[email protected]

I really like what you wrote!
syndi

"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

"I think it was ren, who wrote about a body art book.
what is the title? i wouldn't mind checking it out."

I found the MAC Deck of Cards at this site: http://www.assouline.com/
Assouline teamed up with MAC to create a Deck of Cards based on body
art. Then the book was printed, part of the proceeds go to the MAC
Aids foundation. Very cool.

Assouline publishing has many interesting books I'd like to buy. One
of them is a book on Video Game Art, one of the first serious books on
gaming art I've seen.

After you enter the site, click on "search all books" then choose the
letter "M". It's the third book down on the "M" page. It's titled
"MAC: Deck of Cards" but the cover is completely black so it's easy to
miss.

Assouline focuses on art and fashion books. Great stuff.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

Great job this morning. I got it all recorded for you. But, IL law you
dont have to register with the school. You actually dont have to do anything in
IL. For future reference. But great job i enjoyed listening.

~Alyssa
Slightly crunchy, non-vaxing, unschooling Mom to Landen(2 1/2) and Gage(7
months)

"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and
dance like you do when nobody's watching."







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

" But, IL law you dont have to register with the school. You actually
dont have to do anything in IL. For future reference. "

Ooooh...good thing I said "I BELIEVE your state is like that......"
and he agreed as though he knew!! HA!:)
I really don't like answering law questions. Tried to skirt it with
the whole thing about everyone needing to research their own state.

Phew. Glad it's over with. And thank you SO much for recording it.
Maybe we could get it to Queanna for a podcast? I'd love to have it
archived somewhere for reference.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/17/2006 8:14:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

" But, IL law you dont have to register with the school. You actually
dont have to do anything in IL. For future reference. "

Ooooh...good thing I said "I BELIEVE your state is like that......"
and he agreed as though he knew!! HA!:)
I really don't like answering law questions. Tried to skirt it with
the whole thing about everyone needing to research their own state.

Phew. Glad it's over with. And thank you SO much for recording it.
Maybe we could get it to Queanna for a podcast? I'd love to have it
archived somewhere for reference.


Sure whatever you want. I have it on it's own tape so i can send it to you,
or Queanna whatever just let me know and give me a address. But it was
great. Loved the throw in for Sandra's page that was awsome. LOL great job
again. It came of very very well.

~Alyssa
Slightly crunchy, non-vaxing, unschooling Mom to Landen(2 1/2) and Gage(7
months)

"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and
dance like you do when nobody's watching."







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesa McMahon-Lowe

yeah for IL law!!!! woohoo!!!! I thank God I live in IL...


~*~*~
Lesa
LIFE Academy
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
http://qtpiecraftsandthings.etsy.com
-------Original Message-------

From: SquishyMommy1@...
Date: 05/17/06 08:01:00
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Ren

Great job this morning. I got it all recorded for you. But, IL law you
dont have to register with the school. You actually dont have to do
anything in
IL. For future reference. But great job i enjoyed listening.

~Alyssa
Slightly crunchy, non-vaxing, unschooling Mom to Landen(2 1/2) and Gage(7
months)

"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and
dance like you do when nobody's watching."







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

Visit your group "unschoolingbasics" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesa McMahon-Lowe

>>>Phew. Glad it's over with. And thank you SO much for recording it.
Maybe we could get it to Queanna for a podcast? I'd love to have it
archived somewhere for reference.<<<

I'd love to hear it! I hope you can do that.

~*~*~
Lesa
LIFE Academy
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
http://qtpiecraftsandthings.etsy.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/17/2006 7:43:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
lesajm@... writes:

yeah for IL law!!!! woohoo!!!! I thank God I live in IL...


OMG ME TO. I always hope it stays this way. Did you catch the show?

~Alyssa
Slightly crunchy, non-vaxing, unschooling Mom to Landen(2 1/2) and Gage(7
months)

"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and
dance like you do when nobody's watching."







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesa McMahon-Lowe

I didn't catch it... I tried to see if we had an affiliate down here in
central IL but I could find one and I didn't see a live stream (which in
this day and age is really lame not to have one) at the website.


~*~*~
Lesa
LIFE Academy
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
http://qtpiecraftsandthings.etsy.com

-------Original Message-------

Did you catch the show?

~Alyssa
Slightly crunchy, non-vaxing, unschooling Mom to Landen(2 1/2) and Gage(7
months)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Queana

Please do! That would be great! Unfortunately, I'm in California, so I
couldn't get it myself :)

~Q~
aka Sarah
http://www.unbridledlearning.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 6:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Ren

" But, IL law you dont have to register with the school. You actually
dont have to do anything in IL. For future reference. "

Ooooh...good thing I said "I BELIEVE your state is like that......"
and he agreed as though he knew!! HA!:)
I really don't like answering law questions. Tried to skirt it with
the whole thing about everyone needing to research their own state.

Phew. Glad it's over with. And thank you SO much for recording it.
Maybe we could get it to Queanna for a podcast? I'd love to have it
archived somewhere for reference.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com










Yahoo! Groups Links






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Lorrie

I actually knew this girl's family and her Mom was not at all controlling. Both girls were always allowed to have parties and were also allowed to go just about anywhere they wanted to go. Their Mom was a sweet, kind woman, and probably the nicest woman I met here, that was in the homeschool circle. Of course she wasn't from here originally, which I am sure is why she was so friendly.

I am also pretty sure that both parents did treat all of their kids with respect and as far as trust goes, she was told she could not date a boy that was that much older with her, and she was only 14 to begin with, and was not even allowed to be dating. From what I know, she had many "secret" boyfriends before David came along. I am sure that they did trust her, but in the end she wanted her way and had the boy sneaking up into her room so she could have sex with him while her family slept in nearby rooms.

I do believe that overly controlling kids can damage them mentally, but as far as I could see and anyone else who knew them, that was never the case. Now what went on on in David Ludwig's home, I have no idea. I had never met that family and they were never involved in anything that we were.
Mental abuse can happen in any family homeschooled or not.

lorrie


----- Original Message ----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2007 5:01:39 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: interesting article needs some attention lol


~~Believe me homeschooling had nothing to do with it. The young girl
involved was a sneak and a liar. My daughter was friends with her for
a short time until I could see that she was manipulative and sneaky. ~~

Manipulation and sneakiness are learned by being overly controlled.

~~She had snuck this boy into her room right behind her families back,
while they were asleep, on more then one occasion. Did she learn this
from homeschooling? ~~

Maybe if her parents had treated her with trust and respect from the
beginning, she wouldn't have had to sneak anything.

~~It doesn't matter where you live or if kids are homeschooled,
unschooled, public, private, whatever. The method of teaching has
nothing to do with how a kid turns out mentally.~~

While I agree that tragedy can strike anyone, I don't believe that
method of schooling has no effect on mental health. If that were true,
then unschooling wouldn't be my best option. But it is. And I don't
have teens that are sneaky, and I don't have kids trying to manipulate
anyone.

Method of teaching can greatly affect mental health. I've been witness
to it countless times. The damage produced by overly controlling
parents and schooling isn't as apparent in some kids, but it's still
damaging them.

Unschooling isn't a teaching method. It isn't a schooling method.
Unschooling is saying that there is no need for a method of any
kind...that humans learn just fine without any of that bullcrap.

Ren
learninginfreedom. com






____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~I am also pretty sure that both parents did treat all of their kids
with respect and as far as trust goes, she was told she could not date
a boy that was that much older with her, and she was only 14 to begin
with, and was not even allowed to be dating. ~~

Hmmmm...what you described isn't trusting OR respectful.
All that "not allowed" stuff is controlling and manipulative. No
wonder she learned that behavior.

It certainly doesn't explain murder, I'm not trying to say that. But
it's pretty obvious that she felt controlled to the degree that she
wanted to get away from her parents.

This list exists to talk about better ways to relate to our kids,
rather than limiting and controlling.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Lorrie

So then you are saying if your parents don't allow you to date, then it is perfectly all right to plan with your boyfriend to kill them??
Do you really think that a girl just turning 14 should be having sex with a boy? You don't think that her parents were looking out for her, and cared about her, so they were restricitng her from seeing a boy too old for her?
If your child isn't allowed to date at say 13 or 14 then you distrust them and disrespect them?? Are you kidding? Isn't it more like you are protecting them? "Not allowed" stuff is controlling and manipulative?? Are you saying that parents that have younger kids that are interested in say, trying drugs, having sex, and anything else that is harmful to them should be "allowed" to do these things no matter how old they are??
That isn't being manipulative or controlling, that is being a caring parent. If a kids parents are "allowing" them to do these things then they should be reported to child welfare.

Talking to your kids is great and I fully believe in that, but there are those kids that don't care and do what they want no matter what you try to teach them or talk with them about. So I am guessing in your opinion if your child does not want to listen to you then it is fine to do what they want no matter what it is.

My kids were given alot of freedom, including freedom to make mistakes. Luckily, mine never desired to try drugs, or do anything that would end up harming them. That is not always the case in every home. If they did, I certainly would have stepped in and not stood there and watched them hurt themselves. That is NOT being controlling, it is being a parent that loves their children!



----- Original Message ----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2007 8:03:17 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Ren

~~I am also pretty sure that both parents did treat all of their kids
with respect and as far as trust goes, she was told she could not date
a boy that was that much older with her, and she was only 14 to begin
with, and was not even allowed to be dating. ~~

Hmmmm...what you described isn't trusting OR respectful.
All that "not allowed" stuff is controlling and manipulative. No
wonder she learned that behavior.

It certainly doesn't explain murder, I'm not trying to say that. But
it's pretty obvious that she felt controlled to the degree that she
wanted to get away from her parents.

This list exists to talk about better ways to relate to our kids,
rather than limiting and controlling.

Ren
learninginfreedom. com






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa

Ren,
we saw similar things happen in my in-laws family. My SIL was told that the boy was
'unhealthy' for her, she was too young for a relationship (at fifteen) and what happened
was they started sneaking around. Even when things got bad for HER, there was no way
she was going to tell her parents it was out of control, because they had alienated her so
much. Two years down the line, she was dead and he was gone. All of that could have
been prevented with being able to talk to her parents, knowing that she had a safe retreat.

Sadly enough the same thing is happening with the next younger SIL (19 yo), she started
dating a guy no one approved of, and the family has completely alienated her again. The
guy has been abusive, he's been in jail for beating up previous girlfriends and his dad. She
sees his musical sensitive side, and knowing his family, I KNOW where the rage comes
from. Now that they are married, I'm sure she's not going to come back to her family for
support. i only hope that they both felt accepted enough in *our* home to ask us for any
thing they need (whether together or apart)

Sheesh. What horrible lessons to have to learn. But it has helped us with our own children
Melissa

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~I am also pretty sure that both parents did treat all of their kids
> with respect and as far as trust goes, she was told she could not date
> a boy that was that much older with her, and she was only 14 to begin
> with, and was not even allowed to be dating. ~~
>
> Hmmmm...what you described isn't trusting OR respectful.
> All that "not allowed" stuff is controlling and manipulative. No
> wonder she learned that behavior.
>

Su Penn

On Jun 7, 2007, at 9:41 AM, Lorrie wrote:

> So then you are saying if your parents don't allow you to date,
> then it is perfectly all right to plan with your boyfriend to kill
> them??
> Do you really think that a girl just turning 14 should be having
> sex with a boy? You don't think that her parents were looking out
> for her, and cared about her, so they were restricitng her from
> seeing a boy too old for her?

I don't think parents suddenly start forbidding dating following 13
years of otherwise being completely respectful and trusting. I don't
think teenage girls sneak around on their parents if they've learned
to trust their parents and their parents' judgement.

I started to reply to an earlier post on this topic and then decided
it wasn't relevant, but now I think maybe it is. When I hear about
girls in relationships with abusive or dangerous boys, who might need
help from parents but don't ask for it, who keep sneaking around to
see the boy even if they're feeling scared or troubled about it, I
think about how my parents treated me with regard to food.

My parents loved to put me into situations from which I could not
escape in any kind of face-saving way. I was cautious about trying
new foods, and they ridiculed me for it. If I hesitated to try a new
food, they harassed and shamed me. If I eventually tried it and
didn't care for it, they thought I was faking and made me eat it
anyway. If I eventually tried it and liked it, they lectured me on
how stupid I had been to think I wouldn't like it and used it as an
example of how they knew better than me and I should listen to them.
Faced with a new food, I was trapped--there was absolutely no way out
for me without being shamed, lectured, and humiliated.

Once when I was the passenger in a bad car accident, I walked through
the door of my house hoping for a "thank god you're OK" and instead
got a lecture about my failings, because I was the one who had taught
the driver of the car that rolled over how to drive a stick shift!
Way to build the trust, mom and dad!

My father was so unable to put himself into anyone else's shoes that
when I was sixteen and had long, thick hair, he could not imagine why
I would need to use more shampoo than he did--him, the guy who was
already bald in his wedding pictures at age 24. He showed me in the
palm of his hand how much shampoo he used, and said that was how much
I was allowed to use. Mr. Sensitive.

I don't want to just crank on my parents--I've mostly worked through
it for myself. But I want to show examples of how parents who would
easily have been described as good parents by outsiders were actually
unsympathetic, controlling, and judgmental. Parents who get to, "You
absolutely cannot go on a date!" usually start with, "Eat the green
beans you don't want because they're good for you and because I say
so," and they see themselves the whole time as protecting and caring
for their kids.

Suppose I'd gotten involved with, say, a drug-using abuser (I did
have a "bad boy" thing for awhile there, so it could easily have
happened, if only the bad boys had liked me back). Could I have ever
gone to my parents for help resolving that relationship? For
protection if I felt unsafe? Not likely. Heck, they criticized all my
friends and boyfriends, and I hung out with non-drinking, non-drug-
using, honor student virgins all the way through high school. There's
no way I'd have gone to my mother with a relationship crisis.

I will concede that controlling parents can be entirely well-
intentioned. But they are not building trust; they are not
communicating respect; they are not being people their children can
respect and whose judgment their children trust.

I don't know about this specific family. But I see patterns. I hope
to build a relationship with my kids, who are still young children,
that will allow me to say, "I'm concerned about your boyfriend's
behavior," and that will allow them to hear that without
defensiveness. I hope they'll be able to make their own decisions,
and trust that my non-judgmental support is there when they make
mistakes--not a big "I told you so," but a safe place they can always
come to.

Su

Sylvia Toyama

Talking to your kids is great and I fully believe in that, but there are those kids that don't care and do what they want no matter what you try to teach them or talk with them about. So I am guessing in your opinion if your child does not want to listen to you then it is fine to do what they want no matter what it is.
My kids were given alot of freedom, including freedom to make mistakes. Luckily, mine never desired to try drugs, or do anything that would end up harming them. That is not always the case in every home. If they did, I certainly would have stepped in and not stood there and watched them hurt themselves. That is NOT being controlling, it is being a parent that loves their children!


****
Those kids who 'do what they want' no matter what you try to teach them -- first, why would they want to do things that are harmful to them? What unmet need do they have? When a kid doesn't care about their own safety, and doesn't listen to his parents' concerns, that's a kid who doesn't feel his parents understand him, where he is right in that moment.

My oldest did any number of things that I tried to forbid. He did them anyway, because he was trying on new things, or because he felt frustrated and thwarted, like he needed more control over his own life. Looking back, he was right. I didn't understand what he was all about, and I was too intent on protecting him from his genetic risks, from turning out like my brother, or my ex (ds' bio-dad), or every other jerk guy I ever knew. Not that he was really a bad kid, but I let my own past and fears get the best of me. I panicked, and let others tell me what I 'had to' do about him.

Then, (when Will was 16, and I had my hands full with a 4yo and a newborn) the school called me to ask when he'd be coming back -- he'd skipped the last two weeks. While I was driving him to school, he was literally walking out the back door. I tracked him down at a friends house, found him high as a kite and brought him home. That got my attention -- I'd let him down. I didn't know what to do next, but something had to be done to help my son. I talked to my Mom, the schools, my dh, and a few 'experts' -- then I had an epiphany! I talked to my son. That sweet boy I knew was in there somewhere -- what did he want? He hated school, he was sad and discouraged, and frustrated and thought he was stupid. Stupid?!

Control wasn't the answer -- giving him autonomy was. We pulled him out of school, which led to not sending the younger two boys to school at all. Helping Will -- and ourselves -- wasn't quick or easy, it wasn't all progress all the time. He left home twice, once for 3 wks until Dan had a health crisis and Will came home to be with his baby brother; again when he was 18, for just over 2 yrs. Now, he's out on his own. Still, he makes choices that worry me, but it's his life, not mine. This is his path -- I spent enough time when he was younger getting in his way, as I worked thru my own past. He'll do whatever he feels he 'needs' to do, and he may or may not consult me. He'll make some poor choices, and have some painful moments, then he'll pick himself up and figure out what to do next.

I'm pretty sure that if we'd tried to control him, it would have only been uglier, and more expensive, and more painful for everyone. How do I know this? Because that's how he was born -- others tried to control me, to tell me what I couldn't do, who I couldn't be, who I shouldn't marry, why I shouldn't have a child. Did I listen to them? No-o-o, because I knew better -- okay maybe not better, but I wasn't about to let them know that. I wasn't about to let them control me for another minute of my life. I'd show them! And by 22 my life was a huge mess -- drugs, abusive husband, baby on the way. Suddenly, it was time to grow up, and the last people I wanted any help from was my parents.

And, for the record, -- people (kids included) make mistakes all the time, whether not you give them permission to do so. <g>

Sylvia





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On 6/7/07, Lorrie <iamhisservant4ever@...> wrote:
>
> So then you are saying if your parents don't allow you to date, then it
> is perfectly all right to plan with your boyfriend to kill them??
>




I cannot imagine a 14 year old, told no for the first time with great
understanding, would do such a thing. Oh, but wait, we're NOT talking about
a child who has been honored and respected for her first 14 years. NOT a
child who has an open, loving, non-judgmental relationship with her parents.
This seems to me to be the actions of a girl who is just plain fed up with
arbitrary limits imposed upon her by her parents, from whom she's separated
herself long ago. 14 year olds who are honored, loved and respected, who are
attached to their parents (and vice-versa) don't do this. I swear! I've met
many, many unschooled teens and not a single homicidal maniac/conspirator in
the bunch. I've heard a few grumble, though, against occasional
arbitrariness of parents. Not to the homicidal level, as this kind of
*spirit squelching* doesn't regularly occur with unschoolers.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

> Do you really think that a girl just turning 14 should be having sex with
> a boy? You don't think that her parents were looking out for her, and cared
> about her, so they were restricitng her from seeing a boy too old for her?
>





Sex as a forbidden fruit. Ick! Is she having sex only to piss off her
parents or because she really wants to express her love in a physical way?
She might answer B when the answer is really A. Of the teens I knew growing
up, the ones who got pregnant didn't do so out of desire to procreate, it
was a desire to get back or get away from their arbitrarily controlling
parents. The girl who was never allowed to talk to boys was the first and
youngest of our group to become active and pregnant.
Again, though, remember we're NOT talking about a child who was mindfully
parented, let alone unschooled. Unschooling creates a totally different
relationship.
Of the unschooling kids I've talked Sex with (again, a big number), most
have had the regular mechanical questions, some safety concerns, and the
very best conversation I ever had was with an 18 year old who was/is
committed to being a sweet, considerate, pleasuring lover of his girlfriend,
whom he is madly in love with. I've yet to meet a one who is participating
in sexual behaviours out of a lack of self-worth or lack of available
love/connections at home.
-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

> If your child isn't allowed to date at say 13 or 14 then you distrust them
> and disrespect them?? Are you kidding? Isn't it more like you are protecting
> them? "Not allowed" stuff is controlling and manipulative?? Are you saying
> that parents that have younger kids that are interested in say, trying
> drugs, having sex, and anything else that is harmful to them should be
> "allowed" to do these things no matter how old they are??
>








These topics should certainly be addressed LONG before the kids are
interested in participating. We talk about sex on a regular basis, it's
just one of those topics that comes up organically and is spoken about in a
very matter-of-fact way. I really feel it's a natural part of life as a
human being.
Drugs? I love the book *From Chocolate to Morphine: Everything You Need to
Know About Mind-Altering Drugs* and I address the topic of Drugs with this
perspective, even pointing out the hypocrisies of drug use in our society
(Drug Free schools sponsored by Pepsi, AA meetings where *sober* folk ingest
nicotine, caffeine and sugar wantonly). I also like the perspective of Ain't
Nobody's Business if You Do, as it relates to the insanity of consensual
crimes in America. Talked about with/around my kids a lot.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

> That isn't being manipulative or controlling, that is being a caring
> parent. If a kids parents are "allowing" them to do these things then they
> should be reported to child welfare.
>





Restricting your child's actions based on your own fears is Manipulative and
Controlling. It's not respectful nor honoring of the human being before
you. Smash a marshmallow with your thumb. How much of it actually stays
there?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

> Talking to your kids is great and I fully believe in that, but there are
> those kids that don't care and do what they want no matter what you try to
> teach them or talk with them about. So I am guessing in your opinion if your
> child does not want to listen to you then it is fine to do what they want no
> matter what it is.
>






I have yet to meet even one unschooled kid who behaves/feels this way, and
I've met many. Have you?
It's really cool when an unschooled teen comes to me for advice (on Sex,
Drugs, Parents, you name it) I know they're not asking me because they can't
ask their moms, they're asking because they want *my* opinion to add to
their repertoire, as another trusted adult. Not THE trusted adult.

Sometimes my own son doesn't want to hear what I have to say. Usually
because he's plumb tired of hearing me say it the same way too many times.
That issue lies within ME, not him. Taking a deep breath, empathizing with
him, asking questions to figger out exactly what he's looking for - those
are what help foster our communications. Thinking *Fine!* and working myself
into a frothing huff is not serving either of us, nor is it helping our
relationship.

And yeah, if your kid is gonna *do it anyway* it's certainly better to have
a parent (or two) on their side, to address safety (emotional and physical)
and comfort and ensure communication.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

> My kids were given alot of freedom, including freedom to make mistakes.
> Luckily, mine never desired to try drugs, or do anything that would end up
> harming them. That is not always the case in every home. If they did, I
> certainly would have stepped in and not stood there and watched them hurt
> themselves. That is NOT being controlling, it is being a parent that loves
> their children!
>







So, you're saying that if I see Hayden jump precariously close to the edge
of the trampoline, I should remove him and order him to stay off of it? It
worked out just fine for us that he bumped his shin (his great story of how
he *broke his leg* at age 4), he was welcomed and comforted by his watching
mama, he then took another "deep breath of courage" and got back on the
tramp. And has been happily jumping ever since.

When folks are paranoid about drugs and sex with their kids, I always worry
they're gonna lie to the kids and erode an imperative Trust between parents
and spawn.
Cocaine kills! Til the first time the kid tries it and doesn't die. Then
what? They (the parents) must have lied about everything else! Sex kills!
Til the first time the kid does it and doesn't die. Honest, judgment free
conversations are the best birth control I've ever known.

There are lots of things I don't want to be in this world - Liar tops that
list. Hypocrite being a close second.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Erica Iwamura

So then you are saying if your parents don't allow you to date, then it is
perfectly all right to plan with your boyfriend to kill them??

I don't think thats what Ren is saying at all. I think its more of the
issue of opening communication with our children at an early age and
building trust (in each other) so that they don't feel that they have to
sneak around when they get older. If the communication had been open at a
young age she and her parents would have been able to have a reasonable and
respectful discussion about dating and she probably would have come to the
conclusion on her own about whether she was ready to date ot not. I know
that when I was 13 or 14 they had school dances and groups going to movies
and such. Its hard to be part of that when you're "not allowed" to be. I
hope that makes sense...

Erica

On 6/7/07, Lorrie <iamhisservant4ever@...> wrote:
>
> So then you are saying if your parents don't allow you to date, then it
> is perfectly all right to plan with your boyfriend to kill them??
> Do you really think that a girl just turning 14 should be having sex with
> a boy? You don't think that her parents were looking out for her, and cared
> about her, so they were restricitng her from seeing a boy too old for her?
> If your child isn't allowed to date at say 13 or 14 then you distrust them
> and disrespect them?? Are you kidding? Isn't it more like you are protecting
> them? "Not allowed" stuff is controlling and manipulative?? Are you saying
> that parents that have younger kids that are interested in say, trying
> drugs, having sex, and anything else that is harmful to them should be
> "allowed" to do these things no matter how old they are??
> That isn't being manipulative or controlling, that is being a caring
> parent. If a kids parents are "allowing" them to do these things then they
> should be reported to child welfare.
>
> Talking to your kids is great and I fully believe in that, but there are
> those kids that don't care and do what they want no matter what you try to
> teach them or talk with them about. So I am guessing in your opinion if your
> child does not want to listen to you then it is fine to do what they want no
> matter what it is.
>
> My kids were given alot of freedom, including freedom to make mistakes.
> Luckily, mine never desired to try drugs, or do anything that would end up
> harming them. That is not always the case in every home. If they did, I
> certainly would have stepped in and not stood there and watched them hurt
> themselves. That is NOT being controlling, it is being a parent that loves
> their children!
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@... <starsuncloud%40comcast.net>>
> To: [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2007 8:03:17 AM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Ren
>
> ~~I am also pretty sure that both parents did treat all of their kids
> with respect and as far as trust goes, she was told she could not date
> a boy that was that much older with her, and she was only 14 to begin
> with, and was not even allowed to be dating. ~~
>
> Hmmmm...what you described isn't trusting OR respectful.
> All that "not allowed" stuff is controlling and manipulative. No
> wonder she learned that behavior.
>
> It certainly doesn't explain murder, I'm not trying to say that. But
> it's pretty obvious that she felt controlled to the degree that she
> wanted to get away from her parents.
>
> This list exists to talk about better ways to relate to our kids,
> rather than limiting and controlling.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom. com
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail,
> news, photos & more.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
They say I'm Crazy but I Have a Good Time - Joe Walsh


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

My SIL was told that the boy was 'unhealthy' for her, she was too young for a relationship (at fifteen) and what happened was they started sneaking around. Even when things got bad for HER, there was no way she was going to tell her parents it was out of control, because they had alienated her so much. Two years down the line, she was dead and he was gone. All of that could have been prevented with being able to talk to her parents, knowing that she had a safe retreat.

****
Oh, yeah, nothing makes a bad boy look better to a girl than having her parents tell her that he's wrong for her. I heard that from my parents about my first dh -- and really about several other boyfriends before him. It only made me determined to prove them wrong, because then they'd have to admit I was right. That was all I really wanted. For someone to admit that maybe, just once, I was right in my choices. A little validation for what mattered to me. They felt they had to tell me he was wrong for me -- what, did they think I was stupid, too? In addition to being wrong, and confused, I was just plain too stupid to make my own choices?

Yep, telling your child their choice of partner is wrong is fighting words, guaranteed to push them so far away that when they need help (and they will) they won't ask you. Sometimes, like I did, they ask for your help when it's already too big a mess, but I was the minority. Most of the girls I knew who screwed up their lives never asked their parents for help -- or worse, they did and the parents didn't step up to the plate.

Sylvia



---------------------------------
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Lorrie <iamhisservant4ever@...>

Not Ren, but...

-=-=-=-=

So then you are saying if your parents don't allow you to date, then it
is
perfectly all right to plan with your boyfriend to kill them??

-=-=-=

No, what we're saying is that, if you don't allow your child to date,
she will feel controlled and needy and unheard, so she will be dating
whether you want her to---or even KNOW about it---and she won't come to
you when she's in trouble. And that, yes, the probablility that she
will do *something* (although generally not that drastic) is high.

-=-=-=-=-

Do you really think that a girl just turning 14 should be having sex
with a boy?

-=-=-=-=-

Depends on the girl and why.

At what age do *you* think it's OK?

-=-=-=-=-

You don't think that her parents were looking out for her, and cared
about her,
so they were restricitng her from seeing a boy too old for her?

-=-=-=-

I think that that's what they *thought* they were doing.

I also think that she felt they were suffocating her.

It really only matters what *she* thought, doesn't it?

-=-=-=-=-

If your child isn't allowed to date at say 13 or 14 then you distrust
them and
disrespect them??

-=-=-=-=-

If your child isn't allowed to make decisions, are you distrusting and
disrepecting her?

-=-=-=-==-

Are you kidding? Isn't it more like you are protecting them?

-=-=-=-

Depends. What are you protecting her from?

When a child doesn't feel heard or respected, where is she to go? Whom
is she supposed to trust? If her parents don't believe her or trust
her, what do you expect her to do? Sit there and trust *them*???

-=-=-=-=-

"Not allowed" stuff is controlling and manipulative??

-=-=-=-

Uh huh. What else is "not allowed?"

How can youdisallow something and NOT be controlling and manipulative?
How???

-=-=-=-=-

Are you saying that parents that have younger kids that are interested
in say, trying drugs, having
sex, and anything else that is harmful to them should be "allowed" to
do these
things no matter how old they are??


--=-=-=-

I didn't think age has anything to do with it.

I think it has everything to do with the child's maturity level (how
many 8 year olds do you know that even want to see others KISSING?) and
communication and respect and trust.

My now 19 year old son and his girlfriend started having sex when he
was 15 and she was 14. Was I thrilled? No. But they aren't me. They
have been together now more than four years. I don't consider sex to be
"harnful"---I consider it to be a natural part of life and living. I
hope that is the attitude he keeps. He's a very giving, considerate,
kind boyfriend.

He also did a few drugs. Again---I was not thrilled, but I kept the
lines of communication waaaay open, and we discussed when and why and
all about DUI and being smart about what he was doing. He knew not to
drive while high---that I would come get him or that he could stay over
rather than drive---both of which happened. He just called to let us
know whether he would stay or have us pick him up. We did pick him up
on several occasions without ANY shame or ridicule. I'd MUCH rather
have him honest and safe than sneaking and in danger.

That's not a hard call. Really!

-=-=-=-=-

That isn't being manipulative or controlling, that is being a caring
parent. If
a kids parents are "allowing" them to do these things then they should
be
reported to child welfare.

-=-=-=-=-

Good luck!

Most kids do it anyway---just behind their parents' backs. ALL of
Cameron's friends, as a matter of fact!

I'm "allowing" it because it will happen anyway. I would rather know
what he's doing and where than have him sneak and lie.

I'm not *condoning* it. But I'm not *forbidding* it either.

I'm smarter than that.

His safety is more important than what other controlling parents tihnk
of me. He know I trust him. He trusts me too.

-=-=-=-

Talking to your kids is great and I fully believe in that, but there
are those
kids that don't care and do what they want no matter what you try to
teach them
or talk with them about.

-=-=-=-=-

That's not my experience. Children who are respected and trusted from a
young age DO care what you talk with them about.

-=-=-=-=-

So I am guessing in your opinion if your child does not
want to listen to you then it is fine to do what they want no matter
what it is.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Well, due to respect and trust---long-term---my children WILL listen to
me.

They may not make the same choices I would, but that's not my goal.
Trust is. And the only way to get it is to give it.

-=-=-==-

My kids were given alot of freedom, including freedom to make mistakes.
Luckily,
mine never desired to try drugs, or do anything that would end up
harming them.
That is not always the case in every home. If they did, I certainly
would have
stepped in and not stood there and watched them hurt themselves. That
is NOT
being controlling, it is being a parent that loves their children!

-=-=-=-

So I don't love my children?

I don't consider them mistakes, but *learning*-takes. My older son DID
choose to do drugs for a while and still has sex with his girlfriend.
He's way less harmed due to trust and respect than he would have been
had I forbidden or shamed him.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: diana jenner <hahamommy@...>

Of the unschooling kids I've talked Sex with (again, a big number), most
have had the regular mechanical questions, some safety concerns, and the
very best conversation I ever had was with an 18 year old who was/is
committed to being a sweet, considerate, pleasuring lover of his
girlfriend,
whom he is madly in love with. I've yet to meet a one who is
participating
in sexual behaviours out of a lack of self-worth or lack of available
love/connections at home.

-=-=-

I'm guessing that this is *my* 18---now 19---year old, Cameron. <g> I
guess I could be wrong. <g>

Cameron has had several deep conversations with Diana. He knows he can
talk with me---and we have had many, many conversations about sex and
relationships. But he really enjoys his (limited) time with Diana.

Children who aren't told, "no" Stop" "don't" "never" will trust you to
be honest and open with them. They will be honest and open back.

Isn't THAT what we want?



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/7/2007 4:08:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

Children who aren't told, "no" Stop" "don't" "never" will trust you to
be honest and open with them. They will be honest and open back.

Isn't THAT what we want?


I am seeing that with Grace, my soon-to-be 15 year old. She is returning
home to me after a year at her Dad's, hoping for structure, containment...ugh
ugh ugh...Yet she confided in me, trusts me...and I thin we will be getting her
into unschooling too - my heart says it's happening, just a matter of time.

Karen



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kristenhendricks55

I just wanted to throw in my two cents on the topic.

I wasn't unschooled, nor was I never told "NO".. but I think my
parents trusted me to make up my own mind on most things. I can't
remember even being grounded, or "in trouble"... but I know they
always told me that drinking/smoking.drugs/sex probably werent the
best things for a teenager, but I know there was never a "NO"
involved.

That said... I think I PROBABLY would have been the typical teenager
and rebelled against them had they told me "NO you CANT"... but they
didn't. The only NO I got from them was a "NO" to dye my hair pink
(the week before senior pictures)... then the next day after pics I
dyed it and got my eyebrow pierced the same day. And my mom thought
it was cool!! It was more of a "I scratch your back, you scratch
mine" kind of deal if you know what I mean.

Now, I am only 22 so I'm not looking back and preaching about how I
was raised... just telling the honest truth about something that
happened to me not very long ago at all.

I was 15 and was at a party and got wasted. A friend dropped me off
at home and my mom helped me up the steps into bed and never had a
negative word to say. I woke up in the morning very sick and after my
dad helped me strip my bed (and laughing the whole time by the way
lol) my mom was waiting downstairs with a huge plate of bacon and
eggs. I ran straight back to the bathroom and was there for the next
hour. She knew exactly what she was doing. She wasnt going to lecture
me or preach to me... but she knew how to get to me (with the
disgusting aroma of BACON on an upset stomach) without saying a word.
I told her I never wanted to see a drink again in my life, and she
said... "well next time maybe I wont make bacon"... the smartass LOL

I can honestly say I havent had a drink since.


I have NEVER smoked a cigarette or done any drugs... only because I
hated the idea of even taking tylenol for a headache. I just didn't
like putting things into my body that would alter my
thinking/feelings. And that was just my choice. And I wasn't the
church going "goody two-shoes". I hung out with the party crowd and I
did things I shouldnt have, and when everyone else was smoking and
drinking... I laughed right along... but I never touched any of it.



I don't think anything a parent "threatens" a kid with will change
what they think. My parents could have preached to the moon and back
about sex, and it wouldnt have made a difference. I met who I wanted
to be with when I was 17 and had my first child when I was 18. Why on
earth would I believe that someone else was more qualified to make
that choice than I was? It was my body and my life. I wouldn't sit
and preach to my mom about how to cut her hair. It's not my place.
But I WILL tell her that I think that the haircut she wants might not
look so hot on her. But in the end, she's going to do what she thinks
is best. Just like she wouldn't tell me when, where, and who to have
relationships with. That will only make a teen want to rebel against
you (and even if the kid doesnt even know if he/she wants to have sex
yet, it may make him OVERLY eager to try it because its "forbidden")
so why ruin the bond if you don't need to?



A kid who sees a bright red bench runs over to it and puts his hand
out to touch it... and his mom says "NO!! IT'S WET!!"... and he still
touches it. Why? Because he was going to anyway... The same kid could
have learned that on his own by touching it without being told no.
You have the same outcome in both scenarios...


Since I think that my kids learn the most from things they discover
on their own... I think maybe some people could benefit from trying
it for a day. Don't lecture your teen about sex. Don't tell her no.
Don't forbid her to see someone who is too old for her and might lead
her to engage in sexual activities. Let her learn on her own. Send
her to my house for a day. I have three children under three years
old. If she doesn't want her tubes tied before the day is done...
then maybe she IS ready for sex :)




--- In [email protected], Kidgie@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 6/7/2007 4:08:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> kbcdlovejo@... writes:
>
> Children who aren't told, "no" Stop" "don't" "never" will trust
you to
> be honest and open with them. They will be honest and open back.
>
> Isn't THAT what we want?
>
>
> I am seeing that with Grace, my soon-to-be 15 year old. She is
returning
> home to me after a year at her Dad's, hoping for structure,
containment...ugh
> ugh ugh...Yet she confided in me, trusts me...and I thin we will be
getting her
> into unschooling too - my heart says it's happening, just a matter
of time.
>
> Karen
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's free at
http://www.aol.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ren Allen

~~~So then you are saying if your parents don't allow you to date,
then it is perfectly all right to plan with your boyfriend to kill
them??~~~~


Did you read my post? I said: "It certainly doesn't explain murder,
I'm not trying to say that. But it's pretty obvious that she felt
controlled to the degree that she wanted to get away from her parents."

How does one extrapolate that I'm justifying murder from the above
statement? I very clearly stated that the murder was not able to be
explained by control issues alone, but it was clearly a factor for
that particular child.

I was controlled in many areas but never wanted to kill my parents. I
DO remember having some pretty angry/violent thoughts towards them at
times though. Being controlled by another human being doesn't foster
happy feelings or trusting relationships.


~~Do you really think that a girl just turning 14 should be having sex
with a boy? You don't think that her parents were looking out for her,
and cared about her, so they were restricitng her from seeing a boy
too old for her?~~

Apparently what her parents thought wasn't as important as what she
needed/wanted. Do you really think that a parent can truly keep a
child from having sex if they choose to? I think that most parents
believe they can control their children but it's only an illusion.
They just never hear about the stuff they react to, because the child
learns not to talk about it very early in life.

~~If your child isn't allowed to date at say 13 or 14 then you
distrust them and disrespect them?? Are you kidding? Isn't it more
like you are protecting them?~~

Most parents would think they are protecting their children. How well
would these same tactics work with other adults? How trusting is it to
forbid? Obviously the control tactics don't work, judging by the
amount of children that hide stuff from their parents. I don't
"allow" or "disallow", I try to help them get what they want in life
while respecting each of our needs.

Parents have a much greater chance of imparting their wisdom if they
are trusted by a child. And by trusted, I mean that the child can
trust them with information that may be difficult for the parent and
the parent still treats them as whole and capable human beings.


~~"Not allowed" stuff is controlling and manipulative?? ~~

If your spouse/partner didn't allow you to do something, how would
that affect your relationship? If he/she doesn't forbid you, then why
don't you do lots of harmful things? If people need control in order
to make healthy positive choices, then how are you (or me, or anyone)
able to make perfectly good decisions for our lives? Being an adult
doesn't make you magically capable. Humans that have a support system
that involves other humans willing to support and love and share
information have a pretty high chance of making good choices for their
own lives.

~~That isn't being manipulative or controlling, that is being a caring
parent. If a kids parents are "allowing" them to do these things then
they should be reported to child welfare.~~

Interesting.
I have a 17 year old son that is in a pretty intense relationship
right now. I had his girlfriend up here the last three weekends in a
row. If they wanted to have sex, they could. I don't kid myself that I
have any control over that.

He also knows that I support and trust him. I've shared information
with him and interestingly enough, he continues to be very open with
me. He shares things with me that I would NEVER have talked with my
parents about....why? Because we DO have trust between us.

The most interesting thing though? He chooses (at this point) to not
have sex. His point of view is that he isn't ready for the possibility
of a baby. He knows how to prevent that, but he also realizes it's
always a risk and he's just not ready for that yet. Will I know when
he makes a different choice? Not necessarily. But he does know that if
he shares information with me, he will get a calm and supportive
parent listening and answering any questions he might have without the
weight of judgement. Trust is powerful.


~~Talking to your kids is great and I fully believe in that, but there
are those kids that don't care and do what they want no matter what
you try to teach them or talk with them about.~~

I don't try to teach my kids. I trust that they will learn what they
need, when they need it. They make different choices than I would.
That's their right and supporting their journey in life is more
important to me than trying to get them to choose the way I think is best.

~~So I am guessing in your opinion if your child does not want to
listen to you then it is fine to do what they want no matter what it is.~~


I pretty much try to help them get whatever they want/need/desire, so
there really aren't any lines to cross in that regard.
People mostly want to live a happy, healthy life. When a person tries
to do truly harmful things, there are usually good reasons for that.
So far, my kids have proven me right by not desiring anything truly
harmful.....
Trusting them is the best way to live. Examining the reasons behind
what a person chooses, leads to far more understanding than any
forbidding. I think punishment and forbidding are taking the easy way
out really. Examining issues, discussing and using some creative
thinking take a lot more time, but the results are much healthier
relationships and happier families.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Lorrie

~~~So then you are saying if your parents don't allow you to date,
then it is perfectly all right to plan with your boyfriend to kill
them??~~~~

Did you read my post? I said: "It certainly doesn't explain murder,
I'm not trying to say that. But it's pretty obvious that she felt
controlled to the degree that she wanted to get away from her parents."
yes, i read you post and that is why i asked you this question. Obvious? how was all this obvious to you? Did you know this family, did the paper say at some point that she was being controlled by her family? How do you know that she wanted to get away from her parents? Was this something you read also, or are you a crime expert?

How does one extrapolate that I'm justifying murder from the above
statement? I very clearly stated that the murder was not able to be
explained by control issues alone, but it was clearly a factor for
that particular child.
Clearly a factor for that child? Again, did you know this family so well that you can make this statement. Funny how you referred to her as a child yet you still seem to stand by the fact that she should have been allowed to have sex. Sorry, but at her age agreeing to her having sex with an 18 year old should be considered child abuse. Any parent that would think that is fine, in my opinion, is sick!

I was controlled in many areas but never wanted to kill my parents. I
DO remember having some pretty angry/violent thoughts towards them at
times though. Being controlled by another human being doesn't foster
happy feelings or trusting relationships.
It seems that you have some baggage from when you were a child and that is what this is all about. And once again being controlling and looking out for your child are two completely different things. Why in the world would you have a child and then just let them try to make it on their own without any intervention to help them is beyond me.

~~Do you really think that a girl just turning 14 should be having sex
with a boy? You don't think that her parents were looking out for her,
and cared about her, so they were restricting her from seeing a boy
too old for her?~~

Apparently what her parents thought wasn't as important as what she
needed/wanted. Do you really think that a parent can truly keep a
child from having sex if they choose to? I think that most parents
believe they can control their children but it's only an illusion.
They just never hear about the stuff they react to, because the child
learns not to talk about it very early in life.
What she needed/wanted?? So you are saying that a 13 year old girl is mentally capable of carrying on a sexual relationship with a boy that is 18?? Are you crazy? Do you really believe that a child should be allowed to make a decision to have sex at such a young age. Do you also believe that if a child decides they need/want to take drugs then that is fine as well??

~~If your child isn't allowed to date at say 13 or 14 then you
distrust them and disrespect them?? Are you kidding? Isn't it more
like you are protecting them?~~

Most parents would think they are protecting their children. How well
would these same tactics work with other adults? How trusting is it to
forbid? Obviously the control tactics don't work, judging by the
amount of children that hide stuff from their parents. I don't
"allow" or "disallow", I try to help them get what they want in life
while respecting each of our needs.
We are not talking about adults here, we are talking about children. How trusting is it to forbid? It isn't a matter of trusting in this case. She was told she couldn't see him and they trusted that she wasn't. I help my children get what they want in life as well, but if when my daughter was 13 and came to me and said that she was going to have sex with an 18 year old boy, you can bet your ass I wouldn't have let that happen. Not because I am a control freak, because I am a caring, loving mother who has looked out for my kids.

Parents have a much greater chance of imparting their wisdom if they
are trusted by a child. And by trusted, I mean that the child can
trust them with information that may be difficult for the parent and
the parent still treats them as whole and capable human beings.
Both of my kids trust me completely and I trust them as well. They were brought up with good morals and lots of love. Both know that they can come to me with anything and will never be judged, ridiculed, or make me think any less of them. They have never been treated as anything but capable human beings.

~~"Not allowed" stuff is controlling and manipulative? ? ~~

If your spouse/partner didn't allow you to do something, how would
that affect your relationship? If he/she doesn't forbid you, then why
don't you do lots of harmful things? If people need control in order
to make healthy positive choices, then how are you (or me, or anyone)
able to make perfectly good decisions for our lives? Being an adult
doesn't make you magically capable. Humans that have a support system
that involves other humans willing to support and love and share
information have a pretty high chance of making good choices for their
own lives.
We are no talking about spouse/partners, or any other adults. These are children that trust us with their lives.

~~That isn't being manipulative or controlling, that is being a caring
parent. If a kids parents are "allowing" them to do these things then
they should be reported to child welfare.~~

Interesting.
I have a 17 year old son that is in a pretty intense relationship
right now. I had his girlfriend up here the last three weekends in a
row. If they wanted to have sex, they could. I don't kid myself that I
have any control over that.

He also knows that I support and trust him. I've shared information
with him and interestingly enough, he continues to be very open with
me. He shares things with me that I would NEVER have talked with my
parents about....why? Because we DO have trust between us.
My 16 year old daughter is also in an intense relationship. Her boyfriend comes here to stay for a week or longer every month. I trust them both and they trust me. They are not afraid to tell me anything or ask my opinion on anything as well. What goes on between them is no one elses business. But, if she were only 13 I would not have allowed, OMG I said allowed!!, a relationship this intense. Not because I ever "controlled" her, but because I love her.







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Meredith

--- In [email protected], Lorrie
<iamhisservant4ever@...> wrote:
>> If your child isn't allowed to date at say 13 or 14 then you
>distrust them and disrespect them?? Are you kidding? Isn't it more
>like you are protecting them?

I wasn't allowed to date at 14, but I still found ways to have sex
with boys. "Nice" boys, too. I didn't use a condom until college,
though. That's a scary thought, in retrospect.

My stepson met a girl at 4H camp and they dated for several months.
Her mom didn't let them be alone together and restricted the amount
of time they spent on the phone, so the girl started waiting until
her parents were asleep to call. I'm glad they broke up before
summer - I fully expected her to start sneaking over here. Yikes. My
stepson had condoms and practiced with them - its a good idea, they
can be a bit tricky "in the moment" if you aren't used to them. That
was reassuring to me, that he was thinking ahead like that.

I'd rather trust my kids to use protection than hope they aren't
having unsafe sex behind my back.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13 - yes, 13)

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Sylvia Toyama <sylgt04@...>
wrote:
> Oh, yeah, nothing makes a bad boy look better to a girl than
>having her parents tell her that he's wrong for her.

I was so relieved when Ray figured this out. He was the "bad boy" in
school - still looks the part with his dyed-black hair and skull
tshirts. His girlfriend's mom, as I mentioned, didn't like or trust
him, and his girlfriend used that as a power-ploy with her mom. When
Ray finally figured out that his girlfriend had been playing up
his "badness" - to the point of repeating things he'd said in
confidence - and was pretty unhappy about it. That's when he decided
to break up with her. He wanted to be liked for his whole self, not
just his "badness".

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

Su Penn

On Jun 8, 2007, at 9:58 AM, Meredith wrote:

> --- In [email protected], Lorrie
> <iamhisservant4ever@...> wrote:
>>> If your child isn't allowed to date at say 13 or 14 then you
>> distrust them and disrespect them?? Are you kidding? Isn't it more
>> like you are protecting them?
>
> I wasn't allowed to date at 14, but I still found ways to have sex
> with boys. "Nice" boys, too. I didn't use a condom until college,
> though. That's a scary thought, in retrospect.

Yeah, my mom had rules like "no boyfriends in my bedroom or alone
with me in the TV room." So when we wanted to make out, we went out
into the fields and stomped down a little circle of wheat to make a
secret room, or snuck into the barns on the farms nearby. The parents
all had a rule about not taking walks alone with a boy, but my
girlfriends and I were perfectly happy to act as a pretend chaperone
for each other--to walk off, visibly the third person, and then sit
in a tree or in a different part of the barn and read a book for two
hours while the heavy petting was going on. I was as young as 12 when
this was going on.

I had a strict curfew, so once I was 16 and was allowed to date one
of my boyfriends used to just pick up fast food on the way to pick me
up, and we would just go park for the whole evening, about half a
mile from my house.

I was paranoid about pregnancy and never had unprotected sex--I was
technically a virgin until I was 19, but I was pretty much an
"everything but" girl from about 13. I'm not sure it did me any harm
at all, even though, when I look at my 13-year-old niece, she seems
very young and it is a bit disturbing to imagine her doing the things
I did at 13. I guess I just didn't feel as young at the time as she
looks to me now! I was mostly messing around with really sweet boys--
it wasn't until I got into college and discovered fraternity boys
that I experienced pressuring assholes.

I'm not sure it did me harm, but if I'd had stronger self-esteem, I
might have done less of it. Some of my motivation was that I really
liked it, and some of my motivation was that it made me feel the boys
liked me. Nobody at home liked me. Maybe if they had, I wouldn't have
looked for sexual reassurance. Hard to say.

Su

Ren Allen

~~Clearly a factor for that child? Again, did you know this family so
well that
you can make this statement. ~~


Um.....she plotted with her boyfriend to kill them!! Does that not
make it pretty damn obvious that she wanted to be AWAY from them?
Nobody needs to be a crime expert or know that family to understand
that she did NOT want to be around her parents. I would think plotting
to kill someone sort of puts you in that category. Hmmmm.....

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Lorrie

Actually plotting to kill someone else, be it your parent, or a stranger, in my opinion would make you insane. If at that age I didn't want to be around my parents I would have found a way out, I certainly wouldn't have killed them, or had someone else do it. And.....I would love to know how you know that she :plotted" to kill her parents. When did she tell you that? Where was that ever said. That is all heresay and speculation. Yes, it was definitely speculated but never a fact in the case. If it had been a proven fact she wouldn't be on the loose right now, enjoying her freedom, while her parents are dead, and the boy that she supposedly "loved," is in prison for the rest of his life. hmmmmmmmm....................

~~Clearly a factor for that child? Again, did you know this family so
well that
you can make this statement. ~~

Um.....she plotted with her boyfriend to kill them!! Does that not
make it pretty damn obvious that she wanted to be AWAY from them?
Nobody needs to be a crime expert or know that family to understand
that she did NOT want to be around her parents. I would think plotting
to kill someone sort of puts you in that category. Hmmmm.....

Ren
learninginfreedom. com






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