Kimberly

Merry Meet,

Here in my home we are learning. Our resent lession has been in how
to NOT punish when that is the action we would normally had taken.

I tried to talk to hubby about this, but with all his working, it
must have slipped his mind. One night, it all came to a head. Let me
explain.

We are driving home, almost there. Hubby stops at our mail box a
few blocks from home. Leaves the car running, gets out to get the
mail. Crystal jumps out of her seat and runs to the fron the van to
sit in his seat. Car still running. As always it seems, she pays no
attention when getting to the seat and steps on the eggs we just got
from the store along with other things. I try to keep my cool. I let
her know what she did and that it was not a good thing. But before I
could finish talking to her, hubby is on his way back to the his
seat and sees Crystal and start with his command voice to tell her
she is wrong and to get out of his seat, and that he has warned her
before and yadda yadda yadda. She freaks, steps on things again as
she scrables back to her seat to buckle up. He gets in notices she
stepped in things, and keeps on his lecture, she is crying now and
upset and will not stop to listen, so he gets more upset. I try to
talk to her, to get her to calm down, and hubby keeps interupting in
that voice of his that promotes nothing with our little one. Finally
I have had enough, and I yell at him to be quite that he is not
helping. And I do mean I yell. At this point, they both shut up. And
I explain to hubby that we no longer treat her that way and there is
a better way. He tried to argue with me, but I keep on him about it,
trying to get him to listen. It is heated for a few moments as we
drive home. I feel badly that Crystal is viewing us not agreeing but
it just has to be done. We pull into the drive way and I talk to
Crystal as he grumbles. I explain what she did, how she broke yummy
food and we could not go buy more right now, and how that makes
Daddy upset. I let them BOTH know, getting in his seat was not a
biggie, I was right there. He agrees with that now that he has
settled down. I then tell Crystal she is not in trouble as her Daddy
said she was but that she needs to try and make it better. I ask her
for ideas. This is new to her so she has no clue. I give her some
ideas, like helping Daddy bring in the bags or helping us put the
food away, or maybe making him a picture of her not stepping on the
eggs. She fights this new change a little but in the end says ok.
She brings some bags in, drops them in front of the door, and I
trip. Her Daddy is not happy "She knows better" but he grumbles to
himself. She then goes to make a picture. What she comes back with
makes everything ok again, and then some.

She brings her daddy a picture that stuns him. She traced her foot
on the paper, and then drew eggs far away from her foot print. We
both almost fell over laughing. He let her know that the idea was
for her to not step on things anymore, and she did step on the paper
to trace it, but that it was not hurting the paper so that was ok.
Always the soldier that one. LOL We really expected some kind of
stick figure, maybe the van, and some food. No idea she would see it
like that.

So in short, we are now on a new path, of trying to fix things
rather then punish. For punishing teaches her things that we do not
wish her to learn (How to get away with things, thinking that we are
against her)

I share all this with all of you because it is thanks to those open
minded that we feel we can do this, as we have no other support.
Thank You!

Blessings,
Kimberly
Mother to Crystal 4
Surrogate mother to Emma and Grace
Army wife to SGT. Perfect! :)

Robyn Coburn

<<<I then tell Crystal she is not in trouble as her Daddy
said she was but that she needs to try and make it better. I ask her
for ideas. This is new to her so she has no clue.
[snip]
So in short, we are now on a new path, of trying to fix things
rather then punish. For punishing teaches her things that we do not
wish her to learn (How to get away with things, thinking that we are
against her)>>>


Hi Kimberly,
{{{{{hugs}}}}}

It seems like you are trying so hard, and have lots of challenges. Just
trying to see the path is hard when one person in your relationship is
looking in another direction, let alone move along it.

Just to push you a little further....

Why did you feel she had to "try and make it better"? I think it is very
dangerous to make children feel that they are responsible for an adults
feelings - indeed that anyone is actually responsible for some one else's
feelings. Be careful that she does not start to believe that she has to keep
Daddy happy at the expense of her own selfhood.

Everyone has accidents and drops stuff, and I would consider stepping on the
groceries in the realm of an accidental action. If you had dropped the eggs
while putting them away, would you have had to give dh some gift to make it
up? If he had done so, would he have made it up to Crystal and you? I'm
guessing not, other than to just say something like "shucks, sorry honey".
BTW I always put the groceries in the trunk - Jayn has a tendency just to
step on whatever is in her way also.

Have you done much reading on the concept of "Principles instead of Rules"?
The idea is that the Principles that we live by apply to all members of the
family, and each member lives up to them as much as they are developmentally
able. One of the principles we have is "Safety First". In recovery Spiritual
Principles are expressed as single words or short phrases, the opposite of
Character Defects. Examples are Kindness, Honesty, Thoughtfulness of others,
Joyfulness. Other people have other ways of expressing them. These are the
blueprint or map of the path that is the alternative to punishing and
shaming.

Your dh would get so much out of Ben Lovejoy's conference workshop on this
issue. Also Ben is a former military man, so if anyone could empathize with
his journey it would be Ben. Gosh I wish you could swing being there!

Robyn L. Coburn

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earthmothergypsy

Kimberly,

Thanks for sharing this! We too are in a transition in parenting as
dh learns a new way of doing things. ;) I have had to handle things
the same way with him when he slipped into old ways of parenting and
totally blows what we have been working so hard on. This actually
happens often, because dh is a creature of habit (and was an only
child with a disfunctional mother). Sometimes it is like we are
parenting kids and husbands. lol!!!

I love the way you handled this with your dd. She had to have
learned more from it than from a scolding, or anything else, because
it made her think about what she did so SHE can correct the behavior.

This story brings to mind the idea of a parent that punishes a child
for doing something that was also a mistake of the parent.
Let me explain: If dh had gotten angry for a child jumping out of
their seat into the driver's seat of the "running" van and something
bad happened (or not) because of this action -though the child
shouldn't have moved from their seat -dh would have been equally
guilty for the happening, because HE was the one that left the van
running in the first place. Does that make sense? Kids will be
kids, and I think it is our place to think one step ahead (the what
ifs) and make sure things are safe. Like turning off the van when
you get out (and even take the keys with you!). I actually do this
type of "thinking ahead" all the time and it saves me sooo many
headaches. :)

~Amanda





--- In [email protected], "Kimberly"
<Kontessa_Rose@h...> wrote:
>
> Merry Meet,
>
> Here in my home we are learning. Our resent lession has been in
how
> to NOT punish when that is the action we would normally had taken.
>
> I tried to talk to hubby about this, but with all his working, it
> must have slipped his mind. One night, it all came to a head. Let
me
> explain.
>
> We are driving home, almost there. Hubby stops at our mail box a
> few blocks from home. Leaves the car running, gets out to get the
> mail. Crystal jumps out of her seat and runs to the fron the van to
> sit in his seat. Car still running. As always it seems, she pays no
> attention when getting to the seat and steps on the eggs we just
got
> from the store along with other things. I try to keep my cool. I
let
> her know what she did and that it was not a good thing. But before
I
> could finish talking to her, hubby is on his way back to the his
> seat and sees Crystal and start with his command voice to tell her
> she is wrong and to get out of his seat, and that he has warned her
> before and yadda yadda yadda. She freaks, steps on things again as
> she scrables back to her seat to buckle up. He gets in notices she
> stepped in things, and keeps on his lecture, she is crying now and
> upset and will not stop to listen, so he gets more upset. I try to
> talk to her, to get her to calm down, and hubby keeps interupting
in
> that voice of his that promotes nothing with our little one.
Finally
> I have had enough, and I yell at him to be quite that he is not
> helping. And I do mean I yell. At this point, they both shut up.
And
> I explain to hubby that we no longer treat her that way and there
is
> a better way. He tried to argue with me, but I keep on him about
it,
> trying to get him to listen. It is heated for a few moments as we
> drive home. I feel badly that Crystal is viewing us not agreeing
but
> it just has to be done. We pull into the drive way and I talk to
> Crystal as he grumbles. I explain what she did, how she broke yummy
> food and we could not go buy more right now, and how that makes
> Daddy upset. I let them BOTH know, getting in his seat was not a
> biggie, I was right there. He agrees with that now that he has
> settled down. I then tell Crystal she is not in trouble as her
Daddy
> said she was but that she needs to try and make it better. I ask
her
> for ideas. This is new to her so she has no clue. I give her some
> ideas, like helping Daddy bring in the bags or helping us put the
> food away, or maybe making him a picture of her not stepping on the
> eggs. She fights this new change a little but in the end says ok.
> She brings some bags in, drops them in front of the door, and I
> trip. Her Daddy is not happy "She knows better" but he grumbles to
> himself. She then goes to make a picture. What she comes back with
> makes everything ok again, and then some.
>
> She brings her daddy a picture that stuns him. She traced her foot
> on the paper, and then drew eggs far away from her foot print. We
> both almost fell over laughing. He let her know that the idea was
> for her to not step on things anymore, and she did step on the
paper
> to trace it, but that it was not hurting the paper so that was ok.
> Always the soldier that one. LOL We really expected some kind of
> stick figure, maybe the van, and some food. No idea she would see
it
> like that.
>
> So in short, we are now on a new path, of trying to fix things
> rather then punish. For punishing teaches her things that we do not
> wish her to learn (How to get away with things, thinking that we
are
> against her)
>
> I share all this with all of you because it is thanks to those
open
> minded that we feel we can do this, as we have no other support.
> Thank You!
>
> Blessings,
> Kimberly
> Mother to Crystal 4
> Surrogate mother to Emma and Grace
> Army wife to SGT. Perfect! :)

Kimberly

Dear Robyn,

You could be very right about this. I was not trying to show her
that she is responcible for how others feel but rather that when she
does something "wrong" that she needs to try and make it better.
Your 100% right though, for most adults, if they had dropped the
eggs they would have done little more then say sorry. But we Hubby
and I try to be a little more mindful then that and so we might have
done something more, like make dinner, do the dishes, wash the
floor. Something to remind us to be more mindful, and to shop others
around us that we care to do better. To some extent I feel like she
needs to feel responcible for how she makes others feel in life. But
that line is a thin one, for we can not control how others feel.
Maybe something best left for her to see latter. I think I shall
still strive to show her that she does have the power to fix things
when they are wrong and that she should try. Far too few people have
little regard for others, maybe we are selfish creatures my nature,
but I will not raise her to the kind of person who throws trash on
the ground, playing music at a valume that disturbs other, or uses
language that shows no respect for others or herself. I could be
wrong.

>
> Why did you feel she had to "try and make it better"? >



We have looked at every possible way to get there it just not seem
possible this year and that is very sad as my mother leaves 2 hours
away from the conference and we couls stay with her. But alas, that
is 1000 miles away from here and our situation is not looking out.
Our roomate is not holding up her side of the deal and has been here
for 5 months. Now she is medically ill, spent a week in the
hospital, and is on bed rest for the next week. Though she seems to
be spending most it at her friends house on the couch she says.
-sigh- I wish we could make it. I know it would help so very
much. Next years is going to be where?

Blessings,
Kimmy

> Your dh would get so much out of Ben Lovejoy's conference workshop
on this
> issue. Also Ben is a former military man, so if anyone could
empathize with
> his journey it would be Ben. Gosh I wish you could swing being
there!
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
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[email protected]

In a message dated 7/10/2004 7:28:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Kontessa_Rose@... writes:

Your 100% right though, for most adults, if they had dropped the
eggs they would have done little more then say sorry. But we Hubby
and I try to be a little more mindful then that and so we might have
done something more, like make dinner, do the dishes, wash the
floor. <<<<<

That sounds more like guilt. If you're sorry, be sorry. Apologize.


>>>Something to remind us to be more mindful, and to shop others
around us that we care to do better. To some extent I feel like she
needs to feel responcible for how she makes others feel in life. <<<<

She's NOT responsible for how others feel!!! No one is! In the exact same
situation, different people have different feelings, and no one is responsible
for someone else's feelings.



>>>>. I think I shall
still strive to show her that she does have the power to fix things
when they are wrong and that she should try. <<<<<

And when she's older, she would probably drive back to the store and replace
the eggs. But doing the dishes for broken eggs doesn't fix anything. The
eggs are still broken. And she might resent washing the dishes. What if she
accidently breaks a dish? Should she clean the toilet? <g>


>>>Far too few people have
little regard for others, maybe we are selfish creatures my nature,
but I will not raise her to the kind of person who throws trash on
the ground, playing music at a valume that disturbs other, or uses
language that shows no respect for others or herself.<<<<

Then model respectful language, not littering, and low music volumes. Talk
about why *you* choose to do these things.

~Kelly






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<>>>>. I think I shall
still strive to show her that she does have the power to fix things
when they are wrong and that she should try. <<<<<

And when she's older, she would probably drive back to the store and
replace the eggs. But doing the dishes for broken eggs doesn't fix anything.
The eggs are still broken. And she might resent washing the dishes. What if
she accidently breaks a dish? Should she clean the toilet? <g>>>>

Well this was part of what I was getting at - the imposed consequence of
making a drawing seemed really arbitrary, and a good way to discourage
drawing for pleasure.

She's just a little girl - they aren't always as in control of their bodies
to watch where they step. Your dh was the one who evidently lost his temper
and made her afraid. She now might think that eggs and illustrations are
more important to him than she is. Every time he is angry at her for being a
normal 4yo, it's like a little chip away of the stone block that is her
selfhood.

Robyn L. Coburn



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Valerie

> Your dh would get so much out of Ben Lovejoy's conference workshop
on this issue. Also Ben is a former military man, so if anyone could
empathize with his journey it would be Ben. Gosh I wish you could
swing being there!
>
> Robyn L. Coburn

***** Aren't tapes available for purchase?

Robyn Coburn

<<<But we Hubby
and I try to be a little more mindful then that and so we might have
done something more, like make dinner, do the dishes, wash the
floor. Something to remind us to be more mindful, and to shop others
around us that we care to do better.>>>

I'm guessing you meant "show others" here. Sometimes typos make funnies.

Holy cow, it's just a few eggs!

Accidents happen, no matter how mindful you are. If there is a huge price to
be paid every time, you will raise a girl who is scared all the time of
having some little accident. It is not about "doing better" than a child may
be capable of.


<<she does have the power to fix things
when they are wrong and that she should try. >>>

All the king's horses and all the king's men....

What I am saying is that a drawing does not fix the eggs.

Trying to fix Daddy's perfectly unreasonable anger is definitely not her job
- if you try to make it her job, or yours, the results may be sadness, pain
and less trust. Even you disagreed with his reaction - you told us so.

You don't have to make things a lesson, even a "life-lesson", for learning
to occur.

<<<little regard for others, maybe we are selfish creatures my nature,
but I will not raise her to the kind of person who throws trash on
the ground, playing music at a valume that disturbs other, or uses
language that shows no respect for others or herself. I could be
wrong.>>>

It is a particular philosophy that children are born selfish, malicious and
evil, and that constant vigilance and training is needed to root out that
"sinful nature". This belief may make it harder for anyone to Unschool
joyfully. I see the opposite in Jayn, even if she is thoughtless at times,
being only 4.5. That doesn't mean that I don't sometimes worry about how she
is being perceived by others, or wince when she says something that is less
kind. But I see it as definitely something she will do less and less of as
she continues to be treated with respect and understanding, and gains more
interpersonal relationship tools. I see those issues as *my* baggage, not
her character defects.

Are these the defining characteristics of horrible people to you? I think
there are lots worse things than these going on behind the eyes and closed
doors of perfectly respectable seeming people. It just seems really unlikely
that if you treat her with kindness and respect, and genuine understanding
for the age-related limitations of her abilities, that she will grow up so
totally the opposite of everything you model for her.

What if she goes a bit deaf and plays her music louder than you would like?
Does that make your whole parenting life a failure? I'm using an extreme
illustration to suggest that being negatively predictive, especially when
your daughter is so little, is less useful, than looking for wonder and joy
in the immediate present for moving to unschooling, which by its very nature
is unpredictable. People who have been doing it a long time can predict
reasonably accurately that children live up to (and go beyond) how well they
are treated.

Robyn L. Coburn



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[email protected]

In a message dated 7/11/2004 6:04:48 PM Central Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:


>
> <<<But we Hubby
> and I try to be a little more mindful then that and so we might have
> done something more, like make dinner, do the dishes, wash the
> floor. Something to remind us to be more mindful, and to shop others
> around us that we care to do better.>>>
>
> I'm guessing you meant "show others" here. Sometimes typos make funnies.
>
> Holy cow, it's just a few eggs!
>
> Accidents happen, no matter how mindful you are. If there is a huge price to
> be paid every time, you will raise a girl who is scared all the time of
> having some little accident. It is not about "doing better" than a child may
> be capable of.
>

i have a question..i am married to a man,who's undiagnosed mental disorder
cause soo many arguments as far as raising the kids or
''disapline/punishment''.he is on meds ,and he is better mentally,but those times do happen,im not into
spanking,,yelling ,,but when husband feels someone has done something
''wrong''...he does ,,he hasnt spanked or raised a hand to anyone in over a year,,,no
good and he knows that,but how do you handle situations with a spouse who
you feel isnt taking care of a situation the best way??my husband basiclyhas
come to see he doesnt handle conflict well.so he doesnt deal with the kids
much,,if any,,,but what about those who think they are right ,,justified,,,to yell
and someone who is too young todo anything at all except look wide eyed in
tears at the tyrrant??
i admit,,ive done it ,,no excuses,,,i do apologize when ive cooled down and
see what an a$$ ive been and they are always sweet toforgive,,,kids are that
way...

June



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Valerie

>That doesn't mean that I don't sometimes worry about how she
is being perceived by others, or wince when she says something that
is less kind. But I see it as definitely something she will do less
and less of as she continues to be treated with respect and
understanding, and gains more interpersonal relationship tools. I
see those issues as *my* baggage, not her character defects.

***** On Laurie's second birthday, my mom gave her the ugliest dress
I'd ever seen. It was Mom's idea of "how a little girl SHOULD
dress." Laurie happened to like her cowboy boots, jeans and t-
shirts. Laurie opened the dress and said, "Eeeewwww that's so ugly,"
and I inwardly cringed. Mom got upset, glared at Laurie and stomped
out of the room and said that Laurie was an inconsiderate and
ungrateful spoiled child. Laurie was hurt by Mom's words and mean
look.

She had no clue that she had hurt Mom's feelings and I didn't feel
it was a 2-year old's place to heal the wounds of a grown woman. All
Laurie understood was that her grandmother had made an ugly face at
her and called her names. If I had demanded that Laurie apologize,
imo I would have been placing my mother's feelings above Laurie's. I
consoled Laurie and later told Mom thank you for the dress but that
giving Laurie a gift in order to change who she was didn't seem like
a gift at all. 22 years later Mom STILL gets upset when she thinks
of that day. She saw/sees nothing wrong with her attitude towards
Laurie.

Laurie cringes when she thinks of what she said when she saw that
dress, but we both agree it was hideous. As she got older, of course
she learned tact and diplomacy and fakes a smile and says "thank
you" when Mom gives her gifts that go straight to Goodwill.

As parents, we have to put our children first. They need us to take
up for them. They need us to empathize with them. I doubt that my
mother's attitude will ever change. My parenting horrified her.
Laurie horrifies her. My book horrified her. I'd still be kicking my
own butt if I had fussed at Laurie that day for saying what I was
thinking just to attempt to console a woman who is inconsolable.

love, Valerie
www.ubpub.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/12/2004 5:01:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
valerie@... writes:

As parents, we have to put our children first. They need us to take
up for them. They need us to empathize with them. I doubt that my
mother's attitude will ever change. My parenting horrified her.
Laurie horrifies her. My book horrified her. I'd still be kicking my
own butt if I had fussed at Laurie that day for saying what I was
thinking just to attempt to console a woman who is inconsolable.<<<<

Well, I, for one, think your parenting was admirable, your daughter is
*virtually* delightful, and your book thoroughly enjoyable!

Thank you.

~Kelly







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kimberly

"It is a particular philosophy that children are born selfish,
malicious and
evil, and that constant vigilance and training is needed to root out
that
"sinful nature"."


Your right, some people believe all of that, but I do NOT believe
in sin, or that a child can be malicious. But I do believe that
Humans are animals with tools and that like animals we are born
selfish and caring only about ourselves, not animals that are like
to live in large groups unlike the insect ants and such. I think
that kindness and such are things kids learn. I do think though that
they learn best by example and a lession may not be the best way.

Do not asume that because I think humans are a selfish animal by
nature that I think they are born evil for I do not believe in evil,
for it is not natural.

Let me know why you think people are not born selfish because from
what I remeber of my Psyc classes, this is what many experts think
as well.

Blessings

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<Let me know why you think people are not born selfish because from
what I remeber of my Psyc classes, this is what many experts think
as well.>>>>>

First of all I care just about zip what experts teaching Psyc classes, in an
out of context to Unschooling manner, think or express in their classes,
which are not about Unschooling. If you want to spend some time researching
Unschooling, you could look at "The Unprocessed Child" by Valerie
Fitzenreiter for an astonishing story about ignorance and bias in an
"expert" teaching university level courses about child rearing, in a book
that *is* about Unschooling.

For what it is worth, I think humans and animals are born with an instinct
for self-preservation, and the fastest way to move beyond it is love, love,
love the people in your life. It is sometimes this instinct that causes
children to behave in odd ways. I also think one of the fundamental
instincts that humans have is to form communities for common good, the most
immediate one being their family.

Below are some definitions that a cursory Google search put out. I cut and
pasted. There may be others too.

Believing this kind of thing about a child might make it more difficult to
Unschool with joy. We *can* choose our beliefs. Choosing to believe that our
children are fundamentally loving, caring and want to make us proud and
happy, might make it easier to Unschool with them.


From the WorldNet Dictionary....

Selfish Person:

Definition: [n] a person who is unusually selfish

See Also: disagreeable person, dog in the manger, egocentric, egoist,
exploiter, hog, monopoliser, monopolist, monopolizer, narcissist, narcist,
opportunist, pig, self-seeker, unpleasant person, user

Selfish:

Definition: [adj] concerned chiefly or only with yourself; "Selfish men
were...trying to make capital for themselves out of the sacred cause of
civil rights"- Maria Weston Chapman

Synonyms: begrudging, egotistic, egotistical, envious, grudging,
narcissistic, self-loving, self-seeking, self-serving, stingy, ungenerous

Antonyms: unselfish

See Also: egoistic, inconsiderate


From Webster's 1913 Dictionary...

Selfish:

Definition: \Self"ish\, a.
1. Caring supremely or unduly for one's self; regarding one's
own comfort, advantage, etc., in disregard, or at the
expense, of those of others.

They judge of things according to their own private
appetites and selfish passions. --Cudworth.

In that throng of selfish hearts untrue. --Keble.

2. (Ethics) Believing or teaching that the chief motives of
human action are derived from love of self.

Hobbes and the selfish school of philosophers.
--Fleming.



Robyn L. Coburn









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Fetteroll

on 7/12/04 11:40 PM, Kimberly at Kontessa_Rose@... wrote:

> Let me know why you think people are not born selfish because from
> what I remeber of my Psyc classes, this is what many experts think
> as well.

I think people are both selfish and social creatures.

I think we're full of conflicting signals because we've evolved from
creatures that had different needs. And not just conflicts between been
independent and social, but all sorts of conflicts.

We evolved from creatures that lived alone so it made sense to put self
first. For instance, it isn't wrong for a tiger to drive another tiger out
of its territory. It's what makes sense for survival. That's just what
creatures that live independently need to do.

But when we became creatures that survived better by working together, we
didn't lose those drives that tells us thinking of ourselves is good for
survival. We just added another layer on top that told us it makes sense to
cooperate and be drawn to forming groups and doing what's necessary to keep
the group working together.

So we've naturally got two right but conflicting signals in our heads: Think
of self, think of the group.

Modeling helps kids figure out which thoughts will work best for what they
want.

Joyce