Post for anon member
Ren Allen
From a member I think might like to remain anon for this one:
One of the boys didn't shut the door on the big freezer all the way
yesterday, and ruined about $200 worth of food. Maybe more, I am
trying to salvage some of it. DH was so furious at them, yelling
cursing and informing them they were going to school so they could
learn something! Both of them have been told many times they have to
push on the door of the freezer to make sure they have shut it all the
way. Not only that they have also been told not to open the freezer.
This happened yesterday after returning home from delgrosso amusement
park, where we went to get their baseball trophies, but did not stay
all afternoon to go on rides as planned due to their disobedient
behavior the night before. they were told that night that they would
not be able to go if they continued their behavior, and J even said,
ok! in the morning I said to DH, lets go and get the trophies and then
come home. So that's what we did. I did purchase tickets to go on
one ride. Jeffrey was very upset that we couldn't do anything else.
So much for not wanting to punish, eh?
I had a
conversation with them both about what it means when we say Stop and
Don't. They just don't care, they want to do what they want to do!
Yes I want them to be free and do what they want, as long as it does
not conflict with what they have been told! I am so tired of their
wilful destructive behavior. Maybe I should just give in and send them
to school! But that won't solve the behavior problems, it will just
cause more problems. Any
ideas????
One of the boys didn't shut the door on the big freezer all the way
yesterday, and ruined about $200 worth of food. Maybe more, I am
trying to salvage some of it. DH was so furious at them, yelling
cursing and informing them they were going to school so they could
learn something! Both of them have been told many times they have to
push on the door of the freezer to make sure they have shut it all the
way. Not only that they have also been told not to open the freezer.
This happened yesterday after returning home from delgrosso amusement
park, where we went to get their baseball trophies, but did not stay
all afternoon to go on rides as planned due to their disobedient
behavior the night before. they were told that night that they would
not be able to go if they continued their behavior, and J even said,
ok! in the morning I said to DH, lets go and get the trophies and then
come home. So that's what we did. I did purchase tickets to go on
one ride. Jeffrey was very upset that we couldn't do anything else.
So much for not wanting to punish, eh?
I had a
conversation with them both about what it means when we say Stop and
Don't. They just don't care, they want to do what they want to do!
Yes I want them to be free and do what they want, as long as it does
not conflict with what they have been told! I am so tired of their
wilful destructive behavior. Maybe I should just give in and send them
to school! But that won't solve the behavior problems, it will just
cause more problems. Any
ideas????
Momma
You taught your children many lessons through this episode. You taught them
that it is acceptable to treat people we love like crap when they make
mistakes.
You also taught them that their feelings and sense of well being are worth
$200 to you and your husband. What a petty amount to loose your child's
trust over. It's a shame that your children aren't worth more than that to
you and it's also a shame that they know it.
-Dawn
One of the boys didn't shut the door on the big freezer all the way
yesterday, and ruined about $200 worth of food. Maybe more, I am
trying to salvage some of it. DH was so furious at them, yelling
cursing and informing them they were going to school so they could
learn something! Both of them have been told many times they have to
push on the door of the freezer to make sure they have shut it all the
way. Not only that they have also been told not to open the freezer.
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714&grpId=12789513&grpspId=1600081972&msgI
d=16036&stime=1154364995&nc1=3848538&nc2=2&nc3=3>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that it is acceptable to treat people we love like crap when they make
mistakes.
You also taught them that their feelings and sense of well being are worth
$200 to you and your husband. What a petty amount to loose your child's
trust over. It's a shame that your children aren't worth more than that to
you and it's also a shame that they know it.
-Dawn
One of the boys didn't shut the door on the big freezer all the way
yesterday, and ruined about $200 worth of food. Maybe more, I am
trying to salvage some of it. DH was so furious at them, yelling
cursing and informing them they were going to school so they could
learn something! Both of them have been told many times they have to
push on the door of the freezer to make sure they have shut it all the
way. Not only that they have also been told not to open the freezer.
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714&grpId=12789513&grpspId=1600081972&msgI
d=16036&stime=1154364995&nc1=3848538&nc2=2&nc3=3>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
elizabeth roberts
Sorry to hear that you've lost so much in food. I hope that you can replace it easily - I know something like that could set us way back.
I think the best thing you can do is calmly explain once again to the boys about the need to push the lid fully closed in the future so that this doesn't happen again. Let them help with trying to salvage anything, bagging up anything that can't be saved and then cleaning out the freezer before anything is readdef or brought in. If you can, have them go with you to shop for new stuff, but show them your usual budget and how this is setting you back (if it is) or coming out of savings or however you're handling it.
We've had the same situation happen, although at a time when the freezer wasn't completely stocked. I still had Sarah and Logan go through and clean out the freezer, help with moving everything that was alright into the small freezer (which was usually empty or just had ice cream and treats in it - because then they didn't NEED to go out into the big freezer for anything!). We haven't had a problem since then with them not ensuring the lid was fully closed although now that I've written that I think keeping the treats in the small freezer in the house is the main thing we've done that's helped.
Now if we could get them to remember to shut the refrigerator (the door is broken so it doesn't shut properly unless you force it shut)....
I hope that helps some!
Beth
Sing, Dance, Laugh...LOVE!
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think the best thing you can do is calmly explain once again to the boys about the need to push the lid fully closed in the future so that this doesn't happen again. Let them help with trying to salvage anything, bagging up anything that can't be saved and then cleaning out the freezer before anything is readdef or brought in. If you can, have them go with you to shop for new stuff, but show them your usual budget and how this is setting you back (if it is) or coming out of savings or however you're handling it.
We've had the same situation happen, although at a time when the freezer wasn't completely stocked. I still had Sarah and Logan go through and clean out the freezer, help with moving everything that was alright into the small freezer (which was usually empty or just had ice cream and treats in it - because then they didn't NEED to go out into the big freezer for anything!). We haven't had a problem since then with them not ensuring the lid was fully closed although now that I've written that I think keeping the treats in the small freezer in the house is the main thing we've done that's helped.
Now if we could get them to remember to shut the refrigerator (the door is broken so it doesn't shut properly unless you force it shut)....
I hope that helps some!
Beth
Sing, Dance, Laugh...LOVE!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
At 12:56 7/31/2006, Anon wrote:
to imagine someone saying all these things about you:
"disobedient behavior"
"[she] just [doesn't] care"
"[she] want[s] to do what they want to do!
"wilful destructive behavior"
Now, try to imagine that you're a kid (age unknown) who goofed up and
forgot to shut the freezer door, allowing food to spoil. Imagine how
you'd feel. You'd probably feel bad and angry with yourself. I know
I would. Now, imagine that your mom and/or dad comes along and goes
completely off on you, screaming and cursing. You might feel any or
all of these few things:
You might feel, "She's right, I'm stupid."
You might feel, "I can't do anything right, who cares anyway. Why
should I even try?"
You might feel, "I hate you!"
You might feel, "Good! I'm glad the food spoiled."
None of these things is a good way to feel.
Now, imagine if your mom or dad were sympathetic to you! Imagine
hearing their legitimate disappointment on the one hand that the food
was spoiled but at the same time recognizing how crummy *you* must be
feeling about having goofed up. Imagine if they gave you a way to
help right the wrong by helping them salvage the food, and then
imagine them asking you help come up with ways that they can help you
remember to shut the freezer door better.
Imagine the difference between someone you love seeing you as being
willfully destructive versus them seeing you as fallible but caring
and capable and recognizing the humanity in you and themselves. Can
you imagine how grateful you'd feel for their support of you, even
when you're feeling so badly that you allowed $200 worth of food to spoil?
The dynamic that has been set up between you and them is entirely up
to you and your husband, not them. It's all in the way that you
respond to them being kids. Kids goof up! People goof up! It's
what you do next that determines what they do next. It's a great big
game or a dance and you're the leader. If they're not listening to
you now, it's probably because you've given them the message long ago
that listening to you hurts. You can fix that, and they're always
giving you the opportunity to show them you can see them in a different way!
If you haven't yet, get a copy of "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen,
and Listen So Kids Will Talk." I don't buy everything they say, but
it'll certainly help you turn things around from where they are!
Marji (someone who remembers being seen in a bad light, and knows how
tough it can be to get over!)
. Maybe I should just give in and send them
Marji
<http://www.gaiawolf.org/>GaiaWolf
<http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GaiaWolf/>Join the GaiaWolf Mailing List
"The animals of this world exist for their own reasons. They were
not made for humans any more than blacks were made for whites or
women created for men."
~Alice Walker
_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>One of the boys didn't shut the door on the big freezer all the wayIf there is any way at all that you can try in your heart of hearts
>yesterday, and ruined about $200 worth of food. Maybe more, I am
>trying to salvage some of it. DH was so furious at them, yelling
>cursing and informing them they were going to school so they could
>learn something! Both of them have been told many times they have to
>push on the door of the freezer to make sure they have shut it all the
>way...
to imagine someone saying all these things about you:
"disobedient behavior"
"[she] just [doesn't] care"
"[she] want[s] to do what they want to do!
"wilful destructive behavior"
Now, try to imagine that you're a kid (age unknown) who goofed up and
forgot to shut the freezer door, allowing food to spoil. Imagine how
you'd feel. You'd probably feel bad and angry with yourself. I know
I would. Now, imagine that your mom and/or dad comes along and goes
completely off on you, screaming and cursing. You might feel any or
all of these few things:
You might feel, "She's right, I'm stupid."
You might feel, "I can't do anything right, who cares anyway. Why
should I even try?"
You might feel, "I hate you!"
You might feel, "Good! I'm glad the food spoiled."
None of these things is a good way to feel.
Now, imagine if your mom or dad were sympathetic to you! Imagine
hearing their legitimate disappointment on the one hand that the food
was spoiled but at the same time recognizing how crummy *you* must be
feeling about having goofed up. Imagine if they gave you a way to
help right the wrong by helping them salvage the food, and then
imagine them asking you help come up with ways that they can help you
remember to shut the freezer door better.
Imagine the difference between someone you love seeing you as being
willfully destructive versus them seeing you as fallible but caring
and capable and recognizing the humanity in you and themselves. Can
you imagine how grateful you'd feel for their support of you, even
when you're feeling so badly that you allowed $200 worth of food to spoil?
The dynamic that has been set up between you and them is entirely up
to you and your husband, not them. It's all in the way that you
respond to them being kids. Kids goof up! People goof up! It's
what you do next that determines what they do next. It's a great big
game or a dance and you're the leader. If they're not listening to
you now, it's probably because you've given them the message long ago
that listening to you hurts. You can fix that, and they're always
giving you the opportunity to show them you can see them in a different way!
If you haven't yet, get a copy of "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen,
and Listen So Kids Will Talk." I don't buy everything they say, but
it'll certainly help you turn things around from where they are!
Marji (someone who remembers being seen in a bad light, and knows how
tough it can be to get over!)
. Maybe I should just give in and send them
>to school! But that won't solve the behavior problems, it will just_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._
>cause more problems. Any
>ideas????
>
>
Marji
<http://www.gaiawolf.org/>GaiaWolf
<http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GaiaWolf/>Join the GaiaWolf Mailing List
"The animals of this world exist for their own reasons. They were
not made for humans any more than blacks were made for whites or
women created for men."
~Alice Walker
_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Manisha Kher
> From a member I think might like to remain anon forDo you (or dh) really think that they'll become better
> this one:
>
> One of the boys didn't shut the door on the big
> freezer all the way
> yesterday, and ruined about $200 worth of food.
> Maybe more, I am
> trying to salvage some of it. DH was so furious at
> them, yelling
> cursing and informing them they were going to school
> so they could
> learn something!
at closing the freezer door by going to school? Could
you involve them in salvaging the food? Could you
involve them in your budget and in deciding what needs
to be dropped because the money now needs to go for
groceries. I don't mean this in a punishment sort of
way, but the way you would deal with this if either
you or dh left the door open by mistake.
For several years we had an old refrigerator whose
door didn't close by simply letting go a couple inches
away. You really had to close it. At the same time, we
had many women going in and out of the house who used
our refrigerator for their lunch/snacks. I had told
all of them about the door and yet I had to check on
it myself and close it many time. Because I cared the
most the electric bill and the food in the
refrigerator. It just was not high on the other
women's priorities. And these were all grown women.
You didn't mention the age of your boys and how long
have you been homeschooling/unschooling. You talk
about them disbeying but don't mention any specifics.
What behaviour is it that needs to be changed? I think
you'll get more helpful replies if you give specific
examples.
Manisha
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-----Original Message-----
From: starsuncloud@...
One of the boys didn't shut the door on the big freezer all the way
yesterday, and ruined about $200 worth of food. Maybe more, I am
trying to salvage some of it. DH was so furious at them, yelling
cursing and informing them they were going to school so they could
learn something! Both of them have been told many times they have to
push on the door of the freezer to make sure they have shut it all the
way. Not only that they have also been told not to open the freezer.
-=-=-==-
I'm sorry you lost all in your freezer. Been there. Done that.
As to the situation:
What if you or your husband had been the culprit? Would *you* then
have to go to school to learn something? Who would yell and curse at
you? If they aren't allowed to even open the freezer, how should they
know that it must be shut all the way?
You really need to look at it from the point of view of two little
boys who are *ONLY* eight and five. Their goal wasn't to ruin $200
worth of food. It was to get ice or a Popsicle.
Accidents HAPPEN. Punishing for accidents makes people sneaky liars.
-=-=-=--
This happened yesterday after returning home from delgrosso amusement
park, where we went to get their baseball trophies, but did not stay
all afternoon to go on rides as planned due to their disobedient
behavior the night before. they were told that night that they would
not be able to go if they continued their behavior, and J even said,
ok! in the morning I said to DH, lets go and get the trophies and then
come home. So that's what we did. I did purchase tickets to go on
one ride. Jeffrey was very upset that we couldn't do anything else.
So much for not wanting to punish, eh?
-=-=-=-=-
What rule did they break the night before? How did it relate to the
amusement park? Why did you feel the need to punish at all?
They're REALLY little. Do you think they really understood your
arbitrary consequence? Why?
Where were you during this "disobedience" that "caused" the loss of
amusement park privilege? Why weren't you right here? Could it have
been caused by hunger? Exhaustion? Pain?
-=-=-=-
I had a conversation with them both about what it means when we say
Stop and Don't.
-=-=-=-
Do *you* quit when *they* say Stop or Don't? I'm sure they asked
repeatedly to stay at the amusement park. You refused to listen. What
do you think they learned from that?
--=-=-
They just don't care, they want to do what they want to do!
-=-=-=-
Yes. So do I, and so do you.
-=-=-=-
Yes I want them to be free and do what they want, as long as it does
not conflict with what they have been told!
-=-=-=-
If one is truly FREE, he doesn't *have* to do what he is told.
What if *I* told *you*: "You can do whatever you want as long as it's
what I say."
-=-=-=-
I am so tired of their wilful destructive behavior. Maybe I should
just give in and send them
to school! But that won't solve the behavior problems, it will just
cause more problems. Any
ideas????
-=-=-=-
They may feel safer in school. Home seems spiteful and unreasonable.
Have you ever looked at it from *their* perspective? They are really,
really little. They need *help* in navigating this path. You're so busy
throwing up roadblocks that they can't even SEE the road!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
From: starsuncloud@...
One of the boys didn't shut the door on the big freezer all the way
yesterday, and ruined about $200 worth of food. Maybe more, I am
trying to salvage some of it. DH was so furious at them, yelling
cursing and informing them they were going to school so they could
learn something! Both of them have been told many times they have to
push on the door of the freezer to make sure they have shut it all the
way. Not only that they have also been told not to open the freezer.
-=-=-==-
I'm sorry you lost all in your freezer. Been there. Done that.
As to the situation:
What if you or your husband had been the culprit? Would *you* then
have to go to school to learn something? Who would yell and curse at
you? If they aren't allowed to even open the freezer, how should they
know that it must be shut all the way?
You really need to look at it from the point of view of two little
boys who are *ONLY* eight and five. Their goal wasn't to ruin $200
worth of food. It was to get ice or a Popsicle.
Accidents HAPPEN. Punishing for accidents makes people sneaky liars.
-=-=-=--
This happened yesterday after returning home from delgrosso amusement
park, where we went to get their baseball trophies, but did not stay
all afternoon to go on rides as planned due to their disobedient
behavior the night before. they were told that night that they would
not be able to go if they continued their behavior, and J even said,
ok! in the morning I said to DH, lets go and get the trophies and then
come home. So that's what we did. I did purchase tickets to go on
one ride. Jeffrey was very upset that we couldn't do anything else.
So much for not wanting to punish, eh?
-=-=-=-=-
What rule did they break the night before? How did it relate to the
amusement park? Why did you feel the need to punish at all?
They're REALLY little. Do you think they really understood your
arbitrary consequence? Why?
Where were you during this "disobedience" that "caused" the loss of
amusement park privilege? Why weren't you right here? Could it have
been caused by hunger? Exhaustion? Pain?
-=-=-=-
I had a conversation with them both about what it means when we say
Stop and Don't.
-=-=-=-
Do *you* quit when *they* say Stop or Don't? I'm sure they asked
repeatedly to stay at the amusement park. You refused to listen. What
do you think they learned from that?
--=-=-
They just don't care, they want to do what they want to do!
-=-=-=-
Yes. So do I, and so do you.
-=-=-=-
Yes I want them to be free and do what they want, as long as it does
not conflict with what they have been told!
-=-=-=-
If one is truly FREE, he doesn't *have* to do what he is told.
What if *I* told *you*: "You can do whatever you want as long as it's
what I say."
-=-=-=-
I am so tired of their wilful destructive behavior. Maybe I should
just give in and send them
to school! But that won't solve the behavior problems, it will just
cause more problems. Any
ideas????
-=-=-=-
They may feel safer in school. Home seems spiteful and unreasonable.
Have you ever looked at it from *their* perspective? They are really,
really little. They need *help* in navigating this path. You're so busy
throwing up roadblocks that they can't even SEE the road!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"It's a small world...but a BIG life!" ~Aaron McGlohn. aged 6
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Ren Allen
"Imagine the difference between someone you love seeing you as being
willfully destructive versus them seeing you as fallible but caring
and capable and recognizing the humanity in you and themselves."
This is SO important in an unschooling family. We ALL make mistakes.
It's interesting that adults think it's ok to treat children a certain
way when an honest mistake happens, but it would be considered abuse
if they treated another adult that way.
If my dh screamed and cursed at me, I don't think I'd stay married to
him!! Children don't have the power to get away from their parents,
they don't truly have that freedom usually. So parents should try
really, really hard to give children the same respect they'd give
another adult...while understanding that they ARE children and are
going to make mistakes like that.
When we lived in Battleground WA, I canned and froze food all summer.
We had a huge, old house with a full size fridge and freezer in the
basement. One summer, after I had spent two DAYS shucking, blanching
and freezing corn from the garden. Talk about HOURS of work! I also
had freezer jam I'd made, Halibut and salmon I caught in Alaska and a
bunch of other food in there. The door got left open all night after
the boys got a popsicle. Talk about heartwrenching.
Those little boys (7 and 3 at the time I believe) are now 16 and
12...the food is long forgotten. It's amazing how we can get upset at
something that seems like a really big deal at the time (and yes, it
hurts to lose $200 worth of food) but it will not be important down
the road. What IS of huge importance, is your relationship with them.
Money comes and goes, food pretty much goes!:) Your children are
hopefully here to stay and they need parents that create a loving,
nurturing and supportive environment for them. Threats, yelling,
cursing and anger do not support them as they grow, it only causes
them to lose trust in their parents, themselves and their world.
Not the best environment for joyful unschooling to take place.
I suggest viewing them as perfect, beautiful human beings that are
learning and growing. Obedience is not an ideal trait for an
unschooler in my opinion. Choosing to obey a directive because it
makes sense is one thing, blind obedience is what you're asking for
though and that isn't honoring the child or their own intelligence.
Work WITH them, not against them. They are very little boys and what
you're doing to them today, is building a relationship with two
teenagers and men. Treat them as the men they are going to become (as
far as respect) while letting them be the small people they ARE.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
willfully destructive versus them seeing you as fallible but caring
and capable and recognizing the humanity in you and themselves."
This is SO important in an unschooling family. We ALL make mistakes.
It's interesting that adults think it's ok to treat children a certain
way when an honest mistake happens, but it would be considered abuse
if they treated another adult that way.
If my dh screamed and cursed at me, I don't think I'd stay married to
him!! Children don't have the power to get away from their parents,
they don't truly have that freedom usually. So parents should try
really, really hard to give children the same respect they'd give
another adult...while understanding that they ARE children and are
going to make mistakes like that.
When we lived in Battleground WA, I canned and froze food all summer.
We had a huge, old house with a full size fridge and freezer in the
basement. One summer, after I had spent two DAYS shucking, blanching
and freezing corn from the garden. Talk about HOURS of work! I also
had freezer jam I'd made, Halibut and salmon I caught in Alaska and a
bunch of other food in there. The door got left open all night after
the boys got a popsicle. Talk about heartwrenching.
Those little boys (7 and 3 at the time I believe) are now 16 and
12...the food is long forgotten. It's amazing how we can get upset at
something that seems like a really big deal at the time (and yes, it
hurts to lose $200 worth of food) but it will not be important down
the road. What IS of huge importance, is your relationship with them.
Money comes and goes, food pretty much goes!:) Your children are
hopefully here to stay and they need parents that create a loving,
nurturing and supportive environment for them. Threats, yelling,
cursing and anger do not support them as they grow, it only causes
them to lose trust in their parents, themselves and their world.
Not the best environment for joyful unschooling to take place.
I suggest viewing them as perfect, beautiful human beings that are
learning and growing. Obedience is not an ideal trait for an
unschooler in my opinion. Choosing to obey a directive because it
makes sense is one thing, blind obedience is what you're asking for
though and that isn't honoring the child or their own intelligence.
Work WITH them, not against them. They are very little boys and what
you're doing to them today, is building a relationship with two
teenagers and men. Treat them as the men they are going to become (as
far as respect) while letting them be the small people they ARE.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Michelle
I'm seeing a lot of posts here that are suggesting sensitivity and
forgiveness as the way to deal with this, and if this was a matter of the
boys opening the freezer with permission and not closing it completely
(perhaps they were helping to put things away) then I agree. Reminding them
that they really need to be careful when closing the door and having them
help with the clean-up while still treating them respectfully would be the
best way to deal with this.
I must say though, that this is not the way that I read the original email.
It sounded to me as if the boys were purposefully being disobedient. They
were told not to touch the freezer. They did so anyway (perhaps because they
were angry about the trip to get the trophies?) and left the door open.
Perhaps that part was completely an accident, but regardless---if the
'accident' happened as a result of purposeful disobedience it should have
consequences.
Sending them to school is not a consequence; that just seems a bit silly to
me. It was said in anger (none of us are the perfect parents that we aspire
to be) and should be forgotten.
Michelle in San Antonio
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
forgiveness as the way to deal with this, and if this was a matter of the
boys opening the freezer with permission and not closing it completely
(perhaps they were helping to put things away) then I agree. Reminding them
that they really need to be careful when closing the door and having them
help with the clean-up while still treating them respectfully would be the
best way to deal with this.
I must say though, that this is not the way that I read the original email.
It sounded to me as if the boys were purposefully being disobedient. They
were told not to touch the freezer. They did so anyway (perhaps because they
were angry about the trip to get the trophies?) and left the door open.
Perhaps that part was completely an accident, but regardless---if the
'accident' happened as a result of purposeful disobedience it should have
consequences.
Sending them to school is not a consequence; that just seems a bit silly to
me. It was said in anger (none of us are the perfect parents that we aspire
to be) and should be forgotten.
Michelle in San Antonio
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
that is so important.
--Deb
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>Oooh I really really like this - it says clearly and simply something
>Treat them as the men they are going to become (as
> far as respect) while letting them be the small people they ARE.
>
that is so important.
--Deb
Michelle/Melbrigða
On 7/31/06, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote for an anonymous person:
over $200 in food.
door open and caused $200 worth of food to be lost? Would he scream
and yell at himself or you? Would he punish you? What about himself?
I doubt that your very young children do either. And why is there
need of a punishment? Will a punishment help them remember to close
the freezer? No. It will help them remember that you don't trust
them and that you would prefer them to feel miserable at making
mistakes, thus feel miserable about themselves. They probably do
understand that this accident was their fault, but that is all it was.
An accident. I doubt that your children deliberately went and left
the freezer door open to cause all that food to go to waste. I'm sure
that they would have prefered to have eaten the food rather than let
it go to waste.
to do? What is it that they do that you feel needs to be stopped and
that they can't do? I'm wondering if more mindful parenting could
have prevented this accident. Instead of saying, "You many NEVER go
into the freezer again" you could just as easily say, "When you need
something from the freezer, let me know and I will help you since that
door has problems shutting all the way." Or be aware of when they
have been in the freezer. Check it from time to time to make sure it
is closed yourself. Before you leave the house or go to bed. Make it
part of your routine. Is there something that is causing it to keep
from closing properly? A broken hinge, too much ice, overstuffed
freezer, unlevel freezer. (BTW, a friend of mine who used to sell
kitchen appliances told me that refrigerators are meant to close on
their own if they are level, if your fridge doesn't close on it's own
then it isn't level. Same for stand up freezers.)
us not to do this, but let's see how much damage we can cause?"
Children don't think like that. IN fact few people truly think like
that. Sometimes things just happen like freezer doors being left
open. BTW, did you know that you can purchase a device that goes on
your freezer or refrigerator door that sends out an beep or some such
noise to let you know that the freezer door is open? They cost around
$10 and it would be an audible reminder to your boys (and you and
your husband) that the door is still open.
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
> One of the boys didn't shut the door on the big freezer all the wayI"m sorry that so much trust was lost between you and your children
> yesterday, and ruined about $200 worth of food. Maybe more, I am
> trying to salvage some of it.
over $200 in food.
>DH was so furious at them, yellingWhat would your husand's reaction be if YOU or HE had left the freezer
> cursing and informing them they were going to school so they could
> learn something! Both of them have been told many times they have to
> push on the door of the freezer to make sure they have shut it all the
> way. Not only that they have also been told not to open the freezer.
door open and caused $200 worth of food to be lost? Would he scream
and yell at himself or you? Would he punish you? What about himself?
>I don't understand how an amusement park and freezer are related. And
> This happened yesterday after returning home from delgrosso amusement
> park, where we went to get their baseball trophies, but did not stay
> all afternoon to go on rides as planned due to their disobedient
> behavior the night before.
I doubt that your very young children do either. And why is there
need of a punishment? Will a punishment help them remember to close
the freezer? No. It will help them remember that you don't trust
them and that you would prefer them to feel miserable at making
mistakes, thus feel miserable about themselves. They probably do
understand that this accident was their fault, but that is all it was.
An accident. I doubt that your children deliberately went and left
the freezer door open to cause all that food to go to waste. I'm sure
that they would have prefered to have eaten the food rather than let
it go to waste.
> I had aIs that so wrong? Is it so wrong to want to do things that you want
> conversation with them both about what it means when we say Stop and
> Don't. They just don't care, they want to do what they want to do!
to do? What is it that they do that you feel needs to be stopped and
that they can't do? I'm wondering if more mindful parenting could
have prevented this accident. Instead of saying, "You many NEVER go
into the freezer again" you could just as easily say, "When you need
something from the freezer, let me know and I will help you since that
door has problems shutting all the way." Or be aware of when they
have been in the freezer. Check it from time to time to make sure it
is closed yourself. Before you leave the house or go to bed. Make it
part of your routine. Is there something that is causing it to keep
from closing properly? A broken hinge, too much ice, overstuffed
freezer, unlevel freezer. (BTW, a friend of mine who used to sell
kitchen appliances told me that refrigerators are meant to close on
their own if they are level, if your fridge doesn't close on it's own
then it isn't level. Same for stand up freezers.)
> Yes I want them to be free and do what they want, as long as it doesDo you really think that they say to themselves, "Hey, I know mom told
> not conflict with what they have been told! I am so tired of their
> wilful destructive behavior.
us not to do this, but let's see how much damage we can cause?"
Children don't think like that. IN fact few people truly think like
that. Sometimes things just happen like freezer doors being left
open. BTW, did you know that you can purchase a device that goes on
your freezer or refrigerator door that sends out an beep or some such
noise to let you know that the freezer door is open? They cost around
$10 and it would be an audible reminder to your boys (and you and
your husband) that the door is still open.
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
Ren Allen
"Oooh I really really like this - it says clearly and simply something
that is so important."
A few years ago I started picturing them as adults remembering this
very moment with me. I imagined them as grown men (or women as the
case may be), remembering their childhood and how I hoped they'd feel
about our interactions and their parents.
I didn't want them to grow up with the kind of visions I have of my
Mom ranting all the time when she got pissed (though I've been known
to rant on occasion!).
Seeing them as grown men/women, really helped me treat them
differently. That can be a useful tool for creating change in
relationships. I'm not acting out on a 5 year old, I'm acting out on
JALEN, who I assume will one day be a man that is larger and stronger
than me.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
that is so important."
A few years ago I started picturing them as adults remembering this
very moment with me. I imagined them as grown men (or women as the
case may be), remembering their childhood and how I hoped they'd feel
about our interactions and their parents.
I didn't want them to grow up with the kind of visions I have of my
Mom ranting all the time when she got pissed (though I've been known
to rant on occasion!).
Seeing them as grown men/women, really helped me treat them
differently. That can be a useful tool for creating change in
relationships. I'm not acting out on a 5 year old, I'm acting out on
JALEN, who I assume will one day be a man that is larger and stronger
than me.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
"Perhaps that part was completely an accident, but regardless---if the
'accident' happened as a result of purposeful disobedience it should have
consequences."
In other words they should be punished.
This list is here to help people move AWAY from punishment into
non-adversarial relationships. So no, I don't believe there should be
"consequences" other than the very natural ones of losing food.
What would the "consequence" be if your husband did something? What if
my dh punished me for not cleaning the kitchen or breaking something?
How is it that healthy relationships for adults don't involve
punishment of any kind, but it's alright for children?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
'accident' happened as a result of purposeful disobedience it should have
consequences."
In other words they should be punished.
This list is here to help people move AWAY from punishment into
non-adversarial relationships. So no, I don't believe there should be
"consequences" other than the very natural ones of losing food.
What would the "consequence" be if your husband did something? What if
my dh punished me for not cleaning the kitchen or breaking something?
How is it that healthy relationships for adults don't involve
punishment of any kind, but it's alright for children?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
marji
At 15:05 7/31/2006, you wrote:
where the kids would *want* to purposefully disobey!? This ain't
about the freezer door or $200 bucks worth of food! This sounds a
lot like an us-versus-them scene, and unschooling cannot work in that
environment! If the grown-up folks are coming off as authoritarian
and creating situations for the kids to rebel against, how can that
foster the kind of trust between the parents and the kids that is
absolutely crucial for unschooling to work?
If, as you think, this was done as a result of "purposeful
disobedience," the consequences are the parents' to pay, and
"purposeful disobedience" is actually the consequence of a lack of
trust and respect.
~Marji
P.S. Whenever I have told my son not to "touch" something, the first
thing he would do is hold up his pointer finger and touch the thing
while looking at me with a little smile on his face. This shows me
what a dolt I'm being and that he deserves better than that! Then,
he gives me the chance to amend my goofy statement to why I'd like
him (or need him) to leave that thing alone for now. If my
explanation passes muster, he's more than happy to comply. (He's
done this since he was very little; he would probably do it now, but
I have long since learned not to say insulting things like that to
him.) This is as it should be, and I am ever grateful for my
intelligent, patient, funny, good-natured son!!!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>It sounded to me as if the boys were purposefully being disobedient. TheyIn my mind, though, I wonder why the relationship would be set up
>were told not to touch the freezer. They did so anyway (perhaps because they
>were angry about the trip to get the trophies?) and left the door open.
>Perhaps that part was completely an accident, but regardless---if the
>'accident' happened as a result of purposeful disobedience it should have
>consequences.
where the kids would *want* to purposefully disobey!? This ain't
about the freezer door or $200 bucks worth of food! This sounds a
lot like an us-versus-them scene, and unschooling cannot work in that
environment! If the grown-up folks are coming off as authoritarian
and creating situations for the kids to rebel against, how can that
foster the kind of trust between the parents and the kids that is
absolutely crucial for unschooling to work?
If, as you think, this was done as a result of "purposeful
disobedience," the consequences are the parents' to pay, and
"purposeful disobedience" is actually the consequence of a lack of
trust and respect.
~Marji
P.S. Whenever I have told my son not to "touch" something, the first
thing he would do is hold up his pointer finger and touch the thing
while looking at me with a little smile on his face. This shows me
what a dolt I'm being and that he deserves better than that! Then,
he gives me the chance to amend my goofy statement to why I'd like
him (or need him) to leave that thing alone for now. If my
explanation passes muster, he's more than happy to comply. (He's
done this since he was very little; he would probably do it now, but
I have long since learned not to say insulting things like that to
him.) This is as it should be, and I am ever grateful for my
intelligent, patient, funny, good-natured son!!!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/message/16036;_ylc=X3oDMTJzYXIzdGhrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEyNzg5NTEzBGdycHNwSWQDMTYwMDA4MTk3MgRtc2dJZAM
xNjAzNgRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMTU0MzczNDg3)
Why not just fix the freezer door so it shuts like it's made to? It's free.
Adjust the front feet of the fridge.
Better yet show the kids so they know when they have kids and then take the
back to the park and have some fun.
Laura
unschoolingmaine.com
(http://www.jcbsong.co.uk/jcbvideo.asp)
‘It's never enough to just tell people about some new insight. Rather, you
have to get them to experience it a way that evokes its power and possibility.
Instead of pouring knowledge into people's heads, you need to help them grind
anew set of eyeglasses so they can see the world in a new way.’
— John Seely Brown - US researcher/author (Xerox)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
xNjAzNgRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMTU0MzczNDg3)
Why not just fix the freezer door so it shuts like it's made to? It's free.
Adjust the front feet of the fridge.
Better yet show the kids so they know when they have kids and then take the
back to the park and have some fun.
Laura
unschoolingmaine.com
(http://www.jcbsong.co.uk/jcbvideo.asp)
‘It's never enough to just tell people about some new insight. Rather, you
have to get them to experience it a way that evokes its power and possibility.
Instead of pouring knowledge into people's heads, you need to help them grind
anew set of eyeglasses so they can see the world in a new way.’
— John Seely Brown - US researcher/author (Xerox)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 31, 2006, at 12:05 PM, Michelle wrote:
hold it in their heads that closing the freezer door was important.
That kind of thing is just totally normal - their brains are so
young, they don't have the cognitive capability that would allow them
to hold these abstract ideas in their heads - freezer door doesn't
shut tight, stuff in the freezer has to stay cold to stay good, it
would cost money to replace stuff in freezer, we don't have an
infinite supply of money, we have to work to earn money, if we
replace things in freezer then we have to give up something else, and
so on. Those are very abstract thoughts that adults process instantly
and effortlessly, but the brains of kids under 12 or so aren't
developed in the areas that are needed for that kind of thinking.
The solution has to be concrete, to match the kids thinking levels -
it might be to find a way to fix the freezer so it closes tightly by
itself or to get a little alarm for it for when the door is open -
ask the kids, they'll have lots of ideas.
It might help parents to think about how they want their children to
treat THEM, when they're old and feeble and make mistakes. How do
they want their kids to treat them when THEY are old and they do
things like leave the freezer door open. Lots of us WILL be like that
- it is very often part of getting old. I'm hoping my children will
be tender and kind to me, when I'm like that. I hope they won't be
harsh and disapproving and I certainly hope they won't consider
punishing me
Could be that they were being disobedient on purpose. That can happen
when kids and parents have such a severely adversarial relationship
that the children actually start to see the parents as "the enemy."
IF that is true, then the parents really need even more help figuring
out how to create a non-adversarial relationship with their children.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I must say though, that this is not the way that I read theCould be that they were just being little kids and not being able to
> original email.
> It sounded to me as if the boys were purposefully being disobedient.
hold it in their heads that closing the freezer door was important.
That kind of thing is just totally normal - their brains are so
young, they don't have the cognitive capability that would allow them
to hold these abstract ideas in their heads - freezer door doesn't
shut tight, stuff in the freezer has to stay cold to stay good, it
would cost money to replace stuff in freezer, we don't have an
infinite supply of money, we have to work to earn money, if we
replace things in freezer then we have to give up something else, and
so on. Those are very abstract thoughts that adults process instantly
and effortlessly, but the brains of kids under 12 or so aren't
developed in the areas that are needed for that kind of thinking.
The solution has to be concrete, to match the kids thinking levels -
it might be to find a way to fix the freezer so it closes tightly by
itself or to get a little alarm for it for when the door is open -
ask the kids, they'll have lots of ideas.
It might help parents to think about how they want their children to
treat THEM, when they're old and feeble and make mistakes. How do
they want their kids to treat them when THEY are old and they do
things like leave the freezer door open. Lots of us WILL be like that
- it is very often part of getting old. I'm hoping my children will
be tender and kind to me, when I'm like that. I hope they won't be
harsh and disapproving and I certainly hope they won't consider
punishing me
Could be that they were being disobedient on purpose. That can happen
when kids and parents have such a severely adversarial relationship
that the children actually start to see the parents as "the enemy."
IF that is true, then the parents really need even more help figuring
out how to create a non-adversarial relationship with their children.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lesa
Ok, so I've read all the responses to this initial post from the anon
member... I want to hear a response back from the anon member on what
she thinks of what everyone said.
What have you planned to do to fix the situation in your home? Why
are your children the "bad guys"? Are you willing to change?
I really want to know if you reread what you posted to the group to
see just how harsh you and your DH are being with your boys... do you
see how you are the one's causing the conflict? Do you see that you
as adults are totally responsible for how you react to your children?
I can say that we all aren't perfect but we are actively involved in
making our lives full of joy and living unschooling to the fullest.
Right now your household is NOT living unschooling... but it can be...
but first you have to acknowledge the issues... and the issues are NOT
your children... the issues are with you and your DH.
Lesa
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
member... I want to hear a response back from the anon member on what
she thinks of what everyone said.
What have you planned to do to fix the situation in your home? Why
are your children the "bad guys"? Are you willing to change?
I really want to know if you reread what you posted to the group to
see just how harsh you and your DH are being with your boys... do you
see how you are the one's causing the conflict? Do you see that you
as adults are totally responsible for how you react to your children?
I can say that we all aren't perfect but we are actively involved in
making our lives full of joy and living unschooling to the fullest.
Right now your household is NOT living unschooling... but it can be...
but first you have to acknowledge the issues... and the issues are NOT
your children... the issues are with you and your DH.
Lesa
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> From a member I think might like to remain anon for this one:
>
> One of the boys didn't shut the door on the big freezer all the way
> yesterday, and ruined about $200 worth of food. Maybe more, I am
> trying to salvage some of it. DH was so furious at them, yelling
> cursing and informing them they were going to school so they could
> learn something! Both of them have been told many times they have to
> push on the door of the freezer to make sure they have shut it all the
> way. Not only that they have also been told not to open the freezer.
>
> This happened yesterday after returning home from delgrosso amusement
> park, where we went to get their baseball trophies, but did not stay
> all afternoon to go on rides as planned due to their disobedient
> behavior the night before. they were told that night that they would
> not be able to go if they continued their behavior, and J even said,
> ok! in the morning I said to DH, lets go and get the trophies and then
> come home. So that's what we did. I did purchase tickets to go on
> one ride. Jeffrey was very upset that we couldn't do anything else.
> So much for not wanting to punish, eh?
> I had a
> conversation with them both about what it means when we say Stop and
> Don't. They just don't care, they want to do what they want to do!
> Yes I want them to be free and do what they want, as long as it does
> not conflict with what they have been told! I am so tired of their
> wilful destructive behavior. Maybe I should just give in and send them
> to school! But that won't solve the behavior problems, it will just
> cause more problems. Any
> ideas????
>
Deb
Lesa - the OP has replied (anonymously via our lovely moderator) and
she recognizes the problem is with her husband's abusive behavior
(toward her and the kids). If you check through the replies, there
will be some that say something like "More from OP" or something
somewhere near the top of the post or in the subject.
--Deb
she recognizes the problem is with her husband's abusive behavior
(toward her and the kids). If you check through the replies, there
will be some that say something like "More from OP" or something
somewhere near the top of the post or in the subject.
--Deb
Cheryl
>Michelle:(BTW, a friend of mine who used to sell
kitchen appliances told me that refrigerators are meant to close on
their own if they are level, if your fridge doesn't close on it's own
then it isn't level. Same for stand up freezers.)
>BTW, did you know that you can purchase a device that goes onyour freezer or refrigerator door that sends out an beep or some such
noise to let you know that the freezer door is open? They cost around
$10 and it would be an audible reminder to your boys (and you and
>your husband) that the door is still open.***
Ugh I need this device. At our house, *I'm* the one who keeps leaving that
thing open. My 3.75 yr old sometimes will remind me to shut it, lol. I
suppose I'll hold off on that $10 device and try using a sliver of wood at
the front of the fridge, first, to cause it to shut on it's own, better.
Thanks for the great tips...
Cheryl
"Keep knocking and the joy inside will eventually open a window and look to
see who's there."
- Jalal Al-Din Rumi, a 13th century Sufi poet & mystic
Lesa
Thanks Deb... with the subject (I noticed it somehow got onto tattoos)
going in different directions from it's initial topic, I must have
missed it.
Lesa
going in different directions from it's initial topic, I must have
missed it.
Lesa
--- In [email protected], "Deb" <soggyboysmom@...> wrote:
>
> Lesa - the OP has replied (anonymously via our lovely moderator) and
> she recognizes the problem is with her husband's abusive behavior
> (toward her and the kids). If you check through the replies, there
> will be some that say something like "More from OP" or something
> somewhere near the top of the post or in the subject.
>
> --Deb
>