"slave" labor
Ren
I just lost the quote I was going to use...darnit! But this idea of feeling like the "slave" is something I understand. It's still our job as the parent, to change how we see our own role in family life, and especially in clean up.
Those of you that chose the farm life, all the animals etc....did you stop to think that your children didn't choose the family they were born into? They didn't choose to have a farm with lots of work that needs to be done? They might love those animals, but there is NO way possible, that a young child could understand all the work that goes into it. So even if they don't want to get rid of them at this point (it's all they've known after all) try to remember that the ADULTS chose the lifestyle and now the kids are expected to pitch in and do the work to support the life the parents chose!!
That's not fair in my book.
My Dad had a ton of childhood resentment over all the farm chores he was required to do. It didn't "teach" him responsibility, it taught him resentment. He HATES farms to this day. Other personality types would grow up to be farmers themselves, but the lesson of forced chores lives on in resentment, not responsibility.
Responsibility is learned in it's own way and time, like all else. Not in a vacuum....in a rich environment in which a person has OPPORTUNITIES to be responsible, but it's not forced.
Just like reading. Surround the child with lots of reasons to read, great materials, and they do eventually.
If the mother is running around picking up, feeling like a slave and not saying anything, that's not the balance we're talking about either.
I think it's hugely our job to change our attitudes about clean up...WE chose to have children, WE chose the work that goes with it, WE should choose to be joyful and thankful.
Every time I get weary, I just thank the universe for the mess that is only here because my loved ones are. Believe me, I'd LOVE to clean up after my Mom today...she's gone and I will never clean up after her again. I'd give anything to fold her laundry, or brush her hair, or help her shower.....it would mean she was still with me.
I remember that as I pick up a child's shoes. How very sweet these reminders are, that we have children and they are in our homes, happy and healthy!
I do let my kids know when I'm overwhelmed, I DO let them know I want things to find their way to the garbage. I also ask for their input in what would help them, help ME.:)
Most of the time, if I'm happily doing something, I have at least one person want to join in. The key here, is children join in to any activity that looks fun...they're smart to avoid the ones you seem stressed or resentful about! Would YOU want to join an adult that seemed to hate what they were doing? I wouldn't.
Joy is contagious. If we spread true joy, then the unschooling/chores etc.... all fall into place. The focus is our relationships, the focus is being happy, all else will resolve itself with joy as our guide.
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
Those of you that chose the farm life, all the animals etc....did you stop to think that your children didn't choose the family they were born into? They didn't choose to have a farm with lots of work that needs to be done? They might love those animals, but there is NO way possible, that a young child could understand all the work that goes into it. So even if they don't want to get rid of them at this point (it's all they've known after all) try to remember that the ADULTS chose the lifestyle and now the kids are expected to pitch in and do the work to support the life the parents chose!!
That's not fair in my book.
My Dad had a ton of childhood resentment over all the farm chores he was required to do. It didn't "teach" him responsibility, it taught him resentment. He HATES farms to this day. Other personality types would grow up to be farmers themselves, but the lesson of forced chores lives on in resentment, not responsibility.
Responsibility is learned in it's own way and time, like all else. Not in a vacuum....in a rich environment in which a person has OPPORTUNITIES to be responsible, but it's not forced.
Just like reading. Surround the child with lots of reasons to read, great materials, and they do eventually.
If the mother is running around picking up, feeling like a slave and not saying anything, that's not the balance we're talking about either.
I think it's hugely our job to change our attitudes about clean up...WE chose to have children, WE chose the work that goes with it, WE should choose to be joyful and thankful.
Every time I get weary, I just thank the universe for the mess that is only here because my loved ones are. Believe me, I'd LOVE to clean up after my Mom today...she's gone and I will never clean up after her again. I'd give anything to fold her laundry, or brush her hair, or help her shower.....it would mean she was still with me.
I remember that as I pick up a child's shoes. How very sweet these reminders are, that we have children and they are in our homes, happy and healthy!
I do let my kids know when I'm overwhelmed, I DO let them know I want things to find their way to the garbage. I also ask for their input in what would help them, help ME.:)
Most of the time, if I'm happily doing something, I have at least one person want to join in. The key here, is children join in to any activity that looks fun...they're smart to avoid the ones you seem stressed or resentful about! Would YOU want to join an adult that seemed to hate what they were doing? I wouldn't.
Joy is contagious. If we spread true joy, then the unschooling/chores etc.... all fall into place. The focus is our relationships, the focus is being happy, all else will resolve itself with joy as our guide.
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
Geneva Goza
replying to this..
I do let my kids know when I'm overwhelmed, I DO let them know I want things to find their way to the garbage. I also ask for their input in what would help them, help ME.:)
Most of the time, if I'm happily doing something, I have at least one person want to join in. The key here, is children join in to any activity that looks fun...they're smart to avoid the ones you seem stressed or resentful about! Would YOU want to join an adult that seemed to hate what they were doing? I wouldn't.
What would you say to a 3.5 yr old, when you are overwhelmed with housework? I don't expect my Echo to help with things considered MY duties. When it comes to his room and his toys and books, I normally ask him to pick up when it's getting out of control. That has been okay BUT to get him to help I have to harp and ask SEVERAL times. Since joining this group and reading everyone's ideas, I have tried to be more gentle in my approach and remember that I am the one who wants things picked up NOT the kids.
Since working on my additude, my issue is this. I have cleaned the kids room twice this week, spotless. Every toy has a place and everyone can see where the toys are...I think it looks more appealing, and makes play easier since you can find what you need. He has started dumping the toybox all over (BTW - Kobe is walking but she's not very good at it) the room, Kobe trips, the dogs can't get outside to their yard...it's not safe but we're going with it. He wants the toys out of the toybos so he can put all of his blankets inside and make a little bed out of it - too cute, but then that leaves the toys all over and Kobe falls etc.
What would you gentle mothers do about this. So far, I've asked him to help pick up at the end of the day and then we start over with the mess in the AM. HOw can I explain to him that he can do that but he needs to help pick up at the end of the day, so far it;s a big struggle and he is "winning" by simply ignoring me. At this point I'm not at all resentful...in 13 years, we're gonna have trouble.
To you moms with teens - if your children liked the mess as pre(un)schoolers, and you indulged them, how are their rooms as teens?
Ren, I just love your posts, I would love to sit in at your house sometime. You sound so cool and relaxed, I'm really trying to follow your example. This entire group has been a huge help for a stressed mom with good intentions. Thanks to all of you!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I do let my kids know when I'm overwhelmed, I DO let them know I want things to find their way to the garbage. I also ask for their input in what would help them, help ME.:)
Most of the time, if I'm happily doing something, I have at least one person want to join in. The key here, is children join in to any activity that looks fun...they're smart to avoid the ones you seem stressed or resentful about! Would YOU want to join an adult that seemed to hate what they were doing? I wouldn't.
What would you say to a 3.5 yr old, when you are overwhelmed with housework? I don't expect my Echo to help with things considered MY duties. When it comes to his room and his toys and books, I normally ask him to pick up when it's getting out of control. That has been okay BUT to get him to help I have to harp and ask SEVERAL times. Since joining this group and reading everyone's ideas, I have tried to be more gentle in my approach and remember that I am the one who wants things picked up NOT the kids.
Since working on my additude, my issue is this. I have cleaned the kids room twice this week, spotless. Every toy has a place and everyone can see where the toys are...I think it looks more appealing, and makes play easier since you can find what you need. He has started dumping the toybox all over (BTW - Kobe is walking but she's not very good at it) the room, Kobe trips, the dogs can't get outside to their yard...it's not safe but we're going with it. He wants the toys out of the toybos so he can put all of his blankets inside and make a little bed out of it - too cute, but then that leaves the toys all over and Kobe falls etc.
What would you gentle mothers do about this. So far, I've asked him to help pick up at the end of the day and then we start over with the mess in the AM. HOw can I explain to him that he can do that but he needs to help pick up at the end of the day, so far it;s a big struggle and he is "winning" by simply ignoring me. At this point I'm not at all resentful...in 13 years, we're gonna have trouble.
To you moms with teens - if your children liked the mess as pre(un)schoolers, and you indulged them, how are their rooms as teens?
Ren, I just love your posts, I would love to sit in at your house sometime. You sound so cool and relaxed, I'm really trying to follow your example. This entire group has been a huge help for a stressed mom with good intentions. Thanks to all of you!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/11/2004 12:27:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
goza@... writes:
To you moms with teens - if your children liked the mess as
pre(un)schoolers, and you indulged them, how are their rooms as teens?<<<<<
I like things picked up. I would clean Cameron's toddler room regularly. He
would help clean up if I were in there---just because he liked to be with me.
His teen room is the cleanest in the house. Always. A place for everything,
and everything in its place. Amazing!
Now if I could just get *my* room that clean! <G>
Duncan prefers his room on the clean side now (he's eight). But his friends
trash it regularly. He won't sleep in it when it's too bad. He'll sleep in the
den or with me or with Cameron. He loves for me to clean it, but he doesn't
like to help as much as Cameron did. But he's very appreciative when I've
cleaned it and loves to snuggle down in a freshly made bed with a cleared floor.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
goza@... writes:
To you moms with teens - if your children liked the mess as
pre(un)schoolers, and you indulged them, how are their rooms as teens?<<<<<
I like things picked up. I would clean Cameron's toddler room regularly. He
would help clean up if I were in there---just because he liked to be with me.
His teen room is the cleanest in the house. Always. A place for everything,
and everything in its place. Amazing!
Now if I could just get *my* room that clean! <G>
Duncan prefers his room on the clean side now (he's eight). But his friends
trash it regularly. He won't sleep in it when it's too bad. He'll sleep in the
den or with me or with Cameron. He loves for me to clean it, but he doesn't
like to help as much as Cameron did. But he's very appreciative when I've
cleaned it and loves to snuggle down in a freshly made bed with a cleared floor.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
On Jul 11, 2004, at 11:50 AM, Geneva Goza wrote:
.... that's WAY too big a task for a 3yo to handle. It could be way
too for a 15yo to handle on their own. They need Mama and/or Daddy
down on the floor doing most of the clean up. Make it a game and see
if they can find all the things that are blue to put away or all the
things that have wheels or whatever. And if they don't want to play
that game then that's gotta be OK too.
giving the gift of a clean slate. Key word is "gift". ;) The
child(ren) don't care if "everything has a place" -- they're going to
find what they want to play with wherever it might be. YOU might care
how it's set up, but don't get frustrated with your little guy if he
*doesn't*. ;)
dash" stage between the ages of 2 to 4. Now at 5 he doesn't do it that
often anymore, but it still happens occasionally. My DD is the same
age as your Echo and we're in the thick of her dumping escapades.
hehehe She likes to dump out bins and pretend to be in a boat, or a
bed, or put stuffed animals in them and pretend she has to "rescue"
them because somebody mean trapped them, etc. LOL
I, personally, think that the "dump and dash" phase is totally normal
for their development and liken it to an older baby continually
dropping food or toys from up in their high chair. They're conducting
experiments and IMO they like to watch and hear the avalanche of Legos
or blocks or Hot Wheels or whatever is being dumped.
Isn't there a sound that you think it pretty cool for no apparent
reason? I *love* to hear a glass jar of spaghetti sauce hit the
grocery store floor. Don't ask why! LOL I think it just sounds
really cool and whenever I happen to witness Mr. or Ms. Butterfingers
drop one in the store I rejoice! My DH thinks it's hilarious that I
can get such pleasure out of something so silly, but, hey, I'm easily
amused. ;)
Echo is your first child, right? I was way more uptight about
dump-and-dash when he was newly doing it. It's now "old hat" for DD so
I don't get exasperated or angry that they're "making work" for me.
Even though I'm not bitching and moaning about it to her (like I had
initially done to poor DS) she doesn't do it MORE. Griping at DS
didn't make him stop doing it and NOT griping at DD hasn't caused her
to do it more. I hope that makes sense. LOL
Point being....it's totally normal for your DS to do this. It doesn't
last forever and you'll be able to chuckle and "remember when..."
not going to work without guilt, coercion and tears so don't try that
one anymore.
1) He "needs" to help? He doesn't *really* NEED to help. You *want*
him to help. Semantics does play a part in our thought process.
There's a huge difference between need and want.
2) Picking up at the end of the day probably isn't the more opportune
time to suggest a clean up session. You're tired, he's tired, the baby
is tired. Prime time for low reserves on patience for all involved.
Why not "start fresh" in the morning when the kids are maybe both still
sleeping or after breakfast or whatever. I really suggest not trying
to tackle a big pile of toys at the end of the day. I know I'm pretty
cranky toward the end of the day and little things can trigger Bitchy
Mommy to emerge. LOL
3) He's "winning"??????? When did your parent-child relationship turn
into a pissing match? Seriously. That's not going to help you two
have a loving, trusting relationship.
Naomi Aldort is an author who writes lots of stuff on unschooling and
gentle parenting. I found one of her articles at Natural Child Project
that I think you might like to read. It's called "Surviving the
Toddler Years". It really helped me to enjoy my little ones. :)
http://www.naturalchild.org/naomi_aldort/toddler.html
is the surest way to make it come true. And, sweetie, to me you DO
sound resentful right now. Have you ever read _Raising Your Spirited
Child_ by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka? There's a good deal of thought on how
the phrases we use to think about or talk about our children plays a
HUGE part of how we respond to them. For example, use "assertive"
instead of "stubborn"; "dramatic" instead of "obnoxious", "charismatic"
instead of "manipulative".
Here's a snippet of the book:
"Unknowingly, unwittingly, we can create labels for our spirited
children that highlight the yucky stuff and hide the neat stuff.
Labels that embarrass us, their parents, and make us feel lousy.
Starting today, you can choose to stop using words that project a
negative image of your child. It really isn't that far a leap from
'picky' to 'selective', or from 'obnoxious' to 'dramatic'. By merely
changing your vocabulary you can alter how you and others perceive your
child. You can create a new image that feels good, looks good, and
meets socially approved standards. The first step to enhancing your
spirited child's strengths comes with the words you use. It's as
simple as that."
Your library probably has this title. If you want to buy it, Amazon
has it and has used copies from only $2.99. It's worth the read IMO.
I hope I've helped you and you've read this knowing that I'm trying to
guide you to more happiness and joy. :D
Warmly,
-Tracy-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> When it comes to his room and his toys and books, I normally ask himWhen a room is messed up so much that you've deemed it "out of control"
> to pick up when it's getting out of control.
.... that's WAY too big a task for a 3yo to handle. It could be way
too for a 15yo to handle on their own. They need Mama and/or Daddy
down on the floor doing most of the clean up. Make it a game and see
if they can find all the things that are blue to put away or all the
things that have wheels or whatever. And if they don't want to play
that game then that's gotta be OK too.
> I have cleaned the kids room twice this week, spotless. Every toy hasI've heard other sage Mamas in these unschooling circles call that
> a place and everyone can see where the toys are...I think it looks
> more appealing, and makes play easier since you can find what you
> need.
giving the gift of a clean slate. Key word is "gift". ;) The
child(ren) don't care if "everything has a place" -- they're going to
find what they want to play with wherever it might be. YOU might care
how it's set up, but don't get frustrated with your little guy if he
*doesn't*. ;)
> He has started dumping the toybox all over (BTW - Kobe is walking butOh, that's SO like a 3yo. LOL My DS went through a big "dump and
> she's not very good at it) the room, Kobe trips, the dogs can't get
> outside to their yard...it's not safe but we're going with it. He
> wants the toys out of the toybos so he can put all of his blankets
> inside and make a little bed out of it - too cute, but then that
> leaves the toys all over and Kobe falls etc.
dash" stage between the ages of 2 to 4. Now at 5 he doesn't do it that
often anymore, but it still happens occasionally. My DD is the same
age as your Echo and we're in the thick of her dumping escapades.
hehehe She likes to dump out bins and pretend to be in a boat, or a
bed, or put stuffed animals in them and pretend she has to "rescue"
them because somebody mean trapped them, etc. LOL
I, personally, think that the "dump and dash" phase is totally normal
for their development and liken it to an older baby continually
dropping food or toys from up in their high chair. They're conducting
experiments and IMO they like to watch and hear the avalanche of Legos
or blocks or Hot Wheels or whatever is being dumped.
Isn't there a sound that you think it pretty cool for no apparent
reason? I *love* to hear a glass jar of spaghetti sauce hit the
grocery store floor. Don't ask why! LOL I think it just sounds
really cool and whenever I happen to witness Mr. or Ms. Butterfingers
drop one in the store I rejoice! My DH thinks it's hilarious that I
can get such pleasure out of something so silly, but, hey, I'm easily
amused. ;)
Echo is your first child, right? I was way more uptight about
dump-and-dash when he was newly doing it. It's now "old hat" for DD so
I don't get exasperated or angry that they're "making work" for me.
Even though I'm not bitching and moaning about it to her (like I had
initially done to poor DS) she doesn't do it MORE. Griping at DS
didn't make him stop doing it and NOT griping at DD hasn't caused her
to do it more. I hope that makes sense. LOL
Point being....it's totally normal for your DS to do this. It doesn't
last forever and you'll be able to chuckle and "remember when..."
> What would you gentle mothers do about this.Nuttin', Honey.
> So far, I've asked him to help pick up at the end of the day and thenAs Dr. Phil says, "And how's that workin' for ya?" Seriously, that's
> we start over with the mess in the AM.
not going to work without guilt, coercion and tears so don't try that
one anymore.
> HOw can I explain to him that he can do that but he needs to help pickEww, two issues here. Well, 3 actually.
> up at the end of the day, so far it;s a big struggle and he is
> "winning" by simply ignoring me.
1) He "needs" to help? He doesn't *really* NEED to help. You *want*
him to help. Semantics does play a part in our thought process.
There's a huge difference between need and want.
2) Picking up at the end of the day probably isn't the more opportune
time to suggest a clean up session. You're tired, he's tired, the baby
is tired. Prime time for low reserves on patience for all involved.
Why not "start fresh" in the morning when the kids are maybe both still
sleeping or after breakfast or whatever. I really suggest not trying
to tackle a big pile of toys at the end of the day. I know I'm pretty
cranky toward the end of the day and little things can trigger Bitchy
Mommy to emerge. LOL
3) He's "winning"??????? When did your parent-child relationship turn
into a pissing match? Seriously. That's not going to help you two
have a loving, trusting relationship.
Naomi Aldort is an author who writes lots of stuff on unschooling and
gentle parenting. I found one of her articles at Natural Child Project
that I think you might like to read. It's called "Surviving the
Toddler Years". It really helped me to enjoy my little ones. :)
http://www.naturalchild.org/naomi_aldort/toddler.html
> At this point I'm not at all resentful...in 13 years, we're gonna haveOoo, more negative thoughts. Having that kind of "fatalistic" outlook
> trouble.
is the surest way to make it come true. And, sweetie, to me you DO
sound resentful right now. Have you ever read _Raising Your Spirited
Child_ by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka? There's a good deal of thought on how
the phrases we use to think about or talk about our children plays a
HUGE part of how we respond to them. For example, use "assertive"
instead of "stubborn"; "dramatic" instead of "obnoxious", "charismatic"
instead of "manipulative".
Here's a snippet of the book:
"Unknowingly, unwittingly, we can create labels for our spirited
children that highlight the yucky stuff and hide the neat stuff.
Labels that embarrass us, their parents, and make us feel lousy.
Starting today, you can choose to stop using words that project a
negative image of your child. It really isn't that far a leap from
'picky' to 'selective', or from 'obnoxious' to 'dramatic'. By merely
changing your vocabulary you can alter how you and others perceive your
child. You can create a new image that feels good, looks good, and
meets socially approved standards. The first step to enhancing your
spirited child's strengths comes with the words you use. It's as
simple as that."
Your library probably has this title. If you want to buy it, Amazon
has it and has used copies from only $2.99. It's worth the read IMO.
I hope I've helped you and you've read this knowing that I'm trying to
guide you to more happiness and joy. :D
Warmly,
-Tracy-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
>>>So even if they don't want to get rid of them at this point (it's allthey've known after all) try to remember that the ADULTS chose the lifestyle
and now the kids are expected to pitch in and do the work to support the
life the parents chose!!
That's not fair in my book.>>>
I'm confused. I want to support my childs interest, whatever that may
be, without question, right? Shouldn't we then support my husbands interest
in farming. Why is it not o.k. to say to our children, yes this is dads
interest lets support him in it? Dad's interest may bring extra flies in to
the house or smell bad or make it so we can never go on vacation, but it's
what he loves to do. I think a little sacrifice for the ones you love is not
a terrible thing.(a good example of this would be when my 5 year old wanted
to inspect large spiders up close with an extremely irrational arachnophobic
mom. I did it, but it hurt.8^)) To be clear, we don't force chores on
anyone. My husband takes care of everything in regards to farming, not the
kids. We don't expect them to do chores unless they have a pet that they
specifically purchased. We also don't have disposable pets here that you
can just throw away when you get tired of them. If my kids no longer want
to take care of a pet it is their responsibility to find a good home for it.
Every animal on our farm is free range, so there is very little work that
needs to be done anyway. We get opportunities that most city dwellers
rarely get to see on an ongoing basis. We have learned so much, being on a
farm. The kids seem to love it around the animals, but with everything good
also comes certain responsibilities especially when you consider living
breathing things.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it offends me when you say it's
not fair to ask kids to pitch in on farm work when all it is doing, if done
well, is asking them to support their dad in a hobby that he loves. I must
stress that we have a very small farm, I don't know what it's like to have a
farm that needs a major amount of tending to. No they didn't chose the farm
and that's why we don't require them to do chores, but sometimes needing
their help is unavoidable (herding animals back in when they've escaped).
Luckily, so far they love it and I hope it remains that way.
Annmarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Ren [mailto:starsuncloud@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 9:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] "slave" labor
I just lost the quote I was going to use...darnit! But this idea of
feeling like the "slave" is something I understand. It's still our job as
the parent, to change how we see our own role in family life, and especially
in clean up.
Those of you that chose the farm life, all the animals etc....did you stop
to think that your children didn't choose the family they were born into?
They didn't choose to have a farm with lots of work that needs to be done?
They might love those animals, but there is NO way possible, that a young
child could understand all the work that goes into it. So even if they don't
want to get rid of them at this point (it's all they've known after all) try
to remember that the ADULTS chose the lifestyle and now the kids are
expected to pitch in and do the work to support the life the parents chose!!
That's not fair in my book.
My Dad had a ton of childhood resentment over all the farm chores he was
required to do. It didn't "teach" him responsibility, it taught him
resentment. He HATES farms to this day. Other personality types would grow
up to be farmers themselves, but the lesson of forced chores lives on in
resentment, not responsibility.
Responsibility is learned in it's own way and time, like all else. Not in
a vacuum....in a rich environment in which a person has OPPORTUNITIES to be
responsible, but it's not forced.
Just like reading. Surround the child with lots of reasons to read, great
materials, and they do eventually.
If the mother is running around picking up, feeling like a slave and not
saying anything, that's not the balance we're talking about either.
I think it's hugely our job to change our attitudes about clean up...WE
chose to have children, WE chose the work that goes with it, WE should
choose to be joyful and thankful.
Every time I get weary, I just thank the universe for the mess that is
only here because my loved ones are. Believe me, I'd LOVE to clean up after
my Mom today...she's gone and I will never clean up after her again. I'd
give anything to fold her laundry, or brush her hair, or help her
shower.....it would mean she was still with me.
I remember that as I pick up a child's shoes. How very sweet these
reminders are, that we have children and they are in our homes, happy and
healthy!
I do let my kids know when I'm overwhelmed, I DO let them know I want
things to find their way to the garbage. I also ask for their input in what
would help them, help ME.:)
Most of the time, if I'm happily doing something, I have at least one
person want to join in. The key here, is children join in to any activity
that looks fun...they're smart to avoid the ones you seem stressed or
resentful about! Would YOU want to join an adult that seemed to hate what
they were doing? I wouldn't.
Joy is contagious. If we spread true joy, then the unschooling/chores
etc.... all fall into place. The focus is our relationships, the focus is
being happy, all else will resolve itself with joy as our guide.
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Geneva Goza
Tracy - I appreciate your feedback on this matter.
I hope I was clear - I have never expected Echo to clean his room alone. My request has always been that he help out a little and mostly just be there to see that after we make a huge mess, we all pick up together. I don't think it's a big issue now, I understand that it's all very normal and that I am the one who likes things picked up. I was however saying that I do have a problem with this if he is a teenager. By that I mean, I'm willing to trust him and go with it for now but I don't think I could be so patient when he is a teen. That's part of why I'm asking the more experienced moms here if their teens are still making messes and expecting to be guided and helped like a toddler.
If Echo is going to just be a kid and dump toys all over - this is still dangerous for Kobe and they do share a room - would anyone suggest that I just keep her out of there and let him play alone? I am a personal chef and I work from home...there are times when my kids have to play without me there to guide them...at all times, I can still see them most of the time. It's important for their room to be safe and toys EVERYWHERE isn't really safe for a 1 yr old. I have (this week) gated the bedroom so that Echo could play whatever however and Kobe can just play in the livingroom with us. Echo enjoys the privacy and is fine with it - has even cried when I let her back in to play. Though this works for Echo and I, Kobes gets so pissed and her feelings are so hurt but I can't afford to let my food burn!
What's a sage mama?
3) He's "winning"??????? When did your parent-child relationship turn
into a pissing match? Seriously. That's not going to help you two
have a loving, trusting relationship.
I'm not sure if you were joking about that or not but my son and I have never had "pissing matches," nor am I resentful...at all, he's 3.5!!! I understand that he is behaving normally...I expect him to get into things and dump his things as he learns and plays BUT he's young. I don't expect an older child to be so careless. I suppose that's the main reason I asked for any feedback at all. I uses the word "winning" meaning that things are not going MY way. Ideally, he would want to pitch in without being asked several times.
I've also heard Dr Phil ask "how's that working for ya" and I put some deep thought into that this morning. He/you are right, asking him to help is not getting any results. The fact is, Echo does not care about cleaning up, though he does help out at times. So, if I just leave it alone, clean up myself, who is he going to be when he grows up? If he were in his 20s today, he would be considered a slob. Again, moms with older kids...gimmie your .02.
Echo is with his gma now, tomorrow he will come home to a clean room, and he can make a mess of it if he likes. I will continue to clean up at the end of the day and I know he will help a little. I think my fear is that he will grow up, get married and fight with his wife because her expects her to do it all.
Tracy, I know we don't really know eachother and sometimes tones of voice and such can be lost in email but I have to admit, I'm a bit offended that anyone here or elsewhere would think I would be crazy enough to have a pissing match with my young son. I just want what's BEST for him. I am here for support and knowledge, not to be criticized or labeled resentful. I feel that you've misjudged me. I still appreciate your input and I have found it helpful. I hope you all are having a great weekend!
Geneva
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I hope I was clear - I have never expected Echo to clean his room alone. My request has always been that he help out a little and mostly just be there to see that after we make a huge mess, we all pick up together. I don't think it's a big issue now, I understand that it's all very normal and that I am the one who likes things picked up. I was however saying that I do have a problem with this if he is a teenager. By that I mean, I'm willing to trust him and go with it for now but I don't think I could be so patient when he is a teen. That's part of why I'm asking the more experienced moms here if their teens are still making messes and expecting to be guided and helped like a toddler.
If Echo is going to just be a kid and dump toys all over - this is still dangerous for Kobe and they do share a room - would anyone suggest that I just keep her out of there and let him play alone? I am a personal chef and I work from home...there are times when my kids have to play without me there to guide them...at all times, I can still see them most of the time. It's important for their room to be safe and toys EVERYWHERE isn't really safe for a 1 yr old. I have (this week) gated the bedroom so that Echo could play whatever however and Kobe can just play in the livingroom with us. Echo enjoys the privacy and is fine with it - has even cried when I let her back in to play. Though this works for Echo and I, Kobes gets so pissed and her feelings are so hurt but I can't afford to let my food burn!
What's a sage mama?
3) He's "winning"??????? When did your parent-child relationship turn
into a pissing match? Seriously. That's not going to help you two
have a loving, trusting relationship.
I'm not sure if you were joking about that or not but my son and I have never had "pissing matches," nor am I resentful...at all, he's 3.5!!! I understand that he is behaving normally...I expect him to get into things and dump his things as he learns and plays BUT he's young. I don't expect an older child to be so careless. I suppose that's the main reason I asked for any feedback at all. I uses the word "winning" meaning that things are not going MY way. Ideally, he would want to pitch in without being asked several times.
I've also heard Dr Phil ask "how's that working for ya" and I put some deep thought into that this morning. He/you are right, asking him to help is not getting any results. The fact is, Echo does not care about cleaning up, though he does help out at times. So, if I just leave it alone, clean up myself, who is he going to be when he grows up? If he were in his 20s today, he would be considered a slob. Again, moms with older kids...gimmie your .02.
Echo is with his gma now, tomorrow he will come home to a clean room, and he can make a mess of it if he likes. I will continue to clean up at the end of the day and I know he will help a little. I think my fear is that he will grow up, get married and fight with his wife because her expects her to do it all.
Tracy, I know we don't really know eachother and sometimes tones of voice and such can be lost in email but I have to admit, I'm a bit offended that anyone here or elsewhere would think I would be crazy enough to have a pissing match with my young son. I just want what's BEST for him. I am here for support and knowledge, not to be criticized or labeled resentful. I feel that you've misjudged me. I still appreciate your input and I have found it helpful. I hope you all are having a great weekend!
Geneva
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"What would you say to a 3.5 yr old, when you are overwhelmed with
housework?"
Nothing.
3.5 is just SO little, I don't believe they should have to try and
understand where we're coming from. My 7 y.o. and I tend to do
cleaning projects together, she likes it, the others don't so much.
Jalen often sees us and pitches in, but I don't expect anything.
When I said I DO ask for help when overwhelmed, I'm thinking of my
almost 11 y.o. and 14 y.o., somewhat with my 7 y.o.
I guess dropping all expectations, and trying to just live moment to
moment really helped me a lot. Little people can't possibly have the
empathy we might like, it's just part of development. Understanding
that, we can drop expectations and just enjoy picking up as another
family activity. If you get help, great...if not, no resentment.:)
As far as sitting in my home....
I'm just glad it wasn't last night!! I got off work after two long
days (driving over an hour from Mobile) and came home to a disaster
of a kitchen, and my dh telling me what a holy terror Jalen was all
day (hitting, dumping things out etc..) it wasn't much better after
I got home. I took the kids up to the mall to change the
dynamics...worked beautifully. We all had a very nice couple of
hours. But after coming back home, Jalen started in with
antagonizing Sierra (his favorite thing lately, he gets such a
lovely, dramatic reaction..sigh) and I was NOT very empathetic at
that point. I grumped at him and said "you need to go LAY down".
Not one of my finer moments. My voice raised more than it should
have. Once we were snuggled in bed and he was nursing, I suddenly
felt he was the sweetest, most perfect child on earth again. Nursing
is like a miracle drug.
Ren
housework?"
Nothing.
3.5 is just SO little, I don't believe they should have to try and
understand where we're coming from. My 7 y.o. and I tend to do
cleaning projects together, she likes it, the others don't so much.
Jalen often sees us and pitches in, but I don't expect anything.
When I said I DO ask for help when overwhelmed, I'm thinking of my
almost 11 y.o. and 14 y.o., somewhat with my 7 y.o.
I guess dropping all expectations, and trying to just live moment to
moment really helped me a lot. Little people can't possibly have the
empathy we might like, it's just part of development. Understanding
that, we can drop expectations and just enjoy picking up as another
family activity. If you get help, great...if not, no resentment.:)
As far as sitting in my home....
I'm just glad it wasn't last night!! I got off work after two long
days (driving over an hour from Mobile) and came home to a disaster
of a kitchen, and my dh telling me what a holy terror Jalen was all
day (hitting, dumping things out etc..) it wasn't much better after
I got home. I took the kids up to the mall to change the
dynamics...worked beautifully. We all had a very nice couple of
hours. But after coming back home, Jalen started in with
antagonizing Sierra (his favorite thing lately, he gets such a
lovely, dramatic reaction..sigh) and I was NOT very empathetic at
that point. I grumped at him and said "you need to go LAY down".
Not one of my finer moments. My voice raised more than it should
have. Once we were snuggled in bed and he was nursing, I suddenly
felt he was the sweetest, most perfect child on earth again. Nursing
is like a miracle drug.
Ren
Ren Allen
To you moms with teens - if your children liked the mess as
pre(un)schoolers, and you indulged them, how are their rooms as
teens?<<<<<
So funny you should ask....every one of my kids is totally different.
I'm like Kelly, I do ok with mess, but it can't be totally out of
hand or I get stressed. So I usually clean their rooms for them when
they're younger, and with them as they learn to join in.
Let's see....
My 14 y.o. goes through phases of mess, but he loves organization.
For the last several years, he'll keep his room at a certain clean
level most of the time. If it gets messy, he'll eventually go into a
deep clean phase and gut the room, ending up with perfection.
He rarely even asks for help anymore.
Jared (almost 11) likes neat, but hates to clean at ALL. It's just
not something he enjoys at this point. Yet he doesn't make much
mess. He's my artistic dreamer and just prefers being in his own
world....other activities (other than Yu-gi-oh, drawing or gaming)
are a distraction for him. I clean his room for him and it stays
pretty nice. He's a low maintenance kinda guy.
Sierra (7) is totally, utterly messy. I can clean her room and in
two hours it looks like a storm hit. It's not that she doesn't care,
she's just a very busy, interesting person and NEEDS lots of stuff
out. She loves having me clean her room, is very grateful and tries
to pick up to the best of her ability. I was a lot like her, and I
figured out how to be halfway organized in life anyway.
Jalen is my toddler....he doesn't care if everything is out or
picked up (actually, he might prefer everything out) we all clean up
after him. It's intersting, because he'll come out when I'm sitting
on the couch and take a dirty plate or bowl from me and deliver it
to the kitchen. He makes a LOT of mess...but he's also learning by
example, to do things for other people. When he dumps something on
the floor, I'll start cleaning up and say "Jalen, could you help
me?" Sometimes he'll say "no", sometimes he'll pitch in....I don't
make him feel badly if "no" is the answer. I just do it and
say "well, I don't want to step on yucky food, so I'm going to sweep
this up, could you please put it in the garbage next time?"
Usually he'll nod vaguely, like the thought simply hadn't occurred
to him.:)
I think there is a lot of high expectations of these little people.
Their barely past the baby stage, but they're supposed to understand
about cleaning up after themselves? I think that's setting parents
up for a lot of frustration.
Ren
pre(un)schoolers, and you indulged them, how are their rooms as
teens?<<<<<
So funny you should ask....every one of my kids is totally different.
I'm like Kelly, I do ok with mess, but it can't be totally out of
hand or I get stressed. So I usually clean their rooms for them when
they're younger, and with them as they learn to join in.
Let's see....
My 14 y.o. goes through phases of mess, but he loves organization.
For the last several years, he'll keep his room at a certain clean
level most of the time. If it gets messy, he'll eventually go into a
deep clean phase and gut the room, ending up with perfection.
He rarely even asks for help anymore.
Jared (almost 11) likes neat, but hates to clean at ALL. It's just
not something he enjoys at this point. Yet he doesn't make much
mess. He's my artistic dreamer and just prefers being in his own
world....other activities (other than Yu-gi-oh, drawing or gaming)
are a distraction for him. I clean his room for him and it stays
pretty nice. He's a low maintenance kinda guy.
Sierra (7) is totally, utterly messy. I can clean her room and in
two hours it looks like a storm hit. It's not that she doesn't care,
she's just a very busy, interesting person and NEEDS lots of stuff
out. She loves having me clean her room, is very grateful and tries
to pick up to the best of her ability. I was a lot like her, and I
figured out how to be halfway organized in life anyway.
Jalen is my toddler....he doesn't care if everything is out or
picked up (actually, he might prefer everything out) we all clean up
after him. It's intersting, because he'll come out when I'm sitting
on the couch and take a dirty plate or bowl from me and deliver it
to the kitchen. He makes a LOT of mess...but he's also learning by
example, to do things for other people. When he dumps something on
the floor, I'll start cleaning up and say "Jalen, could you help
me?" Sometimes he'll say "no", sometimes he'll pitch in....I don't
make him feel badly if "no" is the answer. I just do it and
say "well, I don't want to step on yucky food, so I'm going to sweep
this up, could you please put it in the garbage next time?"
Usually he'll nod vaguely, like the thought simply hadn't occurred
to him.:)
I think there is a lot of high expectations of these little people.
Their barely past the baby stage, but they're supposed to understand
about cleaning up after themselves? I think that's setting parents
up for a lot of frustration.
Ren
Webinfusion
>But this idea of feeling like the "slave" is something I >understand.Which thread was this original thought taken from? I'd like to read it, and have been away a few days and there are TOO many posts to search through:-)
Thanks,
Tracy A.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
I just want to say that I loved your entire post Tracy....beautiful.
"It could be way
too for a 15yo to handle on their own. They need Mama and/or Daddy
down on the floor doing most of the clean up."
I'm going to relate my own experience as a teen here.
I am still a lot like my teen self as far as "stuff" goes.:) I don't
like putting something back when I'm done with it. If I need it
again in a minute, it's much more convenient if it's still out. It's
taken a huge amount of self discipline, to be able to NOT always do
that.
As a teen (and even after moving out on my own) I just didn't care.
If I was done with something, it went on the floor. My room had
stuff strewn from wall to wall, usually a small path to my bed!
Funny thing is, I function much better when things are semi-
organized, so it felt overwhelming after a while, but I couldn't
BEGIN to think about how to even start.
My Mom never helped me. She nagged occasionally about cleaning up,
but my solution? Call Grandma! My Grandma was the queen of
organization, she loved feeling needed (and she WAS needed) so I
would call her to come have a cleaning day with me. I loved it when
she helped me clean my room. She would take that overwhelming task,
and break it into baby steps, giving me one simple job at a time,
while she did something else.
Oh how I loved my room when we were done. We had a nice day of it,
good conversation and a clean room to top it all off. Had my Mom
only understood that she could be my partner, she could be a lovely
assistant, and I would have enjoyed bonding time while cleaning,
instead of building resentment.....it would have been SO much better.
Moms out there that expect toddlers to pick up after themselves,
forget about it. Would you rather spend their toddlerhood nagging,
and trying to achieve something unnatural, or just enjoying them? It
passes SO quickly, take it from someone with a child getting close
to adult age, the toddler phase is over with in the blink of an eye,
and you never, ever get it back.
You will be saying goodby to that cute, chubby toddler soon. You
will say goodbye to that sweet 6 year old. And on it goes.....spend
your time enjoying every moment, forget about cleaning, it really
isn't important. Hire a maid if you have to, just enjoy your babies
while their little. Heck, same thing applies for teens. I'd so much
rather focus on my time with Trevor, enjoying things together, than
nagging him to meet MY expectations.
Ren
"It could be way
too for a 15yo to handle on their own. They need Mama and/or Daddy
down on the floor doing most of the clean up."
I'm going to relate my own experience as a teen here.
I am still a lot like my teen self as far as "stuff" goes.:) I don't
like putting something back when I'm done with it. If I need it
again in a minute, it's much more convenient if it's still out. It's
taken a huge amount of self discipline, to be able to NOT always do
that.
As a teen (and even after moving out on my own) I just didn't care.
If I was done with something, it went on the floor. My room had
stuff strewn from wall to wall, usually a small path to my bed!
Funny thing is, I function much better when things are semi-
organized, so it felt overwhelming after a while, but I couldn't
BEGIN to think about how to even start.
My Mom never helped me. She nagged occasionally about cleaning up,
but my solution? Call Grandma! My Grandma was the queen of
organization, she loved feeling needed (and she WAS needed) so I
would call her to come have a cleaning day with me. I loved it when
she helped me clean my room. She would take that overwhelming task,
and break it into baby steps, giving me one simple job at a time,
while she did something else.
Oh how I loved my room when we were done. We had a nice day of it,
good conversation and a clean room to top it all off. Had my Mom
only understood that she could be my partner, she could be a lovely
assistant, and I would have enjoyed bonding time while cleaning,
instead of building resentment.....it would have been SO much better.
Moms out there that expect toddlers to pick up after themselves,
forget about it. Would you rather spend their toddlerhood nagging,
and trying to achieve something unnatural, or just enjoying them? It
passes SO quickly, take it from someone with a child getting close
to adult age, the toddler phase is over with in the blink of an eye,
and you never, ever get it back.
You will be saying goodby to that cute, chubby toddler soon. You
will say goodbye to that sweet 6 year old. And on it goes.....spend
your time enjoying every moment, forget about cleaning, it really
isn't important. Hire a maid if you have to, just enjoy your babies
while their little. Heck, same thing applies for teens. I'd so much
rather focus on my time with Trevor, enjoying things together, than
nagging him to meet MY expectations.
Ren
Kelly Ferry
Ren,
I SO needed to read this today. Joyfully. That's the
word that has been crashing around in my head today as
I attempt to get the gardening work done at the same
time I try to keep my 1yo daughter's needs met. I'm
missing my 12 yo son so much, he's away visiting his
Dad. But also remembering that thinking of him as an
extra pair of hands is a huge mistake!
The small-scale organic farm is my dream. Not my kids'
dream. I have to find my way with this, and I know
that the chances of getting the help I need will be
greatly improved if I can be an inviting and joyful
companion in whatever *chore* I am enndeavoring to
accomplish. Lots of practice. It's going to take an
awful lot of practice.
In recognizing all of this, I've had to scale back on
what I bite off...with a one year old to take care of,
it seems prudent to wait on the chickens and
goats...to wait on the orchard...to take the medicinal
herb gardens slowly...
I just wrote my son a letter for his birthday and
mailed it to him at his father's. In it I apologize
for the way I have been communicating with him
recently. I tell him that I realize I'm having a hard
time letting go of the little boy and letting him move
on into the young man he's becoming, but that now that
I see it, I am ready and willing.
I hope that my putting it out there to him in this way
will help me to remember that I want a healthy and
sane relationship with him.
I'm really seeing that unschooling is an extension of
a healthy family life. I am enjoying the threads on
this list because they often start at the foundation,
the family.
One thing I have learned and would like to share, is
that when I strive for happiness...for myself or for
my kids or husband, or anyone else for that matter...I
end up spinning my wheels...but when I strive for
freedom from unhappiness...there's a certain balance
that occurs. There is no high from which to crash.
There is nothing to let go of other than the
unhappiness...and what is left in its place is an
inner quiet.
I'm going to keep trying to do that today. Let go of
the unhappiness.
Warmly,
Kelly
--- Ren <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
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I SO needed to read this today. Joyfully. That's the
word that has been crashing around in my head today as
I attempt to get the gardening work done at the same
time I try to keep my 1yo daughter's needs met. I'm
missing my 12 yo son so much, he's away visiting his
Dad. But also remembering that thinking of him as an
extra pair of hands is a huge mistake!
The small-scale organic farm is my dream. Not my kids'
dream. I have to find my way with this, and I know
that the chances of getting the help I need will be
greatly improved if I can be an inviting and joyful
companion in whatever *chore* I am enndeavoring to
accomplish. Lots of practice. It's going to take an
awful lot of practice.
In recognizing all of this, I've had to scale back on
what I bite off...with a one year old to take care of,
it seems prudent to wait on the chickens and
goats...to wait on the orchard...to take the medicinal
herb gardens slowly...
I just wrote my son a letter for his birthday and
mailed it to him at his father's. In it I apologize
for the way I have been communicating with him
recently. I tell him that I realize I'm having a hard
time letting go of the little boy and letting him move
on into the young man he's becoming, but that now that
I see it, I am ready and willing.
I hope that my putting it out there to him in this way
will help me to remember that I want a healthy and
sane relationship with him.
I'm really seeing that unschooling is an extension of
a healthy family life. I am enjoying the threads on
this list because they often start at the foundation,
the family.
One thing I have learned and would like to share, is
that when I strive for happiness...for myself or for
my kids or husband, or anyone else for that matter...I
end up spinning my wheels...but when I strive for
freedom from unhappiness...there's a certain balance
that occurs. There is no high from which to crash.
There is nothing to let go of other than the
unhappiness...and what is left in its place is an
inner quiet.
I'm going to keep trying to do that today. Let go of
the unhappiness.
Warmly,
Kelly
--- Ren <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>__________________________________
> I just lost the quote I was going to use...darnit!
> But this idea of feeling like the "slave" is
> something I understand. It's still our job as the
> parent, to change how we see our own role in family
> life, and especially in clean up.
> Those of you that chose the farm life, all the
> animals etc....did you stop to think that your
> children didn't choose the family they were born
> into? They didn't choose to have a farm with lots of
> work that needs to be done? They might love those
> animals, but there is NO way possible, that a young
> child could understand all the work that goes into
> it. So even if they don't want to get rid of them at
> this point (it's all they've known after all) try to
> remember that the ADULTS chose the lifestyle and now
> the kids are expected to pitch in and do the work to
> support the life the parents chose!!
> That's not fair in my book.
>
> My Dad had a ton of childhood resentment over all
> the farm chores he was required to do. It didn't
> "teach" him responsibility, it taught him
> resentment. He HATES farms to this day. Other
> personality types would grow up to be farmers
> themselves, but the lesson of forced chores lives on
> in resentment, not responsibility.
> Responsibility is learned in it's own way and time,
> like all else. Not in a vacuum....in a rich
> environment in which a person has OPPORTUNITIES to
> be responsible, but it's not forced.
> Just like reading. Surround the child with lots of
> reasons to read, great materials, and they do
> eventually.
>
> If the mother is running around picking up, feeling
> like a slave and not saying anything, that's not the
> balance we're talking about either.
> I think it's hugely our job to change our attitudes
> about clean up...WE chose to have children, WE chose
> the work that goes with it, WE should choose to be
> joyful and thankful.
> Every time I get weary, I just thank the universe
> for the mess that is only here because my loved ones
> are. Believe me, I'd LOVE to clean up after my Mom
> today...she's gone and I will never clean up after
> her again. I'd give anything to fold her laundry, or
> brush her hair, or help her shower.....it would mean
> she was still with me.
> I remember that as I pick up a child's shoes. How
> very sweet these reminders are, that we have
> children and they are in our homes, happy and
> healthy!
>
> I do let my kids know when I'm overwhelmed, I DO let
> them know I want things to find their way to the
> garbage. I also ask for their input in what would
> help them, help ME.:)
> Most of the time, if I'm happily doing something, I
> have at least one person want to join in. The key
> here, is children join in to any activity that looks
> fun...they're smart to avoid the ones you seem
> stressed or resentful about! Would YOU want to join
> an adult that seemed to hate what they were doing? I
> wouldn't.
>
> Joy is contagious. If we spread true joy, then the
> unschooling/chores etc.... all fall into place. The
> focus is our relationships, the focus is being
> happy, all else will resolve itself with joy as our
> guide.
>
> Ren
>
>
> Learn about unschooling at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
>
>
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Ren Allen
"Dad's interest may bring extra flies in to
the house or smell bad or make it so we can never go on vacation,
but it's what he loves to do."
I have to ask though, you can never go on vacation? So what if
someone in your family really, really NEEDS to travel? It's supposed
to be about meeting everyone's needs, not honoring Dad's interests
in lieu of someone elses.
If Dad's interest overshadows the entire family's interests, it
might be something I wouldn't support wholeheartedly. Depends.
Sounds like you've found your balance, and actually, my post wasn't
about you at ALL AnneMarie.
Someone else had posted about they're little farm and the kids
being expected to pitch in.
My post was about the idea of kids not choosing the family lifestyle
they're born into, and how we shouldn't automatically expect them to
love our choices...it was about an idea, not you....honest.
And I've never advocated supporting children's interests without
question. If their interest invades my personal boundaries in some
way (like your phobia example) I WOULD question and try to find a
creative way to meet their need without making ME go against my own
comfort. It's great to step out of the box, it's also great to know
oneself and honor your own boundaries. Again, it depends.
the house or smell bad or make it so we can never go on vacation,
but it's what he loves to do."
I have to ask though, you can never go on vacation? So what if
someone in your family really, really NEEDS to travel? It's supposed
to be about meeting everyone's needs, not honoring Dad's interests
in lieu of someone elses.
If Dad's interest overshadows the entire family's interests, it
might be something I wouldn't support wholeheartedly. Depends.
Sounds like you've found your balance, and actually, my post wasn't
about you at ALL AnneMarie.
Someone else had posted about they're little farm and the kids
being expected to pitch in.
My post was about the idea of kids not choosing the family lifestyle
they're born into, and how we shouldn't automatically expect them to
love our choices...it was about an idea, not you....honest.
And I've never advocated supporting children's interests without
question. If their interest invades my personal boundaries in some
way (like your phobia example) I WOULD question and try to find a
creative way to meet their need without making ME go against my own
comfort. It's great to step out of the box, it's also great to know
oneself and honor your own boundaries. Again, it depends.
Geneva Goza
thanks Ren!!
Geneva M. Goza
Avon
Independent Sales Representative
214-663-0141
goza@...
"It's a beautiful time to buy or sell Avon!"
check out my website!
www.youravon.com/ggoza
Geneva M. Goza
Avon
Independent Sales Representative
214-663-0141
goza@...
"It's a beautiful time to buy or sell Avon!"
check out my website!
www.youravon.com/ggoza
----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 1:45 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] "slave" labor
To you moms with teens - if your children liked the mess as
pre(un)schoolers, and you indulged them, how are their rooms as
teens?<<<<<
So funny you should ask....every one of my kids is totally different.
I'm like Kelly, I do ok with mess, but it can't be totally out of
hand or I get stressed. So I usually clean their rooms for them when
they're younger, and with them as they learn to join in.
Let's see....
My 14 y.o. goes through phases of mess, but he loves organization.
For the last several years, he'll keep his room at a certain clean
level most of the time. If it gets messy, he'll eventually go into a
deep clean phase and gut the room, ending up with perfection.
He rarely even asks for help anymore.
Jared (almost 11) likes neat, but hates to clean at ALL. It's just
not something he enjoys at this point. Yet he doesn't make much
mess. He's my artistic dreamer and just prefers being in his own
world....other activities (other than Yu-gi-oh, drawing or gaming)
are a distraction for him. I clean his room for him and it stays
pretty nice. He's a low maintenance kinda guy.
Sierra (7) is totally, utterly messy. I can clean her room and in
two hours it looks like a storm hit. It's not that she doesn't care,
she's just a very busy, interesting person and NEEDS lots of stuff
out. She loves having me clean her room, is very grateful and tries
to pick up to the best of her ability. I was a lot like her, and I
figured out how to be halfway organized in life anyway.
Jalen is my toddler....he doesn't care if everything is out or
picked up (actually, he might prefer everything out) we all clean up
after him. It's intersting, because he'll come out when I'm sitting
on the couch and take a dirty plate or bowl from me and deliver it
to the kitchen. He makes a LOT of mess...but he's also learning by
example, to do things for other people. When he dumps something on
the floor, I'll start cleaning up and say "Jalen, could you help
me?" Sometimes he'll say "no", sometimes he'll pitch in....I don't
make him feel badly if "no" is the answer. I just do it and
say "well, I don't want to step on yucky food, so I'm going to sweep
this up, could you please put it in the garbage next time?"
Usually he'll nod vaguely, like the thought simply hadn't occurred
to him.:)
I think there is a lot of high expectations of these little people.
Their barely past the baby stage, but they're supposed to understand
about cleaning up after themselves? I think that's setting parents
up for a lot of frustration.
Ren
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"One thing I have learned and would like to share, is
that when I strive for happiness...for myself or for
my kids or husband, or anyone else for that matter...I
end up spinning my wheels...but when I strive for
freedom from unhappiness...there's a certain balance
that occurs. There is no high from which to crash.
There is nothing to let go of other than the
unhappiness...and what is left in its place is an
inner quiet."
Wow. That was really profound, and so true.
Very zen-like Kelly!:)
I've found that when I take responsibility for someone elses
happiness, it causes frustration. Because when my efforts don't
result in happiness, I take it personally. I think the best we can
do is provide the absolute best POSSIBILITY for happiness in our
homes, and then just let things be what they are, without
expectation.
That inner quiet is called enlightenment. It's as simple as that.
Ren
that when I strive for happiness...for myself or for
my kids or husband, or anyone else for that matter...I
end up spinning my wheels...but when I strive for
freedom from unhappiness...there's a certain balance
that occurs. There is no high from which to crash.
There is nothing to let go of other than the
unhappiness...and what is left in its place is an
inner quiet."
Wow. That was really profound, and so true.
Very zen-like Kelly!:)
I've found that when I take responsibility for someone elses
happiness, it causes frustration. Because when my efforts don't
result in happiness, I take it personally. I think the best we can
do is provide the absolute best POSSIBILITY for happiness in our
homes, and then just let things be what they are, without
expectation.
That inner quiet is called enlightenment. It's as simple as that.
Ren
earthmothergypsy
"Those of you that chose the farm life, all the animals etc....did
you stop to think that your children didn't choose the family they
were born into? They didn't choose to have a farm with lots of work
that needs to be done? They might love those animals, but there is NO
way possible, that a young child could understand all the work that
goes into it. So even if they don't want to get rid of them at this
point (it's all they've known after all) try to remember that the
ADULTS chose the lifestyle and now the kids are expected to pitch in
and do the work to support the life the parents chose!! That's not
fair in my book."
Ren,
Actually my older kids DID chose the farm life. They were old enough
to make those choices and bought some of the livestock themselves
with their own earnings. My younger kids will make these decisions
for themselves when they are old enough to. For now, they are not
required to help with animal chores, but they CHOOSE to do it, which
makes it fun and enjoyable for them. If they decide they don't want
farming when they are older, then dh and I will decide what we keep
and what goes. Some animals will stay, because of the foods they
provide--chickens for eggs. :) But they will be cared for by dh and
I.
"I do let my kids know when I'm overwhelmed, I DO let them know I
want things to find their way to the garbage. I also ask for their
input in what would help them, help ME.:) Most of the time, if I'm
happily doing something, I have at least one person want to join in.
The key here, is children join in to any activity that looks
fun...they're smart to avoid the ones you seem stressed or resentful
about! Would YOU want to join an adult that seemed to hate what they
were doing? I wouldn't."
So true! Someone always comes along to help especially if it looks
fun. :)
~A
you stop to think that your children didn't choose the family they
were born into? They didn't choose to have a farm with lots of work
that needs to be done? They might love those animals, but there is NO
way possible, that a young child could understand all the work that
goes into it. So even if they don't want to get rid of them at this
point (it's all they've known after all) try to remember that the
ADULTS chose the lifestyle and now the kids are expected to pitch in
and do the work to support the life the parents chose!! That's not
fair in my book."
Ren,
Actually my older kids DID chose the farm life. They were old enough
to make those choices and bought some of the livestock themselves
with their own earnings. My younger kids will make these decisions
for themselves when they are old enough to. For now, they are not
required to help with animal chores, but they CHOOSE to do it, which
makes it fun and enjoyable for them. If they decide they don't want
farming when they are older, then dh and I will decide what we keep
and what goes. Some animals will stay, because of the foods they
provide--chickens for eggs. :) But they will be cared for by dh and
I.
"I do let my kids know when I'm overwhelmed, I DO let them know I
want things to find their way to the garbage. I also ask for their
input in what would help them, help ME.:) Most of the time, if I'm
happily doing something, I have at least one person want to join in.
The key here, is children join in to any activity that looks
fun...they're smart to avoid the ones you seem stressed or resentful
about! Would YOU want to join an adult that seemed to hate what they
were doing? I wouldn't."
So true! Someone always comes along to help especially if it looks
fun. :)
~A
earthmothergypsy
This also reminds me of the large quiverfull families that use the
older siblings to care for the younger ones, and do all the extra
work because of the size of the family. I have never been
comfortable with this. ~A
--- In [email protected], "Ren" <starsuncloud@n...>
wrote:
job as the parent, to change how we see our own role in family life,
and especially in clean up.
were born into? They didn't choose to have a farm with lots of work
that needs to be done? They might love those animals, but there is NO
way possible, that a young child could understand all the work that
goes into it. So even if they don't want to get rid of them at this
point (it's all they've known after all) try to remember that the
ADULTS chose the lifestyle and now the kids are expected to pitch in
and do the work to support the life the parents chose!!
taught him resentment. He HATES farms to this day. Other personality
types would grow up to be farmers themselves, but the lesson of
forced chores lives on in resentment, not responsibility.
OPPORTUNITIES to be responsible, but it's not forced.
either.
WE should choose to be joyful and thankful.
up after my Mom today...she's gone and I will never clean up after
her again. I'd give anything to fold her laundry, or brush her hair,
or help her shower.....it would mean she was still with me.
and healthy!
input in what would help them, help ME.:)
activity that looks fun...they're smart to avoid the ones you seem
stressed or resentful about! Would YOU want to join an adult that
seemed to hate what they were doing? I wouldn't.
relationships, the focus is being happy, all else will resolve itself
with joy as our guide.
older siblings to care for the younger ones, and do all the extra
work because of the size of the family. I have never been
comfortable with this. ~A
--- In [email protected], "Ren" <starsuncloud@n...>
wrote:
>feeling like the "slave" is something I understand. It's still our
> I just lost the quote I was going to use...darnit! But this idea of
job as the parent, to change how we see our own role in family life,
and especially in clean up.
> Those of you that chose the farm life, all the animals etc....didyou stop to think that your children didn't choose the family they
were born into? They didn't choose to have a farm with lots of work
that needs to be done? They might love those animals, but there is NO
way possible, that a young child could understand all the work that
goes into it. So even if they don't want to get rid of them at this
point (it's all they've known after all) try to remember that the
ADULTS chose the lifestyle and now the kids are expected to pitch in
and do the work to support the life the parents chose!!
> That's not fair in my book.he was required to do. It didn't "teach" him responsibility, it
>
> My Dad had a ton of childhood resentment over all the farm chores
taught him resentment. He HATES farms to this day. Other personality
types would grow up to be farmers themselves, but the lesson of
forced chores lives on in resentment, not responsibility.
> Responsibility is learned in it's own way and time, like all else.Not in a vacuum....in a rich environment in which a person has
OPPORTUNITIES to be responsible, but it's not forced.
> Just like reading. Surround the child with lots of reasons to read,great materials, and they do eventually.
>and not saying anything, that's not the balance we're talking about
> If the mother is running around picking up, feeling like a slave
either.
> I think it's hugely our job to change our attitudes about cleanup...WE chose to have children, WE chose the work that goes with it,
WE should choose to be joyful and thankful.
> Every time I get weary, I just thank the universe for the mess thatis only here because my loved ones are. Believe me, I'd LOVE to clean
up after my Mom today...she's gone and I will never clean up after
her again. I'd give anything to fold her laundry, or brush her hair,
or help her shower.....it would mean she was still with me.
> I remember that as I pick up a child's shoes. How very sweet thesereminders are, that we have children and they are in our homes, happy
and healthy!
>want things to find their way to the garbage. I also ask for their
> I do let my kids know when I'm overwhelmed, I DO let them know I
input in what would help them, help ME.:)
> Most of the time, if I'm happily doing something, I have at leastone person want to join in. The key here, is children join in to any
activity that looks fun...they're smart to avoid the ones you seem
stressed or resentful about! Would YOU want to join an adult that
seemed to hate what they were doing? I wouldn't.
>unschooling/chores etc.... all fall into place. The focus is our
> Joy is contagious. If we spread true joy, then the
relationships, the focus is being happy, all else will resolve itself
with joy as our guide.
>
> Ren
>
>
> Learn about unschooling at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
Ren Allen
">But this idea of feeling like the "slave" is something I
it, and have been away a few days and there are TOO many posts to
search through:-)"
If you aren't willing to sift through them, please don't expect
someone else to either!
Somebody mentioned that it wasn't fair to expect free labor from our
kids....to which another person replied that maybe it wasn't fair
for the parents to be the "slaves" either. Something along those
lines.
I understand the sentiment, because I've sometimes felt like
a "slave". I also recognize that it's my choice to feel that way,
and it isn't healthy. I was saying it's OUR job to change how we
feel, how we view the household work.
Ren
>understand.Which thread was this original thought taken from? I'd like to read
it, and have been away a few days and there are TOO many posts to
search through:-)"
If you aren't willing to sift through them, please don't expect
someone else to either!
Somebody mentioned that it wasn't fair to expect free labor from our
kids....to which another person replied that maybe it wasn't fair
for the parents to be the "slaves" either. Something along those
lines.
I understand the sentiment, because I've sometimes felt like
a "slave". I also recognize that it's my choice to feel that way,
and it isn't healthy. I was saying it's OUR job to change how we
feel, how we view the household work.
Ren
Robyn Coburn
<<<I understand the sentiment, because I've sometimes felt like
a "slave". I also recognize that it's my choice to feel that way,
and it isn't healthy. I was saying it's OUR job to change how we
feel, how we view the household work.>>>
Last night, as I was doing a last quick clean up in the kitchen before bed,
Jayn (4.5) decided to scrub the kitchen floor - by hand. She got out 2
cloths for me to wet for her, and fully expected me to help her. Luckily,
our kitchen is pretty tiny being an apartment. During our work, I was
treated to a long and involved fantasy about the tea party she was planning
on the kitchen floor with her imaginary friend "Googly" tomorrow, and we got
to compare our bare footprints on the moist linoleum, and she did most of
the scrubbing. I cleaned a few lurking food spots that I guess have been
missed by the Swiffer Wetjet (our usual method that Jayn also loves).
Finally I was too tired to do any more, and told her so. She did a few more
wipes and then put her cloth away in the kitchen laundry basket. I have no
idea where it came from, but it was fun.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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a "slave". I also recognize that it's my choice to feel that way,
and it isn't healthy. I was saying it's OUR job to change how we
feel, how we view the household work.>>>
Last night, as I was doing a last quick clean up in the kitchen before bed,
Jayn (4.5) decided to scrub the kitchen floor - by hand. She got out 2
cloths for me to wet for her, and fully expected me to help her. Luckily,
our kitchen is pretty tiny being an apartment. During our work, I was
treated to a long and involved fantasy about the tea party she was planning
on the kitchen floor with her imaginary friend "Googly" tomorrow, and we got
to compare our bare footprints on the moist linoleum, and she did most of
the scrubbing. I cleaned a few lurking food spots that I guess have been
missed by the Swiffer Wetjet (our usual method that Jayn also loves).
Finally I was too tired to do any more, and told her so. She did a few more
wipes and then put her cloth away in the kitchen laundry basket. I have no
idea where it came from, but it was fun.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.717 / Virus Database: 473 - Release Date: 7/8/2004
Robyn Coburn
<<<What's a sage mama?>>>
I believe it is sage as in "wise".
<<<I uses the word "winning" meaning that things are not going MY way.
Ideally, he would want to pitch in without being asked several times. >>>
Exactly - *you* used the words "He is winning". That means that there is a
competition going on.
In the discourses of ordinary parenting, there is a lot about not allowing
the child to be the winner in a supposed competition with the parents, even
in supposedly enlightened philosophies. There is a general pervasive idea
that parents maintaining superiority is essential to the healthy growth of
the kids. This is the same parenting that recommends time-outs and
"consequences". If you are going to unthinkingly use the words and phrases
of this other kind of discourse here, your use of those words is likely to
be challenged, so that we can understand more clearly what you mean.
All we have on line are our words.
My experience on line and IRL is that if I feel a big immediate need to be
defensive about something someone has said, it is probably the very area
that I need to examine most closely. The greater my defensiveness, the more
I really should try to be open to/acceptant of the "criticism". It's very
hard though! :)
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.717 / Virus Database: 473 - Release Date: 7/8/2004
I believe it is sage as in "wise".
<<<I uses the word "winning" meaning that things are not going MY way.
Ideally, he would want to pitch in without being asked several times. >>>
Exactly - *you* used the words "He is winning". That means that there is a
competition going on.
In the discourses of ordinary parenting, there is a lot about not allowing
the child to be the winner in a supposed competition with the parents, even
in supposedly enlightened philosophies. There is a general pervasive idea
that parents maintaining superiority is essential to the healthy growth of
the kids. This is the same parenting that recommends time-outs and
"consequences". If you are going to unthinkingly use the words and phrases
of this other kind of discourse here, your use of those words is likely to
be challenged, so that we can understand more clearly what you mean.
All we have on line are our words.
My experience on line and IRL is that if I feel a big immediate need to be
defensive about something someone has said, it is probably the very area
that I need to examine most closely. The greater my defensiveness, the more
I really should try to be open to/acceptant of the "criticism". It's very
hard though! :)
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.717 / Virus Database: 473 - Release Date: 7/8/2004
Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese
> Joy is contagious. If we spread true joy, then theunschooling/chores etc.... all fall into place. The focus is our
relationships, the focus is being happy, all else will resolve itself
with joy as our guide.
>Ren,
> Ren
I just wanted to say that I deeply appreciate this and the other posts you
have written about Joy. They have resonated with me a lot and really helped
my focus, reminding me what it's all about. Not the dishes or the trash or
the clutter, but relationships and happiness. I'm going to check out that
Living Joyfully book you keep recommending too!
Thanks for being here spreading your joy with us!
Cheers,
Joan
Tina
I'm wondering if there's anyone here that's come to unschooling "half-
way through life." There's a lot of talk about how to do things with
small children, etc. What about the family coming to unschooling
with an unwilling partner, or teenage children, or part of the way
through traditional schooling? Is there anyone out there that's
experienced this? Anyone out there willing to share wisdom gained
from making the transition with children maybe 10 and over?
Just wondering...
Thanks - Tina
way through life." There's a lot of talk about how to do things with
small children, etc. What about the family coming to unschooling
with an unwilling partner, or teenage children, or part of the way
through traditional schooling? Is there anyone out there that's
experienced this? Anyone out there willing to share wisdom gained
from making the transition with children maybe 10 and over?
Just wondering...
Thanks - Tina
Ren Allen
"Thanks for being here spreading your joy with us!"
Thank you for the kind words.:)
I write to remind myself. I write to help me keep in mind the things
I value and hold dear, but aren't always easy to remember in the
heat of the moment.
The more I write about what I deeply believe, the more easily it
becomes part of my behavior.
So thank you to everyone for being here. Those that I've learned so
much from along the way, and those asking me questions. Thank you
from the bottom of my heart.
Ren
Thank you for the kind words.:)
I write to remind myself. I write to help me keep in mind the things
I value and hold dear, but aren't always easy to remember in the
heat of the moment.
The more I write about what I deeply believe, the more easily it
becomes part of my behavior.
So thank you to everyone for being here. Those that I've learned so
much from along the way, and those asking me questions. Thank you
from the bottom of my heart.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/11/2004 5:34:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
zoocrew@... writes:
What about the family coming to unschooling
with an unwilling partner, or teenage children, or part of the way
through traditional schooling? Is there anyone out there that's
experienced this? Anyone out there willing to share wisdom gained
from making the transition with children maybe 10 and over?
<<<<<
We pulled Cameron out of private school after eight years in school---after
sixth grade. He was 12. He's 16 now, and we also have an eight year old,
Duncan.
My husband is a Citadel graduate (think Lords of Discipline!) and from a
VERY traditional/top-down/mom's-in-charge family.
What would youlike to know? <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zoocrew@... writes:
What about the family coming to unschooling
with an unwilling partner, or teenage children, or part of the way
through traditional schooling? Is there anyone out there that's
experienced this? Anyone out there willing to share wisdom gained
from making the transition with children maybe 10 and over?
<<<<<
We pulled Cameron out of private school after eight years in school---after
sixth grade. He was 12. He's 16 now, and we also have an eight year old,
Duncan.
My husband is a Citadel graduate (think Lords of Discipline!) and from a
VERY traditional/top-down/mom's-in-charge family.
What would youlike to know? <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
On Jul 11, 2004, at 2:32 PM, Geneva Goza wrote:
man, don't get me wrong ... I also prefer that I had a helping hand for
clean ups, but I don't expect it and it's really a welcome surprise
when it happens. :D
will sense that your trust IS "just for now" and could be revoked at
any given moment. Trust in your child wholeheartedly that they *don't*
wish to be a 'slob' or to make your life harder. Full on trust between
the two of you can only be a wonderful thing. :D
*literal* pissing matches -- more messes. ;) I can only reply to
what you had written in your post because that's all I have to go on.
You had written,
"HOw can I explain to him that he can do that but he needs to help pick
up at the end of
the day, so far it;s a big struggle and he is "winning" by simply
ignoring me."
Then you said that you used the word "winning" meaning that things were
not going "your" way (above). I'll rephrase...... did you realize that
you had started to think of your relationship with your son as a
"competition" where there is a winner and, in effect, a loser? There
is more to lose by being the winner.
Your little guys is not trying to win anything or manipulate you, Mama.
:) He's just being a little boy. He doesn't even have that concept
as this point. Not that he couldn't grasp the meaning, but rather that
he's so very innocent of it. Don't you want to keep it that way for
him? I can tell how much you love him your sweet little son .... help
him to stay as innocent in your thoughts as you know it in your heart.
:)
may never some to pass. And so what if someone would consider him a
slob? Really, there are plenty of young men who have messy apartments,
but they sure can clean it up quickly if a girl was coming over that
they wanted to impress! LOL
much of a housekeeper and my dad wasn't much of a husband. They fought
a LOT. Lots of arguments and physical fights. My mom would get so
crazy about us making messes because she was the one that was going to
get yelled at when my dad came home from work. That really sucked for
us as kids and that sucked for her to have to deal with. They
divorced. They both remarried and they're the same though the spouses
have changed. Luckily for my mom she didn't marry a man who cares
about a spotless home. Unluckily for my stepmom she then had to deal
with a drill sergeant for a husband. They divorced also. Twice.
My DH doesn't give a hoot about a sparkling house. It's very low on
his list of priorities. I used to apologize (good grief!) for the
house being a wreck when he came home from work because I was busy
being a Mama to our two little ones (20 months apart). He would laugh
and shake his head and say, "but THAT is what your supposed to be
doing....we didn't have kids so that you could stay home and be Martha
Stewart!" Oh yeah. Duh. LOL
Alternately, your DS may not grow up to be a slob. Maybe he'll be a
guy that actually puts his socks in the hamper and makes a meal for his
family. That won't happen because he was cajoled into cleaning up his
blocks when he was three years old though. :)
If we were to transpose the mannerisms of our three-year-olds onto the
adults that they will become if would be rather creepy considering that
my 3yo DD still needs me to wipe her butt. LOL Yuck!
isn't it? I did try my best to write as if you were a friend hanging
out with me and I had a smile on my face and earnest excitement in my
voice. I guess that was a bust. LOL I wasn't trying to offend you in
the least, but I got your attention. ;) hehehe Again, my use of
"pissing match" was slang for a fruitless competition. From reading
your own words, that is what I had gotten out of it and that's all I
can go on. KWIM? FWIW, nobody said that you were crazy either. *S*
:) I want what's best for my children too; I've made *plenty* of
mistakes while on my path to do my best for them. Many many many times
my eyes were opened to things that I did not even realize where
happening until a friend posed questions or suggestions that I hadn't
thought twice about or knew there was more than one way (MY way) to do
things. I would get mad (in my thoughts) that they had said that maybe
what I was doing wasn't THE best way. And sometimes when I think that
I have come far I realize that I can always go just a little further.
Maya Angelou said "when you know better you do better" and I really
like that bit of wisdom.
trying to criticize you OR label you. I'm only tossing ideas out there
and reflecting back to you what you've written. Ya know how sometimes
you can write something and proofread it over and over and looked at it
line by line and still not see the glaring typo that your friend can
point out to you right away? I always feel so silly when that happens,
like "DUH! How did I miss what was right there in front of me the whole
time? I was so used to seeing it that it didn't seem out of place so I
glossed right over it!" I'm not *trying* to point out mistakes so that
you feel silly or sad -- only because you asked us to "proofread" the
issue and you might not have noticed the boo boo. :)
Much hugs and encouragement,
-Tracy-
> [My request has always been that he help out a little and mostly justBut it's not really a "request" if he can't opt out, is it? ;) Hey,
> be there to see that after we make a huge mess, we all pick up
> together. ]
man, don't get me wrong ... I also prefer that I had a helping hand for
clean ups, but I don't expect it and it's really a welcome surprise
when it happens. :D
> [I don't think it's a big issue now, I understand that it's all veryHmmm, well, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that your child
> normal and that I am the one who likes things picked up. I was
> however saying that I do have a problem with this if he is a teenager.
> By that I mean, I'm willing to trust him and go with it for now but I
> don't think I could be so patient when he is a teen. ]
will sense that your trust IS "just for now" and could be revoked at
any given moment. Trust in your child wholeheartedly that they *don't*
wish to be a 'slob' or to make your life harder. Full on trust between
the two of you can only be a wonderful thing. :D
> [What's a sage mama?]Sage meaning wise; having wisdom and experience.
> ** 3) He's "winning"??????? When did your parent-child relationshipI was using slang but I wasn't joking. Of course, I don't mean
> turn
> into a pissing match? Seriously. That's not going to help you two
> have a loving, trusting relationship. **
>
> [I'm not sure if you were joking about that or not but my son and I
> have never had "pissing matches," nor am I resentful...at all, he's
> 3.5!!! <snip> I uses the word "winning" meaning that things are not
> going MY way. ]
*literal* pissing matches -- more messes. ;) I can only reply to
what you had written in your post because that's all I have to go on.
You had written,
"HOw can I explain to him that he can do that but he needs to help pick
up at the end of
the day, so far it;s a big struggle and he is "winning" by simply
ignoring me."
Then you said that you used the word "winning" meaning that things were
not going "your" way (above). I'll rephrase...... did you realize that
you had started to think of your relationship with your son as a
"competition" where there is a winner and, in effect, a loser? There
is more to lose by being the winner.
Your little guys is not trying to win anything or manipulate you, Mama.
:) He's just being a little boy. He doesn't even have that concept
as this point. Not that he couldn't grasp the meaning, but rather that
he's so very innocent of it. Don't you want to keep it that way for
him? I can tell how much you love him your sweet little son .... help
him to stay as innocent in your thoughts as you know it in your heart.
:)
> [So, if I just leave it alone, clean up myself, who is he going to beBut he's not in his 20s -today-. You're worrying about scenarios that
> when he grows up? If he were in his 20s today, he would be considered
> a slob.]
may never some to pass. And so what if someone would consider him a
slob? Really, there are plenty of young men who have messy apartments,
but they sure can clean it up quickly if a girl was coming over that
they wanted to impress! LOL
> [I think my fear is that he will grow up, get married and fight withDid that happen with your parents? It did with mine. My mom was never
> his wife because her expects her to do it all.]
much of a housekeeper and my dad wasn't much of a husband. They fought
a LOT. Lots of arguments and physical fights. My mom would get so
crazy about us making messes because she was the one that was going to
get yelled at when my dad came home from work. That really sucked for
us as kids and that sucked for her to have to deal with. They
divorced. They both remarried and they're the same though the spouses
have changed. Luckily for my mom she didn't marry a man who cares
about a spotless home. Unluckily for my stepmom she then had to deal
with a drill sergeant for a husband. They divorced also. Twice.
My DH doesn't give a hoot about a sparkling house. It's very low on
his list of priorities. I used to apologize (good grief!) for the
house being a wreck when he came home from work because I was busy
being a Mama to our two little ones (20 months apart). He would laugh
and shake his head and say, "but THAT is what your supposed to be
doing....we didn't have kids so that you could stay home and be Martha
Stewart!" Oh yeah. Duh. LOL
Alternately, your DS may not grow up to be a slob. Maybe he'll be a
guy that actually puts his socks in the hamper and makes a meal for his
family. That won't happen because he was cajoled into cleaning up his
blocks when he was three years old though. :)
If we were to transpose the mannerisms of our three-year-olds onto the
adults that they will become if would be rather creepy considering that
my 3yo DD still needs me to wipe her butt. LOL Yuck!
> Tracy, I know we don't really know eachother and sometimes tones ofIt is hard to convey tone of voice and facial expressions in email
> voice and such can be lost in email but I have to admit, I'm a bit
> offended that anyone here or elsewhere would think I would be crazy
> enough to have a pissing match with my young son.
isn't it? I did try my best to write as if you were a friend hanging
out with me and I had a smile on my face and earnest excitement in my
voice. I guess that was a bust. LOL I wasn't trying to offend you in
the least, but I got your attention. ;) hehehe Again, my use of
"pissing match" was slang for a fruitless competition. From reading
your own words, that is what I had gotten out of it and that's all I
can go on. KWIM? FWIW, nobody said that you were crazy either. *S*
> I just want what's BEST for him.Of course you do! You wouldn't be here asking questions if you didn't.
:) I want what's best for my children too; I've made *plenty* of
mistakes while on my path to do my best for them. Many many many times
my eyes were opened to things that I did not even realize where
happening until a friend posed questions or suggestions that I hadn't
thought twice about or knew there was more than one way (MY way) to do
things. I would get mad (in my thoughts) that they had said that maybe
what I was doing wasn't THE best way. And sometimes when I think that
I have come far I realize that I can always go just a little further.
Maya Angelou said "when you know better you do better" and I really
like that bit of wisdom.
> I am here for support and knowledge, not to be criticized or labeledOh, I haven't judged you, Geneva. Not in the least! :) I wasn't
> resentful. I feel that you've misjudged me.
trying to criticize you OR label you. I'm only tossing ideas out there
and reflecting back to you what you've written. Ya know how sometimes
you can write something and proofread it over and over and looked at it
line by line and still not see the glaring typo that your friend can
point out to you right away? I always feel so silly when that happens,
like "DUH! How did I miss what was right there in front of me the whole
time? I was so used to seeing it that it didn't seem out of place so I
glossed right over it!" I'm not *trying* to point out mistakes so that
you feel silly or sad -- only because you asked us to "proofread" the
issue and you might not have noticed the boo boo. :)
Much hugs and encouragement,
-Tracy-
April M
Well, this would be us. My kids were 12, 10, 8 and 4 when we truly started
our unschooling adventure...though we were heading in that direction for a
while. Dh is on board in theory but not always in practice....and the same
goes with parenting...in theory, dh and I have few disagreements...in
practice....ah, well...we are learning.....As far as wisdom gained....I
don't always feel very wise so I'm not sure how much I can help. But if you
have some specific questions, I'll do my best to add my 2 cents.
~April
Mom to Kate-17, Lisa-15, Karl-13, & Ben-8.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County.. http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"It must be remembered that the purpose of education is not to fill the
minds of students with facts... it is to teach them to think." ~~ Robert
Hutchins
-----Original Message-----
From: Tina [mailto:zoocrew@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 5:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: "slave" labor - what about this?
I'm wondering if there's anyone here that's come to unschooling "half-
way through life." There's a lot of talk about how to do things with
small children, etc. What about the family coming to unschooling
with an unwilling partner, or teenage children, or part of the way
through traditional schooling? Is there anyone out there that's
experienced this? Anyone out there willing to share wisdom gained
from making the transition with children maybe 10 and over?
Just wondering...
Thanks - Tina
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
our unschooling adventure...though we were heading in that direction for a
while. Dh is on board in theory but not always in practice....and the same
goes with parenting...in theory, dh and I have few disagreements...in
practice....ah, well...we are learning.....As far as wisdom gained....I
don't always feel very wise so I'm not sure how much I can help. But if you
have some specific questions, I'll do my best to add my 2 cents.
~April
Mom to Kate-17, Lisa-15, Karl-13, & Ben-8.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County.. http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"It must be remembered that the purpose of education is not to fill the
minds of students with facts... it is to teach them to think." ~~ Robert
Hutchins
-----Original Message-----
From: Tina [mailto:zoocrew@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 5:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: "slave" labor - what about this?
I'm wondering if there's anyone here that's come to unschooling "half-
way through life." There's a lot of talk about how to do things with
small children, etc. What about the family coming to unschooling
with an unwilling partner, or teenage children, or part of the way
through traditional schooling? Is there anyone out there that's
experienced this? Anyone out there willing to share wisdom gained
from making the transition with children maybe 10 and over?
Just wondering...
Thanks - Tina
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Webinfusion
>If you aren't willing to sift through them, please don't expect someone >else to either!In other groups I belong tom folks who change the subject line usually use their new subject, followed by "Was: Re: __________", whatever the old line was.
I was thinking it would be a simple thing for the poster to remember. I apologize for my assumption:-)Certainly DIDN'T mean the above should take place for my convenience.
Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 3:56 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] "slave" labor
">But this idea of feeling like the "slave" is something I
>understand.
Which thread was this original thought taken from? I'd like to read
it, and have been away a few days and there are TOO many posts to
search through:-)"
If you aren't willing to sift through them, please don't expect
someone else to either!
Somebody mentioned that it wasn't fair to expect free labor from our
kids....to which another person replied that maybe it wasn't fair
for the parents to be the "slaves" either. Something along those
lines.
I understand the sentiment, because I've sometimes felt like
a "slave". I also recognize that it's my choice to feel that way,
and it isn't healthy. I was saying it's OUR job to change how we
feel, how we view the household work.
Ren
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
>>>I have to ask though, you can never go on vacation? So what ifsomeone in your family really, really NEEDS to travel? It's supposed
to be about meeting everyone's needs, not honoring Dad's interests
in lieu of someone else's.>>>
We work as a team here. There isn't any honoring of just one persons
interest. It is very hard to go on vacation, but hopefully in the future we
will be able to. It's more for practical reasons that we don't travel now.
For example we have 14 cows. If we are away and they get out on to the road
someone could get badly hurt or killed. It's a lot to ask someone to herd
them in when it's so easy for us to do.
Our kids are little, but I see traveling as an important part of
Unschooling for my family. If I have to I will take them and leave my
husband at home. 8^)
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Ren Allen [mailto:starsuncloud@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 3:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] "slave" labor
"Dad's interest may bring extra flies in to
the house or smell bad or make it so we can never go on vacation,
but it's what he loves to do."
I have to ask though, you can never go on vacation? So what if
someone in your family really, really NEEDS to travel? It's supposed
to be about meeting everyone's needs, not honoring Dad's interests
in lieu of someone elses.
If Dad's interest overshadows the entire family's interests, it
might be something I wouldn't support wholeheartedly. Depends.
Sounds like you've found your balance, and actually, my post wasn't
about you at ALL AnneMarie.
Someone else had posted about they're little farm and the kids
being expected to pitch in.
My post was about the idea of kids not choosing the family lifestyle
they're born into, and how we shouldn't automatically expect them to
love our choices...it was about an idea, not you....honest.
And I've never advocated supporting children's interests without
question. If their interest invades my personal boundaries in some
way (like your phobia example) I WOULD question and try to find a
creative way to meet their need without making ME go against my own
comfort. It's great to step out of the box, it's also great to know
oneself and honor your own boundaries. Again, it depends.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andrea
"I think there is a lot of high expectations of these little people.
Their barely past the baby stage, but they're supposed to understand
about cleaning up after themselves? I think that's setting parents
up for a lot of frustration."
I find myself OFTEN so frustrated with Tobin and myself when my
expectations are high. And I HAVE gotten upset when he didn't willingly
want to help! Things go much more smoothly when I drop the expectation.
No, they can't know about cleaning up yet.but I like to give him 1 job,
and I ask him what he would like it to be. The other day he dumped out
4 wipes boxes full of various sorted things (colored chips, lacing
beads, alphabet picture cards). He didn't just dump them though..I'm
still finding beads in places like under the mattress.its more like an
explosion happened!!! I would normally be very frustrated, (we had just
finished cleaning his room) but I saw there was a reason he had to do
this, was very intent to fill them with the things he "had" to fill them
with. So, after he finished the activity that he needed the boxes for,
and after he had stepped on a few beads and realized he could hurt
himself we decided to clean them up. I gave him 1 task, and I let him
choose it, and he was very willing! I think when there is an
experienced knowing of why we do things, it makes it easier to see that
the work is important. And we all know how kids like their work to be
important like mommy and daddy's!
Andrea in California
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Their barely past the baby stage, but they're supposed to understand
about cleaning up after themselves? I think that's setting parents
up for a lot of frustration."
I find myself OFTEN so frustrated with Tobin and myself when my
expectations are high. And I HAVE gotten upset when he didn't willingly
want to help! Things go much more smoothly when I drop the expectation.
No, they can't know about cleaning up yet.but I like to give him 1 job,
and I ask him what he would like it to be. The other day he dumped out
4 wipes boxes full of various sorted things (colored chips, lacing
beads, alphabet picture cards). He didn't just dump them though..I'm
still finding beads in places like under the mattress.its more like an
explosion happened!!! I would normally be very frustrated, (we had just
finished cleaning his room) but I saw there was a reason he had to do
this, was very intent to fill them with the things he "had" to fill them
with. So, after he finished the activity that he needed the boxes for,
and after he had stepped on a few beads and realized he could hurt
himself we decided to clean them up. I gave him 1 task, and I let him
choose it, and he was very willing! I think when there is an
experienced knowing of why we do things, it makes it easier to see that
the work is important. And we all know how kids like their work to be
important like mommy and daddy's!
Andrea in California
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andrea
"give him 1 job,
and I ask him what he would like it to be."
Okay, after I read my own post I realized that next time I think I would
get even better results if I asked him if he'd like to help.then
offering ways he might do that, if he said yes.just an after-thought.
Andrea in California
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and I ask him what he would like it to be."
Okay, after I read my own post I realized that next time I think I would
get even better results if I asked him if he'd like to help.then
offering ways he might do that, if he said yes.just an after-thought.
Andrea in California
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cris
>To you moms with teens - if your children liked the mess aspre(un)schoolers,
>and you indulged them, how are their rooms as teens?Hi, I introduced myself in message #1166 and just want to reiterate
that my dd is a grown unschooler, and my ds is an almost-grown unschooler.
DD is nineteen. She's living on her own, (has been since 15 1/2 --
her choice -- very long story), setting up her own household and
"nesting" in preparation for the imminent birth of my grandbaby.
During her childhood there were a few shortlived attempts to use
various (gently) coercive methods to encourage helpfulness around the
house, but overall it was not required. Her bedroom and our playroom,
from toddlerhood til the minute she left, were ALWAYS topsy-turvy with
toys, art supplies, clothes, costumes, game pieces, science
experiments and more clothes, with the exception of about one day,
about twice a year, when I would wade into the maelstrom to sort and
organize as best I could. Would she have preferred it neat and
well-organized? I imagine so: she usually expressed great
appreciation and admiration when her room was "done." Would she make
the least bit of effort to keep it that way? Not a chance: there was
far too much creative energy to burn and far too many fun and
interesting activities to engage in to be bothered taking the few
seconds to put away a toy in its "proper" place, or a dirty sock in
the hamper. :)
Now - her apartment is spotless. Her housekeeping and cleanliness
standards are far, far, far higher than mine have ever been. It's HER
place and she wants it nice so she does the work to keep it that way.
I imagine her standard will change a bit as her family grows, but
maybe not. Either way, SHE is the one responsible for HER choices,
which was always the most important issue for her -- and, eventually,
for me, too.
>It's important foryr old.
>their room to be safe and toys EVERYWHERE isn't really safe for a 1
I'm wondering what's unsafe about it. If she's crawling then she's
not going to trip on anything; if she's walking she's not likely to go
more than a couple steps without stopping to play with something.
My ds loved to make a nest out of the toybox, too. The toys were
almost always dumped in a corner - or rather, dumped in the middle of
the room then pushed into the corner. :) If I were worried about the
mess being dangerous, I'd probably put a "baby" fence/gate around the
pile of toys, leaving them visible and accessible, and easily tossed
"away" during pick-ups. Limit the freedom of the mess, rather than of
the children. :)
DS as a 16 yr old: messy room, too busy with various jobs and sports
activities to keep it up. It's conveniently located out of public
view, in a far corner of the basement - he likes it that way: very
private. Prefers that no one enter, not even his parents, though I do
take a peek now and then to keep an eye on things. Does his own
laundry when he needs it, keeps up with emptying the dehumidifier cuz
if he doesn't he gets mold in his room. Does this and that when I ask
him to, especially heavy lifting (he's 5'11" and 180 pounds), and even
occasionally takes out the trash without being asked. I'm ALWAYS
getting comments from other people regarding his helpfulness towards
people other than his family. I have no idea what his housekeeping
standards will be like when he's on his own. It will be up to him, as
it is now.
My 2 cents.
namaste,
cris