Unschooling? Huh?
velvette1216
Hello, my name is Kolein. I have two boys, ages, just 6 and one turning 3 next week. I am
a SAHM. I would like to find out more about unschooling without reading another book!
(smiles!) Currently I'm looking at The Unschooling Handbook. I find this style to be much
freer than the way I was taught. However, "unlearning" how I've been taught is an ongoing
challenge. I am looking for ways to teach my children by learning about who they are. I
need help though. We have implemented many Montessori materials/presentations in our
classroom as well as the hands on daily activities of life in our home and outside.
I do not make homemade bread, nor do I have an organic garden. And I've occasionally
thrown plastic in the garbage. However, my children are loved and involved in every
aspect of our life...cooking, cleaning, recreation, reading, music. I was raised in a home
where everyone screamed and fought a lot. I choose to have a gentler life now. I want
that for my children and husband, too. I feel that can be accomplished. I believe it to be
by way of my homeschooling approach which is a HUGE factor in our lives.
I am much nicer than this post sounds (after re-reading it!). I have my defenses up
because I've "bumped into" a few unschoolers who have strong opinions about their
approach to teaching as though any other style is of Satan! LOL! I feel a bit safer "talking"
about it here.
I'm hoping someone here has a definition of what unschooling is as well as how to fill out
the proper paperwork for the school district, if your not sitting down teaching geometry???
Thank you,
Kolein - in NY
a SAHM. I would like to find out more about unschooling without reading another book!
(smiles!) Currently I'm looking at The Unschooling Handbook. I find this style to be much
freer than the way I was taught. However, "unlearning" how I've been taught is an ongoing
challenge. I am looking for ways to teach my children by learning about who they are. I
need help though. We have implemented many Montessori materials/presentations in our
classroom as well as the hands on daily activities of life in our home and outside.
I do not make homemade bread, nor do I have an organic garden. And I've occasionally
thrown plastic in the garbage. However, my children are loved and involved in every
aspect of our life...cooking, cleaning, recreation, reading, music. I was raised in a home
where everyone screamed and fought a lot. I choose to have a gentler life now. I want
that for my children and husband, too. I feel that can be accomplished. I believe it to be
by way of my homeschooling approach which is a HUGE factor in our lives.
I am much nicer than this post sounds (after re-reading it!). I have my defenses up
because I've "bumped into" a few unschoolers who have strong opinions about their
approach to teaching as though any other style is of Satan! LOL! I feel a bit safer "talking"
about it here.
I'm hoping someone here has a definition of what unschooling is as well as how to fill out
the proper paperwork for the school district, if your not sitting down teaching geometry???
Thank you,
Kolein - in NY
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/17/2006 9:25:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ditwidget@... writes:
I do not make homemade bread, nor do I have an organic garden. And I've
occasionally
thrown plastic in the garbage. However, my children are loved and involved
in every
aspect of our life...cooking, cleaning, recreation, reading, music.
*****
Kolein, this cracked me up! :)
I don't have time to comment on the rest right now, but just wanted to
assure you that we are not all super crunchy. I do know some unschoolers living
in suburban tract homes! (Is "tract" the right word, or is it track?....ah
well).
Welcome.
~Leslie in SC, off to Bed Bath and Beyond for Christmas
shopping.....definitely *not* making my own gifts this year
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ditwidget@... writes:
I do not make homemade bread, nor do I have an organic garden. And I've
occasionally
thrown plastic in the garbage. However, my children are loved and involved
in every
aspect of our life...cooking, cleaning, recreation, reading, music.
*****
Kolein, this cracked me up! :)
I don't have time to comment on the rest right now, but just wanted to
assure you that we are not all super crunchy. I do know some unschoolers living
in suburban tract homes! (Is "tract" the right word, or is it track?....ah
well).
Welcome.
~Leslie in SC, off to Bed Bath and Beyond for Christmas
shopping.....definitely *not* making my own gifts this year
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John & Karen Buxcel
"However, my children are loved and involved in every
aspect of our life...cooking, cleaning, recreation, reading, music."
Kolein,
I believe you have defined unschooling in this sentence. One could
technically go on and create a much wordier definition, but the real nuts
and bolts of it is simply living a rich, joyful life with your
children.period.
We have 3 boys, 7, 5, and 2. We've continued on with our attachment
parenting lifestyle that we chose when they were born. We trust them and
respect them and listen to them. Just because they turn 5 doesn't mean we
stopped doing any of those things. It's really beautiful, this life that we
can live if we make the choice to follow our hearts.
Just LIVE with your children. Fully and intentionally and unconditionally.
Enjoy your journey,
Karen
currently in Rapid City, SD but preparing to load up the bus and head to
Southern California for 6 months!
http://www.thewildtribe.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aspect of our life...cooking, cleaning, recreation, reading, music."
Kolein,
I believe you have defined unschooling in this sentence. One could
technically go on and create a much wordier definition, but the real nuts
and bolts of it is simply living a rich, joyful life with your
children.period.
We have 3 boys, 7, 5, and 2. We've continued on with our attachment
parenting lifestyle that we chose when they were born. We trust them and
respect them and listen to them. Just because they turn 5 doesn't mean we
stopped doing any of those things. It's really beautiful, this life that we
can live if we make the choice to follow our hearts.
Just LIVE with your children. Fully and intentionally and unconditionally.
Enjoy your journey,
Karen
currently in Rapid City, SD but preparing to load up the bus and head to
Southern California for 6 months!
http://www.thewildtribe.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle Leifur Reid
On 11/17/06, velvette1216 <ditwidget@...> wrote:
"another book" look through the webpages of Sandra Dodd and our own
Joyce as well as the archives here. Or just sit back and read as the
messages come through ( we tend to repeat things often enough) :-)
You will need to deschool yourself, but hopefully you won't have to
deschool your kids (too much). As for others, I think we are all
passionate about the way in which we are raising our children. I also
don't think that you can "half unschool" children. Either you are
unschooling or you are doing something else (self-directed studies
perhaps). Unschooling is so much more than just how we help our
children gain information.
asked to learn geometry. Geometry can be learned from all kinds of
ways other than sitting at a table with work books. Sewing, quilting,
building gardens, making gingerbread houses, making a tree house,
building a kite, getting recycling into a box, sorting the pantry, etc
etc etc. Unschooling (at least for us) is living our lives fully and
following our interests while trusting that we will learn the things
that we need to learn as we have need for them. There is more to it
than that, but that is my definition in a nutshell. Others will have
broader or narrower or different definitions and what they include or
exclude in their definitions. :)
Michelle - who owns no denim apron but is making a 10th century Viking
apron with lots of triangles today
> I do not make homemade bread, nor do I have an organic garden. And I've occasionallyAh, but do you have a denim apron? :-D
> thrown plastic in the garbage.
>However, my children are loved and involved in everySounds like you are already unschooling.
> aspect of our life...cooking, cleaning, recreation, reading, music. I was raised in a home
> where everyone screamed and fought a lot. I choose to have a gentler life now. I want
> that for my children and husband, too. I feel that can be accomplished. I believe it to be
> by way of my homeschooling approach which is a HUGE factor in our lives.
>This is a great place to talk and learn. If you don't want to read
> I am much nicer than this post sounds (after re-reading it!). I have my defenses up
> because I've "bumped into" a few unschoolers who have strong opinions about their
> approach to teaching as though any other style is of Satan! LOL! I feel a bit safer "talking"
> about it here.
>
"another book" look through the webpages of Sandra Dodd and our own
Joyce as well as the archives here. Or just sit back and read as the
messages come through ( we tend to repeat things often enough) :-)
You will need to deschool yourself, but hopefully you won't have to
deschool your kids (too much). As for others, I think we are all
passionate about the way in which we are raising our children. I also
don't think that you can "half unschool" children. Either you are
unschooling or you are doing something else (self-directed studies
perhaps). Unschooling is so much more than just how we help our
children gain information.
>Well, we would only be "sitting down teaching geometry" if our child
> I'm hoping someone here has a definition of what unschooling is as well as how to fill out
> the proper paperwork for the school district, if your not sitting down teaching geometry???
>
asked to learn geometry. Geometry can be learned from all kinds of
ways other than sitting at a table with work books. Sewing, quilting,
building gardens, making gingerbread houses, making a tree house,
building a kite, getting recycling into a box, sorting the pantry, etc
etc etc. Unschooling (at least for us) is living our lives fully and
following our interests while trusting that we will learn the things
that we need to learn as we have need for them. There is more to it
than that, but that is my definition in a nutshell. Others will have
broader or narrower or different definitions and what they include or
exclude in their definitions. :)
Michelle - who owns no denim apron but is making a 10th century Viking
apron with lots of triangles today
Schuyler
Sorry about the weird formatting. I've been getting my yahoo groups in the new and improved formatting and it makes inserting things difficult. I've put the original comments in quotes with indentation, my responses are just normal.
"I would like to find out more about unschooling without reading another book! (smiles!) "
There are a lot of great websites that aren't books, although they are impressive tomes. Joyce's site http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/ is an amazing place, beautifully linear. And Sandra Dodd's site http://sandradodd.com/unschooling is just a labryinth of interconnected pages and ideas, with golden cords to help you find your way through all the while.
"Currently I'm looking at The Unschooling Handbook. I find this style to be much freer than the way I was taught."
Unschooling is likely to be much freer than the way any of us were taught. Unschooling isn't a teaching method, though. It is an approach to education that is about putting aside teaching so that learning can occur. Teaching makes a presumption of a student and an instructor. Unschooling starts with the notion that everyone is a learner and that every situation offers its own learning experience, depending on how you approach it, or how you walk away from it.
"I am looking for ways to teach my children by learning about who they are. "
I would start by putting away the notion of teaching your children. Even when there are things they are learning from you, it is much more helpful to think of yourself as their partner than as their instructor. http://sandradodd.com/wordswords is an essay on why using the word teach may be a stumbling block in your understanding of unschooling. What follows is a quote from that essay:
If I want to teach someone how to use quotation marks, I can talk, show them, make jokes, draw stick figures with speech-balloons, and I could maybe sing songs about it. So IF the person who's in the room "being taught" is thinking about how to file down that one piece of a machine gun that can turn a legal semi-automatic into an illegal automatic, and how to hide that part really well, disguised as something altogether different, what am I doing?
I'm talking, writing, drawing, dancing, and singing. But I'm not teaching. I'm reviewing for myself something I already know. I'm just performing a play of sorts, without any audience. I'm playing with myself. I'm ...well, you know.
So if I'm reading a magazine about machine guns and someone comes and says, "How do I punctuate a quote within a quote?" I can show them. If they don't totally understand, I can draw pictures or give other examples. When I perceive that they have learned the thing they wanted to learn, I should shush up and go back to my magazine, because the action is completed. .
They learned. I helped them learn. I was "the teacher" but I didn't do the work that resulted in learning. The learner did that in his own head. I could put ideas in the air, but only he could hear and process and ask more questions. Without his active work, no teaching can possibly take place.
"I do not make homemade bread, nor do I have an organic garden. And I've occasionally thrown plastic in the garbage. "
There are many people out there who make homemade bread and garden organically and have small holdings with free range chickens and live in a home they built that runs on solar power who, also, happily bid their children farewell ever morning and greet them with a smile every afternoon when they return from school. The two things are not entertwined. And it has been my experience that many of those people who are rigorous about how their food is raised are much more likely to limit their own children's choice of food.
" I have my defenses up because I've "bumped into" a few unschoolers who have strong opinions about their approach to teaching as though any other style is of Satan!"
It is easy to be passionate about unschooling. And it is easy for that passion to come across as intolerance. When you have chosen to allow your children to craft their own lives with your help and to support them in whatever interests them, it is hard to watch other people squash their children into whatever box they feel is the best and most appropriate box to view the rest of the world from. There is a real sense that childhood is short and that every day that you spend traditionally parenting is a day that you've spent not working to create the best relationship possible with your child. And, I suppose, with that in mind, prostelytizing might become a part of an unschoolers approach to the world.
"I'm hoping someone here has a definition of what unschooling is"
My favorite definition of unschooling comes from here: http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/unschooling/unschoolingphilosophy.html
"The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child be who she is and blossom into who she will become. Learning happens as a side effect."
Schuyler
www.wayforth.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"I would like to find out more about unschooling without reading another book! (smiles!) "
There are a lot of great websites that aren't books, although they are impressive tomes. Joyce's site http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/ is an amazing place, beautifully linear. And Sandra Dodd's site http://sandradodd.com/unschooling is just a labryinth of interconnected pages and ideas, with golden cords to help you find your way through all the while.
"Currently I'm looking at The Unschooling Handbook. I find this style to be much freer than the way I was taught."
Unschooling is likely to be much freer than the way any of us were taught. Unschooling isn't a teaching method, though. It is an approach to education that is about putting aside teaching so that learning can occur. Teaching makes a presumption of a student and an instructor. Unschooling starts with the notion that everyone is a learner and that every situation offers its own learning experience, depending on how you approach it, or how you walk away from it.
"I am looking for ways to teach my children by learning about who they are. "
I would start by putting away the notion of teaching your children. Even when there are things they are learning from you, it is much more helpful to think of yourself as their partner than as their instructor. http://sandradodd.com/wordswords is an essay on why using the word teach may be a stumbling block in your understanding of unschooling. What follows is a quote from that essay:
If I want to teach someone how to use quotation marks, I can talk, show them, make jokes, draw stick figures with speech-balloons, and I could maybe sing songs about it. So IF the person who's in the room "being taught" is thinking about how to file down that one piece of a machine gun that can turn a legal semi-automatic into an illegal automatic, and how to hide that part really well, disguised as something altogether different, what am I doing?
I'm talking, writing, drawing, dancing, and singing. But I'm not teaching. I'm reviewing for myself something I already know. I'm just performing a play of sorts, without any audience. I'm playing with myself. I'm ...well, you know.
So if I'm reading a magazine about machine guns and someone comes and says, "How do I punctuate a quote within a quote?" I can show them. If they don't totally understand, I can draw pictures or give other examples. When I perceive that they have learned the thing they wanted to learn, I should shush up and go back to my magazine, because the action is completed. .
They learned. I helped them learn. I was "the teacher" but I didn't do the work that resulted in learning. The learner did that in his own head. I could put ideas in the air, but only he could hear and process and ask more questions. Without his active work, no teaching can possibly take place.
"I do not make homemade bread, nor do I have an organic garden. And I've occasionally thrown plastic in the garbage. "
There are many people out there who make homemade bread and garden organically and have small holdings with free range chickens and live in a home they built that runs on solar power who, also, happily bid their children farewell ever morning and greet them with a smile every afternoon when they return from school. The two things are not entertwined. And it has been my experience that many of those people who are rigorous about how their food is raised are much more likely to limit their own children's choice of food.
" I have my defenses up because I've "bumped into" a few unschoolers who have strong opinions about their approach to teaching as though any other style is of Satan!"
It is easy to be passionate about unschooling. And it is easy for that passion to come across as intolerance. When you have chosen to allow your children to craft their own lives with your help and to support them in whatever interests them, it is hard to watch other people squash their children into whatever box they feel is the best and most appropriate box to view the rest of the world from. There is a real sense that childhood is short and that every day that you spend traditionally parenting is a day that you've spent not working to create the best relationship possible with your child. And, I suppose, with that in mind, prostelytizing might become a part of an unschoolers approach to the world.
"I'm hoping someone here has a definition of what unschooling is"
My favorite definition of unschooling comes from here: http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/unschooling/unschoolingphilosophy.html
"The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child be who she is and blossom into who she will become. Learning happens as a side effect."
Schuyler
www.wayforth.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: ditwidget@...
We have implemented many Montessori materials/presentations
in our classroom as well as the hands on daily activities of life in
our home and
outside.
-=-=-=
It will help if you don't look at your life/home as even *having* a
classroom.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I was raised in a home where everyone screamed and fought a lot. I
choose to have a gentler life now.
I want that for my children and husband, too. I feel that can be
accomplished. I
believe it to be by way of my homeschooling approach which is a HUGE
factor in our lives.
-=-=-=-=
Have you read Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life?
-=-=-=-=-=-
I am much nicer than this post sounds (after re-reading it!). I have
my
defenses up because I've "bumped into" a few unschoolers who have
strong opinions about
their approach to teaching as though any other style is of Satan! LOL!
I feel a bit
safer "talking" about it here.
-=-=-=-
Well, you won't run into a bunch of unschoolers who have much stronger
opinions than in *this* group! <bwg>
But we try to be gentle. <g>
-=-=-=-=--
I'm hoping someone here has a definition of what unschooling is as well
as how
to fill out the proper paperwork for the school district, if your not
sitting down teaching
geometry???
-=-=-=-=-=-
There is no ONE "definition" of unschooling. John Holt died before the
movement he started really got off the ground. Literally, it's NOT
schooling. But through Holt's writings, you can see how he'd observed
children to be learning MACHINES! By the time of his death, he was a
full-blown advocate of children's rights.
As for reporting to the state, you're in an icky state. NY. But there
are some long-time unschoolers who know the law and can tell you how to
work with the system. Google around NY: Marla, Joy, Liza, and Anne have
been unschooling for several years with no problems.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: ditwidget@...
We have implemented many Montessori materials/presentations
in our classroom as well as the hands on daily activities of life in
our home and
outside.
-=-=-=
It will help if you don't look at your life/home as even *having* a
classroom.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I was raised in a home where everyone screamed and fought a lot. I
choose to have a gentler life now.
I want that for my children and husband, too. I feel that can be
accomplished. I
believe it to be by way of my homeschooling approach which is a HUGE
factor in our lives.
-=-=-=-=
Have you read Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life?
-=-=-=-=-=-
I am much nicer than this post sounds (after re-reading it!). I have
my
defenses up because I've "bumped into" a few unschoolers who have
strong opinions about
their approach to teaching as though any other style is of Satan! LOL!
I feel a bit
safer "talking" about it here.
-=-=-=-
Well, you won't run into a bunch of unschoolers who have much stronger
opinions than in *this* group! <bwg>
But we try to be gentle. <g>
-=-=-=-=--
I'm hoping someone here has a definition of what unschooling is as well
as how
to fill out the proper paperwork for the school district, if your not
sitting down teaching
geometry???
-=-=-=-=-=-
There is no ONE "definition" of unschooling. John Holt died before the
movement he started really got off the ground. Literally, it's NOT
schooling. But through Holt's writings, you can see how he'd observed
children to be learning MACHINES! By the time of his death, he was a
full-blown advocate of children's rights.
As for reporting to the state, you're in an icky state. NY. But there
are some long-time unschoolers who know the law and can tell you how to
work with the system. Google around NY: Marla, Joy, Liza, and Anne have
been unschooling for several years with no problems.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Deb Lewis
***I would like to find out more about unschooling without reading another
book! (smiles!) ***
I know you're teasing us a little, I could tell by the smile, but the more
willing you are to help yourself the more quickly you'll gain the
information you want. I think unschooling lists are a great source of
information, really wonderful for getting answers to questions in a
relatively short time. But reading wherever you can, books included will
help you that much faster. Maybe you meant you've read them all!
*** I am looking for ways to teach my children by learning about who
they are. ***
The first unschooling thing you could do would be to stop thinking of
teaching. Imagine yourself their loving outfitter for this long adventure.
Be a help to them, be their guide, do things for them and with them and give
them lots of opportunities to do what they want. Don't think about
teaching.
Your children will be changing every day. If you focus on who they are
today then tomorrow you'll have to find out all over again. Focus on what
they love to do, on what makes them happy and then help them do as much of
that as they want. If they like to play outside, then play outside. If
they like to build forts then build forts. If they like to do six different
things at once, then get to it! <g> You will learn so much about your kids
by letting yourself enjoy their happiness. When you know what delights
them you can be looking for all kinds of things to add to their lives and to
their play that will make their world bigger and more interesting. And
remember, every moment they're alive, they're learning.
***I need help though. We have implemented many Montessori
materials/presentations
in our classroom as well as the hands on daily activities of life in our
home and
outside.***
In your mind and in your home, turn your "classroom" into the family room,
or the play room, or the junk room. Get rid of the classroom. Nobody needs
it. Learning takes place everywhere, in the big wide world, in the bathtub,
in the yard, and in the little corners of a cozy home where kids are free
to play and explore.
***I was raised in a home where everyone screamed and fought a lot. I choose
to have a gentler life now. ***
And you've already made the world a better place by ending the pattern of
screaming and anger. Good for you.
***I've "bumped into" a few unschoolers who have strong opinions about
their approach to teaching as though any other style is of Satan! ***
You didn't bump into unschoolers if they were talking about "teaching."
And I'm an atheist, so nothing is from satan, though there are plenty of
people out there who won't or don't think very much or very hard about what
they're doing and why.
My strong opinion<g> is that anyone who is thinking of unschooling should do
the work to find out about unschooling. Anyone thinking of unschooling
should know why they think it's the best choice for them. Anyone
unschooling should be doing it because it makes sense and is good for their
kids.
I know of people who've said, "unschooling isn't better than any other
method of homeschooling." Then, I want to know why they're doing it! If
they don't think it's better or if they think something else IS better, why
did they settle for second best for their kids? So my other strong opinion
is that you have to have the balls to know what's good and right, and then
to Do it, and then not be a pansy about it. <g>
***I'm hoping someone here has a definition of what unschooling is ***
Live like you never heard of school. Live like no one is a teacher and no
one is a student. Live like you're all on an long vacation together. Do
what your children love to do.
Deb Lewis
book! (smiles!) ***
I know you're teasing us a little, I could tell by the smile, but the more
willing you are to help yourself the more quickly you'll gain the
information you want. I think unschooling lists are a great source of
information, really wonderful for getting answers to questions in a
relatively short time. But reading wherever you can, books included will
help you that much faster. Maybe you meant you've read them all!
*** I am looking for ways to teach my children by learning about who
they are. ***
The first unschooling thing you could do would be to stop thinking of
teaching. Imagine yourself their loving outfitter for this long adventure.
Be a help to them, be their guide, do things for them and with them and give
them lots of opportunities to do what they want. Don't think about
teaching.
Your children will be changing every day. If you focus on who they are
today then tomorrow you'll have to find out all over again. Focus on what
they love to do, on what makes them happy and then help them do as much of
that as they want. If they like to play outside, then play outside. If
they like to build forts then build forts. If they like to do six different
things at once, then get to it! <g> You will learn so much about your kids
by letting yourself enjoy their happiness. When you know what delights
them you can be looking for all kinds of things to add to their lives and to
their play that will make their world bigger and more interesting. And
remember, every moment they're alive, they're learning.
***I need help though. We have implemented many Montessori
materials/presentations
in our classroom as well as the hands on daily activities of life in our
home and
outside.***
In your mind and in your home, turn your "classroom" into the family room,
or the play room, or the junk room. Get rid of the classroom. Nobody needs
it. Learning takes place everywhere, in the big wide world, in the bathtub,
in the yard, and in the little corners of a cozy home where kids are free
to play and explore.
***I was raised in a home where everyone screamed and fought a lot. I choose
to have a gentler life now. ***
And you've already made the world a better place by ending the pattern of
screaming and anger. Good for you.
***I've "bumped into" a few unschoolers who have strong opinions about
their approach to teaching as though any other style is of Satan! ***
You didn't bump into unschoolers if they were talking about "teaching."
And I'm an atheist, so nothing is from satan, though there are plenty of
people out there who won't or don't think very much or very hard about what
they're doing and why.
My strong opinion<g> is that anyone who is thinking of unschooling should do
the work to find out about unschooling. Anyone thinking of unschooling
should know why they think it's the best choice for them. Anyone
unschooling should be doing it because it makes sense and is good for their
kids.
I know of people who've said, "unschooling isn't better than any other
method of homeschooling." Then, I want to know why they're doing it! If
they don't think it's better or if they think something else IS better, why
did they settle for second best for their kids? So my other strong opinion
is that you have to have the balls to know what's good and right, and then
to Do it, and then not be a pansy about it. <g>
***I'm hoping someone here has a definition of what unschooling is ***
Live like you never heard of school. Live like no one is a teacher and no
one is a student. Live like you're all on an long vacation together. Do
what your children love to do.
Deb Lewis
Schuyler
Sorry about the weird formatting. I've been getting my yahoo groups in the new and improved formatting and it makes inserting things difficult. I've put the original comments in quotes with indentation, my responses are just normal. I am also sending this a second time as it hasn't come through yet. So, sorry if it turns into a double post.
"I would like to find out more about unschooling without reading another book! (smiles!) "
There are a lot of great websites that aren't books, although they are impressive tomes. Joyce's site http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/ is an amazing place, beautifully linear. And Sandra Dodd's site http://sandradodd.com/unschooling is just a labryinth of interconnected pages and ideas, with golden cords to help you find your way through all the while.
"Currently I'm looking at The Unschooling Handbook. I find this style to be much freer than the way I was taught."
Unschooling is likely to be much freer than the way any of us were taught. Unschooling isn't a teaching method, though. It is an approach to education that is about putting aside teaching so that learning can occur. Teaching makes a presumption of a student and an instructor. Unschooling starts with the notion that everyone is a learner and that every situation offers its own learning experience, depending on how you approach it, or how you walk away from it.
"I am looking for ways to teach my children by learning about who they are. "
I would start by putting away the notion of teaching your children. Even when there are things they are learning from you, it is much more helpful to think of yourself as their partner than as their instructor. http://sandradodd.com/wordswords is an essay on why using the word teach may be a stumbling block in your understanding of unschooling. What follows is a quote from that essay:
If I want to teach someone how to use quotation marks, I can talk, show them, make jokes, draw stick figures with speech-balloons, and I could maybe sing songs about it. So IF the person who's in the room "being taught" is thinking about how to file down that one piece of a machine gun that can turn a legal semi-automatic into an illegal automatic, and how to hide that part really well, disguised as something altogether different, what am I doing?
I'm talking, writing, drawing, dancing, and singing. But I'm not teaching. I'm reviewing for myself something I already know. I'm just performing a play of sorts, without any audience. I'm playing with myself. I'm ...well, you know.
So if I'm reading a magazine about machine guns and someone comes and says, "How do I punctuate a quote within a quote?" I can show them. If they don't totally understand, I can draw pictures or give other examples. When I perceive that they have learned the thing they wanted to learn, I should shush up and go back to my magazine, because the action is completed. .
They learned. I helped them learn. I was "the teacher" but I didn't do the work that resulted in learning. The learner did that in his own head. I could put ideas in the air, but only he could hear and process and ask more questions. Without his active work, no teaching can possibly take place.
"I do not make homemade bread, nor do I have an organic garden. And I've occasionally thrown plastic in the garbage. "
There are many people out there who make homemade bread and garden organically and have small holdings with free range chickens and live in a home they built that runs on solar power who, also, happily bid their children farewell ever morning and greet them with a smile every afternoon when they return from school. The two things are not entertwined. And it has been my experience that many of those people who are rigorous about how their food is raised are much more likely to limit their own children's choice of food.
" I have my defenses up because I've "bumped into" a few unschoolers who have strong opinions about their approach to teaching as though any other style is of Satan!"
It is easy to be passionate about unschooling. And it is easy for that passion to come across as intolerance. When you have chosen to allow your children to craft their own lives with your help and to support them in whatever interests them, it is hard to watch other people squash their children into whatever box they feel is the best and most appropriate box to view the rest of the world from. There is a real sense that childhood is short and that every day that you spend traditionally parenting is a day that you've spent not working to create the best relationship possible with your child. And, I suppose, with that in mind, prostelytizing might become a part of an unschoolers approach to the world.
"I'm hoping someone here has a definition of what unschooling is"
My favorite definition of unschooling comes from here: http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/unschooling/unschoolingphilosophy.html
"The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child be who she is and blossom into who she will become. Learning happens as a side effect."
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"I would like to find out more about unschooling without reading another book! (smiles!) "
There are a lot of great websites that aren't books, although they are impressive tomes. Joyce's site http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/ is an amazing place, beautifully linear. And Sandra Dodd's site http://sandradodd.com/unschooling is just a labryinth of interconnected pages and ideas, with golden cords to help you find your way through all the while.
"Currently I'm looking at The Unschooling Handbook. I find this style to be much freer than the way I was taught."
Unschooling is likely to be much freer than the way any of us were taught. Unschooling isn't a teaching method, though. It is an approach to education that is about putting aside teaching so that learning can occur. Teaching makes a presumption of a student and an instructor. Unschooling starts with the notion that everyone is a learner and that every situation offers its own learning experience, depending on how you approach it, or how you walk away from it.
"I am looking for ways to teach my children by learning about who they are. "
I would start by putting away the notion of teaching your children. Even when there are things they are learning from you, it is much more helpful to think of yourself as their partner than as their instructor. http://sandradodd.com/wordswords is an essay on why using the word teach may be a stumbling block in your understanding of unschooling. What follows is a quote from that essay:
If I want to teach someone how to use quotation marks, I can talk, show them, make jokes, draw stick figures with speech-balloons, and I could maybe sing songs about it. So IF the person who's in the room "being taught" is thinking about how to file down that one piece of a machine gun that can turn a legal semi-automatic into an illegal automatic, and how to hide that part really well, disguised as something altogether different, what am I doing?
I'm talking, writing, drawing, dancing, and singing. But I'm not teaching. I'm reviewing for myself something I already know. I'm just performing a play of sorts, without any audience. I'm playing with myself. I'm ...well, you know.
So if I'm reading a magazine about machine guns and someone comes and says, "How do I punctuate a quote within a quote?" I can show them. If they don't totally understand, I can draw pictures or give other examples. When I perceive that they have learned the thing they wanted to learn, I should shush up and go back to my magazine, because the action is completed. .
They learned. I helped them learn. I was "the teacher" but I didn't do the work that resulted in learning. The learner did that in his own head. I could put ideas in the air, but only he could hear and process and ask more questions. Without his active work, no teaching can possibly take place.
"I do not make homemade bread, nor do I have an organic garden. And I've occasionally thrown plastic in the garbage. "
There are many people out there who make homemade bread and garden organically and have small holdings with free range chickens and live in a home they built that runs on solar power who, also, happily bid their children farewell ever morning and greet them with a smile every afternoon when they return from school. The two things are not entertwined. And it has been my experience that many of those people who are rigorous about how their food is raised are much more likely to limit their own children's choice of food.
" I have my defenses up because I've "bumped into" a few unschoolers who have strong opinions about their approach to teaching as though any other style is of Satan!"
It is easy to be passionate about unschooling. And it is easy for that passion to come across as intolerance. When you have chosen to allow your children to craft their own lives with your help and to support them in whatever interests them, it is hard to watch other people squash their children into whatever box they feel is the best and most appropriate box to view the rest of the world from. There is a real sense that childhood is short and that every day that you spend traditionally parenting is a day that you've spent not working to create the best relationship possible with your child. And, I suppose, with that in mind, prostelytizing might become a part of an unschoolers approach to the world.
"I'm hoping someone here has a definition of what unschooling is"
My favorite definition of unschooling comes from here: http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/unschooling/unschoolingphilosophy.html
"The goal of unschooling is not education. It is to help a child be who she is and blossom into who she will become. Learning happens as a side effect."
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tracy
I do know some unschoolers
living
in suburban tract homes! (Is "tract" the right word, or is it
track?....ah
well).
Leslie...you talkin' about me <g>
are you sayiing I live on the "wrong" side of the unschooling track.
Just had to be a smartie pants ;-)
Peace~Love~Free~ Tracy
living
in suburban tract homes! (Is "tract" the right word, or is it
track?....ah
well).
Leslie...you talkin' about me <g>
are you sayiing I live on the "wrong" side of the unschooling track.
Just had to be a smartie pants ;-)
Peace~Love~Free~ Tracy
--- In [email protected], Leslie530@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 11/17/2006 9:25:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> ditwidget@... writes:
>
> I do not make homemade bread, nor do I have an organic garden.
And I've
> occasionally
> thrown plastic in the garbage. However, my children are loved and
involved
> in every
> aspect of our life...cooking, cleaning, recreation, reading,
music.
>
>
> *****
> Kolein, this cracked me up! :)
>
> I don't have time to comment on the rest right now, but just
wanted to
> assure you that we are not all super crunchy. I do know some
unschoolers living
> in suburban tract homes! (Is "tract" the right word, or is it
track?....ah
> well).
>
> Welcome.
>
> ~Leslie in SC, off to Bed Bath and Beyond for Christmas
> shopping.....definitely *not* making my own gifts this year
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
velvette1216
Leslie, cracking you up cracked me up! How was BBB? I'll be there tomorrow! (no kidding!)
Hysterically laughing,
Kolein
Hysterically laughing,
Kolein
--- In [email protected], Leslie530@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 11/17/2006 9:25:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> ditwidget@... writes:
>
> I do not make homemade bread, nor do I have an organic garden. And I've
> occasionally
> thrown plastic in the garbage. However, my children are loved and involved
> in every
> aspect of our life...cooking, cleaning, recreation, reading, music.
>
>
> *****
> Kolein, this cracked me up! :)
>
> I don't have time to comment on the rest right now, but just wanted to
> assure you that we are not all super crunchy. I do know some unschoolers living
> in suburban tract homes! (Is "tract" the right word, or is it track?....ah
> well).
>
> Welcome.
>
> ~Leslie in SC, off to Bed Bath and Beyond for Christmas
> shopping.....definitely *not* making my own gifts this year
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Ren Allen
"I do know some unschoolers
living in suburban tract homes! "
I think we'd pretty much qualify as this! We're in a house that is
next to houses that look almost exactly like it, lotsa newer houses
all split level. BUT, we have about 3/4 of an acre and cow fields
across the street. Suburbia meets rural.:)
So I get to explore my crunchy side while still being somewhat close
to town. Consensual living means that 1/2 of my family doesn't get 10
acres in the country and the other half doesn't get city living.
Compromise leaves us in the middle somewhere.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
living in suburban tract homes! "
I think we'd pretty much qualify as this! We're in a house that is
next to houses that look almost exactly like it, lotsa newer houses
all split level. BUT, we have about 3/4 of an acre and cow fields
across the street. Suburbia meets rural.:)
So I get to explore my crunchy side while still being somewhat close
to town. Consensual living means that 1/2 of my family doesn't get 10
acres in the country and the other half doesn't get city living.
Compromise leaves us in the middle somewhere.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
wuweimama
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
something. Consensual Living doesn't include compromise. It involves
finding mutually agreed upon solutions, where the needs of both
parties are not only considered but addressed. Creating solutions
which are preferable and agreeable to all parties is a win/win.
Everyone is welcome to check out the Consensual Living website or
yahoogroup, if anyone wishes to explore these ideas further.
http://www.consensual-living.com/
Pat
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>10> acres in the country and the other half doesn't get city living.
> So I get to explore my crunchy side while still being somewhat close
> to town. Consensual living means that 1/2 of my family doesn't get
> Compromise leaves us in the middle somewhere.***Compromise usually means that one (or both) parties give up
>
something. Consensual Living doesn't include compromise. It involves
finding mutually agreed upon solutions, where the needs of both
parties are not only considered but addressed. Creating solutions
which are preferable and agreeable to all parties is a win/win.
Everyone is welcome to check out the Consensual Living website or
yahoogroup, if anyone wishes to explore these ideas further.
http://www.consensual-living.com/
Pat
[email protected]
I do know some unschoolers
living
in suburban tract homes! (Is "tract" the right word, or is it
track?....ah
well).
Leslie...you talkin' about me <g>
are you sayiing I live on the "wrong" side of the unschooling track.
Just had to be a smartie pants ;-)
Peace~Love~Free~ Tracy
***************
Yes, I WAS talkin' about you. But there are others. Should there be some
sort of secret society of suburban unschoolers??? Soccer Moms Unite for
Unschooling. SMUU. :)
And I would live in suburbia if this backwards town I live in actually had
an "urban" component. No such luck. Had to drive 25 miles to get to Bed Bath
and Beyond yesterday.
Leslie (currently, waiting for orders) in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
living
in suburban tract homes! (Is "tract" the right word, or is it
track?....ah
well).
Leslie...you talkin' about me <g>
are you sayiing I live on the "wrong" side of the unschooling track.
Just had to be a smartie pants ;-)
Peace~Love~Free~ Tracy
***************
Yes, I WAS talkin' about you. But there are others. Should there be some
sort of secret society of suburban unschoolers??? Soccer Moms Unite for
Unschooling. SMUU. :)
And I would live in suburbia if this backwards town I live in actually had
an "urban" component. No such luck. Had to drive 25 miles to get to Bed Bath
and Beyond yesterday.
Leslie (currently, waiting for orders) in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Leslie, cracking you up cracked me up! How was BBB? I'll be there tomorrow!
(no kidding!)
Hysterically laughing,
Kolein
********
Kolein, glad to help you feel better.
BBB was fine. Did the shopping that needed to be done. My daughter tried
to climb on every single funny little bed and my son pushed every "Try Me!"
button on all the electronic Christmas things. Got several "shouldn't they be
in school" sneers.
Was glad to get home. :)
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(no kidding!)
Hysterically laughing,
Kolein
********
Kolein, glad to help you feel better.
BBB was fine. Did the shopping that needed to be done. My daughter tried
to climb on every single funny little bed and my son pushed every "Try Me!"
button on all the electronic Christmas things. Got several "shouldn't they be
in school" sneers.
Was glad to get home. :)
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Creating solutions
which are preferable and agreeable to all parties is a win/win.~~
That's exactly what we did.
I'd love to hear how compromise never enters the picture with
consensual living.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
which are preferable and agreeable to all parties is a win/win.~~
That's exactly what we did.
I'd love to hear how compromise never enters the picture with
consensual living.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~
***Compromise usually means that one (or both) parties give up
something. Consensual Living doesn't include compromise. ~~
See, this is my problem with "consensual living". It's getting into
semantics to me because finding a "mutually agreeable solution" means
COMPROMISE in my book. Same thing.
I wouldn't want my dh and two boys to be unhappy living out of town on
a 10 acre plot in order to help me be content. And they don't want me
being miserable living in town. So we find a place that has a little
bit of both components so we're all a bit closer to what we want
separately.
To me that IS compromise and/or finding a "mutually agreeable solution".
Totally the same thing in my book. I DO have to give up my "ideal"
home, but that's much more desirable than living with two kids and a
dh that aren't thrilled with the choice, because I love them more than
my idea of a mini-farm. I don't see compromise as a dirty word. A
"mutually agreeable soluation" is exactly what we've got.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
***Compromise usually means that one (or both) parties give up
something. Consensual Living doesn't include compromise. ~~
See, this is my problem with "consensual living". It's getting into
semantics to me because finding a "mutually agreeable solution" means
COMPROMISE in my book. Same thing.
I wouldn't want my dh and two boys to be unhappy living out of town on
a 10 acre plot in order to help me be content. And they don't want me
being miserable living in town. So we find a place that has a little
bit of both components so we're all a bit closer to what we want
separately.
To me that IS compromise and/or finding a "mutually agreeable solution".
Totally the same thing in my book. I DO have to give up my "ideal"
home, but that's much more desirable than living with two kids and a
dh that aren't thrilled with the choice, because I love them more than
my idea of a mini-farm. I don't see compromise as a dirty word. A
"mutually agreeable soluation" is exactly what we've got.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
velvette1216
Ren,
That is beautiful and very inspiring! Ditto for me. Thank you. Kolein
That is beautiful and very inspiring! Ditto for me. Thank you. Kolein
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~
> ***Compromise usually means that one (or both) parties give up
> something. Consensual Living doesn't include compromise. ~~
>
> See, this is my problem with "consensual living". It's getting into
> semantics to me because finding a "mutually agreeable solution" means
> COMPROMISE in my book. Same thing.
>
> I wouldn't want my dh and two boys to be unhappy living out of town on
> a 10 acre plot in order to help me be content. And they don't want me
> being miserable living in town. So we find a place that has a little
> bit of both components so we're all a bit closer to what we want
> separately.
>
> To me that IS compromise and/or finding a "mutually agreeable solution".
> Totally the same thing in my book. I DO have to give up my "ideal"
> home, but that's much more desirable than living with two kids and a
> dh that aren't thrilled with the choice, because I love them more than
> my idea of a mini-farm. I don't see compromise as a dirty word. A
> "mutually agreeable soluation" is exactly what we've got.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
Michelle Leifur Reid
On 11/18/06, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
living together, even consensually. It's how we exist with all our
idiosyncracies and still respect each other. :-) I find it difficult
to find a "consensual" solution to many problems without someone
compromising unless everyone is in agreement (which is rare in a
household with 2-3 adults and 3-5 children) but we work together to
find a solution that will work for most of the people's wants, needs
and desires. Sometimes we have to compromise to get as close as we
can to our perfect goal while still respecting other people's wants,
needs and desires. And I would prefer to compromise than to be in a
stalemate with no solution because we can't come to a consensual
solution!
Michelle
> ~~I agree! I think that compromise is an important part of people
> ***Compromise usually means that one (or both) parties give up
> something. Consensual Living doesn't include compromise. ~~
>
> See, this is my problem with "consensual living". It's getting into
> semantics to me because finding a "mutually agreeable solution" means
> COMPROMISE in my book. Same thing.
>
living together, even consensually. It's how we exist with all our
idiosyncracies and still respect each other. :-) I find it difficult
to find a "consensual" solution to many problems without someone
compromising unless everyone is in agreement (which is rare in a
household with 2-3 adults and 3-5 children) but we work together to
find a solution that will work for most of the people's wants, needs
and desires. Sometimes we have to compromise to get as close as we
can to our perfect goal while still respecting other people's wants,
needs and desires. And I would prefer to compromise than to be in a
stalemate with no solution because we can't come to a consensual
solution!
Michelle
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: pamperedmichelle@...
And I would prefer to compromise than to be in a
stalemate with no solution because we can't come to a consensual
solution!
-=-=-=-=-
I'm sure Pam or Pat will come by with the difference between the two.
I think a lot of it---like unschooling---is the *intent* and the
mindset.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: pamperedmichelle@...
And I would prefer to compromise than to be in a
stalemate with no solution because we can't come to a consensual
solution!
-=-=-=-=-
I'm sure Pam or Pat will come by with the difference between the two.
I think a lot of it---like unschooling---is the *intent* and the
mindset.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Lesa
Yes, Ren, I agree.
Lesa M.
My Blog: http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
My eBay Store: http://store.auctiva.com/lesajm
-------Original Message-------
From: Ren Allen
Date: 11/18/06 19:50:48
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling? Huh?
~~
***Compromise usually means that one (or both) parties give up
something. Consensual Living doesn't include compromise. ~~
See, this is my problem with "consensual living". It's getting into
semantics to me because finding a "mutually agreeable solution" means
COMPROMISE in my book. Same thing.
I wouldn't want my dh and two boys to be unhappy living out of town on
a 10 acre plot in order to help me be content. And they don't want me
being miserable living in town. So we find a place that has a little
bit of both components so we're all a bit closer to what we want
separately.
To me that IS compromise and/or finding a "mutually agreeable solution".
Totally the same thing in my book. I DO have to give up my "ideal"
home, but that's much more desirable than living with two kids and a
dh that aren't thrilled with the choice, because I love them more than
my idea of a mini-farm. I don't see compromise as a dirty word. A
"mutually agreeable soluation" is exactly what we've got.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lesa M.
My Blog: http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
My eBay Store: http://store.auctiva.com/lesajm
-------Original Message-------
From: Ren Allen
Date: 11/18/06 19:50:48
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling? Huh?
~~
***Compromise usually means that one (or both) parties give up
something. Consensual Living doesn't include compromise. ~~
See, this is my problem with "consensual living". It's getting into
semantics to me because finding a "mutually agreeable solution" means
COMPROMISE in my book. Same thing.
I wouldn't want my dh and two boys to be unhappy living out of town on
a 10 acre plot in order to help me be content. And they don't want me
being miserable living in town. So we find a place that has a little
bit of both components so we're all a bit closer to what we want
separately.
To me that IS compromise and/or finding a "mutually agreeable solution".
Totally the same thing in my book. I DO have to give up my "ideal"
home, but that's much more desirable than living with two kids and a
dh that aren't thrilled with the choice, because I love them more than
my idea of a mini-farm. I don't see compromise as a dirty word. A
"mutually agreeable soluation" is exactly what we've got.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
I'm with ya, Ren. I don't think compromise is a bad word. Sometimes when I read about consensual living it sounds like the solution comes only after one person 'consents' to want what the others want -- or to give the others what they want. I know it wouldn't take long for me to resent always consenting to the other person's preference. In compromise, each person gives a little -- not in sacrifice to the other's whims, but from a genuine desire to see everyone have some joy. So it's not a bad thing, but a choice.
My other question about CL is what about those times when consent just isn't possible, or can't be waited for?
Sylvia
Mom to
Will (21) Andy (10) and Dan (5-1/2)
www.ourhapahome.blogspot.com
Life is what happens while youre busy making other plans. ~ John Lennon
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link
Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro-*Terms
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My other question about CL is what about those times when consent just isn't possible, or can't be waited for?
Sylvia
Mom to
Will (21) Andy (10) and Dan (5-1/2)
www.ourhapahome.blogspot.com
Life is what happens while youre busy making other plans. ~ John Lennon
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link
Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro-*Terms
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~I'm with ya, Ren. I don't think compromise is a bad word. Sometimes
when I read about consensual living it sounds like the solution comes
only after one person 'consents' to want what the others want -- or to
give the others what they want. ~~
I think they try to avoid anyone consenting to the whole. BUT, what I
think is amusing, is HOW do you get to a mutually agreeable solution?
What are the steps to forming a new and different choice than the two
original choices that weren't working? I see compromise as the PROCESS.
I live with five other individuals all with their own tastes,
preferences etc.... and we use negotiation and compromise as tools to
REACH mutually agreeable soluations.
Every member has equal weight (though sometimes not in the moment...a
sleeping person gets prioritiy over the person that wants to scream
and shout in the house) when we're using our negotiating and
compromise to find soluations. You will often hear me say "how can we
make this work for everyone?"
There are moments where I DO try to persuade people of a different
choice also, which it sounds to me like consensual living is against.
Last week, when we were at the park for our homeschool meetup I had
two children that wanted to stay and swing after everyone else was
exhausted and already in the car wanting to go home NOW.
I swung them for a while, after explaining to my other boys, we talked
about how they were waiting and we needed to go soon but after I got
back to the car again Jalen protested loudly that he needed to swing
more. The boys weren't thrilled. At that point I explained how
important that physical motion was for him, and that they were sitting
in a comfortable car with a radio and could they please give me some
more time to swing him? We did so again and I finally was able to
convince Jalen how hungry and tired they were. But without explaining
to him several times, he would have stayed for another hour, leaving
them hungry, tired and upset.
There are times I push for a certain forward momentum because I know
and understand where everyone is at. It's not totally "consensual" but
I guess that isn't my ideal anyway.
I think negoatiation and compromise are really useful tools in this
world. I see my kids using them with their friends in a very healthy
manner. Maybe "consensual" isn't my goal after all. Peaceful, joyful
and healthy family is.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
when I read about consensual living it sounds like the solution comes
only after one person 'consents' to want what the others want -- or to
give the others what they want. ~~
I think they try to avoid anyone consenting to the whole. BUT, what I
think is amusing, is HOW do you get to a mutually agreeable solution?
What are the steps to forming a new and different choice than the two
original choices that weren't working? I see compromise as the PROCESS.
I live with five other individuals all with their own tastes,
preferences etc.... and we use negotiation and compromise as tools to
REACH mutually agreeable soluations.
Every member has equal weight (though sometimes not in the moment...a
sleeping person gets prioritiy over the person that wants to scream
and shout in the house) when we're using our negotiating and
compromise to find soluations. You will often hear me say "how can we
make this work for everyone?"
There are moments where I DO try to persuade people of a different
choice also, which it sounds to me like consensual living is against.
Last week, when we were at the park for our homeschool meetup I had
two children that wanted to stay and swing after everyone else was
exhausted and already in the car wanting to go home NOW.
I swung them for a while, after explaining to my other boys, we talked
about how they were waiting and we needed to go soon but after I got
back to the car again Jalen protested loudly that he needed to swing
more. The boys weren't thrilled. At that point I explained how
important that physical motion was for him, and that they were sitting
in a comfortable car with a radio and could they please give me some
more time to swing him? We did so again and I finally was able to
convince Jalen how hungry and tired they were. But without explaining
to him several times, he would have stayed for another hour, leaving
them hungry, tired and upset.
There are times I push for a certain forward momentum because I know
and understand where everyone is at. It's not totally "consensual" but
I guess that isn't my ideal anyway.
I think negoatiation and compromise are really useful tools in this
world. I see my kids using them with their friends in a very healthy
manner. Maybe "consensual" isn't my goal after all. Peaceful, joyful
and healthy family is.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
And why am I spelling solutions with an "a" in there half the time???
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
wuweimama
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
***Consensual Living is the process of seeking a solution which is
preferable to all parties. Mutually agreeable solutions are most
easily found when we don't embrace compromise in our home. When we are
all discussing how TO meet needs, rather than focusing on whose needs
must be *given up*, it is easier to find solutions that are agreeable
to everyone, ime. There isn't a sense of defending *my* needs, in the
process. We can spend our energy on creating solutions which address
ALL needs.
Ren:
me> being miserable living in town. So we find a place that has a
little> bit of both components so we're all a bit closer to what we
want> separately.
Pat:
***This is where the process of identifying, clarifying and exploring
the underlying needs is most relevant. Then these needs CAN be met,
without being "given up" in the ultimate solutions.
Ren:
"ideal"> home, but that's much more desirable than living with two
kids and a> dh that aren't thrilled with the choice, because I love
them more than> my idea of a mini-farm. I don't see compromise as a
dirty word. A> "mutually agreeable soluation" is exactly what we've got.
Pat:
***I am not suggesting that your solutions weren't mutually agreeable.
You are reporting that it was. I am thrilled. However, the process of
creating mutually agreeable solutions is much easier, ime, if we don't
expect to *give up* something. Instead, we all trust that what we need
will be addressed in the solution that we create together. We focus on
"I need and you need", rather than "what can I give up and what can
you give up". The first creates a solution which meets the needs, the
second is accepting a 'middle ground' that doesn't necessarily meet
anyone's needs, but is "agreeable". The other key, is who is to decide
what the 'middle ground' is? In our home, the decision resides with
everyone coming to agreement that their needs are addressed, not that
everyone is giving up something and living with it.
It feels much different than compromise, which has the connotation of
sacrifice and unmet desires/wants/needs. And in my experience, unmet
need continue to exist are expressed in louder and bolder and more
extreme behaviors in order to be addressed. The unrest about the
unmet need festers and can lead to resentment or expressed frustration.
Pat
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>Pat:
> ***Compromise usually means that one (or both) parties give upRen:
> something. Consensual Living doesn't include compromise. ~~
> See, this is my problem with "consensual living". It's getting intomeans> COMPROMISE in my book. Same thing.
> semantics to me because finding a "mutually agreeable solution"
***Consensual Living is the process of seeking a solution which is
preferable to all parties. Mutually agreeable solutions are most
easily found when we don't embrace compromise in our home. When we are
all discussing how TO meet needs, rather than focusing on whose needs
must be *given up*, it is easier to find solutions that are agreeable
to everyone, ime. There isn't a sense of defending *my* needs, in the
process. We can spend our energy on creating solutions which address
ALL needs.
Ren:
> I wouldn't want my dh and two boys to be unhappy living out of townon> a 10 acre plot in order to help me be content. And they don't want
me> being miserable living in town. So we find a place that has a
little> bit of both components so we're all a bit closer to what we
want> separately.
Pat:
***This is where the process of identifying, clarifying and exploring
the underlying needs is most relevant. Then these needs CAN be met,
without being "given up" in the ultimate solutions.
Ren:
> To me that IS compromise and/or finding a "mutually agreeablesolution".> Totally the same thing in my book. I DO have to give up my
"ideal"> home, but that's much more desirable than living with two
kids and a> dh that aren't thrilled with the choice, because I love
them more than> my idea of a mini-farm. I don't see compromise as a
dirty word. A> "mutually agreeable soluation" is exactly what we've got.
Pat:
***I am not suggesting that your solutions weren't mutually agreeable.
You are reporting that it was. I am thrilled. However, the process of
creating mutually agreeable solutions is much easier, ime, if we don't
expect to *give up* something. Instead, we all trust that what we need
will be addressed in the solution that we create together. We focus on
"I need and you need", rather than "what can I give up and what can
you give up". The first creates a solution which meets the needs, the
second is accepting a 'middle ground' that doesn't necessarily meet
anyone's needs, but is "agreeable". The other key, is who is to decide
what the 'middle ground' is? In our home, the decision resides with
everyone coming to agreement that their needs are addressed, not that
everyone is giving up something and living with it.
It feels much different than compromise, which has the connotation of
sacrifice and unmet desires/wants/needs. And in my experience, unmet
need continue to exist are expressed in louder and bolder and more
extreme behaviors in order to be addressed. The unrest about the
unmet need festers and can lead to resentment or expressed frustration.
Pat
wuweimama
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
for Consensual Living" on the CL website:
http://www.consensual-living.com/Essay3.htm
"The first step is to identify the underlying needs. Often there is a
stated need or desire. When in conflict, it helps to go deeper. It may
just be that the two stated needs are in conflict on the surface. When
you get to the underlying needs, typically there are several ways they
can be met. When you have the underlying needs on the table then new
alternative solutions are more apparent."
We had a similar situation related to moving, where compromise didn't
enter the picture. We lived in the city before ds was born; around 18
months, it became harder because of our close proximity to a busy
street. I wanted more land outside the city. Dh didn't want to move
outside the city. It seemed that our stated needs were in conflict on
the surface. But when we discussed our underlying needs, we found many
ways that they could be met.
For instance, I wanted land so that we'd have more space for animals,
and a garden, and room to roam and play in the woods. Dh didn't want
to increase his commute nor to spend more money, but wanted a larger
house. And, we both wanted a safer place for ds to play. So, our
solution was to find more land, on the edge of the city, close to dh's
work. We each did get our needs met, without compromising. No one gave
up anything in order to resolve the seeming conflict.
com·pro·mise (kŏm'prə-mīz') pronunciation
n.
1.
1. A settlement of differences in which each side makes
concessions.
2. The result of such a settlement.
2. Something that combines qualities or elements of different
things: The incongruous design is a compromise between high tech and
early American.
3. A concession to something detrimental or pejorative: a
compromise of morality.
http://www.answers.com/topic/compromise
***We found compromise detrimental to maximizing the success of
meeting all needs, because it starts with the belief that someone must
give up something to find an agreement. Instead, we trust that there
is a solution which meets the needs of all parties; and we *create* it
by looking at the underlying needs, not just the original strategies
for meeting the needs.
Pat
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>The following excerpt is from Anna Brown's article "Creating a Climate
> ~~Creating solutions
> which are preferable and agreeable to all parties is a win/win.~~
>
> That's exactly what we did.
> I'd love to hear how compromise never enters the picture with
> consensual living.
>
for Consensual Living" on the CL website:
http://www.consensual-living.com/Essay3.htm
"The first step is to identify the underlying needs. Often there is a
stated need or desire. When in conflict, it helps to go deeper. It may
just be that the two stated needs are in conflict on the surface. When
you get to the underlying needs, typically there are several ways they
can be met. When you have the underlying needs on the table then new
alternative solutions are more apparent."
We had a similar situation related to moving, where compromise didn't
enter the picture. We lived in the city before ds was born; around 18
months, it became harder because of our close proximity to a busy
street. I wanted more land outside the city. Dh didn't want to move
outside the city. It seemed that our stated needs were in conflict on
the surface. But when we discussed our underlying needs, we found many
ways that they could be met.
For instance, I wanted land so that we'd have more space for animals,
and a garden, and room to roam and play in the woods. Dh didn't want
to increase his commute nor to spend more money, but wanted a larger
house. And, we both wanted a safer place for ds to play. So, our
solution was to find more land, on the edge of the city, close to dh's
work. We each did get our needs met, without compromising. No one gave
up anything in order to resolve the seeming conflict.
com·pro·mise (kŏm'prə-mīz') pronunciation
n.
1.
1. A settlement of differences in which each side makes
concessions.
2. The result of such a settlement.
2. Something that combines qualities or elements of different
things: The incongruous design is a compromise between high tech and
early American.
3. A concession to something detrimental or pejorative: a
compromise of morality.
http://www.answers.com/topic/compromise
***We found compromise detrimental to maximizing the success of
meeting all needs, because it starts with the belief that someone must
give up something to find an agreement. Instead, we trust that there
is a solution which meets the needs of all parties; and we *create* it
by looking at the underlying needs, not just the original strategies
for meeting the needs.
Pat
wuweimama
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
meet the underlying needs changes the dynamic to Trust.
Pat
> I think a lot of it---like unschooling---is the *intent* and theYes! I find that having the mindset that solutions can be created that
> mindset.
>
meet the underlying needs changes the dynamic to Trust.
Pat
Sylvia Toyama
Consensual Living is the process of seeking a solution which is
preferable to all parties. Mutually agreeable solutions are most
easily found when we don't embrace compromise in our home. When we are
all discussing how TO meet needs, rather than focusing on whose needs
must be *given up*, it is easier to find solutions that are agreeable
to everyone, ime. There isn't a sense of defending *my* needs, in the
process. We can spend our energy on creating solutions which address
ALL needs.
*****
I gotta say, when I have to focus on how TO meet the needs of several people, it's going to feel like a compromise to me if I don't see ALL of my needs met -- and my kids would feel the same way, I'm sure. There are just some times when two people have needs that are mutually exclusive and there's no possible way to meet both needs. If both kids 'need' to sit in the same carseat spot on the same ride, for example (a huge issue at our house earlier this year). What then?
Another example -- last Friday, both boys 'needed' to use computer, and both 'needed' to do it NOW. We have only one computer, and only 30 minutes before the time we had to leave for the movie we all three agreed we wanted to see with friends. The movie start time was out of our control and non-negotiable. Each boy felt he needed to have all 30 minutes to use the computer. How is a consensual solution found?
We did reach a mutually agreeable compromise, but it was definitely a compromise on Andy's part - he agreed he could wait until we got home from the movie, tho it meant he missed what he'd planned to do early.
Sylvia
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
preferable to all parties. Mutually agreeable solutions are most
easily found when we don't embrace compromise in our home. When we are
all discussing how TO meet needs, rather than focusing on whose needs
must be *given up*, it is easier to find solutions that are agreeable
to everyone, ime. There isn't a sense of defending *my* needs, in the
process. We can spend our energy on creating solutions which address
ALL needs.
*****
I gotta say, when I have to focus on how TO meet the needs of several people, it's going to feel like a compromise to me if I don't see ALL of my needs met -- and my kids would feel the same way, I'm sure. There are just some times when two people have needs that are mutually exclusive and there's no possible way to meet both needs. If both kids 'need' to sit in the same carseat spot on the same ride, for example (a huge issue at our house earlier this year). What then?
Another example -- last Friday, both boys 'needed' to use computer, and both 'needed' to do it NOW. We have only one computer, and only 30 minutes before the time we had to leave for the movie we all three agreed we wanted to see with friends. The movie start time was out of our control and non-negotiable. Each boy felt he needed to have all 30 minutes to use the computer. How is a consensual solution found?
We did reach a mutually agreeable compromise, but it was definitely a compromise on Andy's part - he agreed he could wait until we got home from the movie, tho it meant he missed what he'd planned to do early.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
It feels much different than compromise, which has the connotation of
sacrifice and unmet desires/wants/ needs. And in my experience, unmet
need continue to exist are expressed in louder and bolder and more
extreme behaviors in order to be addressed. The unrest about the
unmet need festers and can lead to resentment or expressed frustration.
*****
It has that feeling for you -- if you see compromise as a negative thing. For me, anytime there are several needs to be met for several people, and some of them simply can't be, or don't get, met -- it's a compromise. To call it anything else is dishonest, in my opinion. I like the word compromise -- because it implies everyone will be working to please everyone else.
In my childhood, reaching a 'mutual agreement' so often meant giving up entirely to what made my Mom's life easier, that any use of the word mutual feels dishonest to me. Compromise is a much happier word for me. Maybe it just all about semantics and personal experience, but for me the word compromise is baggage-free and honest.
Sylvia
Mom to
Will (21) Andy (10) and Dan (5-1/2)
www.ourhapahome.blogspot.com
Life is what happens while youre busy making other plans. ~ John Lennon
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sacrifice and unmet desires/wants/ needs. And in my experience, unmet
need continue to exist are expressed in louder and bolder and more
extreme behaviors in order to be addressed. The unrest about the
unmet need festers and can lead to resentment or expressed frustration.
*****
It has that feeling for you -- if you see compromise as a negative thing. For me, anytime there are several needs to be met for several people, and some of them simply can't be, or don't get, met -- it's a compromise. To call it anything else is dishonest, in my opinion. I like the word compromise -- because it implies everyone will be working to please everyone else.
In my childhood, reaching a 'mutual agreement' so often meant giving up entirely to what made my Mom's life easier, that any use of the word mutual feels dishonest to me. Compromise is a much happier word for me. Maybe it just all about semantics and personal experience, but for me the word compromise is baggage-free and honest.
Sylvia
Mom to
Will (21) Andy (10) and Dan (5-1/2)
www.ourhapahome.blogspot.com
Life is what happens while youre busy making other plans. ~ John Lennon
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
For instance, I wanted land so that we'd have more space for animals,
and a garden, and room to roam and play in the woods. Dh didn't want
to increase his commute nor to spend more money, but wanted a larger
house. And, we both wanted a safer place for ds to play. So, our
solution was to find more land, on the edge of the city, close to dh's
work. We each did get our needs met, without compromising. No one gave
up anything in order to resolve the seeming conflict.
*****
But what if you had wanted to live in the country specifically outside the city because you hated the air quality and traffic noise; he wanted to live in the city to have a shorter commute? How would a house in either city or country not have been a compromise for someone? It worked in that case because your real desire wasn't to live in the country, but in a bigger lot on a quieter street -- not country vs. city.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and a garden, and room to roam and play in the woods. Dh didn't want
to increase his commute nor to spend more money, but wanted a larger
house. And, we both wanted a safer place for ds to play. So, our
solution was to find more land, on the edge of the city, close to dh's
work. We each did get our needs met, without compromising. No one gave
up anything in order to resolve the seeming conflict.
*****
But what if you had wanted to live in the country specifically outside the city because you hated the air quality and traffic noise; he wanted to live in the city to have a shorter commute? How would a house in either city or country not have been a compromise for someone? It worked in that case because your real desire wasn't to live in the country, but in a bigger lot on a quieter street -- not country vs. city.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new house payment
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~It feels much different than compromise, which has the connotation of
sacrifice and unmet desires/wants/needs.~~
I think it can, but I don't think giving up exactly what you want in
order to work out a mutually agreeable soluation is a bad thing. Maybe
that's where I differ with hardcore Consensual Living advocates.
In our home we constantly strive to meet everyone's underlying needs.
But there are times with 6 people that one person gives up something
in order to make things flow. Sometimes one persons needs are greater
than another person's (not as a rule, but in the MOMENT).
When dh has a migraine for example, his need for quiet and calm
overrides a persons needs for jumping, screaming or otherwise creating
loud noises in the house. Same for sleeping people. If I look at the
underlying need (to be loud, movement oriented) there are times I can
meet the need some other way, like going outside, a park etc...
At 11pm, when it's cold and dark and everyone is tired, then we need
to find some way to be quieter.
I find so many examples in our lives where we give and take, take and
give to keep the machine oiled so to speak. Times when the IDEAL of
consensual living collides with reality. Which makes it hard for me to
swallow as a whole.
Yes, we are constantly trying to be more creative, meet the underlying
needs etc....
The thing is, I think it's a GOOD skill to learn to give for others. I
think empathy is useful and necessary.....which involves giving up
your own want/desire occasionally. I can see where people do it in an
unhealthy way, but that's not something I would encourage.
I think service to others, giving and compromise are positive tools
when a person is whole, healthy, strong and able to care for
themselves. Underlying needs can be met in the long-term without
always getting exactly what you want in the moment.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
sacrifice and unmet desires/wants/needs.~~
I think it can, but I don't think giving up exactly what you want in
order to work out a mutually agreeable soluation is a bad thing. Maybe
that's where I differ with hardcore Consensual Living advocates.
In our home we constantly strive to meet everyone's underlying needs.
But there are times with 6 people that one person gives up something
in order to make things flow. Sometimes one persons needs are greater
than another person's (not as a rule, but in the MOMENT).
When dh has a migraine for example, his need for quiet and calm
overrides a persons needs for jumping, screaming or otherwise creating
loud noises in the house. Same for sleeping people. If I look at the
underlying need (to be loud, movement oriented) there are times I can
meet the need some other way, like going outside, a park etc...
At 11pm, when it's cold and dark and everyone is tired, then we need
to find some way to be quieter.
I find so many examples in our lives where we give and take, take and
give to keep the machine oiled so to speak. Times when the IDEAL of
consensual living collides with reality. Which makes it hard for me to
swallow as a whole.
Yes, we are constantly trying to be more creative, meet the underlying
needs etc....
The thing is, I think it's a GOOD skill to learn to give for others. I
think empathy is useful and necessary.....which involves giving up
your own want/desire occasionally. I can see where people do it in an
unhealthy way, but that's not something I would encourage.
I think service to others, giving and compromise are positive tools
when a person is whole, healthy, strong and able to care for
themselves. Underlying needs can be met in the long-term without
always getting exactly what you want in the moment.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com