"impossible not to use coercive methods"?
Solé
Hello there :-)
I'm having a hard time discussing unschooling with my best friend
(who just finished her training to become a teacher in public
schools :-D). I'm so new to unschooling that I cannot answer all the
questions or argue against waht she says, even though I jsut "feel"
that unschooling is "right". Don't tell me I should not go out there
to convince people, I'm not, we're just discussing and soemtimes she
says something and I feel, hmmmm yeah, hm, I really don't know, I
wonder waht unschoolers would do in these situations. So I have to
ask you.
So first, I said that unschoolers wouldn't restrict TV, and also not
the kind of programs. I have asked here how come they don't even
restrict the kind of programs, for there ARE programs which aren't
good for children (pornos, horror, war etc, she brought up a
hitchcock movie she saw when she was 6 (the birds or soemthing) and
how she was afraid of birds for her whole childhood and had
nightmares and so on), and got good answers that helped me understand.
I said that unschoolers don't expect their children to even want to
watch these kind of movies and they would prpbably trust the parents
if they told them as a friend that movie x was going to scare them,
because the child has ideally never been as disappointed by its
parents as schooled children who raised with coercive methods. And if
they wanted to so badly we'd talk about it and I'd explain my worries
and if she still wanted to watch I'd watch whith her etc.
Well, she said that NOW at 7 they wouldn't want to watch those things
but in a few years... she said just like an adult would still be
curious even if their husband/wife would tell them kindly not to
watch something because X, they would probably still want to watch
it, accepting the consequences which a child couldn't forsee. An
adult could handle the consequences (fear, nightmares) better, but
children couldn't and she said there have been research where they
showed children agressive movies and then someone would hit the
child, and those children who watched agressive movies reacted way
more agressive than the others who hadn't. So her point was, it is
proven to be damaging if they watch such things. And she doesn't
believe they wouldn't watch it just because their parents tell them –
and because I said that I would be watching with her if she wanted to
watch something "dangerous", she said that was quite time consuming
and if would I sit next to her each time at each hour in the day
whenever she wants to watch something, would I be advising her each
time if she should be watching X or Y? I guess I wouldn't want to,
and I cannot be 100% each minute with her. Is the only answer to this
that unschooled children aren't interssed in TV so much anyway
because of all the strewing we do? *scratch.head*
Ok and then she came with other examples where she says it is
impossible to not use any coercive methods and she quite got me
there, I dunno what I would do especially with very young children
when you can't even explain so much. So one example was her son who
is 3, they were at the beach and he didn't want to neither use sun
blocking cream nor use a hat, and absolutely refused it no matter
what they explained (which they kindly did). Then they said they had
to go home – they went into the car, there he promised to use the
hat. He used it for 5 Minutes and again he refused to use it – same
procedure, car, promise to use it, and then it worked for only THAT
day, and the other older child was pissed off because she did use the
cream but still was kind of punished (or would have been), if they
would have had to go home. Then she told me they met a family with
the same problem BUT, their son even had a sun allergy (or whatever
illness so he really couldn't be in the sun). So it didn't work out
very well with the coercive method either, but with letting him with
no suncream it would have burned his skin. So she asks sarcastically,
would I let my son "burn", until he "learns", what would the
unschooling parent do? and it's kind of mean to say, well then burn
from the sun, you'll see, isn't it?
She says they DO NOT learn from experience, for this thesis she had
another example was that her son had hurt herself on his knee so he
got a plaster. When the wound was healed, they tried to convince him
to put it off, but he refused. They explained it could inflame and
get worse and that it was really healed and so on but he refused. So
they even let it there ("unschooling") – and it did inflame and got
worse, it hurt him and everything, but he still didn't learn! the
next time he had a plaster was the same drama, so what would the
unschooling parent do? if this is a safety issue I guess we would be
"allowed" to enforce it and just rip the plaster off, at least the
second time it happens? BUt then, wouldn't we be allowed to switch
off TV after the second scary movie, if the first one made her have
nightmares and she still didn't learn?
It's not that I want to convince MY FRIEND, it's just that I really
don't know how *I* would handle this and I have a son who is 1 now,
soon those kind of issues will arise, I guess. My daughter is 7, with
her I can reason and since we are unschooling she is really
reasonable and she really trusts me what I say and we haven't had
these kinds of arguments (I'm waiting though, it's just been 3
weeks...), but with a toddler?
Thank you
Johanna
I'm having a hard time discussing unschooling with my best friend
(who just finished her training to become a teacher in public
schools :-D). I'm so new to unschooling that I cannot answer all the
questions or argue against waht she says, even though I jsut "feel"
that unschooling is "right". Don't tell me I should not go out there
to convince people, I'm not, we're just discussing and soemtimes she
says something and I feel, hmmmm yeah, hm, I really don't know, I
wonder waht unschoolers would do in these situations. So I have to
ask you.
So first, I said that unschoolers wouldn't restrict TV, and also not
the kind of programs. I have asked here how come they don't even
restrict the kind of programs, for there ARE programs which aren't
good for children (pornos, horror, war etc, she brought up a
hitchcock movie she saw when she was 6 (the birds or soemthing) and
how she was afraid of birds for her whole childhood and had
nightmares and so on), and got good answers that helped me understand.
I said that unschoolers don't expect their children to even want to
watch these kind of movies and they would prpbably trust the parents
if they told them as a friend that movie x was going to scare them,
because the child has ideally never been as disappointed by its
parents as schooled children who raised with coercive methods. And if
they wanted to so badly we'd talk about it and I'd explain my worries
and if she still wanted to watch I'd watch whith her etc.
Well, she said that NOW at 7 they wouldn't want to watch those things
but in a few years... she said just like an adult would still be
curious even if their husband/wife would tell them kindly not to
watch something because X, they would probably still want to watch
it, accepting the consequences which a child couldn't forsee. An
adult could handle the consequences (fear, nightmares) better, but
children couldn't and she said there have been research where they
showed children agressive movies and then someone would hit the
child, and those children who watched agressive movies reacted way
more agressive than the others who hadn't. So her point was, it is
proven to be damaging if they watch such things. And she doesn't
believe they wouldn't watch it just because their parents tell them –
and because I said that I would be watching with her if she wanted to
watch something "dangerous", she said that was quite time consuming
and if would I sit next to her each time at each hour in the day
whenever she wants to watch something, would I be advising her each
time if she should be watching X or Y? I guess I wouldn't want to,
and I cannot be 100% each minute with her. Is the only answer to this
that unschooled children aren't interssed in TV so much anyway
because of all the strewing we do? *scratch.head*
Ok and then she came with other examples where she says it is
impossible to not use any coercive methods and she quite got me
there, I dunno what I would do especially with very young children
when you can't even explain so much. So one example was her son who
is 3, they were at the beach and he didn't want to neither use sun
blocking cream nor use a hat, and absolutely refused it no matter
what they explained (which they kindly did). Then they said they had
to go home – they went into the car, there he promised to use the
hat. He used it for 5 Minutes and again he refused to use it – same
procedure, car, promise to use it, and then it worked for only THAT
day, and the other older child was pissed off because she did use the
cream but still was kind of punished (or would have been), if they
would have had to go home. Then she told me they met a family with
the same problem BUT, their son even had a sun allergy (or whatever
illness so he really couldn't be in the sun). So it didn't work out
very well with the coercive method either, but with letting him with
no suncream it would have burned his skin. So she asks sarcastically,
would I let my son "burn", until he "learns", what would the
unschooling parent do? and it's kind of mean to say, well then burn
from the sun, you'll see, isn't it?
She says they DO NOT learn from experience, for this thesis she had
another example was that her son had hurt herself on his knee so he
got a plaster. When the wound was healed, they tried to convince him
to put it off, but he refused. They explained it could inflame and
get worse and that it was really healed and so on but he refused. So
they even let it there ("unschooling") – and it did inflame and got
worse, it hurt him and everything, but he still didn't learn! the
next time he had a plaster was the same drama, so what would the
unschooling parent do? if this is a safety issue I guess we would be
"allowed" to enforce it and just rip the plaster off, at least the
second time it happens? BUt then, wouldn't we be allowed to switch
off TV after the second scary movie, if the first one made her have
nightmares and she still didn't learn?
It's not that I want to convince MY FRIEND, it's just that I really
don't know how *I* would handle this and I have a son who is 1 now,
soon those kind of issues will arise, I guess. My daughter is 7, with
her I can reason and since we are unschooling she is really
reasonable and she really trusts me what I say and we haven't had
these kinds of arguments (I'm waiting though, it's just been 3
weeks...), but with a toddler?
Thank you
Johanna
Kristie Cochran
Hi Johanna,
I'm still a newbie to unschooling as well, but the underlying theme in
this conversation with your friend is that she parents in an "either/or"
situation, whereas unschoolers parent in a "multiple choice, multiple
answer" way (to make it sound more schooly). Regarding the
sunscreen/hat issue with the 3yo, his only options were to put the
sunscreen/hat on or go home. Unschoolers would have found a way to make
putting on sunscreen fun, used spray on or colored sunscreen, bought a
sunblocking bathing suit that covers the whole body, would have only
gone out in the sun before 10am or after 3 or 4pm, or a whole host of
other options. A 3yo isn't going to understand any type of explanation
about sunscreen and what it does. But if mommy says, "Chris, can you
help mommy put on her sunscreen?" and she lets him help to put it on
her, then he sees that it's fun to squeeze out of the bottle and rub
into the skin. Then, he may just want to put it on himself, and she can
help with making sure it does get on all the right places.
Unschooling is not about "do it my way or it's the highway," like
traditional parenting dictates. It's more about exploring all the
different solutions and finding the ones that work best with your
family/child.
I'm sure you'll get some really good responses from the seasoned members
of the list and I look forward to reading them.
Kristie in VA
I'm still a newbie to unschooling as well, but the underlying theme in
this conversation with your friend is that she parents in an "either/or"
situation, whereas unschoolers parent in a "multiple choice, multiple
answer" way (to make it sound more schooly). Regarding the
sunscreen/hat issue with the 3yo, his only options were to put the
sunscreen/hat on or go home. Unschoolers would have found a way to make
putting on sunscreen fun, used spray on or colored sunscreen, bought a
sunblocking bathing suit that covers the whole body, would have only
gone out in the sun before 10am or after 3 or 4pm, or a whole host of
other options. A 3yo isn't going to understand any type of explanation
about sunscreen and what it does. But if mommy says, "Chris, can you
help mommy put on her sunscreen?" and she lets him help to put it on
her, then he sees that it's fun to squeeze out of the bottle and rub
into the skin. Then, he may just want to put it on himself, and she can
help with making sure it does get on all the right places.
Unschooling is not about "do it my way or it's the highway," like
traditional parenting dictates. It's more about exploring all the
different solutions and finding the ones that work best with your
family/child.
I'm sure you'll get some really good responses from the seasoned members
of the list and I look forward to reading them.
Kristie in VA
Danielle Pate
I've noticed a lot of "my way or the highway" attitudes among unschoolers,
actually.
This attitude is going to be there no matter where you go... even among
people that think they're all about freedom or having choices.
Danielle
Danielle Souris Pate
"I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I�
I took the one less traveled by"
Robert Frost.
Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now!
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG
actually.
This attitude is going to be there no matter where you go... even among
people that think they're all about freedom or having choices.
Danielle
Danielle Souris Pate
"I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I�
I took the one less traveled by"
Robert Frost.
>From: Kristie Cochran <kristiecochran@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] "impossible not to use coercive methods"?
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 16:36:55 -0400
>
>Hi Johanna,
>
>I'm still a newbie to unschooling as well, but the underlying theme in
>this conversation with your friend is that she parents in an "either/or"
>situation, whereas unschoolers parent in a "multiple choice, multiple
>answer" way (to make it sound more schooly). Regarding the
>sunscreen/hat issue with the 3yo, his only options were to put the
>sunscreen/hat on or go home. Unschoolers would have found a way to make
>putting on sunscreen fun, used spray on or colored sunscreen, bought a
>sunblocking bathing suit that covers the whole body, would have only
>gone out in the sun before 10am or after 3 or 4pm, or a whole host of
>other options. A 3yo isn't going to understand any type of explanation
>about sunscreen and what it does. But if mommy says, "Chris, can you
>help mommy put on her sunscreen?" and she lets him help to put it on
>her, then he sees that it's fun to squeeze out of the bottle and rub
>into the skin. Then, he may just want to put it on himself, and she can
>help with making sure it does get on all the right places.
>
>Unschooling is not about "do it my way or it's the highway," like
>traditional parenting dictates. It's more about exploring all the
>different solutions and finding the ones that work best with your
>family/child.
>
>I'm sure you'll get some really good responses from the seasoned members
>of the list and I look forward to reading them.
>
>Kristie in VA
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now!
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG
[email protected]
>>I've noticed a lot of "my way or the highway" attitudes among unschoolers, actually.>>You seem kind of hostile towards unschoolers. Am I reading this wrong? No one here has said "my way or the highway."
Do people on an unschooling list think that they have the best way for their kids to live and learn? Well, yeah. Of course I'm doing what I think is best for my family. Don't you?
Just because someone is confident doesn't mean they're telling you to get lost or change your own ways. You're free to live with your family as it works best for you. That's a given.
I hope we can get back to unschooling/parenting discussions now. This seems to be veering off into the meta-discussion zone. :o)
--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh
Michelle Leifur Reid
On 9/17/06, Solé <solelokuai@...> wrote:
Is that even legal? I would love to see the citations for that study
because I can't believe a parent would voluntarily offer their child
up to be in a study where they would be hit! Also, I would hazard
that not all the children who watched aggressive movies reacted
violently and that all the children who didn't were less violent. It
is most likely an antecdotal study at best. My brother grew up loving
very violent movies (not just horror, but movies where there was lots
of shooting, slashing with knives, criminal behaviour) and yet he is
one of the most gentle and peaceful people that I know. There are
several families on this list who have children who are very into what
would be considered violent video games, yet they are truly gentle
souls.
been unschooled, who have not built up trust with their parents and
whose parents place their time as more important than their
children's. Can I be with my children 100% of the time? No. I do
have to pee and bathe and go to work. Yet I do know that if my child
has a need of me to be there for them I will. And that includes
watching a movie that their friends have seen, but that they are
concerned that might frighten them or make them otherwise
uncomfortable.
It is hard for people who are unfamiliar with unschooling and how have
grown up being taught coercive measures to think in non-coercive
terms. We are a society that has learned well how to make other
people do what we want them to (or what we wouldn't want to do
ourselves!!) We can't think of ways to get what needs to be done (by
others and ourselves!) without coercion of some sort.
--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!
> AnWhat a horrid study. Hitting children to see how they would react?
> adult could handle the consequences (fear, nightmares) better, but
> children couldn't and she said there have been research where they
> showed children agressive movies and then someone would hit the
> child, and those children who watched agressive movies reacted way
> more agressive than the others who hadn't.
Is that even legal? I would love to see the citations for that study
because I can't believe a parent would voluntarily offer their child
up to be in a study where they would be hit! Also, I would hazard
that not all the children who watched aggressive movies reacted
violently and that all the children who didn't were less violent. It
is most likely an antecdotal study at best. My brother grew up loving
very violent movies (not just horror, but movies where there was lots
of shooting, slashing with knives, criminal behaviour) and yet he is
one of the most gentle and peaceful people that I know. There are
several families on this list who have children who are very into what
would be considered violent video games, yet they are truly gentle
souls.
>So her point was, it isREalize that your friend is thinking in terms of children who have not
> proven to be damaging if they watch such things. And she doesn't
> believe they wouldn't watch it just because their parents tell them –
> and because I said that I would be watching with her if she wanted to
> watch something "dangerous", she said that was quite time consuming
been unschooled, who have not built up trust with their parents and
whose parents place their time as more important than their
children's. Can I be with my children 100% of the time? No. I do
have to pee and bathe and go to work. Yet I do know that if my child
has a need of me to be there for them I will. And that includes
watching a movie that their friends have seen, but that they are
concerned that might frighten them or make them otherwise
uncomfortable.
It is hard for people who are unfamiliar with unschooling and how have
grown up being taught coercive measures to think in non-coercive
terms. We are a society that has learned well how to make other
people do what we want them to (or what we wouldn't want to do
ourselves!!) We can't think of ways to get what needs to be done (by
others and ourselves!) without coercion of some sort.
--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!
Michelle Leifur Reid
On 9/17/06, Danielle Pate <DaniellePate@...> wrote:
way or the highway" and defining what is and isn't unschooling.
Please recognize when you read this list that all these things we are
saying are either a) definitions of unschooling (or what isn't
unschooling) or b) suggestions on how to approach a situation in which
someone has found themselves.
--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!
> I've noticed a lot of "my way or the highway" attitudes among unschoolers,Danielle, gently I say this, I think there is a difference between "my
> actually.
way or the highway" and defining what is and isn't unschooling.
Please recognize when you read this list that all these things we are
saying are either a) definitions of unschooling (or what isn't
unschooling) or b) suggestions on how to approach a situation in which
someone has found themselves.
--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!
Elissa Jill Cleaveland
<<What a horrid study. Hitting children to see how they would react?
Is that even legal? I would love to see the citations for that study
because I can't believe a parent would voluntarily offer their child
up to be in a study where they would be hit!>>
My first thought on reading that was the children who watched the movies
took away some sort of sense of personal empowerment, that they realized
from watching these movies that they had the ability to defend themselves
and did so.
It's damaging to react aggressively to someone attacking you? Not in my
book.
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
Is that even legal? I would love to see the citations for that study
because I can't believe a parent would voluntarily offer their child
up to be in a study where they would be hit!>>
My first thought on reading that was the children who watched the movies
took away some sort of sense of personal empowerment, that they realized
from watching these movies that they had the ability to defend themselves
and did so.
It's damaging to react aggressively to someone attacking you? Not in my
book.
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
Solé
Sorry, I just exaggerated on that O:-) She didn't even know exactly
what it was and I didn't remember well when I quoted it either. I
just looked, what she said was "and after they had seen the
(agressive) movie, they'd take away something of the child
agressively or hit them or something", So I dunno exactly what it was
they did and she didn't either she just remembered their reaction was
more aggressive than the reaction of the children who had seen
peaceful movies.
But actually after thinking about what you guys have been saying, I
realize that such studies don't really say anything, especially
because they are never done with unschooled children.
Are there any studies with unschooled children, btw.? I know that you
don't need any proves like the results of such studies, but I think
it would still be interesting and easier for us to do what we do if
our environment could be informed through their so much valued
"studies".
Greetings
Johanna
Am 18.09.2006 um 16:07 schrieb Elissa Jill Cleaveland:
what it was and I didn't remember well when I quoted it either. I
just looked, what she said was "and after they had seen the
(agressive) movie, they'd take away something of the child
agressively or hit them or something", So I dunno exactly what it was
they did and she didn't either she just remembered their reaction was
more aggressive than the reaction of the children who had seen
peaceful movies.
But actually after thinking about what you guys have been saying, I
realize that such studies don't really say anything, especially
because they are never done with unschooled children.
Are there any studies with unschooled children, btw.? I know that you
don't need any proves like the results of such studies, but I think
it would still be interesting and easier for us to do what we do if
our environment could be informed through their so much valued
"studies".
Greetings
Johanna
Am 18.09.2006 um 16:07 schrieb Elissa Jill Cleaveland:
> <<What a horrid study. Hitting children to see how they would react?
> Is that even legal? I would love to see the citations for that study
> because I can't believe a parent would voluntarily offer their child
> up to be in a study where they would be hit!>>
> My first thought on reading that was the children who watched the
> movies
> took away some sort of sense of personal empowerment, that they
> realized
> from watching these movies that they had the ability to defend
> themselves
> and did so.
> It's damaging to react aggressively to someone attacking you? Not
> in my
> book.
> Elissa Jill
> A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
> "A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: solelokuai@...
Are there any studies with unschooled children, btw.? I know that you
don't need any proves like the results of such studies, but I think
it would still be interesting and easier for us to do what we do if
our environment could be informed through their so much valued
"studies".
-=-=-=-
The deal IS:
Which one of you would volunteer *your* child for such a study?
I doubt we'll ever see many (any???) studies down on unschooled kids.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: solelokuai@...
Are there any studies with unschooled children, btw.? I know that you
don't need any proves like the results of such studies, but I think
it would still be interesting and easier for us to do what we do if
our environment could be informed through their so much valued
"studies".
-=-=-=-
The deal IS:
Which one of you would volunteer *your* child for such a study?
I doubt we'll ever see many (any???) studies down on unschooled kids.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Michelle Leifur Reid
On 9/18/06, kbcdlovejo@... <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
unschoolers we would need a control group. I don't see traditionally
schooled children as a fair control group. Would we compare them to
traditionally homeschooled children? Children left in a box for 18
years? What we can do is look at "reports" from parents of unschooled
children. We can look at individual reports from these parents.
Though biased, they would speak better than trying to do some sort of
controlled study.
Where can we read such reports? Here to start with. At
sandradodd.com for another. Several unschooling magazines and even
unschooling blogs. I think one reason that most unschoolers see their
children as "successful" is because they have redefined what success
is. It isn't going to an Ivy league college, winning a Rhodes
scholarship, becoming a well-paid defense attorney (or vascular
surgeon) *unless* those are the goals of that child. I've read
"reports" from unshcooling moms who were just as proud of their
children who chose to live homeless for a period of time as I have
from unschooling moms whose children have gone on to more
traditionally looking careers.
Studies schmudies. Who needs them? I don't. :)
--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!
>And what would we use as a control group? If we were to do studies on
> The deal IS:
>
> Which one of you would volunteer *your* child for such a study?
>
> I doubt we'll ever see many (any???) studies down on unschooled kids.
>
unschoolers we would need a control group. I don't see traditionally
schooled children as a fair control group. Would we compare them to
traditionally homeschooled children? Children left in a box for 18
years? What we can do is look at "reports" from parents of unschooled
children. We can look at individual reports from these parents.
Though biased, they would speak better than trying to do some sort of
controlled study.
Where can we read such reports? Here to start with. At
sandradodd.com for another. Several unschooling magazines and even
unschooling blogs. I think one reason that most unschoolers see their
children as "successful" is because they have redefined what success
is. It isn't going to an Ivy league college, winning a Rhodes
scholarship, becoming a well-paid defense attorney (or vascular
surgeon) *unless* those are the goals of that child. I've read
"reports" from unshcooling moms who were just as proud of their
children who chose to live homeless for a period of time as I have
from unschooling moms whose children have gone on to more
traditionally looking careers.
Studies schmudies. Who needs them? I don't. :)
--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!
Solé
Why not? There are kind researchers and kind studies. No one HAS
TO :-) Everybody CAN if he wants, right? I could imagine to volunteer
if my child wanted, and I think some of the kids who are already 18
or older and have friends who haven't been unschooled and kind of
feel that they want to contribute to change this, migth volunteer?
How about that 18 year old Cameron who wantst to talk to his
girlfriend's mom (someone of this list, I dunno who it was) and wants
to lend her a book and everything. Maybe these kids, at least when
older, are quite wiling to contribute so other kids have the same
wonderful childhoods they had...
Johanna
Am 18.09.2006 um 22:48 schrieb kbcdlovejo@...:
TO :-) Everybody CAN if he wants, right? I could imagine to volunteer
if my child wanted, and I think some of the kids who are already 18
or older and have friends who haven't been unschooled and kind of
feel that they want to contribute to change this, migth volunteer?
How about that 18 year old Cameron who wantst to talk to his
girlfriend's mom (someone of this list, I dunno who it was) and wants
to lend her a book and everything. Maybe these kids, at least when
older, are quite wiling to contribute so other kids have the same
wonderful childhoods they had...
Johanna
Am 18.09.2006 um 22:48 schrieb kbcdlovejo@...:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: solelokuai@...
>
> Are there any studies with unschooled children, btw.? I know that you
> don't need any proves like the results of such studies, but I think
> it would still be interesting and easier for us to do what we do if
> our environment could be informed through their so much valued
> "studies".
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> The deal IS:
>
> Which one of you would volunteer *your* child for such a study?
>
> I doubt we'll ever see many (any???) studies down on unschooled kids.
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://liveandlearnconference.org
>
> "It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
> security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
> across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>
>
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: solelokuai@...
Why not? There are kind researchers and kind studies. No one HAS
TO :-) Everybody CAN if he wants, right? I could imagine to volunteer
if my child wanted, and I think some of the kids who are already 18
or older and have friends who haven't been unschooled and kind of
feel that they want to contribute to change this, migth volunteer?
How about that 18 year old Cameron who wantst to talk to his
girlfriend's mom (someone of this list, I dunno who it was) and wants
to lend her a book and everything. Maybe these kids, at least when
older, are quite wiling to contribute so other kids have the same
wonderful childhoods they had...
-=-=-
Yeah but...
I think the studies people *want* are the studies done on school-AGED
children. And I will NOT submit Duncan to that. If I wanted him tested
and graded, I'd put him in school! <bwg>
Cameron (he's mine <g>) would be happy to be interviewed, but at 18 is
no longer a "child"---and I don't think there are many schooled adults
who would have all *that* much negative to say about themselves or
their childhood either. We *all* would like to believe that the
childhood we endured/survived was the best we could have had. Many
things often look blurry through adult eyes! <g> That's why people
don't make the necessary changes to be a better parent than their own
parents were. I mean...THEY turned out OK, right?
AND I think that if it were a pro-unschooling study (meaning a
supporter of unschooling was doing the study) that it would be taken as
self-serving publicity at most and plain stupid/reckless at the very
least. I think it would be rather hard to find a truly unbiased
interviewer/studier/sociologist/scientist. Plus, if we changed the mind
of the scientist/sociologist/whomever, it would no longer looked
unbiased.
Schooling and parenting aee HUGELY personal---just check out your
*own* friendships since you've chosen unschooling/gentle parenting! <G>
One of the big reasons the conference is so powerful is that you're
surrounded by other parents who actually GET it and LIVE it! Close,
immediate friendships are formed due to the common parenting and
educational ideas. Kind of freaky, really! <g>
Cameron's more than happy to "evangelize" with me! <g> Duncan will
too. But I won't subject him to the same things we're avoiding by not
sending him to school.
I think their contributions will be made in the same way the are
now---one person at a time---WHEN that person is ready.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: solelokuai@...
Why not? There are kind researchers and kind studies. No one HAS
TO :-) Everybody CAN if he wants, right? I could imagine to volunteer
if my child wanted, and I think some of the kids who are already 18
or older and have friends who haven't been unschooled and kind of
feel that they want to contribute to change this, migth volunteer?
How about that 18 year old Cameron who wantst to talk to his
girlfriend's mom (someone of this list, I dunno who it was) and wants
to lend her a book and everything. Maybe these kids, at least when
older, are quite wiling to contribute so other kids have the same
wonderful childhoods they had...
-=-=-
Yeah but...
I think the studies people *want* are the studies done on school-AGED
children. And I will NOT submit Duncan to that. If I wanted him tested
and graded, I'd put him in school! <bwg>
Cameron (he's mine <g>) would be happy to be interviewed, but at 18 is
no longer a "child"---and I don't think there are many schooled adults
who would have all *that* much negative to say about themselves or
their childhood either. We *all* would like to believe that the
childhood we endured/survived was the best we could have had. Many
things often look blurry through adult eyes! <g> That's why people
don't make the necessary changes to be a better parent than their own
parents were. I mean...THEY turned out OK, right?
AND I think that if it were a pro-unschooling study (meaning a
supporter of unschooling was doing the study) that it would be taken as
self-serving publicity at most and plain stupid/reckless at the very
least. I think it would be rather hard to find a truly unbiased
interviewer/studier/sociologist/scientist. Plus, if we changed the mind
of the scientist/sociologist/whomever, it would no longer looked
unbiased.
Schooling and parenting aee HUGELY personal---just check out your
*own* friendships since you've chosen unschooling/gentle parenting! <G>
One of the big reasons the conference is so powerful is that you're
surrounded by other parents who actually GET it and LIVE it! Close,
immediate friendships are formed due to the common parenting and
educational ideas. Kind of freaky, really! <g>
Cameron's more than happy to "evangelize" with me! <g> Duncan will
too. But I won't subject him to the same things we're avoiding by not
sending him to school.
I think their contributions will be made in the same way the are
now---one person at a time---WHEN that person is ready.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Alice
--- In [email protected], Solé <solelokuai@...> wrote:
So she asks sarcastically,
> would I let my son "burn", until he "learns", what would the
> unschooling parent do? and it's kind of mean to say, well then burn
> from the sun, you'll see, isn't it?
*** I have been thinking about these scenarios she has presented with
you and I think she is missing the point of unschooling. Which is
common.
Traditional parenting is all about force, control and "making" kids do
things by use of punishments/rewards. The parents decide, the child
obeys. This goes on all day long, day in and day out. The children
have little or no real control over their life. They may be allowed
to have pseudo-choices such as "You can wear the red jacket or the
blue jacket but you WILL wear a jacket." (or my favorite, "You can
eat all your veggies or you can get a spanking") But other than that
their days consist of being bossed around by the parent or other adult
authority figures.
What this creates in the child is a strong opposition or counterwill
in order to maintain their sense of self. It is this dynamic that for
the most part is missing in unschooled children. And it is this
dynamic that makes it difficult for traditionally parenting families
to find solutions other than using coercive methods. In the sunscreen
case, counterwill would make finding a solution near impossible simply
because the issue is not about sunscreen but about the child asserting
his automony. And since the parent will not let the child be
autonomous, there really is no solution. The parent and child will
clash and whoever is more forceful will prevail. Even if the parent
offers alternatives, such as a T-shirt, the child will still say no
because the child is using this as an opportunity to deliberately
oppose the parent.
This type of incident occurs because the entire relationship is based
on control and force. Parents and children who unschool base their
relationship on love and respect. When children are not being forced
to do things, counterwill is not triggered in the child. When
children are treated with respect, solutions can be reached.
Unschooling parents strive to not make demands or issue orders to
their children. Despite the fact that we are bigger and stronger than
our children, we try our best to not use this force to get our own
way. Our children relish their automony and respect us because we
respect them. And they call us on it when we are using force with
them and we apologize!
What this creates is a wonderful, joyous, loving climate in which
solutions can be found. It also simplifies the problem. An
unschooling family struggling with finding a solution to sun burn is
just dealing with that - the sun burn. Optimally, they are not
struggling with the whole force/control/counterwill issue that a
traditional family would be dealing with. So the child really can
just make a choice. He doesn't have to choose not to put on sunscreen
as a way to assert his will as opposite to his mother's. He can
choose to put it on just because it would be a smart thing to do. And
he can choose to not put it on just because he really hates the feel
of it. Mom probably has a preference but she isn't going to impose it
on him. And she certainly isn't going to coerce him.
So traditional parents always ask what boils down to the same
either/or question: Either you make your child do (whatever) or you
let them kill/hurt/maim/burn themselves. In their reality, that is
all they know. There is no other choice. And really, I think, it is
probably true. For a parent and child locked in a battle of wills,
there is only one winner and one loser. You either force them or let
them hurt themselves.
But as far as either/or goes, unschoolers will answer that question as
"neither" because our reality is entirely different. I will neither
force them nor will I "let" them kill themselves. What I will do is
work with them, in an attitude of mutual respect, to find a solution
that is acceptable to all. And because I treat my child with respect
all the time - not just in this single instance - he will work with me
to find that solution and not have to exert all his energy opposing
me. We both win because we are not fighting each other, we are on the
same team working on a problem. It is just a completely different
paradigm.
-Alice
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/20/2006 10:47:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
thesackmans@... writes:
We both win because we are not fighting each other, we are on the
same team working on a problem. It is just a completely different
paradigm.
-Alice
***********
Wow, Alice!! This is going in my file. I have been trying to explain this
to people lately, but I never quite end up where I want to. LOL. I have
been rehearsing a speech to someone starting with "we are just living in a
different paradigm."
Thank you.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thesackmans@... writes:
We both win because we are not fighting each other, we are on the
same team working on a problem. It is just a completely different
paradigm.
-Alice
***********
Wow, Alice!! This is going in my file. I have been trying to explain this
to people lately, but I never quite end up where I want to. LOL. I have
been rehearsing a speech to someone starting with "we are just living in a
different paradigm."
Thank you.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Solé
Yeah, WOW, that's what I wanted to say too. Thank you for this :-)
Greetings
Johanna
Am 20.09.2006 um 17:00 schrieb Leslie530@...:
Greetings
Johanna
Am 20.09.2006 um 17:00 schrieb Leslie530@...:
>
> In a message dated 9/20/2006 10:47:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> thesackmans@... writes:
>
> We both win because we are not fighting each other, we are on the
> same team working on a problem. It is just a completely different
> paradigm.
>
> -Alice
>
> ***********
>
> Wow, Alice!! This is going in my file. I have been trying to
> explain this
> to people lately, but I never quite end up where I want to. LOL. I
> have
> been rehearsing a speech to someone starting with "we are just
> living in a
> different paradigm."
>
> Thank you.
>
> Leslie in SC
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Lesa
Alice,
I just wanted to tell you that your response was wonderful. :)
Lesa
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
-------Original Message-------
From: Alice
Date: 09/20/06 09:47:47
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: "impossible not to use coercive methods"?
I just wanted to tell you that your response was wonderful. :)
Lesa
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
-------Original Message-------
From: Alice
Date: 09/20/06 09:47:47
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: "impossible not to use coercive methods"?
--- In [email protected], Solé <solelokuai@...> wrote:
So she asks sarcastically,
> would I let my son "burn", until he "learns", what would the
> unschooling parent do? and it's kind of mean to say, well then burn
> from the sun, you'll see, isn't it?
*** I have been thinking about these scenarios she has presented with
you and I think she is missing the point of unschooling. Which is
common.
Traditional parenting is all about force, control and "making" kids do
things by use of punishments/rewards. The parents decide, the child
obeys. This goes on all day long, day in and day out. The children
have little or no real control over their life. They may be allowed
to have pseudo-choices such as "You can wear the red jacket or the
blue jacket but you WILL wear a jacket." (or my favorite, "You can
eat all your veggies or you can get a spanking") But other than that
their days consist of being bossed around by the parent or other adult
authority figures.
What this creates in the child is a strong opposition or counterwill
in order to maintain their sense of self. It is this dynamic that for
the most part is missing in unschooled children. And it is this
dynamic that makes it difficult for traditionally parenting families
to find solutions other than using coercive methods. In the sunscreen
case, counterwill would make finding a solution near impossible simply
because the issue is not about sunscreen but about the child asserting
his automony. And since the parent will not let the child be
autonomous, there really is no solution. The parent and child will
clash and whoever is more forceful will prevail. Even if the parent
offers alternatives, such as a T-shirt, the child will still say no
because the child is using this as an opportunity to deliberately
oppose the parent.
This type of incident occurs because the entire relationship is based
on control and force. Parents and children who unschool base their
relationship on love and respect. When children are not being forced
to do things, counterwill is not triggered in the child. When
children are treated with respect, solutions can be reached.
Unschooling parents strive to not make demands or issue orders to
their children. Despite the fact that we are bigger and stronger than
our children, we try our best to not use this force to get our own
way. Our children relish their automony and respect us because we
respect them. And they call us on it when we are using force with
them and we apologize!
What this creates is a wonderful, joyous, loving climate in which
solutions can be found. It also simplifies the problem. An
unschooling family struggling with finding a solution to sun burn is
just dealing with that - the sun burn. Optimally, they are not
struggling with the whole force/control/counterwill issue that a
traditional family would be dealing with. So the child really can
just make a choice. He doesn't have to choose not to put on sunscreen
as a way to assert his will as opposite to his mother's. He can
choose to put it on just because it would be a smart thing to do. And
he can choose to not put it on just because he really hates the feel
of it. Mom probably has a preference but she isn't going to impose it
on him. And she certainly isn't going to coerce him.
So traditional parents always ask what boils down to the same
either/or question: Either you make your child do (whatever) or you
let them kill/hurt/maim/burn themselves. In their reality, that is
all they know. There is no other choice. And really, I think, it is
probably true. For a parent and child locked in a battle of wills,
there is only one winner and one loser. You either force them or let
them hurt themselves.
But as far as either/or goes, unschoolers will answer that question as
"neither" because our reality is entirely different. I will neither
force them nor will I "let" them kill themselves. What I will do is
work with them, in an attitude of mutual respect, to find a solution
that is acceptable to all. And because I treat my child with respect
all the time - not just in this single instance - he will work with me
to find that solution and not have to exert all his energy opposing
me. We both win because we are not fighting each other, we are on the
same team working on a problem. It is just a completely different
paradigm.
-Alice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]