Mary Alice Madaris

So I posted a while back about the difficulties of trying to sleep during the day with two kids unschooling in the house. It has worked for years but has just lately started to get harder. Mostly because I am trying to do things right.

When I try doing things right, try considering everyone's needs, try finding solutions everyone can enjoy...I just end up feeling a thousand times worse when I inevitably fail.

Today:
6.5 year old comes upstairs to wake me to tell me that 11.5 year old will not play Sonic Heroes with him.
I have a brief interlude with him in which I attempt to explore the depth of his commitment to play said game. I come to the conclusion after talking to him for a few minutes that the reason he wants to play Sonic Heroes with his big brother is simply because his big brother does NOT want to...but I was willing to admit I could be projecting a bit...although he and I did talk about that and he (the 6.5 yr old) did agree that that was probably true.
I come downstairs to discover that a totally different game is in the console. That said game is in console and paused because big brother had gone to the bathroom after getting little brother through a hard part in this other game at his request.
I sit on the floor with everyone. I talk about finding answers we are all happy with. I probe to see what everyone wants. I go to the bathroom and come back and they are playing checkers. Great!
No. They play checkers and I referee. 6.5 year old is learning about rules. Ok. 6.5 year old gets bored. Game over.
Okay. Now what does everyone want? Oh they start picking or something at each other and I lose it. I yell extremely loudly about trying to do the RIGHT THING here and couldn't they at least TRY to help me do that?
They stop bickering and stare in shame.
I lose track of events because now I am inwardly wallowing in remorse and shame.My favorite pass-time.
I ask again what anyone would like to do. Watch TV? Okay, big kid wants to watch TV so I send him up into my bedroom to watch TV--hell, it's not like I am SLEEPING up there, right?
HE starts crying. Why? I don't get it? Because I am yelling? I mean it, you really can go upstairs and watch TV and I really am trying not to yell and I am sorry.
Little brother has no idea what to do now.
Play Sonic. NO, play the one we don't have any more. Well, duh, I want to say, we don't have that one any more, we only rented that one!! But instead I try to get him set up with a game. He starts getting it ready, says he is fine to do it on his own and I go upstairs to try to go back to sleep (right...)
I get up there and even though the big kid is watching cartoons, I start crying myself to sleep. Except without the sleep. I wonder if unschooling or non-coercive parenting or consensual living is even remotely possible when one parent works 12 hour night shifts. Why bother? I rarely came upstairs and sobbed silently into my pillow when I would stomp down the steps to yell that I didn't care what they did, they just didn't need to wake me unless the house was on fire....and then they would find ways to entertain themselves all day.

How can I convey that same urgency without being mean? How could I even think that I could be their partner if I feel that way about sleeping?

But...before everyone goes and gives the most UNhelpful advice of all (change your schedule, quit your job blah blah blah)...

How is this much different from a family in which the kids like to stay up at night and somebody has to sleep for work in the morning, or because they *have* to sleep or they are mean and crazy?!?


It seemed that my working the night shift was the best possible solution. We aren't that into voluntary poverty. Simplicity, yes to some extent. I stretch dollars. But we are buying a house, 2 vehicles and a heck of a lot of student loans. My mother lives with us and doesn't help with living expenses aside from food. I am a night person through and through. I work 3 nights a week and get to be here and available as needed, even if I am not at my finest. It feels right.

I just wish there was a way to ease into this more. I try saying yes. I have gotten better at it.

I forget to build up rather than tear down. I forget what is really important in these moments. Could one of you please monitor my audio feed and intervene as needed? <bwg>

DH likes to pose the idea that I have chosen this path just because it *is* so difficult in order to raise my ideals and set myself up for failure. I have wondered the same thing. I have been known to do so in the past.

Please help. Is it unreasonable to tell them to let me sleep 3 days a week for a few uninterrupted hours providing they aren't really in need of my intervention? But who am I to say when they really need me?

In theory, I don't mind waking up for every little thing. I want them to know they can trust me, that I am on their side.

In practice I am a monster when I wake up. Fear me! I discovered that about me when the oldest was a newborn--if my feet have to touch the floor I go into rage mode. So we did the family bed after a week of hysterical crying on my part because I hated myself for feeling such 'untoward' feelings toward my newborn. That worked great for us! No more raging mommy, only well-rested rolling over in bed mommy!

But they are older, this is daytime. They get bored.

Last week I bought cool stuff for the 6.5 year old to do while I was sleeping. HE left the lids off the markers. He still complained. Okay-- I get it. What he needs apparently is ME. But I need to rest...or they need to wake up and get their mommy fix on before I go to sleep. I am just grumpy when I wake up.

I could stay up. But then I lack the mental faculties to really do my best brainstorming. If they could plan ahead and know going into the day that they need to be in charge of the activities, then it might work better.

There may be too many questions here, but I had to pour out my heart. I had a meltdown last week in the midst of PMS whose major recurring theme was something along the lines of "@!%#$ unschooling, I don't need this baggage and shame!!"

I really am a perfectly reasonable and logical person who understands USing in theory in so many levels. But I fail in practice.

I hope I get more than ONE response this time.

Mary Alice


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Michelle Leifur Reid

On 9/5/06, Mary Alice Madaris <meri_aliss@...> wrote:
>
>
> How can I convey that same urgency without being mean? How could I even
> think that I could be their partner if I feel that way about sleeping?


But...before everyone goes and gives the most UNhelpful advice of all
> (change your schedule, quit your job blah blah blah)...
>
> How is this much different from a family in which the kids like to stay up
> at night and somebody has to sleep for work in the morning, or because they
> *have* to sleep or they are mean and crazy?!?


When our children were little and being their night-owlish selves (my girls
usually go to bed between midnight and 3am) one of us was awake with them.
Now my girls are older and they understand that there are others in the
house that have a need to sleep. They cook, play games, role play, read,
watch movies, surf, chat with their night-owlish friends. They keep it to a
dull roar and keep it to the back of the house where they know they won't
wake people up.

How is this different from your situation? Your children (at least your
6yo) are younger and still need a mindful parent. How are you being a
mindful parent if you are only wanting sleep and for them to leave you
alone?

While you may find this to be UNhelpful, I think that it is important to
look at your job and how it is impacting your family. Is there *no* way in
which you could change your job so that you can be more participating than
yelling and sobbing and sleeping during the times it is evident that they
need you? Can you get your mother in on this? Where is the other parent?
They still need you and they are trying to tell you that. It sounds like
they don't have the skills needed in order to play quietly by themselves so
you can rest. Obviously what is happening now isn't working, so something
needs to change. Which is easier to move? Muhammad or the mountain? Which
are you going to be? You have *chosen* to work at night because it works
best for *you* but what works best for your family as a whole?





--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesa ODaniel

<Mary Alice wrote:
>I hope I get more than ONE response this time.<

**We're all just moms like yourself - some of us have been doing this longer
and some of us (like myself) recently started exploring the world of RU. We
are not magicians.


>There may be too many questions here, but I had to pour out my heart. I had
>a meltdown last week in the midst of PMS whose major recurring theme was
>something along the lines of "@!%#$ unschooling, I don't need this baggage
>and shame!!"<

**I think that is what this list is about - being able to pour your heart
out about the struggles as you learn to put RU into practice in your life.
However, the only baggage and shame might be coming from yourself. We aren't
trying to make people feel bad about themselves or their decisions - only to
question, think and explore - and it sounds like you're doing that. It's not
always easy to find answers in this way - it can unearth some not-so-fun
emotions, memories and behaviors.

>I get up there and even though the big kid is watching cartoons, I start
>crying myself to sleep. Except without the sleep. I wonder if unschooling
>or non-coercive parenting or consensual living is even remotely possible
>when one parent works 12 hour night shifts. Why bother? I rarely came
>upstairs and sobbed silently into my pillow when I would stomp down the
>steps to yell that I didn't care what they did, they just didn't need to
>wake me unless the house was on fire....and then they would find ways to
>entertain themselves all day.

**It's tough to operate without sleep. Kids have meltdowns when they are too
tired and so do adults. It is important for you to work out a sleep schedule
and still be available to your children. Maybe you could sit down with the
kids (when you're not angry or tired) and ask for their help in coming up
with ideas so that you can get some sleep and still be there for them. Maybe
working together on a schedule or having a system of some sort (that THEY
are involved in creating) so that they can respect your needs and still get
what they need from you (and it really sounds like the kids all need you
more than they are getting right now). They might surprise you with the
ideas they have and with how well they respect the plan they come up with.

**There was a discussion a while back (I think it was on this forum) about a
difficult father at home all the time when the mom was trying to unschool
and the kids and mom had to walk on eggshells all day or get yelled at, he
didn't like their behavior and really didn't sound like his relationship was
very strong with anyone in the home. Some people thought that school would
be a better environment for these kids than the alternative in their home.
I'm not in your home so I'm not sure other than from these posts but it
sounds like there is hardly any REAL interaction between you and the kids
when you are trying to get your sleep. I wonder how you might have handled
all this in your past "traditional" ways. Are you saying that you would
usually just tell them to not wake you unless the house was on fire and
leave them to themselves? How much do you think THEY got out of these old
interactions? How much did YOU get out of these interactions? They might get
more out of being in a school of some sort if the alternative is to be at
home with only their siblings and no real quality time with a parent to help
them throughout their day. This is one of the reasons why I'm not so keen on
a Sudbury type school since there is no constant parental availability and
opportunity for interaction. Again, I'm not in your home to tell for sure
(you know best), but are these days when you are recovering from work really
enriching your relationship with your kids?

**Finally, I don't know that anyone here on the list will have an ultimate
solution that's right for you. I do think that many people will offer up
some questions that you might want to ask yourself (if you haven't already).
Maybe there will be a few little suggestions here and there but I think you
already know that to make it work you're going to probably need to make some
changes (either in work schedule, sleep schedule, etc.). I hope you find the
"answers" you're seeking.


Lesa O'Daniel, AAHCC
Instructor, Bradley Method� of Natural Childbirth
323-541-5515
http://www.bradleybirth.com/ndweb.asp?ID=O123&Count=N

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Solé

Hello Mary,

I'm totally new to unschooling so I cannot give any professional
advice. First of all, I liked your post! :-) I like your writing
style :-) Just as a side note.

I don't think you should quit your job. Sometimes this just doesn't
work. I mean, really try to see if there are any options with the
job, changing schedules etc – but if there are not, then this is
really unhelpful.

Sure, they need you, but for how many hours are you asking? You said
"a few hours", so I'll presume 2? 3? maximum 4? 5 would be already
more than half a night's sleep so it's not "a few". I'm positive that
there is some creative way out there for your sleep. I used to not
want children just because I knew I wouldn't be able to sleep through
the first year or more!!! So I can totally understand your need :-)

In Scott Noelle's first (free) Podcast, he talks about the words
"needs" vs. "desire", this may be helpful, you might want to check it
out http://www.enjoyparenting.com/dgn/intro

Maybe it helps talking to them when you are not angry about sleep,
about how everyone needs and wants it, and about why you need to do
it during the day.Today, my dd (7) wanted me to buy a game, but we
can't buy it yet, we need to get the second half of the money we get
each month, only we get it in the middle of it. She knew that we had
gotten money recently and when I said, we can't buy it now, we have
to wait a week, she didn't understand. Normally I would have just
said "no" and not explained anything. But recently she discovered my
calculator and has been playing around with it and having fun. So
(now that we are unschooling and I'm explaining the real nos) I took
it and showed her how much income we have (we have a detailed list),
and how much we have to spend, and when we get all that money and
when we have to spend it. For her it was really "Aha" and she really
apreciated that I took the time and explained all of that and she
accepted the no, because of truely understanding the conditions,
which is only fair. I mean REALLY talking, explaining everything,
not just half of the truth, but also why you chose to work at nights
(to be able to be with them during the day – (ask yourself: is the
reason why you are doing this really happening or are you rather only
sleeping during the days? Maybe it would be easier then for them if
you jsut worked during the day and they wouldn't have you at all -
but this is just a side note and not trying to tell you to quit the
job. Just in case the outcome is the same as if you just worked
during the day, you might better just do that then!)). Why you need
to do so (money, and why, how much is really needed and so on), why
your husband cannot stay at home (more income maybe or whatever the
reason) and so on... If your 11 yr old understands better than your 6
yr old, he might want to help you out with this problem. Maybe both
understand very well! Maybe your son would agree Babysitting for a
while or so? And since the question about giving your children money
arised here recently and I read that some unschoolers let their kids
do some jobs for money – maybe you like the idea of having your son
do this (although I don't really like that idea... well I dunno yet,
I haven't thought about it thoughtfully yet), but just in case you
have been thinking of hiring a babysitter, maybe his brother would be
better and you are still available anyway in case of emergency.

Another thing is.. maybe you can move the TV somewhere else, so you
don't have to let them watch in your bedroom – or you could sleep
somewhere else? Guest room? mother's room? kids room? So at least
this part :

"hell, it's not like I am SLEEPING up there, right?"

of your annoyment would vanish :-) So at least, if at some point they
really choose to watch TV while you sleep, you wont get interrupted
by the TV.

Hm what else... maybe they need more input on what they could really
do with that time! Maybe you could collect things during the week
which could be interesting (http://sandradodd.com/strewing & http://
sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore) and hand them out on these days, so there
is something fun and new to do?

Maybe it would work if they could at least be with you, even if you
sleep, so it would be get the TV, the console, the games the books
the magazines and the toys TO your bedroom, ... or get yourself to
the kids room and you are there, but sleeping, and they are with you?
When my daughter was younger, i found that it really helped to at
least doze while she was playing. But I could be still be right there
if she needed me. Maybe they would even be respectful and quiet while
you sleep and maybe that would be boring after a while anyway and
they could go somewhere else. And maybe, just as with every limits
you set – the more there is limited mom, the more they want her. So
maybe being available somehow although you sleep would help. This
would require you not to yell and be angry though, or else it is not
really a choice. Advice about hot not to yell and be angry gives
Scott Noelle again :-D I found his texts very helpful at least.

Another idea is maybe not to go to sleep at a special bedtime on
these three days, but to go to bed when you feel they are into
something now (maybe you already do this!). Like when people tell
young parents to sleep when their baby is asleep (instead of trying
to condition the baby to sleep when the *parent* needs to sleep). So
you are there for them *first* and as soon as you see they are hooked
up into something and won't need you for a while, you can say what
you are going to do now "I want to sleep now – if anyone wants to
sleep with me, feel free to join", that sounds better then putting an
expectation in it: "I really need to sleep now, so just DON'T wake me
up, OK?" That already tells your children you are expecting them to
wake you up anyway. And check out what Scott says about "needing"
something, I found it interesting.

Oh and I remember on some homepage of unschooling parents I read that
sometimes they would plan the day in the morning so that everybody
could get things done. i tried that here and it was good especially
when I was planning to get my needs met as well. So everyone has to
say what he wants to do, and then you'll try to schedule it a bit, so
that it fits best. So 6yerold wants to go to the museum, watch Movie
X, read book Y and eat cookies and 11yr bring the books back to the
library, also watch Movie X now that you mentioned it, play game Y
and chek emails, you want to get the laundry done, read your
newspaper, call XY and sleep. So you can then try to schedule it
like: First we'll go to the museum and on the way home we can go to
the library and deliver the books, we can buy something cookies, go
home, while you read book Y with 6yr old, 11yr could play game Y and
when they watch the movie together you could sleep meanwhile. So
everybodies wishes is respected and they know from the beginning that
a) their needs will be respected even though you want to sleep b) you
will want to sleep sometime c) what to do while you sleep. I guess
schedules are not really "unschooling", but if you keep it flexible
and don't force them to do the things they had planned until they
changed their minds... it could work :-)

And also, don't think that in "normal" schooled families, the parents
are never frustrated like you are now :-) I often cried because it
"didn't work" in this or the other way. So this should not be the
reason why you stop unschooling.

Oh and this: http://home.earthlink.net/%7Efetteroll/rejoycing/
commitments%20obligation%20responsi/haveto.html may be applied to
your problem as well.. (and maybe the other responses on "respect"
on her website)

What is your job btw? How is your exact schedule? And how is the
schedule of your husband and of your mom? Maybe there are other
creative ways to get some more sleep!

Johanna

P.S.: if I gave any unappropriate advice which is really not
unschooling, please tell me, so I can learn :-)

Am 05.09.2006 um 18:45 schrieb Mary Alice Madaris:

> So I posted a while back about the difficulties of trying to sleep
> during the day with two kids unschooling in the house. It has
> worked for years but has just lately started to get harder. Mostly
> because I am trying to do things right.
> ...
> How can I convey that same urgency without being mean? How could I
> even think that I could be their partner if I feel that way about
> sleeping?
>

Deb Lewis

***But...before everyone goes and gives the most UNhelpful advice of all
(change
your schedule, quit your job blah blah blah)...***

The advice these volunteers offer is up to them, not you. You do get to
read or delete, use or discard the advice.

I'm in the middle of a migraine but I have some thoughts simmering and will
post them after a while, when my eyeballs aren't screaming for me get away
from the screen. <g>

One thing though, about this:

***Please help. Is it unreasonable to tell them to let me sleep 3 days a
week for a
few uninterrupted hours providing they aren't really in need of my
intervention?
But who am I to say when they really need me?***

How many hours sleep do you need? If it's only five or six hours, three
days a week would it be possible for you to have a teen helper or an adult
friend over to play with your kids while you sleep? Maybe you could work
out some kind of trade with another mom. Maybe your big kid could stay
home and your little kid could go to play at a friends house?

***But...before everyone goes and gives the most UNhelpful advice***
***I hope I get more than ONE response this time.***

People might offer more ideas you if seemed interested in listening. ; )

Deb Lewis

Angela

I think you either need to hire a sitter or find them someplace safe to go
while you sleep. Maybe you could work something out with another homeschool
family. Maybe they�d be better off in school than to wake a raging mommy.




Angela


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tracy

I really need advice on how to deal with my youngest daughter's temper.
Kenzie is 7 years old and is a ball of energy. The problem is when her
older sister, Kayla, doesn't want to do what Kenzie wants (like play
dolls or a board game). She refuses to play by herself.

She explodes and starts saying the most hateful things or starts crying
as loud as she possibly can. She also does this with me if I can't give
her whatever it is she wants immediately - out in public or at home.
I'm at a loss as to how to deal with this. Reasoning doesn't
help....much of the time it seems to make it worse.

Any advice?

~ Tracy

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "Tracy"
<rosehavencottage@...> wrote:
>
> I really need advice on how to deal with my youngest daughter's
temper.
> Kenzie is 7 years old and is a ball of energy. The problem is when
her
> older sister, Kayla, doesn't want to do what Kenzie wants (like
play
> dolls or a board game). She refuses to play by herself.
>
> She explodes and starts saying the most hateful things or starts
crying
> as loud as she possibly can. She also does this with me if I can't
give
> her whatever it is she wants immediately - out in public or at
home.
> I'm at a loss as to how to deal with this. Reasoning doesn't
> help....much of the time it seems to make it worse.
>


Has she always been this way or is it a new thing?

JulieH

Tracy

She has always been this way, but it seems to ebb and flow.

~ Tracy

> > She explodes and starts saying the most hateful things or starts
> crying
> > as loud as she possibly can. She also does this with me if I
can't
> give
> > her whatever it is she wants immediately - out in public or at
> home.
> > I'm at a loss as to how to deal with this. Reasoning doesn't
> > help....much of the time it seems to make it worse.
> >
>
>
> Has she always been this way or is it a new thing?
>
> JulieH
>

Wildflower Car

My concern would be why is she doing this? I can imagine that reasoning
doesn't work. The solution doesn't lay in fixing the end result, but in the
reason behind it. Maybe she needs more things to do? Does she get much
physical play? She might have trouble explaining her own actions to you or
even understanding it herself. The fact that it comes and goes says to me it
isn't likely a brain problem.

My oldest daughter was like this for a while. We didn't punish or even react
much to her directly when it happened. We starting seeing that when she had
more things to do to release her energy both physically and vocally, she
stopped. We also gave her lots of extra love. It may be as simple as a
reassuring pat on the back or some one on one time with us.

Does she see you or other adults express emotions? It's important that she
see's that emotions are normal and expressible. I am a yelling person. Not
just in anger, but I am loud in a lot of things. As time has passed I saw
that my children understood loud was okay no matter what they were doing,
but they didn't have a good understanding of how being loud affected people
around them. As we have all grown, we have learned to use our loud voice as
needed, but also see that it was a freedom to be loud, not a license to
scream. Does that make sense?

Much Love,
Wildflower



>From: "Tracy" <rosehavencottage@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Need help
>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:40:13 -0000
>
>She has always been this way, but it seems to ebb and flow.
>
>~ Tracy
>
> > > She explodes and starts saying the most hateful things or starts
> > crying
> > > as loud as she possibly can. She also does this with me if I
>can't
> > give
> > > her whatever it is she wants immediately - out in public or at
> > home.
> > > I'm at a loss as to how to deal with this. Reasoning doesn't
> > > help....much of the time it seems to make it worse.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Has she always been this way or is it a new thing?
> >
> > JulieH
> >
>
>
>

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Now you can see trouble�before he arrives
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Tracy

She doesn't want to go outside very often since we've recently moved
(about 2.5 months ago) because there is only one little girl who
lives on the street and she is never outside. She used to play
outside all the time when there were other kids to play with. Right
now the girls are outside playing in the water hose. :)

I try to pick up new, interesting things for them to explore and play
with as finances allow. We go to the library often, run errands, and
go to the park or the beach (when the heat is not so extreme). They
help me bake cookies. We watch movies together. They play on the
computer.

The main conflict happens when Kenzie wants to play with Kayla and
Kayla doesn't want to at that moment.

~ Tracy

--- In [email protected], "Wildflower Car"
<unschoolfool@...> wrote:
>
> My concern would be why is she doing this? I can imagine that
reasoning
> doesn't work. The solution doesn't lay in fixing the end result,
but in the
> reason behind it. Maybe she needs more things to do? Does she get
much
> physical play? She might have trouble explaining her own actions to
you or
> even understanding it herself. The fact that it comes and goes says
to me it
> isn't likely a brain problem.
>
> My oldest daughter was like this for a while. We didn't punish or
even react
> much to her directly when it happened. We starting seeing that when
she had
> more things to do to release her energy both physically and
vocally, she
> stopped. We also gave her lots of extra love. It may be as simple
as a
> reassuring pat on the back or some one on one time with us.
>
> Does she see you or other adults express emotions? It's important
that she
> see's that emotions are normal and expressible. I am a yelling
person. Not
> just in anger, but I am loud in a lot of things. As time has passed
I saw
> that my children understood loud was okay no matter what they were
doing,
> but they didn't have a good understanding of how being loud
affected people
> around them. As we have all grown, we have learned to use our loud
voice as
> needed, but also see that it was a freedom to be loud, not a
license to
> scream. Does that make sense?
>
> Much Love,
> Wildflower