earthmothergypsy

My dh and I got to talking today as we did our normal Saturday family
house cleaning about family living being the same as community
living. This meaning that it takes EVERYONE in the group doing their
part to make it all work. This means that no one should walk away
from a job that needs done, nor should they leave a mess/work for
someone else or the community or family will break down and it won't
work.
This is what triggered our conversation:
6 yr old DD finished breakfast and left her cereal bowl on the table-
with milk still in it (which then was dumped all over the table as
her little sister 2 yr old, played in it). This left double work for
me (or anyone else that came along to clean up), because not only did
the cereal bowl need carried to the kitchen, but now milk had to be
cleaned up too.

Our feeling is that everyone should pick up after themselves and not
make more work for others. Taking responsibility for themselves and
their actions. This way the family/community runs smoothly. This
also allows more time to be together as a family (not mom and dad
constantly busy cleaning up after everyone).

So, how would you handle this?
To me, it really isn't fair for one person to be doing all the work.
Also, what are the kids learning if they aren't taking responsibility
for themselves? That someone will always be there to do it, so it
isn't a big deal???? What a shocker it would be for them when there
is no one to do it for them later in life! I have seen this happen!
Are we really doing right as parents by not teaching them to be
responsible for themselves? What about as a part of society as a
whole? Are they learning in a way that they can be part of a
community? OR are they learning to be part of the "me" society (they
are the only ones important and community isn't)?
Any thoughts?

Hope that makes sense. I don't always choose the best "wording"
sometimes, so please forgive me that. These are just our ponderings
today. :)

~Amanda

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/10/2004 7:41:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
earthmothergypsy@... writes:

So, how would you handle this? <<<<<

I would have joyfully cleaned it up and wouldn't have whined about it.



>>>To me, it really isn't fair for one person to be doing all the work. <<<<

But it IS fair to have slave labor?


>>>>Also, what are the kids learning if they aren't taking responsibility
for themselves? <<<<<

She was taking responsibility for herself----just not the bowl and the
cleanliness of your kitchen. There was probably something else that attracted her
attention.


>>>> That someone will always be there to do it, so it
isn't a big deal???? What a shocker it would be for them when there
is no one to do it for them later in life! I have seen this happen! <<<<<

You have really seen this behavior from children of MINDFUL parents? REALLY?
How many of us do you know? MY children have watched me model kindness and g
enerosity----and you know what? They're kind and generous! I give *much* of
my time cleaning up after them; in exchange, they go out of their way to be
kind and generous to me---and even clean up after *me*!

It didn't happen all at once. At first *I* was the only one who did
anything. Cameron would walk out as I labored in the yard and ask whether I needed
help. I'd say only if he *wanted* to help. He had a hard time understanding
this: all his friends had chores----lots of them. I said I was willing to wait
until HE *wanted* to help. He didn't want to. I smiled and thanked him for
asking and told him to have a good time with his friends.

One day he just came out and helped. We haven't looked back. He helps ALL
the time. I come home to a spotless kitchen. He picks up the den. He unloads
the dishwasher. He scoops poop. He carries groceries. His room is the neatest
room in the house.

He has a pet/house-sitting business. He's so responsible you can't
imagine---you probably really can't imagine if you think this has to be forced! <g> He
gets up @ 6:30 to feed the dogs, he brings in the mail and paper, he waters
the plants, he cleans the house, he washes the dishes, he washes and changes
the sheets, and he writes a note about how it all went.

He's not the exception. He's the rule among these children who have had this
behavior modelled for them.


>>>>Are we really doing right as parents by not teaching them to be
responsible for themselves? What about as a part of society as a
whole? Are they learning in a way that they can be part of a
community? OR are they learning to be part of the "me" society (they
are the only ones important and community isn't)?
Any thoughts? <<<<

All these examples are of grown children whose parents MADE them clean up
after themselves. They figure that if *they* didn't make the mess, *they* don't
have to clean it up. I'd rather have a grown child who is happy to clean up
because it is nicer that way, because he *wants* to, because he wants a nice
environment.


>>>Our feeling is that everyone should pick up after themselves and not
make more work for others. Taking responsibility for themselves and
their actions. This way the family/community runs smoothly. This
also allows more time to be together as a family (not mom and dad
constantly busy cleaning up after everyone). <<<<


You're not being realistic. Community doesn't work like that (mostly because
people have been made to clean up after themselves). There are those that
don't contribute to the mess, those that don't contribute to the clean-up,
those that make the messes, those that do the cleaning up----and everything in
between. The best thing we can do for our children is to joyfully clean up and
show them that we value a clean space/world. They will follow our example.
Forcing clean-up will only make the cleaner resentful if he's not doing it of
his own free will. *You* are already are feeling resentful for having to clean
up after her---what are you modeling? Really?

I was mowing the grass earlier this week, thinking of this very situation.
Our neighbors have a lawn care service that comes weekly. He (the lawn care
guy) pointed out that didn't I have a teenage son and why wasn't he mowing the
lawn? I said I *liked* mowing the lawn.

Many of Cameron's friends are forced to help around the house because "it's
*their* house too and they need to take responsibility of *their* house." At
the same time, they told that they aren't allowed to do such-and-such "not
while you're living under *MY* roof." Talk about mixed signals!

What you're suggesting is really opposite from what actually works. We have
living, breathing proof of this. Come to the conference. See for yourself!

~Kelly






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/10/2004 8:25:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

All these examples are of grown children whose parents MADE them clean up
after themselves. They figure that if *they* didn't make the mess, *they*
don't
have to clean it up. I'd rather have a grown child who is happy to clean up
because it is nicer that way, because he *wants* to, because he wants a nice

environment. <<<<

Replying to my own post! <g>

I'd rather have a grown child who will clean up after *someone else* as well
just because he thinks it would be good and nice and right. Some people
can't clean up after themselves. Some are too tired or too busy or too engrossed
in something.

Modeled kindness goes along way.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan

>>What a shocker it would be for them when there
is no one to do it for them later in life! I have seen this happen!>>>

I often think about this when the subject of cleaning up after oneself
arises. I have a friend, who was the youngest of 7 children. She wasn't
expected to clean up after herself or help do anything around the house.
When she was 17, and had a job her mom would iron all of her clothes for her
and make her lunch.
I asked her what she thought about how she grew up and for her opinion
on chores and such. Her response kind of surprised me. She wished that her
mom had made her do her own laundry and clean the house. She said that when
she went to college out of state she was terrified, because she didn't know
how to do anything. She used to call her mom, crying because she felt so
insecure. Her mom always did the cleaning and care of the house in front of
her, but it was up to my friend whether she wanted to participate or not.
Most of the time she chose not to, and in the end didn't pick up on how
things were done.
I don't require that my kids do chores or pick up after themselves, but
what happens when they are ready to move out. Maybe being homeschooled,
which my friend was not, will make the difference here.

AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: earthmothergypsy [mailto:earthmothergypsy@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 6:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Being part of a family/community


My dh and I got to talking today as we did our normal Saturday family
house cleaning about family living being the same as community
living. This meaning that it takes EVERYONE in the group doing their
part to make it all work. This means that no one should walk away
from a job that needs done, nor should they leave a mess/work for
someone else or the community or family will break down and it won't
work.
This is what triggered our conversation:
6 yr old DD finished breakfast and left her cereal bowl on the table-
with milk still in it (which then was dumped all over the table as
her little sister 2 yr old, played in it). This left double work for
me (or anyone else that came along to clean up), because not only did
the cereal bowl need carried to the kitchen, but now milk had to be
cleaned up too.

Our feeling is that everyone should pick up after themselves and not
make more work for others. Taking responsibility for themselves and
their actions. This way the family/community runs smoothly. This
also allows more time to be together as a family (not mom and dad
constantly busy cleaning up after everyone).

So, how would you handle this?
To me, it really isn't fair for one person to be doing all the work.
Also, what are the kids learning if they aren't taking responsibility
for themselves? That someone will always be there to do it, so it
isn't a big deal???? What a shocker it would be for them when there
is no one to do it for them later in life! I have seen this happen!
Are we really doing right as parents by not teaching them to be
responsible for themselves? What about as a part of society as a
whole? Are they learning in a way that they can be part of a
community? OR are they learning to be part of the "me" society (they
are the only ones important and community isn't)?
Any thoughts?

Hope that makes sense. I don't always choose the best "wording"
sometimes, so please forgive me that. These are just our ponderings
today. :)

~Amanda


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan

>>>To me, it really isn't fair for one person to be doing all the work.
<<<<

***But it IS fair to have slave labor?***

It's funny you should mention slave labor, because sometimes I feel like I'm
the slave in this house. We live on a farm and the flies will drive you
batty if you don't make sure that the counters and tables are clean. This
doesn't go well with the theory that I have of allowing my little ones to
choose their own eating schedules and not requiring them to pick up after
themselves. I also don't have a designated eating area so their free to eat
wherever and whenever they please, which is how it should be. The only
downfall is that I feel like hired help sometimes that doesn't get paid.
Now, I don't think they intend to make me feel this way, but it does and I
try my hardest not to be a martyr about it. I'll admit though sometimes I
just get tired of walking around the house picking up drinkables, Popsicle
sticks, broccoli, spilled milk etc... My kids are young and maybe they will
eventually want to help me out, but what if they don't? The only light I
can see at the end of the tunnel is that they may grow up and not have the
same hang-ups I have in regards to cleaning the house. Maybe they will find
cleaning the house a positive thing not something they dread doing, like I
do. I think of my mother every time I clean and believe me it's not nice
thoughts. I am trying really hard to not send that feeling to my kids, so I
hum and sing a lot while I clean just to keep my mind off it.

Hope I'm doing the right thing.

AnnMarie
Crazy singing cleaning mom.
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 8:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Being part of a family/community


In a message dated 7/10/2004 7:41:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
earthmothergypsy@... writes:

So, how would you handle this? <<<<<

I would have joyfully cleaned it up and wouldn't have whined about it.



>>>To me, it really isn't fair for one person to be doing all the work.
<<<<

But it IS fair to have slave labor?


>>>>Also, what are the kids learning if they aren't taking responsibility
for themselves? <<<<<

She was taking responsibility for herself----just not the bowl and the
cleanliness of your kitchen. There was probably something else that
attracted her
attention.


>>>> That someone will always be there to do it, so it
isn't a big deal???? What a shocker it would be for them when there
is no one to do it for them later in life! I have seen this happen!
<<<<<

You have really seen this behavior from children of MINDFUL parents?
REALLY?
How many of us do you know? MY children have watched me model kindness
and g
enerosity----and you know what? They're kind and generous! I give *much*
of
my time cleaning up after them; in exchange, they go out of their way to
be
kind and generous to me---and even clean up after *me*!

It didn't happen all at once. At first *I* was the only one who did
anything. Cameron would walk out as I labored in the yard and ask whether
I needed
help. I'd say only if he *wanted* to help. He had a hard time
understanding
this: all his friends had chores----lots of them. I said I was willing to
wait
until HE *wanted* to help. He didn't want to. I smiled and thanked him
for
asking and told him to have a good time with his friends.

One day he just came out and helped. We haven't looked back. He helps ALL
the time. I come home to a spotless kitchen. He picks up the den. He
unloads
the dishwasher. He scoops poop. He carries groceries. His room is the
neatest
room in the house.

He has a pet/house-sitting business. He's so responsible you can't
imagine---you probably really can't imagine if you think this has to be
forced! <g> He
gets up @ 6:30 to feed the dogs, he brings in the mail and paper, he
waters
the plants, he cleans the house, he washes the dishes, he washes and
changes
the sheets, and he writes a note about how it all went.

He's not the exception. He's the rule among these children who have had
this
behavior modelled for them.


>>>>Are we really doing right as parents by not teaching them to be
responsible for themselves? What about as a part of society as a
whole? Are they learning in a way that they can be part of a
community? OR are they learning to be part of the "me" society (they
are the only ones important and community isn't)?
Any thoughts? <<<<

All these examples are of grown children whose parents MADE them clean up
after themselves. They figure that if *they* didn't make the mess, *they*
don't
have to clean it up. I'd rather have a grown child who is happy to clean
up
because it is nicer that way, because he *wants* to, because he wants a
nice
environment.


>>>Our feeling is that everyone should pick up after themselves and not
make more work for others. Taking responsibility for themselves and
their actions. This way the family/community runs smoothly. This
also allows more time to be together as a family (not mom and dad
constantly busy cleaning up after everyone). <<<<


You're not being realistic. Community doesn't work like that (mostly
because
people have been made to clean up after themselves). There are those that
don't contribute to the mess, those that don't contribute to the clean-up,
those that make the messes, those that do the cleaning up----and
everything in
between. The best thing we can do for our children is to joyfully clean up
and
show them that we value a clean space/world. They will follow our example.
Forcing clean-up will only make the cleaner resentful if he's not doing it
of
his own free will. *You* are already are feeling resentful for having to
clean
up after her---what are you modeling? Really?

I was mowing the grass earlier this week, thinking of this very
situation.
Our neighbors have a lawn care service that comes weekly. He (the lawn
care
guy) pointed out that didn't I have a teenage son and why wasn't he
mowing the
lawn? I said I *liked* mowing the lawn.

Many of Cameron's friends are forced to help around the house because
"it's
*their* house too and they need to take responsibility of *their* house."
At
the same time, they told that they aren't allowed to do such-and-such
"not
while you're living under *MY* roof." Talk about mixed signals!

What you're suggesting is really opposite from what actually works. We
have
living, breathing proof of this. Come to the conference. See for
yourself!

~Kelly






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/10/2004 10:45:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gmcontractinginc@... writes:

I don't require that my kids do chores or pick up after themselves, but
what happens when they are ready to move out. Maybe being homeschooled,
which my friend was not, will make the difference here.<<<


Maybe it's a case of respecting and of being respected. Being a doormat
won't result in respect. Neither will being a drill sargent. Maybe being
mindfully parented will make the difference you're looking for?

Forcing him to do it will result in his avoiding it and in his resentment.

Doing it yourself, but grumbling while you do it, and being resentful that
he's not helping will result in a child who won't do it because it looks like a
pain in the butt---and who wants to be miserable? Avoid it instead.


Cleaning what you want cleaned and doing it joyfully because you want to do
it will result in a child's feeling good about his "space" and in his wanting
to clean joyfully as well.

We promise.

~Kelly






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan

>>Doing it yourself, but grumbling while you do it, and being resentful that
he's not helping will result in a child who won't do it because it looks
like a
pain in the butt---and who wants to be miserable? Avoid it instead.>>>

This is why I started humming and singing while I clean, because there was a
time when I was the martyr. Now I try to make a game out of cleaning, but a
game I only play myself. I don't expect them to clean with me anymore and
that has freed me from the martyr feelings.
I also started thinking about how I would feel if I was really working
hard on something and someone came and stopped me just to put it in a bin.
Now I ask if they are done with things instead of saying, "o.k. now it's
pick up time".
I have come so far with this. Sometimes I just get tired (there are 6
of us here) and don't know enough to just let it go for a day. I will have
to work on that.

AnnMarie


-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 11:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Being part of a family/community


In a message dated 7/10/2004 10:45:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gmcontractinginc@... writes:

I don't require that my kids do chores or pick up after themselves, but
what happens when they are ready to move out. Maybe being homeschooled,
which my friend was not, will make the difference here.<<<


Maybe it's a case of respecting and of being respected. Being a doormat
won't result in respect. Neither will being a drill sargent. Maybe being
mindfully parented will make the difference you're looking for?

Forcing him to do it will result in his avoiding it and in his
resentment.

Doing it yourself, but grumbling while you do it, and being resentful that
he's not helping will result in a child who won't do it because it looks
like a
pain in the butt---and who wants to be miserable? Avoid it instead.


Cleaning what you want cleaned and doing it joyfully because you want to
do
it will result in a child's feeling good about his "space" and in his
wanting
to clean joyfully as well.

We promise.

~Kelly






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/10/2004 11:48:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gmcontractinginc@... writes:

My kids are young and maybe they will
eventually want to help me out, but what if they don't? <<<<<

Ah, But what if they DO? <g> And joyfully, to boot???


>>>> The only light I
can see at the end of the tunnel is that they may grow up and not have the
same hang-ups I have in regards to cleaning the house.<<<<

What are your hang-ups?


>>>Maybe they will find
cleaning the house a positive thing not something they dread doing, like I
do. <<<<

Can *you* change the way *you* look at housecleaning?


>>>> I think of my mother every time I clean and believe me it's not nice
thoughts.<<<

Why do you think bad thoughts? What did she do?


>>> I am trying really hard to not send that feeling to my kids, so I
hum and sing a lot while I clean just to keep my mind off it.<<<<

If you change your mindset, it will send out even better vibes! While you're
folding clothes, marvel at how much they've grown---remember how *tiny*
those three month old t-shirts were? Now look how big they are!

While you're cooking, think about how they'll gobble up what you're
making....and be grateful for THEM and for the food you're cutting up.

While cleaning the toilets, be glad that they're out of diapers!

While gardening, be happy you have such a great yard for them to play in.

While cleaning their rooms, be grateful that they're still with you.

Your own mindset can make ALL the difference!

~Kelly







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<< I asked her what she thought about how she grew up and for her
opinion
on chores and such. Her response kind of surprised me. She wished that her
mom had made her do her own laundry and clean the house. She said that when
she went to college out of state she was terrified, because she didn't know
how to do anything. >>>

There is this myth that since we don't force our children to do anything in
the household arena, that they therefore never do anything, or learn how to
do anything.

The universal experience of long term Unschoolers is the opposite.

Robyn L. Coburn

---
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Fetteroll

on 7/10/04 11:18 PM, kbcdlovejo@... at kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> Cleaning what you want cleaned and doing it joyfully because you want to do
> it will result in a child's feeling good about his "space" and in his wanting
> to clean joyfully as well.

And don't be afraid to ask for help!

(And don't forget to thank them as you would a friend when they do help,
even if you don't think they did as much as they could.)

Ask if they'd like to keep you company so you can talk.

I think the problem for the girl who didn't know how to do all that stuff is
that her mom probably didn't ask her. I don't recall my mom asking if I'd
like to do things with her. I think I remember asking if I could help cook
occasionally and she did show me then. But if she'd asked, like she might
ask if I wanted to watch a TV show with her, it's communicating "I enjoy
spending time with you." And as a side effect, kids pick up how to do things
around the house.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 7/10/04 11:15 PM, G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan at
gmcontractinginc@... wrote:

> We live on a farm and the flies will drive you
> batty if you don't make sure that the counters and tables are clean. This
> doesn't go well with the theory that I have of allowing my little ones to
> choose their own eating schedules and not requiring them to pick up after
> themselves.

Sometimes there are honest to goodness practical reasons for doing things
certain ways! You should explain those!

But too often the reasons for doing or not doing something is because it's
convenient or inconvenient for the parents. Parents will say they dont want
kids eating in front of the TV because they can't be trusted not to spill.
And that's -- well it's not trusting them for one thing ;-) -- and it's
putting stuff ahead of people. Much better to have a place where it doesn't
feel like a disaster if they do have an accident!

Real flies and real ants -- not the fear that eating outside the kitchen
will draw ants because that's what our moms said -- are real reasons to keep
food in a particular place and keep the counters clean. Flies do carry
diseases.

> I'll admit though sometimes I
> just get tired of walking around the house picking up drinkables, Popsicle
> sticks, broccoli, spilled milk etc...

An "Oh, this needs cleaned up before the flies come," gets the message
across that it's just something we do in life. When they know what they're
supposed to do, and are just concentrating on other things, a single word
will help remind them. (How to Talk So Kids Will Listen has a lot of good
scenarios and ideas in it.) You can start picking things up and ask for
someone to pick up one part or ask someone to get a sponge. You'll
eventually get a feel for what you can suggest that is likely to feel to
them like helping you as opposed to you telling them what to do.

Joyce

earthmothergypsy

First off, Kelly, you seem to think you know me well enough to say
things like the below quote:

"*You* are already are feeling resentful for having to clean up
after her---what are you modeling? Really?"

Let me tell you, you don't and are very wrong.
I never said I was resentful at all for having to pick up after my dd
or my family. I was asking questions about how others handle these
situations. I clean up after my whole family all the time with no
complaint. DH and I usually do a deep clean on Saturday and the kids
just jump in and help because they want too. No one forces them to
do anything. They want to be part of the fun! I don't even ask dh
to help, he too jumps in and helps because he wishes too. :) We
usually put on some music and dance, laugh and make merry all while
we put the house into a clean order again.

I do understand a youngin that has his own business, because my kids
are the same way. See I have grown kids as well as teens in the
house too. My 15 yr old ds raises and sells registered Netherland
Dwarf rabbits. He also does small engine repair and is very into
racing. Every venture he has decided to try or go into, he has
worked to finance himself, because he had the drive to do it. He is
the one that loves animals so much that he keeps adding things to our
farm and he freely helps with all the farm chores. (The girls help
too because they find it fun to feed the animals and help with their
care. We all love animals!) When my kids have a desire, they find a
way to fill that desire. That is the fun of unschooling! And the
freedom of it too. :)

"I was mowing the grass earlier this week, thinking of this very
situation. Our neighbors have a lawn care service that comes weekly.
He (the lawn care guy) pointed out that didn't I have a teenage son
and why wasn't he mowing the lawn? I said I *liked* mowing the lawn."

Me too! It is theraputic. :)

"Many of Cameron's friends are forced to help around the house
because "it's *their* house too and they need to take responsibility
of *their* house." At the same time, they told that they aren't
allowed to do such-and-such "not while you're living under *MY*
roof." Talk about mixed signals!"

No kidding! I want my kids to take pride in the home they live in
and am always thankful when they choose to help keep it clean. I can
say the only time I could see the words {"not while you're living
under *MY* roof"} used is if it were about using drugs or drinking
alcohol. This is NOT a line I can ever see us using with our kids.

As for the conference, finances would not allow any such luxury. DH
only gets a small disability check monthly. We also couldn't leave
the animals with no care, nor taking the time away from our kids.

~Amanda

earthmothergypsy

"I'd rather have a grown child who will clean up after *someone
else* as well just because he thinks it would be good and nice and
right. Some people can't clean up after themselves. Some are too
tired or too busy or too engrossed in something.
>
> Modeled kindness goes along way.
>
> ~Kelly


Very true! And I am very happy to have children that love to help
others (without any prompting-just because they want too). :)

~Amanda

earthmothergypsy

AnnMarie,

This is what I am talking about. The child that didn't learn these
things and then are in the world with no skills and scared. These
same kids ALWAYS say they wish they had been made to do it and learn.

This happens even when a parent tries to show them how to so things
too! My oldest was this way. He wasn't made to do chores or
anything-it was all done for him, or it wasn't done at all because he
wouldn't do it! I would mention from time to time that he would need
to know how to do this or that and if he wanted to know how, I would
show him. Especially if I was heading off to do one of these "jobs"
like washing clothes. Well, he never chose to learn and when he got
on his own, it was a shocker! He had no clue and it was really scary
for him. He too said to me that he wished I had taught him how to
do ---whatever--- and I laughed at him and told him that I tried and
he wasn't open to learning. lol!!!

This is just something that worries me. Though it can happen whether
they are forced to learn it or not.

~Amanda



--- In [email protected], "G&M Contracting Inc.,
Kenneth Gillilan" <gmcontractinginc@v...> wrote:
> >>What a shocker it would be for them when there
> is no one to do it for them later in life! I have seen this happen!
>>>
>
> I often think about this when the subject of cleaning up after
oneself
> arises. I have a friend, who was the youngest of 7 children. She
wasn't
> expected to clean up after herself or help do anything around the
house.
> When she was 17, and had a job her mom would iron all of her
clothes for her
> and make her lunch.
> I asked her what she thought about how she grew up and for her
opinion
> on chores and such. Her response kind of surprised me. She wished
that her
> mom had made her do her own laundry and clean the house. She said
that when
> she went to college out of state she was terrified, because she
didn't know
> how to do anything. She used to call her mom, crying because she
felt so
> insecure. Her mom always did the cleaning and care of the house in
front of
> her, but it was up to my friend whether she wanted to participate
or not.
> Most of the time she chose not to, and in the end didn't pick up on
how
> things were done.
> I don't require that my kids do chores or pick up after
themselves, but
> what happens when they are ready to move out. Maybe being
homeschooled,
> which my friend was not, will make the difference here.
>
> AnnMarie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: earthmothergypsy [mailto:earthmothergypsy@h...]
> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 6:44 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Being part of a family/community
>
>
> My dh and I got to talking today as we did our normal Saturday
family
> house cleaning about family living being the same as community
> living. This meaning that it takes EVERYONE in the group doing
their
> part to make it all work. This means that no one should walk away
> from a job that needs done, nor should they leave a mess/work for
> someone else or the community or family will break down and it
won't
> work.
> This is what triggered our conversation:
> 6 yr old DD finished breakfast and left her cereal bowl on the
table-
> with milk still in it (which then was dumped all over the table as
> her little sister 2 yr old, played in it). This left double work
for
> me (or anyone else that came along to clean up), because not only
did
> the cereal bowl need carried to the kitchen, but now milk had to
be
> cleaned up too.
>
> Our feeling is that everyone should pick up after themselves and
not
> make more work for others. Taking responsibility for themselves
and
> their actions. This way the family/community runs smoothly. This
> also allows more time to be together as a family (not mom and dad
> constantly busy cleaning up after everyone).
>
> So, how would you handle this?
> To me, it really isn't fair for one person to be doing all the
work.
> Also, what are the kids learning if they aren't taking
responsibility
> for themselves? That someone will always be there to do it, so it
> isn't a big deal???? What a shocker it would be for them when
there
> is no one to do it for them later in life! I have seen this
happen!
> Are we really doing right as parents by not teaching them to be
> responsible for themselves? What about as a part of society as a
> whole? Are they learning in a way that they can be part of a
> community? OR are they learning to be part of the "me" society
(they
> are the only ones important and community isn't)?
> Any thoughts?
>
> Hope that makes sense. I don't always choose the best "wording"
> sometimes, so please forgive me that. These are just our
ponderings
> today. :)
>
> ~Amanda
>
>
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earthmothergypsy

I agree with Joyce here too. There are just some situations that
have to be taken care of but for the right reasons. Once kids know
and really understand why something has to be done or done a certain
way, they are glad to help. They just need to know why.

We too have the farm set up and things that HAVE to be done. The
kids all agreed to the farm and work that came with it before we went
on this adventure, so they knew they would have to help out. Had
they not agreed, then we would not have proceeded with it. As long
as I explain the "whys" we don't have any problems. :) I just
forget to do this in a rush sometimes, and then I only have me to
blame when something isn't done right and I have extra work to do
because of it. lol!

~Amanda

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...>
wrote:
> on 7/10/04 11:15 PM, G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan at
> gmcontractinginc@v... wrote:
>
> > We live on a farm and the flies will drive you
> > batty if you don't make sure that the counters and tables are
clean. This
> > doesn't go well with the theory that I have of allowing my little
ones to
> > choose their own eating schedules and not requiring them to pick
up after
> > themselves.
>
> Sometimes there are honest to goodness practical reasons for doing
things
> certain ways! You should explain those!
>
> But too often the reasons for doing or not doing something is
because it's
> convenient or inconvenient for the parents. Parents will say they
dont want
> kids eating in front of the TV because they can't be trusted not to
spill.
> And that's -- well it's not trusting them for one thing ;-) -- and
it's
> putting stuff ahead of people. Much better to have a place where it
doesn't
> feel like a disaster if they do have an accident!
>
> Real flies and real ants -- not the fear that eating outside the
kitchen
> will draw ants because that's what our moms said -- are real
reasons to keep
> food in a particular place and keep the counters clean. Flies do
carry
> diseases.
>
> > I'll admit though sometimes I
> > just get tired of walking around the house picking up drinkables,
Popsicle
> > sticks, broccoli, spilled milk etc...
>
> An "Oh, this needs cleaned up before the flies come," gets the
message
> across that it's just something we do in life. When they know what
they're
> supposed to do, and are just concentrating on other things, a
single word
> will help remind them. (How to Talk So Kids Will Listen has a lot
of good
> scenarios and ideas in it.) You can start picking things up and ask
for
> someone to pick up one part or ask someone to get a sponge. You'll
> eventually get a feel for what you can suggest that is likely to
feel to
> them like helping you as opposed to you telling them what to do.
>
> Joyce

Ren Allen

"The
kids all agreed to the farm and work that came with it before we went
on this adventure, so they knew they would have to help out."

Anytime an adult gets a child's ok on something that requires work,
they should understand that a child does not have the life
experience to project into the long term. As long as that is
understood, and the adults realize they can't possibly fathom a long-
term commitment, then there won't be resentment build up when the
kids seem to not be keeping their end of the agreement.

Pets and farms fall under this topic I believe, as do other things.
A child will promise things to get what they want, but the adults
need to understand the lack of experience and how it will factor
into the whole picture.

Ren

earthmothergypsy

Ren,

Too true. The older kids were in the mid to late teens when we
started with farming. They did have a good idea and we made sure
they REALLY understood what it meant. Of course we are always open
and willing to make changes if something isn't working. A family
talk around the dinner table usually gives us all time to talk
through what is needed. We didn't want resentment nor did we want
animals suffering, so it tooks us awhile to get started. :)
It has been so very worth it too!

And you are right, pets and farm or any commitment like this fall in
the same catagory and should always been thought through completely.
Ultimately, a venture should never be taken on unless the parent is
willing to take over, because kids loose interest real fast
sometimes.

~Amanda

-- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@n...> wrote:
> "The
> kids all agreed to the farm and work that came with it before we
went
> on this adventure, so they knew they would have to help out."
>
> Anytime an adult gets a child's ok on something that requires work,
> they should understand that a child does not have the life
> experience to project into the long term. As long as that is
> understood, and the adults realize they can't possibly fathom a
long-
> term commitment, then there won't be resentment build up when the
> kids seem to not be keeping their end of the agreement.
>
> Pets and farms fall under this topic I believe, as do other things.
> A child will promise things to get what they want, but the adults
> need to understand the lack of experience and how it will factor
> into the whole picture.
>
> Ren

Valerie

>
> I often think about this when the subject of cleaning up after
oneself arises. I have a friend, who was the youngest of 7
children. She wasn't expected to clean up after herself or help do
anything around the house.

***** I was never required to do housework of any kind but my mom
kept the house clean, meals cooked, etc. In other words, she modeled
for me. When I left home, I learned how to keep my house clean and
cook because I wanted to eat well and live in a clean house.

> When she was 17, and had a job her mom would iron all of her
clothes for her and make her lunch.

***** Laurie is 24, and I iron for her and cook her meals. I also do
the majority of the housework. Up until last week, she was working
two jobs so it was more convenient for me. Now she's helping, in
this last month before she leaves for grad school. She's asked me to
help her put together a recipe book of household cleaners and her
favorite dishes. I hope she doesn't get the two mixed up <g>

> I asked her what she thought about how she grew up and for her
opinion on chores and such. Her response kind of surprised me. She
wished that her mom had made her do her own laundry and clean the
house. She said that when she went to college out of state she was
terrified, because she didn't know how to do anything. She used to
call her mom, crying because she felt so insecure. Her mom always
did the cleaning and care of the house in front of her, but it was
up to my friend whether she wanted to participate or not. Most of
the time she chose not to, and in the end didn't pick up on how
things were done.

***** I would say this was neglect on the teen's part. Surely she
realized she was about to be on her own and could have made the
decision to learn a few things before she left?

> I don't require that my kids do chores or pick up after
themselves, but what happens when they are ready to move out. Maybe
being homeschooled, which my friend was not, will make the
difference here.
>
> AnnMarie

****** Raised as a free child will make a difference, but it doesn't
necessarily mean they will keep a clean house. A clean house isn't
important to some people and sometimes we're just too busy to worry
about it.

love, Valerie
www.ubpub.com