RU shift
Ren Allen
I have swiped this post from another list I'm on. I got permission
from the OP to put it here so she can read all the great inspiration
at UB. If anyone ever wants to post anything anonymously, you are more
than welcome to send your posts to the listowners (myself and Kelly
Lovejoy) or our lovely moderators (Rue Kream and Deb Lewis). Sometimes
it helps to post anon so you can read answers without feeling it's
anything personal.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So here's the post from another list:
I don't think I have made it to radical unschooling yet, but I'd
like to...and think I'm ready for the next step...but I need HELP!
I grew up with a lot of physical and verbal abuse, I don't want that
for my children. My kids are older and I know I will never be able
to undo what is already done, but where and how do I start making
changes (the un-"school"-ing part was easy, I'm not so sure that
this will be)? Will it be enough since I'm starting so late in
their childhoods?
I want to stop yelling but that has been a really hard habit to
break. My first instinct is to yell, then later, I realize how I
could have done it differently. By then it's too late...damage
done. I feel like a hypocrit since I am constantly "yelling" at my
kids to "talk" their problems out.
I have a 13yo. daughter that has a seriously bad attitude. She is
beyond the point of hurting the feelings of others and is damaging
her relationships. I know some of this is due to her age...but I'm
afraid it will only continue to get worse. She is constantly using
everyone as her doormat and making them feel like dirt. How do
I "check her attitude" and show her the damage she is doing but
still be radically unschooling? How do you enforce "the personal
rights/respect of others rules"?
My son will be 10 next week. He ignores our requests to help with
the household chores. He'll say okay to a job, but
then "conveniently disappears"/puts off until someone else has done
the job or it has piled up extensively. He will then claim we are
being mean and unfair to make him follow through with the work he
chose. Because by then, the job is harder and longer than before.
How do I get him to do his chores and be part of the family "clean-
up" but still be radically unschooling?
I need clarification on what radically unschooling means when it
comes to discipline, chores, attitudes, etc. We already have
school, food, bedtime, entertainment, etc. down...but need major
help with "correction".
Thank you for anything you can offer.
from the OP to put it here so she can read all the great inspiration
at UB. If anyone ever wants to post anything anonymously, you are more
than welcome to send your posts to the listowners (myself and Kelly
Lovejoy) or our lovely moderators (Rue Kream and Deb Lewis). Sometimes
it helps to post anon so you can read answers without feeling it's
anything personal.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So here's the post from another list:
I don't think I have made it to radical unschooling yet, but I'd
like to...and think I'm ready for the next step...but I need HELP!
I grew up with a lot of physical and verbal abuse, I don't want that
for my children. My kids are older and I know I will never be able
to undo what is already done, but where and how do I start making
changes (the un-"school"-ing part was easy, I'm not so sure that
this will be)? Will it be enough since I'm starting so late in
their childhoods?
I want to stop yelling but that has been a really hard habit to
break. My first instinct is to yell, then later, I realize how I
could have done it differently. By then it's too late...damage
done. I feel like a hypocrit since I am constantly "yelling" at my
kids to "talk" their problems out.
I have a 13yo. daughter that has a seriously bad attitude. She is
beyond the point of hurting the feelings of others and is damaging
her relationships. I know some of this is due to her age...but I'm
afraid it will only continue to get worse. She is constantly using
everyone as her doormat and making them feel like dirt. How do
I "check her attitude" and show her the damage she is doing but
still be radically unschooling? How do you enforce "the personal
rights/respect of others rules"?
My son will be 10 next week. He ignores our requests to help with
the household chores. He'll say okay to a job, but
then "conveniently disappears"/puts off until someone else has done
the job or it has piled up extensively. He will then claim we are
being mean and unfair to make him follow through with the work he
chose. Because by then, the job is harder and longer than before.
How do I get him to do his chores and be part of the family "clean-
up" but still be radically unschooling?
I need clarification on what radically unschooling means when it
comes to discipline, chores, attitudes, etc. We already have
school, food, bedtime, entertainment, etc. down...but need major
help with "correction".
Thank you for anything you can offer.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 2, 2006, at 10:58 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
Put up signs around the house that say "2 Choices!" to remind you. :-)
http://www.amazon.com/Parent-Teen-Breakthrough-Relationship-Mira-
Kirshenbaum/dp/0452266165/sr=1-2/qid=1159865384/
ref=pd_bbs_2/104-0550184-7133505?ie=UTF8&s=books
(You can probably get it through interlibrary loan though there are
used ones at Amazon for a penny (not including shipping and handling
of course!)
The basic premise is not to do or say anything that doesn't build a
relationship with your daughter. Keep in mind that people hurt others
because they're hurting themselves. For some kids the hormones of
adolescence are pretty painful and that makes them irritable and
people react to their irritation with anger and irritation which only
makes it worse.
I was grumpy a lot my teen years. Telling me how wrong it was to be
angry at the world wouldn't have helped. What I needed was someone
who understood. That would have taken a lot of work because I didn't
trust my parents to understand.
Maybe it will help if you set your goal as becoming someone your
daughter will talk to without judging her. Perhaps it will help if
you picture her online in a chat room and some "friend" says "I
understand. That's really sucky. Tell me about it." Predators know
how to be
sort socks or fold towels with me, she'd groan and act like I was
asking her to reshingle the roof! At 12 or so she could do it with
ease. Though it seemed simple, it really was hard for her and I
needed to trust what she was trying to tell me.
Bottom line is that -- if we want to put relationship first -- the
chores belong to us. We brought the kids into the world and all the
upkeep is our responsibility.
Once we accept that, then when we ask for help, we're asking from a
different mindset. We *are* truly asking, knowing the answer could be
no. We are appreciative of what little help they give us. And when we
ask like that, when we appreciate the fact that they're interrupting
something they find important to them to do something that isn't fun
for us, then we become people they *want* to do things for.
But don't expect him to start helping just because you're asking
differently! For a while, until he trusts that you don't expect him
to help, he's going to hear "Do this," regardless of how you ask.
That's too little to adequately explain what I mean. There's a lot
more at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
In the menu on the right. Answers to the questions about chores that
have been asked repeatedly for the past 10 years ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I want to stop yelling but that has been a really hard habit toAlways give yourself two choices and then pick the better one.
> break.
Put up signs around the house that say "2 Choices!" to remind you. :-)
> I have a 13yo. daughter that has a seriously bad attitude.Read Parent/Teen Breakthrough by Mira Kirshenbaum
http://www.amazon.com/Parent-Teen-Breakthrough-Relationship-Mira-
Kirshenbaum/dp/0452266165/sr=1-2/qid=1159865384/
ref=pd_bbs_2/104-0550184-7133505?ie=UTF8&s=books
(You can probably get it through interlibrary loan though there are
used ones at Amazon for a penny (not including shipping and handling
of course!)
The basic premise is not to do or say anything that doesn't build a
relationship with your daughter. Keep in mind that people hurt others
because they're hurting themselves. For some kids the hormones of
adolescence are pretty painful and that makes them irritable and
people react to their irritation with anger and irritation which only
makes it worse.
I was grumpy a lot my teen years. Telling me how wrong it was to be
angry at the world wouldn't have helped. What I needed was someone
who understood. That would have taken a lot of work because I didn't
trust my parents to understand.
Maybe it will help if you set your goal as becoming someone your
daughter will talk to without judging her. Perhaps it will help if
you picture her online in a chat room and some "friend" says "I
understand. That's really sucky. Tell me about it." Predators know
how to be
> My son will be 10 next week. He ignores our requests to help withBefore puberty, when I'd ask my daughter to do something simple like
> the household chores.
sort socks or fold towels with me, she'd groan and act like I was
asking her to reshingle the roof! At 12 or so she could do it with
ease. Though it seemed simple, it really was hard for her and I
needed to trust what she was trying to tell me.
Bottom line is that -- if we want to put relationship first -- the
chores belong to us. We brought the kids into the world and all the
upkeep is our responsibility.
Once we accept that, then when we ask for help, we're asking from a
different mindset. We *are* truly asking, knowing the answer could be
no. We are appreciative of what little help they give us. And when we
ask like that, when we appreciate the fact that they're interrupting
something they find important to them to do something that isn't fun
for us, then we become people they *want* to do things for.
But don't expect him to start helping just because you're asking
differently! For a while, until he trusts that you don't expect him
to help, he's going to hear "Do this," regardless of how you ask.
That's too little to adequately explain what I mean. There's a lot
more at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
In the menu on the right. Answers to the questions about chores that
have been asked repeatedly for the past 10 years ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: starsuncloud@...
I grew up with a lot of physical and verbal abuse, I don't want that
for my children. My kids are older and I know I will never be able
to undo what is already done, but where and how do I start making
changes (the un-"school"-ing part was easy, I'm not so sure that
this will be)? Will it be enough since I'm starting so late in
their childhoods?
-=-=-=-=-
If your husband had been hitting you, would having him simply STOP
HITTING be a good enough starting point?
Would it be better for you if your husband would keep on hitting you
because he'd decided so late in the marriage to make a change? Would it
be worth it if he stopped hitting and *then* started being kinder and
kinder and kinder?
-=-=-=-=-
I want to stop yelling but that has been a really hard habit to
break. My first instinct is to yell, then later, I realize how I
could have done it differently. By then it's too late...damage
done. I feel like a hypocrit since I am constantly "yelling" at my
kids to "talk" their problems out.
-=-=-=-=-
First--before you open your mouth to yell, take a DEEP breath. Count to
ten. And *say* what you had planned to yell. It might not sound so bad
if it's being said rather than being yelled. Next time, try to say it
gently and kindly.
Apologize for having yelled in the past---and apologize NOW if you
revert to yelling---even for a moment! Do a Wllie Wonka" "Stop, rewind,
reverse that!" Let them know that, even at your advanced age <g>, you
are capable of change. That you're working to be a better mom. That you
don't want to yell ---or to even be creepy. After a while, they'll see
you're serious and start helping you!
-=-=-=-=-
I have a 13yo. daughter that has a seriously bad attitude. She is
beyond the point of hurting the feelings of others and is damaging
her relationships. I know some of this is due to her age...but I'm
afraid it will only continue to get worse. She is constantly using
everyone as her doormat and making them feel like dirt. How do
I "check her attitude" and show her the damage she is doing but
still be radically unschooling? How do you enforce "the personal
rights/respect of others rules"?
-=-=-=-=-
Has she been made a doormat in the past? Has she been made to feel like
dirt?
Be nicer to her. A LOT nicer to her.
Don't let her be mean to others, Stop her by pulling her aside and
telling her so. Tell her that you wont allow *ANY*one to treat her that
way any more (AND MEAN IT!!!), but you can't allow her to treat others
that way either.
Be nicer to her. Let her see what kindness feels like.
-=-=-=-=-
My son will be 10 next week. He ignores our requests to help with
the household chores. He'll say okay to a job, but
then "conveniently disappears"/puts off until someone else has done
the job or it has piled up extensively. He will then claim we are
being mean and unfair to make him follow through with the work he
chose. Because by then, the job is harder and longer than before.
How do I get him to do his chores and be part of the family "clean-
up" but still be radically unschooling?
-=-=-=-
Quit asking him. For three years. Or until he decides that it's worth
helping out.
Household chores don't belong to him. They belong to you. YOU do them
until he's able and willing to help out of his own need/want to
contribute.
Have you made chores seem unpleasant in the past: like complaining that
you have to vacuum AGAIN? Or that you HATE to do the dishes? Or that
the laundry is PILING up AGAIN?
Why would a small child CHOOSE to do something that the adults in his
house hate to do?
Next time you do the dishes, mention how nice the warm water feels.
Next time you vacuum, sing while you do it. Next time you do laundry,
marvel at how big they've all gotten.
Don't expect him to want to help for years. Then be genuinely grateful
when he *does* help---at whatever level
-=-=-=-=-=-
I need clarification on what radically unschooling means when it
comes to discipline, chores, attitudes, etc. We already have
school, food, bedtime, entertainment, etc. down...but need major
help with "correction".
-=-=-=-=-
What exactly have *YOU* been modelling?
Top-down management regarding discipline? Chores? Attitude?
You're having to "correct" the behavior you've been modelling.
Correct your own, and the children will follow suit.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: starsuncloud@...
I grew up with a lot of physical and verbal abuse, I don't want that
for my children. My kids are older and I know I will never be able
to undo what is already done, but where and how do I start making
changes (the un-"school"-ing part was easy, I'm not so sure that
this will be)? Will it be enough since I'm starting so late in
their childhoods?
-=-=-=-=-
If your husband had been hitting you, would having him simply STOP
HITTING be a good enough starting point?
Would it be better for you if your husband would keep on hitting you
because he'd decided so late in the marriage to make a change? Would it
be worth it if he stopped hitting and *then* started being kinder and
kinder and kinder?
-=-=-=-=-
I want to stop yelling but that has been a really hard habit to
break. My first instinct is to yell, then later, I realize how I
could have done it differently. By then it's too late...damage
done. I feel like a hypocrit since I am constantly "yelling" at my
kids to "talk" their problems out.
-=-=-=-=-
First--before you open your mouth to yell, take a DEEP breath. Count to
ten. And *say* what you had planned to yell. It might not sound so bad
if it's being said rather than being yelled. Next time, try to say it
gently and kindly.
Apologize for having yelled in the past---and apologize NOW if you
revert to yelling---even for a moment! Do a Wllie Wonka" "Stop, rewind,
reverse that!" Let them know that, even at your advanced age <g>, you
are capable of change. That you're working to be a better mom. That you
don't want to yell ---or to even be creepy. After a while, they'll see
you're serious and start helping you!
-=-=-=-=-
I have a 13yo. daughter that has a seriously bad attitude. She is
beyond the point of hurting the feelings of others and is damaging
her relationships. I know some of this is due to her age...but I'm
afraid it will only continue to get worse. She is constantly using
everyone as her doormat and making them feel like dirt. How do
I "check her attitude" and show her the damage she is doing but
still be radically unschooling? How do you enforce "the personal
rights/respect of others rules"?
-=-=-=-=-
Has she been made a doormat in the past? Has she been made to feel like
dirt?
Be nicer to her. A LOT nicer to her.
Don't let her be mean to others, Stop her by pulling her aside and
telling her so. Tell her that you wont allow *ANY*one to treat her that
way any more (AND MEAN IT!!!), but you can't allow her to treat others
that way either.
Be nicer to her. Let her see what kindness feels like.
-=-=-=-=-
My son will be 10 next week. He ignores our requests to help with
the household chores. He'll say okay to a job, but
then "conveniently disappears"/puts off until someone else has done
the job or it has piled up extensively. He will then claim we are
being mean and unfair to make him follow through with the work he
chose. Because by then, the job is harder and longer than before.
How do I get him to do his chores and be part of the family "clean-
up" but still be radically unschooling?
-=-=-=-
Quit asking him. For three years. Or until he decides that it's worth
helping out.
Household chores don't belong to him. They belong to you. YOU do them
until he's able and willing to help out of his own need/want to
contribute.
Have you made chores seem unpleasant in the past: like complaining that
you have to vacuum AGAIN? Or that you HATE to do the dishes? Or that
the laundry is PILING up AGAIN?
Why would a small child CHOOSE to do something that the adults in his
house hate to do?
Next time you do the dishes, mention how nice the warm water feels.
Next time you vacuum, sing while you do it. Next time you do laundry,
marvel at how big they've all gotten.
Don't expect him to want to help for years. Then be genuinely grateful
when he *does* help---at whatever level
-=-=-=-=-=-
I need clarification on what radically unschooling means when it
comes to discipline, chores, attitudes, etc. We already have
school, food, bedtime, entertainment, etc. down...but need major
help with "correction".
-=-=-=-=-
What exactly have *YOU* been modelling?
Top-down management regarding discipline? Chores? Attitude?
You're having to "correct" the behavior you've been modelling.
Correct your own, and the children will follow suit.
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Deb
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
deep breath, tuck your chin in toward your neck - the physiology
makes it really hard to yell in that position. Think about it - when
you yell, you typically have your head up and stretched out from
your neck and shoulders a bit. Tucking your chin might help
physically remind you to change the tone/volume until not yelling
becomes more of a habit than yelling.
priorities from your kids who have *different* priorities, your
expectations are likely to get punctured. That sets you up for
resentment and anger and sets them up to disappoint you. Take away
the expectation. Ask for help ONLY when you absolutely can't get it
done some other way (like if you need help carrying the chocolate
milk, the plate of cookies, the brownies, and the can of soft drink
and the show is about to start so you don't want to do multi trips).
them as well - I've fallen in love with the orange scented organic
dish washing liquid - it's so perky and energizing that I don't mind
doing the dishes so much. Sing to music *you* like. Watch a favorite
movie while doing the laundry (and pause it when you go to switch
loads). *Invite* your kids to keep you company while you're sorting -
with no *expectation* that they'll do anything but be there to keep
you company. Maybe pick a family favorite to watch while you sort
and fold on the loveseat while they watch from the couch and the
recliner. Just *be* together, with no expectations. It really does
work. If I'm doing dishes or tidying the kitchen and DS (8) is there
just chatting, telling me about his day (since I WOH) or explaining
a battle in a videogame or whatever, and I ask him to take something
to the trash or go get me a sponge or whatever, he is likely to do
it simply because it's part of the flow of the situation. He doesn't
have to - but he's likely to just in the midst of everything else.
--Deb
>If it's hard for you to not raise your voice, even after taking a
> First--before you open your mouth to yell, take a DEEP breath.
>Count to
> ten. And *say* what you had planned to yell. It might not sound so
>bad
> if it's being said rather than being yelled. Next time, try to say
>it
> gently and kindly.
deep breath, tuck your chin in toward your neck - the physiology
makes it really hard to yell in that position. Think about it - when
you yell, you typically have your head up and stretched out from
your neck and shoulders a bit. Tucking your chin might help
physically remind you to change the tone/volume until not yelling
becomes more of a habit than yelling.
>This is a biggie - if you are *expecting* help based on your
> Household chores don't belong to him. They belong to you. YOU do
>them
> until he's able and willing to help out of his own need/want to
> contribute.
priorities from your kids who have *different* priorities, your
expectations are likely to get punctured. That sets you up for
resentment and anger and sets them up to disappoint you. Take away
the expectation. Ask for help ONLY when you absolutely can't get it
done some other way (like if you need help carrying the chocolate
milk, the plate of cookies, the brownies, and the can of soft drink
and the show is about to start so you don't want to do multi trips).
> Next time you do the dishes, mention how nice the warm waterAnd don't forget to make things nice for yourself while you're doing
>feels.
> Next time you vacuum, sing while you do it. Next time you do
>laundry,
> marvel at how big they've all gotten.
them as well - I've fallen in love with the orange scented organic
dish washing liquid - it's so perky and energizing that I don't mind
doing the dishes so much. Sing to music *you* like. Watch a favorite
movie while doing the laundry (and pause it when you go to switch
loads). *Invite* your kids to keep you company while you're sorting -
with no *expectation* that they'll do anything but be there to keep
you company. Maybe pick a family favorite to watch while you sort
and fold on the loveseat while they watch from the couch and the
recliner. Just *be* together, with no expectations. It really does
work. If I'm doing dishes or tidying the kitchen and DS (8) is there
just chatting, telling me about his day (since I WOH) or explaining
a battle in a videogame or whatever, and I ask him to take something
to the trash or go get me a sponge or whatever, he is likely to do
it simply because it's part of the flow of the situation. He doesn't
have to - but he's likely to just in the midst of everything else.
--Deb