Re: more CL
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/20/2006 12:56:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
I DO have to give up my "ideal"
home, but that's much more desirable than living with two kids and a
dh that aren't thrilled with the choice, because I love them more than
my idea of a mini-farm.<<<<<<<<<<
See I would not look at it as I had to "give up my mini-farm" that sounds
so final and negative and would, for me, stop the flow of ideas. I would say
that in the end my desire to have happy children and dh was my preference,
what I really wanted and needed and then I would also look at creating my own
"mini-farm" right where I was, not just "giving it up". I have done the same
thing. I have my own mini-farm right here, and it has fulfilled my need to
have "critters" around, without anyone having to "give up" anything. What I
really wanted was not "a farm" what I really wanted was to feel closer to the
earth and animals, have that feeling of providing some food for my family.
It may sound like just playing with words but it has the power to open up
ideas rather than shut them down.
Just a thought,
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
I DO have to give up my "ideal"
home, but that's much more desirable than living with two kids and a
dh that aren't thrilled with the choice, because I love them more than
my idea of a mini-farm.<<<<<<<<<<
See I would not look at it as I had to "give up my mini-farm" that sounds
so final and negative and would, for me, stop the flow of ideas. I would say
that in the end my desire to have happy children and dh was my preference,
what I really wanted and needed and then I would also look at creating my own
"mini-farm" right where I was, not just "giving it up". I have done the same
thing. I have my own mini-farm right here, and it has fulfilled my need to
have "critters" around, without anyone having to "give up" anything. What I
really wanted was not "a farm" what I really wanted was to feel closer to the
earth and animals, have that feeling of providing some food for my family.
It may sound like just playing with words but it has the power to open up
ideas rather than shut them down.
Just a thought,
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~It involves communication. We start with finding out what the real
wants/needs are. Sometimes they are obvious but sometimes not. Then we
work at throwing out ideas for solutions until we reach one where
everyone is happy. ~~
Sounds like exactly what we do. But meeting needs in the long-term is
what I'm more concerned about rather than in each moment. I still have
never heard a great breakdown of what happens when two people want
opposing things OR the same thing (ie; the front seat).
Yes, we work it out until we come to a mutually agreeable solution,
but that often means compromise....Sierra might not get the front seat
right now, but she gets it on the way back or some similar compromise.
I don't see how giving up something you initially wanted is a bad thing.
My dh does not want ANY pets. None, ever. Sierra and I want chickens,
dogs, etc.... Dh has allergies to consider also. Yes, we care more
about his comfort level than having the animals, BUT we aren't getting
exactly what we want either. We're giving something up. Not a big deal
really........
My mini-farm isn't going to happen, though I will explore components
of it to satisfy some of those needs....like beekeeping and such.
Compromise.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
wants/needs are. Sometimes they are obvious but sometimes not. Then we
work at throwing out ideas for solutions until we reach one where
everyone is happy. ~~
Sounds like exactly what we do. But meeting needs in the long-term is
what I'm more concerned about rather than in each moment. I still have
never heard a great breakdown of what happens when two people want
opposing things OR the same thing (ie; the front seat).
Yes, we work it out until we come to a mutually agreeable solution,
but that often means compromise....Sierra might not get the front seat
right now, but she gets it on the way back or some similar compromise.
I don't see how giving up something you initially wanted is a bad thing.
My dh does not want ANY pets. None, ever. Sierra and I want chickens,
dogs, etc.... Dh has allergies to consider also. Yes, we care more
about his comfort level than having the animals, BUT we aren't getting
exactly what we want either. We're giving something up. Not a big deal
really........
My mini-farm isn't going to happen, though I will explore components
of it to satisfy some of those needs....like beekeeping and such.
Compromise.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
I also wanted to add that I think CL can be a really great way for
people to re-think the whole parenting paradigm. For some, that is the
way to understand a gentle, respectful approach. I don't want to sound
like I'm picking on anyone, I just don't agree with every detail,
though we do have many of the same ideals in our family.
I don't mind being a bit coercive when Jalen is trying to harm
someone, by removing him from hitting range. I don't see all coercion
and all compromise as a bad thing..... at least in immediate
situations where a solution needs to come quickly (golf balls through
the window are not something I want to repeat).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
people to re-think the whole parenting paradigm. For some, that is the
way to understand a gentle, respectful approach. I don't want to sound
like I'm picking on anyone, I just don't agree with every detail,
though we do have many of the same ideals in our family.
I don't mind being a bit coercive when Jalen is trying to harm
someone, by removing him from hitting range. I don't see all coercion
and all compromise as a bad thing..... at least in immediate
situations where a solution needs to come quickly (golf balls through
the window are not something I want to repeat).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
wuweimama
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
Pam:
have> never heard a great breakdown of what happens when two people
want> opposing things OR the same thing (ie; the front seat).
Pat:
We would explore what it is about the front seat that is attractive,
or what is aversive about the alternate seats. Perhaps, someone gets
car sick riding in the back. I know I do. Perhaps, someone is getting
too much sunlight, too much cool air, not enough air circulation, too
crowded by others, too much noise of others in the back, control of
the music dial, chatting with mama, interest in observing driving
skills, desire to "co-pilot", too much elbowing or encroaching into
their space, the seatbelt rubs uncomfortably, too bumpy, too swerving,
someone can't see out, seat rides too low, someone is riding
backwards, wants to read while riding and doesn't have enough light,
etc??? There are many possible underlying needs that can be solved for
which don't include the original solution: everyone sitting in the
front seat.
Ren:
compromise.
Is not going an option, is there another alternative means of
traveling, is it necessary to all go together, is the issue really the
car seat, is there a desire to be the "special" front seat rider, is
there something about the conflict that engages another for attention:
sibling or parent, delay? What is the underlying need? The front seat
has what attractive qualities? How can those be replicated? The back
seat has what unattractive qualities? How can those be eliminated?
determine that another person 'give up something', without sometype of
compulsion, unless they are in agreement. Compulsion can exist in many
ways: coercion, guilt, force, threats, bribes, etc. It is easier to
create a preferable solution, than convince someone to give something
up, ime. So, we spend our energy there.
care more> about his comfort level than having the animals, BUT we
aren't getting> exactly what we want either. We're giving something
up. Not a big deal> really........
or get them from friends with chickens. I am able to visit and share
in the caretaking of the chickens. We could even co-own them and
provide daily care, if we wanted to create that alternative. Same with
dogs, a friend does pet sitting to get her fix of dog love. Perhaps,
you could do animal fostering, or animal rescue for short durations
that don't impact dh, long term. Perhaps, you could provide animal
care in a vet or animal shelter. There are many ways to meet the
underlying needs for animal companionship and caretaking.
There are always more than two options.
Pat
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
Pam:
> ~~It involves communication. We start with finding out what the realwe> work at throwing out ideas for solutions until we reach one where
> wants/needs are. Sometimes they are obvious but sometimes not. Then
> everyone is happy. ~~Ren:
>
> Sounds like exactly what we do. But meeting needs in the long-termis> what I'm more concerned about rather than in each moment. I still
have> never heard a great breakdown of what happens when two people
want> opposing things OR the same thing (ie; the front seat).
Pat:
We would explore what it is about the front seat that is attractive,
or what is aversive about the alternate seats. Perhaps, someone gets
car sick riding in the back. I know I do. Perhaps, someone is getting
too much sunlight, too much cool air, not enough air circulation, too
crowded by others, too much noise of others in the back, control of
the music dial, chatting with mama, interest in observing driving
skills, desire to "co-pilot", too much elbowing or encroaching into
their space, the seatbelt rubs uncomfortably, too bumpy, too swerving,
someone can't see out, seat rides too low, someone is riding
backwards, wants to read while riding and doesn't have enough light,
etc??? There are many possible underlying needs that can be solved for
which don't include the original solution: everyone sitting in the
front seat.
Ren:
> Yes, we work it out until we come to a mutually agreeable solution,seat> right now, but she gets it on the way back or some similar
> but that often means compromise....Sierra might not get the front
compromise.
Is not going an option, is there another alternative means of
traveling, is it necessary to all go together, is the issue really the
car seat, is there a desire to be the "special" front seat rider, is
there something about the conflict that engages another for attention:
sibling or parent, delay? What is the underlying need? The front seat
has what attractive qualities? How can those be replicated? The back
seat has what unattractive qualities? How can those be eliminated?
>I guess it depends on if one wants to give "it" up, or not. I can't
> I don't see how giving up something you initially wanted is a bad thing.
determine that another person 'give up something', without sometype of
compulsion, unless they are in agreement. Compulsion can exist in many
ways: coercion, guilt, force, threats, bribes, etc. It is easier to
create a preferable solution, than convince someone to give something
up, ime. So, we spend our energy there.
>chickens,> dogs, etc.... Dh has allergies to consider also. Yes, we
> My dh does not want ANY pets. None, ever. Sierra and I want
care more> about his comfort level than having the animals, BUT we
aren't getting> exactly what we want either. We're giving something
up. Not a big deal> really........
>I like to have fresh eggs from local, free range chickens. So, we buy
> My mini-farm isn't going to happen, though I will explore components
> of it to satisfy some of those needs....like beekeeping and such.
> Compromise.
or get them from friends with chickens. I am able to visit and share
in the caretaking of the chickens. We could even co-own them and
provide daily care, if we wanted to create that alternative. Same with
dogs, a friend does pet sitting to get her fix of dog love. Perhaps,
you could do animal fostering, or animal rescue for short durations
that don't impact dh, long term. Perhaps, you could provide animal
care in a vet or animal shelter. There are many ways to meet the
underlying needs for animal companionship and caretaking.
There are always more than two options.
Pat
wuweimama
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
sound> like I'm picking on anyone, I just don't agree with every
detail,> though we do have many of the same ideals in our family.
***I agree, living consensually is a totally different paradigm.
Additionally, Consensual Living isn't only related to parenting. For
me, Trust that there are solutions which will address everyone's needs
is the *process* of seeking and creating those solutions. When we halt
the process of seeking and creating solutions, by default, we can't
find them.
someone is trying to harm someone, when we address underlying needs to
mutual satisfaction. I understand that you don't see all coercion and
all compromise as a bad thing. We do not embrace them, nor find them
necessary or helpful to finding mutually agreeable solutions in our
family. In fact, I would find them to be contrary and obstacles to
creating agreeable solutions which meet everyone's needs. Solutions
which are imposed, are not mutually agreeable, ime. I sure wouldn't
like being coerced. I try to treat everyone like I wish to be treated.
Even more, I consider respect 'treating someone how they wish to be
treated'.
Pat
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>the> way to understand a gentle, respectful approach. I don't want to
> I also wanted to add that I think CL can be a really great way for
> people to re-think the whole parenting paradigm. For some, that is
sound> like I'm picking on anyone, I just don't agree with every
detail,> though we do have many of the same ideals in our family.
***I agree, living consensually is a totally different paradigm.
Additionally, Consensual Living isn't only related to parenting. For
me, Trust that there are solutions which will address everyone's needs
is the *process* of seeking and creating those solutions. When we halt
the process of seeking and creating solutions, by default, we can't
find them.
>coercion> and all compromise as a bad thing..... at least in immediate
> I don't mind being a bit coercive when Jalen is trying to harm
> someone, by removing him from hitting range. I don't see all
> situations where a solution needs to come quickly (golf ballsthrough> the window are not something I want to repeat).
>We have found that there are alternatives to being coercive, even if
someone is trying to harm someone, when we address underlying needs to
mutual satisfaction. I understand that you don't see all coercion and
all compromise as a bad thing. We do not embrace them, nor find them
necessary or helpful to finding mutually agreeable solutions in our
family. In fact, I would find them to be contrary and obstacles to
creating agreeable solutions which meet everyone's needs. Solutions
which are imposed, are not mutually agreeable, ime. I sure wouldn't
like being coerced. I try to treat everyone like I wish to be treated.
Even more, I consider respect 'treating someone how they wish to be
treated'.
Pat
Ren Allen
"There are many possible underlying needs that can be solved for
which don't include the original solution: everyone sitting in the
front seat."
Yes, and after all of that has been explored sometimes you just have
two people that LIKE the front seat. You can see better and there is
no way to make the back seat be the same.
And while there are always more than two options, the alternatives
aren't always what a person really wants either. I want my own dog. I
want a greyhound. Sierra also. We've explored the alternatives and
it's not as satisfying. Sometimes we don't get exactly what we want in
the moment......life is like that. We can get what we want long term
if we're willing to FLEX.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
which don't include the original solution: everyone sitting in the
front seat."
Yes, and after all of that has been explored sometimes you just have
two people that LIKE the front seat. You can see better and there is
no way to make the back seat be the same.
And while there are always more than two options, the alternatives
aren't always what a person really wants either. I want my own dog. I
want a greyhound. Sierra also. We've explored the alternatives and
it's not as satisfying. Sometimes we don't get exactly what we want in
the moment......life is like that. We can get what we want long term
if we're willing to FLEX.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~
We have found that there are alternatives to being coercive, even if
someone is trying to harm someone~~
Then please give a useful example of what you do when a young child is
trying to physically punch a sibling (while that person is trying to
get away) cussing and screaming at them, while the parent is running
towards them because there was no warning about the trigger.
When you try to speak calmly to this child, or get in between them, or
have the victime get away, the child tries to punch, harm or otherwise
hurt ME to get to the victim.
Until he is removed from the room, OR that person locks themselves in
a room (which I don't feel is very fair when you're being attacked) he
will not hear words intended to help, he will not stop (even goes to
the door to try and smash in as I'm there trying to deflect and
discuss possible options and hear what is angering him).
I believe stopping harm is essential and part of our job as parents.
Allowing a person to hurt another person is not acceptable. I can only
meet the needs and hear him once the danger is passed. Until then, I
believe the other children need to be safe.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
We have found that there are alternatives to being coercive, even if
someone is trying to harm someone~~
Then please give a useful example of what you do when a young child is
trying to physically punch a sibling (while that person is trying to
get away) cussing and screaming at them, while the parent is running
towards them because there was no warning about the trigger.
When you try to speak calmly to this child, or get in between them, or
have the victime get away, the child tries to punch, harm or otherwise
hurt ME to get to the victim.
Until he is removed from the room, OR that person locks themselves in
a room (which I don't feel is very fair when you're being attacked) he
will not hear words intended to help, he will not stop (even goes to
the door to try and smash in as I'm there trying to deflect and
discuss possible options and hear what is angering him).
I believe stopping harm is essential and part of our job as parents.
Allowing a person to hurt another person is not acceptable. I can only
meet the needs and hear him once the danger is passed. Until then, I
believe the other children need to be safe.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Michelle Leifur Reid
Ren wrote:
"distraction" than coercion. Keon can have a very physical way of
working out is emotions (including happy, sad, angry, tired, content,
etc.) There have been many times that I have had to distract Keon
from his emotions temporarily, especially when people or property are
at risk of injury. I don't see it as coercion. I see it as breaking
his physical reaction long enough to get him in a safe environment
where he can be more physical. Sometimes that means taking him to a
park or stream and letting him throw things. Sometimes it means going
to his room (with him) and stroking his back while he throws a rage on
his bed or floor. Coercion would be convincing him that he didn't
need to express himself so physically. Distraction is breaking the
moment until he can safely express himself how he needs to.
I've had the pleasure of watching Ren parent her children and know
sweet little Jalen who can have a powerful personality. I don't
recall her using methods that I viewed as coercive. I felt she was
always respectful towards as many people's needs as she could.
Sometimes that meant distracting one of her children momentarily.
Maybe it is a difference of what we consider coercive. Perhaps to an
unschooler distraction may appear coercive whereas to someone not as
familiar with unschooling and/or consensual living distraction may
not seem coercive at all. I truly see coercion as that which one does
to force someone to change one's mind. m-w.com defines coerce as:
1 : to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried
to coerce the irreligious -- W. R. Inge>
2 : to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>
3 : to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>
I don't see Ren (or much of anyone else here) acting as such! I see
words that just don't meld well with unschooling: restrain, dominate,
force, compel, threat.
Michelle
> >To which Pat replied:
> > I don't mind being a bit coercive when Jalen is trying to harm
> > someone, by removing him from hitting range. I don't see all
> coercion> and all compromise as a bad thing..... at least in immediate
> > situations where a solution needs to come quickly (golf balls
> through> the window are not something I want to repeat).
> >
>
>I'm wondering if the word that Ren was looking for was more
> We have found that there are alternatives to being coercive, even if
> someone is trying to harm someone, when we address underlying needs to
> mutual satisfaction.
"distraction" than coercion. Keon can have a very physical way of
working out is emotions (including happy, sad, angry, tired, content,
etc.) There have been many times that I have had to distract Keon
from his emotions temporarily, especially when people or property are
at risk of injury. I don't see it as coercion. I see it as breaking
his physical reaction long enough to get him in a safe environment
where he can be more physical. Sometimes that means taking him to a
park or stream and letting him throw things. Sometimes it means going
to his room (with him) and stroking his back while he throws a rage on
his bed or floor. Coercion would be convincing him that he didn't
need to express himself so physically. Distraction is breaking the
moment until he can safely express himself how he needs to.
I've had the pleasure of watching Ren parent her children and know
sweet little Jalen who can have a powerful personality. I don't
recall her using methods that I viewed as coercive. I felt she was
always respectful towards as many people's needs as she could.
Sometimes that meant distracting one of her children momentarily.
Maybe it is a difference of what we consider coercive. Perhaps to an
unschooler distraction may appear coercive whereas to someone not as
familiar with unschooling and/or consensual living distraction may
not seem coercive at all. I truly see coercion as that which one does
to force someone to change one's mind. m-w.com defines coerce as:
1 : to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried
to coerce the irreligious -- W. R. Inge>
2 : to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>
3 : to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>
I don't see Ren (or much of anyone else here) acting as such! I see
words that just don't meld well with unschooling: restrain, dominate,
force, compel, threat.
Michelle
Kelly Weyd
I'm mostly just reading these posts and not totally understanding everything you all are saying, but I do have to chime in on one thing. I have a 6 year old with Asperger's. It's a neurological disorder. She is special needs. Her world is much different than the world most of us live in. She will and does hurt her 8 year old sister. Also my 6 year old flies into horrible rages, where she will kick doors and punch walls.......it's impossible to talk out any kind of solution when she is like this. When she is hurting her sister she has to be removed from the situation........period, end of story. I as a parent have to protect the child that is getting hurt in this situation. So I'm definately with you on this one Ren. I can do the whole gentle parenting, coming up with solutions, compromising, whatever anyone wants to call it with my 8 year old. She is your what society would consider "normal"........not that I like that particular label. Mariah is another story.
Mariah does not process things the way other's would. Like for instance the whole sitting in front of the seat thing as an example (my kids are both in care seats being that they are both under 50 lbs. so this is just for an example only). If Lexi and Mariah were arguing over who could sit in the front seat and we decided that to meet both needs we would take turns doing this. What would happen in our case is that Mariah would end up on the ground outside kicking and screaming because she could not sit in the front seat this particular time. And when she is kicking and screaming we can't even talk to her......she can't be reasoned with. I find that there are times that we just can't meet everyones needs....especially in the short term. We do try to come up with compromises (or whatever word each person wants to attach to it), but we just find that with parenting a special needs child we can't always do that.
Kelly
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~
We have found that there are alternatives to being coercive, even if
someone is trying to harm someone~~
Then please give a useful example of what you do when a young child is
trying to physically punch a sibling (while that person is trying to
get away) cussing and screaming at them, while the parent is running
towards them because there was no warning about the trigger.
When you try to speak calmly to this child, or get in between them, or
have the victime get away, the child tries to punch, harm or otherwise
hurt ME to get to the victim.
Until he is removed from the room, OR that person locks themselves in
a room (which I don't feel is very fair when you're being attacked) he
will not hear words intended to help, he will not stop (even goes to
the door to try and smash in as I'm there trying to deflect and
discuss possible options and hear what is angering him).
I believe stopping harm is essential and part of our job as parents.
Allowing a person to hurt another person is not acceptable. I can only
meet the needs and hear him once the danger is passed. Until then, I
believe the other children need to be safe.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mariah does not process things the way other's would. Like for instance the whole sitting in front of the seat thing as an example (my kids are both in care seats being that they are both under 50 lbs. so this is just for an example only). If Lexi and Mariah were arguing over who could sit in the front seat and we decided that to meet both needs we would take turns doing this. What would happen in our case is that Mariah would end up on the ground outside kicking and screaming because she could not sit in the front seat this particular time. And when she is kicking and screaming we can't even talk to her......she can't be reasoned with. I find that there are times that we just can't meet everyones needs....especially in the short term. We do try to come up with compromises (or whatever word each person wants to attach to it), but we just find that with parenting a special needs child we can't always do that.
Kelly
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~
We have found that there are alternatives to being coercive, even if
someone is trying to harm someone~~
Then please give a useful example of what you do when a young child is
trying to physically punch a sibling (while that person is trying to
get away) cussing and screaming at them, while the parent is running
towards them because there was no warning about the trigger.
When you try to speak calmly to this child, or get in between them, or
have the victime get away, the child tries to punch, harm or otherwise
hurt ME to get to the victim.
Until he is removed from the room, OR that person locks themselves in
a room (which I don't feel is very fair when you're being attacked) he
will not hear words intended to help, he will not stop (even goes to
the door to try and smash in as I'm there trying to deflect and
discuss possible options and hear what is angering him).
I believe stopping harm is essential and part of our job as parents.
Allowing a person to hurt another person is not acceptable. I can only
meet the needs and hear him once the danger is passed. Until then, I
believe the other children need to be safe.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link
Degrees online in as fast as 1 Yr - MBA, Bachelor's, Master's, Associate - Click now to apply
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]