Re: [unschoolingbasics] Chores
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/10/2004 10:50:00 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
she went to college out of state she was terrified, because she didn't know
how to do anything. She used to call her mom, crying because she felt so
insecure.
***This sounds to me like yes, she was insecure...but it probably had nothing
to do with knowing how to do laundry! Geez...how hard it that to learn if
you want to know how?? Maybe as a result of going to 'real school' she didn't
know how to figure things out on her own?? Although, "I" went to PS and I don't
think I knew how to do laundry when I went to college either, but I just
asked and someone explained all about separating whites and colors, etc....and I
picked up more along the way, some by trial and error...but hardly something to
freak out about : ) ~~Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
>>She wished that hermom had made her do her own laundry and clean the house. She said that when
she went to college out of state she was terrified, because she didn't know
how to do anything. She used to call her mom, crying because she felt so
insecure.
***This sounds to me like yes, she was insecure...but it probably had nothing
to do with knowing how to do laundry! Geez...how hard it that to learn if
you want to know how?? Maybe as a result of going to 'real school' she didn't
know how to figure things out on her own?? Although, "I" went to PS and I don't
think I knew how to do laundry when I went to college either, but I just
asked and someone explained all about separating whites and colors, etc....and I
picked up more along the way, some by trial and error...but hardly something to
freak out about : ) ~~Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/11/2004 1:28:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
we3deeves@... writes:
Although, "I" went to PS and I don't
think I knew how to do laundry when I went to college either, but I just
asked and someone explained all about separating whites and colors,
etc....and I
picked up more along the way, some by trial and error...but hardly something
to
freak out about <<<
That was my entertainment as a college student. I used to hang out in the
school laundromat. I would sit and watch the freshmen guys who had just learned
"last week" how to do laundry. They'd actually use a measuring cup and
measure the soap *exactly* to the line. They would carefully sort their laundry by
colors into three washers. They'd check the water temperature. They'd remove
each piece from the washer and shake it out before placing it in the dryer.
They'd remove each piece from the dryer and fold it carefully before placing
it back in the basket.
Of course I could always tell the seniors: they would dump the whole load
into one washer, pour the detergent in from the box, keep whatever temperature
setting that it was on, leave for an hour---probably having a beer or two,
come back and toss it all into the dryer, leave for a few more beers, and come
back to throw it all in a duffle bag! <BWG>
Cheap thrills!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
we3deeves@... writes:
Although, "I" went to PS and I don't
think I knew how to do laundry when I went to college either, but I just
asked and someone explained all about separating whites and colors,
etc....and I
picked up more along the way, some by trial and error...but hardly something
to
freak out about <<<
That was my entertainment as a college student. I used to hang out in the
school laundromat. I would sit and watch the freshmen guys who had just learned
"last week" how to do laundry. They'd actually use a measuring cup and
measure the soap *exactly* to the line. They would carefully sort their laundry by
colors into three washers. They'd check the water temperature. They'd remove
each piece from the washer and shake it out before placing it in the dryer.
They'd remove each piece from the dryer and fold it carefully before placing
it back in the basket.
Of course I could always tell the seniors: they would dump the whole load
into one washer, pour the detergent in from the box, keep whatever temperature
setting that it was on, leave for an hour---probably having a beer or two,
come back and toss it all into the dryer, leave for a few more beers, and come
back to throw it all in a duffle bag! <BWG>
Cheap thrills!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stacey Grimm
Obviously chore charts with money and/or other incentives don't work.
Threats don't work. Not pushing them to do chores doesn't work. Doing it all
myself doesn't work. Doing chores with them doesn't work.
How do unschoolers get their kids to do chores? For that matter, how do we
keep our homes clean if we're not one of the high-energy do-it-all-yourself
types?
I can stand a little bit of a mess, but dishes piled up all over the kitchen
and strewn about the house is another story. Not tolerable! It makes for a
depressed mama when I come out in the morning to find the kitchen a complete
junk yard when I want to make breakfast. We, dh and I, have tried setting an
example by cleaning up after ourselves consistently - that doesn't seem to
help either.
My husband can stand far less than I, but he can't do it all himself because
he works long hours and is bushed by the time he's home for the night (yes,
"night" - he works late).
All of the things we've tried have been over years of trying, implementing,
failing. I don't want to be passive-aggressive about it, but that's usually
how I end up when I wind up having to clean the kitchen in the mornings just
so I can sanely make myself some breakfast.
Besides I don't want to live in a pig sty, but I don't have the energy to
make the house clean by myself. Not day, not in a week.
(If there are archives addressing this, please feel free to point me to
them.)
--
~Stacey
<a href="http://www.bobbarr2008.com/">Liberty for America</a>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Threats don't work. Not pushing them to do chores doesn't work. Doing it all
myself doesn't work. Doing chores with them doesn't work.
How do unschoolers get their kids to do chores? For that matter, how do we
keep our homes clean if we're not one of the high-energy do-it-all-yourself
types?
I can stand a little bit of a mess, but dishes piled up all over the kitchen
and strewn about the house is another story. Not tolerable! It makes for a
depressed mama when I come out in the morning to find the kitchen a complete
junk yard when I want to make breakfast. We, dh and I, have tried setting an
example by cleaning up after ourselves consistently - that doesn't seem to
help either.
My husband can stand far less than I, but he can't do it all himself because
he works long hours and is bushed by the time he's home for the night (yes,
"night" - he works late).
All of the things we've tried have been over years of trying, implementing,
failing. I don't want to be passive-aggressive about it, but that's usually
how I end up when I wind up having to clean the kitchen in the mornings just
so I can sanely make myself some breakfast.
Besides I don't want to live in a pig sty, but I don't have the energy to
make the house clean by myself. Not day, not in a week.
(If there are archives addressing this, please feel free to point me to
them.)
--
~Stacey
<a href="http://www.bobbarr2008.com/">Liberty for America</a>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
-----Original Message-----
From: Stacey Grimm <taboulichic@...>
Obviously chore charts with money and/or other incentives don't work.
Threats don't work. Not pushing them to do chores doesn't work. Doing it all
myself doesn't work. Doing chores with them doesn't work.
-=-=-=-=-
Have you tried doing housework with a song in your heart?
Corny, yes. But I'm serious.
Have you done housework because you want to make a clean, safe, pleasant place to live for the ones you adore the most? Have your children seen that attitude for several years?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
How do unschoolers get their kids to do chores? For that matter, how do we
keep our homes clean if we're not one of the high-energy do-it-all-yourself
types?
-=-=-=-=-
Well, I AM one of those " high-energy do-it-all-yourself" types. <G>
And I don't make my children do much of anything. I DO ask, and they are happy to help.
I think that's because I changed the way *I* looked at cleaning. I took the advice from unschooling moms years and years ago and chose to view housecleaning as a gift I give my family. The miraculous result was that MY CHILDREN also see cleaning as a gift they can give to me.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can stand a little bit of a mess, but dishes piled up all over the kitchen
and strewn about the house is another story. Not tolerable! It makes for a
depressed mama when I come out in the morning to find the kitchen a complete
junk yard when I want to make breakfast. We, dh and I, have tried setting an
example by cleaning up after ourselves consistently - that doesn't seem to
help either.
-=-=-=-=-=-
You don't say how old your children are.
But the result of my "cleaning gift" is that I often wake up to a clean kitchen. <g> The boys, who are occasionally up later than I am, will be "elves" and clean the rooms I'm not in.
But it took years and years of MY doing that FOR THEM. But they're just following my lead.
I figure that, if I had continued to do the same as the conventional parents around here, I would have children who were always expecting someone *else* to do things for them.
Are you and your husband always cleaning up after the children too? Or are they responsible for their own messes?
-=-=-=-=-=-
My husband can stand far less than I, but he can't do it all himself because
he works long hours and is bushed by the time he's home for the night (yes,
"night" - he works late).
-=-=-=-=-=-
So are you home?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
All of the things we've tried have been over years of trying, implementing,
failing. I don't want to be passive-aggressive about it, but that's usually
how I end up when I wind up having to clean the kitchen in the mornings just
so I can sanely make myself some breakfast.
-=-=-=-=-==-
It's ALL about attitude. I cannot stress that enough. You apparently hate cleaning---and you'll be passing that attitude on to your children. Don't think you won't!
That's not the baggage I want to pass on to my kids. Remember---one carry-on, not a complete set of Samsonite! <g>
The more clearly *you* can see housekeeping and food and sleep and learning, the better your children's view!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Besides I don't want to live in a pig sty, but I don't have the energy to
make the house clean by myself. Not day, not in a week.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hire a maid. Seriously. If it's that bad, consider what you'd have to do without in order to have someone clean it for you.
A good maid can do it in a few HOURS.
-=-=-=-=-
(If there are archives addressing this, please feel free to point me to
them.)
-=-=-=-=-
Do a search for chores or cleaning. It comes up every two months or so---its a BIGGIE on this list!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Stacey Grimm <taboulichic@...>
Obviously chore charts with money and/or other incentives don't work.
Threats don't work. Not pushing them to do chores doesn't work. Doing it all
myself doesn't work. Doing chores with them doesn't work.
-=-=-=-=-
Have you tried doing housework with a song in your heart?
Corny, yes. But I'm serious.
Have you done housework because you want to make a clean, safe, pleasant place to live for the ones you adore the most? Have your children seen that attitude for several years?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
How do unschoolers get their kids to do chores? For that matter, how do we
keep our homes clean if we're not one of the high-energy do-it-all-yourself
types?
-=-=-=-=-
Well, I AM one of those " high-energy do-it-all-yourself" types. <G>
And I don't make my children do much of anything. I DO ask, and they are happy to help.
I think that's because I changed the way *I* looked at cleaning. I took the advice from unschooling moms years and years ago and chose to view housecleaning as a gift I give my family. The miraculous result was that MY CHILDREN also see cleaning as a gift they can give to me.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can stand a little bit of a mess, but dishes piled up all over the kitchen
and strewn about the house is another story. Not tolerable! It makes for a
depressed mama when I come out in the morning to find the kitchen a complete
junk yard when I want to make breakfast. We, dh and I, have tried setting an
example by cleaning up after ourselves consistently - that doesn't seem to
help either.
-=-=-=-=-=-
You don't say how old your children are.
But the result of my "cleaning gift" is that I often wake up to a clean kitchen. <g> The boys, who are occasionally up later than I am, will be "elves" and clean the rooms I'm not in.
But it took years and years of MY doing that FOR THEM. But they're just following my lead.
I figure that, if I had continued to do the same as the conventional parents around here, I would have children who were always expecting someone *else* to do things for them.
Are you and your husband always cleaning up after the children too? Or are they responsible for their own messes?
-=-=-=-=-=-
My husband can stand far less than I, but he can't do it all himself because
he works long hours and is bushed by the time he's home for the night (yes,
"night" - he works late).
-=-=-=-=-=-
So are you home?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
All of the things we've tried have been over years of trying, implementing,
failing. I don't want to be passive-aggressive about it, but that's usually
how I end up when I wind up having to clean the kitchen in the mornings just
so I can sanely make myself some breakfast.
-=-=-=-=-==-
It's ALL about attitude. I cannot stress that enough. You apparently hate cleaning---and you'll be passing that attitude on to your children. Don't think you won't!
That's not the baggage I want to pass on to my kids. Remember---one carry-on, not a complete set of Samsonite! <g>
The more clearly *you* can see housekeeping and food and sleep and learning, the better your children's view!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Besides I don't want to live in a pig sty, but I don't have the energy to
make the house clean by myself. Not day, not in a week.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hire a maid. Seriously. If it's that bad, consider what you'd have to do without in order to have someone clean it for you.
A good maid can do it in a few HOURS.
-=-=-=-=-
(If there are archives addressing this, please feel free to point me to
them.)
-=-=-=-=-
Do a search for chores or cleaning. It comes up every two months or so---its a BIGGIE on this list!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
I know one thing that really helps me is to focus on what they do instead of
what they are not doing that you want them to. I am grateful when Malila
(11) plays with the baby so I can put away groceries or when Easy (5) helps
do dishes or when Zola (1) helps with laundry. Sometime when I come into the
computer room in the morning after Malila has been up all night I shake my
head at the mess. She sometimes leaves everything behind, a juice cup and
something from her snacks. But I am grateful that we have juice and snacks.
I am grateful that she isn't afraid of me and scared to leave a mess for
fear of bring harmed. I am happy she is alive so that I can pick up after
her. It is an act of service. I view acts of service as a way to show love.
what they are not doing that you want them to. I am grateful when Malila
(11) plays with the baby so I can put away groceries or when Easy (5) helps
do dishes or when Zola (1) helps with laundry. Sometime when I come into the
computer room in the morning after Malila has been up all night I shake my
head at the mess. She sometimes leaves everything behind, a juice cup and
something from her snacks. But I am grateful that we have juice and snacks.
I am grateful that she isn't afraid of me and scared to leave a mess for
fear of bring harmed. I am happy she is alive so that I can pick up after
her. It is an act of service. I view acts of service as a way to show love.
On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 3:27 AM, Stacey Grimm <taboulichic@...> wrote:
> Obviously chore charts with money and/or other incentives don't work.
> Threats don't work. Not pushing them to do chores doesn't work. Doing it
> all
> myself doesn't work. Doing chores with them doesn't work.
>
***In my life before I found the radical part of unschooling I tried these
things. It was all I knew, all I saw. It never worked for us either. Luckily
I didn't do too much of this.
Although doing chores together because we enjoyed it has always worked.***
>
>
> How do unschoolers get their kids to do chores?
>
***It helps to not try to get your kids to do anything. To let go of
expectations.***
> For that matter, how do we
> keep our homes clean if we're not one of the high-energy do-it-all-yourself
> types?
>
***I am high-energy but I had a lot of baggage about cleaning to let go of,
a lot. Also having 3 kids and 3000+ sq feet. Makes being the only one that
cleans unrealistic. ***
>
>
> I can stand a little bit of a mess, but dishes piled up all over the
> kitchen
> and strewn about the house is another story. Not tolerable! It makes for a
> depressed mama when I come out in the morning to find the kitchen a
> complete
> junk yard when I want to make breakfast. We, dh and I, have tried setting
> an
> example by cleaning up after ourselves consistently - that doesn't seem to
> help either.
>
***Cleaning up after yourself is a great way to live. One of this things
that really works for me is to examine why I felt so crappy when I saw mess
(in the kitchen or otherwise). For me it stemmed from the baggage I picked
up as a kid. I was rude and disrespectful if I left a mess. It was hard (but
not impossible) to let go of seeing my dh and kids in this way. It doesn't
help anyone to feel good. Instead of rules we try to come to space where
everyone's needs are considered and met. ***
>
>
> My husband can stand far less than I, but he can't do it all himself
> because
> he works long hours and is bushed by the time he's home for the night (yes,
> "night" - he works late).
>
***Do you and he see this as *YOUR* issues, not your kids?***
>
>
> All of the things we've tried have been over years of trying, implementing,
> failing. I don't want to be passive-aggressive about it, but that's usually
> how I end up when I wind up having to clean the kitchen in the mornings
> just
> so I can sanely make myself some breakfast.
>
***I find that I can only control myself. I can choose not to be
passive-aggressive or hurtful about your needs not being met. It is hard at
first. But it gets easier in time. I realized that my kids need to know I am
hurt but I don't need to hurt them to get them to do what I need.***
>
>
> Besides I don't want to live in a pig sty, but I don't have the energy to
> make the house clean by myself. Not day, not in a week.
>
***I generally feel better when my house is clean and organized. At least to
some extent. I want to be able to move freely and have space to do projects.
I want us to have our things availible to us when we want them. I want our
things to be safe and out of the way of harm (ie not on the floor). My home
is no showcase by any means but it generally works for us. I take it one
space at a time. I find that I need a calm space of my own so I generally
work on my bedroom first and use my efforts to keep that up a priority. That
way if I feel stressed in the common areas I have a retreat. After that I
need the kitchen space clean. We all like to eat, lol. Then I find the
TV/video game room and/or the playroom need the most attention. I clean
these rooms because I want my kids to have a clean pallette to create in.
I am actually still trying to figure out this part as we have recently moved
and I am not where I want to be organizationally. ***
>
> Faith
>
> -
>
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 24, 2008, at 3:27 AM, Stacey Grimm wrote:
we ask for help as we would ask a friend -- fully appreciating that
they might have something more important to do (whether we agree that
it's more important or not!) -- then we become people they like to help.
If we were to look at ourselves through our kids eyes as we're
trying to get them to help, we wouldn't want to help us either!
The standards we keep the house are our own, not something to be
imposed on others. What if someone asked you to arrange flowers. She
had one image in mind and you had something totally different. Then
when she saw yours she blew up and told you to redo it. Would you
feel like doing better, rising up to meet her standards? Or would you
feel like "Screw this. I gave you my time. If you don't like it, you
should do it yourself."
That's exactly what kids get. And their perfectly reasonable
reactions to slaving under someone else's standards are reacted to as
though they're ungrateful brats.
There are a fair number of answers (16 pages in fact ;-) to standard
questions about chores at:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
down the right hand side.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> How do unschoolers get their kids to do chores?We don't. But when we accept full responsibility for the chores and
we ask for help as we would ask a friend -- fully appreciating that
they might have something more important to do (whether we agree that
it's more important or not!) -- then we become people they like to help.
If we were to look at ourselves through our kids eyes as we're
trying to get them to help, we wouldn't want to help us either!
The standards we keep the house are our own, not something to be
imposed on others. What if someone asked you to arrange flowers. She
had one image in mind and you had something totally different. Then
when she saw yours she blew up and told you to redo it. Would you
feel like doing better, rising up to meet her standards? Or would you
feel like "Screw this. I gave you my time. If you don't like it, you
should do it yourself."
That's exactly what kids get. And their perfectly reasonable
reactions to slaving under someone else's standards are reacted to as
though they're ungrateful brats.
There are a fair number of answers (16 pages in fact ;-) to standard
questions about chores at:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
down the right hand side.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Gray
And can i add that often unschooled children will do chores when they
see that it's necessary? As Joyce mentioned, if a parent is being
nitpicky about things that really are not that important, then they
don't see a need outside of that of the parent to have it done their
way.
We recently had a mouse invasion. Serious mouse invasion, I think
we've caught seven or eight...and our house isn't really cluttered.
It's not dirty or messy or anything, but they really saw a need to
clean out cabinets and shelves and repackage our dry goods into
airtight storage. It is amazing HOW CLEAN our garage is...Josh really
worked hard to get rid of potential mouse buffet or nesting. Their
closets are not quite martha stewart, but i think i'd puke if they
were lol!
And I really could not do it (second necessary) I'm pregnant and
supposedly on bedrest. I could NOT pull stuff out and clean and
organize. I would do one pot, and be exhausted and crampy and have to
lay down for an hour.
So it really does happen...when we can compromise on standards (as
Joyce said, if the standards are our own, what is the motivation for
them?) and not see chores as some domestic slavery ourselves, we can
enjoy the time spent with our kids, and they enjoy it in return. Lots
of times I'm the one doing dishes while the kids sit and keep me
company. I like that, and so do they. We love cranking up the music
when we know we have company over. WHich is often.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
see that it's necessary? As Joyce mentioned, if a parent is being
nitpicky about things that really are not that important, then they
don't see a need outside of that of the parent to have it done their
way.
We recently had a mouse invasion. Serious mouse invasion, I think
we've caught seven or eight...and our house isn't really cluttered.
It's not dirty or messy or anything, but they really saw a need to
clean out cabinets and shelves and repackage our dry goods into
airtight storage. It is amazing HOW CLEAN our garage is...Josh really
worked hard to get rid of potential mouse buffet or nesting. Their
closets are not quite martha stewart, but i think i'd puke if they
were lol!
And I really could not do it (second necessary) I'm pregnant and
supposedly on bedrest. I could NOT pull stuff out and clean and
organize. I would do one pot, and be exhausted and crampy and have to
lay down for an hour.
So it really does happen...when we can compromise on standards (as
Joyce said, if the standards are our own, what is the motivation for
them?) and not see chores as some domestic slavery ourselves, we can
enjoy the time spent with our kids, and they enjoy it in return. Lots
of times I'm the one doing dishes while the kids sit and keep me
company. I like that, and so do they. We love cranking up the music
when we know we have company over. WHich is often.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
On Oct 24, 2008, at 2:26 PM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
>
> On Oct 24, 2008, at 3:27 AM, Stacey Grimm wrote:
>
> > How do unschoolers get their kids to do chores?
>
> We don't. But when we accept full responsibility for the chores and
> we ask for help as we would ask a friend -- fully appreciating that
> they might have something more important to do (whether we agree that
> it's more important or not!) -- then we become people they like to
> help.
>
> If we were to look at ourselves through our kids eyes as we're
> trying to get them to help, we wouldn't want to help us either!
>
> The standards we keep the house are our own, not something to be
> imposed on others. What if someone asked you to arrange flowers. She
> had one image in mind and you had something totally different. Then
> when she saw yours she blew up and told you to redo it. Would you
> feel like doing better, rising up to meet her standards? Or would you
> feel like "Screw this. I gave you my time. If you don't like it, you
> should do it yourself."
>
> That's exactly what kids get. And their perfectly reasonable
> reactions to slaving under someone else's standards are reacted to as
> though they're ungrateful brats.
>
> There are a fair number of answers (16 pages in fact ;-) to standard
> questions about chores at:
>
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
>
> down the right hand side.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
landvchapman
~~~Obviously chore charts with money and/or other incentives don't
work.
Threats don't work. Not pushing them to do chores doesn't work.
Doing it all
myself doesn't work. Doing chores with them doesn't work.~~~
What exactly do you mean when you use the words "don't/doesn't
work". "Chore charts with money and/or other incentives don't
work" to accomplish what?
Is the goal to get household tasks done?
Is it to get the kids to share in the household tasks?
Is it to get the kids to see the value in having a tidy space/house?
Is it to eliminate some of your workload by sharing the load with
someone else?
Is it to help the kids understand that when you live with other
people you have a responsibility to others?
Is it to make the kids realize that they aren't going to get a free
ride from you. You aren't raising lazy, no good, kids with
entitlement issues?
Is it to make you happier because you don't function as well in
disorder?
You don't really have to answer here. Although if you did, someone
might be able to give you ways that those things you listed might
work, depending on what you are trying to accomplish. The answer
might be one or a combination of the things I listed. Or it might be
something completely different. I know I had to really reevaluate
what I was trying to accomplish. Not just with chores, but with any
demand or rule or restriction I might have had. The hardest thing to
swallow is the idea that I might have been making those demands or
rules or restrictions for no other real reason than that they made
things more convenient for me.
~~~How do unschoolers get their kids to do chores? For that matter,
how do we
keep our homes clean if we're not one of the high-energy do-it-all-
yourself types?~~~
I think the best way to get kids to help out around the house is to
not expect them to, ever. Never make it a battle. It would be best
if it were a non issue from the very day they were born. Just keep
cleaning up.
But most people start out in a much more mainstream place. So then,
if they find their way to unschooling, they have to undo the damage
that has already been done.
I can't really answer your question about how to keep the house clean
if you aren't one of the high energy do it yourself types. When I
was threatening/bribing/punishing to get my kids to do chores it had
much less to do with keeping the house clean than it did with my fear
that they were going to grow up and see housework in the same way I
did. I'm working to change my perception of housework, so that I can
have a clean house without resenting the work I have to do to have
it. If you are really just looking to have a clean house but can't
or don't want to do it yourself, hire someone to do it or change how
you feel about having a clean house. Own it as being your issue.
Don't make it an issue for your children too.
~~~I can stand a little bit of a mess, but dishes piled up all over
the kitchen
and strewn about the house is another story. Not tolerable! It makes
for a depressed mama when I come out in the morning to find the
kitchen a complete junk yard when I want to make breakfast. We, dh
and I, have tried setting an example by cleaning up after ourselves
consistently - that doesn't seem to help either.~~~
Not tolerable for who? It must not be bothering them if they are
leaving it that way. This is your issue. There are all kinds of
things that would "work" to get your kids to clean up the kitchen or
whatever. But they aren't going to support an unschooling
lifestyle. They aren't going to foster joy, love, and respect.
~~~My husband can stand far less than I, but he can't do it all
himself because he works long hours and is bushed by the time he's
home for the night (yes, "night" - he works late).~~~
Could your husband do a quick clean up of the kitchen before he goes
to bed if he is up late? Do you go to bed before your kids and then
they eat and make a mess, leaving it for you in the morning? Or are
is this accumulating over the day and you are wanting/expecting your
kids to clean it all up?
~~~All of the things we've tried have been over years of trying,
implementing, failing.
Trying, implementing, failing to do what?~~~
~~~I don't want to be passive-aggressive about it, but that's usually
how I end up when I wind up having to clean the kitchen in the
mornings just so I can sanely make myself some breakfast.~~~
I understand how you feel. I struggle with not feeling resentful
that my family can't just pick up their stuff. If everyone would
just put their plate in the dishwasher, or their paper in the garbage
every thing would be cool, I tell myself and on a bad day, them. It
doesn't help me to have the kind of relationship that I want with my
kids though. I have to actively work to let go of those feelings.
~~~Besides I don't want to live in a pig sty, but I don't have the
energy to make the house clean by myself. Not day, not n a week.~~~
These are your issues. Not your kids. They aren't bothered by the
pigsty and it seems, they are choosing to use their energy on other
things. Probably fun things. They probably don't see cleaning up as
fun. It doesn't seem like something you enjoy either. Maybe if you
changed your view of housework they would change theirs? That is
what is working for me to have the kind of relationship I am striving
for with my children, and once in a while I get a clean house out of
it too.
~Lynda
work.
Threats don't work. Not pushing them to do chores doesn't work.
Doing it all
myself doesn't work. Doing chores with them doesn't work.~~~
What exactly do you mean when you use the words "don't/doesn't
work". "Chore charts with money and/or other incentives don't
work" to accomplish what?
Is the goal to get household tasks done?
Is it to get the kids to share in the household tasks?
Is it to get the kids to see the value in having a tidy space/house?
Is it to eliminate some of your workload by sharing the load with
someone else?
Is it to help the kids understand that when you live with other
people you have a responsibility to others?
Is it to make the kids realize that they aren't going to get a free
ride from you. You aren't raising lazy, no good, kids with
entitlement issues?
Is it to make you happier because you don't function as well in
disorder?
You don't really have to answer here. Although if you did, someone
might be able to give you ways that those things you listed might
work, depending on what you are trying to accomplish. The answer
might be one or a combination of the things I listed. Or it might be
something completely different. I know I had to really reevaluate
what I was trying to accomplish. Not just with chores, but with any
demand or rule or restriction I might have had. The hardest thing to
swallow is the idea that I might have been making those demands or
rules or restrictions for no other real reason than that they made
things more convenient for me.
~~~How do unschoolers get their kids to do chores? For that matter,
how do we
keep our homes clean if we're not one of the high-energy do-it-all-
yourself types?~~~
I think the best way to get kids to help out around the house is to
not expect them to, ever. Never make it a battle. It would be best
if it were a non issue from the very day they were born. Just keep
cleaning up.
But most people start out in a much more mainstream place. So then,
if they find their way to unschooling, they have to undo the damage
that has already been done.
I can't really answer your question about how to keep the house clean
if you aren't one of the high energy do it yourself types. When I
was threatening/bribing/punishing to get my kids to do chores it had
much less to do with keeping the house clean than it did with my fear
that they were going to grow up and see housework in the same way I
did. I'm working to change my perception of housework, so that I can
have a clean house without resenting the work I have to do to have
it. If you are really just looking to have a clean house but can't
or don't want to do it yourself, hire someone to do it or change how
you feel about having a clean house. Own it as being your issue.
Don't make it an issue for your children too.
~~~I can stand a little bit of a mess, but dishes piled up all over
the kitchen
and strewn about the house is another story. Not tolerable! It makes
for a depressed mama when I come out in the morning to find the
kitchen a complete junk yard when I want to make breakfast. We, dh
and I, have tried setting an example by cleaning up after ourselves
consistently - that doesn't seem to help either.~~~
Not tolerable for who? It must not be bothering them if they are
leaving it that way. This is your issue. There are all kinds of
things that would "work" to get your kids to clean up the kitchen or
whatever. But they aren't going to support an unschooling
lifestyle. They aren't going to foster joy, love, and respect.
~~~My husband can stand far less than I, but he can't do it all
himself because he works long hours and is bushed by the time he's
home for the night (yes, "night" - he works late).~~~
Could your husband do a quick clean up of the kitchen before he goes
to bed if he is up late? Do you go to bed before your kids and then
they eat and make a mess, leaving it for you in the morning? Or are
is this accumulating over the day and you are wanting/expecting your
kids to clean it all up?
~~~All of the things we've tried have been over years of trying,
implementing, failing.
Trying, implementing, failing to do what?~~~
~~~I don't want to be passive-aggressive about it, but that's usually
how I end up when I wind up having to clean the kitchen in the
mornings just so I can sanely make myself some breakfast.~~~
I understand how you feel. I struggle with not feeling resentful
that my family can't just pick up their stuff. If everyone would
just put their plate in the dishwasher, or their paper in the garbage
every thing would be cool, I tell myself and on a bad day, them. It
doesn't help me to have the kind of relationship that I want with my
kids though. I have to actively work to let go of those feelings.
~~~Besides I don't want to live in a pig sty, but I don't have the
energy to make the house clean by myself. Not day, not n a week.~~~
These are your issues. Not your kids. They aren't bothered by the
pigsty and it seems, they are choosing to use their energy on other
things. Probably fun things. They probably don't see cleaning up as
fun. It doesn't seem like something you enjoy either. Maybe if you
changed your view of housework they would change theirs? That is
what is working for me to have the kind of relationship I am striving
for with my children, and once in a while I get a clean house out of
it too.
~Lynda
Stacey Grimm
On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 8:06 PM, landvchapman <landvchapman@...> wrote:
it's mostly: to get household tasks done, eliminate some of my
workload by sharing the load with someone else, and to help the kids
understand that when you live with other people you have a
responsibility to others.
Someone else asked in a roundabout way what ages my kids are. They're
13 yrs, 12 yrs and 2 mos. I don't expect the 2 month old to do
anything except be cute and make more work (diapers, laundry).
husband. But dh gets a little "nutso" in a messy-house situation, and
as I mentioned before he hasn't the time to make it the way he wants
it.
Personally, I can tolerate more of a mess than he, but I have issues
with the kitchen and bathroom being a mess. The trouble is, I am
clinically depressed (Major Depression, diagnosed & treated,
hereditary), and that shows up mostly in the physical for me. I just
don't have the energy and it's not about changing my attitude. I can
change my attitude until I'm blue in the face but that doesn't change
the fact that my body is just not on board with doing a lot of things
- and I already do a lot for someone with my limitations. I have had
to find coping mechanisms that really work for me, those things are
gardening, bird-watching, cooking/baking, and knitting & crocheting.
And it's not as though I don't set about doing chores myself. I
voluntarily go about laundry day(s), daily washing of diapers, picking
up after the kids and dh, mending clothes and costumes, knitting or
crocheting wearable items for the family, making nice meals for the
family, and so on rather joyfully, oftentimes singing while I do them.
The kids see this. Do they join in or follow along? No.
OTOH, my dd does clean her own room periodically of her own volition,
and she cares for her snake in a way that makes me think she'll be an
excellent, doting mother one day if she chooses. And so I know she's
picking something good up from me.
My older ds, however, (and he's 12), will leave things to go until,
for example, his room was so messy the cats had been using it as a
litter box. He finally cleaned his room to get rid of the smell, only
the smell had set in he let it go so long. He has to be reminded - and
I hate that I feel compelled to do this - to take a shower, for
another example. I love him to pieces, but i don't want to be
physically near him if his body odor is repulsive. Hygiene is another
important topic to me, but that's probably another email for another
time.
damaging thing or as a forceful thing or as a battle or something by
which the kids and I alienate ourselves one from the other. Would like
to find an amenable solution!
But we can't afford one. :-( One of our cars just blew its head
gaskets and it's not a repair we can afford, so we're down to one car
and scrimping so as to save up for another second/family car. We're
getting by in dh's economy commuting car for the next few months. Four
adult sized people and a baby in a Mazda3. *blinkblink* ...not that a
maid is an expense we can reasonably justify anyway. DH keeps the
books, not me (thankgod!).
dishes, clothes and shoes laying about. I realize that I was
originally talking about the common areas, but the analogy does apply
to a degree.
that it did work. His putting on TMBG and doing various household
chores with the kids did seem effective. This was at night after I'd
gone to bed. I'm a morning person, the rest of the household members
are night owls. He has since gotten behind with the financial end of
keeping our house running and so has gone back to that to catch up.
Meanwhile, I still go to bed around 9 with the baby, and the next
morning I find dirty dishes left around the living room and kitchen.
I cook and clean up after myself while I'm cooking. They cook for
themselves and leave the mess to sit. I'm just not seeing the setting
an example and showing respect working. I feel taken advantage of,
like they know if they make a mess I'm going to clean it up.
physical manifestation, and attitude changes. Also addressed above the
chores I do happily.
~Stacey
<a href="http://www.bobbarr2008.com/">Liberty for America</a>
>All of the above, really. But if I wanted to be very specific I'd say
> ~~~Obviously chore charts with money and/or other incentives don't
>
> Threats don't work. Not pushing them to do chores doesn't work.
> Doing it all
> myself doesn't work. Doing chores with them doesn't work.~~~
>
> What exactly do you mean when you use the words "don't/doesn't
> work". "Chore charts with money and/or other incentives don't
> work" to accomplish what?
>
> Is the goal to get household tasks done?
> Is it to get the kids to share in the household tasks?
> Is it to get the kids to see the value in having a tidy space/house?
> Is it to eliminate some of your workload by sharing the load with
> someone else?
> Is it to help the kids understand that when you live with other
> people you have a responsibility to others?
> Is it to make the kids realize that they aren't going to get a free
> ride from you. You aren't raising lazy, no good, kids with
> entitlement issues?
> Is it to make you happier because you don't function as well in
> disorder?
it's mostly: to get household tasks done, eliminate some of my
workload by sharing the load with someone else, and to help the kids
understand that when you live with other people you have a
responsibility to others.
Someone else asked in a roundabout way what ages my kids are. They're
13 yrs, 12 yrs and 2 mos. I don't expect the 2 month old to do
anything except be cute and make more work (diapers, laundry).
> The hardest thing toThere is, of course, an element of that too for me and moreso for my
> swallow is the idea that I might have been making those demands or
> rules or restrictions for no other real reason than that they made
> things more convenient for me.
husband. But dh gets a little "nutso" in a messy-house situation, and
as I mentioned before he hasn't the time to make it the way he wants
it.
Personally, I can tolerate more of a mess than he, but I have issues
with the kitchen and bathroom being a mess. The trouble is, I am
clinically depressed (Major Depression, diagnosed & treated,
hereditary), and that shows up mostly in the physical for me. I just
don't have the energy and it's not about changing my attitude. I can
change my attitude until I'm blue in the face but that doesn't change
the fact that my body is just not on board with doing a lot of things
- and I already do a lot for someone with my limitations. I have had
to find coping mechanisms that really work for me, those things are
gardening, bird-watching, cooking/baking, and knitting & crocheting.
And it's not as though I don't set about doing chores myself. I
voluntarily go about laundry day(s), daily washing of diapers, picking
up after the kids and dh, mending clothes and costumes, knitting or
crocheting wearable items for the family, making nice meals for the
family, and so on rather joyfully, oftentimes singing while I do them.
The kids see this. Do they join in or follow along? No.
OTOH, my dd does clean her own room periodically of her own volition,
and she cares for her snake in a way that makes me think she'll be an
excellent, doting mother one day if she chooses. And so I know she's
picking something good up from me.
My older ds, however, (and he's 12), will leave things to go until,
for example, his room was so messy the cats had been using it as a
litter box. He finally cleaned his room to get rid of the smell, only
the smell had set in he let it go so long. He has to be reminded - and
I hate that I feel compelled to do this - to take a shower, for
another example. I love him to pieces, but i don't want to be
physically near him if his body odor is repulsive. Hygiene is another
important topic to me, but that's probably another email for another
time.
> I think the best way to get kids to help out around the house is to...in a perfect world...
> not expect them to, ever. Never make it a battle. It would be best
> if it were a non issue from the very day they were born. Just keep
> cleaning up.
> But…most people start out in a much more mainstream place. So then,Which is why I'm asking. I don't really want to let this go as a
> if they find their way to unschooling, they have to undo the damage
> that has already been done.
damaging thing or as a forceful thing or as a battle or something by
which the kids and I alienate ourselves one from the other. Would like
to find an amenable solution!
> it. If you are really just looking to have a clean house but can'tSomeone else also suggested I might hire a maid. That's a great idea!
> or don't want to do it yourself, hire someone to do it or change how
> you feel about having a clean house. Own it as being your issue.
> Don't make it an issue for your children too.
But we can't afford one. :-( One of our cars just blew its head
gaskets and it's not a repair we can afford, so we're down to one car
and scrimping so as to save up for another second/family car. We're
getting by in dh's economy commuting car for the next few months. Four
adult sized people and a baby in a Mazda3. *blinkblink* ...not that a
maid is an expense we can reasonably justify anyway. DH keeps the
books, not me (thankgod!).
> Not tolerable for who? It must not be bothering them if they areWell, me, of course. I know full well this is my issue.
> leaving it that way. This is your issue. There are all kinds ofHmm... But y'know, I don't go into their rooms and leave my dirty
> things that would "work" to get your kids to clean up the kitchen or
> whatever. But they aren't going to support an unschooling
> lifestyle. They aren't going to foster joy, love, and respect.
dishes, clothes and shoes laying about. I realize that I was
originally talking about the common areas, but the analogy does apply
to a degree.
> Could your husband do a quick clean up of the kitchen before he goesDH had been doing chores with them for a short while and he reported
> to bed if he is up late? Do you go to bed before your kids and then
> they eat and make a mess, leaving it for you in the morning? Or are
> is this accumulating over the day and you are wanting/expecting your
> kids to clean it all up?
that it did work. His putting on TMBG and doing various household
chores with the kids did seem effective. This was at night after I'd
gone to bed. I'm a morning person, the rest of the household members
are night owls. He has since gotten behind with the financial end of
keeping our house running and so has gone back to that to catch up.
Meanwhile, I still go to bed around 9 with the baby, and the next
morning I find dirty dishes left around the living room and kitchen.
I cook and clean up after myself while I'm cooking. They cook for
themselves and leave the mess to sit. I'm just not seeing the setting
an example and showing respect working. I feel taken advantage of,
like they know if they make a mess I'm going to clean it up.
> fun. It doesn't seem like something you enjoy either. Maybe if youWhich view is that? I addressed this above re: depression, its
> changed your view of housework they would change theirs? That is
physical manifestation, and attitude changes. Also addressed above the
chores I do happily.
> what is working for me to have the kind of relationship I am strivingI'd like that (all of it! :-) too.
> for with my children, and once in a while I get a clean house out of
> it too.
>--
> ~Lynda
~Stacey
<a href="http://www.bobbarr2008.com/">Liberty for America</a>
Tracee
>I'm going to answer, since we've had a pretty hard week, made so by my
> Is the goal to get household tasks done?
> Is it to get the kids to share in the household tasks?
> Is it to get the kids to see the value in having a tidy space/house?
> Is it to eliminate some of your workload by sharing the load with
> someone else?
> Is it to help the kids understand that when you live with other
> people you have a responsibility to others?
> Is it to make the kids realize that they aren't going to get a free
> ride from you. You aren't raising lazy, no good, kids with
> entitlement issues?
> Is it to make you happier because you don't function as well in
> disorder?
>
> You don't really have to answer here. Although if you did, someone
> might be able to give you ways that those things you listed might
> work, depending on what you are trying to accomplish.
insistence on getting help cleaning the house. Then I'm going to
paste my blog post for today here, in hopes of getting further help!
I do want the kids to see the value in having a tidy space, simply
because we all are losing things all the time! I think if it were
kept up, and we had particular homes for all of our stuff, it would be
easier to live. And yes, to make me happier because I don't function
well in disorder. Here is the blog post I just made about it:
We had our worst day yesterday since we jumped into radical
unschooling. I've been reading about Chores on a radical unschooling
list serve. From that, I see that a mistake I might have made
jumping into this was verbally "lifting all controls." My kids are
very confused right now. They hear me saying that they are free to
say no, but they see me struggling with it, and basically not really
meaning it yet. It is an unschooling philosophy, IF I am
understanding it correctly, that the NEED for a neat and tidy or clean
house is the issue of the person that has that need. LOL I keep asking
myself, what kid would want to clean up all these overwhelming piles
of toys, dishes, etc., if I can't even get up the willpower to do it?
It doesn't keep me from falling into my familiar victim role of "i
can't do it all by myself!" I even had a small epiphany a week or so
ago about how I really do feel awesome when I have a clean house, and
so it would be worth it for me to just get over it and get it done.
Everything becomes very black and white to me when I am in a
victim/panic/really-need-it-my-way-now-mode, so I officially told the
kids about 3 days ago, that we are not radically unschooling with
chores anymore. LOL For two days we have been sorting through
overturned toy boxes, with trash bags in the boys bedrooms, etc. Oh,
by the way, their rooms have been that way since we moved in! I
didn't want to unpack everything, because I wanted the house to keep
that brand new clean feeling to it! Haha! So of course, having all
those boxes hidden in their closets made it all the more fulfilling
for them to dump them!! Piles of disorganized chaos fill me with an
overwhelming panicky feeling that I can't even describe. Anway. I
cleaned my room first, still trying to keep with the "model the
behavior" mantra I have going on. In between errands and gymnastics,
while we were home, we turned on music and worked together and it
ended up being a fun time. Before I reinstated the Chore Patrol
(haha!), I was an angry, yelling, giving up on unschooling Mama, all
to end up with a bunch of dancing happy kids that are helping me
clean. What I'm trying to remember to do, to keep in my head, is How
can I skip the whole yelling, screaming and demanding part of things?
And a bit more, off the top of my head. I have Naomi Aldort's book,
and after my whole fiasco, I took it out to read it and could have
just banged my head against a wall, I was so upset that the key thing
that may have helped me, I FORGOT to do. (the whole taking a moment
to pause and just thinking through the yelling, etc., instead of
actually doing it! argh!) In talking with friends, I have been
reminded that I tend to let things that bother me go on way past the
point of upset, and if I could catch it sooner, I could deal with it
internally and not explode on everyone else. Any pointers on what I
can do to remind me to do the pause? Thank goodness my children are
incredibly forgiving and move on easily! Thanks!
~Tracee
Pamela Sorooshian
Stacey --
PLEASE give this a try. Find someone to do some of the work around the
house for you and your kids. When the house is already neater and more
orderly, you'll find that the kids will help more with keeping it that
way and you won't be as tense about it and your husband will be
happier. I bet you can find $40 a week to pay someone to come in and
clean up for a few hours a week and it will make a HUGE difference to
you.
Also, the hygiene thing - it is SUPER common for kids to not want to
shower at your son's age. I don't know why, but it is just very very
common. Try to relax about it. Be honest with him about the smell -
if there really IS smell, do him the favor of telling him and giving
him ideas of how to deal with it. Give him some baby wipes to use
under his arms. maybe. But if there is no smell, just let it go. It
WILL pass. He will most like move into a phase in which he will spend
LOTS of time in the shower - lots and lots! <G> Don't bug him about
that, either, when the time comes!
-pam
PLEASE give this a try. Find someone to do some of the work around the
house for you and your kids. When the house is already neater and more
orderly, you'll find that the kids will help more with keeping it that
way and you won't be as tense about it and your husband will be
happier. I bet you can find $40 a week to pay someone to come in and
clean up for a few hours a week and it will make a HUGE difference to
you.
Also, the hygiene thing - it is SUPER common for kids to not want to
shower at your son's age. I don't know why, but it is just very very
common. Try to relax about it. Be honest with him about the smell -
if there really IS smell, do him the favor of telling him and giving
him ideas of how to deal with it. Give him some baby wipes to use
under his arms. maybe. But if there is no smell, just let it go. It
WILL pass. He will most like move into a phase in which he will spend
LOTS of time in the shower - lots and lots! <G> Don't bug him about
that, either, when the time comes!
-pam
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 28, 2008, at 6:12 AM, Tracee wrote:
approachable" - he does this even for me sometimes, when the kitchen
gets overwhelming. He just goes in and does some of the work. He
doesn't seem to have the need to totally finish what he started, to
end up with a sparkling clean kitchen with the sink washed and
counters and floor cleaned. When "I" do the dishes, I end up cleaning
the stove. He doesn't even clean the sink or wipe off the counters.
Because he doesn't seem to see the huge job that needs doing, but just
notices that we're short of clean dishes, he can go in and do a bunch
of dishes. When he does that, it makes the job look less overwhelming
to me and I go in and do the rest.
So - maybe do that for the kids. Do the first half of a job and ask
them for help to finish it up.
-pam
> I keep askingRIGHT. It IS overwhelming. So - my husband is really good at "make it
> myself, what kid would want to clean up all these overwhelming piles
> of toys, dishes, etc., if I can't even get up the willpower to do it?
approachable" - he does this even for me sometimes, when the kitchen
gets overwhelming. He just goes in and does some of the work. He
doesn't seem to have the need to totally finish what he started, to
end up with a sparkling clean kitchen with the sink washed and
counters and floor cleaned. When "I" do the dishes, I end up cleaning
the stove. He doesn't even clean the sink or wipe off the counters.
Because he doesn't seem to see the huge job that needs doing, but just
notices that we're short of clean dishes, he can go in and do a bunch
of dishes. When he does that, it makes the job look less overwhelming
to me and I go in and do the rest.
So - maybe do that for the kids. Do the first half of a job and ask
them for help to finish it up.
-pam
Faith Void
I have found that if I ask for them to help it needs to be a small thing. I
break things up into 15 minute quick jobs. I just make a list of what I
think needs to be done and then ask them if they will help with some.
Saturday I was feeling crappy and the house was a mess. We all sat down I
talked about feeling really grumpy and really needing the house to be clean.
We all wrote a list of what we wanted to be finished to have a clean house.
The kids and dh and I all picked jobs and set a timer. We worked for 15
minutes and then took a small break 5-10 minute. Then we picked another
task. We did this for a couple hours. Ds 5 wandered away after a couple jobs
and dd 11 lasted over a hour. And they both played with the baby so I could
be more productive. dh and finished everything else. This worked for them
because they didn't feel overwhelmed and had options. They were free to stop
if they wanted to. DS cleaned (extra cleaned as he says) the windows...he
used a full bottle of vinegar :-) And that job wasn't even on the list! It
also works for me, I feel like everyone is taking part and I feel less
overwhelmed. DD is up most nights and will occasional do things if I ask. I
find that when I make lists people help me.
Faith
break things up into 15 minute quick jobs. I just make a list of what I
think needs to be done and then ask them if they will help with some.
Saturday I was feeling crappy and the house was a mess. We all sat down I
talked about feeling really grumpy and really needing the house to be clean.
We all wrote a list of what we wanted to be finished to have a clean house.
The kids and dh and I all picked jobs and set a timer. We worked for 15
minutes and then took a small break 5-10 minute. Then we picked another
task. We did this for a couple hours. Ds 5 wandered away after a couple jobs
and dd 11 lasted over a hour. And they both played with the baby so I could
be more productive. dh and finished everything else. This worked for them
because they didn't feel overwhelmed and had options. They were free to stop
if they wanted to. DS cleaned (extra cleaned as he says) the windows...he
used a full bottle of vinegar :-) And that job wasn't even on the list! It
also works for me, I feel like everyone is taking part and I feel less
overwhelmed. DD is up most nights and will occasional do things if I ask. I
find that when I make lists people help me.
Faith
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
>
> On Oct 28, 2008, at 6:12 AM, Tracee wrote:
>
> > I keep asking
> > myself, what kid would want to clean up all these overwhelming piles
> > of toys, dishes, etc., if I can't even get up the willpower to do it?
>
> RIGHT. It IS overwhelming. So - my husband is really good at "make it
> approachable" - he does this even for me sometimes, when the kitchen
> gets overwhelming. He just goes in and does some of the work. He
> doesn't seem to have the need to totally finish what he started, to
> end up with a sparkling clean kitchen with the sink washed and
> counters and floor cleaned. When "I" do the dishes, I end up cleaning
> the stove. He doesn't even clean the sink or wipe off the counters.
> Because he doesn't seem to see the huge job that needs doing, but just
> notices that we're short of clean dishes, he can go in and do a bunch
> of dishes. When he does that, it makes the job look less overwhelming
> to me and I go in and do the rest.
>
> So - maybe do that for the kids. Do the first half of a job and ask
> them for help to finish it up.
>
> -pam
>
>
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kathleen Gehrke
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
were not shower takers but now LOVE it.. Like several times a day.
As far as chores I generally just ask if we can pick up for a few
minutes. If someone is busy or not wanting to then whoever is willing
kicks in and in several minutes we can have the house presentable.
I also do most of the deep cleaning myself. If we are going to do a
room I have asked for help and I am always amazed how much we can get
done together.
I do have fantasies about a housekeeper, but honestly do not mind the
housekeeping.
Kathleen
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>spend
>>
> Also, the hygiene thing - it is SUPER common for kids to not want to
> shower at your son's age. I don't know why, but it is just very very
> common. Try to relax about it. Be honest with him about the smell -
> if there really IS smell, do him the favor of telling him and giving
> him ideas of how to deal with it. Give him some baby wipes to use
> under his arms. maybe. But if there is no smell, just let it go. It
> WILL pass. He will most like move into a phase in which he will
> LOTS of time in the shower - lots and lots!I have one sone who does not shower often. But his two older brothers
were not shower takers but now LOVE it.. Like several times a day.
As far as chores I generally just ask if we can pick up for a few
minutes. If someone is busy or not wanting to then whoever is willing
kicks in and in several minutes we can have the house presentable.
I also do most of the deep cleaning myself. If we are going to do a
room I have asked for help and I am always amazed how much we can get
done together.
I do have fantasies about a housekeeper, but honestly do not mind the
housekeeping.
Kathleen
Bekki Kirby
Stacey, any chance you live near San Antonio, TX? I actually enjoy
cleaning, and generally have energy for it... oddly enough, even more
so when it's not my own mess. I'd be a free maid for a friend. :-)
Bekki
--
"Do not ask what the world needs. Instead, ask what makes you come
alive. Because what the world needs is more people who have come
alive."
--Thurmond Whitman
Mother of three angels and two pirates
Kayla (9)
Hunter (b. 8/9/03, d. 8/22/03)
Jo (misc 1/15/04)
Jared (3)
Camelia (b. 12/16/07, d. 12/10/07)
cleaning, and generally have energy for it... oddly enough, even more
so when it's not my own mess. I'd be a free maid for a friend. :-)
Bekki
--
"Do not ask what the world needs. Instead, ask what makes you come
alive. Because what the world needs is more people who have come
alive."
--Thurmond Whitman
Mother of three angels and two pirates
Kayla (9)
Hunter (b. 8/9/03, d. 8/22/03)
Jo (misc 1/15/04)
Jared (3)
Camelia (b. 12/16/07, d. 12/10/07)
Tracee
-
Stacey, what are you doing about the depression? I have been battling
depression and anxiety for the better part of 7 years. I can't say I
know you you feel. But I know how it felt for me. I also know that
somehow, you have to pull yourself up out of it, whether that be by
shear determination and willpower, or by taking something that will
give you the extra umph you need. I just weaned off the
pharmaceutical antidepressant I had been on for over 5 years. I am
taking a bunch of vitamins and supplements and making it work. E-mail
me personally if you'd like suggestions on what to take. I had the
help of a Medical Doctor that's very into natural remedies. The
depression is gone, though I'm having trouble sometimes with
anxiety..which often comes out as defensiveness on lists like this, LOL!
~Tracee honeybeeecplus3 at aol dot com
-- In [email protected], "Stacey Grimm"
<taboulichic@...> wrote:
Stacey, what are you doing about the depression? I have been battling
depression and anxiety for the better part of 7 years. I can't say I
know you you feel. But I know how it felt for me. I also know that
somehow, you have to pull yourself up out of it, whether that be by
shear determination and willpower, or by taking something that will
give you the extra umph you need. I just weaned off the
pharmaceutical antidepressant I had been on for over 5 years. I am
taking a bunch of vitamins and supplements and making it work. E-mail
me personally if you'd like suggestions on what to take. I had the
help of a Medical Doctor that's very into natural remedies. The
depression is gone, though I'm having trouble sometimes with
anxiety..which often comes out as defensiveness on lists like this, LOL!
~Tracee honeybeeecplus3 at aol dot com
-- In [email protected], "Stacey Grimm"
<taboulichic@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 8:06 PM, landvchapman <landvchapman@...> wrote:
> >
> > ~~~Obviously chore charts with money and/or other incentives don't
> >
> > Threats don't work. Not pushing them to do chores doesn't work.
> > Doing it all
> > myself doesn't work. Doing chores with them doesn't work.~~~
> >
> > What exactly do you mean when you use the words "don't/doesn't
> > work". "Chore charts with money and/or other incentives don't
> > work" to accomplish what?
> >
> > Is the goal to get household tasks done?
> > Is it to get the kids to share in the household tasks?
> > Is it to get the kids to see the value in having a tidy space/house?
> > Is it to eliminate some of your workload by sharing the load with
> > someone else?
> > Is it to help the kids understand that when you live with other
> > people you have a responsibility to others?
> > Is it to make the kids realize that they aren't going to get a free
> > ride from you. You aren't raising lazy, no good, kids with
> > entitlement issues?
> > Is it to make you happier because you don't function as well in
> > disorder?
>
> All of the above, really. But if I wanted to be very specific I'd say
> it's mostly: to get household tasks done, eliminate some of my
> workload by sharing the load with someone else, and to help the kids
> understand that when you live with other people you have a
> responsibility to others.
>
> Someone else asked in a roundabout way what ages my kids are. They're
> 13 yrs, 12 yrs and 2 mos. I don't expect the 2 month old to do
> anything except be cute and make more work (diapers, laundry).
>
> > The hardest thing to
> > swallow is the idea that I might have been making those demands or
> > rules or restrictions for no other real reason than that they made
> > things more convenient for me.
>
> There is, of course, an element of that too for me and moreso for my
> husband. But dh gets a little "nutso" in a messy-house situation, and
> as I mentioned before he hasn't the time to make it the way he wants
> it.
>
> Personally, I can tolerate more of a mess than he, but I have issues
> with the kitchen and bathroom being a mess. The trouble is, I am
> clinically depressed (Major Depression, diagnosed & treated,
> hereditary), and that shows up mostly in the physical for me. I just
> don't have the energy and it's not about changing my attitude. I can
> change my attitude until I'm blue in the face but that doesn't change
> the fact that my body is just not on board with doing a lot of things
> - and I already do a lot for someone with my limitations. I have had
> to find coping mechanisms that really work for me, those things are
> gardening, bird-watching, cooking/baking, and knitting & crocheting.
> And it's not as though I don't set about doing chores myself. I
> voluntarily go about laundry day(s), daily washing of diapers, picking
> up after the kids and dh, mending clothes and costumes, knitting or
> crocheting wearable items for the family, making nice meals for the
> family, and so on rather joyfully, oftentimes singing while I do them.
> The kids see this. Do they join in or follow along? No.
>
> OTOH, my dd does clean her own room periodically of her own volition,
> and she cares for her snake in a way that makes me think she'll be an
> excellent, doting mother one day if she chooses. And so I know she's
> picking something good up from me.
>
> My older ds, however, (and he's 12), will leave things to go until,
> for example, his room was so messy the cats had been using it as a
> litter box. He finally cleaned his room to get rid of the smell, only
> the smell had set in he let it go so long. He has to be reminded - and
> I hate that I feel compelled to do this - to take a shower, for
> another example. I love him to pieces, but i don't want to be
> physically near him if his body odor is repulsive. Hygiene is another
> important topic to me, but that's probably another email for another
> time.
>
> > I think the best way to get kids to help out around the house is to
> > not expect them to, ever. Never make it a battle. It would be best
> > if it were a non issue from the very day they were born. Just keep
> > cleaning up.
>
> ...in a perfect world...
>
> > But most people start out in a much more mainstream place. So then,
> > if they find their way to unschooling, they have to undo the damage
> > that has already been done.
>
> Which is why I'm asking. I don't really want to let this go as a
> damaging thing or as a forceful thing or as a battle or something by
> which the kids and I alienate ourselves one from the other. Would like
> to find an amenable solution!
>
> > it. If you are really just looking to have a clean house but can't
> > or don't want to do it yourself, hire someone to do it or change how
> > you feel about having a clean house. Own it as being your issue.
> > Don't make it an issue for your children too.
>
> Someone else also suggested I might hire a maid. That's a great idea!
> But we can't afford one. :-( One of our cars just blew its head
> gaskets and it's not a repair we can afford, so we're down to one car
> and scrimping so as to save up for another second/family car. We're
> getting by in dh's economy commuting car for the next few months. Four
> adult sized people and a baby in a Mazda3. *blinkblink* ...not that a
> maid is an expense we can reasonably justify anyway. DH keeps the
> books, not me (thankgod!).
>
> > Not tolerable for who? It must not be bothering them if they are
>
> Well, me, of course. I know full well this is my issue.
>
> > leaving it that way. This is your issue. There are all kinds of
> > things that would "work" to get your kids to clean up the kitchen or
> > whatever. But they aren't going to support an unschooling
> > lifestyle. They aren't going to foster joy, love, and respect.
>
> Hmm... But y'know, I don't go into their rooms and leave my dirty
> dishes, clothes and shoes laying about. I realize that I was
> originally talking about the common areas, but the analogy does apply
> to a degree.
>
> > Could your husband do a quick clean up of the kitchen before he goes
> > to bed if he is up late? Do you go to bed before your kids and then
> > they eat and make a mess, leaving it for you in the morning? Or are
> > is this accumulating over the day and you are wanting/expecting your
> > kids to clean it all up?
>
> DH had been doing chores with them for a short while and he reported
> that it did work. His putting on TMBG and doing various household
> chores with the kids did seem effective. This was at night after I'd
> gone to bed. I'm a morning person, the rest of the household members
> are night owls. He has since gotten behind with the financial end of
> keeping our house running and so has gone back to that to catch up.
> Meanwhile, I still go to bed around 9 with the baby, and the next
> morning I find dirty dishes left around the living room and kitchen.
>
> I cook and clean up after myself while I'm cooking. They cook for
> themselves and leave the mess to sit. I'm just not seeing the setting
> an example and showing respect working. I feel taken advantage of,
> like they know if they make a mess I'm going to clean it up.
>
> > fun. It doesn't seem like something you enjoy either. Maybe if you
> > changed your view of housework they would change theirs? That is
>
> Which view is that? I addressed this above re: depression, its
> physical manifestation, and attitude changes. Also addressed above the
> chores I do happily.
>
> > what is working for me to have the kind of relationship I am striving
> > for with my children, and once in a while I get a clean house out of
> > it too.
>
> I'd like that (all of it! :-) too.
>
> >
> > ~Lynda
>
> --
> ~Stacey
>
> <a href="http://www.bobbarr2008.com/">Liberty for America</a>
>
Sigrid
Wow, I wish I could find $40 a week extra to hire someone to clean my
house! I'm sorry, but to many people, that's A LOT of money and means
the difference between eating properly or paying major, unavoidable
bills (such as the electric bill!) That's over 2K a year!
house! I'm sorry, but to many people, that's A LOT of money and means
the difference between eating properly or paying major, unavoidable
bills (such as the electric bill!) That's over 2K a year!
Pamela Sorooshian
When we didn't have the money for things like this, I traded with
people. I babysat. I tutored. There are ways. And - it doesn't have to
be $40 per week, it could be per month. It could be that you find a
teen who is willing to work for $5 for an hour or two per week.
But, that said, to many people, $40 is less than they spend on fast
food every week. If they had someone come in and clean, they'd be more
likely to fix food in their own kitchen and probably end up saving
money.
You know - if something doesn't work for you, you can ignore it.
Criticizing people's suggestions is a sure-fire way to end up with
fewer ideas generated.
-pam
people. I babysat. I tutored. There are ways. And - it doesn't have to
be $40 per week, it could be per month. It could be that you find a
teen who is willing to work for $5 for an hour or two per week.
But, that said, to many people, $40 is less than they spend on fast
food every week. If they had someone come in and clean, they'd be more
likely to fix food in their own kitchen and probably end up saving
money.
You know - if something doesn't work for you, you can ignore it.
Criticizing people's suggestions is a sure-fire way to end up with
fewer ideas generated.
-pam
On Oct 29, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Sigrid wrote:
> Wow, I wish I could find $40 a week extra to hire someone to clean my
> house! I'm sorry, but to many people, that's A LOT of money and means
> the difference between eating properly or paying major, unavoidable
> bills (such as the electric bill!) That's over 2K a year!
Sigrid
Isn't that what we all do? Someone posts and someone else (like you)
responds. I wasn't criticizing, just pointing out that for some folks,
that's a huge amount of money these days, especially for parents getting
by on one income. Yes, there are those who spend money on fast food,
pay for lots of what others consider to be luxuries (cable tv, etc.) and
then complain about not having money, but there are also those who
don't, who truly live close to the bone. My point was that the initial
poster had already said that wasn't an option and someone else blithely
suggested she spend the money she already said she didn't have to hire
someone in.
On lists like this, I find it's good to read (listen) with an open,
charitable heart and pay attention (there's that listening again) to the
details.
Didn't mean to offend, just offering up some perspective from some folks
in different circumstances. After all, isn't that often how we learn
new things--from others' experiences?
responds. I wasn't criticizing, just pointing out that for some folks,
that's a huge amount of money these days, especially for parents getting
by on one income. Yes, there are those who spend money on fast food,
pay for lots of what others consider to be luxuries (cable tv, etc.) and
then complain about not having money, but there are also those who
don't, who truly live close to the bone. My point was that the initial
poster had already said that wasn't an option and someone else blithely
suggested she spend the money she already said she didn't have to hire
someone in.
On lists like this, I find it's good to read (listen) with an open,
charitable heart and pay attention (there's that listening again) to the
details.
Didn't mean to offend, just offering up some perspective from some folks
in different circumstances. After all, isn't that often how we learn
new things--from others' experiences?
Erin
"I am taking a bunch of vitamins and supplements and making it work."
Tracee,
I have been on anti-depressants for 9 years and just weaned off of
Effexor in July and I'm currently weaning off of Wellbutrin SR! I'm
feeling great and I'm so excited to be getting off of these drugs.
Effexor was really hard to wean off of, but definitely worth it!
I'm interested in finding out about the supplements and vitamins you're
taking. I'm not great at taking vitamins and such, but considering I'm
used to taking meds every day I can just "replace" the med taking time
with supplement taking time! I have considered taking flax seed oil
supplements and a regular multi-vitamin, but other than that I'm lost :)
Thanks,
Erin
Tracee,
I have been on anti-depressants for 9 years and just weaned off of
Effexor in July and I'm currently weaning off of Wellbutrin SR! I'm
feeling great and I'm so excited to be getting off of these drugs.
Effexor was really hard to wean off of, but definitely worth it!
I'm interested in finding out about the supplements and vitamins you're
taking. I'm not great at taking vitamins and such, but considering I'm
used to taking meds every day I can just "replace" the med taking time
with supplement taking time! I have considered taking flax seed oil
supplements and a regular multi-vitamin, but other than that I'm lost :)
Thanks,
Erin
Stacey Grimm
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Bekki Kirby <junegoddess@...> wrote:
--
~Stacey
<a href="http://www.bobbarr2008.com/">Liberty for America</a>
> Stacey, any chance you live near San Antonio, TX? I actually enjoyI used to live near San Antonio, FL (no,really!), but I now live near York, PA.
> cleaning, and generally have energy for it... oddly enough, even more
> so when it's not my own mess. I'd be a free maid for a friend. :-)
>
> Bekki
--
~Stacey
<a href="http://www.bobbarr2008.com/">Liberty for America</a>
Stacey Grimm
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
commuting to work, or part of groceries, or ... It's just not there
to spend.
him to deodorant. It's been uphill for a while.
--
~Stacey
<a href="http://www.bobbarr2008.com/">Liberty for America</a>
> Stacey --It's just not that easy! $40/wk, for us, is gas for my husband
>
> PLEASE give this a try. Find someone to do some of the work around the
> house for you and your kids. When the house is already neater and more
> orderly, you'll find that the kids will help more with keeping it that
> way and you won't be as tense about it and your husband will be
> happier. I bet you can find $40 a week to pay someone to come in and
> clean up for a few hours a week and it will make a HUGE difference to
> you.
commuting to work, or part of groceries, or ... It's just not there
to spend.
> common. Try to relax about it. Be honest with him about the smell -Oh dear goodness is there a smell! We've discussed it. I've introduced
> if there really IS smell, do him the favor of telling him and giving
him to deodorant. It's been uphill for a while.
--
~Stacey
<a href="http://www.bobbarr2008.com/">Liberty for America</a>
ladyslinky
I know I am new and this is my first post here but I just wanted to
chime in with my experince with trying to find someone other then my
family to help. I have similar issues to the OP and little to no
organizational skills.
We can't really afford a maid either but it got to the point and still
is at that point were something had to give. I First tried with
finding someone to get together and clean each others houses. I got a
few people who were interested but no one was ever willing to commit
so it never happened. I did get offers of people who were willing to
come over and throw all our stuff away with little regard to what was
tossed and that did not seem like what we wanted either.
So I looked into getting a maid. I called around and soon found that
all the maid services would be useless as I would have to do the part
that is overwhelming me in order to do the part they do which is
actually the part I like to do but never get to do due to the
overwhelming parts. So I looked into self employed maids and even had
a couple come over to give me an estimate on a day when the house was
pretty good I thought. I was told "I would not even know where to
start call me when you get rid of the mess."
So I gave in to having my MIL come up and help us get the house
organized so that maybe I could handle it and at least find things or
maybe get to the point where a maid would be willing to actually do
what her job title indicates. I mean she kept decent house so it
seemed a logical choice. Unfortunately she insisted the house be clean
before she starts organizing it and subscribes to the children are
slave labor mentality. Problem is if things do not have homes its
awful hard to put things away. SO while it was cleaner while she was
here it did not solve the over all issue.
So I am at a huge loss here. I can't do it by myself. I used to try
with my kids following me undoing everything practically as soon as I
did it, Spending my whole life futilely failing to achieve a minimal
standard of cleanliness and feeling like nothing but a failure. I
could clean house all day taking out several bags of garbage and it
would look like I did nothing when my husband got home from work. Any
joy I had in cleaning was completely destroyed. I now hate and resent
cleaning house and feel like it is a futile life sucking activity.
So my question is how do you find a maid that is willing to actually
clean a messy house?
chime in with my experince with trying to find someone other then my
family to help. I have similar issues to the OP and little to no
organizational skills.
We can't really afford a maid either but it got to the point and still
is at that point were something had to give. I First tried with
finding someone to get together and clean each others houses. I got a
few people who were interested but no one was ever willing to commit
so it never happened. I did get offers of people who were willing to
come over and throw all our stuff away with little regard to what was
tossed and that did not seem like what we wanted either.
So I looked into getting a maid. I called around and soon found that
all the maid services would be useless as I would have to do the part
that is overwhelming me in order to do the part they do which is
actually the part I like to do but never get to do due to the
overwhelming parts. So I looked into self employed maids and even had
a couple come over to give me an estimate on a day when the house was
pretty good I thought. I was told "I would not even know where to
start call me when you get rid of the mess."
So I gave in to having my MIL come up and help us get the house
organized so that maybe I could handle it and at least find things or
maybe get to the point where a maid would be willing to actually do
what her job title indicates. I mean she kept decent house so it
seemed a logical choice. Unfortunately she insisted the house be clean
before she starts organizing it and subscribes to the children are
slave labor mentality. Problem is if things do not have homes its
awful hard to put things away. SO while it was cleaner while she was
here it did not solve the over all issue.
So I am at a huge loss here. I can't do it by myself. I used to try
with my kids following me undoing everything practically as soon as I
did it, Spending my whole life futilely failing to achieve a minimal
standard of cleanliness and feeling like nothing but a failure. I
could clean house all day taking out several bags of garbage and it
would look like I did nothing when my husband got home from work. Any
joy I had in cleaning was completely destroyed. I now hate and resent
cleaning house and feel like it is a futile life sucking activity.
So my question is how do you find a maid that is willing to actually
clean a messy house?
Faith Void
I am not the neatest or tidiest or most organized. I try to do the best I
can. One thing I have learned is take it small. I clean each room for only
15 minutes than break for at least that long. I have a 13 month old so I
understand how frustrating that can be. My ds5 will at times help and other
times raze, lol. I have learned to laugh. Although I do need to remind
myself of that from time to time.
I recommend breaking your project into small parts that might take around 15
minutes. If you living room is so cluttered you can't use it like a living
room start there. Get a bunch of bins and start sorting for 15 minutes. Or
start with just trash removal. If your kids are old enough make it a game
somehow. Sometimes I have pirates that with search for treasure (trash) and
get a big bag of booty. Yes this makes the chore take longer but the journey
is as important as the end. Then move on to taking everything that doesn't
belong in that room to where it belongs. If you want to get rid of stuff as
well. Or box up some stuff for a while until you get a better handle on
stuff.
I remember you mentioning things not having homes. You need to create them.
Buy or make shelves. Buy or find boxes (even free boxes from the liquor
store). Label the boxes. Making homes is the first step. If you need more
help with that ask a specific question.
This might sound crazy but I love to watch Clean House. I have been so
inspired by that show. I love to see how they swoop in and make everything
orderly and nice. Now I don't want my house show room pretty so I am happy
with our "lived in" look, lol. But I have learned to make homes and small
organizing ideas from that show.
I think this is making me want to write a blog...
Faith
can. One thing I have learned is take it small. I clean each room for only
15 minutes than break for at least that long. I have a 13 month old so I
understand how frustrating that can be. My ds5 will at times help and other
times raze, lol. I have learned to laugh. Although I do need to remind
myself of that from time to time.
I recommend breaking your project into small parts that might take around 15
minutes. If you living room is so cluttered you can't use it like a living
room start there. Get a bunch of bins and start sorting for 15 minutes. Or
start with just trash removal. If your kids are old enough make it a game
somehow. Sometimes I have pirates that with search for treasure (trash) and
get a big bag of booty. Yes this makes the chore take longer but the journey
is as important as the end. Then move on to taking everything that doesn't
belong in that room to where it belongs. If you want to get rid of stuff as
well. Or box up some stuff for a while until you get a better handle on
stuff.
I remember you mentioning things not having homes. You need to create them.
Buy or make shelves. Buy or find boxes (even free boxes from the liquor
store). Label the boxes. Making homes is the first step. If you need more
help with that ask a specific question.
This might sound crazy but I love to watch Clean House. I have been so
inspired by that show. I love to see how they swoop in and make everything
orderly and nice. Now I don't want my house show room pretty so I am happy
with our "lived in" look, lol. But I have learned to make homes and small
organizing ideas from that show.
I think this is making me want to write a blog...
Faith
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:21 PM, ladyslinky <lady_slinky@...> wrote:
> I know I am new and this is my first post here but I just wanted to
> chime in with my experince with trying to find someone other then my
> family to help. I have similar issues to the OP and little to no
> organizational skills.
>
> We can't really afford a maid either but it got to the point and still
> is at that point were something had to give. I First tried with
> finding someone to get together and clean each others houses. I got a
> few people who were interested but no one was ever willing to commit
> so it never happened. I did get offers of people who were willing to
> come over and throw all our stuff away with little regard to what was
> tossed and that did not seem like what we wanted either.
>
> So I looked into getting a maid. I called around and soon found that
> all the maid services would be useless as I would have to do the part
> that is overwhelming me in order to do the part they do which is
> actually the part I like to do but never get to do due to the
> overwhelming parts. So I looked into self employed maids and even had
> a couple come over to give me an estimate on a day when the house was
> pretty good I thought. I was told "I would not even know where to
> start call me when you get rid of the mess."
>
> So I gave in to having my MIL come up and help us get the house
> organized so that maybe I could handle it and at least find things or
> maybe get to the point where a maid would be willing to actually do
> what her job title indicates. I mean she kept decent house so it
> seemed a logical choice. Unfortunately she insisted the house be clean
> before she starts organizing it and subscribes to the children are
> slave labor mentality. Problem is if things do not have homes its
> awful hard to put things away. SO while it was cleaner while she was
> here it did not solve the over all issue.
>
> So I am at a huge loss here. I can't do it by myself. I used to try
> with my kids following me undoing everything practically as soon as I
> did it, Spending my whole life futilely failing to achieve a minimal
> standard of cleanliness and feeling like nothing but a failure. I
> could clean house all day taking out several bags of garbage and it
> would look like I did nothing when my husband got home from work. Any
> joy I had in cleaning was completely destroyed. I now hate and resent
> cleaning house and feel like it is a futile life sucking activity.
>
> So my question is how do you find a maid that is willing to actually
> clean a messy house?
>
>
>
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Erin
I've never actually had a maid, but from what I do know about maid
services...they just really want to scrub your toilets, sinks, and
floors; dust; vacuum; maybe change your sheets and such.
I can tell from your post you desperately want a house that looks and
feels clean, but you have no idea where to start. My suggestion is
to start small. Start by finding a "home" for everything new that
you bring into the house.
Then, try doing these things every day--
1. Go through your mail and throw away the "trash" mail and find
a "home" for the bills to live in while they are waiting to be paid.
2. Do your dishes and clean your kitchen counters every night before
bed.
3. Every morning collect all the dirty laundry from the house and
take it to the laundry room.
4. Do two loads of laundry every day...from start to finish (put
away those 2 loads).
5. Pick one area to work on and just spend 15 minutes (at least once
a day) sorting through things--either find a new home for it, put it
in a box labeled "keep", or throw it away. Give it time too. It
took a lot longer than one day for it to get messy...so it's going to
take time to get it where you want it.
On Saturdays you could take your "keep" box and find a new home for
everything you put in it that week.
Try visiting www.flylady.net and look through her suggestions. Don't
feel like you have to do everything just like she says, but see if
something there can inspire you to come up with a plan that works for
you and your family.
I do wish you lots of luck.
Erin
services...they just really want to scrub your toilets, sinks, and
floors; dust; vacuum; maybe change your sheets and such.
I can tell from your post you desperately want a house that looks and
feels clean, but you have no idea where to start. My suggestion is
to start small. Start by finding a "home" for everything new that
you bring into the house.
Then, try doing these things every day--
1. Go through your mail and throw away the "trash" mail and find
a "home" for the bills to live in while they are waiting to be paid.
2. Do your dishes and clean your kitchen counters every night before
bed.
3. Every morning collect all the dirty laundry from the house and
take it to the laundry room.
4. Do two loads of laundry every day...from start to finish (put
away those 2 loads).
5. Pick one area to work on and just spend 15 minutes (at least once
a day) sorting through things--either find a new home for it, put it
in a box labeled "keep", or throw it away. Give it time too. It
took a lot longer than one day for it to get messy...so it's going to
take time to get it where you want it.
On Saturdays you could take your "keep" box and find a new home for
everything you put in it that week.
Try visiting www.flylady.net and look through her suggestions. Don't
feel like you have to do everything just like she says, but see if
something there can inspire you to come up with a plan that works for
you and your family.
I do wish you lots of luck.
Erin
Pamela Sorooshian
You have my greatest sympathy. I used to feel exactly the way you've
described your feelings!
In answer to your question, I still think the ideal is to find a teen
who is willing to learn how to clean up the clutter in your house. I
have a friend who has four children and her aunt used to come over to
her house twice a week and "clean." I put "clean" in quotes because
she didn't scrub and sweep and dust and stuff like that - she
organized and threw away trash and cleaned closets and sorted through
the kids' clothing and toys and stuff like that. It made a HUGE
difference in my friend's life. She and her husband did the actual
cleaning, but they always had the space in which to do it (and they
could FIND the broom and other cleaning supplies). My friend had hired
"housekeepers" before, but she couldn't stand the stress of having to
clean all the clutter in order for the hired person to "clean."
Really - cleaning can be very minimal. Wipe out the sink and wipe off
the counters when you're brushing your teeth. Scrub the tub a little
when you're in the shower anyway. Clean out just the fruit drawer of
the fridge, not the whole fridge, while you wait for something to heat
up in the microwave. With "cleaning" the trick is to do the obvious
first and to do little bits constantly and NEVER expect it to feel
done. But with "organizing" the trick is to do the underlying stuff
first (i.e., clear off the top shelf in the closet) to make space for
the rest and, again, never expect to feel done.
-pam
described your feelings!
In answer to your question, I still think the ideal is to find a teen
who is willing to learn how to clean up the clutter in your house. I
have a friend who has four children and her aunt used to come over to
her house twice a week and "clean." I put "clean" in quotes because
she didn't scrub and sweep and dust and stuff like that - she
organized and threw away trash and cleaned closets and sorted through
the kids' clothing and toys and stuff like that. It made a HUGE
difference in my friend's life. She and her husband did the actual
cleaning, but they always had the space in which to do it (and they
could FIND the broom and other cleaning supplies). My friend had hired
"housekeepers" before, but she couldn't stand the stress of having to
clean all the clutter in order for the hired person to "clean."
Really - cleaning can be very minimal. Wipe out the sink and wipe off
the counters when you're brushing your teeth. Scrub the tub a little
when you're in the shower anyway. Clean out just the fruit drawer of
the fridge, not the whole fridge, while you wait for something to heat
up in the microwave. With "cleaning" the trick is to do the obvious
first and to do little bits constantly and NEVER expect it to feel
done. But with "organizing" the trick is to do the underlying stuff
first (i.e., clear off the top shelf in the closet) to make space for
the rest and, again, never expect to feel done.
-pam
On Nov 1, 2008, at 2:21 PM, ladyslinky wrote:
> So I am at a huge loss here. I can't do it by myself. I used to try
> with my kids following me undoing everything practically as soon as I
> did it, Spending my whole life futilely failing to achieve a minimal
> standard of cleanliness and feeling like nothing but a failure. I
> could clean house all day taking out several bags of garbage and it
> would look like I did nothing when my husband got home from work. Any
> joy I had in cleaning was completely destroyed. I now hate and resent
> cleaning house and feel like it is a futile life sucking activity.
>
>
> So my question is how do you find a maid that is willing to actually
> clean a messy house?
seccotine_ch
--- Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
children. Don't think you won't!
I really like this idea, but I have a question here.
I DO hate cleaning. Or rather : I hate cleaning so much for such a
poor, short-lasting result.
I've been complaining about it a lot, even if I know how useless it
is. So they know how much I hate that (working for no apparent result,
because they undo what I do lightning fast).
Do you think that, if I succeed in changing my inner attitude, this
would be enough to *erase* all these words they've heard ? And how do
you do that ? How did you realise that it was your gift to your family
? Did it hit you as an evidence the first time you heard about it ? Is
is a mere question of will (from now on, I won't hate cleaning so much)
Many thanks
Helen
> It's ALL about attitude. I cannot stress that enough. You apparentlyhate cleaning---and you'll be passing that attitude on to your
children. Don't think you won't!
>*******
I really like this idea, but I have a question here.
I DO hate cleaning. Or rather : I hate cleaning so much for such a
poor, short-lasting result.
I've been complaining about it a lot, even if I know how useless it
is. So they know how much I hate that (working for no apparent result,
because they undo what I do lightning fast).
Do you think that, if I succeed in changing my inner attitude, this
would be enough to *erase* all these words they've heard ? And how do
you do that ? How did you realise that it was your gift to your family
? Did it hit you as an evidence the first time you heard about it ? Is
is a mere question of will (from now on, I won't hate cleaning so much)
Many thanks
Helen
Bekki Kirby
For all those who struggle with organizing and clutter... have you
heard of or tried Flylady's system?
She has a book or two, but her website and email list are very
thorough and don't cost anything. After a few years of "flywashing"
(her term for brainwashing), my attitude has changed. I never really
hated tidying up, but... I disliked it enough to rarely get around to
doing it. I never really did her routine exactly, but I did get a few
good habits ingrained permanently in my head, and most-importantly I
got a big attitude adjustment. She constantly refers to cleaning as
"blessing the house." And after hearing that a few thousand times,
that's how I feel about it.
So, yes, it's possible to undo the attitude passed down to the
children... just be patient. :-)
That said, despite me having a good attitude toward "blessing" for
most of my dd's life, she is COMPLETELY oblivious to messes. She
inherited her dad's... um... lack of concern. I'm finally accepting
that. My ds loves helping me clean, though, which just goes to show
that everyone is different.
It really did help me to realize that *I* am the one in this household
who desperately needs things put away. I get really cranky when the
floor is filling up with toys and cat fuzz. But no one else does.
Just me. So I clean it up and then I feel better. On the other hand,
despite my dust mite allergy, dusty surfaces don't bother me at all.
I've been known to go 6 months between dustings. Just my little
oddity. No one else in the house cares about dust, so... no one ends
up cleaning it. LOL And, to just keep rambling... the main reason I
hate dusting is because of our clutter level. We're not too bad, but
definitely have that "lived in" look, and every single horizontal
surface is full of stuff. I am not going to spend the time to take
every single thing off. I would LOVE to declutter some more, but that
butts up against my husband's genetic need to never get rid of
anything ever. Soooo... no dusting. :-)
I just really can't recommend Flylady enough. She understands clutter
that takes over the entire house, literally. She's lived it. And
she's gentle with people's feelings. She doesn't judge or condemn,
because it is NOT a personal failing to have a messy house.
Bekki
--
"Do not ask what the world needs. Instead, ask what makes you come
alive. Because what the world needs is more people who have come
alive."
--Thurmond Whitman
Mother of three angels and two pirates
Kayla (9)
Hunter (b. 8/9/03, d. 8/22/03)
Jo (misc 1/15/04)
Jared (3)
Camelia (b. 12/16/07, d. 12/10/07)
heard of or tried Flylady's system?
She has a book or two, but her website and email list are very
thorough and don't cost anything. After a few years of "flywashing"
(her term for brainwashing), my attitude has changed. I never really
hated tidying up, but... I disliked it enough to rarely get around to
doing it. I never really did her routine exactly, but I did get a few
good habits ingrained permanently in my head, and most-importantly I
got a big attitude adjustment. She constantly refers to cleaning as
"blessing the house." And after hearing that a few thousand times,
that's how I feel about it.
So, yes, it's possible to undo the attitude passed down to the
children... just be patient. :-)
That said, despite me having a good attitude toward "blessing" for
most of my dd's life, she is COMPLETELY oblivious to messes. She
inherited her dad's... um... lack of concern. I'm finally accepting
that. My ds loves helping me clean, though, which just goes to show
that everyone is different.
It really did help me to realize that *I* am the one in this household
who desperately needs things put away. I get really cranky when the
floor is filling up with toys and cat fuzz. But no one else does.
Just me. So I clean it up and then I feel better. On the other hand,
despite my dust mite allergy, dusty surfaces don't bother me at all.
I've been known to go 6 months between dustings. Just my little
oddity. No one else in the house cares about dust, so... no one ends
up cleaning it. LOL And, to just keep rambling... the main reason I
hate dusting is because of our clutter level. We're not too bad, but
definitely have that "lived in" look, and every single horizontal
surface is full of stuff. I am not going to spend the time to take
every single thing off. I would LOVE to declutter some more, but that
butts up against my husband's genetic need to never get rid of
anything ever. Soooo... no dusting. :-)
I just really can't recommend Flylady enough. She understands clutter
that takes over the entire house, literally. She's lived it. And
she's gentle with people's feelings. She doesn't judge or condemn,
because it is NOT a personal failing to have a messy house.
Bekki
--
"Do not ask what the world needs. Instead, ask what makes you come
alive. Because what the world needs is more people who have come
alive."
--Thurmond Whitman
Mother of three angels and two pirates
Kayla (9)
Hunter (b. 8/9/03, d. 8/22/03)
Jo (misc 1/15/04)
Jared (3)
Camelia (b. 12/16/07, d. 12/10/07)
Zoa Conner
Helen,
Here¹s an example: Do you like eating off dirty dishes? If not, then the
benefits of washing them outweigh the bother of cleaning them. So then maybe
you don¹t hate cleaning them as much as you thought. I used to despise and
put off doing dishes until there were so many it was overwhelming. Now, I
try and not do that on purpose. I also listen to music with headphones
during my dishwashing time so that it brings me joy. Sometimes I dance too.
Your family will probably need to hear your joy of cleaning for longer than
they have heard your hate of it. It will take time, but a change is very
likely to happen. And I believe it is a question of will. Simply decide that
you will do things differently and do you best to make that change.
Warmly,
Zoa
----------------
Zoa Conner, PhD
Physicist and Organic Learning Mother
zoaconner@...
*Handmade stuff @ earthyzee.etsy.com
*LaPlata Area Food Delivery @ laplata-area-food.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here¹s an example: Do you like eating off dirty dishes? If not, then the
benefits of washing them outweigh the bother of cleaning them. So then maybe
you don¹t hate cleaning them as much as you thought. I used to despise and
put off doing dishes until there were so many it was overwhelming. Now, I
try and not do that on purpose. I also listen to music with headphones
during my dishwashing time so that it brings me joy. Sometimes I dance too.
Your family will probably need to hear your joy of cleaning for longer than
they have heard your hate of it. It will take time, but a change is very
likely to happen. And I believe it is a question of will. Simply decide that
you will do things differently and do you best to make that change.
Warmly,
Zoa
----------------
Zoa Conner, PhD
Physicist and Organic Learning Mother
zoaconner@...
*Handmade stuff @ earthyzee.etsy.com
*LaPlata Area Food Delivery @ laplata-area-food.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
April Driggers
I suggest getting on the flylady.net website. get your daily e-mails, get
yourself a schedule and it will be done. ;) She's changed the lives of
thousands. :-)
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Erin
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 6:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Chores
I've never actually had a maid, but from what I do know about maid
services...they just really want to scrub your toilets, sinks, and
floors; dust; vacuum; maybe change your sheets and such.
I can tell from your post you desperately want a house that looks and
feels clean, but you have no idea where to start. My suggestion is
to start small. Start by finding a "home" for everything new that
you bring into the house.
Then, try doing these things every day--
1. Go through your mail and throw away the "trash" mail and find
a "home" for the bills to live in while they are waiting to be paid.
2. Do your dishes and clean your kitchen counters every night before
bed.
3. Every morning collect all the dirty laundry from the house and
take it to the laundry room.
4. Do two loads of laundry every day...from start to finish (put
away those 2 loads).
5. Pick one area to work on and just spend 15 minutes (at least once
a day) sorting through things--either find a new home for it, put it
in a box labeled "keep", or throw it away. Give it time too. It
took a lot longer than one day for it to get messy...so it's going to
take time to get it where you want it.
On Saturdays you could take your "keep" box and find a new home for
everything you put in it that week.
Try visiting www.flylady.net and look through her suggestions. Don't
feel like you have to do everything just like she says, but see if
something there can inspire you to come up with a plan that works for
you and your family.
I do wish you lots of luck.
Erin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
yourself a schedule and it will be done. ;) She's changed the lives of
thousands. :-)
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Erin
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 6:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Chores
I've never actually had a maid, but from what I do know about maid
services...they just really want to scrub your toilets, sinks, and
floors; dust; vacuum; maybe change your sheets and such.
I can tell from your post you desperately want a house that looks and
feels clean, but you have no idea where to start. My suggestion is
to start small. Start by finding a "home" for everything new that
you bring into the house.
Then, try doing these things every day--
1. Go through your mail and throw away the "trash" mail and find
a "home" for the bills to live in while they are waiting to be paid.
2. Do your dishes and clean your kitchen counters every night before
bed.
3. Every morning collect all the dirty laundry from the house and
take it to the laundry room.
4. Do two loads of laundry every day...from start to finish (put
away those 2 loads).
5. Pick one area to work on and just spend 15 minutes (at least once
a day) sorting through things--either find a new home for it, put it
in a box labeled "keep", or throw it away. Give it time too. It
took a lot longer than one day for it to get messy...so it's going to
take time to get it where you want it.
On Saturdays you could take your "keep" box and find a new home for
everything you put in it that week.
Try visiting www.flylady.net and look through her suggestions. Don't
feel like you have to do everything just like she says, but see if
something there can inspire you to come up with a plan that works for
you and your family.
I do wish you lots of luck.
Erin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]