Consequences of actions
Johanna
Dear List,
this e-mail got too long, but I'm so bad in summarizing, so I've put
headers for you to decide wich part you want to read – the question
is understandable without the begining ;-D
*My dad*
=======
I survived my first 4 days with my father visiting us after we
started gentle parenting. He's a "fan" of coercive methods and has
long worked with children - with "uneducatable children" - children
of parents who don't do anything with them, neglect them and just
don't care, so they start not going to school, playing in the cat's
toilet, throwing with pooh, parents beating them and so on. He worked
for the youth office to take care of these children. Now he's working
in a school were children have a lot of freedom in learning, though
they still have some classes they have to attend. He says he sees
they don't learn anything, and of course learning in freedom works,
if you're going to live in "the jungle" and don't need "civilized"
skills. Nobody would hire you without a good graduation certificate
blahblah. I avoided saying anything about my dream of not sending my
daughter to school ;-)
*Talking to him*
============
Well anyway, I succeeded in explaining my new way of gentle
parenting, no punishments, no rules and no limitations, lots of help
and strewing etc. I also succeeded to avoid any labels
("unschooling", "gentle parenting", or worse "antiauthoritarian
education" (which is known by this name as the way the Hippies did in
the 70's and has a very very bad reputation around here for "not
having worked"))
*His fight with my daughter*
=====================
It was so cool, he was much more tolerant than I had expected (I was
nervous and had wanted to avoid the subject, but we had to talk about
it, because when I wasn't there, an argument arised between him and
my daughter. He told her to "bring the jacket upstairs" and she said
"I can decide on my own if I want to do that" and he started yelling
at her "YOU BRING THE JACKET UPSTAIRS BECAUSE I TELL YOU SO" and so
on, so she got histeric and shouted and cried, he packed her by her
shoulders and "threw" her in her room for being disrespectful and
told her she was not allowed to come out until she "calmed down". So
I had to explain why she reacted that way and we engaged in a
peaceful conversation about gentle parenting and our new ways).
*The outcome of our discussion*
=========================
I was so proud of him for understanding most of what I said, for
being respectful and so tolerant of other ways and open minded to
listen. I was so proud of *me* for having soooo many arguments
(thanks to you, this list, and all those blogs and websites on
unschooling!) and for being able to respond to most of the "typical"
questions! :-D He agreed on a lot of what I said, and he couldn't
quite make his point, at the end he just said "well it sounds good,
but i have the feeling there is *something* wrong with the concept,
but I don't know exactly what it is yet; something bothers me about it".
*My question*
===========
But – There were a few questions/comments I couldn't respond to,
would you help me out?:
(Since this e-mail is already so long, I will only post a first
question and later on others if I don't forget...)
How will children learn that what you do/decide to do has a
(sometimes bad) *consequence*, if you don't let your child experience
it?
On the one hand, he said I was pushing my responsibility (for her)
onto her. Because if her actions had bad consequences, *she* would be
the one who would have to live with the consequence (bad teeth, a
cold, bad skills, being "dumb" because of TV etc, no friends for lack
of social skills, whatever (he didn't name these consequences, I'm
making them up for better understanding)). I said that in any child
rearing "technique" the children are the ones who carry the
consequences (but his point was that forcing the child to put on a
jacket would *avoid* the bad consequence of a cold, for instance, and
it was my responsibility that she doesn't GET sick in the first place).
On the other hand, he thought this approach would be OK (but meaner
than just using coercive methods) if I would let her experience the
cold and the sickness, so she would "learn the consequences of her
actions" - but then I said that if she made a mistake, I wouldn't be
there saying "well - bad luck - you see how stupid a decission it was
to not bring the jacket? now live with the consequences" – so I would
either have already brought a jacket and carried it myself until she
felt cold, or given her mine or went home or bought one on the way
or... (creative solutions).
But then he said, if I was *always* there for her, jumping in at
whatever conflict/problem arose, how would she learn that in ("real")
life, all actions have consequences and that later on there wouldn't
always be somebody with an umbrella to rescue you from the
consequences of standing with pyjamas in the rain?
I only said that she'd see what the consequences were anyway (oh,
it's cold if I don't bring a jacket), but she just didn't have to
suffer the consequences and that at times it was more important to
learn "mommy will be there for me, I can count on her"). I said I
couldn't imagine a child was so dumb as to conclude I would always be
"serving" him/her for the rest of my life, as my mother isn't doing
anymore (and never was, lol!) and that children usually become
independent themselves all on their own.
Another argument would be, but it didn't come to my mind when we
talked, is why would children who are forced to put on their jackets
*learn* that their actions have consequences – they don't even have
the few minutes of experience like our children, until we pull out
the jackets of our backpacks. Plus all the bad things they learn
about their parents being mean, arbitrary, etc etc.
Yet, I feel there must be more to say about that... any ideas?
Thank you for reading and for making me strong to "survive" a
conversation with my father about it,
Johanna
--
Unerzogen! | dialog@... | http://www.unerzogen.de |
unerzogen-subscribe@...
this e-mail got too long, but I'm so bad in summarizing, so I've put
headers for you to decide wich part you want to read – the question
is understandable without the begining ;-D
*My dad*
=======
I survived my first 4 days with my father visiting us after we
started gentle parenting. He's a "fan" of coercive methods and has
long worked with children - with "uneducatable children" - children
of parents who don't do anything with them, neglect them and just
don't care, so they start not going to school, playing in the cat's
toilet, throwing with pooh, parents beating them and so on. He worked
for the youth office to take care of these children. Now he's working
in a school were children have a lot of freedom in learning, though
they still have some classes they have to attend. He says he sees
they don't learn anything, and of course learning in freedom works,
if you're going to live in "the jungle" and don't need "civilized"
skills. Nobody would hire you without a good graduation certificate
blahblah. I avoided saying anything about my dream of not sending my
daughter to school ;-)
*Talking to him*
============
Well anyway, I succeeded in explaining my new way of gentle
parenting, no punishments, no rules and no limitations, lots of help
and strewing etc. I also succeeded to avoid any labels
("unschooling", "gentle parenting", or worse "antiauthoritarian
education" (which is known by this name as the way the Hippies did in
the 70's and has a very very bad reputation around here for "not
having worked"))
*His fight with my daughter*
=====================
It was so cool, he was much more tolerant than I had expected (I was
nervous and had wanted to avoid the subject, but we had to talk about
it, because when I wasn't there, an argument arised between him and
my daughter. He told her to "bring the jacket upstairs" and she said
"I can decide on my own if I want to do that" and he started yelling
at her "YOU BRING THE JACKET UPSTAIRS BECAUSE I TELL YOU SO" and so
on, so she got histeric and shouted and cried, he packed her by her
shoulders and "threw" her in her room for being disrespectful and
told her she was not allowed to come out until she "calmed down". So
I had to explain why she reacted that way and we engaged in a
peaceful conversation about gentle parenting and our new ways).
*The outcome of our discussion*
=========================
I was so proud of him for understanding most of what I said, for
being respectful and so tolerant of other ways and open minded to
listen. I was so proud of *me* for having soooo many arguments
(thanks to you, this list, and all those blogs and websites on
unschooling!) and for being able to respond to most of the "typical"
questions! :-D He agreed on a lot of what I said, and he couldn't
quite make his point, at the end he just said "well it sounds good,
but i have the feeling there is *something* wrong with the concept,
but I don't know exactly what it is yet; something bothers me about it".
*My question*
===========
But – There were a few questions/comments I couldn't respond to,
would you help me out?:
(Since this e-mail is already so long, I will only post a first
question and later on others if I don't forget...)
How will children learn that what you do/decide to do has a
(sometimes bad) *consequence*, if you don't let your child experience
it?
On the one hand, he said I was pushing my responsibility (for her)
onto her. Because if her actions had bad consequences, *she* would be
the one who would have to live with the consequence (bad teeth, a
cold, bad skills, being "dumb" because of TV etc, no friends for lack
of social skills, whatever (he didn't name these consequences, I'm
making them up for better understanding)). I said that in any child
rearing "technique" the children are the ones who carry the
consequences (but his point was that forcing the child to put on a
jacket would *avoid* the bad consequence of a cold, for instance, and
it was my responsibility that she doesn't GET sick in the first place).
On the other hand, he thought this approach would be OK (but meaner
than just using coercive methods) if I would let her experience the
cold and the sickness, so she would "learn the consequences of her
actions" - but then I said that if she made a mistake, I wouldn't be
there saying "well - bad luck - you see how stupid a decission it was
to not bring the jacket? now live with the consequences" – so I would
either have already brought a jacket and carried it myself until she
felt cold, or given her mine or went home or bought one on the way
or... (creative solutions).
But then he said, if I was *always* there for her, jumping in at
whatever conflict/problem arose, how would she learn that in ("real")
life, all actions have consequences and that later on there wouldn't
always be somebody with an umbrella to rescue you from the
consequences of standing with pyjamas in the rain?
I only said that she'd see what the consequences were anyway (oh,
it's cold if I don't bring a jacket), but she just didn't have to
suffer the consequences and that at times it was more important to
learn "mommy will be there for me, I can count on her"). I said I
couldn't imagine a child was so dumb as to conclude I would always be
"serving" him/her for the rest of my life, as my mother isn't doing
anymore (and never was, lol!) and that children usually become
independent themselves all on their own.
Another argument would be, but it didn't come to my mind when we
talked, is why would children who are forced to put on their jackets
*learn* that their actions have consequences – they don't even have
the few minutes of experience like our children, until we pull out
the jackets of our backpacks. Plus all the bad things they learn
about their parents being mean, arbitrary, etc etc.
Yet, I feel there must be more to say about that... any ideas?
Thank you for reading and for making me strong to "survive" a
conversation with my father about it,
Johanna
--
Unerzogen! | dialog@... | http://www.unerzogen.de |
unerzogen-subscribe@...
Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky
>>>>>>>>>>>>bad teeth,<<<<<<<<<<<<********Why would she have bad teeth?
There are people that skip brushing and eat lots of
candy ( My best friend, my uncle) and have NO caavities and there are people
who are very careful and have "bad teeth" like my dad.
>>>>>> a cold<<<<<<<<<<<<<<**********Because she did not wear her Jacket?? YOu get a cold from virus
not because you did not wear a jacket. I never do unless is below 0 C I
just go aut without one. My son is the same way. We don't get colds because
of it. . I always DO take a jacket and for him if he feels he needs one
later. He is just 4 yo.
And I also keep one in the car. We live in very cold Minnesota.
>>>>>>>, bad skills<<<<<<<<<************Bad skills in what????? Accepting someone else's ideas and
"obeying" are not skills I want my kids to have. I want them to be their own
person and listen to thier guts and feelings.
>>>>>>, being "dumb" because of TV etc<<<<<<<<<<*******************I love TV! I consicer my self intelligent and capable. I
have a Juris Doctorate ( Graduated form Law School in Brazil)and my Theses
was published by the University. I watch LOTS of TV.
>>>>>, no friends for lackof social skills, whatever (he didn't name these consequences, I'm
making them up for better understanding)). I said that in any child
rearing "technique" the children are the ones who carry the
consequences (but his point was that forcing the child to put on a
jacket would *avoid* the bad consequence of a cold, for instance, and
it was my responsibility that she doesn't GET sick in the first
place).<<<<<<
******************Kids get sick, we get sick. You cannot stop viruses from
getting to your child unless they live in a bubble! No jacket will stop
that!
>>>>>>>>On the other hand, he thought this approach would be OK (but meanerthan just using coercive methods) if I would let her experience the
cold and the sickness, so she would "learn the consequences of her
actions" - but then I said that if she made a mistake, I wouldn't be
there saying "well - bad luck - you see how stupid a decission it was
to not bring the jacket? now live with the consequences" – so I would
either have already brought a jacket and carried it myself until she
felt cold, or given her mine or went home or bought one on the way
or... (creative solutions).<<<<<<<<<<<<
********************************Life is full of consequences. You have to be
in your kids side in life. Take a jacket IF they get cold later. Be there if
they need.
Alex
Joanne
--- In [email protected], Johanna <dialog@...> wrote:
It comes down to a matter of trust for us. If I say to my
daughter "Your friend may not want to come over anymore if you spend
all your time on the phone while she's here. She looks upset because
you're ignoring her." she trusts me enough to know that I may be
right. She can still choose to stay on the phone but then her friend
has the choice to go home. Also, before her friend came over, we
would have talked about certain situations and ways to handle them.
I don't micro-manage my daughters, so when I do offer a suggestion
or advice because I have experience in a certain situation, they
usually trust that I know what I'm talking about.
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 2003
************************************
Unschooling Voices ~ Add Your Voice
www.foreverparents.com/UnschoolingVoices.html
>>>>How will children learn that what you do/decide to do has aexperience it?>>>>>
> (sometimes bad) *consequence*, if you don't let your child
It comes down to a matter of trust for us. If I say to my
daughter "Your friend may not want to come over anymore if you spend
all your time on the phone while she's here. She looks upset because
you're ignoring her." she trusts me enough to know that I may be
right. She can still choose to stay on the phone but then her friend
has the choice to go home. Also, before her friend came over, we
would have talked about certain situations and ways to handle them.
I don't micro-manage my daughters, so when I do offer a suggestion
or advice because I have experience in a certain situation, they
usually trust that I know what I'm talking about.
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 2003
************************************
Unschooling Voices ~ Add Your Voice
www.foreverparents.com/UnschoolingVoices.html
Johanna
Well as I said, these are just examples of things people usually say.
I know all this. There surely are bad consequences to some actions.
It's already a "bad consequences" to be cold without jacket and
having to suffer. Whatever, these were just random examples :-)
Greetings
Johanna
I know all this. There surely are bad consequences to some actions.
It's already a "bad consequences" to be cold without jacket and
having to suffer. Whatever, these were just random examples :-)
Greetings
Johanna
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad teeth,<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> ********Why would she have bad teeth?
> There are people that skip brushing and eat
> lots of
> candy ( My best friend, my uncle) and have NO caavities and there
> are people
> who are very careful and have "bad teeth" like my dad.
>
>
>>>>>>> a cold<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> **********Because she did not wear her Jacket?? YOu get a cold from
> virus
> not because you did not wear a jacket. I never do unless is below 0
> C I
> just go aut without one. My son is the same way. We don't get colds
> because
> of it. . I always DO take a jacket and for him if he feels he needs
> one
> later. He is just 4 yo.
> And I also keep one in the car. We live in very cold Minnesota.
>
>
>>>>>>>> , bad skills<<<<<<<<<
>
> ************Bad skills in what????? Accepting someone else's ideas and
> "obeying" are not skills I want my kids to have. I want them to be
> their own
> person and listen to thier guts and feelings.
>
>>>>>>> , being "dumb" because of TV etc<<<<<<<<<<
>
> *******************I love TV! I consicer my self intelligent and
> capable. I
> have a Juris Doctorate ( Graduated form Law School in Brazil)and my
> Theses
> was published by the University. I watch LOTS of TV.
>
>>>>>> , no friends for lack
> of social skills, whatever (he didn't name these consequences, I'm
> making them up for better understanding)). I said that in any child
> rearing "technique" the children are the ones who carry the
> consequences (but his point was that forcing the child to put on a
> jacket would *avoid* the bad consequence of a cold, for instance, and
> it was my responsibility that she doesn't GET sick in the first
> place).<<<<<<
>
> ******************Kids get sick, we get sick. You cannot stop
> viruses from
> getting to your child unless they live in a bubble! No jacket will
> stop
> that!
>
>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, he thought this approach would be OK
>>>>>>>>> (but meaner
> than just using coercive methods) if I would let her experience the
> cold and the sickness, so she would "learn the consequences of her
> actions" - but then I said that if she made a mistake, I wouldn't be
> there saying "well - bad luck - you see how stupid a decission it was
> to not bring the jacket? now live with the consequences" – so I would
> either have already brought a jacket and carried it myself until she
> felt cold, or given her mine or went home or bought one on the way
> or... (creative solutions).<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> ********************************Life is full of consequences. You
> have to be
> in your kids side in life. Take a jacket IF they get cold later. Be
> there if
> they need.
>
> Alex
Misty
--- In [email protected], Johanna <dialog@...> wrote:
yr old, so here's a snip of an e-mail to my spouse about treating
her as an equal...
Today when we went out on a walk she wanted to go in her princess
costume, I warned her that it might be cold but the sun was shining
and we'd give it a try. I assured her that at any time we could go
back to dress more warmly, get shoes, etc. and off we went. After
checking the mail I double checked with her b/c I in my jeans and
turtleneck was cool when the wind blew hard. She assured me she was
fine and we continued on our walk. Along the way I started
formulating in my head, not sure why, responses to someone telling
me she should be dressed warmer. My thought was this, she knows if
she's cold, she knows she can go back and get a coat, or whatever,
and I wouldn't insist that you dress warmer just b/c I feel cold.
Different people feel the weather in different ways.
And, my dd never did get cold her costume was basically a leotard
with a ballet type skirt. BTW DH tolerates cold much better that I
guess she takes after him. I would never dream of insisting he
bring a jacket or change clothes just inform him of the weather like
I did with her.
Misty
>(but his point was that forcing the child to put on aand
> jacket would *avoid* the bad consequence of a cold, for instance,
> it was my responsibility that she doesn't GET sick in the firstplace).
>This reminded me of something that happened today with my almost 3
yr old, so here's a snip of an e-mail to my spouse about treating
her as an equal...
Today when we went out on a walk she wanted to go in her princess
costume, I warned her that it might be cold but the sun was shining
and we'd give it a try. I assured her that at any time we could go
back to dress more warmly, get shoes, etc. and off we went. After
checking the mail I double checked with her b/c I in my jeans and
turtleneck was cool when the wind blew hard. She assured me she was
fine and we continued on our walk. Along the way I started
formulating in my head, not sure why, responses to someone telling
me she should be dressed warmer. My thought was this, she knows if
she's cold, she knows she can go back and get a coat, or whatever,
and I wouldn't insist that you dress warmer just b/c I feel cold.
Different people feel the weather in different ways.
And, my dd never did get cold her costume was basically a leotard
with a ballet type skirt. BTW DH tolerates cold much better that I
guess she takes after him. I would never dream of insisting he
bring a jacket or change clothes just inform him of the weather like
I did with her.
Misty
Kelly Weyd
I have a kid who refuses to wear a jacket, and I rarely wear a jacket. It's just not an issue with us. But my MIL absolutely freaks out over this. She is convinced getting a chill will make you sick. For ten years I have been telling her that germs make you sick, not going outside without a jacket. We have less colds than most, so I just don't get her logic.
Kelly
Misty <misty@...> wrote:
Kelly
Misty <misty@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], Johanna <dialog@...> wrote:
>(but his point was that forcing the child to put on a
> jacket would *avoid* the bad consequence of a cold, for instance,
and
> it was my responsibility that she doesn't GET sick in the first
place).
>
This reminded me of something that happened today with my almost 3
yr old, so here's a snip of an e-mail to my spouse about treating
her as an equal...
Today when we went out on a walk she wanted to go in her princess
costume, I warned her that it might be cold but the sun was shining
and we'd give it a try. I assured her that at any time we could go
back to dress more warmly, get shoes, etc. and off we went. After
checking the mail I double checked with her b/c I in my jeans and
turtleneck was cool when the wind blew hard. She assured me she was
fine and we continued on our walk. Along the way I started
formulating in my head, not sure why, responses to someone telling
me she should be dressed warmer. My thought was this, she knows if
she's cold, she knows she can go back and get a coat, or whatever,
and I wouldn't insist that you dress warmer just b/c I feel cold.
Different people feel the weather in different ways.
And, my dd never did get cold her costume was basically a leotard
with a ballet type skirt. BTW DH tolerates cold much better that I
guess she takes after him. I would never dream of insisting he
bring a jacket or change clothes just inform him of the weather like
I did with her.
Misty
---------------------------------
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