Checking in
Ren Allen
"We are living with my sis, who is ultra
traditional, until we close on our house. "
She means our other sis........:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
traditional, until we close on our house. "
She means our other sis........:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Maisha Khalfani
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
started RU when we were living at our old place in Baltimore. Now
we have to do this whole "don't touch this" "don't do that" and I
know it's hard for them. We need to find our own place ASAP!!! Of
course, you know how it is when you're around family: you have a
tendency to slide back into "family roles", and I know I've been
doing that way too much: becoming the insecure one, the one who's
not sure of what she's doing, the one who lets everyone else take
the lead.....and that's not the person I've become (can anyone else
relate to the whole family roles thing??) I have to center myself
and remember how competent and confident I am, and be that person
that shines - if for no one else for my children, so they don't
forget who they are as well.
By the way...I'm reading a book that's really helping me to not be
so stressed. It's called The Soul of the Child by Michael Gurian.
I haven't finished it, but it's been a real eye opener. I'm also
reading Siblings Without Rivalry, and boy! Do I feel like a big
boob! LOL. Especially with that whole "family roles" thing. I
don't want to do that to my children - yuck. I'm working really
hard on not being so stressed out in this situation. It's causing
me to back-track on the personal growth I'd been doing (thanks to
this group - you guys rock!!!!) Whenever I can I'll be reading the
posts. It's like my daily "fix" on how to be a mindful and loving
parent.
I'm am soooo grateful today for this group. You guys keep me sane!!!
Maisha
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>LOL - I'm glad you made that very clear Ren! LOL It is hard. We
> "We are living with my sis, who is ultra
> traditional, until we close on our house. "
>
> She means our other sis........:)
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
started RU when we were living at our old place in Baltimore. Now
we have to do this whole "don't touch this" "don't do that" and I
know it's hard for them. We need to find our own place ASAP!!! Of
course, you know how it is when you're around family: you have a
tendency to slide back into "family roles", and I know I've been
doing that way too much: becoming the insecure one, the one who's
not sure of what she's doing, the one who lets everyone else take
the lead.....and that's not the person I've become (can anyone else
relate to the whole family roles thing??) I have to center myself
and remember how competent and confident I am, and be that person
that shines - if for no one else for my children, so they don't
forget who they are as well.
By the way...I'm reading a book that's really helping me to not be
so stressed. It's called The Soul of the Child by Michael Gurian.
I haven't finished it, but it's been a real eye opener. I'm also
reading Siblings Without Rivalry, and boy! Do I feel like a big
boob! LOL. Especially with that whole "family roles" thing. I
don't want to do that to my children - yuck. I'm working really
hard on not being so stressed out in this situation. It's causing
me to back-track on the personal growth I'd been doing (thanks to
this group - you guys rock!!!!) Whenever I can I'll be reading the
posts. It's like my daily "fix" on how to be a mindful and loving
parent.
I'm am soooo grateful today for this group. You guys keep me sane!!!
Maisha
Ren Allen
"and that's not the person I've become (can anyone else
relate to the whole family roles thing??) "
Oh yes....I can totally relate. I was labeled the
"difficult/argumentative" child. Interestingly, while I'm very strong
and opinionated, I manage to get along fabulously with my friends,
coworkers and just about everyone I run into. If I have a differing
opinion...we talk and they know exactly how I feel, but it never leads
to problems.
If I start a discussion with one of my family members, it inevitably
turns WAY more aggressive and ugly than with ANYONE else!! I can
literally feel those old emotional patterns surface and the need to BE
HEARD. I got that "argumentative" label and that seemed to be the
excuse my family needed, to brush off my very strong feelings rather
than validate them when I was a child. I turn into the child that
needs validation. I get more angry than I otherwise would, because I
can literally HEAR them thinking "oh, there she goes again". ARgh.
It's tough to break out of those patterns. Our childhood has a strong
influence on us and the people that surrounded us at that time (no
matter how much we love them) can send us spiraling into old roles
that no longer serve us well.
It seems silly...but it's very real.
My well-intentioned Grandmother asked when Trevor was going to
"graduate" and take his high school tests. sigh. I could feel those
old feelings rising up, but I gave her a pat answer and started
talking about other stuff. Didn't skirt the issue, told her the truth
(homeschoolers don't need to take tests) and moved on.
Hang in there Maisha, I'm sure things will turn around soon.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
relate to the whole family roles thing??) "
Oh yes....I can totally relate. I was labeled the
"difficult/argumentative" child. Interestingly, while I'm very strong
and opinionated, I manage to get along fabulously with my friends,
coworkers and just about everyone I run into. If I have a differing
opinion...we talk and they know exactly how I feel, but it never leads
to problems.
If I start a discussion with one of my family members, it inevitably
turns WAY more aggressive and ugly than with ANYONE else!! I can
literally feel those old emotional patterns surface and the need to BE
HEARD. I got that "argumentative" label and that seemed to be the
excuse my family needed, to brush off my very strong feelings rather
than validate them when I was a child. I turn into the child that
needs validation. I get more angry than I otherwise would, because I
can literally HEAR them thinking "oh, there she goes again". ARgh.
It's tough to break out of those patterns. Our childhood has a strong
influence on us and the people that surrounded us at that time (no
matter how much we love them) can send us spiraling into old roles
that no longer serve us well.
It seems silly...but it's very real.
My well-intentioned Grandmother asked when Trevor was going to
"graduate" and take his high school tests. sigh. I could feel those
old feelings rising up, but I gave her a pat answer and started
talking about other stuff. Didn't skirt the issue, told her the truth
(homeschoolers don't need to take tests) and moved on.
Hang in there Maisha, I'm sure things will turn around soon.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Betsy Hill
**If I start a discussion with one of my family members, it inevitably
turns WAY more aggressive and ugly than with ANYONE else!! I can
literally feel those old emotional patterns surface and the need to BE
HEARD. I got that "argumentative" label and that seemed to be the
excuse my family needed, to brush off my very strong feelings rather
than validate them when I was a child.**
I got into some ugly squabbling with my brother in July, so I know
what you mean, and I've been reflecting on it.
I listened to the audio version of the book by Deborah Tannen titled
_I'm Only Saying This Because I Love You_ which is about communication
in families, especially about communication between now-adult children
and their parents or siblings. The book had some pretty good content,
and lots of examples.
I especially recommend the chapter dealing with likely differences
between how men and women feel about apologies.
Betsy
turns WAY more aggressive and ugly than with ANYONE else!! I can
literally feel those old emotional patterns surface and the need to BE
HEARD. I got that "argumentative" label and that seemed to be the
excuse my family needed, to brush off my very strong feelings rather
than validate them when I was a child.**
I got into some ugly squabbling with my brother in July, so I know
what you mean, and I've been reflecting on it.
I listened to the audio version of the book by Deborah Tannen titled
_I'm Only Saying This Because I Love You_ which is about communication
in families, especially about communication between now-adult children
and their parents or siblings. The book had some pretty good content,
and lots of examples.
I especially recommend the chapter dealing with likely differences
between how men and women feel about apologies.
Betsy
Pamela Sorooshian
On Aug 2, 2006, at 9:21 AM, Betsy Hill wrote:
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I especially recommend the chapter dealing with likely differencesCan you summarize a bit? Sounds interesting!
> between how men and women feel about apologies.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"> I especially recommend the chapter dealing with likely differences
-pam"
Yeah, I'd love to hear a synopsis on the book. It might help me not
revert to being the unheard, invalidated, angry teenager when I'm
around certain family members.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
> between how men and women feel about apologies.Can you summarize a bit? Sounds interesting!
-pam"
Yeah, I'd love to hear a synopsis on the book. It might help me not
revert to being the unheard, invalidated, angry teenager when I'm
around certain family members.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Betsy Hill
**I especially recommend the chapter dealing with likely differences
between how men and women feel about apologies.**
**Can you summarize a bit? Sounds interesting!**
OK, the book title is _I Only Say This Because I Love You_, by Deborah
Tannen. I found some quotable snippets with the search feature on Amazon.
For starters she says women generally are quick to say "I'm sorry",
but that men are less so. It seems that women may equate saying "I'm
sorry" with thinking "I sympathize" but men feel that saying "I'm
sorry" means "Yes, I am guilty; I am a terrible sinner; I abase
myself." (This is my own rephrasing.) Thus men tend to be much more
reluctant to apologize; they feel they really lose a lot of status or
face if they do apologize.
Here are a couple of (truncated) quotes:
"For many of us (more women than men), apologies come in pairs and
constitute a ritual exchange: I apologize for x, then you apologize
for y, and we both consider the matter closed."
"...because most men don't recognize the ritual nature of women's
apologies and don't expect people to apologize when they don't have
to. By the same token, women tend to overinterpret men's not apologizing."
(About a husband who forgot to mail a letter ->) "No explanation. No
apology. She was furious-not because he had forgotten (though that
certainly irked her) but because he didn't apologize. "If I had done
that," she told me, "I would have fallen all over myself saying how
sorry I was." "
"Ironically, the more a woman demands an apology, the more a man may
resiste complying because the demand in itself makes apologizing seem
more like a degradation ritual. If she told him that something he did
had hurt or upset her he had armsful of talk he'd unload: excuses,
counterattacks, deflecting the blame-anything but admitting he'd made
a mistake and was sorry. Then his failure to apologize-from her point
of view, to take responsibility for what he'd done and express remorse
at having hurt her-would continue to irritate rather than healed."
She didn't say this, but because women in our culture have
traditionally had lower status than men, a behavior, apologizing, that
is a bit like groveling or surrendering may be more comfortable for us
than for "higher status" men who may feel any admission of culpability
is a dangerous admission of weakness. An admission of weakness could
potentially lead to a loss of status. (Myself, I don't worry about my
status much.)
Am I off topic, or can we circle this back to unschooling?
Treating our kids like "real people" and not like they have "low
status" because they are young can, I think, make the transition to
having strong adult-adult relationships easier.
Betsy
Betsy
between how men and women feel about apologies.**
**Can you summarize a bit? Sounds interesting!**
OK, the book title is _I Only Say This Because I Love You_, by Deborah
Tannen. I found some quotable snippets with the search feature on Amazon.
For starters she says women generally are quick to say "I'm sorry",
but that men are less so. It seems that women may equate saying "I'm
sorry" with thinking "I sympathize" but men feel that saying "I'm
sorry" means "Yes, I am guilty; I am a terrible sinner; I abase
myself." (This is my own rephrasing.) Thus men tend to be much more
reluctant to apologize; they feel they really lose a lot of status or
face if they do apologize.
Here are a couple of (truncated) quotes:
"For many of us (more women than men), apologies come in pairs and
constitute a ritual exchange: I apologize for x, then you apologize
for y, and we both consider the matter closed."
"...because most men don't recognize the ritual nature of women's
apologies and don't expect people to apologize when they don't have
to. By the same token, women tend to overinterpret men's not apologizing."
(About a husband who forgot to mail a letter ->) "No explanation. No
apology. She was furious-not because he had forgotten (though that
certainly irked her) but because he didn't apologize. "If I had done
that," she told me, "I would have fallen all over myself saying how
sorry I was." "
"Ironically, the more a woman demands an apology, the more a man may
resiste complying because the demand in itself makes apologizing seem
more like a degradation ritual. If she told him that something he did
had hurt or upset her he had armsful of talk he'd unload: excuses,
counterattacks, deflecting the blame-anything but admitting he'd made
a mistake and was sorry. Then his failure to apologize-from her point
of view, to take responsibility for what he'd done and express remorse
at having hurt her-would continue to irritate rather than healed."
She didn't say this, but because women in our culture have
traditionally had lower status than men, a behavior, apologizing, that
is a bit like groveling or surrendering may be more comfortable for us
than for "higher status" men who may feel any admission of culpability
is a dangerous admission of weakness. An admission of weakness could
potentially lead to a loss of status. (Myself, I don't worry about my
status much.)
Am I off topic, or can we circle this back to unschooling?
Treating our kids like "real people" and not like they have "low
status" because they are young can, I think, make the transition to
having strong adult-adult relationships easier.
Betsy
Betsy
Pamela Sorooshian
Really interesting! Thanks. I HAVE gotten irritated with my husband
and said those exact words, ""I" would have apologized."
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and said those exact words, ""I" would have apologized."
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Manisha Kher
--- Betsy Hill <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
not apologizing, just feeling bad that xxx happenned".
I haven't found a good substitute in English for "I'm
sorry" for some situations -like if my son bumps his
head, or some outing was cancelled because of weather.
In my native tongue (Marathi) it would've been an
exclamation, something between "uh oh" and "alas".
Manisha
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> For starters she says women generally are quick toI have found myself saying to dh "I'm sorry. No, I'm
> say "I'm sorry",
> but that men are less so. It seems that women may
> equate saying "I'm
> sorry" with thinking "I sympathize" but men feel
> that saying "I'm
> sorry" means "Yes, I am guilty; I am a terrible
> sinner; I abase
> myself."
not apologizing, just feeling bad that xxx happenned".
I haven't found a good substitute in English for "I'm
sorry" for some situations -like if my son bumps his
head, or some outing was cancelled because of weather.
In my native tongue (Marathi) it would've been an
exclamation, something between "uh oh" and "alas".
Manisha
__________________________________________________
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Betsy Hill
**In my native tongue (Marathi) it would've been an
exclamation, something between "uh oh" and "alas".**
Maybe we can start a campaign to increase the use of "alas" in English.
And maybe sometimes we just want to say "Oh, sweetie, how can I help?"
instead of apologizing.
(I googled Marathi. I hadn't quite realized that India has 22
official languages!)
Betsy
PS There's a large population of various Indian families in Silicon
Valley, due to the attraction of jobs. Where else are there big
Indian communities in the US? (And are you in the US?) (I shouldn't
assume.)
exclamation, something between "uh oh" and "alas".**
Maybe we can start a campaign to increase the use of "alas" in English.
And maybe sometimes we just want to say "Oh, sweetie, how can I help?"
instead of apologizing.
(I googled Marathi. I hadn't quite realized that India has 22
official languages!)
Betsy
PS There's a large population of various Indian families in Silicon
Valley, due to the attraction of jobs. Where else are there big
Indian communities in the US? (And are you in the US?) (I shouldn't
assume.)
Manisha Kher
--- Betsy Hill <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
number on Indians in most metropolitan areas. I think
the biggest populations are in New York city- New
Jersey area and Silicon valley.
Manisha
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>I'm in MA about 30 miles from Boston. There is a large
> PS There's a large population of various Indian
> families in Silicon
> Valley, due to the attraction of jobs. Where else
> are there big
> Indian communities in the US? (And are you in the
> US?) (I shouldn't
> assume.)
>
number on Indians in most metropolitan areas. I think
the biggest populations are in New York city- New
Jersey area and Silicon valley.
Manisha
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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jlh44music
Manisha Kher <m_kher@...> wrote:
are in New York city- New Jersey area and Silicon valley.>
I didn't know you were in MA! We're in No Reading, about 15 miles
north of Boston! I used to work in Burlington and there's a large
community of Indians in that area.
Jann
> I'm in MA about 30 miles from Boston. There is a large number onIndians in most metropolitan areas. I think the biggest populations
are in New York city- New Jersey area and Silicon valley.>
I didn't know you were in MA! We're in No Reading, about 15 miles
north of Boston! I used to work in Burlington and there's a large
community of Indians in that area.
Jann
Pamela Sorooshian
On Aug 3, 2006, at 11:39 AM, Betsy Hill wrote:
sari shops, sweets stores, restaurants, and home to festivals and
Indian music and other events. About half hour south of Los Angeles.
There are other "Little Indias" - New York has the largest and then
this one in Artesia is next.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> PS There's a large population of various Indian families in Silicon"Little India" -- Pioneer Blvd in Artesia --- an area filled with
> Valley, due to the attraction of jobs. Where else are there big
> Indian communities in the US? (And are you in the US?) (I shouldn't
> assume.)
sari shops, sweets stores, restaurants, and home to festivals and
Indian music and other events. About half hour south of Los Angeles.
There are other "Little Indias" - New York has the largest and then
this one in Artesia is next.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Manisha Kher
Jann,
I'm in Lowell.
I was at the NE unschooling conference but I missed
almost all of the talks etc because I was in the hotel
room with my 4yo. He hated being there. So I didn't
get to meet many of the people I would've liked to.
Manisha
--- jlh44music <jlh44music@...> wrote:
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I'm in Lowell.
I was at the NE unschooling conference but I missed
almost all of the talks etc because I was in the hotel
room with my 4yo. He hated being there. So I didn't
get to meet many of the people I would've liked to.
Manisha
--- jlh44music <jlh44music@...> wrote:
>__________________________________________________
> I didn't know you were in MA! We're in No Reading,
> about 15 miles
> north of Boston! I used to work in Burlington and
> there's a large
> community of Indians in that area.
> Jann
>
Do You Yahoo!?
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jlh44music
Manisha Kher <m_kher@...> wrote:
being there. So I didn't get to meet many of the people I would've
liked to.>>
I didn't stay at the hotel, so I missed out on meeting and hanging
with people too!
Are you on the NewEnglandUnschooling yahoo group? Someone posted
there who just moved to Chelmsford (well, dh will be working there
and they're looking for unschoolers in the area), they want to buy a
house. If you're not on that group, maybe I could direct her to
you? They're new to MA.
I went to school at ULowell (back in the 70s), it's changed a lot
since then!
Jann
> I'm in Lowell.the talks etc because I was in the hotel room with my 4yo. He hated
>
> I was at the NE unschooling conference but I missed almost all of
being there. So I didn't get to meet many of the people I would've
liked to.>>
I didn't stay at the hotel, so I missed out on meeting and hanging
with people too!
Are you on the NewEnglandUnschooling yahoo group? Someone posted
there who just moved to Chelmsford (well, dh will be working there
and they're looking for unschoolers in the area), they want to buy a
house. If you're not on that group, maybe I could direct her to
you? They're new to MA.
I went to school at ULowell (back in the 70s), it's changed a lot
since then!
Jann