Maisha Khalfani

Greetings -

how do you all counter the claims that unschooling doesn't foster discipline or responsibility or respect? That me doing for my children "too much" will cause them to think that they should be waited on hand and foot? What do I say when someone says "chores teach them to be responsible" (that's usually my husband). I'm not sure what to say because I guess I still believe that, having been raised that way - that the family works together to keep it going. Right now as I am moving my family into RU, the only one "working" is me. If I assigned chores the kids would be upset, but I would have help. I feel overwhelmed with it all sometimes. How do I move away from that type of thinking?

And how do I grow and counter my own feelings of resentment because I am picking up and cleaning up after 5 children? How did you come through this process where you felt at peace with it all? What can I do for myself to help myself feel at peace while I'm wiping up someone's spill that they left? And so that I don't feel like maid, cook, etc.? Usually I wake up chipper, ready to be mindful and gentle....and by the end of the day I'm exhausted from all of the requests, their bickering, the "we don't hurt our family", the cleaning up, the "mommy can you make me....fill-in-the-blank"......and then I'm all snappy and just want to be left alone.

These feelings are a huge hurdle (not my last hurdle, just a huge one) towards fully embracing unschooling.


Namaste
Maisha
Khalfani Family Adventures
"The period of greatest gain in knowledge and experience is the most difficult period in one's life" ~ The Dalai Lama








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maisha Khalfani

Greetings -

how do you all counter the claims that unschooling doesn't foster discipline or responsibility or respect? That me doing for my children "too much" will cause them to think that they should be waited on hand and foot? For instance....after I do the laundry should they put their clothes away or should I? And if I ask for their help and they say "no" then I have to put away clothes for at least 5-6 individuals. icky for me. Or if I request help in cleaning up the living room, and my daughter (8) or so (7) whine and say "I don't want to" or "do I have to?" and then I clean up their toys......What do I say when someone says "chores teach them to be responsible" (that's usually my husband). I'm not sure what to say because I guess I still believe that, having been raised that way - that the family works together to keep it going. Right now as I am moving my family into RU, the only one "working" is me. If I assigned chores the kids would be upset, but I would have
help. I feel overwhelmed with it all sometimes. How do I move away from that type of thinking?

And how do I grow and counter my own feelings of resentment because I am picking up and cleaning up after 5 children? How did you come through this process where you felt at peace with it all? What can I do for myself to help myself feel at peace while I'm wiping up someone's spill that they left? And so that I don't feel like maid, cook, etc.? Usually I wake up chipper, ready to be mindful and gentle....and by the end of the day I'm exhausted from all of the requests, their bickering, the "we don't hurt our family", the cleaning up, the "mommy can you make me....fill-in-the-blank"......and then I'm all snappy and just want to be left alone.

These feelings are a huge hurdle (not my last hurdle, just a huge one) towards fully embracing unschooling.


Namaste
Maisha
Khalfani Family Adventures
"The period of greatest gain in knowledge and experience is the most difficult period in one's life" ~ The Dalai Lama








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~What can I do for myself to help
myself feel at peace while I'm wiping up someone's spill that they left?~~

I'm just going to answer this part briefly because Sierra wants the
computer now.:)
Most of the time, I see spills and such as part of mothering, so it's
no big deal (mind you, the older boys generally help with that but I
have two youngers also). BUT, when I'm tired, or feeling overwhelmed
or whatever I just imagine that person NOT being with me.

I can actually shift from a feeling of tiredness to a feeling of
gratefulness very quickly that way. I have some of Hannah Jenner's
ashes sitting on my bedside table right now. That's a pretty poignant
reminder that I am VERY lucky to have spills to clean up...they're a
sign of healthy, growing, busy children that are learning every day
right here with me. I'm so blessed.

Sometimes I grab a rag and say "hey, that spill needs a rag" and the
child WANTS to clean it up. More often than not, I just help my
younger ones because it can feel overwhelming for them.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Momma

I know this may be a stupid question, but have you talked to your kids about
how you are feeling? I mean really sat down with them? Talk to them about
all that you do. Give details that they may not see, or have just become so
used to seeing you do it that they just don't notice. Tell them how
exhausted you feel come the end of the day and that one person really can't
do it all. You don't have to make it sound like a guilt trip. Just be
honest. I have had this conversation with my kids before and it really
helped. We all live here. We all make messes. When I am really overwhelmed
and need to get it under control because of company coming or just sanity:-)
I ask for help. I believe that everyone's happiness and comfort in the
family is important, even the mom. If my husband or a long term guest were
leaving messes and expecting me to clean up after them all the time I would
have an issue with that. I don't feel that there is anything wrong with
saying, "Hey guys, the living room is trashed. Please come clean up your
stuff so that we can walk through there." Or "Guys you made a huge mess in
my bathroom, please come clean it up." I don't think it is unreasonable to
ask others to clean up their own messes. Now, let me also say that I am the
first one to lend a hand if one of my children need my help and it's way
more often than not that I am in there with them helping out. I do the bulk
of the cleaning around the house because having a clean and orderly house is
important to me. I don't think it's right to push that on other people. But
I do think that cleaning up you own messes is just part of life, unless of
course you live alone. All I ask is that we keep the common areas of the
house picked up out of respect and consideration for all who live here. With
as many children as you have I can imagine that the house can become a
disaster in a New York second.

You might also try to come up with a way to streamline the housework a
little more. Get the kids in on it. Make it a family thing instead of a mom
thing. Our homes need regular maintenance just like a car, our bodies, and
our relationships. If you were the only one driving your car you would be
responsible for the maintenance but a home is for many peoples enjoyment.

I struggled with laundry for many years. When I finally sat down with the
family and talked to them about what a hard time I was having we decided
that it might be easier to do the laundry one day a week instead of a little
at a time. They enjoy helping most of the time. Sometimes I don't think they
really want to but they usually do anyway. We do things to help each other
out. Not everything that someone else wants to do is something that we might
want to do but that's okay. Example-We go fishing with my husband pretty
often. The kids and I don't really like fishing but we go cuz it makes dad
happy. It's like a little gift to him. I don't care for hockey much but my
son loves it so I watch with him. I think I've gotten off track here but my
point is when a family has a real give and take relationship with each other
it flows over naturally to other things. Also, you do have a lot of
children. Do you think your standards could be lowered for a while? Are
there some things that aren't really that important? And also consider your
timing. Are you asking them to help when they are in the middle of something
else? I wouldn't want to be interrupted when I'm in the middle of something
to do something that could wait.

Hope this helps,

Dawn



_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisha Khalfani
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] responsibility, discipline, and resentment



Greetings -

how do you all counter the claims that unschooling doesn't foster discipline
or responsibility or respect? That me doing for my children "too much" will
cause them to think that they should be waited on hand and foot? For
instance....after I do the laundry should they put their clothes away or
should I? And if I ask for their help and they say "no" then I have to put
away clothes for at least 5-6 individuals. icky for me. Or if I request help
in cleaning up the living room, and my daughter (8) or so (7) whine and say
"I don't want to" or "do I have to?" and then I clean up their
toys......What do I say when someone says "chores teach them to be
responsible" (that's usually my husband). I'm not sure what to say because I
guess I still believe that, having been raised that way - that the family
works together to keep it going. Right now as I am moving my family into RU,
the only one "working" is me. If I assigned chores the kids would be upset,
but I would have
help. I feel overwhelmed with it all sometimes. How do I move away from that
type of thinking?

And how do I grow and counter my own feelings of resentment because I am
picking up and cleaning up after 5 children? How did you come through this
process where you felt at peace with it all? What can I do for myself to
help myself feel at peace while I'm wiping up someone's spill that they
left? And so that I don't feel like maid, cook, etc.? Usually I wake up
chipper, ready to be mindful and gentle....and by the end of the day I'm
exhausted from all of the requests, their bickering, the "we don't hurt our
family", the cleaning up, the "mommy can you make
me....fill-in-the-blank"......and then I'm all snappy and just want to be
left alone.

These feelings are a huge hurdle (not my last hurdle, just a huge one)
towards fully embracing unschooling.

Namaste
Maisha
Khalfani Family Adventures
"The period of greatest gain in knowledge and experience is the most
difficult period in one's life" ~ The Dalai Lama



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tina

We recently went through this phase of transition more toward
radical unschooling. Our home is very much like that which Dawn
described, but it did take a little to get there.

You sound like you are at a spot that I am very familiar with. The
thing that moved us forward was my realization that it is okay to
ask for help. The key is to give freedom in the request. Examples:

"Please bring the dirty dishes down when you are finished watching
your show."

"Can you make sure the trash is out before you go to bed?"

"When you get a chance, could you please pick up the mess in the
bathroom."

I think you get the idea. You'll find that initially it may be
necessary to remind of your request. It is also important to choose
your wording so that it's appropriate for the other person's
personality. Do they respond better to statements or requests?
Things like that.

Also, note that this "style" of communication gives freedom. There
is actually an open door for discussion. It is essential that you
are open to the exchange should there be one.

Once you make this trasition you will wonder why you ever did
anything different. My USers are 12, 14 and 16. We just made this
transition in the last year with having raised them alongside their
four older sisters VERY traditionally. The 14 year old just came
home from PS in April, and the 16 year old will have been home a
year this December. The 12 year old is a veteran USer.

My husband is still very traditional, but I have noticed changes in
him as well. I think just modeling the positive interaction with
the kids is helping. I step in here and there when things are a
little too off for me, but in the end the kids have their own
relationship with their dad.

It REALLY does get better. Seriously, ask for help. You'll be
amazed. OH - Another thing...DON'T FORGET YOURSELF! Are you doing
things that you like to do? How are you spending your time?
Focusing on your likes and asking for help are two BIG keys.

Hugs - Tina

marji

--- In [email protected], "Tina"
<zoocrew@...> wrote:
>
> The thing that moved us forward was my realization that it is
> okay to ask for help. The key is to give freedom in the
> request. Examples:
>
> "Please bring the dirty dishes down when you are finished
> watching your show."
>
> "Can you make sure the trash is out before you go to bed?"
>
> "When you get a chance, could you please pick up the mess in
> the bathroom."


Also, the more specific and lighthearted you can be in your
requesting, the better received your request will be. I am not
inclined want to help someone who is snarky towards me, and I
wouldn't expect my son to be, either. So, I'll ask for help this
way:

"Liam, it'd be helpful if you could pick the sleeping bags up off
the floor when you get the chance. Just put them on the bed and
I'll roll them up when I can get to it."

Asking him to straighten up the living room is too grand a task
and can be overwhelming. But, asking him to pick up all the yu-
gi-oh cards, or to make a path so I can walk through is a self-
limiting request and it's something he can do. And, many times
he'll keep going beyond the request. Because *he* wants to.

But, I accept "no." Sometimes, he's really involved in something
else that's more important that my request. I know that he wants
to help me whenever he can, and he knows that I want to help
him whenever I can, but sometimes I can't and sometimes he
can't. We have that understanding.

Used to be when he was much younger that he just didn't want to
do these things. So, I said, "OK." I knew that he would when he
felt ready to. And, he does! I definitely subscribe to Ren's
recently stated philosophy! I felt so blessed to have a mess to
clean up; it meant that I had a happy, healthy, thriving, joyful
little person in my midst, and I didn't want to waste any of the
time we have together grousing over stupid stuff (like my need to
have a path through the living room - especially when I could
just make that path myself).


Marji

Alice Roddy

Re: responsibility, discipline, and resentment

Starting with the first item, responsibility, the question
is what you are responsible for in regard to your children. I suggest that you
are responsible only for things that they can�t do for themselves. For example,
babies can�t toilet themselves so we do it for them. Then there is the
transitional period when they can with help but ultimately we realize that they
can consistently take care of themselves (unless they are sick) and we leave it
to them.




Similarly with toys, in the beginning we take out the toys
and we put them away but when they start taking out the toys, they can help put
them away and ultimately we can say, �You got it out, you put it away.� A cautionary
note here in that if they have been taking toys out all day, the task of
putting them all away all at once is overwhelming. Taking the time several
times during the day to help them put away the toys they are finished with should
hasten the day when they think in terms of �take it out, work with it, and put
it away� as an unbroken continuum.





When children begin selecting the clothing they want to
wear, they can begin to accept some responsibility for its care. They can have
some input. Do they want clothes in dressers drawers or would they rather have
them in bins or laundry baskets? Do they want to put dirty clothes in a hamper
in the bathroom, a basket in their room, or some other arrangement?





Messes in common areas impose on others. If living space
permits, children may benefit by having an area that is theirs alone and may be
maintained anyway they see fit.





As for discipline, it comes from the same root at disciple (which
means a follower) and that root means to teach. In our society we tend to
confuse discipline with punishment. However punishment isn�t a factor unless
discipline fails and the child isn�t following.





We encourage children to explore and master their world.
Part of that is stewardship, learning how to take care of the things in their charge.
Putting away ones toys or clothes isn�t really any different than recycling
cans, bottles and paper.





As for our resentment of our children, like physical pain,
it�s a warning signal that something is going wrong and needs our attention. I
got myself into situations where I felt resentful because while the kids were
happily entertaining themselves, I just let them until they clearly needed my
attention. Being on top of things so as to be able to provide guidance at
appropriate times takes a lot of energy initially but pays off in the long run.





I hope this is of some help.





Alice
Roddy






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tina

<<Also, the more specific and lighthearted you can be in your
requesting, the better received your request will be. I am not
inclined want to help someone who is snarky towards me, and I
wouldn't expect my son to be, either.>>

Great point. It is especially important to pay attention to tone of
voice and facial expression when asking for help. It was/is essential
for our personal situation with having teens new to homeschooling AND
unschooling. They were used to something totally different in PS, so
I have really had to be a "good" example.

I try to remember to think about how I would feel before I speak that
way I have less of a chance of coming off "wrong". I also remember to
apologize when I flub it up. We have had some real bumpy spots with
everyone learning to get along and respect each other's personal
space. I've learned a lot about inflection, expression, volume and
conversation. We are all learning together.

Tina

Cara

>>how do you all counter the claims that unschooling doesn't foster
discipline or responsibility or respect? That me doing for my
children "too much" will cause them to think that they should be
waited on hand and foot? What do I say when someone says "chores
teach them to be responsible" (that's usually my husband).

I've been at the unschooling lifestyle for 3 months, so I'm no
expert. But letting go of my control issues and allowing my
children the freedom to say no has actually helped them get involved.

I discussed that the common areas of the house - living room, dining
area and kitchen are for everyone to enjoy. If they make a mess
while making toast or popping popcorn they need to clean up and if
they need help with the mess to ask and it will be given.

As for their rooms and the sunroom we have (its our resource room -
puzzles, games, toys, building blocks, etc) they can make a mess all
they want. They put clothes in a basket if they want them washed
and many times they want to help sort them or throw them in the
machine.

The other night my 7 yo went through the kitchen, living and dining
rooms and straighten things up. I didn't ask or even suggest it.
But she said that since I helped her put her clean clothes away and
sort out some toys without bugging her, she wanted to help me by
picking up dishes, pillows and wiping the counters.

So I guess my response would be that when you treat your child with
respect and allow them to say no, they will return the respect and
develop their sense of responsibility. I'm not sure about the
discipline though - I think that self-discipline comes with knowing
what you want and how to get there and guiding yourself in order to
obtain it. My girls are 7 & 5 and they are just learning about the
discipline of saving and spending money for things they want.

Blessings,
Cara :)

laura g

My kids are still pretty young but i think it helps for them to hear a
reason for the activity as well. I ask them to feed the dog i preface it
with "i think Ursa is hungry, would you please feed her". " I think watching
a movie would be fun but lets clean up some toys so we have a place to sit.
Would you pick up 10 toys and I will pick up 10". I find this works sooo
much better than, we arent watching a movie till the toys are picked up so
do it kind of attitute. for our young kids we also have a chart. it has
several things that are nice for them to do on it and other than not putting
a check on it there is no consequence if they dont and no real reward if
they do except they like putting checks on it and filling it in. we talk
about it if they filled up the chart but if they choose not to do something
i dont push it. one of their activities is feeding the dog. some nights
they dont but many nights they do. it just serves as a reminder like the
lists i make myself all over the place.


>From: "Tina" <zoocrew@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: responsibility, discipline, and resentment
>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:03:54 -0000
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>
><<Also, the more specific and lighthearted you can be in your
>requesting, the better received your request will be. I am not
>inclined want to help someone who is snarky towards me, and I
>wouldn't expect my son to be, either.>>
>
>Great point. It is especially important to pay attention to tone of
>voice and facial expression when asking for help. It was/is essential
>for our personal situation with having teens new to homeschooling AND
>unschooling. They were used to something totally different in PS, so
>I have really had to be a "good" example.
>
>I try to remember to think about how I would feel before I speak that
>way I have less of a chance of coming off "wrong". I also remember to
>apologize when I flub it up. We have had some real bumpy spots with
>everyone learning to get along and respect each other's personal
>space. I've learned a lot about inflection, expression, volume and
>conversation. We are all learning together.
>
>Tina
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more�then map the best
route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001

Manisha Kher

--- laura g <lalow@...> wrote:

> My kids are still pretty young but i think it helps
> for them to hear a
> reason for the activity as well.
This is true about my kids too! For example, they
build forts on the sofa with a number of extra
cushions. If I come in and say, "put away those
cushions", I'm met with a lot of resentment. But if I
say, "I've no place to sit", they make space for me by
putting away some of cushions.

They really don't like to pick up simply to have the
room clean. But they pick if we're having friends over
or to make room to build large train tracks.

I also ask for help with folding laundry and putting
it away. I don't always get it and I don't mind that.
Sometimes I point out that we'll have more time to
play if the task is done quicker.

Manisha


__________________________________________________
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Manisha Kher

--- Alice Roddy <amar0514412000@...> wrote:

> Re: responsibility, discipline, and resentment
>
> Starting with the first item, responsibility, the
> question
> is what you are responsible for in regard to your
> children. I suggest that you
> are responsible only for things that they can’t do
> for themselves.
I don't agree with this at all. I'm capable of doing a
great many things that dh does for me anyway and vice
versa. Why should the rule be any different for my
kids? For example, my kids can get dressed by
themselves, but sometimes they want me to help them.

Manisha

__________________________________________________
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Vickisue Gray

Does it count that I henna my daughter's hair neon pink because she asks me to?


----- Original Message ----
From: Manisha Kher <m_kher@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 4:25:26 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: responsibility, discipline, and resentment



--- Alice Roddy <amar0514412000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

> Re: responsibility, discipline, and resentment
>
> Starting with the first item, responsibility, the
> question
> is what you are responsible for in regard to your
> children. I suggest that you
> are responsible only for things that they can�t do
> for themselves.
I don't agree with this at all. I'm capable of doing a
great many things that dh does for me anyway and vice
versa. Why should the rule be any different for my
kids? For example, my kids can get dressed by
themselves, but sometimes they want me to help them.

Manisha

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail. yahoo.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Johanna

Dear Cara and List,

Am 20.10.2006 um 19:25 schrieb Cara:
> The other night my 7 yo went through the kitchen, living and dining
> rooms and straighten things up. I didn't ask or even suggest it.
> But she said that since I helped her put her clean clothes away and
> sort out some toys without bugging her, she wanted to help me by
> picking up dishes, pillows and wiping the counters.
>
> So I guess my response would be that when you treat your child with
> respect and allow them to say no, they will return the respect and
> develop their sense of responsibility.


When I first started unschooling late august, I had the same
experience. My daughter seemed so thankful for the respect and
freedom I gave her, that she helped a lot even without asking. But it
didn't last long. Since it has become normal she doesn't move a
finger, not even in her room, she always says "no" when I ask (and I
don't even ask anymore), she's disrespectful, unfriendly and
demanding. If she's angry because something doesn't work her way
she'll get grumpy and extremely unfriendly (blaming us for things
that aren't our fault). If we react grumpy (which is extremely
difficult not to! I find it quite natural and it's hard to control
yourself when you're talked to like that), she'll yell "I won't speak
to you like that" "leave me alone" etc. Even afterwards when
everything has calmed down and I come and try to talk about it, she
won't say anything. It has become very diffult. I have no idea how to
meet this.

I still trust (though sometimes it's hard ;-) ) that it will change
over time, we've progressed in other areas instead. I believe I'm
doing something wrong.

Greetings
Johanna

Johanna

Hello,
Am 20.10.2006 um 18:36 schrieb Alice Roddy:

> Starting with the first item, responsibility, the question
> is what you are responsible for in regard to your children. I
> suggest that you
> are responsible only for things that they can’t do for themselves.
> For example,
> babies can’t toilet themselves so we do it for them. Then there is the
> transitional period when they can with help but ultimately we
> realize that they
> can consistently take care of themselves (unless they are sick) and
> we leave it
> to them.

But isn't there also a transitional period when they theoretically
*can* do something, but it's too much to ask for? For instance, for
YEARS , since she was 3 or so, I insisted on her cleaning up her
room! (shame on me!) Because she "could", so why would I do it? after
like... 4 years we STILL had annoying discussions about it EVERY DAY
and had gone through 1000 different "systems" to make her do it. It
didn't work. Now I know that she just wasn't ready for it, and still
isn't. I can't expect from such a young child to do it, even if she
theoretically "can". It's just so difficult sometimes to realize that
they just "look" as if they "could" do it, but can. Same is when it
comes to social behaviour, being friendly and so on I guess. They can
but they can't....

Greetings
Johanna

Cara

> When I first started unschooling late august, I had the same
> experience. My daughter seemed so thankful for the respect and
> freedom I gave her, that she helped a lot even without asking. But
> it didn't last long.

It's not always roses here either. Many times I get the "leave me
alone" as well. But usually this is my daugther's trigger for
something else - many times it has nothing to do with cleaning up
our common areas in the house.

> she's disrespectful, unfriendly and
> demanding. If she's angry because something doesn't work her way
> she'll get grumpy and extremely unfriendly (blaming us for things
> that aren't our fault).

When this happens with my daughter, I try to cool off first before
approaching the situation if necessary. Then I empathize with her
feelings "You sound very angry/frustrated/etc" I explain that while
I know something may be difficult/frustrating/etc that I don't like
to be talked to in that manner. I offer my assistance/hugs/etc if
needed. Sometimes she will want to be alone in her room (something
she chooses - maybe because I choose to be alone to cool off). Then
we talk and discuss other ways of both getting what we need/want.

If this is a new thing at home, she may be testing your resolve to
see if things really have changed. I know my daughter did that for
a while too. My daughter needed to hear that we are going to do
thing differently from before, it may take a while to get used to,
but we both need to learn to talk to each other, respect each other
and learn to talk to get a win/win situation.

Blessings,
Cara :)

Ren Allen

~~ Starting with the first item, responsibility, the
> question
> is what you are responsible for in regard to your
> children. I suggest that you
> are responsible only for things that they can't do
> for themselves.

I don't agree with this at all. I'm capable of doing a
great many things that dh does for me anyway and vice
versa. Why should the rule be any different for my
kids? For example, my kids can get dressed by
themselves, but sometimes they want me to help them.~~

I don't agree either. If my dh just said "you're capable of cleaning
up the kitchen after yourself, so do it" I would hugely resent that.
He just helps clean. In fact, he comes in when we're all done cleaning
and cleans!:) His standard is much higher than ours, but he sees it as
his issue and takes care of it.

I remember as a teen my room would get waaaaay out of hand. Sure, I
looked "capable" so my Mom nagged me about getting it cleaned up, but
inside I felt overwhelmed. Much better for the relationship if she'd
just said "wow, that room is looking pretty messy do you want some
help?" and left it up to me.

My Grandma did that. I would call her and she'd come clean all day
with me, organizing and helping me get my room back in shape. I loved
those times with her because it was a joint effort without a bunch of
judgement.

Much better for relationships if WE don't decide what another person
should or should not be able to handle. They will let us know by
actually doing the activity or not. Approaching household tasks as
partners is much healthier for the parent-child relationship and
radical unschooling is built on relationships.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Danielle Conger

Ren Allen wrote:
>
> My Grandma did that. I would call her and she'd come clean all day
> with me, organizing and helping me get my room back in shape. I loved
> those times with her because it was a joint effort without a bunch of
> judgement.
>

Wow, Ren. That is such an incredibly beautiful and powerful image! Thank
you so much for writing about it! I just love the images of connection
and care that it evokes for me.


--
~~Danielle
Emily (9), Julia (7), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org

Tina

> Also, the more specific and lighthearted you can be in your
> requesting, the better received your request will be. I am not
> inclined want to help someone who is snarky towards me, and I
> wouldn't expect my son to be, either. So, I'll ask for help this
> way:
>
> "Liam, it'd be helpful if you could pick the sleeping bags up off
> the floor when you get the chance. Just put them on the bed and
> I'll roll them up when I can get to it."
>
> Asking him to straighten up the living room is too grand a task
> and can be overwhelming. But, asking him to pick up all the yu-
> gi-oh cards, or to make a path so I can walk through is a self-
> limiting request and it's something he can do. And, many times
> he'll keep going beyond the request. Because *he* wants to.


I'd like to make another comment here as well. A lot of what's
being offered in the way of example and suggestion is geared toward
younger children. In my home it's teens, two being VERY new to
unschooling and freedom, and it is counter productive to get too
wordy. They seem to respond best to simple requests asked politely
with the freedom to question.

My previous examples were simple because they work for our home. If
I ask, "Would you mind taking the trash out for me?", the kids know
it's okay to ask for more detail like, "Is it okay if I do it
later?"...or whatever. They know they don't just have to go do what
mom wants like a little robot.

I try to be very selective about what I ask for help with and when.
Timing is VERY important. Wording is important. I can see that
such a simple statement would be frustrating to a younger, always
USed child, but for my new-to-it teens it seems to be what is
positive for them.

HTH - Tina

jlh44music

"Tina" <zoocrew@...> wrote:
>In my home it's teens, two being VERY new to unschooling and
freedom, and it is counter productive to get too wordy. They seem
to respond best to simple requests asked politely with the freedom
to question.>>>

This is the case in our home too, a teen new to unschooling. My
mother was fanatical and obsessive about cleaning and I have
memories of being nagged to clean my room and help out around the
house. Since I've been on my own, even before discovering
unschooling, I tend to lean more to the opposite. My house isn't
a pigstye, but I'm more relaxed about cleaning and can ignore a lot
of things. DH on the other hand gets annoyed, but he's pretty good
at just doing it (he loves cleaning the bathrooms and toilets, maybe
not as thoroughly as I'd like, but I never complain!). DD will
bring her dishes down stairs voluntarily every day as she likes to
eat in her room while on the computer. As far as her room goes,
she doesn't think it's too bad, but it's a small room and can look
cluttered fairly quickly and she's also not big on putting clean
clothes away, they tend to stay in a pile on her bureau etc. so once
in a while I'll ask if she wants me to help her collect the trash
and straighten things out, change the sheets (she's got a queen size
bed in the corner so it's easier with 2 people doing it) etc.
Sometimes she wants to do it herself (which often means just pushing
things under the bed!) and sometimes she welcomes my help. I try to
be aware of how I word things and also to be sensitive to how
welcome my offer of help is being received on any given day (the
timing you mentioned, Tina!). I find it best to be flexible. It's
only a room, 50 years from now it's really not going to make a
difference whether or not she always had an immaculate room, but how
I interact with my child IS.
Jann

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: maitai373@...

how do you all counter the claims that unschooling doesn't foster
discipline
or responsibility or respect?

-=-=-=-=-

I point at Duncan and Cameron. <bwg>

-=-=-==-

That me doing for my children "too much" will cause them to think that
they should be waited on hand and foot?

-=-=-=-=-

Is that what *you* feel you're doing? The hand and foot waiting?

-=-==-

For instance....after I do the laundry should they put their clothes
away or should I?

-=-=-=-

Should?

-=-=-=-=-

And if I ask for their help and they say "no" then I have to put away
clothes for at least 5-6 individuals.

-=-=-=-

Have to?

-=-=-=-

Or if I request help in cleaning up the living room, and my daughter
(8) or so (7) whine and say "I
don't want to" or "do I have to?" and then I clean up their toys......

-=-=-=-=-

If you're REQUESTING, don't they have the option to say no? If so, why
are you getting mad?

Why do you think they're whining? Are you modeling that?

-=-=-=-=-

What do I say when someone says "chores teach them to be responsible"
(that's usually my
husband).

-=-=-=-

Was *he* made to to chores? Does he do them now? Happily and joyfully?
Why? Why not?

Modeling joyful responsibility is how they'll learn responsibility.

Modeling making someone else do stuff for you is how they'll learn to
make others do stuff for them.

-=-=-=-=-

I'm not sure what to say because I guess I still believe that, having
been raised that way - that the family works together to keep it going.

-=-=-=-

ANd yet your family doesn't want to work together to keep it going.
Neither do you, right?

Did the way you were raised make you *want* to help around the house?
Did it make you *want* to do things for others?

-=-=-=-=-

Right now as I am moving my family into RU, the only one "working" is
me. If I
assigned chores the kids would be upset, but I would have
help. I feel overwhelmed with it all sometimes. How do I move away
from that
type of thinking?

-=-=-=-=-

Change is hard.

Rather than seeing it as *working* can you change the way you LOOK at
it? You're joyfully CARING for your loved ones. It's not *work*. It's a
GIFT. Every time you pick up another dish or pile of clothes, think:
what if I didn't have him here any more. Don't you think you'd MISS
that mess? I know I would.

Let them SEE you clean in JOY---really! That's all there is TO it! If
they see you do things joyfully that you *used* to grouch and grumble
about, they will see the joy in DOING it themselves.

Not right away! Don't be silly! But as you ease into joy, so will they.

-=-=-=-=-=-

And how do I grow and counter my own feelings of resentment because I
am picking up and cleaning up after 5 children?

-=-=-=-

Why are you resentful?

-=-=-=-=-

How did you come through this process where you felt at peace with it
all?

-=-=-=-

Jacob Strebler was Cameron's best friend. On the way to swim the
morning of July 12, 1994, Jacob was killed in a car accident at six
years old. Sam Wilkinson left home January 19, 2003 to go ice-skating,
fell through the ice, and drowned. He was almost nine. Hannah Jenner
was diagnosed with leukemia on a Tuesday last February, 2006. Ten days
later she was dead at 9.5 years old.

To feel at peace? I think of Lisa Strebler, Joanna Wilkinson, and Diana
Jenner. Not a day goes by that I don't think of each of these strong
women. Not ONE day.

It doesn't take much for me to be OK with dirty socks or a plate left
out.

-=-=-=-

What can I do for myself to help myself feel at peace while I'm wiping
up someone's spill that they left?

-=-=-=-

Think of Lisa, Joanna, and Diana who don't *get* to complain about or
wipe up that spill.

-=-=-=-

And so that I don't feel like maid, cook, etc.?

-=-=-=-

No one's making you feel that way but you.

-=-=-=-=-

Usually I wake up chipper, ready to be
mindful and gentle....and by the end of the day I'm exhausted from all
of the
requests, their bickering, the "we don't hurt our family", the cleaning
up, the
"mommy can you make me....fill-in-the-blank"......and then I'm all
snappy and
just want to be left alone.

-=-=-=-

Go hug them and be glad they're still with you.

-=-=-=-

These feelings are a huge hurdle (not my last hurdle, just a huge
one) towards
fully embracing unschooling.


-=-=-=-=-

They won't be there forever. Those feelings OR those kids. Enjoy the
time you have WITH them, and you'll start to enjoy the time you have
with them MORE.



~Kelly

"Wisdom begins in Wonder." ~Socrates
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
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Maisha Khalfani

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
<<They won't be there forever. Those feelings OR those kids. Enjoy the
time you have WITH them, and you'll start to enjoy the time you have
with them MORE.>>

Thank you Kelly. I've printed out your responses and I plan to read this email every morning and every night and every moment in between when I need to.




Namaste
Maisha
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com
"The period of greatest gain in knowledge and experience is the most difficult period in one's life" ~ The Dalai Lama








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Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky

Kelley,
That was a great e-mail I am saving to send to people and just read when I need to.
Thank you,
Alex


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