Post from anon member
Ren Allen
More:
one who was ranting and raving, not me. i was telling him to calm
down and get control of himself. he was threatening to sling the stuff
across the garage, at which point i told him he'd better not! yes i
know what you are thinking. he is very immature in his reactions. he
has no parenting skills. his answer to things is punishment/violence.
often i try to stop him from the things he says and does, other times
i honestly don't know what to do. threatening to send them to school
is one of his favorites. i've learned a lot on this list, and have
been trying to see things differently....trying not to deliver
punishments, or consequences for their actions. trying to
let them have the freedom to make choices...when and what to eat etc.
back to the freezer incident, i don't know which boy did it, they are
5 and 8. the older boy opened the freezer to put in a box of freezer
pops. the younger one may have opened it to check on them afterwards.
this was yesterday (sunday). no it doesn't matter who did it. i told
them and dh it was an accident and told my 8 yo i forgave him (hoping
that would help him feel better).
have so many. but that might seem like a punishment.
preschool/k 3 mornings a week at age 4, 5, and 6. then i was doing
FIAR with him. then last summer started sonlight with him...big
mistake there! had a baby at the end of nov, tried to start school
work back up jan 1, met with more resistance than ever before. was so
frustrated i put him in public 2nd grade for march, april and may. i
regretted it and still do! since then i have been investigating
unschooling. the 5 yo went to a little preschool 2 mornings a week
this last fall and winter. part of me wants to unschool because it
seems so much easier, another part of me wants to do *some* work with
them. but nothing like we were doing with sonlight!
through the house, making tons of noise, jumping off furniture,
throwing things, wrestling, hurting each other, throwing an entire
container of pompoms around the room, destroying things, and not
stopping when told to stop. or stopping for 30 seconds then starting
again. wild, noisy, destructive behavior. this went on for hours it
seems like. I try to talk to them and interest them in other things.
I guess I never suggest the right things. plus I have a 3 yo and the
baby. and of course lots of things to do. and pets to take care of.
the house is no where near clean and toys everywhere, and that gets
dh's panties in a bunch.
I've read on this list that it is ok to tell children to stop if they
are engaging in behaviors that bother other people (not in those
words). I was trying so hard to do that. They will not listen to me,
obey me, whatever word you want to use. I ask them over and over to
stop. the only thing that will stop them is when dh comes and yells
at them. he is fond of issuing threats that i don't agree with or that
could never be followed up on. I just don't know what to do to have a
joyful household.
I will write more later.
Thanks!
>Do you (or dh) really think that they'll become betterhah! no, i certainly don't. i should have made it clear that dh is the
>at closing the freezer door by going to school?
one who was ranting and raving, not me. i was telling him to calm
down and get control of himself. he was threatening to sling the stuff
across the garage, at which point i told him he'd better not! yes i
know what you are thinking. he is very immature in his reactions. he
has no parenting skills. his answer to things is punishment/violence.
often i try to stop him from the things he says and does, other times
i honestly don't know what to do. threatening to send them to school
is one of his favorites. i've learned a lot on this list, and have
been trying to see things differently....trying not to deliver
punishments, or consequences for their actions. trying to
let them have the freedom to make choices...when and what to eat etc.
back to the freezer incident, i don't know which boy did it, they are
5 and 8. the older boy opened the freezer to put in a box of freezer
pops. the younger one may have opened it to check on them afterwards.
this was yesterday (sunday). no it doesn't matter who did it. i told
them and dh it was an accident and told my 8 yo i forgave him (hoping
that would help him feel better).
>Could you involve them in salvaging the food? Could youwe could sell some of their toys on ebay to make up for it....they
>involve them in your budget and in deciding what needs
>to be dropped because the money now needs to go for
>groceries. I don't mean this in a punishment sort of
>way, but the way you would deal with this if either
>you or dh left the door open by mistake.
have so many. but that might seem like a punishment.
>You didn't mention the age of your boys and how longthey are 5 and 8, almost 6 and 9. the oldest boy went to montessori
>have you been homeschooling/unschooling.
preschool/k 3 mornings a week at age 4, 5, and 6. then i was doing
FIAR with him. then last summer started sonlight with him...big
mistake there! had a baby at the end of nov, tried to start school
work back up jan 1, met with more resistance than ever before. was so
frustrated i put him in public 2nd grade for march, april and may. i
regretted it and still do! since then i have been investigating
unschooling. the 5 yo went to a little preschool 2 mornings a week
this last fall and winter. part of me wants to unschool because it
seems so much easier, another part of me wants to do *some* work with
them. but nothing like we were doing with sonlight!
> You talkthe specific things they were doing saturday, not limited to: running
>about them disbeying but don't mention any specifics.
>What behaviour is it that needs to be changed? I think
>you'll get more helpful replies if you give specific
>examples.
through the house, making tons of noise, jumping off furniture,
throwing things, wrestling, hurting each other, throwing an entire
container of pompoms around the room, destroying things, and not
stopping when told to stop. or stopping for 30 seconds then starting
again. wild, noisy, destructive behavior. this went on for hours it
seems like. I try to talk to them and interest them in other things.
I guess I never suggest the right things. plus I have a 3 yo and the
baby. and of course lots of things to do. and pets to take care of.
the house is no where near clean and toys everywhere, and that gets
dh's panties in a bunch.
I've read on this list that it is ok to tell children to stop if they
are engaging in behaviors that bother other people (not in those
words). I was trying so hard to do that. They will not listen to me,
obey me, whatever word you want to use. I ask them over and over to
stop. the only thing that will stop them is when dh comes and yells
at them. he is fond of issuing threats that i don't agree with or that
could never be followed up on. I just don't know what to do to have a
joyful household.
I will write more later.
Thanks!
Manisha Kher
> we could sell some of their toys on ebay to make upI would do that only if money was really tight.
> for it....they
> have so many. but that might seem like a punishment.
> the specific things they were doing saturday, notI have only 2 energetic kids (7 & 5) and unless
> limited to: running
> through the house, making tons of noise, jumping off
> furniture,
> throwing things, wrestling, hurting each other,
> throwing an entire
> container of pompoms around the room, destroying
> things, and not
> stopping when told to stop. or stopping for 30
> seconds then starting
> again. wild, noisy, destructive behavior.
they're destroying things or hurting each other, we
don't interfere. So running around the house, jumping
or doing somersaults on furniture are normal
activities in my house. I think that they listen to my
"No"s and "Stop"s if there are fewer of them. Now I
don't have a toddler and a baby and you definitely
need to keep the little ones safe. But it sounds like
they need more outlets for their energy.
> I've read on this list that it is ok to tellHave you tried to explain what it is that's bothering
> children to stop if they
> are engaging in behaviors that bother other people
> (not in those
> words). I was trying so hard to do that.
you? Like don't be so loud because the baby is
sleeping. Or don't throw toys because they may break
and it hurts when I step on them. (I discovered
yesterday that legos can really poke. So this is fresh
in my mind :)
Another thing to keep in mind - this is a process. I
have to say the same things again and again. They
often forget, but I'm hoping it sticks over time.
Manisha
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Melissa
I had to LOL! on this, because I'm thinking about four years ago we
had an incident with stepping on toys. Primarily that it was really
fun to roll them down our front entry and slam them off the front
door. not a problem for me, it was lots of fun. however, when Bre's
bussed pulled up, we had to hurry and quick to get her out the door.
I stepped on one, flew backwards, wrenched my back out of place.
Pinching that nerve was enough to deactivate my mitral valve (i have
a bad heart) and next thing you know, I'm in cardiac arrest on the
floor, unable to move because my back is out of alignment, and the
bus was still honking its horn outside. Sigh.
So when I ask the kids to pick up, they know it's very seriously
dangerous ;-) We all learned a lesson. I only wish it hadn't hurt so
much on my end...
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (9), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (5), Dan
(3), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
had an incident with stepping on toys. Primarily that it was really
fun to roll them down our front entry and slam them off the front
door. not a problem for me, it was lots of fun. however, when Bre's
bussed pulled up, we had to hurry and quick to get her out the door.
I stepped on one, flew backwards, wrenched my back out of place.
Pinching that nerve was enough to deactivate my mitral valve (i have
a bad heart) and next thing you know, I'm in cardiac arrest on the
floor, unable to move because my back is out of alignment, and the
bus was still honking its horn outside. Sigh.
So when I ask the kids to pick up, they know it's very seriously
dangerous ;-) We all learned a lesson. I only wish it hadn't hurt so
much on my end...
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (9), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (5), Dan
(3), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Jul 31, 2006, at 4:21 PM, Manisha Kher wrote:
> Or don't throw toys because they may break
> and it hurts when I step on them. (I discovered
> yesterday that legos can really poke. So this is fresh
> in my mind :)
>
>> .
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
At 16:22 7/31/2006, anon wrote:
a situation like that if it were me. Is there anyway to help your
husband understand that his temper tantrums are interfering with your
kids' ability to be themselves and respond to their environment in a
positive way? If he can possibly understand that, in the absence of
a safe and peaceful environment, everything they do is in response to
some adversarial input. They're really not getting the chance to be
themselves! And, he should understand that their responses are
actually entirely appropriate! They're just trying to do the best
they can in that situation. They're not being willfully disobedient;
they're being seen that way and they know it, so they have to do
things to either prove it or disprove it, and because of that,
they're not able to just be Who They Are.
understand about how it works and how much does he support it?
(like a toy) for something temporary (like food)? Think of it this
way: Let's say a house guest didn't know about the freezer door and
caused the food to spoil. Would you present that person with a bill
or suggest that they sell their stuff to reimburse you for the
food. Now, they might offer to do that for you, and that's
different. In fact, your kids might offer to sell off some toys to
help cover the cost of the food, and that's entirely different. But
you would never ask that house guest to do that, right? That would be
weird, no?
need a safe place to be able to do big physical play run-around play
like that. Second, though, is that point I brought up earlier. I
believe you don't have their support because they don't have your
husband's support. If they could feel a partnership from him they
would be more likely to respond to reasonable requests you may
have. Being told to stop, though, is not reasonable in and of
itself, especially when they're feeling antsy and needing to move and
run and play!
to find ways that your he can help rather than just criticize?
role in a joyful house. He has to change first; then, I believe the
kids will be able to respond in kind. Your husband has to understand
that he is the impediment to a joyful household!
That's my opinion, anyway, for what it's worth.
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>...i should have made it clear that dh is theOh boy. You and the kids have my sympathy. I wouldn't feel safe in
>one who was ranting and raving, not me. i was telling him to calm
>down and get control of himself. he was threatening to sling the stuff
>across the garage, at which point i told him he'd better not!
a situation like that if it were me. Is there anyway to help your
husband understand that his temper tantrums are interfering with your
kids' ability to be themselves and respond to their environment in a
positive way? If he can possibly understand that, in the absence of
a safe and peaceful environment, everything they do is in response to
some adversarial input. They're really not getting the chance to be
themselves! And, he should understand that their responses are
actually entirely appropriate! They're just trying to do the best
they can in that situation. They're not being willfully disobedient;
they're being seen that way and they know it, so they have to do
things to either prove it or disprove it, and because of that,
they're not able to just be Who They Are.
>he is very immature in his reactions. heIs he on-board somewhat with unschooling? How much does he
>has no parenting skills. his answer to things is punishment/violence.
>often i try to stop him from the things he says and does, other times
>i honestly don't know what to do.
understand about how it works and how much does he support it?
>we could sell some of their toys on ebay to make up for it....theyThat's punitive!! Why should they have to give up something permanent
>have so many. but that might seem like a punishment.
(like a toy) for something temporary (like food)? Think of it this
way: Let's say a house guest didn't know about the freezer door and
caused the food to spoil. Would you present that person with a bill
or suggest that they sell their stuff to reimburse you for the
food. Now, they might offer to do that for you, and that's
different. In fact, your kids might offer to sell off some toys to
help cover the cost of the food, and that's entirely different. But
you would never ask that house guest to do that, right? That would be
weird, no?
>the specific things they were doing saturday, not limited to: runningTwo things come to my mind. First, is that they're young kids who
>through the house, making tons of noise, jumping off furniture,
>throwing things, wrestling, hurting each other, throwing an entire
>container of pompoms around the room, destroying things, and not
>stopping when told to stop.
need a safe place to be able to do big physical play run-around play
like that. Second, though, is that point I brought up earlier. I
believe you don't have their support because they don't have your
husband's support. If they could feel a partnership from him they
would be more likely to respond to reasonable requests you may
have. Being told to stop, though, is not reasonable in and of
itself, especially when they're feeling antsy and needing to move and
run and play!
>...the house is no where near clean and toys everywhere, and that getsYou've got quite a full plate! Perhaps you and he can work together
>dh's panties in a bunch.
to find ways that your he can help rather than just criticize?
>I just don't know what to do to have aI think the first step has to be educating your husband about his
>joyful household.
role in a joyful house. He has to change first; then, I believe the
kids will be able to respond in kind. Your husband has to understand
that he is the impediment to a joyful household!
That's my opinion, anyway, for what it's worth.
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
At 17:35 7/31/2006, you wrote:
tell the tale!
~Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>...however, when Bre'sYikes!! Talk about consequences!! I'm glad you're still here to
>bussed pulled up, we had to hurry and quick to get her out the door.
>I stepped on one, flew backwards, wrenched my back out of place.
>Pinching that nerve was enough to deactivate my mitral valve (i have
>a bad heart) and next thing you know, I'm in cardiac arrest on the
>floor, unable to move because my back is out of alignment, and the
>bus was still honking its horn outside. Sigh.
tell the tale!
~Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rue Kream
posted on behalf of anonymous member:
At 02:42 PM 7/31/2006 -0400, you wrote:
them not to open it. And yes if I had been the one to leave it open he
would definitely have yelled and cursed at me! (and yes I totally agree,
going to school is not the answer).
I hate to call them that. so maybe this is the result of punishment, or
trying to apply consequences to their actions.
because I didn't know what else to do!
times.
to yell or be punitive. They kept right on. and on. and on.
consistent in doing what we said we'd do, which was not staying all
afternoon at the amusement park. are you saying we should have given in and
stayed even though we had said we would not? (I'm confused!) my mother
would say I am never consistent enough and that I should definitely not
have given in.
don't want to control them. I want them to be able to make their own
choices. Not at the expense of the peace of the household. Not if it means
damaging things or making huge messes for me to clean up. Not if they can't
respect the needs of others.
little? I think it is old enough to know better, old enough to understand
and remember things. Am I wrong? How do I help them? What are these
roadblocks you refer to? I want so much to do better for them I just don't
know what to do or how. Except for the *wisdom* of conventional parenting
which never seems to work either.
Thanks.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
At 02:42 PM 7/31/2006 -0400, you wrote:
> What if you or your husband had been the culprit? Would *you* thenOh they do know, I have told them many times. Dh is the one that's told
>have to go to school to learn something? Who would yell and curse at
>you? If they aren't allowed to even open the freezer, how should they
>know that it must be shut all the way?
them not to open it. And yes if I had been the one to leave it open he
would definitely have yelled and cursed at me! (and yes I totally agree,
going to school is not the answer).
> You really need to look at it from the point of view of two littleyes I agree.
>boys who are *ONLY* eight and five. Their goal wasn't to ruin $200
>worth of food. It was to get ice or a Popsicle.
> Accidents HAPPEN. Punishing for accidents makes people sneaky liars.yes accidents do happen, and unfortunately my boys are sneaky liars, though
I hate to call them that. so maybe this is the result of punishment, or
trying to apply consequences to their actions.
> -=-=-=-=-I explained the details in a different post. I felt the need to punish
>
> What rule did they break the night before? How did it relate to the
>amusement park? Why did you feel the need to punish at all?
because I didn't know what else to do!
> They're REALLY little. Do you think they really understood yourI don't know if they really understood, though I explained it numerous
>arbitrary consequence? Why?
times.
> Where were you during this "disobedience" that "caused" the loss ofI was right there. Talking to them, trying to get them to stop. Trying not
>amusement park privilege? Why weren't you right here? Could it have
>been caused by hunger? Exhaustion? Pain?
to yell or be punitive. They kept right on. and on. and on.
> -=-=-=-I hope they learned that as a result of their not obeying, we were
>
> Do *you* quit when *they* say Stop or Don't? I'm sure they asked
>repeatedly to stay at the amusement park. You refused to listen. What
>do you think they learned from that?
>
> --=-=-
consistent in doing what we said we'd do, which was not staying all
afternoon at the amusement park. are you saying we should have given in and
stayed even though we had said we would not? (I'm confused!) my mother
would say I am never consistent enough and that I should definitely not
have given in.
> -=-=-=-I should rephrase that. I want them to be free to do what they want. I
>
> Yes I want them to be free and do what they want, as long as it does
> not conflict with what they have been told!
don't want to control them. I want them to be able to make their own
choices. Not at the expense of the peace of the household. Not if it means
damaging things or making huge messes for me to clean up. Not if they can't
respect the needs of others.
> -=-=-=-A saddening thought. But I have sometimes wondered if it was true.
>
> They may feel safer in school. Home seems spiteful and unreasonable.
> Have you ever looked at it from *their* perspective? They are really,I try to see it from their perspective. You think 8 and 5 is really
>really little. They need *help* in navigating this path. You're so busy
>throwing up roadblocks that they can't even SEE the road!
little? I think it is old enough to know better, old enough to understand
and remember things. Am I wrong? How do I help them? What are these
roadblocks you refer to? I want so much to do better for them I just don't
know what to do or how. Except for the *wisdom* of conventional parenting
which never seems to work either.
Thanks.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jehmen
>I just don't know what to do to have aThe husband might need to see peace and joyfulness being modelled first.
>joyful household.
>I think the first step has to be educating your husband about his
>role in a joyful house. He has to change first; then, I believe the
>kids will be able to respond in kind. Your husband has to understand
>that he is the impediment to a joyful household!
One can't impose change on anyone, but one can example the desired change.
~ Kristin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle/Melbrigða
On 7/31/06, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
Otherwise you are just further distancing trust in your family. How
will they learn to trust you if you say that you forgive them and then
continue to punish them for something that most likely was an
accident?
them in an activity? Finding something for them to do so that they
could safely and less destructively use their energy? A romp in the
park, bouncing on a mattress on the floor, tumbling on said mattress,
a gymnastics class or dance class or just a run around the block on
their bikes or scooters (with mom joining them). When my kids seem to
be "cluttery" and restless I know that is a big signal to get out of
the house and go somewhere. Sometimes the park. Sometimes the
bookstore. Sometimes the backyard.
loose fitting briefs?
the same back. Yelling at them constantly to do things that annoy you
is not the way to build trust. What are your priorities when it comes
to your children? To your family? How will the words you say bring
you to a point where your children trust you and respect is mutual and
you are joyfully living your lives?
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
> More:Do they want to sell some of their toys on ebay to make up for it?
> we could sell some of their toys on ebay to make up for it....they
> have so many. but that might seem like a punishment.
>
Otherwise you are just further distancing trust in your family. How
will they learn to trust you if you say that you forgive them and then
continue to punish them for something that most likely was an
accident?
> the specific things they were doing saturday, not limited to: runningWhere were you when this was going on? Were you with them? Engaging
> through the house, making tons of noise, jumping off furniture,
> throwing things, wrestling, hurting each other, throwing an entire
> container of pompoms around the room, destroying things, and not
> stopping when told to stop. or stopping for 30 seconds then starting
> again. wild, noisy, destructive behavior. this went on for hours it
> seems like.
them in an activity? Finding something for them to do so that they
could safely and less destructively use their energy? A romp in the
park, bouncing on a mattress on the floor, tumbling on said mattress,
a gymnastics class or dance class or just a run around the block on
their bikes or scooters (with mom joining them). When my kids seem to
be "cluttery" and restless I know that is a big signal to get out of
the house and go somewhere. Sometimes the park. Sometimes the
bookstore. Sometimes the backyard.
>I try to talk to them and interest them in other things.There's the problem. Have you suggested boxers or at the very least
> I guess I never suggest the right things. plus I have a 3 yo and the
> baby. and of course lots of things to do. and pets to take care of.
> the house is no where near clean and toys everywhere, and that gets
> dh's panties in a bunch.
loose fitting briefs?
>You need to build trust and respect with them before you can expect
> I've read on this list that it is ok to tell children to stop if they
> are engaging in behaviors that bother other people (not in those
> words). I was trying so hard to do that. They will not listen to me,
> obey me, whatever word you want to use. I ask them over and over to
> stop.
the same back. Yelling at them constantly to do things that annoy you
is not the way to build trust. What are your priorities when it comes
to your children? To your family? How will the words you say bring
you to a point where your children trust you and respect is mutual and
you are joyfully living your lives?
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
Pamela Sorooshian
> I hope they learned that as a result of their not obeying, we wereDon't worry about being consistent - worry about being kind,
> consistent in doing what we said we'd do, which was not staying all
> afternoon at the amusement park. are you saying we should have
> given in and
> stayed even though we had said we would not? (I'm confused!) my mother
> would say I am never consistent enough and that I should definitely
> not
> have given in.
considerate, rational, logical, thoughtful, understanding,
empathetic...and all kinds of other things, but consistency is NOT a
virtue in and of itself - remember, people can be consistently cruel
and evil.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 31, 2006, at 5:53 PM, Rue Kream wrote:
helping them get what they need. How can they get what they want
*and* keep the door closed?
Can you move the food they keep looking for?
truth will get them in trouble it's more reasonable to lie.
If a policeman asked you if you caused a mess and you knew you'd be
fined and made to clean it up if you admitted it by telling the truth
but could avoid both by lying, which would you choose?
It seems we need to punish, though. If kids do wrong we need to teach
them it was wrong by associating something bad with it.
But despite our society's absolute conviction that that is necessary,
it isn't. My daughter has never been punished and yet at 14 she's
kind and thoughtful and doesn't leave the freezer door hanging open
more than anyone else.
And it isn't because she's a perfect kid. It's because I always
assumed she meant well and was trying to do her best and helped her
clean up the mess and figure out a better way when her decisions
didn't turn out as she'd planned.
From *kids* point of view our punishments are unreasonable. It's not
that they don't understand that what they did was wrong, but
punishment assumes that either:
1)They did it accidently because they were unaware and that
punishment will make them think next time.
It makes them think parents are unreasonable and don't understand!
But little kids are unaware of their environment. It's just the way
their brains are wired -- or not yet wired really. Pain won't make
those connections form faster. But it will put images of their
parents as angry and hurtful in their heads. Is that how you want to
be remembered? We can't control what they will remember of their
childhood. We can't assume that one good time with them will replace
one bad time.
2) Or someone stood poised for a moment between a good decision and a
bad one and chose the bad one deliberately.
When we punish, kids know that both aren't true so the punishment is
unreasonable. It shows we don't understand them and what's going on
inside. It doesn't make them think more about what their being
punished for. It makes them think less of their parents.
And people who are treated unreasonably, who feel the world doesn't
understand them, can lash out at the world. They're angry at being
treated unfairly so they turn the anger back on the world.
Kids who are treated as though they are doing their best have no
reason to punish the world.
Rather than viewing your relationship with them as teaching them to
act right, view it as being their partner and *helping* them get what
they want in the world. They're going to make mistakes. When they
do, help them. Clean up the mess and help them find better ways.
Rather than turning the kids into the problem, engage them in solving
the problem. How can we keep the freezer door from being left open.
(They may echo back your rules and that may feel satisfying. But you
want new ideas because obviously the rules aren't working.)
The thing about rules is they're a substitute for being there with
them. Rules are a substitute for us being more mindful of what they
could conceivably do. Rules are passing off our responsibilities onto
a child -- without asking if they want responsibility! -- and then
punishing the child when the child can't handle the responsibility.
If we have breakables down where small children could pick them up,
the solution isn't a rule not to touch. The solution is to put them
up and be there to show them how to handle them gently. If a freezer
door won't close, the solution isn't a rule, but fixing the freezer
door, putting a lock on it, putting a gate around the freezer,
putting it up high where the kids can't reach it ;-) But ultimately
the children aren't responsible for keeping the food from defrosting.
That's the parents' job.
kids who can't be trusted. The transition period from distrusting
them to trusting them will be difficult! Do a lot of apologizing for
past treatment. Tell them you're sorry you didn't know better but
know you do.
out there. But we can't *depend* on them understanding. We can't hand
them the information and expect them to handle it. We need to hold
onto the responsibility over whatever we're explaining for ourselves.
Rather than saying no, figure out how to say yes. Don't assume they
want to destroy. If they're full of energy, they need to run. They
may need to run more than you could believe possible. And to forge a
good relationship, they need to feel as though their needs are your
number one priority.
That's going to be difficult! They're already convinced that their
needs are secondary and come when it's convenient for parents. As
much as parents *say* their kids are number one priority, more often
it means after all the "necessary" things are done. And there's a
*huge* list of necessary things: laundry, cleaning, dinner, shopping,
spouse tending ....
We can't always drop what we're doing but if we build up in them
confidence that "In a minute" really means in a minute and not "When
it's convenient," and "We'll do that soon," means we'll do that
really soon and not "If I wait long enough you'll forget."
But I don't promising punishment is something we should be promising!
No, I don't think you should have "given in". I think it would have
been better for your relationship, better for them to not view
mistakes as needing punishment.
If you were volunteering somewhere and you made a mistake, which
person would you rather return to help: The person who ranted and
raved and punished you for a mistake or the person who assumed you
were doing your best and said "Here, let me help you," and showed you
how to do it again?
being treated with respect.
Part is probably because their kids and they need to be able to move
energetically. They may need more frequent trips to the park, a mini
trampoline, boffer swords and a back yard.
The problem is that you can't switch to treating them respectfully
and then expect them to know that know you trust them. :-/ You have
to regain their trust.
That doesn't though, mean letting them treat you and the house
however they wish. But rather than no, when they're being energetic,
acknowledge that they're full of energy and help channel that energy
in more positive directions until you can get them out.
Unlike conventional parenting, mindful parenting doesn't have
supposed magic bullets. There isn't solution Y for when kids are
doing X. It's all about building up a trusting relationship with the
kids so they *know* that you're their advocate, trying to help them
get what they want and need.
Rather than looking at their age, look at *them*. No matter that most
kids can read by 8 (or so) that doesn't help the child who won't read
until 12 read sooner. It will only make them feel bad about
themselves. They will read, be aware of their environment, be aware
of their emotions and act rather than react when they're able and no
amount of punishment or disapproval will make it happen sooner.
(Though if may delay it! Or it may make it seem so unpleasant that
kids don't want to.)
Regaining their trust won't happen immediately. They're going to test
you. If your husband cheated on you and then said "I'm sorry. I
promise I'm a changed person and it won't happen again," would you
immediately trust him? What could he do to help you rebuild
confidence in him? The more seriously he treats the wound in your
confidence, the more responsibility he takes in proving that he's
trustworthy, the more it will help.
Have you read How To Talk So Kids Will Listen (and Listen So Kids
Will Talk)?
and
Siblings Without Rivalry?
There's a lot more about punishments and relationships at:
Joyfully Rejoycing
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Joyce
> Oh they do know, I have told them many times. Dh is the one that'sThey obviously have a need to get into the freezer. See your job as
> told
> them not to open
helping them get what they need. How can they get what they want
*and* keep the door closed?
Can you move the food they keep looking for?
> yes accidents do happen, and unfortunately my boys are sneakyAbsolutely. Lying is a defense response. If someone know telling the
> liars, though
> I hate to call them that. so maybe this is the result of
> punishment, or
> trying to apply consequences to their actions.
truth will get them in trouble it's more reasonable to lie.
If a policeman asked you if you caused a mess and you knew you'd be
fined and made to clean it up if you admitted it by telling the truth
but could avoid both by lying, which would you choose?
It seems we need to punish, though. If kids do wrong we need to teach
them it was wrong by associating something bad with it.
But despite our society's absolute conviction that that is necessary,
it isn't. My daughter has never been punished and yet at 14 she's
kind and thoughtful and doesn't leave the freezer door hanging open
more than anyone else.
And it isn't because she's a perfect kid. It's because I always
assumed she meant well and was trying to do her best and helped her
clean up the mess and figure out a better way when her decisions
didn't turn out as she'd planned.
From *kids* point of view our punishments are unreasonable. It's not
that they don't understand that what they did was wrong, but
punishment assumes that either:
1)They did it accidently because they were unaware and that
punishment will make them think next time.
It makes them think parents are unreasonable and don't understand!
But little kids are unaware of their environment. It's just the way
their brains are wired -- or not yet wired really. Pain won't make
those connections form faster. But it will put images of their
parents as angry and hurtful in their heads. Is that how you want to
be remembered? We can't control what they will remember of their
childhood. We can't assume that one good time with them will replace
one bad time.
2) Or someone stood poised for a moment between a good decision and a
bad one and chose the bad one deliberately.
When we punish, kids know that both aren't true so the punishment is
unreasonable. It shows we don't understand them and what's going on
inside. It doesn't make them think more about what their being
punished for. It makes them think less of their parents.
And people who are treated unreasonably, who feel the world doesn't
understand them, can lash out at the world. They're angry at being
treated unfairly so they turn the anger back on the world.
Kids who are treated as though they are doing their best have no
reason to punish the world.
Rather than viewing your relationship with them as teaching them to
act right, view it as being their partner and *helping* them get what
they want in the world. They're going to make mistakes. When they
do, help them. Clean up the mess and help them find better ways.
Rather than turning the kids into the problem, engage them in solving
the problem. How can we keep the freezer door from being left open.
(They may echo back your rules and that may feel satisfying. But you
want new ideas because obviously the rules aren't working.)
The thing about rules is they're a substitute for being there with
them. Rules are a substitute for us being more mindful of what they
could conceivably do. Rules are passing off our responsibilities onto
a child -- without asking if they want responsibility! -- and then
punishing the child when the child can't handle the responsibility.
If we have breakables down where small children could pick them up,
the solution isn't a rule not to touch. The solution is to put them
up and be there to show them how to handle them gently. If a freezer
door won't close, the solution isn't a rule, but fixing the freezer
door, putting a lock on it, putting a gate around the freezer,
putting it up high where the kids can't reach it ;-) But ultimately
the children aren't responsible for keeping the food from defrosting.
That's the parents' job.
> I explained the details in a different post. I felt the need to punishKids who are treated as though they can't be trusted often become
> because I didn't know what else to do!
kids who can't be trusted. The transition period from distrusting
them to trusting them will be difficult! Do a lot of apologizing for
past treatment. Tell them you're sorry you didn't know better but
know you do.
> I don't know if they really understood, though I explained it numerousWe do need to explain. We need information about how the world works
> times.
out there. But we can't *depend* on them understanding. We can't hand
them the information and expect them to handle it. We need to hold
onto the responsibility over whatever we're explaining for ourselves.
> I was right there. Talking to them, trying to get them to stop.I suspect they hear no a lot. It's become a buzz in their ears.
> Trying not
> to yell or be punitive. They kept right on. and on. and on.
Rather than saying no, figure out how to say yes. Don't assume they
want to destroy. If they're full of energy, they need to run. They
may need to run more than you could believe possible. And to forge a
good relationship, they need to feel as though their needs are your
number one priority.
That's going to be difficult! They're already convinced that their
needs are secondary and come when it's convenient for parents. As
much as parents *say* their kids are number one priority, more often
it means after all the "necessary" things are done. And there's a
*huge* list of necessary things: laundry, cleaning, dinner, shopping,
spouse tending ....
We can't always drop what we're doing but if we build up in them
confidence that "In a minute" really means in a minute and not "When
it's convenient," and "We'll do that soon," means we'll do that
really soon and not "If I wait long enough you'll forget."
> I hope they learned that as a result of their not obeying, we wereI think following through on what we promise is important.
> consistent in doing what we said we'd do, which was not staying all
> afternoon at the amusement park. are you saying we should have
> given in and
> stayed even though we had said we would not? (I'm confused!) my mother
> would say I am never consistent enough and that I should definitely
> not
> have given in.
But I don't promising punishment is something we should be promising!
No, I don't think you should have "given in". I think it would have
been better for your relationship, better for them to not view
mistakes as needing punishment.
If you were volunteering somewhere and you made a mistake, which
person would you rather return to help: The person who ranted and
raved and punished you for a mistake or the person who assumed you
were doing your best and said "Here, let me help you," and showed you
how to do it again?
> I should rephrase that. I want them to be free to do what theyPart of their destruction and disrespect is from hearing no and not
> want. I
> don't want to control them. I want them to be able to make their own
> choices. Not at the expense of the peace of the household. Not if
> it means
> damaging things or making huge messes for me to clean up. Not if
> they can't
> respect the needs of others.
being treated with respect.
Part is probably because their kids and they need to be able to move
energetically. They may need more frequent trips to the park, a mini
trampoline, boffer swords and a back yard.
The problem is that you can't switch to treating them respectfully
and then expect them to know that know you trust them. :-/ You have
to regain their trust.
That doesn't though, mean letting them treat you and the house
however they wish. But rather than no, when they're being energetic,
acknowledge that they're full of energy and help channel that energy
in more positive directions until you can get them out.
Unlike conventional parenting, mindful parenting doesn't have
supposed magic bullets. There isn't solution Y for when kids are
doing X. It's all about building up a trusting relationship with the
kids so they *know* that you're their advocate, trying to help them
get what they want and need.
> I try to see it from their perspective. You think 8 and 5 is reallyTheir actions are showing you you're wrong! ;-)
> little? I think it is old enough to know better, old enough to
> understand
> and remember things. Am I wrong?
Rather than looking at their age, look at *them*. No matter that most
kids can read by 8 (or so) that doesn't help the child who won't read
until 12 read sooner. It will only make them feel bad about
themselves. They will read, be aware of their environment, be aware
of their emotions and act rather than react when they're able and no
amount of punishment or disapproval will make it happen sooner.
(Though if may delay it! Or it may make it seem so unpleasant that
kids don't want to.)
Regaining their trust won't happen immediately. They're going to test
you. If your husband cheated on you and then said "I'm sorry. I
promise I'm a changed person and it won't happen again," would you
immediately trust him? What could he do to help you rebuild
confidence in him? The more seriously he treats the wound in your
confidence, the more responsibility he takes in proving that he's
trustworthy, the more it will help.
Have you read How To Talk So Kids Will Listen (and Listen So Kids
Will Talk)?
and
Siblings Without Rivalry?
There's a lot more about punishments and relationships at:
Joyfully Rejoycing
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Joyce
Deb
--- In [email protected], "Rue Kream" <skreams@...>
wrote:
accept his behaving this way toward you? (not even getting into what
the kids are learning from this). Unfortunately, school wouldn't
solve it because he'd still be there when they got home from school.
And there'd be yelling and cursing because they scraped a hole in a
pair of jeans when they were on the playground...
This is way bigger than simply figuring out what to do about the
kids.
(BTW I agree with other posts that it sounds like the bigger kids
need more running room that they aren't getting cause you've got
your hands full with the little ones. Finding ways for them to burn
energy - at-home things like punching bags, mini trampolines, actual
safe mats for wrestling around on, whatever and/or ways to get them
out to a park or something where they can run, even if that means
spending $20/week to hire a teenager to run around with them for a
few hours)
--Deb
wrote:
>Yow! And he thinks it is okay to do this? And you think it's okay to
> posted on behalf of anonymous member:
>
>
> And yes if I had been the one to leave it open he
> would definitely have yelled and cursed at me!
accept his behaving this way toward you? (not even getting into what
the kids are learning from this). Unfortunately, school wouldn't
solve it because he'd still be there when they got home from school.
And there'd be yelling and cursing because they scraped a hole in a
pair of jeans when they were on the playground...
This is way bigger than simply figuring out what to do about the
kids.
(BTW I agree with other posts that it sounds like the bigger kids
need more running room that they aren't getting cause you've got
your hands full with the little ones. Finding ways for them to burn
energy - at-home things like punching bags, mini trampolines, actual
safe mats for wrestling around on, whatever and/or ways to get them
out to a park or something where they can run, even if that means
spending $20/week to hire a teenager to run around with them for a
few hours)
--Deb