "highly
intelligent" or not (and the term "intelligent" is so subjective
because there are SO many different kinds of intelligence
anyway)....therefore rendering the label "gifted" or "intelligent" as
fairly useless descriptors in my opinion.
I've met a real-life unschooling "prodigy". A child and his mama
stayed with us for a while and we became friends. She even cared for
my children in my absence. This wee child that was all of two years of
age, chubby-cheeked, walking around in a diaper could read ANYTHING.
He'd been reading since 16 months of age. Truly, fluently reading. He
could read my emails as I sat at the computer.....a bit jarring to say
the least. He could read the newspaper at my table. He appea\red to be
a little toddler, yet he had this thirst for BIG ideas and knowledge.
I love, love, love how his mama treated him. As a child that wanted
answers. She didn't label him, treat him as though he was anything but
her precious and much-loved child. She responded to his needs in each
moment and honored his journey. He didn't want to read storybooks when
she offered, so they read the encyclopedia and other reference books
together.
He was simply himself. She helped him get what he needed in each
moment, provided him with the things he loved and that's it. Isn't
that what every unschooling parent strives to do? She didn't see him
as "more intelligent", but as "thirsty for knowledge of big ideas."
Understanding our child's unique make-up IS helpful. I've read about
sensory integration issues and other descriptors in an effort to
understand some of Jalen's behaviors. Seeking understanding is one
thing, trying to define him as his behavior is a place I don't want to
visit.
I think that in an unschooling household, the term "intelligent" is
fairly useless. "sensitive" is a whole different matter, it is
actually something you can define by how people respond to a variety
of stimulus...though even with "sensitive" it looks hugely different
from person to person.
How do you quantify intelligence without a test? A test that really
means very little because it is testing certain KINDS of intelligence.
And if you can't quantify it, does it matter? The label "intelligent"
is useless to me.
I prefer to seek understanding with descriptors that are less vague
and hazy.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
the awareness that my dh and ds are both highly sensitive provides
insight into their perceptions and reactions being significantly
different than my own.~~
Yes, but to an aware, mindful parent, the intelligence level isn't
something to be measured. It doesn't change the fact that we see the
child for who he/she is right now and respond to their needs. The
unschooling philsophies are the same whether a child is "highly
intelligent" or not (and the term "intelligent" is so subjective
because there are SO many different kinds of intelligence
anyway)....therefore rendering the label "gifted" or "intelligent" as
fairly useless descriptors in my opinion.
I've met a real-life unschooling "prodigy". A child and his mama
stayed with us for a while and we became friends. She even cared for
my children in my absence. This wee child that was all of two years of
age, chubby-cheeked, walking around in a diaper could read ANYTHING.
He'd been reading since 16 months of age. Truly, fluently reading. He
could read my emails as I sat at the computer.....a bit jarring to say
the least. He could read the newspaper at my table. He appea\red to be
a little toddler, yet he had this thirst for BIG ideas and knowledge.
I love, love, love how his mama treated him. As a child that wanted
answers. She didn't label him, treat him as though he was anything but
her precious and much-loved child. She responded to his needs in each
moment and honored his journey. He didn't want to read storybooks when
she offered, so they read the encyclopedia and other reference books
together.
He was simply himself. She helped him get what he needed in each
moment, provided him with the things he loved and that's it. Isn't
that what every unschooling parent strives to do? She didn't see him
as "more intelligent", but as "thirsty for knowledge of big ideas."
Understanding our child's unique make-up IS helpful. I've read about
sensory integration issues and other descriptors in an effort to
understand some of Jalen's behaviors. Seeking understanding is one
thing, trying to define him as his behavior is a place I don't want to
visit.
I think that in an unschooling household, the term "intelligent" is
fairly useless. "sensitive" is a whole different matter, it is
actually something you can define by how people respond to a variety
of stimulus...though even with "sensitive" it looks hugely different
from person to person.
How do you quantify intelligence without a test? A test that really
means very little because it is testing certain KINDS of intelligence.
And if you can't quantify it, does it matter? The label "intelligent"
is useless to me.
I prefer to seek understanding with descriptors that are less vague
and hazy.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Michelle Leifur Reid
On 11/28/06, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
how well you preform in that particular environment - which has
nothing to do with whether or not you obtain the knowledge for which
they are seeking! I suck at multiple choice tests, but I excel at
written tests.
And what exactly is intelligence? Do I think that my children are
"intelligent" sure, but I also realize that it may be a bit of
mother's bias :) I hear them talking about things that I never would
have considered at their ages. They have a world view that is vastly
different from my own when I was a child. Their understanding of
mathematical concepts amazes me because it was something I never was
very good at when I was in school. Their play is indepth and complex,
it goes beyond how I played as a child. Perhaps I a childhood
illiterate :)
There is a girl who bags groceries for me at the store. She has
tirsomy 21 (Down's Syndrome). She remembers that I like paper over
plastic even though I am there only once a week. She is remarkable at
being able to pack bags efficiently and compactly yet not making them
too heavy. She is very aware of who has had their breaks and who is
on break and who needs to take a break and what time they came in so
they need a break at such-n-such time. Stuff I never keep track of at
my own job! I think she is simply remarkable because she is so good
at things that I can't do well. I hear the other baggers (who also
collect shopping carts) talking about how "stooooopid" she is all the
time. My only thought when I hear that is, "Right. And you are
bagging groceries because all the rocket scientist jobs are taken up."
Here is a young lady who has a unique talent and is happy in her job.
She remembers people's names and that I have three children and when
I go in without Dan she asks how he is doing. Not quite what I would
call "stoooopid" Is she intelligent? Who knows. Maybe it's me that
isn't intelligent because I SUCK at bagging groceries and can't
remember when *I* last had a break let alone my co-workers.
begin with. It truly doesn't equate to anything. I've met people
with very high IQ levels yet they can't remember to look both ways
before crossing the street and forget to balance their checkbooks so
are always one paycheck away from bancruptcy. And I've met people
with very low IQ's who have such a wonderful understanding of people
and nature that I love to be around them just because of their
outlooks on life. We all have our unique talents and gifts. Some of
it is academic, some is artistic, some is philosophical, some is
rational, some is athletic, some is empathic, etc etc etc.
Michelle
> How do you quantify intelligence without a test? A test that reallyNot only are the tests testing certain KINDS of intelligence but also
> means very little because it is testing certain KINDS of intelligence.
> And if you can't quantify it, does it matter? The label "intelligent"
> is useless to me.
>
how well you preform in that particular environment - which has
nothing to do with whether or not you obtain the knowledge for which
they are seeking! I suck at multiple choice tests, but I excel at
written tests.
And what exactly is intelligence? Do I think that my children are
"intelligent" sure, but I also realize that it may be a bit of
mother's bias :) I hear them talking about things that I never would
have considered at their ages. They have a world view that is vastly
different from my own when I was a child. Their understanding of
mathematical concepts amazes me because it was something I never was
very good at when I was in school. Their play is indepth and complex,
it goes beyond how I played as a child. Perhaps I a childhood
illiterate :)
There is a girl who bags groceries for me at the store. She has
tirsomy 21 (Down's Syndrome). She remembers that I like paper over
plastic even though I am there only once a week. She is remarkable at
being able to pack bags efficiently and compactly yet not making them
too heavy. She is very aware of who has had their breaks and who is
on break and who needs to take a break and what time they came in so
they need a break at such-n-such time. Stuff I never keep track of at
my own job! I think she is simply remarkable because she is so good
at things that I can't do well. I hear the other baggers (who also
collect shopping carts) talking about how "stooooopid" she is all the
time. My only thought when I hear that is, "Right. And you are
bagging groceries because all the rocket scientist jobs are taken up."
Here is a young lady who has a unique talent and is happy in her job.
She remembers people's names and that I have three children and when
I go in without Dan she asks how he is doing. Not quite what I would
call "stoooopid" Is she intelligent? Who knows. Maybe it's me that
isn't intelligent because I SUCK at bagging groceries and can't
remember when *I* last had a break let alone my co-workers.
> I prefer to seek understanding with descriptors that are less vagueWhich makes me question why we even need to qualify intelligence to
> and hazy.
begin with. It truly doesn't equate to anything. I've met people
with very high IQ levels yet they can't remember to look both ways
before crossing the street and forget to balance their checkbooks so
are always one paycheck away from bancruptcy. And I've met people
with very low IQ's who have such a wonderful understanding of people
and nature that I love to be around them just because of their
outlooks on life. We all have our unique talents and gifts. Some of
it is academic, some is artistic, some is philosophical, some is
rational, some is athletic, some is empathic, etc etc etc.
Michelle
Lesa
>>>It is a measurement of intelligence, which means what?............Absolutely
nothing!<<<
And it's only a measurement of one type of intelligence. It's a limited
view of intelligence. There's a book out now that discusses this. I can't
think of the name of it, something about there being 5 types of intelligence
Lesa M.
My Blog: http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
My eBay Store: http://store.auctiva.com/lesajm
-------Original Message-------
From: frozenandcold
Date: 11/28/06 00:07:51
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] re: gifted
Something that I just keep thinking of as I am reading through these
posts is that it is very interesting that we only use the
term "gifted" when we are talking about kids in school. I don't think
I have ever heard a person refer to an adult as "gifted". I hear, "He
is really good at building things", "He is quite the musician", or "He
knows a lot about investments" etc. but I don't ever hear "He is
gifted" when talking about adults. It is an academic thing and I
think that is why us unschoolers get so yucked by it. It is a
measurement of intelligence, which means what?.............Absolutely
nothing!
Heidi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
madonaverde
I was one of those kids identified as "gifted" back in 5th grade or
so. I know that being shuffled into this category got me access to
more educational opportunities in school that made it more interesting
(eg programs, field trips etc etc etc that only the "gifted" classes
were offered/got to do). For that, I will always be grateful.
On the other hand...
Between that and my IQ scores, I was also hounded many times over the
years for "not living up to my 'potential' ". Barf.
What that really meant is that I hated school and wasn't "motivated"
to get A's all the time - even though I supposedly "could, if I wanted
to" etc etc etc. I had a great penchant for getting low b's and
occasional c's on my midterm grades (the ones that didn't "count"),
and then managing to pull them up to high b's/low a's by the time we
got to the ones that "counted". I did better on the assignments that
I liked. Fancy that. ;-)
It also meant that I was constantly comparing myself with the other
"gifted" kids and wondering why I wasn't doing as well academically as
they were. I gave myself a lot of hell in general for wondering why I
didn't do better, given that everyone else seemed to agree that I
"could" do it because I was diagnosed as "smart" etc etc etc.
I was also recruited for two different "gifted" magnet program in high
school (you couldn't even be considered for the program without a
certain minimum IQ score). I was floored when a classmate of mine -
who I always considered extremely smart and much more articulate than
I - wasn't being considered for one of the two programs because his IQ
apparently was lower than mine and did not meet the minimum.
And speaking of the other kinds of "gifted" that they don't test for....
I did end up attending one of the above-mentioned magnet programs and
continued to have academic issues. In particular, the instructors
were trying to put us in these tight boxes that just didn't fit me (or
many of the other kids). Some of the kids rebelled and just didn't
perform, others (with wickedly strict and academia-is-god minded
parents), simply went along with it anyway for fear of the wrath of
their parents. I couldn't.
So wanna know what I got busted for?
Being a "social butterfly". Meaning I wasn't clique-ish and got along
with EVERYONE in the class as opposed to clinging with a few select
people and denigrating the rest. Meaning that I cared about more in
life than just "getting the grades". Meaning the guy that I was sorta
kinda seeing at the time was in rebel mode and was screwing up with
his grades because he thought the system was bullshit too.
Meanwhile.
Mommy dearest (his, not mine), complained to the teacher that she
thought it was MY fault for "distracting" the poor lad and thereby
causing his declining grades. The (male chauvanist) teacher called
my mom and I into a parent teacher conference and I was reprimanded.
Made to sign a CONTRACT (or risk being kicked out of the program) that
stated (among other things) that I would not contact said poor
suffering lad outside of class until my homework for the evening was
done.
So.
Against the wall, said contract was signed. A few weeks later, said
suffering lad told me he didn't want anything to do with me anymore
because I wasn't enough of a "go-getter". He then proceeded to
actively harass and torment me (largely over academic issues - ie that
he was better/smarter than I) for the rest of my high school career.
A few weeks after that, I left the program (although I did finish out
High School at the same school).
After high school, I went to a public college - UC Santa Barbara, got
ok grades, did a lot of fun stuff while staying drug-free and
responsible, stayed a "social butterfly" and was HAPPY. He went to
Stanford (his mama determined which schools he would apply to - they
were all private/ivy league), remained an obnoxious ass, got hooked on
drugs and fried his brain.
Hmm. "Gifted".
;-)
so. I know that being shuffled into this category got me access to
more educational opportunities in school that made it more interesting
(eg programs, field trips etc etc etc that only the "gifted" classes
were offered/got to do). For that, I will always be grateful.
On the other hand...
Between that and my IQ scores, I was also hounded many times over the
years for "not living up to my 'potential' ". Barf.
What that really meant is that I hated school and wasn't "motivated"
to get A's all the time - even though I supposedly "could, if I wanted
to" etc etc etc. I had a great penchant for getting low b's and
occasional c's on my midterm grades (the ones that didn't "count"),
and then managing to pull them up to high b's/low a's by the time we
got to the ones that "counted". I did better on the assignments that
I liked. Fancy that. ;-)
It also meant that I was constantly comparing myself with the other
"gifted" kids and wondering why I wasn't doing as well academically as
they were. I gave myself a lot of hell in general for wondering why I
didn't do better, given that everyone else seemed to agree that I
"could" do it because I was diagnosed as "smart" etc etc etc.
I was also recruited for two different "gifted" magnet program in high
school (you couldn't even be considered for the program without a
certain minimum IQ score). I was floored when a classmate of mine -
who I always considered extremely smart and much more articulate than
I - wasn't being considered for one of the two programs because his IQ
apparently was lower than mine and did not meet the minimum.
And speaking of the other kinds of "gifted" that they don't test for....
I did end up attending one of the above-mentioned magnet programs and
continued to have academic issues. In particular, the instructors
were trying to put us in these tight boxes that just didn't fit me (or
many of the other kids). Some of the kids rebelled and just didn't
perform, others (with wickedly strict and academia-is-god minded
parents), simply went along with it anyway for fear of the wrath of
their parents. I couldn't.
So wanna know what I got busted for?
Being a "social butterfly". Meaning I wasn't clique-ish and got along
with EVERYONE in the class as opposed to clinging with a few select
people and denigrating the rest. Meaning that I cared about more in
life than just "getting the grades". Meaning the guy that I was sorta
kinda seeing at the time was in rebel mode and was screwing up with
his grades because he thought the system was bullshit too.
Meanwhile.
Mommy dearest (his, not mine), complained to the teacher that she
thought it was MY fault for "distracting" the poor lad and thereby
causing his declining grades. The (male chauvanist) teacher called
my mom and I into a parent teacher conference and I was reprimanded.
Made to sign a CONTRACT (or risk being kicked out of the program) that
stated (among other things) that I would not contact said poor
suffering lad outside of class until my homework for the evening was
done.
So.
Against the wall, said contract was signed. A few weeks later, said
suffering lad told me he didn't want anything to do with me anymore
because I wasn't enough of a "go-getter". He then proceeded to
actively harass and torment me (largely over academic issues - ie that
he was better/smarter than I) for the rest of my high school career.
A few weeks after that, I left the program (although I did finish out
High School at the same school).
After high school, I went to a public college - UC Santa Barbara, got
ok grades, did a lot of fun stuff while staying drug-free and
responsible, stayed a "social butterfly" and was HAPPY. He went to
Stanford (his mama determined which schools he would apply to - they
were all private/ivy league), remained an obnoxious ass, got hooked on
drugs and fried his brain.
Hmm. "Gifted".
;-)