postponing
Solé
And another question! How much postponing is allowed? Sometimes she
will suggest to do something at 10 pm and I'm reaaally not up to it,
tired and everything. Is it ok to promise to do it another day, and/
or should I persuade her with good arguments why I wouldn't do it
now? Real life example: I went to pick her up the other day from her
friend's place, at 7 pm. We had plans for that evening and also my bf
had to work and was waiting for me, we had not eaten yet, I had to
take care of my son (1 yr) who also hadn't eaten yet and would be
hungry soon, and well other "schoolish" things I had in mind as well,
like she has to get up early next day for school so we should start
to cook in time and such. At the car she suddenly suggested to walk
home alone. I thought it was kind of late to walk alone – I told her
my concerns but also said that if she was sure she could handle it,
she could go. But then she changed her mind and wanted to go to the
playground with me instead, but because of the above reasons I didn't
want to and explained. I then offered to do it tomorrow or another
day and even asked if she had time next day and so on... she finally
agreed (not like the conversation was very long though) on going
home, but not on doing it tomorrow, but she said "hmmmmmmmm you
ALWAYS have to persuade me... oookeeeeyyyy let's go *big sigh*",
though not crying or lamenting all the time as she did before, when I
didn't know yet that anything like unshcooling even existed. Do you
think this was no respecting her? Is it allowed to say "yes, tomorrow
we can do that"?
I try to follow the principles "don't do anything you wouldn't want
to be done to you" (and I wouldn't mind to be convinced by someone,
if it wasn't lies, so that one is ok, I thought), "don't say anything
just to manipulate her", (and I didn't, I stated the true facts -
but then again, one could argue that since any argument is never said
without any intention (at least it is thrown out to give "food for
thought", but mostly it is to convince someone or explain why you
choose x or y), this is manipulative too!) and "be respectful" (and I
was, I think, unless the act of not going to the playground was
already disrespectfull). Or am I lying to myself? I'm kind of confused!
thank you
Johanna
will suggest to do something at 10 pm and I'm reaaally not up to it,
tired and everything. Is it ok to promise to do it another day, and/
or should I persuade her with good arguments why I wouldn't do it
now? Real life example: I went to pick her up the other day from her
friend's place, at 7 pm. We had plans for that evening and also my bf
had to work and was waiting for me, we had not eaten yet, I had to
take care of my son (1 yr) who also hadn't eaten yet and would be
hungry soon, and well other "schoolish" things I had in mind as well,
like she has to get up early next day for school so we should start
to cook in time and such. At the car she suddenly suggested to walk
home alone. I thought it was kind of late to walk alone – I told her
my concerns but also said that if she was sure she could handle it,
she could go. But then she changed her mind and wanted to go to the
playground with me instead, but because of the above reasons I didn't
want to and explained. I then offered to do it tomorrow or another
day and even asked if she had time next day and so on... she finally
agreed (not like the conversation was very long though) on going
home, but not on doing it tomorrow, but she said "hmmmmmmmm you
ALWAYS have to persuade me... oookeeeeyyyy let's go *big sigh*",
though not crying or lamenting all the time as she did before, when I
didn't know yet that anything like unshcooling even existed. Do you
think this was no respecting her? Is it allowed to say "yes, tomorrow
we can do that"?
I try to follow the principles "don't do anything you wouldn't want
to be done to you" (and I wouldn't mind to be convinced by someone,
if it wasn't lies, so that one is ok, I thought), "don't say anything
just to manipulate her", (and I didn't, I stated the true facts -
but then again, one could argue that since any argument is never said
without any intention (at least it is thrown out to give "food for
thought", but mostly it is to convince someone or explain why you
choose x or y), this is manipulative too!) and "be respectful" (and I
was, I think, unless the act of not going to the playground was
already disrespectfull). Or am I lying to myself? I'm kind of confused!
thank you
Johanna
Ren Allen
"And another question! How much postponing is allowed? "
YOu're looking for concrete answers on how to live your life! We can't
give you that. We can only tell you the principles of unschooling, but
how they play out in your life is up to you. We can tell you what we
might have done in a certain situation, but only YOU can know what
works in each situation.
If I'm honestly too tired or hungry or whatever, I let the kids know
that. We sometimes write down ideas or questions on a notepad, when we
can't get to them right away. In our family, it's 6 people we are
balancing and considering, so it gets more complicated!
There is no "allowed" or "not allowed". There is no list of
unschooling "rules" or "right and wrong" to follow. There is a mindset
that you have to internalize in your very being and it takes time. I
hate to say "do what feels right" because for some people, smacking
their kids feels right! But there is a deep, internal place where
unschooling just becomes part of your life and view.
As to the television....I would watch with her, talk about the shows,
point out connections in real life to the shows she loves, bring her
food, offer to take her fun and cool places that she would enjoy and
not worry. The part about television took my kids almost a full year
(for my oldest anyway...the younger ones had much less damage to undo)
but it is now just another option among many.
I think if you can simply make the focus of your lives all about
bringing joy and feeding the relationships, then all the rest becomes
secondary. Don't worry so much about trying to fit into some
unschooling "code", just focus on having fun together...the learning
will follow.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
YOu're looking for concrete answers on how to live your life! We can't
give you that. We can only tell you the principles of unschooling, but
how they play out in your life is up to you. We can tell you what we
might have done in a certain situation, but only YOU can know what
works in each situation.
If I'm honestly too tired or hungry or whatever, I let the kids know
that. We sometimes write down ideas or questions on a notepad, when we
can't get to them right away. In our family, it's 6 people we are
balancing and considering, so it gets more complicated!
There is no "allowed" or "not allowed". There is no list of
unschooling "rules" or "right and wrong" to follow. There is a mindset
that you have to internalize in your very being and it takes time. I
hate to say "do what feels right" because for some people, smacking
their kids feels right! But there is a deep, internal place where
unschooling just becomes part of your life and view.
As to the television....I would watch with her, talk about the shows,
point out connections in real life to the shows she loves, bring her
food, offer to take her fun and cool places that she would enjoy and
not worry. The part about television took my kids almost a full year
(for my oldest anyway...the younger ones had much less damage to undo)
but it is now just another option among many.
I think if you can simply make the focus of your lives all about
bringing joy and feeding the relationships, then all the rest becomes
secondary. Don't worry so much about trying to fit into some
unschooling "code", just focus on having fun together...the learning
will follow.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Solé
Yeah, I'm kind of looking for concrete answers. I know one shouldn't
but don't forget that this is a huge change in my and other newbie's
life. We are not able to see things the way you do, because we have
not internalized everything yet, we can just do as if :-) To be able
to, we need concrete examples because sometimes we get confused. I'm
thinking about usnchooling/gentle parenting almost ALL day and try to
make the right decissions, try to follow my heart, try to do what I
"feel is right", try to follow unschooling principles, try to not
make them "rules" – I find it extremely fascinating and wonderful, I
love this approach to life – but it is also extremely confusing.
Sometimes a simple stupid question like "hm, was my postponing
helpful towards a good relationship, should I have don x or y?" will
follow me for 4 days and I just get stuck, I can't move on without
some enlightening words.
Thank you :-)
Johanna
Am 23.09.2006 um 03:03 schrieb Ren Allen:
but don't forget that this is a huge change in my and other newbie's
life. We are not able to see things the way you do, because we have
not internalized everything yet, we can just do as if :-) To be able
to, we need concrete examples because sometimes we get confused. I'm
thinking about usnchooling/gentle parenting almost ALL day and try to
make the right decissions, try to follow my heart, try to do what I
"feel is right", try to follow unschooling principles, try to not
make them "rules" – I find it extremely fascinating and wonderful, I
love this approach to life – but it is also extremely confusing.
Sometimes a simple stupid question like "hm, was my postponing
helpful towards a good relationship, should I have don x or y?" will
follow me for 4 days and I just get stuck, I can't move on without
some enlightening words.
Thank you :-)
Johanna
Am 23.09.2006 um 03:03 schrieb Ren Allen:
> YOu're looking for concrete answers on how to live your life! We can't
> give you that. We can only tell you the principles of unschooling, but
> how they play out in your life is up to you. We can tell you what we
> might have done in a certain situation, but only YOU can know what
> works in each situation.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 22, 2006, at 7:44 PM, Solé wrote:
It will help a lot to really examine where you need to say "tomorrow"
or "very soon". Try thinking out loud of the obstacles and encourage
brainstorming for solutions. Maybe rather than approaching a request
with thoughts of "Is that doable?", approach it with "How can I say
yes?" It may not be an immediate yes, but a shift in attitude from
seeing her requests as a complicating burden, to seeing how you can
make them possible, will come across.
behind your words but she's still hearing the old words. It will take
time to trust you.
If a friend had a history of lying to you, would her one day
announcing she wouldn't lie any more be sufficient to completely
trust her? She would need to accept that the burden of proving
herself over time and rebuilding trust was on her.
You'll need to build up a new history of following through on
respecting her requests. Once she's confident that you are treating
her wants and needs as seriously as you treat your own, and she's
confident that you work at meeting her needs, then she'll accept when
you have to say "How about tomorrow instead?"
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Do youYes, absolutely. Be honest about real limitations.
> think this was no respecting her? Is it allowed to say "yes, tomorrow
> we can do that"?
It will help a lot to really examine where you need to say "tomorrow"
or "very soon". Try thinking out loud of the obstacles and encourage
brainstorming for solutions. Maybe rather than approaching a request
with thoughts of "Is that doable?", approach it with "How can I say
yes?" It may not be an immediate yes, but a shift in attitude from
seeing her requests as a complicating burden, to seeing how you can
make them possible, will come across.
> but she said "hmmmmmmmm youThis is a left over. You may have changed the feelings and meaning
> ALWAYS have to persuade me... oookeeeeyyyy let's go *big sigh*",
> though not crying or lamenting all the time as she did before, when I
> didn't know yet that anything like unshcooling even existed.
behind your words but she's still hearing the old words. It will take
time to trust you.
If a friend had a history of lying to you, would her one day
announcing she wouldn't lie any more be sufficient to completely
trust her? She would need to accept that the burden of proving
herself over time and rebuilding trust was on her.
You'll need to build up a new history of following through on
respecting her requests. Once she's confident that you are treating
her wants and needs as seriously as you treat your own, and she's
confident that you work at meeting her needs, then she'll accept when
you have to say "How about tomorrow instead?"
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Solé
Am 23.09.2006 um 03:03 schrieb Ren Allen:
that. I'm aware of this, I don't mean it literally. But it could have
been that you say something like, postponing is not ok because of
such and such, and maybe this such and such would have convinced me
so that I would "not allow myself" to do it anymore, you know what I
mean? I can't know before hand if there are some "such and such" :-)
Johanna
> There is no "allowed" or "not allowed".Yeah, when I wrote that I already knew that someone would surely say
that. I'm aware of this, I don't mean it literally. But it could have
been that you say something like, postponing is not ok because of
such and such, and maybe this such and such would have convinced me
so that I would "not allow myself" to do it anymore, you know what I
mean? I can't know before hand if there are some "such and such" :-)
Johanna
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: solelokuai@...
Yeah, I'm kind of looking for concrete answers. I know one shouldn't
but don't forget that this is a huge change in my and other newbie's
life. We are not able to see things the way you do, because we have
not internalized everything yet, we can just do as if :-)
-=-=-=-=-
Keep in mind that we were also once where you are now! We *all* started
somewhere! <G>
And it's not as if we all get it right every minute of every day. We
still struggle too. But it gets easier and easier the more you DO it.
-=-==-=-
I'm thinking about usnchooling/gentle parenting almost ALL day and try
to
make the right decissions, try to follow my heart, try to do what I
"feel is right", try to follow unschooling principles, try to not
make them "rules" – I find it extremely fascinating and wonderful, I
love this approach to life – but it is also extremely confusing.
-=-=-=-=-
I STILL think about it a LOT! <g> I STILL try to make the right
decisions.
Is it *confusing*? Or just difficult?
I struggled, but I wasn't confused. I just had a hard time making the
adjustment. Giving up old ways versus the new. It was hard, but I
wasn't confused. Is that the word you mean to use?
I mean, I GOT it---I just couldn't always put it into practice. I could
look *back* and realize I didn't make the best choice, but it was often
*my* best choice at the moment. I'd try to make a *better* choice next
time I was in a similar situation. It gets easier! <g>
-=-=-=-
Sometimes a simple stupid question like "hm, was my postponing
helpful towards a good relationship, should I have don x or y?" will
follow me for 4 days and I just get stuck, I can't move on without
some enlightening words.
-=-=-=-=-
Enlightening words are always helpful! <G> That's why I was glued to
the message boards when I first started.
We can give you examples of what has worked for us in a similar
situation, but we're not you. Our kids aren't your kids. Every
situation is different.
Could you clarify what you're asking for? Maybe *I* am confused! <bwg>
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: solelokuai@...
Yeah, I'm kind of looking for concrete answers. I know one shouldn't
but don't forget that this is a huge change in my and other newbie's
life. We are not able to see things the way you do, because we have
not internalized everything yet, we can just do as if :-)
-=-=-=-=-
Keep in mind that we were also once where you are now! We *all* started
somewhere! <G>
And it's not as if we all get it right every minute of every day. We
still struggle too. But it gets easier and easier the more you DO it.
-=-==-=-
I'm thinking about usnchooling/gentle parenting almost ALL day and try
to
make the right decissions, try to follow my heart, try to do what I
"feel is right", try to follow unschooling principles, try to not
make them "rules" – I find it extremely fascinating and wonderful, I
love this approach to life – but it is also extremely confusing.
-=-=-=-=-
I STILL think about it a LOT! <g> I STILL try to make the right
decisions.
Is it *confusing*? Or just difficult?
I struggled, but I wasn't confused. I just had a hard time making the
adjustment. Giving up old ways versus the new. It was hard, but I
wasn't confused. Is that the word you mean to use?
I mean, I GOT it---I just couldn't always put it into practice. I could
look *back* and realize I didn't make the best choice, but it was often
*my* best choice at the moment. I'd try to make a *better* choice next
time I was in a similar situation. It gets easier! <g>
-=-=-=-
Sometimes a simple stupid question like "hm, was my postponing
helpful towards a good relationship, should I have don x or y?" will
follow me for 4 days and I just get stuck, I can't move on without
some enlightening words.
-=-=-=-=-
Enlightening words are always helpful! <G> That's why I was glued to
the message boards when I first started.
We can give you examples of what has worked for us in a similar
situation, but we're not you. Our kids aren't your kids. Every
situation is different.
Could you clarify what you're asking for? Maybe *I* am confused! <bwg>
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Solé
>Yeah but that's the thing! I know that I have to "do" it ("learning
> Keep in mind that we were also once where you are now! We *all*
> started
> somewhere! <G>
>
> And it's not as if we all get it right every minute of every day. We
> still struggle too. But it gets easier and easier the more you DO it.
>
>
by doing") – but then I sometimes need to know HOW to do it. For
instance, the suggestions question – of course I have tried to do it
all by myself for several weeks but I still don't get it, so I ask. I
try to keep in mind all the new things I know now and believe in, but
sometimes I don't know how to "do" it. I have observed that the more
I just do it, I internalize the new principles better then just by
memorizing or reading about it, obvious. But sometimes I need
concrete examples on how to do it – this might be examples of how you
would do it and somtimes concrete answers whether or not something is
"allowed".
>Yeah it is really confusing – it is actually both, difficult AND
>
> I STILL think about it a LOT! <g> I STILL try to make the right
> decisions.
>
> Is it *confusing*? Or just difficult?
>
> I struggled, but I wasn't confused. I just had a hard time making the
> adjustment. Giving up old ways versus the new. It was hard, but I
> wasn't confused. Is that the word you mean to use?
confusing, and then again even more difficult because of the
confusions. For instance, the recent post of Talia (taliasafa) is
very confusing: I find (no offense, Talia, and maybe I'm wrong!),
that what she's doing is quite manipulative and I thought that these
things are exactly what we are not "allowed" to do, what unschoolers
wouldn't do, and then I'm huh?? I thought.... Just when I thought "I
got it", someone will write something that completely confuses me –
and sometimes I also get confused when I try to implement the ideas
of unschooling in real life and I get stuck in loops. Like hm, she's
watching TV right now. She's actually watching TV all day. When would
be the right moment to suggest other things to do? should I suggest
anything at all, she's happily watching TV all day, why should I
interrupt her? But maybe she's just watching tv for lack of better
things to do! But TV isn't bad, so nothing is "better". Ok, then I
should suggest something. I suggest something, she doesn't want to.
Hm – but maybe she wants to do something else. Should I suggest
another thing? But then I interrupt again. But maybe she needs more
imput! and so on and on – I find it confusing that on the one hand I
want to allow her to watch TV whenever and all the time she wants and
on the other hand I want to do things with her, but have no real
space to tell her because she is watching all day and I don't quite
know when to suggest anything and if I should suggest just one thing
or more or just leave her alone until she's bored even if this means
in five months. :-)
>Of course I'm aware of this – I don't know how anyone couldn't be.
> We can give you examples of what has worked for us in a similar
> situation, but we're not you. Our kids aren't your kids. Every
> situation is different.
Just give me examples of what has worked for you in similar
situations and how you "do" it :-) I'm just expecting the list to
answer the way it is always answering, giving examples of how you do
it :-) I'm very thankful for this, it helps a lot!
>It's just that I can't know if there might be some arguments for
> Could you clarify what you're asking for? Maybe *I* am confused! <bwg>
>
*not* doing something which I "feel" is right in that moment. So I
when I asked if "postponing is allowed", I asked if there were any
(to me unknown) arguments against postponing. Maybe you would have
said oh nooo, we never ever postpone things because of X, and maybe
that X I just couldn't think of myself even though it seems obvious
after hearing about it – just as almost all of what unschooling is
about. Now I find everything so self evident and I feel like "duh,
why didn't I think of this before?" "how could I possibly think that
coercive methods could work even if I saw each day that they kinda
didn't?" :-) But before, I couldn't think of these things and "felt"
that my methods were the "best" one can do.
Johanna
Deb
You are *allowed* to do whatever works for your family. And very
likely it won't look exactly like what works for my family. Here, an
example from our house:
We have a basic principle of being safe. For me, that means I have
to really concentrate when I've got a sharp knife at hand (I just
historically have tended to get injured if I don't - I can even
slice my hand open with nothing more than a frozen bagel!). For DS,
he chooses not to use certain knives so he knows he'll be safe. DH
does just fine with even the big huge butcher knife, so we defer to
him when something (like a large watermelon) needs slicing.
I guess what I'm saying is that there are basic principles of
respect and trust that are foundational to unschooling but how that
looks (and changes over time) will vary from relationship to
relationship. That's why you aren't getting concrete answers on what
is "allowed".
As far as the original scenario (bf needs food, baby needs food, you
need food, picking up DD at 7 pm), I think I probably would have
just eaten/fed everyone else BEFORE going out to pick up DD and
probably have toted along a water bottle and a snack mix for her
(lately our favorite is a mix of pecans, raisins, and chocolate
chips). That would have alleviated the urgent need for food part of
the equation. It also sounded like your bf needed you to get home to
be with the baby in order to head off for work (but maybe I'm
misreading that). If that was the case, then I'd probably have said
something like "I need to get home so bf can go to work but once we
pick up the baby, we could go to <park nearer to home perhaps or
play in the yard or whatever>". If there was no urgent need to head
home (keeping in mind I've been fed and I have food available for
DD), then yeah I might've said okay to the playground and discussed
en route that I'd like to get home by 8:00 because I'm starting to
get tired (if that was true).
For the TV example, instead of interrupting, sit and watch until the
end of the program and then say something like "I'm going to go make
cookies - wanna help?" and you might get a yes, maybe a no, maybe
a "call me so I can lick the batter bowl", lol. Then accept the
answer, go make the cookies, and bring some fresh cookies and milk
back to the TV watcher. Or, "hey, I'm going to head out back to weed
the kumquats...wanna keep me company?" or whatever - just go and do,
whether it's watercoloring or watch repair. Like the movie said "If
you build it, they will come" - if you are building your own life,
it will draw in your kids and vice versa, as they build their lives,
it will draw you in (I never in my wildest thought I'd know as much
about Pokemon and Dr. Who as I do now).
What unschoolers might or might not do is one thing (how one
generally might apply a principle); what one is 'allowed' to do or
not do is something different. There is no central HQ that sets the
rules for unschooling. "Postponing" can't be allowed or not allowed,
we don't make the rules for you. However, if spending 20 minutes
taking a walk was okay but 20 minutes at the playground isn't, then
I might want to consider why that is. A young girl walking alone in
the dark is something I might also have qualms about and I'd be
clear about that. And, sometimes, yeah I'm just flat tired out at
the end of the day and I'll tell DS that if he wants me to
energetically participate in something. We can usually come up with
an alternative that suits both of us.
--Deb
likely it won't look exactly like what works for my family. Here, an
example from our house:
We have a basic principle of being safe. For me, that means I have
to really concentrate when I've got a sharp knife at hand (I just
historically have tended to get injured if I don't - I can even
slice my hand open with nothing more than a frozen bagel!). For DS,
he chooses not to use certain knives so he knows he'll be safe. DH
does just fine with even the big huge butcher knife, so we defer to
him when something (like a large watermelon) needs slicing.
I guess what I'm saying is that there are basic principles of
respect and trust that are foundational to unschooling but how that
looks (and changes over time) will vary from relationship to
relationship. That's why you aren't getting concrete answers on what
is "allowed".
As far as the original scenario (bf needs food, baby needs food, you
need food, picking up DD at 7 pm), I think I probably would have
just eaten/fed everyone else BEFORE going out to pick up DD and
probably have toted along a water bottle and a snack mix for her
(lately our favorite is a mix of pecans, raisins, and chocolate
chips). That would have alleviated the urgent need for food part of
the equation. It also sounded like your bf needed you to get home to
be with the baby in order to head off for work (but maybe I'm
misreading that). If that was the case, then I'd probably have said
something like "I need to get home so bf can go to work but once we
pick up the baby, we could go to <park nearer to home perhaps or
play in the yard or whatever>". If there was no urgent need to head
home (keeping in mind I've been fed and I have food available for
DD), then yeah I might've said okay to the playground and discussed
en route that I'd like to get home by 8:00 because I'm starting to
get tired (if that was true).
For the TV example, instead of interrupting, sit and watch until the
end of the program and then say something like "I'm going to go make
cookies - wanna help?" and you might get a yes, maybe a no, maybe
a "call me so I can lick the batter bowl", lol. Then accept the
answer, go make the cookies, and bring some fresh cookies and milk
back to the TV watcher. Or, "hey, I'm going to head out back to weed
the kumquats...wanna keep me company?" or whatever - just go and do,
whether it's watercoloring or watch repair. Like the movie said "If
you build it, they will come" - if you are building your own life,
it will draw in your kids and vice versa, as they build their lives,
it will draw you in (I never in my wildest thought I'd know as much
about Pokemon and Dr. Who as I do now).
What unschoolers might or might not do is one thing (how one
generally might apply a principle); what one is 'allowed' to do or
not do is something different. There is no central HQ that sets the
rules for unschooling. "Postponing" can't be allowed or not allowed,
we don't make the rules for you. However, if spending 20 minutes
taking a walk was okay but 20 minutes at the playground isn't, then
I might want to consider why that is. A young girl walking alone in
the dark is something I might also have qualms about and I'd be
clear about that. And, sometimes, yeah I'm just flat tired out at
the end of the day and I'll tell DS that if he wants me to
energetically participate in something. We can usually come up with
an alternative that suits both of us.
--Deb
Solé
Thank you for your answers,
Am 26.09.2006 um 14:46 schrieb Deb:
choose what *I* want to do than it would mostly be chatting, surfing
on the internet, reading emails and actually I'm most of my free time
and work time at the computer and I really enjoy it. Some other times
I cook or clean the house, which I both enjoy and can ask her to
accompany me, rarely I will do some "gardening" at our balcony, I'll
read something... but I will almost never ever do any handcrafting or
painting or sewing or knitting or baking cookies. So all the variety
of things you seem to be doing are things that I have to "force"
myself to do in order to provide a "I will bake cookies now wanna
join?", to provide a wide spectrum of things one can do. Maybe you
think "get a life!" but I quite like what I do and have absolutely no
problem with it for myself, except for not being able to naturally
provide a rich environment for my children. With my bf it's the same,
we LOVE computers and internet and we use this medium for many things
(being creative, reading and writing, contacting people, organising
things, working etc.) I used to think I was "addicted" to my computer
or to Internet, but all these texts about tv and video games not
being addictive for unschoolers I've read have made me realize that
this is just what I need, use and enjoy. Since we are unschooling we
do ask her each (rare) time we stand up from it if she wants to join
us cooking/cleaning/playing/reading/bathing/going out – I just don't
know if this is "enough". We do sit with her while she watches TV
(sometimes with sometimes without our laptops) now and she plays with
her own computer right next to us in our "office" so we are always
there to help and talk about it and someitmes play with her if she
wants. So I guess this feeling that it is not "enough" makes me feel
the urge to suggest more things which I wouldn't normally do, but
just to provide a richer spectrum of possibilities.
Any thoughts on that?
Johanna
Am 26.09.2006 um 14:46 schrieb Deb:
> For the TV example, instead of interrupting, sit and watch until theI think this part is most difficult for me/us. Because if I could
> end of the program and then say something like "I'm going to go make
> cookies - wanna help?" and you might get a yes, maybe a no, maybe
> a "call me so I can lick the batter bowl", lol. Then accept the
> answer, go make the cookies, and bring some fresh cookies and milk
> back to the TV watcher. Or, "hey, I'm going to head out back to weed
> the kumquats...wanna keep me company?" or whatever - just go and do,
> whether it's watercoloring or watch repair. Like the movie said "If
> you build it, they will come" - if you are building your own life,
> it will draw in your kids and vice versa, as they build their lives,
> it will draw you in (I never in my wildest thought I'd know as much
> about Pokemon and Dr. Who as I do now).
choose what *I* want to do than it would mostly be chatting, surfing
on the internet, reading emails and actually I'm most of my free time
and work time at the computer and I really enjoy it. Some other times
I cook or clean the house, which I both enjoy and can ask her to
accompany me, rarely I will do some "gardening" at our balcony, I'll
read something... but I will almost never ever do any handcrafting or
painting or sewing or knitting or baking cookies. So all the variety
of things you seem to be doing are things that I have to "force"
myself to do in order to provide a "I will bake cookies now wanna
join?", to provide a wide spectrum of things one can do. Maybe you
think "get a life!" but I quite like what I do and have absolutely no
problem with it for myself, except for not being able to naturally
provide a rich environment for my children. With my bf it's the same,
we LOVE computers and internet and we use this medium for many things
(being creative, reading and writing, contacting people, organising
things, working etc.) I used to think I was "addicted" to my computer
or to Internet, but all these texts about tv and video games not
being addictive for unschoolers I've read have made me realize that
this is just what I need, use and enjoy. Since we are unschooling we
do ask her each (rare) time we stand up from it if she wants to join
us cooking/cleaning/playing/reading/bathing/going out – I just don't
know if this is "enough". We do sit with her while she watches TV
(sometimes with sometimes without our laptops) now and she plays with
her own computer right next to us in our "office" so we are always
there to help and talk about it and someitmes play with her if she
wants. So I guess this feeling that it is not "enough" makes me feel
the urge to suggest more things which I wouldn't normally do, but
just to provide a richer spectrum of possibilities.
Any thoughts on that?
Johanna
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: solelokuai@...
Yeah but that's the thing! I know that I have to "do" it ("learning
by doing") – but then I sometimes need to know HOW to do it. For
instance, the suggestions question – of course I have tried to do it
all by myself for several weeks but I still don't get it, so I ask. I
try to keep in mind all the new things I know now and believe in, but
sometimes I don't know how to "do" it. I have observed that the more
I just do it, I internalize the new principles better then just by
memorizing or reading about it, obvious. But sometimes I need
concrete examples on how to do it – this might be examples of how you
would do it and somtimes concrete answers whether or not something is
"allowed".
-=-=-=-=-
I've never considered *things'* being "allowed" or "not allowed" in
unschooling---more of what's the better option at the time. Trust and
respect and patience, on the other hand, are kind of requirements! <bwg>
Do you get the feeling from us that some things are "allowed" or not?
Like what? And who would have the authority to allow it?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Yeah it is really confusing – it is actually both, difficult AND
confusing, and then again even more difficult because of the
confusions. For instance, the recent post of Talia (taliasafa) is
very confusing: I find (no offense, Talia, and maybe I'm wrong!),
that what she's doing is quite manipulative and I thought that these
things are exactly what we are not "allowed" to do, what unschoolers
wouldn't do, and then I'm huh?? I thought.... Just when I thought "I
got it", someone will write something that completely confuses me –
and sometimes I also get confused when I try to implement the ideas
of unschooling in real life and I get stuck in loops.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Some people are newer and give advice---maybe not *contrary* to what I
would give, but not exactly on the money---or not what I consider the
*best* option. If things are hectic here (and these past few weeks, the
conference was in Albuquerque---a lot of us were travelling), sometimes
it just floats out there without being questioned. Mostly
though---something not quite there yet WILL get questioned and
questioned aand questioned! <G> I don't remember Talia's suggestion.
Sorry.
It doesn't matter. What do YOU think would have been the best course of
action? Do you not think you handled it well? What could *you* have
done better? Do you have any more tools in your toolbox?
I find it kind of funny that you're struggling so much with this. You
seem to have really grasped the concept---I mean REALLY grasped it!
More than most people new to this---AND considering your Teutonic
heritage! <BWG>
-=-=-=-=-=-
Like hm, she's
watching TV right now. She's actually watching TV all day. When would
be the right moment to suggest other things to do? should I suggest
anything at all, she's happily watching TV all day, why should I
interrupt her? But maybe she's just watching tv for lack of better
things to do! But TV isn't bad, so nothing is "better". Ok, then I
should suggest something. I suggest something, she doesn't want to.
Hm – but maybe she wants to do something else. Should I suggest
another thing? But then I interrupt again. But maybe she needs more
imput! and so on and on – I find it confusing that on the one hand I
want to allow her to watch TV whenever and all the time she wants and
on the other hand I want to do things with her, but have no real
space to tell her because she is watching all day and I don't quite
know when to suggest anything and if I should suggest just one thing
or more or just leave her alone until she's bored even if this means
in five months. :-)
-=-=-=-=-
When Cameron first came home from school, I would had had to have set
fire to the house to get him to do anything other than watch tv or play
on the computer. He had NO interest in anything else. Now he's too busy
to join me in almost anything---we struggle to get time together any
more! Duncan hasn't needed that because he was never in school, but to
get Duncan to do *anything* all I have to do it go do it! <G>
He loves to bake, so I'll set the ingredients out the night before to
get to room temperature. That way he knows we'll be making a cake when
he wakes up the next morning. If I pull out the cards and art supplies,
he'll come in and join me at the table to make some ATCs. If I scatter
beads on the table, he'll join me as I string a few. If I start a
puzzle, he'll inevitably find that piece I'm been searching for for
hours! <G> He's always up for a game of chess---which he always wins!
(So far he still can't beat Ben. Cameron has recently won a few games
against him---he read a book with some chess tips! I'm a sure-fire
loser! <g>) Sometimes we leave the TV on while we do these things;
other times, we'll put a new or an long-lost CD in.
Sometimes I'll suggest a new movie---if I pop popcorn, he's THERE! The
night before, I'll often tell him I'm going somewhere the next
day---like to the library or Party City or the zoo. He always has the
option of staying or going (he's ten and comfortable staying home
alone). I can sweeten the pot by suggesting that we go out for lunch.
OH! Stopping by the Korean market can *always* get him to join me.
Sometimes we buy all it takes to make sushi---sometimes we just get
some new ramen and those itty bitty yoghurts and Pocki candies.
Oh--and PAINT brings everyone out of the woodwork! Open a can of paint
with enough paint brushes, and everyone wants to paint a wall! <G>
Isn't there a room in your house that could use a new paint job?
The biggest mistake would be to be afraid of the TV. Make it your
friend too! While she's watching, sit next to her. Knit. Or rub her
feet while she's watching. Ask her questions about the characters
(during a commercial or if you can pause the action with TiVo).
Suggestions should be made the day before---or at a time when it
doesn't appear that you are trying to pull her away. Maybe when you're
in the car. But LOTS of things can be done *while* she's
watching---like the beads or ATCs or baking. *YOU* go DO them. She'll
follow you or not, but *you* should have a good time doing things *you*
want to do. Don't do them *for* her or because you want to pull her
from the TV. Do them because *you* want to. She'll eventually feel your
excitement and join in.
-=-=-=-=-
It's just that I can't know if there might be some arguments for
*not* doing something which I "feel" is right in that moment. So I
when I asked if "postponing is allowed", I asked if there were any
(to me unknown) arguments against postponing.
-=-=-=-=-
Postponing things happens because we've run out of time or because
something else came up or because someone's not feeling well. Things
get postponed all the time because of real reasons. I think as long as
it's not arbitrary or punitive, it's just fine. It's a natural part of
being---of doing.
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe you would have
said oh nooo, we never ever postpone things because of X, and maybe
that X I just couldn't think of myself even though it seems obvious
after hearing about it – just as almost all of what unschooling is
about. Now I find everything so self evident and I feel like "duh,
why didn't I think of this before?" "how could I possibly think that
coercive methods could work even if I saw each day that they kinda
didn't?" :-) But before, I couldn't think of these things and "felt"
that my methods were the "best" one can do.
-=-=-=-=-
But as soon as you knew better, you started to DO better, right? <g>
The more you think about it, the less you'll "need" us! <G> It will ALL
make sense! After a while, when you see others make less than the best
choice (in your mind), you'll cringe! ANd you'll wonder why it's not so
evident to them too! <G> That's just part of the growth and
understanding. You'll want to surround yourself with more parents who
get it!
In some ways, making this shift is harder---being surrounded by people
who feel it's important to coerce children when you know a better way.
It's empowering, but it can make you angry too.
Keep doing it, Johanna---it really gets easier and easier! And you're
so much further along than you think!
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: solelokuai@...
Yeah but that's the thing! I know that I have to "do" it ("learning
by doing") – but then I sometimes need to know HOW to do it. For
instance, the suggestions question – of course I have tried to do it
all by myself for several weeks but I still don't get it, so I ask. I
try to keep in mind all the new things I know now and believe in, but
sometimes I don't know how to "do" it. I have observed that the more
I just do it, I internalize the new principles better then just by
memorizing or reading about it, obvious. But sometimes I need
concrete examples on how to do it – this might be examples of how you
would do it and somtimes concrete answers whether or not something is
"allowed".
-=-=-=-=-
I've never considered *things'* being "allowed" or "not allowed" in
unschooling---more of what's the better option at the time. Trust and
respect and patience, on the other hand, are kind of requirements! <bwg>
Do you get the feeling from us that some things are "allowed" or not?
Like what? And who would have the authority to allow it?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Yeah it is really confusing – it is actually both, difficult AND
confusing, and then again even more difficult because of the
confusions. For instance, the recent post of Talia (taliasafa) is
very confusing: I find (no offense, Talia, and maybe I'm wrong!),
that what she's doing is quite manipulative and I thought that these
things are exactly what we are not "allowed" to do, what unschoolers
wouldn't do, and then I'm huh?? I thought.... Just when I thought "I
got it", someone will write something that completely confuses me –
and sometimes I also get confused when I try to implement the ideas
of unschooling in real life and I get stuck in loops.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Some people are newer and give advice---maybe not *contrary* to what I
would give, but not exactly on the money---or not what I consider the
*best* option. If things are hectic here (and these past few weeks, the
conference was in Albuquerque---a lot of us were travelling), sometimes
it just floats out there without being questioned. Mostly
though---something not quite there yet WILL get questioned and
questioned aand questioned! <G> I don't remember Talia's suggestion.
Sorry.
It doesn't matter. What do YOU think would have been the best course of
action? Do you not think you handled it well? What could *you* have
done better? Do you have any more tools in your toolbox?
I find it kind of funny that you're struggling so much with this. You
seem to have really grasped the concept---I mean REALLY grasped it!
More than most people new to this---AND considering your Teutonic
heritage! <BWG>
-=-=-=-=-=-
Like hm, she's
watching TV right now. She's actually watching TV all day. When would
be the right moment to suggest other things to do? should I suggest
anything at all, she's happily watching TV all day, why should I
interrupt her? But maybe she's just watching tv for lack of better
things to do! But TV isn't bad, so nothing is "better". Ok, then I
should suggest something. I suggest something, she doesn't want to.
Hm – but maybe she wants to do something else. Should I suggest
another thing? But then I interrupt again. But maybe she needs more
imput! and so on and on – I find it confusing that on the one hand I
want to allow her to watch TV whenever and all the time she wants and
on the other hand I want to do things with her, but have no real
space to tell her because she is watching all day and I don't quite
know when to suggest anything and if I should suggest just one thing
or more or just leave her alone until she's bored even if this means
in five months. :-)
-=-=-=-=-
When Cameron first came home from school, I would had had to have set
fire to the house to get him to do anything other than watch tv or play
on the computer. He had NO interest in anything else. Now he's too busy
to join me in almost anything---we struggle to get time together any
more! Duncan hasn't needed that because he was never in school, but to
get Duncan to do *anything* all I have to do it go do it! <G>
He loves to bake, so I'll set the ingredients out the night before to
get to room temperature. That way he knows we'll be making a cake when
he wakes up the next morning. If I pull out the cards and art supplies,
he'll come in and join me at the table to make some ATCs. If I scatter
beads on the table, he'll join me as I string a few. If I start a
puzzle, he'll inevitably find that piece I'm been searching for for
hours! <G> He's always up for a game of chess---which he always wins!
(So far he still can't beat Ben. Cameron has recently won a few games
against him---he read a book with some chess tips! I'm a sure-fire
loser! <g>) Sometimes we leave the TV on while we do these things;
other times, we'll put a new or an long-lost CD in.
Sometimes I'll suggest a new movie---if I pop popcorn, he's THERE! The
night before, I'll often tell him I'm going somewhere the next
day---like to the library or Party City or the zoo. He always has the
option of staying or going (he's ten and comfortable staying home
alone). I can sweeten the pot by suggesting that we go out for lunch.
OH! Stopping by the Korean market can *always* get him to join me.
Sometimes we buy all it takes to make sushi---sometimes we just get
some new ramen and those itty bitty yoghurts and Pocki candies.
Oh--and PAINT brings everyone out of the woodwork! Open a can of paint
with enough paint brushes, and everyone wants to paint a wall! <G>
Isn't there a room in your house that could use a new paint job?
The biggest mistake would be to be afraid of the TV. Make it your
friend too! While she's watching, sit next to her. Knit. Or rub her
feet while she's watching. Ask her questions about the characters
(during a commercial or if you can pause the action with TiVo).
Suggestions should be made the day before---or at a time when it
doesn't appear that you are trying to pull her away. Maybe when you're
in the car. But LOTS of things can be done *while* she's
watching---like the beads or ATCs or baking. *YOU* go DO them. She'll
follow you or not, but *you* should have a good time doing things *you*
want to do. Don't do them *for* her or because you want to pull her
from the TV. Do them because *you* want to. She'll eventually feel your
excitement and join in.
-=-=-=-=-
It's just that I can't know if there might be some arguments for
*not* doing something which I "feel" is right in that moment. So I
when I asked if "postponing is allowed", I asked if there were any
(to me unknown) arguments against postponing.
-=-=-=-=-
Postponing things happens because we've run out of time or because
something else came up or because someone's not feeling well. Things
get postponed all the time because of real reasons. I think as long as
it's not arbitrary or punitive, it's just fine. It's a natural part of
being---of doing.
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe you would have
said oh nooo, we never ever postpone things because of X, and maybe
that X I just couldn't think of myself even though it seems obvious
after hearing about it – just as almost all of what unschooling is
about. Now I find everything so self evident and I feel like "duh,
why didn't I think of this before?" "how could I possibly think that
coercive methods could work even if I saw each day that they kinda
didn't?" :-) But before, I couldn't think of these things and "felt"
that my methods were the "best" one can do.
-=-=-=-=-
But as soon as you knew better, you started to DO better, right? <g>
The more you think about it, the less you'll "need" us! <G> It will ALL
make sense! After a while, when you see others make less than the best
choice (in your mind), you'll cringe! ANd you'll wonder why it's not so
evident to them too! <G> That's just part of the growth and
understanding. You'll want to surround yourself with more parents who
get it!
In some ways, making this shift is harder---being surrounded by people
who feel it's important to coerce children when you know a better way.
It's empowering, but it can make you angry too.
Keep doing it, Johanna---it really gets easier and easier! And you're
so much further along than you think!
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Deb
> So I guess this feeling that it is not "enough" makes me feelAny thoughts? Yeah - how about multiplayer online gaming? Or
> the urge to suggest more things which I wouldn't normally do, but
> just to provide a richer spectrum of possibilities.
>
> Any thoughts on that?
>
> Johanna
>
something like Neopets where you can send messages to each other and
buy stuff in each other's shops and all like that? Do you blog?
Would she like to try having her own website? There's a million
billion things online that can lead to other things and other things
and other things... DH saw some large inexpensive focusing lenses
(fresnel lenses) while surfing for something else. They were cheap
so he ordered 2. That led to playing with focal length of the lens
(and almost setting the dining table on fire!). One thing led to
another over time (long stretch, like two years or so) and now we
have a tidy little firepit area in the backyard for making small
campfires and toasting marshmallows. He wasn't looking for it, it
just happened.
What does SHE want/wish/desire to try? What have you "always wanted
to try"? Anything from A to Z - from "gee what's the difference
between regular tuna and Albacore tuna?" to "will Zinnias grow in a
window box?" (see I got that a-z in lol). Listen closely when you're
watching TV together and when she's on her laptop - what is she
searching on, commenting on, etc? Have a James Bond movie marathon
or start from James Bond and watch all of Sean Connery's movies or
get all the spin off type parodies of Bond movies (the old Casino
Royale, for instance) and maybe compare various secret
agent 'styles'. Or, just compare the different actors who played
Bond. (do you get the idea that my guys like Bond? I just like
the 'scenery' lol)
And, too, expand your whole household's world sometimes just for
fun. For instance, we've gotten to really enjoy fondue - I've liked
it for a long time but neither DH nor DS had ever tried it. So, we
looked up recipes and made some - now it's a favorite fun thing to
do with just us or with guests. DS also likes sushi because he asked
about it when we walked past a sushi restaurant next to his favorite
game shop. So, next time we planned on going out to eat, we went
there. We even one time went in search of raclette cheese because I
had had it on a trip to Switzerland and I just got a hankering for
it. So first I had to explain that it's a cheese AND a dish. Then we
tracked some down at a local Wild Oats store - they actually had
several varieties of raclette! Then we got the rest of the
ingredients and had ourselves a cheese feast with raclette and
boiled potatoes and other assorted 'toppings'. It was fun!
Be curious about life. Don't 'suggest' things just to get her to do
them but go for things you are interested in yourself and then offer
them. If you do nothing else but simply sit and watch people off
your balcony or check out a sunset (or a sunrise), that's something.
Try a different flavor of tea if you're a tea drinker. Go grocery
shopping at a store clear across town just to see what that store is
like. Make pancakes for breakfast and put more than just the
standard maple syrup on the table and see what happens (we typically
have chocolate chips, jam, syrup, and honey on the table for
pancakes; oatmeal has butter, milk, syrup, honey, sugar - brown &
white, chocolate chips, cinnamon or cinnamon chips, raisins,
pecans, ... whatever sounds interesting...)
So, yes, in some ways you are going to end up stretching yourself -
I never anticipated knowing much about James Bond, Pokemon or
Neopets but now I do. It's not a one way street - I've been
introduced to new things by DS and I've introduced new things to
him. I'd always wanted to be able to pick out a few tunes on the
piano, so I went after it - not to "get" DS to do it but simply
because I was interested. Now, DS will go in and sit and invent
musical pieces just for fun and I can play a couple pieces fairly
fluidly (and DH plays by ear). DS was interested in where words came
from, so I found him a website (put the link in his favorites) so
that he can look them up at will.
Go do something wild and crazy just for fun!
--Deb
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: solelokuai@...
I think this part is most difficult for me/us. Because if I could
choose what *I* want to do than it would mostly be chatting, surfing
on the internet, reading emails and actually I'm most of my free time
and work time at the computer and I really enjoy it. Some other times
I cook or clean the house, which I both enjoy and can ask her to
accompany me, rarely I will do some "gardening" at our balcony, I'll
read something... but I will almost never ever do any handcrafting or
painting or sewing or knitting or baking cookies. So all the variety
of things you seem to be doing are things that I have to "force"
myself to do in order to provide a "I will bake cookies now wanna
join?", to provide a wide spectrum of things one can do. Maybe you
think "get a life!" but I quite like what I do and have absolutely no
problem with it for myself, except for not being able to naturally
provide a rich environment for my children.
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe not "get a life!"---but what does your *daughter* like??? You may
actually have to step out of your comfort zone here.
You may find that she may have the same interests as you---and that
would be easy. But if she's a "crafter/artisan"-type, you may need to
make some changes---or at the very least, find her someone with the
same interests.
Cameron made my life easy in that he and I shares many of he same
interests: art, food, magic, music. But when he got into skateboards, I
had to do some fancy footwork! <g> It was hard to make myself pay $100
for new trucks and wheels (or whatever). I had no desire to cart him to
skate parks all over the state. His hobby did nothing for *me*. But it
was important to HIM. I swallowed my dislike, and I learned to
understand tricks and recognize big name skaters. We visited all the
skate parks and sent him to Woodward Skate Camp twice. I bought clothes
and boards and was on a first-name basis with the owners of the two
skate stores in town! I fed that passion!
Duncan's passion now is anime and manga and all things Japanese. How I
wish Joyce lived next door! <bwg> I could just close my eyes and wish
this phase away, but instead, I embrace his passion. We painted all the
major YuGiOH! characters on his walls and bought a YuGi bedspread. We
threw a huge YuGiOH! birthday party. We buy all the newest anime movies
and manga books. I supply endless reams of paper and pencils for
drawing his own manga characters. We eat Japanese often (not much of a
hardship for me! <G>). He has a real kimono and sandals. Ben's taking
him to their first Anime Convention soon.
These are not things we would choose for ourselves, but our children
aren't mini replicas of *us*. Often we need to step outside what *we*
would rather do and embrace what makes *them* tick. You'll learn a
lot---and you may even find a new passion yourself! <g>
The older they get, the more their passions may vary from what *you*
find interesting. Putting down their passions or dismissing them as
stupid or as not important is damaging. You really need to be
interested and interesting. Some things are harder than others to
stomach. But if you DO show interest in her passions, you will see the
do amazing things!
-=-=-=-=-
With my bf it's the same,
we LOVE computers and internet and we use this medium for many things
(being creative, reading and writing, contacting people, organising
things, working etc.) I used to think I was "addicted" to my computer
or to Internet, but all these texts about tv and video games not
being addictive for unschoolers I've read have made me realize that
this is just what I need, use and enjoy. Since we are unschooling we
do ask her each (rare) time we stand up from it if she wants to join
us cooking/cleaning/playing/reading/bathing/going out – I just don't
know if this is "enough". We do sit with her while she watches TV
(sometimes with sometimes without our laptops) now and she plays with
her own computer right next to us in our "office" so we are always
there to help and talk about it and someitmes play with her if she
wants. So I guess this feeling that it is not "enough" makes me feel
the urge to suggest more things which I wouldn't normally do, but
just to provide a richer spectrum of possibilities.
Any thoughts on that?
-=-=-=-
It's really good that you're comfortable with what makes you happy and
that you've quit seeing it as an addiction.
But what are your daughter's passions? I DO think that you need to
provide a "richer spectrum of possibilities." (nice way to put it!)
What does she love? It *may* be only the TV for now. If so, go with it.
But be ready to explore new territory as she grows older---and to step
out of your comfort zone!
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
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From: solelokuai@...
I think this part is most difficult for me/us. Because if I could
choose what *I* want to do than it would mostly be chatting, surfing
on the internet, reading emails and actually I'm most of my free time
and work time at the computer and I really enjoy it. Some other times
I cook or clean the house, which I both enjoy and can ask her to
accompany me, rarely I will do some "gardening" at our balcony, I'll
read something... but I will almost never ever do any handcrafting or
painting or sewing or knitting or baking cookies. So all the variety
of things you seem to be doing are things that I have to "force"
myself to do in order to provide a "I will bake cookies now wanna
join?", to provide a wide spectrum of things one can do. Maybe you
think "get a life!" but I quite like what I do and have absolutely no
problem with it for myself, except for not being able to naturally
provide a rich environment for my children.
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe not "get a life!"---but what does your *daughter* like??? You may
actually have to step out of your comfort zone here.
You may find that she may have the same interests as you---and that
would be easy. But if she's a "crafter/artisan"-type, you may need to
make some changes---or at the very least, find her someone with the
same interests.
Cameron made my life easy in that he and I shares many of he same
interests: art, food, magic, music. But when he got into skateboards, I
had to do some fancy footwork! <g> It was hard to make myself pay $100
for new trucks and wheels (or whatever). I had no desire to cart him to
skate parks all over the state. His hobby did nothing for *me*. But it
was important to HIM. I swallowed my dislike, and I learned to
understand tricks and recognize big name skaters. We visited all the
skate parks and sent him to Woodward Skate Camp twice. I bought clothes
and boards and was on a first-name basis with the owners of the two
skate stores in town! I fed that passion!
Duncan's passion now is anime and manga and all things Japanese. How I
wish Joyce lived next door! <bwg> I could just close my eyes and wish
this phase away, but instead, I embrace his passion. We painted all the
major YuGiOH! characters on his walls and bought a YuGi bedspread. We
threw a huge YuGiOH! birthday party. We buy all the newest anime movies
and manga books. I supply endless reams of paper and pencils for
drawing his own manga characters. We eat Japanese often (not much of a
hardship for me! <G>). He has a real kimono and sandals. Ben's taking
him to their first Anime Convention soon.
These are not things we would choose for ourselves, but our children
aren't mini replicas of *us*. Often we need to step outside what *we*
would rather do and embrace what makes *them* tick. You'll learn a
lot---and you may even find a new passion yourself! <g>
The older they get, the more their passions may vary from what *you*
find interesting. Putting down their passions or dismissing them as
stupid or as not important is damaging. You really need to be
interested and interesting. Some things are harder than others to
stomach. But if you DO show interest in her passions, you will see the
do amazing things!
-=-=-=-=-
With my bf it's the same,
we LOVE computers and internet and we use this medium for many things
(being creative, reading and writing, contacting people, organising
things, working etc.) I used to think I was "addicted" to my computer
or to Internet, but all these texts about tv and video games not
being addictive for unschoolers I've read have made me realize that
this is just what I need, use and enjoy. Since we are unschooling we
do ask her each (rare) time we stand up from it if she wants to join
us cooking/cleaning/playing/reading/bathing/going out – I just don't
know if this is "enough". We do sit with her while she watches TV
(sometimes with sometimes without our laptops) now and she plays with
her own computer right next to us in our "office" so we are always
there to help and talk about it and someitmes play with her if she
wants. So I guess this feeling that it is not "enough" makes me feel
the urge to suggest more things which I wouldn't normally do, but
just to provide a richer spectrum of possibilities.
Any thoughts on that?
-=-=-=-
It's really good that you're comfortable with what makes you happy and
that you've quit seeing it as an addiction.
But what are your daughter's passions? I DO think that you need to
provide a "richer spectrum of possibilities." (nice way to put it!)
What does she love? It *may* be only the TV for now. If so, go with it.
But be ready to explore new territory as she grows older---and to step
out of your comfort zone!
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
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Deb
--- In [email protected], Solé <solelokuai@...> wrote:
would I feel if a friend or significant other did/said this to me?"
Because there are no hard-and-fast anythings...sometimes saying "I'm
really tired tonight, let's watch a movie tonight and go to the park
tomorrow right after lunch" (And maybe write it down so you'll
remember - that often helped DS to know it was taken seriously when he
was younger) is fine because it's true; other times, you might need to
stop and re-examine things because you realize that you are 'always'
too tired for whatever your children want. There are no hard and fast
rules and there is no need for immediate reaction in most situations
(barring fire, flood, etc) - you can even say "Not tonight, I'm tired"
and then stop and reconsider and say "Know what? I think we can still
do that, I'll just sit over on the bench and watch while you play
instead of standing by the swings..."
--Deb
> But it could haveYou don't have to know beforehand...just take a breath and think "how
> been that you say something like, postponing is not ok because of
> such and such, and maybe this such and such would have convinced me
> so that I would "not allow myself" to do it anymore, you know what
>I
> mean? I can't know before hand if there are some "such and such" :-)
>
> Johanna
would I feel if a friend or significant other did/said this to me?"
Because there are no hard-and-fast anythings...sometimes saying "I'm
really tired tonight, let's watch a movie tonight and go to the park
tomorrow right after lunch" (And maybe write it down so you'll
remember - that often helped DS to know it was taken seriously when he
was younger) is fine because it's true; other times, you might need to
stop and re-examine things because you realize that you are 'always'
too tired for whatever your children want. There are no hard and fast
rules and there is no need for immediate reaction in most situations
(barring fire, flood, etc) - you can even say "Not tonight, I'm tired"
and then stop and reconsider and say "Know what? I think we can still
do that, I'll just sit over on the bench and watch while you play
instead of standing by the swings..."
--Deb
Solé
Hello Kelly, and Pam and Deb and all the others,
thank you so much for being so supportive and creative and and and :'-)
this shift, "allowing" MYSELF to be punitive before (although I
always thought this was disrespectful) and "not allowing" myself
anymore to do these things (although they don't come to my mind
anymore) anymore. I just used "allowing" for lack of a better word. I
meant "would an unschooler "do" this and if not why". I'll never use
it again, promise ;-) I have never felt you unschoolers "allow" some
things and some not. You just "do" some things and others "not". And
sometimes I'm confused if what I want to "do" goes along with my
newly acquired philosophy (I just think "hm, how would an unschooler
do this – I dunno! damnit, what should I do now err... " and mostly I
have to act quickly and just decide something and then it might come
out as postponing and then afterwards I still don't know if that was
ok or not – now I feel ok with it, btw). I guess I'm just impatient
and want to do it all "right" already o:-D
about how you would have done it or how it works in your family! It's
hard to find, look out for and use all those other tools when you are
used to only use 1 of them for 7 years!
anymore. I've been reading a lot at Sandra's and Joyce's, very
helpful to get rid of prejudice about "evil" TV.
you have time, I would be glad to read your thoughts on that.
inhabitants) or even region. I haven't found ANYONE unschooling in
Germany, HOMEschoolers are only 1000 in whole Germany and it might
well be that none of them is unschooling, because already
homeschooling is illegal and the ones who are tolerated by the state
are probably only tolerated because they show some kind of progress
in their studies and do tests and such. I guess there are others who
"unschool" with school as I'm doing it, but so far I haven't found
anyone. I came to unschooling because I read "The Continuum Concept"
– the ones who have read this around me either think it's crap or are
limiting what they learned to the baby time and carry their kids,
that's all. They think it's impossible to implement any of the ideas
presented in tcc, because it we just aren't living in tribes anymore.
Trying to find a way to do in spite of these arguments, I found
unschooling, and it appeals to me even more than tcc did. It will be
harder, but so far I have only confronted my best friend with
unschooling (and she doesn't get it :-( but she's very respectful and
she accepts I do it my way, we're still friends) and have avoided
telling anyone for fear of negative discussions which will make me
doubt again before I even get unschooling myself :-D.
Johanna
thank you so much for being so supportive and creative and and and :'-)
> I've never considered *things'* being "allowed" or "not allowed" inYeaaaaaaaaah I don't mean that so literally :-) Maybe this comes from
> unschooling---more of what's the better option at the time. Trust
> and respect and patience, on the other hand, are kind of
> requirements! <bwg> Do you get the feeling from us that some things
> are "allowed" or not? Like what? And who would have the authority
> to allow it?
this shift, "allowing" MYSELF to be punitive before (although I
always thought this was disrespectful) and "not allowing" myself
anymore to do these things (although they don't come to my mind
anymore) anymore. I just used "allowing" for lack of a better word. I
meant "would an unschooler "do" this and if not why". I'll never use
it again, promise ;-) I have never felt you unschoolers "allow" some
things and some not. You just "do" some things and others "not". And
sometimes I'm confused if what I want to "do" goes along with my
newly acquired philosophy (I just think "hm, how would an unschooler
do this – I dunno! damnit, what should I do now err... " and mostly I
have to act quickly and just decide something and then it might come
out as postponing and then afterwards I still don't know if that was
ok or not – now I feel ok with it, btw). I guess I'm just impatient
and want to do it all "right" already o:-D
> > I don't remember Talia's suggestion.That was just today! ("Re: Is 2 too young..")
> Sorry.
>
> It doesn't matter. What do YOU think would have been the bestThat's what I didn't know! But thank you for all what you told me
> course of
> action? Do you not think you handled it well? What could *you* have
> done better? Do you have any more tools in your toolbox?
>
about how you would have done it or how it works in your family! It's
hard to find, look out for and use all those other tools when you are
used to only use 1 of them for 7 years!
> I find it kind of funny that you're struggling so much with this. YouI find it funny too, now that you say it :-D
> seem to have really grasped the concept---I mean REALLY grasped it!
> More than most people new to this---AND considering your Teutonic
> heritage! <BWG>
>
>Yeah that has been working very well and I'm not afraid of the TV
> The biggest mistake would be to be afraid of the TV. Make it your
> friend too! While she's watching, sit next to her. Knit. Or rub her
> feet while she's watching. Ask her questions about the characters
> (during a commercial or if you can pause the action with TiVo).
>
anymore. I've been reading a lot at Sandra's and Joyce's, very
helpful to get rid of prejudice about "evil" TV.
> Suggestions should be made the day before---or at a time when itSuggestions the day before! What a great idea! Thank you for this.
> doesn't appear that you are trying to pull her away. Maybe when you're
> in the car.
> But LOTS of things can be done *while* she'sHm... I wrote a posting about my problem with this earlier today. If
> watching---like the beads or ATCs or baking. *YOU* go DO them. She'll
> follow you or not, but *you* should have a good time doing things
> *you*
> want to do. Don't do them *for* her or because you want to pull her
> from the TV. Do them because *you* want to. She'll eventually feel
> your
> excitement and join in.
>
you have time, I would be glad to read your thoughts on that.
>I'm probably the only one unschooling in my whole city (50000
> In some ways, making this shift is harder---being surrounded by people
> who feel it's important to coerce children when you know a better way.
> It's empowering, but it can make you angry too.
>
inhabitants) or even region. I haven't found ANYONE unschooling in
Germany, HOMEschoolers are only 1000 in whole Germany and it might
well be that none of them is unschooling, because already
homeschooling is illegal and the ones who are tolerated by the state
are probably only tolerated because they show some kind of progress
in their studies and do tests and such. I guess there are others who
"unschool" with school as I'm doing it, but so far I haven't found
anyone. I came to unschooling because I read "The Continuum Concept"
– the ones who have read this around me either think it's crap or are
limiting what they learned to the baby time and carry their kids,
that's all. They think it's impossible to implement any of the ideas
presented in tcc, because it we just aren't living in tribes anymore.
Trying to find a way to do in spite of these arguments, I found
unschooling, and it appeals to me even more than tcc did. It will be
harder, but so far I have only confronted my best friend with
unschooling (and she doesn't get it :-( but she's very respectful and
she accepts I do it my way, we're still friends) and have avoided
telling anyone for fear of negative discussions which will make me
doubt again before I even get unschooling myself :-D.
> Keep doing it, Johanna---it really gets easier and easier! And you'rethank you!
> so much further along than you think!
>
Johanna
Solé
Ah, Kelly, you were faster than I :-D
thank you, that was helpful again. I'm prepared to step out of my
comfort zone – I just didn't know how to suggest things :-P But you
and others have again given me many new tools to use, and I'm
watching tv with her and trying to find out what interests her. I
also know many things and I will actually just do some of these
things and be prepared for her not joining me if she doesn't want to :-)
She's interested in vampires. She loves all the tv shows on vampires
(pseudo-vampires) more than others and she likes to dress up as
vampire. Any ideas on that? LOL
Johanna
thank you, that was helpful again. I'm prepared to step out of my
comfort zone – I just didn't know how to suggest things :-P But you
and others have again given me many new tools to use, and I'm
watching tv with her and trying to find out what interests her. I
also know many things and I will actually just do some of these
things and be prepared for her not joining me if she doesn't want to :-)
She's interested in vampires. She loves all the tv shows on vampires
(pseudo-vampires) more than others and she likes to dress up as
vampire. Any ideas on that? LOL
Johanna
> Maybe not "get a life!"---but what does your *daughter* like??? You
> may
> actually have to step out of your comfort zone here.
>
Solé
>That's exactly what I wanted to know! :-) You're all so helpful
> There are no hard and fast
> rules and there is no need for immediate reaction in most situations
> (barring fire, flood, etc) - you can even say "Not tonight, I'm tired"
> and then stop and reconsider and say "Know what? I think we can still
> do that, I'll just sit over on the bench and watch while you play
> instead of standing by the swings..."
>
> --Deb
>
today, I'm amazed and moved! Thank you so much!
greetings
Johanna
Ginger Sabo
I have found that when my kids are really interested in a program their attention is on nothing else. For example, they don't have a toy in their hand, aren't fiddling with anything and their eyes are rivited on the screen even when their name is called. If they are a bit distracted from the tv, they have toys they interact with during parts with which they are bored. They tend to pick on each other (but I have 2). That is when I say something like: "hey, I'm going to bake some bread, anyone want to help?" or "It's a great day outside, want to go out and play with me?" or "I saw an advertisement for a cool museum, want to go?" This way it offers them a choice of things to do. If they say, "no, not now", I drop it and wait. When they are ready, they come back and ask to do whatever I had mentioned, or ask to do something else. There are days (while de-schooling) that they didn't even want to pause long enough to go to the bathroom. It's all ok. Their brains are still
working in there. Also, about the computer, how many of us need to actively pull ourselves away? How old are we? and Can we expect more from our kids? I remember getting bored of tv and going off and doing other things. I didn't have one in my home growing up, but we did at Grandma's house and it was on all the time. We even had one of our own if the grownups were watching something we didn't want to watch, we just went into the other room. It got boring, though. Just be patient and wait. Things take time. This also gives you the opportunity to just be with her, too.
Keep listening to her, and she will let you know what she needs. Sometimes they just need to know they have some control over their world - and when it is confirmed, they will be more willing to add variety, rather than just that 'prohibited' passtime.
In peace,
Ginger
Solé <solelokuai@...> wrote:
by doing") but then I sometimes need to know HOW to do it. For
instance, the suggestions question of course I have tried to do it
all by myself for several weeks but I still don't get it, so I ask. I
try to keep in mind all the new things I know now and believe in, but
sometimes I don't know how to "do" it. I have observed that the more
I just do it, I internalize the new principles better then just by
memorizing or reading about it, obvious. But sometimes I need
concrete examples on how to do it this might be examples of how you
would do it and somtimes concrete answers whether or not something is
"allowed".
confusing, and then again even more difficult because of the
confusions. For instance, the recent post of Talia (taliasafa) is
very confusing: I find (no offense, Talia, and maybe I'm wrong!),
that what she's doing is quite manipulative and I thought that these
things are exactly what we are not "allowed" to do, what unschoolers
wouldn't do, and then I'm huh?? I thought.... Just when I thought "I
got it", someone will write something that completely confuses me
and sometimes I also get confused when I try to implement the ideas
of unschooling in real life and I get stuck in loops. Like hm, she's
watching TV right now. She's actually watching TV all day. When would
be the right moment to suggest other things to do? should I suggest
anything at all, she's happily watching TV all day, why should I
interrupt her? But maybe she's just watching tv for lack of better
things to do! But TV isn't bad, so nothing is "better". Ok, then I
should suggest something. I suggest something, she doesn't want to.
Hm but maybe she wants to do something else. Should I suggest
another thing? But then I interrupt again. But maybe she needs more
imput! and so on and on I find it confusing that on the one hand I
want to allow her to watch TV whenever and all the time she wants and
on the other hand I want to do things with her, but have no real
space to tell her because she is watching all day and I don't quite
know when to suggest anything and if I should suggest just one thing
or more or just leave her alone until she's bored even if this means
in five months. :-)
Just give me examples of what has worked for you in similar
situations and how you "do" it :-) I'm just expecting the list to
answer the way it is always answering, giving examples of how you do
it :-) I'm very thankful for this, it helps a lot!
*not* doing something which I "feel" is right in that moment. So I
when I asked if "postponing is allowed", I asked if there were any
(to me unknown) arguments against postponing. Maybe you would have
said oh nooo, we never ever postpone things because of X, and maybe
that X I just couldn't think of myself even though it seems obvious
after hearing about it just as almost all of what unschooling is
about. Now I find everything so self evident and I feel like "duh,
why didn't I think of this before?" "how could I possibly think that
coercive methods could work even if I saw each day that they kinda
didn't?" :-) But before, I couldn't think of these things and "felt"
that my methods were the "best" one can do.
Johanna
Yahoo! Groups Links
Ginger
Kai(7) and Kade(5)
LOVE has impact.
"It's not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize, accept and celebrate those differences." - Audre Lorde
"Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties AND at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be." - Stockdale
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
working in there. Also, about the computer, how many of us need to actively pull ourselves away? How old are we? and Can we expect more from our kids? I remember getting bored of tv and going off and doing other things. I didn't have one in my home growing up, but we did at Grandma's house and it was on all the time. We even had one of our own if the grownups were watching something we didn't want to watch, we just went into the other room. It got boring, though. Just be patient and wait. Things take time. This also gives you the opportunity to just be with her, too.
Keep listening to her, and she will let you know what she needs. Sometimes they just need to know they have some control over their world - and when it is confirmed, they will be more willing to add variety, rather than just that 'prohibited' passtime.
In peace,
Ginger
Solé <solelokuai@...> wrote:
>Yeah but that's the thing! I know that I have to "do" it ("learning
> Keep in mind that we were also once where you are now! We *all*
> started
> somewhere!
>
> And it's not as if we all get it right every minute of every day. We
> still struggle too. But it gets easier and easier the more you DO it.
>
>
by doing") but then I sometimes need to know HOW to do it. For
instance, the suggestions question of course I have tried to do it
all by myself for several weeks but I still don't get it, so I ask. I
try to keep in mind all the new things I know now and believe in, but
sometimes I don't know how to "do" it. I have observed that the more
I just do it, I internalize the new principles better then just by
memorizing or reading about it, obvious. But sometimes I need
concrete examples on how to do it this might be examples of how you
would do it and somtimes concrete answers whether or not something is
"allowed".
>Yeah it is really confusing it is actually both, difficult AND
>
> I STILL think about it a LOT! I STILL try to make the right
> decisions.
>
> Is it *confusing*? Or just difficult?
>
> I struggled, but I wasn't confused. I just had a hard time making the
> adjustment. Giving up old ways versus the new. It was hard, but I
> wasn't confused. Is that the word you mean to use?
confusing, and then again even more difficult because of the
confusions. For instance, the recent post of Talia (taliasafa) is
very confusing: I find (no offense, Talia, and maybe I'm wrong!),
that what she's doing is quite manipulative and I thought that these
things are exactly what we are not "allowed" to do, what unschoolers
wouldn't do, and then I'm huh?? I thought.... Just when I thought "I
got it", someone will write something that completely confuses me
and sometimes I also get confused when I try to implement the ideas
of unschooling in real life and I get stuck in loops. Like hm, she's
watching TV right now. She's actually watching TV all day. When would
be the right moment to suggest other things to do? should I suggest
anything at all, she's happily watching TV all day, why should I
interrupt her? But maybe she's just watching tv for lack of better
things to do! But TV isn't bad, so nothing is "better". Ok, then I
should suggest something. I suggest something, she doesn't want to.
Hm but maybe she wants to do something else. Should I suggest
another thing? But then I interrupt again. But maybe she needs more
imput! and so on and on I find it confusing that on the one hand I
want to allow her to watch TV whenever and all the time she wants and
on the other hand I want to do things with her, but have no real
space to tell her because she is watching all day and I don't quite
know when to suggest anything and if I should suggest just one thing
or more or just leave her alone until she's bored even if this means
in five months. :-)
>Of course I'm aware of this I don't know how anyone couldn't be.
> We can give you examples of what has worked for us in a similar
> situation, but we're not you. Our kids aren't your kids. Every
> situation is different.
Just give me examples of what has worked for you in similar
situations and how you "do" it :-) I'm just expecting the list to
answer the way it is always answering, giving examples of how you do
it :-) I'm very thankful for this, it helps a lot!
>It's just that I can't know if there might be some arguments for
> Could you clarify what you're asking for? Maybe *I* am confused!
>
*not* doing something which I "feel" is right in that moment. So I
when I asked if "postponing is allowed", I asked if there were any
(to me unknown) arguments against postponing. Maybe you would have
said oh nooo, we never ever postpone things because of X, and maybe
that X I just couldn't think of myself even though it seems obvious
after hearing about it just as almost all of what unschooling is
about. Now I find everything so self evident and I feel like "duh,
why didn't I think of this before?" "how could I possibly think that
coercive methods could work even if I saw each day that they kinda
didn't?" :-) But before, I couldn't think of these things and "felt"
that my methods were the "best" one can do.
Johanna
Yahoo! Groups Links
Ginger
Kai(7) and Kade(5)
LOVE has impact.
"It's not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize, accept and celebrate those differences." - Audre Lorde
"Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties AND at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be." - Stockdale
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dana_burdick
>but I will almost never ever do any handcrafting orThis is why making concrete suggestions is so tricky. You might
>painting or sewing or knitting or baking cookies.
think that forcing yourself to do these things (or other things that
people suggest) is doing unschooling `right'. So many things in our
culture are about doing it `right', so it's very easy to slip into
that mindset. I believe that being genuine in what you do -- in
whatever you do -- is the most important. Your daughter will smell
something in those cookies a mile away, if she senses that her mom,
who is not a cookie maker, is trying to bake up something that looks
like someone else's life.
When I was working so hard to get the unschooling thing, I think the
absolute best thing that helped me was actively seeking, finding and
holding JOY in my heart. Well, that certainly isn't very concrete,
is it? Quite honestly, I'm more of a, just-the-facts-mum kind of
person, so even uttering the word gives me twinges of
embarrassment. But, whenever I put joy as THE priority, things
really opened up for my kids, my relationship with my husband and
the whole unschooling experience.
Opening up to joy is hard in some ways, thrilling in others and
definitely freeing. On one hand it seems like you are doing
something wrong to enjoy yourself so much. On the other hand, you
experience the same thrill that you get say, when you are on top of
a roller coater just about to go down. In a way, I think that it is
more comfortable to hold our fears close to us. Letting go seems
unreasonable - dangerous. We MUST protect ourselves from the
threatening world, right? But when we finally find a way to let go,
the world is not as threatening/dangerous as we otherwise thought
and what is left is empowerment. The feeling is quite heady.
The other thing that helped me along with the unschooling process
was asking `why' a lot. Why is he watching TV? Why is he still
watching TV? Why am I worrying about him watching TV? Why don't I
get off this couch and stop worrying and get on with my own
interests? Why do I fear some things and not others?
When I seriously pondered these questions, I began to see better
what my children were experiencing and learning. The why's go even
deeper than this, but I'll leave that for another post.
>So I guess this feeling that it is not "enough" makes me feelI believe that the richer spectrum comes when you begin to be open
>the urge to suggest more things which I wouldn't normally do, but
>just to provide a richer spectrum of possibilities.
to the possibilities and not force the possibilities. Does that
make sense? When apprehension, fear and worry are present, the
potential for things to blossom are reduced.
-Dana
Deb
--- In [email protected], Solé <solelokuai@...>
wrote:
necessarily, whatever her tolerance level is) - look for some of the
campy stuff too - I don't know what access you have to videos/DVDs
that are easily accessible in the States - maybe check imdb.com and
type in 'vampire' in the search then browse through and see what
might be available at the local video place. George Hamilton and
Eddie Murphy both did really campy silly vampire movies. You might
check out vampire bats (which really do suck blood, mainly from
cattle in the Southwestern US as far as the ones I know of, there
are probably others). One interesting tidbit is that they use an
anticoagulant to keep the blood flowing. Many cardiac patients are
on anticoagulants to keep from developing blood clots. Oh, and you
are in Germany...any chance you can plan a trip to some "haunted
castles" or even a big family vacation to Transylvania. There are
lots of books on vampires - from kid type fun ones to Anne Rice's
vampire series. Maybe explore fake blood, maybe go give blood at a
blood drive, maybe look up a cool recipe for cherry filled cupcakes
that look like they're bleeding when you bite them...And, don't
forget to check with her as to what it is about vampires she finds
fascinating - the spooky stuff, the "immortality", the costumes,
whatever. Any and all of that can lead in all sorts of directions.
--Deb
wrote:
>Sure - have a vampire film festival (not anything too gory
> She's interested in vampires. She loves all the tv shows on
>vampires
> (pseudo-vampires) more than others and she likes to dress up as
> vampire. Any ideas on that? LOL
necessarily, whatever her tolerance level is) - look for some of the
campy stuff too - I don't know what access you have to videos/DVDs
that are easily accessible in the States - maybe check imdb.com and
type in 'vampire' in the search then browse through and see what
might be available at the local video place. George Hamilton and
Eddie Murphy both did really campy silly vampire movies. You might
check out vampire bats (which really do suck blood, mainly from
cattle in the Southwestern US as far as the ones I know of, there
are probably others). One interesting tidbit is that they use an
anticoagulant to keep the blood flowing. Many cardiac patients are
on anticoagulants to keep from developing blood clots. Oh, and you
are in Germany...any chance you can plan a trip to some "haunted
castles" or even a big family vacation to Transylvania. There are
lots of books on vampires - from kid type fun ones to Anne Rice's
vampire series. Maybe explore fake blood, maybe go give blood at a
blood drive, maybe look up a cool recipe for cherry filled cupcakes
that look like they're bleeding when you bite them...And, don't
forget to check with her as to what it is about vampires she finds
fascinating - the spooky stuff, the "immortality", the costumes,
whatever. Any and all of that can lead in all sorts of directions.
--Deb
kaikade
================
Maybe not "get a life!"---but what does your *daughter* like??? You
may actually have to step out of your comfort zone here. You may
find that she may have the same interests as you---and that would be
easy. But if she's a "crafter/artisan"-type, you may need to make
some changes---or at the very least, find her someone with the same
interests.
============
This is what I meant with my suggestion of other things. I know my
boys really like to knead the bread or make cookies or pizza. They
LOVE squishing things in their hands. Play dough is good too - we
make ours so that they have the tactile relationship there too.
Finding out what they want to do and balancing it with what I want
to do is the key. While they are watching or playing on the
computer, I'm there with them but am not always doing what they are
doing. Kai asked me to fold the laundry while in the computer room
with him. He wanted me near, but didn't want me involved in his
computer stuff. :)
Kade is happiest when allowed to play by himself or have you
verbalize something to go along with his playing. But let him run
around, cause he's not going to stop for you. AND you wouldn't stay
on his 'path' anyway, so you might just find out you are about to
be 'eaten by the crocodiles when you step there'. When he's ready
to watch tv, he loves to cuddle - and it means he's exhausted and
needs to re-charge. This is a great time to ask if he's like to
read a book or watch tv. His cue is just sitting on me!
Being an advocate for the kids. This is what I try to do. I often
times have to work on being interested in what they are interested
in. Then I just try to use it in my creativity, then I get excited
about it... more.
Hope this all helps.
Ginger
Maybe not "get a life!"---but what does your *daughter* like??? You
may actually have to step out of your comfort zone here. You may
find that she may have the same interests as you---and that would be
easy. But if she's a "crafter/artisan"-type, you may need to make
some changes---or at the very least, find her someone with the same
interests.
============
This is what I meant with my suggestion of other things. I know my
boys really like to knead the bread or make cookies or pizza. They
LOVE squishing things in their hands. Play dough is good too - we
make ours so that they have the tactile relationship there too.
Finding out what they want to do and balancing it with what I want
to do is the key. While they are watching or playing on the
computer, I'm there with them but am not always doing what they are
doing. Kai asked me to fold the laundry while in the computer room
with him. He wanted me near, but didn't want me involved in his
computer stuff. :)
Kade is happiest when allowed to play by himself or have you
verbalize something to go along with his playing. But let him run
around, cause he's not going to stop for you. AND you wouldn't stay
on his 'path' anyway, so you might just find out you are about to
be 'eaten by the crocodiles when you step there'. When he's ready
to watch tv, he loves to cuddle - and it means he's exhausted and
needs to re-charge. This is a great time to ask if he's like to
read a book or watch tv. His cue is just sitting on me!
Being an advocate for the kids. This is what I try to do. I often
times have to work on being interested in what they are interested
in. Then I just try to use it in my creativity, then I get excited
about it... more.
Hope this all helps.
Ginger
Deb
Oh also, as I was driving home at noon yesterday (I took a half
vacation day so my guys and I could go to the Big E fair - it's an all-
New England state fair and it's HUGE), I was pondering if I knew of
other related vampire-ish stuff and I remembered the old silent Lon
Chaney type Nosferatu movie - very different images used - ugly
misshapen 'vampire' in Nosferatu vs. suave, caped 'Count' in more
modern versions. Maybe even rent the movie version of the Broadway
play (I saw "Dracula" on Broadway just after Frank Langella left the
production to do the movie)
--Deb
vacation day so my guys and I could go to the Big E fair - it's an all-
New England state fair and it's HUGE), I was pondering if I knew of
other related vampire-ish stuff and I remembered the old silent Lon
Chaney type Nosferatu movie - very different images used - ugly
misshapen 'vampire' in Nosferatu vs. suave, caped 'Count' in more
modern versions. Maybe even rent the movie version of the Broadway
play (I saw "Dracula" on Broadway just after Frank Langella left the
production to do the movie)
--Deb
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: solelokuai@...
I'm probably the only one unschooling in my whole city (50000
inhabitants) or even region. I haven't found ANYONE unschooling in
Germany, HOMEschoolers are only 1000 in whole Germany and it might
well be that none of them is unschooling, because already
homeschooling is illegal and the ones who are tolerated by the state
are probably only tolerated because they show some kind of progress
in their studies and do tests and such. I guess there are others who
"unschool" with school as I'm doing it, but so far I haven't found
anyone. I came to unschooling because I read "The Continuum Concept"
– the ones who have read this around me either think it's crap or are
limiting what they learned to the baby time and carry their kids,
that's all. They think it's impossible to implement any of the ideas
presented in tcc, because it we just aren't living in tribes anymore.
Trying to find a way to do in spite of these arguments, I found
unschooling, and it appeals to me even more than tcc did. It will be
harder, but so far I have only confronted my best friend with
unschooling (and she doesn't get it :-( but she's very respectful and
she accepts I do it my way, we're still friends) and have avoided
telling anyone for fear of negative discussions which will make me
doubt again before I even get unschooling myself :-D.
-=-=-=-=-
There's actually a mom in Germany who was working on starting a group
there.
Maybe she found herself in hot water because of the laws. I can't find
her anywhere now. I've asked Sandra: maybe she'll chime in soon with a
name or address. I know that info used to be on Sandra's site. I can't
find it now though. If she has it, I'll forward the info on.
I sent my old au pair (in Bodenheim---Stadtteil Mainz) a copy of Rue's
book and a sling for her new baby. <g> I don't think she used the
sling---those Kinderwagen are so nice! <G> And I doubt she read the
book. She thinks I'm a bit nuts. <g> Plus, her spoken english is so
much better than her written/reading of it---books are hard for her.
But we have talked about it on the phone and when she's visited. So
there *ARE* Germans who have heard of it!
You might want to consider finding homeschooling *Americans* in the
military. They *are* allowed to homeschool. A few might even be
unschooling---although quietly. What city/region are you in? Maybe we
could help you find a few who are underground?
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: solelokuai@...
I'm probably the only one unschooling in my whole city (50000
inhabitants) or even region. I haven't found ANYONE unschooling in
Germany, HOMEschoolers are only 1000 in whole Germany and it might
well be that none of them is unschooling, because already
homeschooling is illegal and the ones who are tolerated by the state
are probably only tolerated because they show some kind of progress
in their studies and do tests and such. I guess there are others who
"unschool" with school as I'm doing it, but so far I haven't found
anyone. I came to unschooling because I read "The Continuum Concept"
– the ones who have read this around me either think it's crap or are
limiting what they learned to the baby time and carry their kids,
that's all. They think it's impossible to implement any of the ideas
presented in tcc, because it we just aren't living in tribes anymore.
Trying to find a way to do in spite of these arguments, I found
unschooling, and it appeals to me even more than tcc did. It will be
harder, but so far I have only confronted my best friend with
unschooling (and she doesn't get it :-( but she's very respectful and
she accepts I do it my way, we're still friends) and have avoided
telling anyone for fear of negative discussions which will make me
doubt again before I even get unschooling myself :-D.
-=-=-=-=-
There's actually a mom in Germany who was working on starting a group
there.
Maybe she found herself in hot water because of the laws. I can't find
her anywhere now. I've asked Sandra: maybe she'll chime in soon with a
name or address. I know that info used to be on Sandra's site. I can't
find it now though. If she has it, I'll forward the info on.
I sent my old au pair (in Bodenheim---Stadtteil Mainz) a copy of Rue's
book and a sling for her new baby. <g> I don't think she used the
sling---those Kinderwagen are so nice! <G> And I doubt she read the
book. She thinks I'm a bit nuts. <g> Plus, her spoken english is so
much better than her written/reading of it---books are hard for her.
But we have talked about it on the phone and when she's visited. So
there *ARE* Germans who have heard of it!
You might want to consider finding homeschooling *Americans* in the
military. They *are* allowed to homeschool. A few might even be
unschooling---although quietly. What city/region are you in? Maybe we
could help you find a few who are underground?
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: solelokuai@...
She's interested in vampires. She loves all the tv shows on vampires
(pseudo-vampires) more than others and she likes to dress up as
vampire. Any ideas on that? LOL
-=-=-=-
I'm assuming you've watched all the old vampire movies.
How about Stephen King's books and movies? Salem's Lot?
And The Lost Boys? Funny and scary--the rice and noodles???? YUCK!!!!
Anne Rice? The queen of vampires! Interview with a Vampire--books and
movie?
Does she know all the things that ward off vampires? Or attract them?
Cameron had a fascination with/fear of vampires for a while too. We
had "holy water" and garlic and crosses and ...um...mmm... dwarf
hamsters <G> that kept the vampires from coming through his windows. He
was young. His hamsters were vicious! <G> Towards vampires. <bwg>
Lots of good make-up available for vampires/goths. OH! There's even a
strange society of people who think they really ARE vampires. Weird
shit out there! <G>
LOTS of cool things that are/can be linked to vampires! That's a FUN
interest!!!
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: solelokuai@...
She's interested in vampires. She loves all the tv shows on vampires
(pseudo-vampires) more than others and she likes to dress up as
vampire. Any ideas on that? LOL
-=-=-=-
I'm assuming you've watched all the old vampire movies.
How about Stephen King's books and movies? Salem's Lot?
And The Lost Boys? Funny and scary--the rice and noodles???? YUCK!!!!
Anne Rice? The queen of vampires! Interview with a Vampire--books and
movie?
Does she know all the things that ward off vampires? Or attract them?
Cameron had a fascination with/fear of vampires for a while too. We
had "holy water" and garlic and crosses and ...um...mmm... dwarf
hamsters <G> that kept the vampires from coming through his windows. He
was young. His hamsters were vicious! <G> Towards vampires. <bwg>
Lots of good make-up available for vampires/goths. OH! There's even a
strange society of people who think they really ARE vampires. Weird
shit out there! <G>
LOTS of cool things that are/can be linked to vampires! That's a FUN
interest!!!
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Michelle Leifur Reid
karin
I'm assuming you've watched all the old vampire movies.
There is a great Japanese anime called Karin that is about vampires. It's
pretty funny as far as vampire anime goes (there are others as well). We've
only found it in Japanese and in Japanese with English subtitles.
Anne Rice? The queen of vampires! Interview with a Vampire--books and
that she had given it all up for her religion and had a huge garage sale in
her New Orleans home where she got rid of most of her gothy-vampire-esque
clothes, furnishings, and decorations. Her website has changed drastically
and now has Ave Maria playing in the background. Her photo looks fresh and
alive and she's let her hair go gray rather than continuing to color
black. Her most current book is about Jesus. I'll miss her books and
persona. :(
Michelle - mother to a "gothy-vampire-esque" child
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm assuming you've watched all the old vampire movies.
There is a great Japanese anime called Karin that is about vampires. It's
pretty funny as far as vampire anime goes (there are others as well). We've
only found it in Japanese and in Japanese with English subtitles.
Anne Rice? The queen of vampires! Interview with a Vampire--books and
> movie?She isn't writing vampire books anymore. The last I heard about Rice was
that she had given it all up for her religion and had a huge garage sale in
her New Orleans home where she got rid of most of her gothy-vampire-esque
clothes, furnishings, and decorations. Her website has changed drastically
and now has Ave Maria playing in the background. Her photo looks fresh and
alive and she's let her hair go gray rather than continuing to color
black. Her most current book is about Jesus. I'll miss her books and
persona. :(
Michelle - mother to a "gothy-vampire-esque" child
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: pamperedmichelle@...
She isn't writing vampire books anymore. The last I heard about Rice
was
that she had given it all up for her religion and had a huge garage
sale in
her New Orleans home where she got rid of most of her
gothy-vampire-esque
clothes, furnishings, and decorations. Her website has changed
drastically
and now has Ave Maria playing in the background. Her photo looks fresh
and
alive and she's let her hair go gray rather than continuing to color
black. Her most current book is about Jesus. I'll miss her books and
persona. :(
-=-=
Bummer. But the books and movie still exist!
Oh--and Buffy the Vampire Slayer series. I'm sure it's available on
netflix!
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: pamperedmichelle@...
She isn't writing vampire books anymore. The last I heard about Rice
was
that she had given it all up for her religion and had a huge garage
sale in
her New Orleans home where she got rid of most of her
gothy-vampire-esque
clothes, furnishings, and decorations. Her website has changed
drastically
and now has Ave Maria playing in the background. Her photo looks fresh
and
alive and she's let her hair go gray rather than continuing to color
black. Her most current book is about Jesus. I'll miss her books and
persona. :(
-=-=
Bummer. But the books and movie still exist!
Oh--and Buffy the Vampire Slayer series. I'm sure it's available on
netflix!
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Deb
--- In [email protected], "dana_burdick"
<DanaBurdick@...> wrote:
directly at something too hard or the flash residue obscures it. If
you look casually or slightly sideways, you can see clearly. The
same with this. If you are spending all the time looking for this
one 'right' thing, you miss all the peripheral cool stuff that is
around. When you stop and start looking for something "in this
general area, let's see what we find", all sorts of ideas and
opportunities pop up.
--Deb
<DanaBurdick@...> wrote:
>Kind of like after you get a flash picture taken, you can't look
> I believe that the richer spectrum comes when you begin to be open
> to the possibilities and not force the possibilities. Does that
> make sense? When apprehension, fear and worry are present, the
> potential for things to blossom are reduced.
>
> -Dana
>
directly at something too hard or the flash residue obscures it. If
you look casually or slightly sideways, you can see clearly. The
same with this. If you are spending all the time looking for this
one 'right' thing, you miss all the peripheral cool stuff that is
around. When you stop and start looking for something "in this
general area, let's see what we find", all sorts of ideas and
opportunities pop up.
--Deb
Solé
LOL that's so funny :-)
I'm in Leipzig (Region "Sachsen"). We just moved from Mainz!!!!
Incredible – how small the world is. I've also started a group, no
one has joined yet though. I haven't found any groups. I found
"unschooling.info" which is reserved from Germans, and they have a
lot of info on "living without school" and essays and so on. They
focus on homeschooling though. It's still a minority.
But I'm ok with you guys "around me", remember I'm at my computer
almost all the time anyway :-D
Btw, after your (the list's) suggestions we searched for a very old
Atari Console of my bf's yesterday and we played old computer games :-
D I even got to look things up on google and wikipedia because we
didn't have manuals for the games, yay!
greetings
Johanna
Am 27.09.2006 um 20:46 schrieb kbcdlovejo@...:
I'm in Leipzig (Region "Sachsen"). We just moved from Mainz!!!!
Incredible – how small the world is. I've also started a group, no
one has joined yet though. I haven't found any groups. I found
"unschooling.info" which is reserved from Germans, and they have a
lot of info on "living without school" and essays and so on. They
focus on homeschooling though. It's still a minority.
But I'm ok with you guys "around me", remember I'm at my computer
almost all the time anyway :-D
Btw, after your (the list's) suggestions we searched for a very old
Atari Console of my bf's yesterday and we played old computer games :-
D I even got to look things up on google and wikipedia because we
didn't have manuals for the games, yay!
greetings
Johanna
Am 27.09.2006 um 20:46 schrieb kbcdlovejo@...:
> What city/region are you in? Maybe we
> could help you find a few who are underground?
Solé
>No, I -- quite haven't looked out of my "box" yet. And I'm afraid of
> I'm assuming you've watched all the old vampire movies.
>
the scaryness of these movies. I haven't watched them? She's 7! She's
afraid of little thieves in The Sims (PC-Game) who steals with an
fantastic little bag... But maybe we could try to find something not
very scary....
> How about Stephen King's books and movies? Salem's Lot?no
>
> And The Lost Boys? Funny and scary--the rice and noodles???? YUCK!!!!no
>
> Anne Rice? The queen of vampires! Interview with a Vampire--books andno
> movie?
>
> Does she know all the things that ward off vampires? Or attract them?no!
>
> Cameron had a fascination with/fear of vampires for a while too. Weyeah that we have, she loves!
> had "holy water" and garlic and crosses and ...um...mmm... dwarf
> hamsters <G> that kept the vampires from coming through his
> windows. He
> was young. His hamsters were vicious! <G> Towards vampires. <bwg>
>
> Lots of good make-up available for vampires/goths.
> OH! There's even adidn't know!
> strange society of people who think they really ARE vampires. Weird
> shit out there! <G>
>
> LOTS of cool things that are/can be linked to vampires! That's a FUNthank you!
> interest!!!
>
I'm starting to grasp the concept! yay!
Johanna
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: solelokuai@...
LOL that's so funny :-)
I'm in Leipzig (Region "Sachsen"). We just moved from Mainz!!!!
-=-=-=-
We used to live in Bodenheim---that's how we met our au pair. She was
our neighbor and wanted to come to the US with us. Au pair made that
easy!
My father was in the army stationed in Mainz. We lived in ---oh! on
the other side of Mainz. I can't remember the name of the town
now.---Wackenheim! But I was really little.
I spent my junior year (13 months) in college in Goettingen,
Prien-am-Chiensee, an in Wien. Then I married Ben. He was stationed in
Wiesbaden at Lindsey Air Station. Cameron was born in Wiesbaden. We
were there three years.
-=-=-=-=-
Incredible – how small the world is. I've also started a group, no
one has joined yet though. I haven't found any groups. I found
"unschooling.info" which is reserved from Germans, and they have a
lot of info on "living without school" and essays and so on. They
focus on homeschooling though. It's still a minority.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Well, I think I'd focus on homeschooling too---at least publically.
That way you wouldn't lose your children! Unschool quiety, but promote
homeschooling.
-=-=-=-=-
Btw, after your (the list's) suggestions we searched for a very old
Atari Console of my bf's yesterday and we played old computer games :-
D I even got to look things up on google and wikipedia because we
didn't have ma
-=-=-=-
COOL. See--it's not so hard! <g>
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: solelokuai@...
LOL that's so funny :-)
I'm in Leipzig (Region "Sachsen"). We just moved from Mainz!!!!
-=-=-=-
We used to live in Bodenheim---that's how we met our au pair. She was
our neighbor and wanted to come to the US with us. Au pair made that
easy!
My father was in the army stationed in Mainz. We lived in ---oh! on
the other side of Mainz. I can't remember the name of the town
now.---Wackenheim! But I was really little.
I spent my junior year (13 months) in college in Goettingen,
Prien-am-Chiensee, an in Wien. Then I married Ben. He was stationed in
Wiesbaden at Lindsey Air Station. Cameron was born in Wiesbaden. We
were there three years.
-=-=-=-=-
Incredible – how small the world is. I've also started a group, no
one has joined yet though. I haven't found any groups. I found
"unschooling.info" which is reserved from Germans, and they have a
lot of info on "living without school" and essays and so on. They
focus on homeschooling though. It's still a minority.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Well, I think I'd focus on homeschooling too---at least publically.
That way you wouldn't lose your children! Unschool quiety, but promote
homeschooling.
-=-=-=-=-
Btw, after your (the list's) suggestions we searched for a very old
Atari Console of my bf's yesterday and we played old computer games :-
D I even got to look things up on google and wikipedia because we
didn't have ma
-=-=-=-
COOL. See--it's not so hard! <g>
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Mara
There is another yahoo list called HomeschoolD, about
Germans homeschooling around the world. It is not too
active but there are some within Germany as well that
might be unschooling,maybe I'll ask next time -
Mara
--- kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Germans homeschooling around the world. It is not too
active but there are some within Germany as well that
might be unschooling,maybe I'll ask next time -
Mara
--- kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
> -----Original Message-----________________________________________________________________________
> From: solelokuai@...
>
> I'm probably the only one unschooling in my whole
> city (50000
> inhabitants) or even region. I haven't found ANYONE
> unschooling in
> Germany, HOMEschoolers are only 1000 in whole
> Germany and it might
> well be that none of them is unschooling, because
> already
> homeschooling is illegal and the ones who are
> tolerated by the state
> are probably only tolerated because they show some
> kind of progress
> in their studies and do tests and such. I guess
> there are others who
> "unschool" with school as I'm doing it, but so far I
> haven't found
> anyone. I came to unschooling because I read "The
> Continuum Concept"
> â the ones who have read this around me either
> think it's crap or are
> limiting what they learned to the baby time and
> carry their kids,
> that's all. They think it's impossible to implement
> any of the ideas
> presented in tcc, because it we just aren't living
> in tribes anymore.
> Trying to find a way to do in spite of these
> arguments, I found
> unschooling, and it appeals to me even more than tcc
> did. It will be
> harder, but so far I have only confronted my best
> friend with
> unschooling (and she doesn't get it :-( but she's
> very respectful and
> she accepts I do it my way, we're still friends) and
> have avoided
> telling anyone for fear of negative discussions
> which will make me
> doubt again before I even get unschooling myself
> :-D.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> There's actually a mom in Germany who was working on
> starting a group
> there.
>
> Maybe she found herself in hot water because of the
> laws. I can't find
> her anywhere now. I've asked Sandra: maybe she'll
> chime in soon with a
> name or address. I know that info used to be on
> Sandra's site. I can't
> find it now though. If she has it, I'll forward the
> info on.
>
> I sent my old au pair (in Bodenheim---Stadtteil
> Mainz) a copy of Rue's
> book and a sling for her new baby. <g> I don't think
> she used the
> sling---those Kinderwagen are so nice! <G> And I
> doubt she read the
> book. She thinks I'm a bit nuts. <g> Plus, her
> spoken english is so
> much better than her written/reading of it---books
> are hard for her.
> But we have talked about it on the phone and when
> she's visited. So
> there *ARE* Germans who have heard of it!
>
> You might want to consider finding homeschooling
> *Americans* in the
> military. They *are* allowed to homeschool. A few
> might even be
> unschooling---although quietly. What city/region are
> you in? Maybe we
> could help you find a few who are underground?
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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