jlh44music

I have a dilemma that I would appreciate some input on.

My dd (14 this month) has been staying up after we go to bed until 4
or 5AM (sometimes 6 or 7 AM! Only a couple of times….). This has
only been for the past couple of months. I used to stay up with
her until maybe 2 or 3 AM as she didn't want to be alone, but
finally we had a discussion about it because it was catching up with
me (I can't sleep as long on the other end). She decided she wanted
to stay up on her own.

She plays World of Warcraft almost exclusively, and has since she
left school in June 2005 (end of 6th grade). This has been her
first year, deschooling, healing. I've had my struggles but get
lots of help by coming here and continuing to read and deschool
myself. Our relationship has improved greatly, more mutual
respect, trust etc.

Back in the spring she learned how to talk to her friends on the
game through a headset and approached me about getting one. She
showed me the software (free download), her dad checked it (he's the
computer guy) as she knows we want to be sure it's legit etc and we
got the headset. She's really enjoyed talking with the friends
she's made in the game while they're playing. She doesn't have a
lot of friends IRL (she's always had a hard time connecting with her
peers). This group is a variety of ages, including teens and
adults. She talks to me fairly often about the different people.
One (I'll call him "J") has come up more often lately. I asked a
little about him, how old, what state does he live in – she knows to
not say where she lives, only the state once she gets to "know" them
better, most of the people are mid to west coast – how old is he
etc). She isn't always sure, she doesn't ask a lot of questions,
but picks it up from the general conversations, but I think he's at
least 18. She has also mentioned that a couple of the adults (I'm
assuming, or hoping) are sometimes drunk (she thinks it's comical-
another topic for discussion we have too) but I'm not sure if he was
one of them. She also says most don't know how old she is, she's
concerned they'll "reject" (not the word I want) her if they find
out she's "only 13".

We have cordless phones and this morning I went to hit redial
thinking I was recalling the last number I dialed, and it was "J's"
number (cell phone). It went to voice mail. Then, it occurred to
me that the phone upstairs (that she uses earlier in the evening
many days to talk to her friend (who is in school)) has been in the
bathroom when I get up in the morning for a few days now (I use it
as well from my office also on the 2nd floor). One of the last
things I do before I go to bed is replace the 2 cordless phones in
their cradles to recharge them.

I'm not sure how to approach her about this. We had the talks about
internet safety etc. I don't know if she's talking to him on the
phone, or just paging him that she's online (even though she's
online from the moment she gets up until she goes to bed, unless
we're off doing something). And if she's called him, he now most
likely has our phone number.

Also, for several weeks the phone would ring a couple of times a day
("out of area" on the caller ID). I registered with "Do Not Call"
quite a while ago and the telemarketer calls have all but ceased, so
now I'm wondering if it might be connected. I didn't pick it up,
that's why we have an answering machine if it's a number I don't
know, I've also heard that telemarketers have a computer program
that will call randomly to see if someone picks up, just to register
when to call for real.

We've talked many times about how it's not HER I don't trust, its
other more experienced and older/stronger (for real life situations
when we've talked about abduction etc) people. Also, she doesn't
have the world experience of knowing how to read people yet. She's
by nature very cautious but we all know how much easier it is to be
more open on the internet.

Ideas and thoughts are welcome.
Jann

Michelle Leifur Reid

On 9/8/06, jlh44music <jlh44music@...> wrote:
>
> I have a dilemma that I would appreciate some input on.
>
> My dd (14 this month) has been staying up after we go to bed until 4
> or 5AM (sometimes 6 or 7 AM! Only a couple of times�.).


Jann, I totally understand your concerns. You could be talking about my
daughter, except she does more RP on AIM than anything else. Her buddy list
has grown recently and it concerned me (she has it set up that only people
who are on her buddy list can IM her). So far I know the connection of all
the people on her buddy list (RL friends of RL friends, no internet
"buddies" met online). We talk often about ways to keep safe on the
internet. I worry about her uploads to Youtube and have monitored the
comments, not because (like you) I dont' trust her but because I want to
know who is seeing her stuff and leaving comments.

If this guy has your phone number (which with a cell phone he might just)
then he also has access to find out where you live and who you are (reverse
number look up). Google your phone number and see what you come up with.
It can be eye opening. Emily knows that I read her comments. She actually
likes me to. But I don't read her e-mail. But I don't believe that there
is anything to worry about on that front.

I['m not sure what to tell you. I would be concerned. I would probably
talk to Emily if I were in the same situation. Do you have the trust of
your daughter that you feel you could talk to her without her feeling
condemned?





--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Solé

Hello,

I think there are three things here that you can think about.

First of all, you are saying (to her and to us) that you do trust
HER, but not the other guys. IMO, this is not fully true, if you
think about it carefully. You do not trust the other guys, and in
certain ways you do trust that she doesn't *want* anything bad
happens to her, but you do not trust in her ability to detect a "bad
guy", or you do not trust that she believes you when you are trying
to say "nobody is trust worthy on the internet, because you can never
know" (in case this is your point). It is OK if you do not trust her
in that! But then, start not saying you trust her, when you do not
trust her fully, she'll know.

Second, you said you don't know if she's talking to him on the phone,
and if it is concerning you and your inner, natural limits, because
it's just driving you crazy and you can't sleep at nights because you
are afraid (or whatever reaction you may have), you will just need to
talk to her about that, openly. Tell her your concerns. Tell her you
don't trust in her ability to detect a bad guy (or the other thing).
Tell her that you are afraid. She might understand!

And third, teach her to detect such a guy if that is your problem! If
you have the time, you might just chat together in another chatroom.
Chat a lot. I know she might be too old to "play games", but I think
it could still be fun to make it a game. You are anonymous. You can
make up an identity and talk to guys. See what the guys say and talk
about how you think this guy is and if he seems to be trustworthy or
not and WHY and ask her how she would think about this or that other
guy. You can even do it so far as to accept invitations of actually
meeting the person. You can go together and check it out. Find out if
the people lie or not. Since you are anonymous and you are not
experimenting with her already "friends", you can tell those other
people whatever you want, just to test. This might also let her think
about how people can make up an identity on the other end of the
line!!! And you can try things out like: Yeah, you can invite me, but
I'm 13 and you'll have to say hello to my mom. Or, I'm 25 and I have
big boops! Or, I'm 57 and have 5 children... See how the guys would
react. Talk about how these guys react. Talk about what kind of
reactions you would have liked instead (if). For instance, if the
guys would leave instantly, you can derive from this behaviour that
he is not really interested then. Or that he is afraid. Or something
else. These are just ideas, you can do all or some or nothing. And of
course it only works, if she would like to do that. But maybe she
wants. Because she wants to be safe, and if she knows about internet
safety already she might be interested in such a test (and it is
fun). And if you told her your true concerns she might also want to
do if for you, to ease your stress and your fear.

Because you are unschooling, you know that if she doesn't get the
chance to check out this medium she'll probably be even more naive
about it whenever she'll be able to use it, so you don't want to
forbid it. But you are still concerned. But you are concerned about
her ability to detect bad guys, so I think you have to approach the
problem from that end. When you have done "research" together, you
might as well come up with a thesis that says that nobody is actually
really trustworthy on the internet. Or that some are and some don't
and that there are different criteria which can help you determine
if. There is always a risk. But you will also always be there for her
just in case. There are dangers on the street as well.

Greetings
Johanna

P.S.: Since I'm unschooling only for a very very short time, I don't
know if my advices are really according to unschooling principles.
Anyone is free to tell me where I'm wrong. Thank you :-)



Am 08.09.2006 um 20:10 schrieb jlh44music:

> I'm not sure how to approach her about this. We had the talks about
> internet safety etc. I don't know if she's talking to him on the
> phone, or just paging him that she's online (even though she's
> online from the moment she gets up until she goes to bed, unless
> we're off doing something). And if she's called him, he now most
> likely has our phone number.

Michelle Leifur Reid

On 9/8/06, Solé <solelokuai@...> wrote:
>
>
> And third, teach her to detect such a guy if that is your problem!


I don't know if that is even possible. I've been "hoodwinked" a few times
by people I've met online. Some "gal" who is all into some craft and has
this fantastic story. You get to know her and several years later you find
out that she wasn't a she at all, but some really weird guy who just liked
stirring up trouble. YOu thought she was a 30-something mother of 2 living
in Iowa and you find out that he is this 50 yo guy living in Chicago.
Because you've built up "trust" with this guy for several years you've
eventually given some personal information out. Then you find out the truth
and you worry for quite a while that this weirdo is going to show up at your
door someday. This really happened to me. It was scary when it all came
out and there were several of us who had even given this person our phone
numbers! So if a guy can fool a "interent saavy" adult woman how is a 14 yo
supposed to be able to detect a shady character?





--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Solé

> if a guy can fool a "interent saavy" adult woman how is a 14 yo
> supposed to be able to detect a shady character?

Well certainly not when she isn't allowed to do this anymore, but we
all know that here. The only way we learn this lesson is by doing it.
If her mother is by her side when they do it, the risk is less.
That's why I said they should talk about how they think the people
are and so on and talka bout how they could be someone else, and make
up an identity yourself so you can see that it is fairly easy. You
can see how other people believe you and how you can perfeclty make
believe other people. So you can learn that anyone could do this and
that she should generally not trust other people.

There is always a risk, also in "real life". First of all, Internet
ist part of our "real life" and is as real as anything else. It is
easier yes, to cloke yourself and make up an identity and this is
very welcomed by such bastards.

BUT, this can happen in real life as well! My best friend had a room
mate she still (has to) live with who told her she worked for IBM and
has extremely expensive clothes from designers and all kinds of
things and she believed her all along, until a few weeks ago a guy
from some institute came demanding debts and such. It turned out she
has no job and had been lying all along, the thigns were stolen or
paid with VISA, the account not covered though so she has 20000 €
debts. So even in "real life" you can never know. A similar thing
happened to my mother, and I think many people have encountered these
kinds of situations. Should we raise our children in fear that you
cannot trust anybody?

Better we give them the tools to do it the best we can, give them
support if anything happens and stay close with them in trust (rather
than thinking "should I ask her or not if she phoned him..." and be
able to talk to stay informed.

Another thing is that you shouldn't think that just because you don't
give your telephone number that youa re safe! Anyone can find out who
the internet access belongs to, if someone really wanted, and mostly
the numbers are registered somewhere anyway. And someone doesn't need
your telephone number to harass you, it can happen on the streets as
well.

In any case, the research Jann and her daughter could do, would be
more effective than anything I can think of. Just talking about
internet safety is not enough, if her daughter believes or "feels"
that she CAN trust that guy. So examples of people who are not really
trust worthy are needed, and they needn't wait until something
"happens".

Greetings
Johanna

jlh44music

"Michelle Leifur Reid" <pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
> Jann, I totally understand your concerns. You could be talking
about my daughter, except she does more RP on AIM than anything else.>>

What's RP? Haven't seen that one before.

> If this guy has your phone number (which with a cell phone he might
just)then he also has access to find out where you live and who you
are (reverse number look up). Google your phone number and see what
you come up with. It can be eye opening.>>

A while back there was info on how to block your number from showing
up on the internet, which I did to all ours (home and cell) plus my
dad's. I doesn't show up when you google at least!

Actually, a lot has happened since I posted! The same night, she
wanted to IM with me (she likes to talk to me this way when it's
something "sensitive", she has a hard time with face to face
conversations). We talked about a few "chatty" things, then she
mentioned how her headset, no actually the software, isn't working
(she uses TeamSpeak to talk with her friends as they're playing World
of Warcraft) so she's talked to some friends on the phone. It was the
perfect opportunity for me to say "I hit the redial and a number came
up I didn't know", she asked if it was a guy, then she proceeded to
tell me it was "J" and that they enjoy talking but haven't been able
to online. She also said "I was kinda going behind u and dads back
calling my friend without telling u guys, i didn't know how u guys
would react" (I saved the words she wrote so I would be accurate). I
told her I was glad she felt comfortable telling me and that I wasn't
mad at all. Then we talked some more about safety and being careful
not to give out info etc. Also my concerns about the late hour (this
has been happening after I go to bed) and the length of conversations
(he's in TX, we have free nationwide). She said she doesn't feel like
he's a bad person and she's been very aware of possible danger
signals. (She had an experience earlier this year with another teen a
couple of years older than her, they didn't talk on the phone, only
email and occ IM, but he started getting "pushy" and she ended it
because of that, which made me feel more confident about her ability
to say "no" (in whatever form that takes - I've been
reading "Protecting the Gift", I bought it a while back after someone
recommended it here but hadn't read it yet - someone mentioned it to
me in an email so I dug it out! Perfect timing, I highly recommend
it!).

She had a friend over Sat and overnight, so we didn't have a chance to
talk any more about it until last night (or should I say this
morning!). Her friend went home at noon (she lives in another town)
and she wasn't on the phone at all until after I went to bed, it was
about 2:30 AM. I waited a while to see how long she'd be on (her
door was closed) then after 45 mins I knocked and said I'd appreciate
it if she'd not be on the phone so late and left the room. A while
later (after she ended the call, but also didn't come to see me, which
didn't surprise me) I knocked again on her door and said I'd like to
talk. I started out be telling her I wasn't angry. I told her about
my concerns, calling at such a late hour, after we've gone to bed,
it "appears" sneaky etc etc. We talked for almost 2 hours and I was
relieved to hear what she had to say. She talked a lot about how
she's very aware of how people treat her (and others), she doesn't
hesitate to speak her mind (and that doesn't mean she's "mean", only
firm if necessary). She knows to end it if she's uncomfortable (like
this other teen I mentioned above). She's still worried I'll explode
because I "worry about this". I finally said that since she wants me
to trust her, then I ask that she trust me when I say that I'm working
really hard on changing that and to listen more (mutual respect). (I
haven't "exploded" in quite a while, but of course this is part of our
history, and part of our healing process).

So even though I'm very tired today, it was worth it. She also said
she now feels more comfortable talking to me face-to-face, and this is
progress. I talked about how I could't talk to my mother about things
like this, and I don't want that kind of relationship with her.

We also talked more about the things she wants to explore (dance
lessons which start the end of the month, horseback riding, which
means she needs to get up before 3 or 4 in the afternoon to go visit
different places to find a good fit, just going someplace that
interests either of us). She says she'll get up (and get to bed
earlier, well, that's hard for her because she hits her stride after
midnight!) if we've got something planned, but she doesn't know how to
take the initiative, she still wants me to help her find opportunities.

So, it's a "work in progress" having a teen. But much better than I
remember it being when I was that age (and not the "horrible teen
years" people (who don't get unschooling) love to roll their eyes
about when I mention my daughter's age (sigh....).
Thanks again for everyone's input!
Jann

Vanessa

Thank you for sharing this. It helps, because my son is pre-teen,
so by you talking about this it helps me to see the things that can
go on, and how to work on trust issues with both of my kids. I hope
all continues to go well with your daughter and you.


--- In [email protected], "jlh44music"
<jlh44music@...> wrote:
>
> "Michelle Leifur Reid" <pamperedmichelle@> wrote:
> > Jann, I totally understand your concerns. You could be talking
> about my daughter, except she does more RP on AIM than anything
else.>>
>
> What's RP? Haven't seen that one before.
>
> > If this guy has your phone number (which with a cell phone he
might
> just)then he also has access to find out where you live and who
you
> are (reverse number look up). Google your phone number and see
what
> you come up with. It can be eye opening.>>
>
> A while back there was info on how to block your number from
showing
> up on the internet, which I did to all ours (home and cell) plus
my
> dad's. I doesn't show up when you google at least!
>
> Actually, a lot has happened since I posted! The same night, she
> wanted to IM with me (she likes to talk to me this way when it's
> something "sensitive", she has a hard time with face to face
> conversations). We talked about a few "chatty" things, then she
> mentioned how her headset, no actually the software, isn't working
> (she uses TeamSpeak to talk with her friends as they're playing
World
> of Warcraft) so she's talked to some friends on the phone. It was
the
> perfect opportunity for me to say "I hit the redial and a number
came
> up I didn't know", she asked if it was a guy, then she proceeded
to
> tell me it was "J" and that they enjoy talking but haven't been
able
> to online. She also said "I was kinda going behind u and dads back
> calling my friend without telling u guys, i didn't know how u guys
> would react" (I saved the words she wrote so I would be accurate).
I
> told her I was glad she felt comfortable telling me and that I
wasn't
> mad at all. Then we talked some more about safety and being
careful
> not to give out info etc. Also my concerns about the late hour
(this
> has been happening after I go to bed) and the length of
conversations
> (he's in TX, we have free nationwide). She said she doesn't feel
like
> he's a bad person and she's been very aware of possible danger
> signals. (She had an experience earlier this year with another
teen a
> couple of years older than her, they didn't talk on the phone,
only
> email and occ IM, but he started getting "pushy" and she ended it
> because of that, which made me feel more confident about her
ability
> to say "no" (in whatever form that takes - I've been
> reading "Protecting the Gift", I bought it a while back after
someone
> recommended it here but hadn't read it yet - someone mentioned it
to
> me in an email so I dug it out! Perfect timing, I highly
recommend
> it!).
>
> She had a friend over Sat and overnight, so we didn't have a
chance to
> talk any more about it until last night (or should I say this
> morning!). Her friend went home at noon (she lives in another
town)
> and she wasn't on the phone at all until after I went to bed, it
was
> about 2:30 AM. I waited a while to see how long she'd be on (her
> door was closed) then after 45 mins I knocked and said I'd
appreciate
> it if she'd not be on the phone so late and left the room. A
while
> later (after she ended the call, but also didn't come to see me,
which
> didn't surprise me) I knocked again on her door and said I'd like
to
> talk. I started out be telling her I wasn't angry. I told her
about
> my concerns, calling at such a late hour, after we've gone to bed,
> it "appears" sneaky etc etc. We talked for almost 2 hours and I
was
> relieved to hear what she had to say. She talked a lot about how
> she's very aware of how people treat her (and others), she doesn't
> hesitate to speak her mind (and that doesn't mean she's "mean",
only
> firm if necessary). She knows to end it if she's uncomfortable
(like
> this other teen I mentioned above). She's still worried I'll
explode
> because I "worry about this". I finally said that since she wants
me
> to trust her, then I ask that she trust me when I say that I'm
working
> really hard on changing that and to listen more (mutual respect).
(I
> haven't "exploded" in quite a while, but of course this is part of
our
> history, and part of our healing process).
>
> So even though I'm very tired today, it was worth it. She also
said
> she now feels more comfortable talking to me face-to-face, and
this is
> progress. I talked about how I could't talk to my mother about
things
> like this, and I don't want that kind of relationship with her.
>
> We also talked more about the things she wants to explore (dance
> lessons which start the end of the month, horseback riding, which
> means she needs to get up before 3 or 4 in the afternoon to go
visit
> different places to find a good fit, just going someplace that
> interests either of us). She says she'll get up (and get to bed
> earlier, well, that's hard for her because she hits her stride
after
> midnight!) if we've got something planned, but she doesn't know
how to
> take the initiative, she still wants me to help her find
opportunities.
>
> So, it's a "work in progress" having a teen. But much better than
I
> remember it being when I was that age (and not the "horrible teen
> years" people (who don't get unschooling) love to roll their eyes
> about when I mention my daughter's age (sigh....).
> Thanks again for everyone's input!
> Jann
>

Solé

I also really apreciate that you shared this with us. I find it
incredible how quick, after all, trust can be rebuild. I thought it
would take ages! Now I'm unschooling for only three weeks or so, and
we've been experiencing things like she (7) 'll ask extremely
politely for help, which she never did before, I always ended up
yelling "WHY don't you just ASK for help??" WOW, we were so stunned
yesterday when she couldn't reach the toilet paper but was sitting on
the toilet already, and asked us instead of starting to whine. We
think that this is also just trusting in us again, that when she'll
ask for help, she'll really get it, so she doesn't have to make up a
show.

What I don't understand is why you don't want her to talk on the
phone when it is that late? Just because it seems "sneaky"? I mean...
isn't it maybe, because then you cannot control it at all, or because
then you'll not know how long it was, or... ? It seems kind of
arbitrary a request, not to call late, even though you don't make it
an official prohibition. Because why shouldn't she? He's awake, she's
awake, they are in the middle of their "days", she's not disturbing
anybody, AND she can be in privacy. So what is it, really...

Greetings
Johanna


Am 11.09.2006 um 19:35 schrieb Vanessa:

> Thank you for sharing this. It helps, because my son is pre-teen,
> so by you talking about this it helps me to see the things that can
> go on, and how to work on trust issues with both of my kids. I hope
> all continues to go well with your daughter and you.
>