unfriendly daughter, the second
Johanna
Dear list,
I'l try it again. I still don't get it. I don't know what to do!
Please help me...
Problem: she's sooooo unfriendly ;-) I can take some of that for a
while and just swallow and do what she requests. But at the end of
the day (and sometimes earlier...) I'm just tired of being nagged at
(oh, I see, yeah right, *I* was like that to her in the past, but
still! I don't know what to do NOW) and then I can't just react
fiendly. I want to model friendliness. But I can't just react
friendly every time she's sooo unfriendly to me. She'll whine and
order me to do things in a horrible unfriendly tone. I know this is a
residue from the past and I know I'm the one who modelled this
behaviour before. I've tried to stay calm and just inform her that
next time, I'd like her to say it nicer. I've tried to say "I won't
let anybody talk to me that way" when it's really just too much. But
beyond that I don't know what to do. Also, the result is, that
everytime I overreact or sound the least unfriendly or demanding or
anything, she'll shout "I won't let anybody talk to me that way!" ;-)
She's right but then no talking is possible, she'll refuse to talk
and walk away. On the one hand I feel like not doing anything at all
of what she is requesting (demanding) when talked to like that, but
if I do that this is kind of like punishing her (like I did in the
past). On the other hand, I also don't just want to swallow and just
do it, because I fear I will model that you can talk like that to
everybody if you want and get what you want. It feels like she won't
have any motivation to be nice to anybody if I let her "get away with
it".
I've searched the archives, I've asked the Germans :-) I've tried to
be patient.... I'm half through "How to talk to kids..." I still
dunno what to do! Please help! I don't know how to react!
Now we just had a problem again and she was so naggy and demanding
and unfriendly, disrespectful and everything, I still stayed calm but
I couldn't help but say that I actually wasn't motivated at all to do
anything because she was so unfriendly... At the end she went off to
her room. She always does that. If there is a problem and she feels
we don't understand, she just walks off. It doesn't help going after
her, she won't let anybody in. She's absolutely unwilling to talk
about it afterwards even a day after! Even if I have calmed down and
apologize and so on! So we can actually never just talk about the
real problem or anything... *sigh*
My boyfriend suggested that the priority now was to build up that
trust that I'm her partner and helper, so I should swallow first and
just do whatever she wants no matter what she requests and how. When
that trust is built up, everything would be different and if the
problem persisted, one could still approach this problem differently
on the basis of trust. It makes sense to me. Is he right?
What do I do with my anger? How could I tell her that I'd like her to
be friendlier without disrespecting her? How can I swallow without
loosing my dignity? Are you confident she won't "learn" that she can
be as unfriendly as she ‘chooses‘ and get everything? Actually since
she kind of understood that we are trying to live in *freedom*, she
says all the time everything is her choice. I fear that she doesn't
understand that we have freedoms too and one of them has to do with
not wanting to be talked to like that, wanting to have the "freedom"
to live peacefully and not talked to like a slave...
I feel like she is in total control of the situation.
Greetings
Johanna
--
Unerzogen! | dialog@... | http://www.unerzogen.de |
unerzogen-subscribe@...
I'l try it again. I still don't get it. I don't know what to do!
Please help me...
Problem: she's sooooo unfriendly ;-) I can take some of that for a
while and just swallow and do what she requests. But at the end of
the day (and sometimes earlier...) I'm just tired of being nagged at
(oh, I see, yeah right, *I* was like that to her in the past, but
still! I don't know what to do NOW) and then I can't just react
fiendly. I want to model friendliness. But I can't just react
friendly every time she's sooo unfriendly to me. She'll whine and
order me to do things in a horrible unfriendly tone. I know this is a
residue from the past and I know I'm the one who modelled this
behaviour before. I've tried to stay calm and just inform her that
next time, I'd like her to say it nicer. I've tried to say "I won't
let anybody talk to me that way" when it's really just too much. But
beyond that I don't know what to do. Also, the result is, that
everytime I overreact or sound the least unfriendly or demanding or
anything, she'll shout "I won't let anybody talk to me that way!" ;-)
She's right but then no talking is possible, she'll refuse to talk
and walk away. On the one hand I feel like not doing anything at all
of what she is requesting (demanding) when talked to like that, but
if I do that this is kind of like punishing her (like I did in the
past). On the other hand, I also don't just want to swallow and just
do it, because I fear I will model that you can talk like that to
everybody if you want and get what you want. It feels like she won't
have any motivation to be nice to anybody if I let her "get away with
it".
I've searched the archives, I've asked the Germans :-) I've tried to
be patient.... I'm half through "How to talk to kids..." I still
dunno what to do! Please help! I don't know how to react!
Now we just had a problem again and she was so naggy and demanding
and unfriendly, disrespectful and everything, I still stayed calm but
I couldn't help but say that I actually wasn't motivated at all to do
anything because she was so unfriendly... At the end she went off to
her room. She always does that. If there is a problem and she feels
we don't understand, she just walks off. It doesn't help going after
her, she won't let anybody in. She's absolutely unwilling to talk
about it afterwards even a day after! Even if I have calmed down and
apologize and so on! So we can actually never just talk about the
real problem or anything... *sigh*
My boyfriend suggested that the priority now was to build up that
trust that I'm her partner and helper, so I should swallow first and
just do whatever she wants no matter what she requests and how. When
that trust is built up, everything would be different and if the
problem persisted, one could still approach this problem differently
on the basis of trust. It makes sense to me. Is he right?
What do I do with my anger? How could I tell her that I'd like her to
be friendlier without disrespecting her? How can I swallow without
loosing my dignity? Are you confident she won't "learn" that she can
be as unfriendly as she ‘chooses‘ and get everything? Actually since
she kind of understood that we are trying to live in *freedom*, she
says all the time everything is her choice. I fear that she doesn't
understand that we have freedoms too and one of them has to do with
not wanting to be talked to like that, wanting to have the "freedom"
to live peacefully and not talked to like a slave...
I feel like she is in total control of the situation.
Greetings
Johanna
--
Unerzogen! | dialog@... | http://www.unerzogen.de |
unerzogen-subscribe@...
Michelle Leifur Reid
On 10/29/06, Johanna <dialog@...> wrote:
anything she asks that is affordable, doable, and that makes sense
(you know - not stuffing chopsticks up your nose or something like
that LOL!) I don't envy you your position in trying to live a
consensual gentle parenting lifestyle while having to send your
children to school. How is she treated at school? Is she mimicking
what she sees at school? Do her teachers treat her with disrespect?
Other students? Administrators? I am sometimes grateful for my
homebody children as they dont' have a ton of influences from the
outside.
I would continue to treat them in the exact way that you *want* to be
treated (not how you are being treated). As for your anger, find a
creative way of getting rid of that and think before you act. "how
would I *want* (not expect) to be treated if I acted like my daughter
is now?" Find something to do while she is at school that can refresh
you for her return each day. Can you visit her class and observe how
she is acting? Have you talked to her teacher about her behaviour in
class? Perhaps she is well behaved in class and letting her
frustrations out when she gets home (BTDT)
Peace,
Michelle
> My boyfriend suggested that the priority now was to build up thatWell, partly right. I wouldn't do *anything* she asks, but I would do
> trust that I'm her partner and helper, so I should swallow first and
> just do whatever she wants no matter what she requests and how. When
> that trust is built up, everything would be different and if the
> problem persisted, one could still approach this problem differently
> on the basis of trust. It makes sense to me. Is he right?
>
anything she asks that is affordable, doable, and that makes sense
(you know - not stuffing chopsticks up your nose or something like
that LOL!) I don't envy you your position in trying to live a
consensual gentle parenting lifestyle while having to send your
children to school. How is she treated at school? Is she mimicking
what she sees at school? Do her teachers treat her with disrespect?
Other students? Administrators? I am sometimes grateful for my
homebody children as they dont' have a ton of influences from the
outside.
I would continue to treat them in the exact way that you *want* to be
treated (not how you are being treated). As for your anger, find a
creative way of getting rid of that and think before you act. "how
would I *want* (not expect) to be treated if I acted like my daughter
is now?" Find something to do while she is at school that can refresh
you for her return each day. Can you visit her class and observe how
she is acting? Have you talked to her teacher about her behaviour in
class? Perhaps she is well behaved in class and letting her
frustrations out when she gets home (BTDT)
Peace,
Michelle
Johanna
Well right now, she has vacations until tuesday. I don't know much
about how it is at school. She seems happy with it, she doesn't want
to talk about it much. She's never complained. After what happened
with my father the other day when he visited us (they had a horrible
power struggle while I wasn't at home and my bf was just upstairs
with ds; he shouted at her and demanded her to do something and at
the end punished her for being disrespectful and not doing what he
had told her by putting her forcefully in her room), I hope there
will be no problems at school.
In the past two weeks (her vacations), she has understood a lot about
this freedom (and asks things like: "Why don't other parents treat
their children like you do?") and about having choices and not have-
to's. While talking to my father, he pointed out that I couldn't tell
all people in the world who interact with her that we are parenting
differently and that they should treat her more respectfully and that
she might have problems at school with that. He may be right. I hope
she just learns that there are certain rules that belong in school
(for the time being). It could be though that she starts hating
school and I'm very afraid that happens, for lack of alternatives.
The Sudbury School (I'm "lucky" because there are only 3 in Germany
and one of them is starting off here in my city) hasn't really
started out here yet and I'm not sure if I want to send her there.
The other alternative schools don't have places left. I can talk to
the teacher...
Did you mean I should try to find out how she would like to be
treated when she is like this? It's very hard to tell... I guess I'd
just want the help and nothing else? When I'm cranky, I want that
everything runs as I want it and nobody to interfere. I want someone
to bring me a cup of tea :D Maybe I could bring her something nice...
What is "BTDT"?
Greetings
Johanna
about how it is at school. She seems happy with it, she doesn't want
to talk about it much. She's never complained. After what happened
with my father the other day when he visited us (they had a horrible
power struggle while I wasn't at home and my bf was just upstairs
with ds; he shouted at her and demanded her to do something and at
the end punished her for being disrespectful and not doing what he
had told her by putting her forcefully in her room), I hope there
will be no problems at school.
In the past two weeks (her vacations), she has understood a lot about
this freedom (and asks things like: "Why don't other parents treat
their children like you do?") and about having choices and not have-
to's. While talking to my father, he pointed out that I couldn't tell
all people in the world who interact with her that we are parenting
differently and that they should treat her more respectfully and that
she might have problems at school with that. He may be right. I hope
she just learns that there are certain rules that belong in school
(for the time being). It could be though that she starts hating
school and I'm very afraid that happens, for lack of alternatives.
The Sudbury School (I'm "lucky" because there are only 3 in Germany
and one of them is starting off here in my city) hasn't really
started out here yet and I'm not sure if I want to send her there.
The other alternative schools don't have places left. I can talk to
the teacher...
Did you mean I should try to find out how she would like to be
treated when she is like this? It's very hard to tell... I guess I'd
just want the help and nothing else? When I'm cranky, I want that
everything runs as I want it and nobody to interfere. I want someone
to bring me a cup of tea :D Maybe I could bring her something nice...
What is "BTDT"?
Greetings
Johanna
Lesa
>>>But I can't just reactfriendly every time she's sooo unfriendly to me.<<<
Why the heck not!? You have that choice! You're trying to model this for
her... well, here is the perfect chance. You can talk to her in a way that
is still friendly and respectful but still tell her that she ultimately has
the choice in how she acts, too. You don't have to let her disrespect you..
but you don't have to get angry and hurtful to tell her to stop.
Lesa
-------Original Message-------
From: Johanna
Date: 10/29/06 14:31:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] unfriendly daughter, the second
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Johanna
Hello Lisa,
Am 30.10.2006 um 00:08 schrieb Lesa:
thing about what I do is my "consequence" of not wanting to do
anything because I feel hurt or angry. I have managed to stay calm
but I don't seem to be able to just "swallow" and do whatever she
asks for if she is in that mood, because then *I* get into a bad mood
as well. And then in this mood I don't want to do it and that seems
to be a punishment for her. So I'd need to really swallow my bad mood
and do it anyway (?) But then again I want to be authentic and not
her to think that she can talk to me however she wants!
Johanna
Am 30.10.2006 um 00:08 schrieb Lesa:
> Why the heck not!? You have that choice! You're trying to modelYeah actually, I AM friendly and calm, I guess the only "unfriendly"
> this for
> her... well, here is the perfect chance. You can talk to her in a
> way that
> is still friendly and respectful but still tell her that she
> ultimately has
> the choice in how she acts, too. You don't have to let her
> disrespect you..
> but you don't have to get angry and hurtful to tell her to stop.
>
> Lesa
thing about what I do is my "consequence" of not wanting to do
anything because I feel hurt or angry. I have managed to stay calm
but I don't seem to be able to just "swallow" and do whatever she
asks for if she is in that mood, because then *I* get into a bad mood
as well. And then in this mood I don't want to do it and that seems
to be a punishment for her. So I'd need to really swallow my bad mood
and do it anyway (?) But then again I want to be authentic and not
her to think that she can talk to me however she wants!
Johanna
Deb Lewis
***She'll whine and order me to do things in a horrible unfriendly tone.***
This is just a thought but maybe she really doesn't know what she sounds
like.
Instead of "I won't let anybody talk to me like that..." -which creates the
problem of "or then what?"- Have your tried just asking if she's angry?
Maybe she's really not aware of how she sounds in that moment. Maybe
saying something like "you seem angry, can I help you?" Or, "you sound
angry, have I done something to upset you?" Will help her feel like you
hear her and want to help her.
Are you focusing so much on getting her to *sound* nicer that you're not
helping her with whatever underlying frustration/problem got her cranky in
the first place?
Adults sometimes forget to sound "nice" when they're angry or frustrated.
Keep being patient. Keep being a good example of someone who can cope with
problems and still be kind to those she loves.
Is this the child who has to go to school? Maybe it's a case of her taking
her pent up school frustrations out in safety, at home. Sometimes adults
take their frustration out on those closest to them because they feel secure
doing that. They know the people who love them will forgive them. She
needs home to be a safe harbor, so as hard as it may be, try not to get
angry with her. Try to comfort her and give her more reasons to think of
home as her nest.
Years ago Sandra Dodd wrote something I wish I had saved in a more secure
place than just my mind. <G> She said if you give kids a bunch of meanness
they will redistribute it to those around them. Maybe school leaves her
feeling full of meanness. Give her a bunch of love to displace the
meanness. Don't add more meanness by getting cranky or impatient.
***if I let her "get away with it". ***
Try not to think of her as someone who's trying to manipulate you. She's a
little girl who's doing the best she can to get her needs met and navigate
her world. She needs your help and you will help her in better ways if you
always think well of her.
And remember, people don't learn a whole new way of *being* overnight. It
will take time for her to learn better ways to deal with problems and nicer
ways to talk with people when she's grumpy.
Deb Lewis
This is just a thought but maybe she really doesn't know what she sounds
like.
Instead of "I won't let anybody talk to me like that..." -which creates the
problem of "or then what?"- Have your tried just asking if she's angry?
Maybe she's really not aware of how she sounds in that moment. Maybe
saying something like "you seem angry, can I help you?" Or, "you sound
angry, have I done something to upset you?" Will help her feel like you
hear her and want to help her.
Are you focusing so much on getting her to *sound* nicer that you're not
helping her with whatever underlying frustration/problem got her cranky in
the first place?
Adults sometimes forget to sound "nice" when they're angry or frustrated.
Keep being patient. Keep being a good example of someone who can cope with
problems and still be kind to those she loves.
Is this the child who has to go to school? Maybe it's a case of her taking
her pent up school frustrations out in safety, at home. Sometimes adults
take their frustration out on those closest to them because they feel secure
doing that. They know the people who love them will forgive them. She
needs home to be a safe harbor, so as hard as it may be, try not to get
angry with her. Try to comfort her and give her more reasons to think of
home as her nest.
Years ago Sandra Dodd wrote something I wish I had saved in a more secure
place than just my mind. <G> She said if you give kids a bunch of meanness
they will redistribute it to those around them. Maybe school leaves her
feeling full of meanness. Give her a bunch of love to displace the
meanness. Don't add more meanness by getting cranky or impatient.
***if I let her "get away with it". ***
Try not to think of her as someone who's trying to manipulate you. She's a
little girl who's doing the best she can to get her needs met and navigate
her world. She needs your help and you will help her in better ways if you
always think well of her.
And remember, people don't learn a whole new way of *being* overnight. It
will take time for her to learn better ways to deal with problems and nicer
ways to talk with people when she's grumpy.
Deb Lewis
Deb Lewis
*** So I'd need to really swallow my bad mood and do it anyway (?)***
When we model kindness and generosity to our kids it shouldn't be
conditional. If kindness is a good thing when people are really at their
best, isn't even more important when people are not at their best? If
generosity is good, isn't it even more important when people are in need?
When she has been grumpy with you and has asked for something, tell her you
will gladly help her because you love her. Tell her you're sorry she feels
grumpy. Wouldn't that be the most soothing thing you could hear from a
loved one if you were having a bad moment?
Deb Lewis
When we model kindness and generosity to our kids it shouldn't be
conditional. If kindness is a good thing when people are really at their
best, isn't even more important when people are not at their best? If
generosity is good, isn't it even more important when people are in need?
When she has been grumpy with you and has asked for something, tell her you
will gladly help her because you love her. Tell her you're sorry she feels
grumpy. Wouldn't that be the most soothing thing you could hear from a
loved one if you were having a bad moment?
Deb Lewis
Deb Lewis
***she has understood a lot about this freedom (and asks things like: "Why
don't other parents treat
their children like you do?") and about having choices and not have-
to's.***
Could she be feeling a little insecure about this new way? Are you very
involved with her and helping her make decisions? If she's feeling like
everything she knew before is changed? Maybe she feels lost.
Deb Lewis
don't other parents treat
their children like you do?") and about having choices and not have-
to's.***
Could she be feeling a little insecure about this new way? Are you very
involved with her and helping her make decisions? If she's feeling like
everything she knew before is changed? Maybe she feels lost.
Deb Lewis
Johanna
Am 30.10.2006 um 03:40 schrieb Deb Lewis:
coming up with mutually agreeable solutions. More and more she will
come herself and say "let's find a solution". I feel more that she's
very much enjoying this freedom, but sometimes doesn't know how to
use it properly without endangering other people's freedom. But this
is probably just a matter of time and patience... I understand she's
just finding her way and she probably wants to be kind, but just
forgets – I forget, too.
Today I also forgot cause I was cranky cause I couldn't find
something and everything was untidy and all the chairs were sidewards
on the floor so ds (1) wouldn't climb on them all the time and hurt
himself. They were in my way, and I got very frustrated and when my
daughter said "you don't have to talk to me like that" I said "well
it's because I'm frustrated and everything is so and so" o:-) So
actually I'm modelling that if you're frustrated, you have the right
to be cranky! Duh! But then again, isn't it one's "right" to be
cranky sometimes when things aren't the way you want them to be? But
then it's her right too!
I guess I want to be able to control my feelings and that she's able
to control her feelings, but at the same time grant us the right to
be "authentic". I have some error in reasoning.
And I still need to find a way how to react when it's the other way
round. Your posting earlier was very helpful:
Greetings
Johanna
> Could she be feeling a little insecure about this new way? AreYeah, maybe. But how can I help her? Yeah we are all very involved in
> you very
> involved with her and helping her make decisions? If she's
> feeling like
> everything she knew before is changed? Maybe she feels lost.
coming up with mutually agreeable solutions. More and more she will
come herself and say "let's find a solution". I feel more that she's
very much enjoying this freedom, but sometimes doesn't know how to
use it properly without endangering other people's freedom. But this
is probably just a matter of time and patience... I understand she's
just finding her way and she probably wants to be kind, but just
forgets – I forget, too.
Today I also forgot cause I was cranky cause I couldn't find
something and everything was untidy and all the chairs were sidewards
on the floor so ds (1) wouldn't climb on them all the time and hurt
himself. They were in my way, and I got very frustrated and when my
daughter said "you don't have to talk to me like that" I said "well
it's because I'm frustrated and everything is so and so" o:-) So
actually I'm modelling that if you're frustrated, you have the right
to be cranky! Duh! But then again, isn't it one's "right" to be
cranky sometimes when things aren't the way you want them to be? But
then it's her right too!
I guess I want to be able to control my feelings and that she's able
to control her feelings, but at the same time grant us the right to
be "authentic". I have some error in reasoning.
And I still need to find a way how to react when it's the other way
round. Your posting earlier was very helpful:
> When she has been grumpy with you and has asked for something, tellThank you!
> her you
> will gladly help her because you love her. Tell her you're sorry
> she feels
> grumpy. Wouldn't that be the most soothing thing you could hear
> from a
> loved one if you were having a bad moment?
Greetings
Johanna
Deb Lewis
***But then again, isn't it one's "right" to be
cranky sometimes when things aren't the way you want them to be? But
then it's her right too!***
I don't know if it's a "right" exactly, but it's certainly human. <g>
There is a difference, though, between feeling our authentic feelings and
punishing those around us when we feel grumpy. <g>
We can be nice even if we're not feeling our best. If you express your
displeasure at her behavior and if you react to her anger by getting angry
you will only prolong and possibly escalate the tension and discord in your
home. If you meet her anger and frustration with love and kindness you
will be contributing to peace. Which direction do you want to go? Toward a
more peaceful home? Or toward a place of anger and power struggle?
Do you feel that you must meet every action in kind? If she's crabby, do
you feel you then have the "right" to be crabby back? Do you feel she only
deserves your kindness when she's being kind? If so, that won't increase
kindness in your home. *You* need to fill your house up with the kindness
you want to flourish there.
Deb Lewis
cranky sometimes when things aren't the way you want them to be? But
then it's her right too!***
I don't know if it's a "right" exactly, but it's certainly human. <g>
There is a difference, though, between feeling our authentic feelings and
punishing those around us when we feel grumpy. <g>
We can be nice even if we're not feeling our best. If you express your
displeasure at her behavior and if you react to her anger by getting angry
you will only prolong and possibly escalate the tension and discord in your
home. If you meet her anger and frustration with love and kindness you
will be contributing to peace. Which direction do you want to go? Toward a
more peaceful home? Or toward a place of anger and power struggle?
Do you feel that you must meet every action in kind? If she's crabby, do
you feel you then have the "right" to be crabby back? Do you feel she only
deserves your kindness when she's being kind? If so, that won't increase
kindness in your home. *You* need to fill your house up with the kindness
you want to flourish there.
Deb Lewis
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 29, 2006, at 7:06 PM, Johanna wrote:
one with the wider perspective, the one who sees things in a bigger
context. You're the one who has to realize that you may have to model
calm acceptance and kindness and generosity and helpfulness even when
she doesn't.
Do you sometimes say to yourself something like that it isn't fair
that you have to be the one to suck it up - not be allowed to act out
on your feelings?
If so, then that is what we need to be talking about here - not her
behavior at all. Her behavior isn't the problem.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I guess I want to be able to control my feelings and that she's ableYeah - you're the mom. Are you forgetting that? You have to be the
> to control her feelings, but at the same time grant us the right to
> be "authentic". I have some error in reasoning.
one with the wider perspective, the one who sees things in a bigger
context. You're the one who has to realize that you may have to model
calm acceptance and kindness and generosity and helpfulness even when
she doesn't.
Do you sometimes say to yourself something like that it isn't fair
that you have to be the one to suck it up - not be allowed to act out
on your feelings?
If so, then that is what we need to be talking about here - not her
behavior at all. Her behavior isn't the problem.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vickisue Gray
I've been following this thread and am confused as to why you are having these issues. This is the child you raised. Same person that she was before these issues cropped up. She's a tween. Puberty is knocking at the door. Is she staying in this rotten mood as long as this thread? If she is, I'd try to find out what happened.
In our house, we have affectionately named the oldest daughter 'the bear'. For a period of time, we kept telling the youngest to stop poking the bear. He would try everything to get her attention whether it be positive or negative attention didn't matter. Then she would retaliate hence the saying.
I'm new to calling what we do 'unschooling' but that's the beauty of unschooling. You can try to talk it through with her or you can just give her her space. You have the right to tell her, if she wants to be ugly she can do it alone in her room or out in the yard. You don't have to let her issues become your issues.
The ladies here have given you incredible advise. If you can't talk to her. you could try a nicely worded note, telling her that you love her and are there if she needs you. Cranky shouldn't last forever and I'd hate for my daughters to not be able to confide in me. Sometimes just leaving them alone while reassuring them that you are there if they need you is all that they need. Always be ready to embrace them when they come to you. Hugs go a long way. Good luck.
----- Original Message ----
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 12:22:31 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: unfriendly daughter, the second
In our house, we have affectionately named the oldest daughter 'the bear'. For a period of time, we kept telling the youngest to stop poking the bear. He would try everything to get her attention whether it be positive or negative attention didn't matter. Then she would retaliate hence the saying.
I'm new to calling what we do 'unschooling' but that's the beauty of unschooling. You can try to talk it through with her or you can just give her her space. You have the right to tell her, if she wants to be ugly she can do it alone in her room or out in the yard. You don't have to let her issues become your issues.
The ladies here have given you incredible advise. If you can't talk to her. you could try a nicely worded note, telling her that you love her and are there if she needs you. Cranky shouldn't last forever and I'd hate for my daughters to not be able to confide in me. Sometimes just leaving them alone while reassuring them that you are there if they need you is all that they need. Always be ready to embrace them when they come to you. Hugs go a long way. Good luck.
----- Original Message ----
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 12:22:31 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: unfriendly daughter, the second
On Oct 29, 2006, at 7:06 PM, Johanna wrote:
> I guess I want to be able to control my feelings and that she's able
> to control her feelings, but at the same time grant us the right to
> be "authentic". I have some error in reasoning.
Yeah - you're the mom. Are you forgetting that? You have to be the
one with the wider perspective, the one who sees things in a bigger
context. You're the one who has to realize that you may have to model
calm acceptance and kindness and generosity and helpfulness even when
she doesn't.
Do you sometimes say to yourself something like that it isn't fair
that you have to be the one to suck it up - not be allowed to act out
on your feelings?
If so, then that is what we need to be talking about here - not her
behavior at all. Her behavior isn't the problem.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepres s.com/livelovele arn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Johanna
Dear Deb,
your postings make a lot of sense to me... thank you
Am 30.10.2006 um 04:50 schrieb Deb Lewis:
she should feel that I dislike her behaviour". It's more that I
autmatically feel bad when someone talks to me like that, I feel it's
a natural thing to feel and therefore, a "right".
being kind because it makes me so mad.
Greetings + thank you
Johanna
your postings make a lot of sense to me... thank you
Am 30.10.2006 um 04:50 schrieb Deb Lewis:
> If she's crabby, doIt's not that I think "yay, now I have the right to be crabby back,
> you feel you then have the "right" to be crabby back?
she should feel that I dislike her behaviour". It's more that I
autmatically feel bad when someone talks to me like that, I feel it's
a natural thing to feel and therefore, a "right".
> Do you feel she onlyNo, not at all. But sometimes I feel unable to be kind if she's not
> deserves your kindness when she's being kind?
being kind because it makes me so mad.
> If so, that won't increaseYeah, that makes sense...
> kindness in your home. *You* need to fill your house up with the
> kindness
> you want to flourish there.
Greetings + thank you
Johanna
Johanna
Hello Pam,
Am 30.10.2006 um 06:22 schrieb Pamela Sorooshian:
Btw., another thing that happens often is that my bf will start
singing or saying something she "dislikes". He often says "funny"
things, will repeat the sound of some music of a show in a funny
voice, or so. This is how he is! He doesn't do it to disturb her or
anything, but sometimes she feels disturbed. In fact, more than 50%
of what he says is being declared as "disturbing" to her and she will
get grumpy again. We've been saying she can't control what he says
all the time, and that sometimes he can stop making fun of something
and he's been able to control potential "disturbances", but sometimes
he didn't even want to make fun of anything, he just SAYS somethig
and she will say "oohhh, PAPA, sto-op!" Well this is maybe another
issue. But these are these also situations in which I feel it's
"unfair" that she can say what she wants and we aren't even
"allowed" (I know you don't like that word) to show that we dislike
how SHE's acting...
Greetings
Johanna
Am 30.10.2006 um 06:22 schrieb Pamela Sorooshian:
> Do you sometimes say to yourself something like that it isn't fairYeah, kind of o:-)
> that you have to be the one to suck it up - not be allowed to act out
> on your feelings?
Btw., another thing that happens often is that my bf will start
singing or saying something she "dislikes". He often says "funny"
things, will repeat the sound of some music of a show in a funny
voice, or so. This is how he is! He doesn't do it to disturb her or
anything, but sometimes she feels disturbed. In fact, more than 50%
of what he says is being declared as "disturbing" to her and she will
get grumpy again. We've been saying she can't control what he says
all the time, and that sometimes he can stop making fun of something
and he's been able to control potential "disturbances", but sometimes
he didn't even want to make fun of anything, he just SAYS somethig
and she will say "oohhh, PAPA, sto-op!" Well this is maybe another
issue. But these are these also situations in which I feel it's
"unfair" that she can say what she wants and we aren't even
"allowed" (I know you don't like that word) to show that we dislike
how SHE's acting...
Greetings
Johanna
Vickisue Gray
OK, Now I'm really confused. Why would she call your bf Papa? I thought from your posts, he was relatively new on the seen. and as a boyfriend (unless he's the bio-father) even if he was on the seen for awhile, won't be 'Papa'. Sounds like you have some role issues.
----- Original Message ----
From: Johanna <dialog@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 4:55:35 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: unfriendly daughter, the second
Hello Pam,
Am 30.10.2006 um 06:22 schrieb Pamela Sorooshian:
Btw., another thing that happens often is that my bf will start
singing or saying something she "dislikes". He often says "funny"
things, will repeat the sound of some music of a show in a funny
voice, or so. This is how he is! He doesn't do it to disturb her or
anything, but sometimes she feels disturbed. In fact, more than 50%
of what he says is being declared as "disturbing" to her and she will
get grumpy again. We've been saying she can't control what he says
all the time, and that sometimes he can stop making fun of something
and he's been able to control potential "disturbances" , but sometimes
he didn't even want to make fun of anything, he just SAYS somethig
and she will say "oohhh, PAPA, sto-op!" Well this is maybe another
issue. But these are these also situations in which I feel it's
"unfair" that she can say what she wants and we aren't even
"allowed" (I know you don't like that word) to show that we dislike
how SHE's acting...
Greetings
Johanna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message ----
From: Johanna <dialog@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 4:55:35 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: unfriendly daughter, the second
Hello Pam,
Am 30.10.2006 um 06:22 schrieb Pamela Sorooshian:
> Do you sometimes say to yourself something like that it isn't fairYeah, kind of o:-)
> that you have to be the one to suck it up - not be allowed to act out
> on your feelings?
Btw., another thing that happens often is that my bf will start
singing or saying something she "dislikes". He often says "funny"
things, will repeat the sound of some music of a show in a funny
voice, or so. This is how he is! He doesn't do it to disturb her or
anything, but sometimes she feels disturbed. In fact, more than 50%
of what he says is being declared as "disturbing" to her and she will
get grumpy again. We've been saying she can't control what he says
all the time, and that sometimes he can stop making fun of something
and he's been able to control potential "disturbances" , but sometimes
he didn't even want to make fun of anything, he just SAYS somethig
and she will say "oohhh, PAPA, sto-op!" Well this is maybe another
issue. But these are these also situations in which I feel it's
"unfair" that she can say what she wants and we aren't even
"allowed" (I know you don't like that word) to show that we dislike
how SHE's acting...
Greetings
Johanna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Johanna
Hello,
Am 30.10.2006 um 12:37 schrieb Vickisue Gray:
is off to nobody knows where. She remembers him a bit, misses him
sometimes, we talk about it, it's (relatively) fine. When I got
together with my bf, who is the bio-father of my son (1), two and a
half years ago, she asked him if he could be her "papa" and if she
could call him so. He agreed and ever since he's kind of her Dad. She
still relies on me most of the times, she definetly loves me
"more" (or very differently), but she accepts him as part of the
family, she referrs to him as her dad (papa) and so on. On his part,
he does anything he would do as her real dad. Back when we were
parenting traditionally, she accepted him as one who could enforce
the rules.
They sometimes have a good relationship, sometimes not so good. At
the moment it's rather not so good (but has been worse), he has got
more difficulties in applying this new approach than I, but he's also
not read the tons of material on peaceful parenting as I have. But we
definetely agree on these principles, he's just not so convinced the
"no school" part works (cause he thinks we cannot strew enough. He'd
like a place (a "school" but not in a schoolish way) where one can go
freely with lots of media and resources and people who know about all
kinds of things and he doesn't believe we can provide that). He has
recently joined this list and will be mainly lurking. (Hello there,
Schatz ;-) )
We are not married (yet), so I don't know well how to "call" him when
I talk about him ;-) bf sounds so teenish and doesn't really describe
the situation, partner sounds so non-romantic, husband is not true,
"her dad" is confusing although he kind of is....
Greetings
Johanna
Am 30.10.2006 um 12:37 schrieb Vickisue Gray:
> OK, Now I'm really confused. Why would she call your bf Papa? Iwell that is due to our unusual (?) family structure. Her bio-father
> thought from your posts, he was relatively new on the seen. and as
> a boyfriend (unless he's the bio-father) even if he was on the seen
> for awhile, won't be 'Papa'. Sounds like you have some role issues.
is off to nobody knows where. She remembers him a bit, misses him
sometimes, we talk about it, it's (relatively) fine. When I got
together with my bf, who is the bio-father of my son (1), two and a
half years ago, she asked him if he could be her "papa" and if she
could call him so. He agreed and ever since he's kind of her Dad. She
still relies on me most of the times, she definetly loves me
"more" (or very differently), but she accepts him as part of the
family, she referrs to him as her dad (papa) and so on. On his part,
he does anything he would do as her real dad. Back when we were
parenting traditionally, she accepted him as one who could enforce
the rules.
They sometimes have a good relationship, sometimes not so good. At
the moment it's rather not so good (but has been worse), he has got
more difficulties in applying this new approach than I, but he's also
not read the tons of material on peaceful parenting as I have. But we
definetely agree on these principles, he's just not so convinced the
"no school" part works (cause he thinks we cannot strew enough. He'd
like a place (a "school" but not in a schoolish way) where one can go
freely with lots of media and resources and people who know about all
kinds of things and he doesn't believe we can provide that). He has
recently joined this list and will be mainly lurking. (Hello there,
Schatz ;-) )
We are not married (yet), so I don't know well how to "call" him when
I talk about him ;-) bf sounds so teenish and doesn't really describe
the situation, partner sounds so non-romantic, husband is not true,
"her dad" is confusing although he kind of is....
Greetings
Johanna
Danielle Conger
Deb Lewis wrote:
difference so very clearly, imo.
Thanks, Deb. This is exactly the solution to the paradox Johanna pointed
out.
Learning how to have our authentic feelings without punishing those
around us is incredibly important both for ourselves and for our
children to *see*. Pretending like we're always happy isn't the answer
because it's not real, not authentic. Being open and honest about our
feelings while taking responsibility for them and not punishing others
is crucial.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (9), Julia (7), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org
>I just wanted to pull this out because it sums up such a complex
> There is a difference, though, between feeling our authentic feelings and
> punishing those around us when we feel grumpy. <g>
>
difference so very clearly, imo.
Thanks, Deb. This is exactly the solution to the paradox Johanna pointed
out.
Learning how to have our authentic feelings without punishing those
around us is incredibly important both for ourselves and for our
children to *see*. Pretending like we're always happy isn't the answer
because it's not real, not authentic. Being open and honest about our
feelings while taking responsibility for them and not punishing others
is crucial.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (9), Julia (7), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org
Vickisue Gray
oh...okay...that makes more sense....thanks for clarifing...makes it easier to follow
----- Original Message ----
From: Johanna <dialog@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 7:05:55 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: unfriendly daughter, the second
Hello,
Am 30.10.2006 um 12:37 schrieb Vickisue Gray:
is off to nobody knows where. She remembers him a bit, misses him
sometimes, we talk about it, it's (relatively) fine. When I got
together with my bf, who is the bio-father of my son (1), two and a
half years ago, she asked him if he could be her "papa" and if she
could call him so. He agreed and ever since he's kind of her Dad. She
still relies on me most of the times, she definetly loves me
"more" (or very differently) , but she accepts him as part of the
family, she referrs to him as her dad (papa) and so on. On his part,
he does anything he would do as her real dad. Back when we were
parenting traditionally, she accepted him as one who could enforce
the rules.
They sometimes have a good relationship, sometimes not so good. At
the moment it's rather not so good (but has been worse), he has got
more difficulties in applying this new approach than I, but he's also
not read the tons of material on peaceful parenting as I have. But we
definetely agree on these principles, he's just not so convinced the
"no school" part works (cause he thinks we cannot strew enough. He'd
like a place (a "school" but not in a schoolish way) where one can go
freely with lots of media and resources and people who know about all
kinds of things and he doesn't believe we can provide that). He has
recently joined this list and will be mainly lurking. (Hello there,
Schatz ;-) )
We are not married (yet), so I don't know well how to "call" him when
I talk about him ;-) bf sounds so teenish and doesn't really describe
the situation, partner sounds so non-romantic, husband is not true,
"her dad" is confusing although he kind of is....
Greetings
Johanna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message ----
From: Johanna <dialog@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 7:05:55 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: unfriendly daughter, the second
Hello,
Am 30.10.2006 um 12:37 schrieb Vickisue Gray:
> OK, Now I'm really confused. Why would she call your bf Papa? Iwell that is due to our unusual (?) family structure. Her bio-father
> thought from your posts, he was relatively new on the seen. and as
> a boyfriend (unless he's the bio-father) even if he was on the seen
> for awhile, won't be 'Papa'. Sounds like you have some role issues.
is off to nobody knows where. She remembers him a bit, misses him
sometimes, we talk about it, it's (relatively) fine. When I got
together with my bf, who is the bio-father of my son (1), two and a
half years ago, she asked him if he could be her "papa" and if she
could call him so. He agreed and ever since he's kind of her Dad. She
still relies on me most of the times, she definetly loves me
"more" (or very differently) , but she accepts him as part of the
family, she referrs to him as her dad (papa) and so on. On his part,
he does anything he would do as her real dad. Back when we were
parenting traditionally, she accepted him as one who could enforce
the rules.
They sometimes have a good relationship, sometimes not so good. At
the moment it's rather not so good (but has been worse), he has got
more difficulties in applying this new approach than I, but he's also
not read the tons of material on peaceful parenting as I have. But we
definetely agree on these principles, he's just not so convinced the
"no school" part works (cause he thinks we cannot strew enough. He'd
like a place (a "school" but not in a schoolish way) where one can go
freely with lots of media and resources and people who know about all
kinds of things and he doesn't believe we can provide that). He has
recently joined this list and will be mainly lurking. (Hello there,
Schatz ;-) )
We are not married (yet), so I don't know well how to "call" him when
I talk about him ;-) bf sounds so teenish and doesn't really describe
the situation, partner sounds so non-romantic, husband is not true,
"her dad" is confusing although he kind of is....
Greetings
Johanna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lesa
Ultimately you have the choice to be in a bad mood! You can let your
daughter and other people push your buttons... or you can choose not to let
them affect you in a negative way.
You do not have to do everything for your daughter. It doesn't have to be a
punishment that you won't respond to her when she treats you that way. It
is not. It is ok to tell her that she does not have to disrespect you to
get what she wants.
You all are still very new to living this way and it will take awhile for
the dynamics to change.
Lesa
-------Original Message-------
From: Johanna
Date: 10/29/06 18:47:50
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] unfriendly daughter, the second
Yeah actually, I AM friendly and calm, I guess the only "unfriendly"
thing about what I do is my "consequence" of not wanting to do
anything because I feel hurt or angry. I have managed to stay calm
but I don't seem to be able to just "swallow" and do whatever she
asks for if she is in that mood, because then *I* get into a bad mood
as well. And then in this mood I don't want to do it and that seems
to be a punishment for her. So I'd need to really swallow my bad mood
and do it anyway (?) But then again I want to be authentic and not
her to think that she can talk to me however she wants!
Johanna
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
daughter and other people push your buttons... or you can choose not to let
them affect you in a negative way.
You do not have to do everything for your daughter. It doesn't have to be a
punishment that you won't respond to her when she treats you that way. It
is not. It is ok to tell her that she does not have to disrespect you to
get what she wants.
You all are still very new to living this way and it will take awhile for
the dynamics to change.
Lesa
-------Original Message-------
From: Johanna
Date: 10/29/06 18:47:50
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] unfriendly daughter, the second
Yeah actually, I AM friendly and calm, I guess the only "unfriendly"
thing about what I do is my "consequence" of not wanting to do
anything because I feel hurt or angry. I have managed to stay calm
but I don't seem to be able to just "swallow" and do whatever she
asks for if she is in that mood, because then *I* get into a bad mood
as well. And then in this mood I don't want to do it and that seems
to be a punishment for her. So I'd need to really swallow my bad mood
and do it anyway (?) But then again I want to be authentic and not
her to think that she can talk to me however she wants!
Johanna
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lesa
>>>We are not married (yet), so I don't know well how to "call" him whenI talk about him ;-) bf sounds so teenish and doesn't really describe
the situation, partner sounds so non-romantic, husband is not true,
"her dad" is confusing although he kind of is....<<<
Being a dad is more than donating sperm. He is her dad... but call him what
you want. Have you asked him what he would like to be called in situations
when conversations include him?
Lesa
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Johanna
Yeah, actually we agreed on "bf" or "her dad" depending on the
situation. He also says "my daughter" and so on. I use it naturally
and it's no big deal, it's normal to us and he's definitely more of a
dad than her bio-father!!! But then there are situations like now,
when I call him "my bf" and then the next sentence "she says
‘papa'"... and it confuses people :-D
Greetings
Johanna
Am 30.10.2006 um 18:18 schrieb Lesa:
situation. He also says "my daughter" and so on. I use it naturally
and it's no big deal, it's normal to us and he's definitely more of a
dad than her bio-father!!! But then there are situations like now,
when I call him "my bf" and then the next sentence "she says
‘papa'"... and it confuses people :-D
Greetings
Johanna
Am 30.10.2006 um 18:18 schrieb Lesa:
> Being a dad is more than donating sperm. He is her dad... but call
> him what
> you want. Have you asked him what he would like to be called in
> situations
> when conversations include him?
julie
Hi Joanna--
I haven't read all the replies yet, but wanted to chime in.
Sometimes my son can have a very grumpy tone with his requests. He's
7yrs old and most of his requests are things he could do himself--get
him water, make him toast, put on his socks, go in the bathroom with
him (he's afraid of spiders), whatever. I've learned that can
sometimes mean that he wants to be around me more. Also, when he
requests anything from me, I do take into account what I'm doing so
that I can have a true answer if I say I can't do something. Sometimes
I really am in the middle of something or I want to finish reading a
paragraph or something---but I try to make my "no's" contain a "yes".
Maybe the yes part of my "no" answer comes in the form of "after I
do/read/put away" this or that. Maybe my no comes from being in the
middle of cooking a timed thing. Maybe I have a request to share the
thing---"could you get your socks and I'll put them on for you". And I
allow for him to say no to that because it is an actual request, not a
demand, of mine.
I know my son is younger than your daughter, but maybe there is
something helpful in what I've said.
~~Julie.
I haven't read all the replies yet, but wanted to chime in.
Sometimes my son can have a very grumpy tone with his requests. He's
7yrs old and most of his requests are things he could do himself--get
him water, make him toast, put on his socks, go in the bathroom with
him (he's afraid of spiders), whatever. I've learned that can
sometimes mean that he wants to be around me more. Also, when he
requests anything from me, I do take into account what I'm doing so
that I can have a true answer if I say I can't do something. Sometimes
I really am in the middle of something or I want to finish reading a
paragraph or something---but I try to make my "no's" contain a "yes".
Maybe the yes part of my "no" answer comes in the form of "after I
do/read/put away" this or that. Maybe my no comes from being in the
middle of cooking a timed thing. Maybe I have a request to share the
thing---"could you get your socks and I'll put them on for you". And I
allow for him to say no to that because it is an actual request, not a
demand, of mine.
I know my son is younger than your daughter, but maybe there is
something helpful in what I've said.
~~Julie.