manipulation
Johanna
Dear list,
what are your thoughts on manipulation, manipulative methods to get
the child to do something?
For a few months now I've been thinking that unschooling, mindful
parenting and so on are absolutely free of manipulation. Searching in
the archives a bit (not about manipulation but other things), I have
often found suggestions that seemed "manipulative" (though not really
"mean"), when people were trying to find solutions other than
punishment etc.
For instance, suggesting you go eat an ice cream after/before some
activity the child doesn't really want to go, but was promised to the
sisters. It doesn't really feel "mean" to me, but I still don't know
were you draw the line (if you draw a line) between persuation and
manipulation or .... manipulation and just "being thankful that your
child gave you some of his valuable time to complete a 'needed' task"...
Thinking about it, this issue only applies to younger children
(toddlers). I can tell my 7-year old that we could eat ice cream
after going to the bank, but she can really understand that this is
not an arbitrary reward, but that I'm just thankful and want to do
something nice after doing something boring, plus she can just stay
at home if she doesn't want to go and in general it seems a lot
easier to find other solutions. But if I tell this to a say 2-year
old or 3-year old, I *know* he doesn't really know what it means to
go the bank, stay there sitting still or having nothing to do, being
bored and so on, and it feels like "betraying" him if I say things
like "afterwards we can go eat ice cream", and it may feel arbitrary
aswell(?).
I'm a bit confused about this and would like to read your thoughts on
this.
Thank you
Johanna
--
Unerzogen! | dialog@... | http://www.unerzogen.de |
unerzogen-subscribe@...
what are your thoughts on manipulation, manipulative methods to get
the child to do something?
For a few months now I've been thinking that unschooling, mindful
parenting and so on are absolutely free of manipulation. Searching in
the archives a bit (not about manipulation but other things), I have
often found suggestions that seemed "manipulative" (though not really
"mean"), when people were trying to find solutions other than
punishment etc.
For instance, suggesting you go eat an ice cream after/before some
activity the child doesn't really want to go, but was promised to the
sisters. It doesn't really feel "mean" to me, but I still don't know
were you draw the line (if you draw a line) between persuation and
manipulation or .... manipulation and just "being thankful that your
child gave you some of his valuable time to complete a 'needed' task"...
Thinking about it, this issue only applies to younger children
(toddlers). I can tell my 7-year old that we could eat ice cream
after going to the bank, but she can really understand that this is
not an arbitrary reward, but that I'm just thankful and want to do
something nice after doing something boring, plus she can just stay
at home if she doesn't want to go and in general it seems a lot
easier to find other solutions. But if I tell this to a say 2-year
old or 3-year old, I *know* he doesn't really know what it means to
go the bank, stay there sitting still or having nothing to do, being
bored and so on, and it feels like "betraying" him if I say things
like "afterwards we can go eat ice cream", and it may feel arbitrary
aswell(?).
I'm a bit confused about this and would like to read your thoughts on
this.
Thank you
Johanna
--
Unerzogen! | dialog@... | http://www.unerzogen.de |
unerzogen-subscribe@...
Michelle Leifur Reid
On 10/22/06, Johanna <dialog@...> wrote:
you dont' want to do something this boring (to you), so afterwards we
will do something that you will enjoy" Doesn't necessarily have to be
ice cream. Doesn't necessarily have to be the same day "...tomorrow
we will go to the air museum so you can see the planes" "....this
weekend we will cut out that dress and get it sewn for the samhain
party we are going to" "...why don't we take the trolly on the way
home."
out for an ice cream? No rewards attached? Does going out for ice
cream have ot be seen as an award or could it be seen as just
something fun to do and not connected to the bank at all? Friday I
had a ton of errands to do and the kids all decided to tag along (kind
of unusual, but they were all feeling a bit cabin-feverish so decided
to go). We went to two fabric stores, Target, the grocery store, and
the video store. Somewhere in all that we also stopped for some soup
at one of our few places we like to eat out. The lunch out and video
store weren't seen as "rewards" but just part of a long list of places
we were going. Some were more interesting than others. Some were
much more mundane.
Perhaps it is only seen as manipulative if you are treating it as
such. Sometimes it is just a way to work things out so that everyone
in the family can feel like their needs are being respected.
Michelle
> For instance, suggesting you go eat an ice cream after/before someIs this manipulation/coercion or is it negotiation. "I realize that
> activity the child doesn't really want to go, but was promised to the
> sisters.
you dont' want to do something this boring (to you), so afterwards we
will do something that you will enjoy" Doesn't necessarily have to be
ice cream. Doesn't necessarily have to be the same day "...tomorrow
we will go to the air museum so you can see the planes" "....this
weekend we will cut out that dress and get it sewn for the samhain
party we are going to" "...why don't we take the trolly on the way
home."
> Thinking about it, this issue only applies to younger childrenDoes ice cream have to be a reward at all? Have you ever just gone
> (toddlers). I can tell my 7-year old that we could eat ice cream
> after going to the bank, but she can really understand that this is
> not an arbitrary reward
out for an ice cream? No rewards attached? Does going out for ice
cream have ot be seen as an award or could it be seen as just
something fun to do and not connected to the bank at all? Friday I
had a ton of errands to do and the kids all decided to tag along (kind
of unusual, but they were all feeling a bit cabin-feverish so decided
to go). We went to two fabric stores, Target, the grocery store, and
the video store. Somewhere in all that we also stopped for some soup
at one of our few places we like to eat out. The lunch out and video
store weren't seen as "rewards" but just part of a long list of places
we were going. Some were more interesting than others. Some were
much more mundane.
Perhaps it is only seen as manipulative if you are treating it as
such. Sometimes it is just a way to work things out so that everyone
in the family can feel like their needs are being respected.
Michelle
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/22/2006 8:21:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
pamperedmichelle@... writes:
For instance, suggesting you go eat an ice cream after/before some
you dont' want to do something this boring (to you), so afterwards we
will do something that you will enjoy"
**********
I agree with Michelle. In my family, I can see that after years of doing
our best to honor what they need too (and maturity, of course!), they are more
trusting and don't really need that immediate payoff.
I do believe in helping children see the intrinsic rewards, but in life, we
get back what we give. We do get paid for going to work and if we choose to
volunteer our time, we are getting back an emotional reward. If we choose to
tidy up a room, we get a tidy room. If you accompany your husband to a
boring business dinner, you are supporting the relationship. But as an adult,
you are fully aware of these intrinsic rewards....a bit of a big concept for
many children.
Maybe a less manipulative approach to the above situation would be first to
validate. "I can see that you really don't want to go". Perhaps their is
another solution, she can stay with a friend. Then you might ask, "is there
something you have been wanting to do, too?" My friends over at Consensual
Living are really good at helping you to open up to these ideas. You might ask
yourself if you are trying to honor your child's needs or just trying to make
her do what you need. This shift in thought might have a huge impact on the
child's response to you. I have found this to be true.
And sometimes, I might say "I've been wanting some ice cream! How about
after we go with your sisters, we can all go get ice cream!"
I do know people that keep candy in their purse and promise to give candy if
the child behaves. This is behaviorism/manipulation.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamperedmichelle@... writes:
For instance, suggesting you go eat an ice cream after/before some
> activity the child doesn't really want to go, but was promised to theIs this manipulation/Is this manipulation/<WBR>coercion or is it negoti
> sisters.
you dont' want to do something this boring (to you), so afterwards we
will do something that you will enjoy"
**********
I agree with Michelle. In my family, I can see that after years of doing
our best to honor what they need too (and maturity, of course!), they are more
trusting and don't really need that immediate payoff.
I do believe in helping children see the intrinsic rewards, but in life, we
get back what we give. We do get paid for going to work and if we choose to
volunteer our time, we are getting back an emotional reward. If we choose to
tidy up a room, we get a tidy room. If you accompany your husband to a
boring business dinner, you are supporting the relationship. But as an adult,
you are fully aware of these intrinsic rewards....a bit of a big concept for
many children.
Maybe a less manipulative approach to the above situation would be first to
validate. "I can see that you really don't want to go". Perhaps their is
another solution, she can stay with a friend. Then you might ask, "is there
something you have been wanting to do, too?" My friends over at Consensual
Living are really good at helping you to open up to these ideas. You might ask
yourself if you are trying to honor your child's needs or just trying to make
her do what you need. This shift in thought might have a huge impact on the
child's response to you. I have found this to be true.
And sometimes, I might say "I've been wanting some ice cream! How about
after we go with your sisters, we can all go get ice cream!"
I do know people that keep candy in their purse and promise to give candy if
the child behaves. This is behaviorism/manipulation.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
D Smith
Since this little thing is driving me crazy, I've
decided to finally ask for help because nothing has
helped. So, please help me change the way I look at
this. Parker refuses to talk at times. Like if he
wants something, instead of asking, he points and
jumps up and down. I've repeatedly asked him to use
his words, which really just gets me mad. There are
other times, though when I don't know what he wants,
and ask him to use his words, but he refuses.
How do I help him to understand that if he doesn't use
his words, I don't know what he wants? Because I must
not be explaining this well enough for him to
understand.
I feel like a bad mom. In a way this looks like a
stupid thing to get upset about. It just bugs me.
Danie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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decided to finally ask for help because nothing has
helped. So, please help me change the way I look at
this. Parker refuses to talk at times. Like if he
wants something, instead of asking, he points and
jumps up and down. I've repeatedly asked him to use
his words, which really just gets me mad. There are
other times, though when I don't know what he wants,
and ask him to use his words, but he refuses.
How do I help him to understand that if he doesn't use
his words, I don't know what he wants? Because I must
not be explaining this well enough for him to
understand.
I feel like a bad mom. In a way this looks like a
stupid thing to get upset about. It just bugs me.
Danie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
marji
--- In [email protected], D Smith
<sandshuse@...> wrote:
information. All we know that you are being driven crazy and
that you get mad because you son refuses to speak. We don't
what his demeanor is or even if he's 2 years old or 12 years old.
That information is kind of important. Is he angrily refusing to
speak, or is this fun for him but not for you. Is it that he never
speaks or is he only refusing to speak at certain times? If so, can
you find a common trigger for his silent periods?
If he's a really little guy, perhaps he is intimidated and
uncomfortable or feeling judged. If so, your getting angry with
him can't possibly help (but I'm sure you know this). It has
always helped me to remember that I've got 38 years on my son,
and accordingly, I had better life skills than he did when he was
really young (he's impressive now at nearly 12 years of age,
though, I must say).
Anyway, because I had that advantage, I felt like the onus was
really on me to be more emotionally mature than I would expect
him to be. Not that I didn't permit myself to feel frustration or
anger, but that I would *deal* with it in a way that reduced its
impact on him. Know what I mean? I remember being a little
person dealing with a big angry person, and that can be scary!!
You might consider visiting Sandra Dodd's website
(www.sandradodd.com) and finding the section on Peaceful
Parenting. She's got a tape about Peaceful Parenting, and it's
really, really, really wonderful!
I think that whatever the reason for his silence, you need to
remember that you cannot control him. You can only control
yourself ~ and your reactions. So, when he goes into a silent
period, see if you can take a deep breath, find the thing about
him you love most and get in touch with that which makes you
feel joyful inside, and then *work* with him in a joyful way. Turn
it into a game of charades. See how long you both can go
without uttering a word. Embrace him and his silence.
If he's been enduring your wrath over this, you may find that an
abrupt change in your attitude will be such a huge relief for him
that you both can move to a new and wonderful place in your
relationship.
Anyway, I hope this has helped a little.
Here's a link to that Sandra Dodd page I was telling you about,
and there's a link on the page for her tape.
http://sandradodd.com/peacefulparenting
Best,
Marji
<sandshuse@...> wrote:
>This is hard to answer because there's a lot of missing
> Since this little thing is driving me crazy, I've
> decided to finally ask for help because nothing has
> helped. So, please help me change the way I look at
> this. Parker refuses to talk at times....
information. All we know that you are being driven crazy and
that you get mad because you son refuses to speak. We don't
what his demeanor is or even if he's 2 years old or 12 years old.
That information is kind of important. Is he angrily refusing to
speak, or is this fun for him but not for you. Is it that he never
speaks or is he only refusing to speak at certain times? If so, can
you find a common trigger for his silent periods?
If he's a really little guy, perhaps he is intimidated and
uncomfortable or feeling judged. If so, your getting angry with
him can't possibly help (but I'm sure you know this). It has
always helped me to remember that I've got 38 years on my son,
and accordingly, I had better life skills than he did when he was
really young (he's impressive now at nearly 12 years of age,
though, I must say).
Anyway, because I had that advantage, I felt like the onus was
really on me to be more emotionally mature than I would expect
him to be. Not that I didn't permit myself to feel frustration or
anger, but that I would *deal* with it in a way that reduced its
impact on him. Know what I mean? I remember being a little
person dealing with a big angry person, and that can be scary!!
You might consider visiting Sandra Dodd's website
(www.sandradodd.com) and finding the section on Peaceful
Parenting. She's got a tape about Peaceful Parenting, and it's
really, really, really wonderful!
I think that whatever the reason for his silence, you need to
remember that you cannot control him. You can only control
yourself ~ and your reactions. So, when he goes into a silent
period, see if you can take a deep breath, find the thing about
him you love most and get in touch with that which makes you
feel joyful inside, and then *work* with him in a joyful way. Turn
it into a game of charades. See how long you both can go
without uttering a word. Embrace him and his silence.
If he's been enduring your wrath over this, you may find that an
abrupt change in your attitude will be such a huge relief for him
that you both can move to a new and wonderful place in your
relationship.
Anyway, I hope this has helped a little.
Here's a link to that Sandra Dodd page I was telling you about,
and there's a link on the page for her tape.
http://sandradodd.com/peacefulparenting
Best,
Marji
Deb Lewis
***So, please help me change the way I look at
this. ***
***Parker refuses to talk at times. Like if he
wants something, instead of asking, he points and
jumps up and down.***
How old is he?
He might be experimenting. He may be realizing whole big parts of
communication can be non verbal.
***I've repeatedly asked him to use
his words, which really just gets me mad. ***
Are you too wordy? Are you bugging him? Some people talk more than other
people want to hear. <g>
Are you engaging in a power struggle with him? You can't make another
person talk. Are you focusing on the fact he's not doing what you want
instead of trying to understand what he wants?
***How do I help him to understand that if he doesn't use
his words, I don't know what he wants?***
Maybe you know what he wants more than you're admitting and you're holding
out so he'll do it your way?
***In a way this looks like a
stupid thing to get upset about. It just bugs me.***
Are you afraid he will never talk? Are you afraid of seeming like a bad mom
if your kid doesn't talk? You don't have to answer on the list, just mull
it over. Sometimes we're bugged not because there's really something wrong
but because we're afraid of how others will think of us.
If you are the kind of person who wants to control things or if you have a
strong sense that there is one right way to proceed you may have created a
power struggle.
For the next few months you could try to really let go of your desire to
make him talk and focus instead on understanding him. Communication is more
than words. He already knows this. Don't talk to him about him talking.
<g> Just talk to him the way you'd talk to your dear friend. Don't expect
him to talk. See how that goes.
Another thought:
Dylan would sometimes appear to revert to a previous behavior just before a
big new personal discovery. Maybe your kid is on the verge of talking in
great long soliloquies! <g>
Deb Lewis
this. ***
***Parker refuses to talk at times. Like if he
wants something, instead of asking, he points and
jumps up and down.***
How old is he?
He might be experimenting. He may be realizing whole big parts of
communication can be non verbal.
***I've repeatedly asked him to use
his words, which really just gets me mad. ***
Are you too wordy? Are you bugging him? Some people talk more than other
people want to hear. <g>
Are you engaging in a power struggle with him? You can't make another
person talk. Are you focusing on the fact he's not doing what you want
instead of trying to understand what he wants?
***How do I help him to understand that if he doesn't use
his words, I don't know what he wants?***
Maybe you know what he wants more than you're admitting and you're holding
out so he'll do it your way?
***In a way this looks like a
stupid thing to get upset about. It just bugs me.***
Are you afraid he will never talk? Are you afraid of seeming like a bad mom
if your kid doesn't talk? You don't have to answer on the list, just mull
it over. Sometimes we're bugged not because there's really something wrong
but because we're afraid of how others will think of us.
If you are the kind of person who wants to control things or if you have a
strong sense that there is one right way to proceed you may have created a
power struggle.
For the next few months you could try to really let go of your desire to
make him talk and focus instead on understanding him. Communication is more
than words. He already knows this. Don't talk to him about him talking.
<g> Just talk to him the way you'd talk to your dear friend. Don't expect
him to talk. See how that goes.
Another thought:
Dylan would sometimes appear to revert to a previous behavior just before a
big new personal discovery. Maybe your kid is on the verge of talking in
great long soliloquies! <g>
Deb Lewis
Johanna
Hello Danie,
Today I got my book I had ordered a few days ago in the mail:
"How to Talk so Kids Will Listen & Listen so Kids Will Talk"
I haven't read it yet, but it has been recommended here often and on
several booklists from unschoolers. I just started reading it and
remembered you. I combined what Deb said – just listen, don't force
him talk - and that second part of the book title: "listen so kids
will talk" it made sense reminding you of this book :-)
Greetings
Johanna
Am 23.10.2006 um 02:28 schrieb D Smith:
Today I got my book I had ordered a few days ago in the mail:
"How to Talk so Kids Will Listen & Listen so Kids Will Talk"
I haven't read it yet, but it has been recommended here often and on
several booklists from unschoolers. I just started reading it and
remembered you. I combined what Deb said – just listen, don't force
him talk - and that second part of the book title: "listen so kids
will talk" it made sense reminding you of this book :-)
Greetings
Johanna
Am 23.10.2006 um 02:28 schrieb D Smith:
> Since this little thing is driving me crazy, I've
> decided to finally ask for help because nothing has
> helped. So, please help me change the way I look at
> this. Parker refuses to talk at times. Like if he
> wants something, instead of asking, he points and
> jumps up and down. I've repeatedly asked him to use
> his words, which really just gets me mad. There are
> other times, though when I don't know what he wants,
> and ask him to use his words, but he refuses.
> How do I help him to understand that if he doesn't use
> his words, I don't know what he wants? Because I must
> not be explaining this well enough for him to
> understand.
> I feel like a bad mom. In a way this looks like a
> stupid thing to get upset about. It just bugs me.
>
> Danie
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Deb
Knowing his age would help greatly, as well as whether there are
other siblings in the picture (for instance, sometimes a new baby in
the house may cause an older child to revert back to a younger way
of behaving).
Instead of getting mad, how about learning a few actual signs? When
DS was younger (he's 8 now), we learned a few signs together
(triggered by Blue's Clues) and it's really handy. We still use some
of the basics (potty, cookie, drink, etc) when we're out someplace
noisy and need/want to communicate basic info.
Take the emphasis off of 'talking' and look to 'communicating' - is
what he is doing communicating his need/want to you? If it is, go
for it. If not, ask for a bit more detail on what it is - not
necessarily words, but maybe indicate size or whether the item he
wants is the cookie (food item) or the block (toy) that happen to be
near each other on the table, or whatever. Asking for more
information (not just words) and/or using signs are all
-communication-...speaking is not the only way to communicate. It
might be that you are a very verbal person (so am I, can you tell?
lol) but he is not. Words come easier for some than for others.
You say he refuses to talk "at times" - so he can speak when he
chooses to? What is it about the times he refuses? Is it when he's
already angry about something? When you've been angry with him
already? When he's feeling frustrated or unheard? When he's really
*excited* about something? Things to think about for yourself.
--Deb
other siblings in the picture (for instance, sometimes a new baby in
the house may cause an older child to revert back to a younger way
of behaving).
Instead of getting mad, how about learning a few actual signs? When
DS was younger (he's 8 now), we learned a few signs together
(triggered by Blue's Clues) and it's really handy. We still use some
of the basics (potty, cookie, drink, etc) when we're out someplace
noisy and need/want to communicate basic info.
Take the emphasis off of 'talking' and look to 'communicating' - is
what he is doing communicating his need/want to you? If it is, go
for it. If not, ask for a bit more detail on what it is - not
necessarily words, but maybe indicate size or whether the item he
wants is the cookie (food item) or the block (toy) that happen to be
near each other on the table, or whatever. Asking for more
information (not just words) and/or using signs are all
-communication-...speaking is not the only way to communicate. It
might be that you are a very verbal person (so am I, can you tell?
lol) but he is not. Words come easier for some than for others.
You say he refuses to talk "at times" - so he can speak when he
chooses to? What is it about the times he refuses? Is it when he's
already angry about something? When you've been angry with him
already? When he's feeling frustrated or unheard? When he's really
*excited* about something? Things to think about for yourself.
--Deb
Michelle Leifur Reid
On 10/22/06, D Smith <sandshuse@...> wrote:
before he could readily articulate what he wanted. We called it the
"point and grunt effect." It was sometimes very exacerbating because
I knew he knew the word and felt at times that he wasn't saying it on
purpose. But I new truly deep down inside that that was not it. Sure
he knew the word, but at that moment speaking the word was difficult
for him. The more frustrated I would get (because he would point in a
general direction, not a specific direction) the less he would say the
word at all.
I found that making a game out of it helped me *and* him. He did this
mostly with food as he couldn't reach the shelves in our pantry. So
we would stand in the pantry (we had a walk in pantry at the time) and
I would pick up each item in that general direction and say, "Cream of
wheat? You want cream of wheat? No? Hmmm. How about flour? Do you
want flour? Of course your mouth would get all powdery. Oh it isn't
flour? I know! You want jello. How could I not know you wanted
jel...not jello? Aha! I've got it! shredded wheat!" We would do
this for 5 or 10 minutes sometimes until we finally found it. By the
time we finally did, though, we were giggling rather than screaming.
The longer it would go the sillier it would get. And after a while
doing this (sometimes several times a day) he would better be able to
tell me what he was wanting.
Time oh give me time! I think that kids should be born with this
imprinted on their foreheads that only parents can see :-D
Michelle
> Since this little thing is driving me crazy, I'veI'm presuming that Parker is less than 5 years old? Keon was nearly 5
> decided to finally ask for help because nothing has
> helped. So, please help me change the way I look at
> this. Parker refuses to talk at times. Like if he
> wants something, instead of asking, he points and
> jumps up and down.
before he could readily articulate what he wanted. We called it the
"point and grunt effect." It was sometimes very exacerbating because
I knew he knew the word and felt at times that he wasn't saying it on
purpose. But I new truly deep down inside that that was not it. Sure
he knew the word, but at that moment speaking the word was difficult
for him. The more frustrated I would get (because he would point in a
general direction, not a specific direction) the less he would say the
word at all.
I found that making a game out of it helped me *and* him. He did this
mostly with food as he couldn't reach the shelves in our pantry. So
we would stand in the pantry (we had a walk in pantry at the time) and
I would pick up each item in that general direction and say, "Cream of
wheat? You want cream of wheat? No? Hmmm. How about flour? Do you
want flour? Of course your mouth would get all powdery. Oh it isn't
flour? I know! You want jello. How could I not know you wanted
jel...not jello? Aha! I've got it! shredded wheat!" We would do
this for 5 or 10 minutes sometimes until we finally found it. By the
time we finally did, though, we were giggling rather than screaming.
The longer it would go the sillier it would get. And after a while
doing this (sometimes several times a day) he would better be able to
tell me what he was wanting.
Time oh give me time! I think that kids should be born with this
imprinted on their foreheads that only parents can see :-D
Michelle
hanjkyla
> Since this little thing is driving me crazy, I'veI would provide him with pictures to use to communicate with.
> decided to finally ask for help because nothing has
> helped. So, please help me change the way I look at
> this. Parker refuses to talk at times. Like if he
> wants something, instead of asking, he points and
> jumps up and down. I've repeatedly asked him to use
> his words, which really just gets me mad. There are
> other times, though when I don't know what he wants,
> and ask him to use his words, but he refuses.
> How do I help him to understand that if he doesn't use
> his words, I don't know what he wants? Because I must
> not be explaining this well enough for him to
> understand.
> I feel like a bad mom. In a way this looks like a
> stupid thing to get upset about. It just bugs me.
>
> Danie
Its possible he is having word retrieval difficulty. The pictures
will allow you both to communicate without the frustration. PECS is
what the pictures are called that ASD kids use to communicate but
they can be used for any person. (I'm not suggesting your child is
on the spectrum.) I know in Chicago, for example, the EMT's use them
to communicate with patients who don't speak english.
http://www.dotolearn.com/picturecards/printcards/index.htm
HTH,
Samantha
Ren Allen
--- In [email protected], "Michelle Leifur Reid"
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
YOu need something, you WANT something and you're in a foreign
country. The people trying to help you are having trouble
understanding what your desire is. Instad of continuing to help, as
you get frustrated with the lack of communication, they get angry and
frustrated at YOU.
Think how incredibly difficult that would seem. Then transfer that to
a young child that doesn't have the ability to separate his mother's
feelings from his self-perception and you have a recipe for some
pretty sad feelings.
Help him.
Doesn't matter where his difficulty is, you are there to help. If your
whole job is making his life better/easier/more fun, then when he
can't speak (drop any preconceived notions that it's on purpose) he
needs more tools.
A little person isn't going to have a need, and then NOT find a way to
get that need met. He's trying his best. Think how difficult it is to
have someone mad at him for his percieved "deficiency".
If he couldn't multiply an amount for leaving a tip, or calculate how
many eggs he needed for a doubled recipe, or know how to spell a word,
would you get angry at him or just help him?
He doesn't have words. He needs your words to assist him right now (or
pictures, or signs or something other than frustration).
My Jalen didn't talk at ALL until he was three years old. My friends
all remember his point and "Tttthhhhhh" sound that went on for years.
If we didn't understand quickly, it became point and scream.
He talks fine now, after family members tisked and worried that he
needed speech therapy. Nooop, just time and patience.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
>Try to imagine this from his point of view.
> On 10/22/06, D Smith <sandshuse@...> wrote:
> > Since this little thing is driving me crazy, I've
> > decided to finally ask for help because nothing has
> > helped. So, please help me change the way I look at
> > this. Parker refuses to talk at times. Like if he
> > wants something, instead of asking, he points and
> > jumps up and down.
>
>
YOu need something, you WANT something and you're in a foreign
country. The people trying to help you are having trouble
understanding what your desire is. Instad of continuing to help, as
you get frustrated with the lack of communication, they get angry and
frustrated at YOU.
Think how incredibly difficult that would seem. Then transfer that to
a young child that doesn't have the ability to separate his mother's
feelings from his self-perception and you have a recipe for some
pretty sad feelings.
Help him.
Doesn't matter where his difficulty is, you are there to help. If your
whole job is making his life better/easier/more fun, then when he
can't speak (drop any preconceived notions that it's on purpose) he
needs more tools.
A little person isn't going to have a need, and then NOT find a way to
get that need met. He's trying his best. Think how difficult it is to
have someone mad at him for his percieved "deficiency".
If he couldn't multiply an amount for leaving a tip, or calculate how
many eggs he needed for a doubled recipe, or know how to spell a word,
would you get angry at him or just help him?
He doesn't have words. He needs your words to assist him right now (or
pictures, or signs or something other than frustration).
My Jalen didn't talk at ALL until he was three years old. My friends
all remember his point and "Tttthhhhhh" sound that went on for years.
If we didn't understand quickly, it became point and scream.
He talks fine now, after family members tisked and worried that he
needed speech therapy. Nooop, just time and patience.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
D Smith
First I want to say thanks for taking the time to help
me with my problem. I decided so there wouldnt be a
lot different replies to put them all in one.
Ren said Try to imagine this from his point of view.
YOu need something, you WANT something and you're in a
foreign country. The people trying to help you are
having trouble understanding what your desire is.
Instead of continuing to help, as you get frustrated
with the lack of communication, they get angry and
frustrated at YOU.
Ren, I understood that, before, but I think I needed
to see that again. Because, as Michelle said, I was
feeling that hes doing it on purpose. Although there
are times when I know he just doesnt know the word.
And hell say, that thing over and over again. While
Im clueless. I dont feel this is Parkers problem. I
dont think I made that clear enough. Its mine.
Ren said after family members tisked and worried that
he needed speech therapy. Nooop, just time and
patience.
Mine all worry about that because Parker is 5. I keep
telling them to back off. Even though I do have days
where I have my doubts.
Samantha, thanks for the great tip. I like the idea of
pictures.
Michelle said it was sometimes very exacerbating
because I knew he knew the word and felt at times that
he wasn't saying it on purpose. But I new truly deep
down inside that that was not it. Sure he knew the
word, but at that moment speaking the word was
difficult for him. The more frustrated I would get
(because he would point in a general direction, not a
specific direction) the less he would say the word at
all.
Sometimes I see that he doesnt know the word. I just
wish I had better coping skills for my frustration, so
that I can help him. And that we both dont melt down
together.
Deb said Take the emphasis off of 'talking' and look
to 'communicating' is what he is doing communicating
his need/want to you? If it is, go for it.
I feel like a dumb ass. Please excuse my use of words.
Because I was concentrating on the words. But yes, he
does effectively communicate even if he isnt talking.
I could never say that he doesnt get his point
across. Deb, I will be keeping the questions you asked
me on a card in my wallet so, that I can remind myself
of them. Maybe that will help keep the frustration
down.
Marji said So, when he goes into a silent period, see
if you can take a deep breath, find the thing about
him you love most and get in touch with that which
makes you feel joyful inside, and then *work* with him
in a joyful way.
This made me cry. Because Im sure even though I try
hard cover my anger at him not talking, Im sure it
shows. This is another thing, Im putting on a card in
my wallet. Or some where in our new place so I can be
reminded. Or maybe just a list of all the things I
love about him. Which are many.
I just want to say, that Im happy to have found this
list and the other unschooling lists. I know that by
asking, someone is going to tell me what I need. And
Im always finding new ways of looking at situations.
Although sometimes, even if I know the answer I still
need to see it. So, thank you for all the help.
If we took a holiday... Took some time to celebrate... Just one day out of life... It would be so nice...
Danie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
me with my problem. I decided so there wouldnt be a
lot different replies to put them all in one.
Ren said Try to imagine this from his point of view.
YOu need something, you WANT something and you're in a
foreign country. The people trying to help you are
having trouble understanding what your desire is.
Instead of continuing to help, as you get frustrated
with the lack of communication, they get angry and
frustrated at YOU.
Ren, I understood that, before, but I think I needed
to see that again. Because, as Michelle said, I was
feeling that hes doing it on purpose. Although there
are times when I know he just doesnt know the word.
And hell say, that thing over and over again. While
Im clueless. I dont feel this is Parkers problem. I
dont think I made that clear enough. Its mine.
Ren said after family members tisked and worried that
he needed speech therapy. Nooop, just time and
patience.
Mine all worry about that because Parker is 5. I keep
telling them to back off. Even though I do have days
where I have my doubts.
Samantha, thanks for the great tip. I like the idea of
pictures.
Michelle said it was sometimes very exacerbating
because I knew he knew the word and felt at times that
he wasn't saying it on purpose. But I new truly deep
down inside that that was not it. Sure he knew the
word, but at that moment speaking the word was
difficult for him. The more frustrated I would get
(because he would point in a general direction, not a
specific direction) the less he would say the word at
all.
Sometimes I see that he doesnt know the word. I just
wish I had better coping skills for my frustration, so
that I can help him. And that we both dont melt down
together.
Deb said Take the emphasis off of 'talking' and look
to 'communicating' is what he is doing communicating
his need/want to you? If it is, go for it.
I feel like a dumb ass. Please excuse my use of words.
Because I was concentrating on the words. But yes, he
does effectively communicate even if he isnt talking.
I could never say that he doesnt get his point
across. Deb, I will be keeping the questions you asked
me on a card in my wallet so, that I can remind myself
of them. Maybe that will help keep the frustration
down.
Marji said So, when he goes into a silent period, see
if you can take a deep breath, find the thing about
him you love most and get in touch with that which
makes you feel joyful inside, and then *work* with him
in a joyful way.
This made me cry. Because Im sure even though I try
hard cover my anger at him not talking, Im sure it
shows. This is another thing, Im putting on a card in
my wallet. Or some where in our new place so I can be
reminded. Or maybe just a list of all the things I
love about him. Which are many.
I just want to say, that Im happy to have found this
list and the other unschooling lists. I know that by
asking, someone is going to tell me what I need. And
Im always finding new ways of looking at situations.
Although sometimes, even if I know the answer I still
need to see it. So, thank you for all the help.
If we took a holiday... Took some time to celebrate... Just one day out of life... It would be so nice...
Danie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Ren Allen
--- In [email protected], D Smith <sandshuse@...> wrote:
Ah yes. That's a feeling that can really be a stumbling block for me
too. Whenever I see my child as doing his/her very best in the
moment, as a struggling soul that needs me, I can respond so much better.
When it feels like a purposeful thing (even if the behavior IS on
purpose from their point of view...like Jalen poking at a sibling) I
don't respond as well. It helps me to reframe the behavior as "he's
trying his best, he needs my help right now"
It's hard, but it does get easier as you practive it in difficult
moments. Trying to shift how I feel about the actual behavior helps me
stay calm and centered. I think sometimes because of societal
expectations or age expectations it can revert us to "WHY is he/she
doing this?" instead of the "he/she is doing their best, they need my
help" view.
Maybe you were feeling a bit of angst due to age or other people's
expectations? That can cause us to move away from really being with
the child in the moment. If I can just see my Jalen (or whoever is
having the difficulty) and what he needs right now, that helps me stay
centered too....no expectations, no outside pressure. Just a small
person that needs me.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
>Because, as Michelle said, I wasfeeling that he's doing it on purpose. <
Ah yes. That's a feeling that can really be a stumbling block for me
too. Whenever I see my child as doing his/her very best in the
moment, as a struggling soul that needs me, I can respond so much better.
When it feels like a purposeful thing (even if the behavior IS on
purpose from their point of view...like Jalen poking at a sibling) I
don't respond as well. It helps me to reframe the behavior as "he's
trying his best, he needs my help right now"
It's hard, but it does get easier as you practive it in difficult
moments. Trying to shift how I feel about the actual behavior helps me
stay calm and centered. I think sometimes because of societal
expectations or age expectations it can revert us to "WHY is he/she
doing this?" instead of the "he/she is doing their best, they need my
help" view.
Maybe you were feeling a bit of angst due to age or other people's
expectations? That can cause us to move away from really being with
the child in the moment. If I can just see my Jalen (or whoever is
having the difficulty) and what he needs right now, that helps me stay
centered too....no expectations, no outside pressure. Just a small
person that needs me.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: dialog@...
For instance, suggesting you go eat an ice cream after/before some
activity the child doesn't really want to go, but was promised to the
sisters. It doesn't really feel "mean" to me, but I still don't know
were you draw the line (if you draw a line) between persuation and
manipulation or .... manipulation and just "being thankful that your
child gave you some of his valuable time to complete a 'needed' task"...
-=-=-=-
Consensus. What will make it work for *everyone*?
Pam Genant has a Consensual Living e-list. Pam? a link?
I often suggest lunch out when I have a bunch of errands to do. It's a
treat for all of us. It's a well-needed break in the midst of running
around---especially of it's a sit-down place. And it often helps to
move folks out the door! <g>
If I can so something to make an outing pleasant that would normally be
painful, I'll do what I can to please those with me.
When we travel long distances or for long periods of time, we'll each
choose what ONE thing we don't want to miss---that way we each have
something to look forwar to even if we *have* to do something not so
cool for others. We're working TOGETHER to make it as fun as we can for
*all* of us.
Last year we drove the car while Ben and a friend rode their bikes up
the Natchez Trace. Duncan likes to stay in B&Bs, Cameron wanted to see
Elvis' birthplace and film the trip, I wanted to see the old towns and
homes all along the trace (including a Frank Lloyd Wright house), and
Ben wanted to ride with Stewart.
-=-=-=-=-=-=
But if I tell this to a say 2-year
old or 3-year old, I *know* he doesn't really know what it means to
go the bank, stay there sitting still or having nothing to do, being
bored and so on, and it feels like "betraying" him if I say things
like "afterwards we can go eat ice cream", and it may feel arbitrary
aswell(?).
I'm a bit confused about this and would like to read your thoughts on
this.
-=-=-=-
You feel you're "betraying" him if you go get ice cream???
Most parents would just tell him to "suck it up and get over it.
Errands have to be done. That's the way it is. Stop whining."
I think offering something that he likes to do *in addition to* the
things you feel are necessary simply allows him to see that you're
taking his feelings into consideration---even as a little guy.
Eventually he'll *LIKE* to go to the bank! <g>
If my choices were to go to the post office and go home OR go to the
post office, get ice cream, and then go home---well, it's not much of a
question which one *I* would pick! <g>
~Kelly
"Wisdom begins in Wonder." ~Socrates
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: dialog@...
For instance, suggesting you go eat an ice cream after/before some
activity the child doesn't really want to go, but was promised to the
sisters. It doesn't really feel "mean" to me, but I still don't know
were you draw the line (if you draw a line) between persuation and
manipulation or .... manipulation and just "being thankful that your
child gave you some of his valuable time to complete a 'needed' task"...
-=-=-=-
Consensus. What will make it work for *everyone*?
Pam Genant has a Consensual Living e-list. Pam? a link?
I often suggest lunch out when I have a bunch of errands to do. It's a
treat for all of us. It's a well-needed break in the midst of running
around---especially of it's a sit-down place. And it often helps to
move folks out the door! <g>
If I can so something to make an outing pleasant that would normally be
painful, I'll do what I can to please those with me.
When we travel long distances or for long periods of time, we'll each
choose what ONE thing we don't want to miss---that way we each have
something to look forwar to even if we *have* to do something not so
cool for others. We're working TOGETHER to make it as fun as we can for
*all* of us.
Last year we drove the car while Ben and a friend rode their bikes up
the Natchez Trace. Duncan likes to stay in B&Bs, Cameron wanted to see
Elvis' birthplace and film the trip, I wanted to see the old towns and
homes all along the trace (including a Frank Lloyd Wright house), and
Ben wanted to ride with Stewart.
-=-=-=-=-=-=
But if I tell this to a say 2-year
old or 3-year old, I *know* he doesn't really know what it means to
go the bank, stay there sitting still or having nothing to do, being
bored and so on, and it feels like "betraying" him if I say things
like "afterwards we can go eat ice cream", and it may feel arbitrary
aswell(?).
I'm a bit confused about this and would like to read your thoughts on
this.
-=-=-=-
You feel you're "betraying" him if you go get ice cream???
Most parents would just tell him to "suck it up and get over it.
Errands have to be done. That's the way it is. Stop whining."
I think offering something that he likes to do *in addition to* the
things you feel are necessary simply allows him to see that you're
taking his feelings into consideration---even as a little guy.
Eventually he'll *LIKE* to go to the bank! <g>
If my choices were to go to the post office and go home OR go to the
post office, get ice cream, and then go home---well, it's not much of a
question which one *I* would pick! <g>
~Kelly
"Wisdom begins in Wonder." ~Socrates
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.