Ren Allen

I am bringing this post to the list under my name, though none of this
is my writing. It's a message I rejected, in order to allow the member
that posted them, a chance to read the strong responses it's sure to
evoke, without feeling attacked personally.

I have a lot to say about this, but I'm posting it first for everyone
else to read:

Posted by anon member:

I know that there are probably people who disagree with me, but I
can speak from my experience.

I remember being a child who had no limitations at all. I crossed
every line I could think of to get my parents to notice me and to
protect me from myself. I was pregnant at 17 and scared to death.
That didn't work either. After trying miserably for YEARS to get
somone to tell me how to get through life, at 23 I started to figure
some things out and really I am so far behind the curve. No
education, no chance of employment for more than minimum wage. I
never had to do anything. And I never learned to do it until I was
grown and really struggle a lot to learn it.

For me, the times I am happiest is when I excercise self-discipline.
It took me forever to learn any form of it and I have no follow
through most of the time. I have bounced from one thing to another,
as soon as it is too challenging, or goes to slow, I move on. Except
with my children whom I do follow through with.

There are children who do VERY well with no pressure. There are also
some who NEED and WANT structure. It's not torture to make a child
go to bed at a certain time. It's not torture to limit what they
eat. It does not mean that you are less of a mother because you
provide a structured enviornment. Maybe people who believe otherwise
will say that it isn't "unschooling" in its purest form, but who
really cares what other people think or if you fit into their box.

You have to define what works for each child and ultimatley for your
family. I demand respect from my children because I deserve respect
from them. I see other parents who dont' demand respect from their
children and their children, scream, bite, kick, pull hair, all at
their mother. Again, not all children react this way and some learn
respect different ways. YOu know your child.

I don't spank, but I really do mean what I say.
My children would not treat me with disdain or get away with
behaviour like that.

I am also a human being and deserving of happiness also. And that
means we all have to learn to respect one another and follow rules
that make life manageble to everyone in the house.

I do my best to give them space, watch them learn, hear what they
have to say, and do what we believe is best for them.

If you think what you are doing now is working and is in the best
interest of your family, then I would absolutely support you.

I am just suggesting that if its not working maybe trying something
new would bring about different results. Maybe he is acting out to
see if you care enough or are strong enough to stand up to him. To
me he sounds angry.

Your son doesn't know what to expect. Sometimes he misbehaves and
you say nothing or just remind him. Sometimes he gets yelled at. It
all depends on how short your wire is that day. Sounds like the
consequesnes for his misbehaviour are that he gets yelled at and
threatened. So he is getting consequences. Why not try setting
consequences BEFORE you loose your cool. He gets them anyway. And
change the consequences. Maybe try making him clean up his own mess.
You know your child and what will get through to him. It might take
a while, but consistency works.

Be careful that chaos isn't equated with freedom. The two can be
very different and bring about very different results.

Michelle/Melbrigða

An anonymous member wrote:
> I remember being a child who had no limitations at all. I crossed
> every line I could think of to get my parents to notice me and to
> protect me from myself. I was pregnant at 17 and scared to death.
> That didn't work either.

Oh boy. It sounds like while you feel you had no limitations, you
also were lacking in mindful parenting. This is the only portion of
your post that I saved because I think that this is something that you
really need to consider in comparing your childhood to that of an
unschooled childhood. My children have very few limitations. I say
very few because I do ask them to tell me where they are going and
when they will be back and to carry their cell phone with them and
that I know who they are with - these are all things a mindful parent
does.

We repeat this mantra often on this list "Unschooling is not
unparenting." Children who do not have forced bedtimes, controlled
food, have the freedom to pursue their passions *and* have *mindful
participating* parents will find their self-control. On their own
with you there to help them if they are stumbling.

An example: My son Keon (8yo) has a difficult time distinguishing
things such as being tired, confused, overworked, etc. He will work
on a video game for 12+ hours some days and just get into fits because
he can't beat this "boss" or is stuck trying to figure out where some
key is. He will get angry to the point where he throws things or
yells or cries. At first this behaviour upset me, but then I realized
this was how he worked things out but at the same time he *needed* ME
to help him realize that he needs to take breaks and come back more
refreshed. I got this message loud and clear when I started sitting
in the same room watching him play the games. Watching his life.
Being aware of his needs. I help he by suggesting things like, "Wow,
this is really difficult. It's making me dizzy. I was thinking of
going and getting a cup of ice cream and sitting on the front step.
Care to join me?" or "You seem very frustrated with this boss. He
must be a really tough cookie. Why don't we go take a walk around in
the garden and talk about what is so tough about this boss? I bet
when you come in you can get past him."

Part of self discipline is learning about what your body needs and
meeting those needs. It's not about picking up your room, eating all
your veggies, doing a task list of chores, toeing the line, or having
to say yes ma'am and no sir. And children will learn to respect other
people (not just their parents) when they are met with respect and
have parents who are interested in their lives. Were your parents
interested in your life? It sounds like not if you went to such
extremes as getting pregnant at a young age. I"m sure there were
other incidents in your life where you were screaming LOOK AT ME
through your actions but not getting the *respect* that you were
needing. The attention you deserved.

I'm sure there will be others who have been living joyful unschooled
lives longer than I have who will chime in. Your children will not
turn out like you if you don't act like your parents. BTW, Keon today
was battling Hades (Lord of the Dead, thank you very much) and having
a fit. I was reading a book in another room and he came to me and
sighed. I asked, "Tough day?" He said, "Hades is really making me
angry, so I thought I would take a break and see if that would help."
Now his break was only the time it took him to walk down the hall,
sigh at me and walk back. Maybe that was all he needed right now, but
he is starting to recognize those things and act on them. I don't
want to think what he would be like if I didn't take the time to be
mindful of his needs, wants and dreams.

--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

get my parents to notice me
*************
To me this was the key portion of this post.
VASTLY different than mindful parenting. Huge, wide, oceans apart.
Being ignored is not what we are doing or advocating here. It is the opposite.
AWARENESS is crucial.
As the poster went on to write the ideas supporting bedtimes, food restrictions et al, due to having a "no limitations" childhood, this phrase kept popping up in my head and coloring everything that was said.
Ignoring is not radical unschooling.
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 17, 2006, at 7:23 PM, Ren Allen wrote:

> I remember being a child who had no limitations at all. I crossed
> every line I could think of to get my parents to notice me and to
> protect me from myself.

What you experienced was neglect.

What people here will help others with is being with our children.
Being their partners in life. Walking along next to them as they
freely explore. We're there always as a resource: to ask advice of
and to jump in when they're about to step off a cliff they don't
realize is there.

> After trying miserably for YEARS to get
> somone to tell me how to get through life

An unschooling child doesn't need to try to get her parents to tell
her. The help is always there. Unschooling and mindful parenting
means being with your children.

> I started to figure
> some things out and really I am so far behind the curve. No
> education, no chance of employment for more than minimum wage. I
> never had to do anything. And I never learned to do it until I was
> grown and really struggle a lot to learn it.

It's very easy to look at those who are ahead and feel they have an
advantage that we wish we already have. And then to resent that we
weren't given that advantage.

Holding onto those feelings leads to unhappiness and frustration.

No one has every advantage. Yes, some people *will* need to work
harder to get where they want to go in life. Some people barely had
to work to get As. Some people worked hard to get Cs. Life isn't
fair. But dwelling on the unfairness doesn't make it fair. It doesn't
move us closer to our goal. All it does is add a layer of sadness to
not being where we would like to be.

It helps lots to look at what you have, than to look at what you
don't have. People arrive in America with little money without being
able to speak the language and they make successes of themselves not
by wishing they had what they don't but by setting their sites on
what they want and going after it.

I'm not saying it's easy. The path of regret and despair is easy but
it doesn't lead to happiness. The path of putting the past behind and
looking forward is *hard*, sometimes *very* hard, but it does lead to
happiness. As long as you are clear on what you want and why you want
it.

> For me, the times I am happiest is when I excercise self-discipline.

It will help to see how that connects to your childhood, though,
rather than being universally true for everyone. You perhaps equate
limits -- self imposed or parent imposed -- with loving attention.
Unschoolers offer loving attention in other ways: Real attention:
listening, being aware, doing things with their child, doing things
that will bring a smile to a child's face.

> It took me forever to learn any form of it and I have no follow
> through most of the time.
> I have bounced from one thing to another,
> as soon as it is too challenging, or goes to slow, I move on.

There may be some depression involved. There is certainly some damage
from your childhood that you're holding onto. Most of us *do* have
baggage from childhood, lots of it from school :-/ And it's amazing
the amount of time it takes to root it out. Mostly because we don't
even realize we have these messages in our heads that we assume are
true that turn out to not be true.

> There are children who do VERY well with no pressure.

Some people need *encouragement* to get through difficult parts of
something they want to do. The encouragement that will work best will
be different for each person. It totally depends on personality.

That's something we can learn from our children: how much and what
form of encouragement to give them.

I think, though, that if we assume a child needs pushed, that they
won't build up the confidence that they can push themselves. But it
can be just as bad to completely step away and not offer anything, to
let the child go it alone. No one advocates that. People on the list
advocate listening to children and helping them.

> There are also
> some who NEED and WANT structure.

There are children who feel comfortable knowing what the day holds.
They don't deal well with changes in plan. That doesn't mean they
want someone else to structure their life for them and make them
stick to it.

There's a difference between (externally imposed or enforced)
structure and routine. There's a difference between (externally
imposed or enforced) structure and creating a plan to accomplish a
large task.

Neither routines or plans require a parent to structure a child's
day. We advocate helping them: help them figure out what they want,
help them figure out a way to get it.

> It's not torture to make a childgo to bed at a certain time.

It can be for the child. The archives of Yahoo groups are a lot
easier to search now and you can pull up sad stories adults tell of
being made to go to bed when they weren't sleepy.

On the other hand, helping a child learn to listen to their bodies,
can help them go to bed when they're tired.

No one advocates removing bedtimes and letting little kids put
themselves to bed. People here will help others find ways to help
their kids transition to sleep, though, without imposing a specific,
by the clock time when kids need to be in bed.

> It's not torture to limit what they eat.

Again, it can be for the child. There are even more horror stories of
adults who had parents who controlled what they eat.

If you went out for a meal with a friend who was on an unusual diet,
would you want her to impose limits on what you could order? Many
people will say a friend is not a parent who is trying to help the
child make better choices. And yet the feelings are the same
*regardless* of the relationship. A child doesn't automatically like
having choices taken away from them just because it's being done by
a parent. There are other ways. People can help with ideas if there's
a specific problem.

> It does not mean that you are less of a mother because you
> provide a structured enviornment.

It doesn't help to grade people with grades as they do in school. And
it doesn't help to grade people -- less than, more than -- on how
well they parent.

But some *ideas* will help people unschool. Some *ideas* will make it
harder to unschool. Some *ideas* will help someone move towards a
goal and some will make it more difficult.

If people personally identify with the choices they've made, it makes
it lots harder to let go of ideas and look at the benefits (and
drawbacks) of new ideas because they don't want to risk feeling bad
or wrong.

It isn't that conventional parenting doesn't "work". It's that the
goals are different than mindful parenting. The goals of conventional
parenting are to mold a child into what the parent believes is the
right way to be. Most people we know have been parenting
conventionally some have turned out lousy, some have turned out
great, most have some damage but they've found ways to overcome or
cope. Conventional parenting "works" to some extent.

But there are side effects and compromises to conventional parenting
that must be compensated for. Conventional parenting is, at its
heart, an adversarial relationship. It's about changing our children
in certain ways to be how we want them to be. So much of conventional
parenting whittles away at our relationship with our children. To
counteract that, parents need to do even more to rebuild the
relationship.

The primary focus of mindful parenting is the relationship we have
with our child. Mindful parenting is about helping a child, being
their partner, trusting that children want to be kind and helping
them do that. It isn't ignoring a child's mistakes. It's about
helping them figure out better ways to get what they want.

> Maybe people who believe otherwise
> will say that it isn't "unschooling" in its purest form, but who
> really cares what other people think or if you fit into their box.

No one should be judging the worth of people here. But we do discuss
the worth of ideas on how well they will help someone unschool and
how much they will hinder.

Conventional parenting makes unschooling more difficult. When we tell
children through our actions that we trust them to learn math but
don't trust that they want to be kind, don't trust that they want to
be safe, don't trust that they have the abilities to learn how to
listen to their bodies, we're sending a double and confusion message.

So it doesn't make any difference what people here think of a person.
What *does* matter is what our children think of us. It helps to see
what we do and how we treat them as a potential memory that a child
will take with them into adult hood -- we can't control what they'll
remember! -- and to question ourselves if this is what we want to be
remembered for. It helps to see whether a choice we're about to make
will help them feel like we're someone they can bring problems to or
whether they feel like we're people who won't want to hear when
they've done something wrong.

If my first reaction to a choice my daughter has made is disapproval,
then she won't trust me not to disapprove of her. The more
*confidence* she has that I'll disapprove, the more likely she'll
seek out someone -- a friend who has as little experience as she? an
adult who wants to exploit her? -- who will offer sympathy and help.

I want her confidence that I will offer her sympathy and help. And if
she's coming to me, she already knows the choice wasn't the best! So
she doesn't need my disapproval. She needs my help.

> You have to define what works for each child and ultimatley for your
> family.

If you're coming from a childhood where you lacked loving attention
and you're trying to use limits in order to give what you missed to
your children, you may be giving them what you needed, rather than
seeing them for their own unique selves.

Too often when parents say they are doing what works for their
family, what they really mean is what works for the parents.

> I demand respect from my children because I deserve respect
> from them. I see other parents who dont' demand respect from their
> children and their children, scream, bite, kick, pull hair, all at
> their mother.

I don't demand respect from my daughter and yet she's respectful.

I *do* let her know when she's hurting me. I *do* let her know when
she's done something that may have hurt another. And I treat her with
respect.

If we approach our kids with the assumption that they've done
something because they're mean or bad, they're far less likely to
hear what we have to say. If we approach them assuming they're doing
the best that they can and that they don't have the skills or
understanding to make it work, then we can turn to *helping* them do
better.

Which person would you rather listen to: someone who assumed you did
something deliberately, or someone who assumed you just don't yet
understand?

> Again, not all children react this way and some learn
> respect different ways. YOu know your child.

People who have tried conventional parenting and then switched to
mindful parenting can tell you better that their children respond to
respect much better than to conventional parenting.

You grew up with neglect. You're now using conventional parenting.
Neither of those is what unschoolers mean when they talk about no rules.

> My children would not treat me with disdain or get away with
> behaviour like that.

Nor would my daughter. And without conventional parenting or
discipline or rules.

I *help* her figure out a better way when she is confused. She
*wants* to figure out a better way. She doesn't want to hurt people.
It would create a rift in our relationship if I assumed she wanted to
hurt others. That would say to her that I didn't understand her at
all. So why should she listen to me?

> I am also a human being and deserving of happiness also. And that
> means we all have to learn to respect one another and follow rules
> that make life manageble to everyone in the house.

We are *all* human beings and deserving of happiness.

I can't remember a time when an adult said, "I am also xxx, and
deserve yyy," when they didn't mean "Sometimes I need use my power
over my children in order to get my rights met." Which means that the
best way those parents have figured out how to get their needs met is
to be bigger and stronger and make someone else do what they want.
And that's the method they're modeling for their children.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

"Ignoring is not radical unschooling."

Exactly.
Neglect is never advocated at this list. Giving people freedom to
choose is one thing, but again, freedom without the awareness is just
insanity most times.

Mindful parents are very present for their children. They are
assisting them, guiding them and supporting them every step of the
way. We are often planning fun events and projects with our children,
paying close attention to their needs, NOTICING their steps, their
joys, their sorrows.

Very, very different from the neglect you suffered as a child. I can
see why you are equating structure and rules with love. What you had,
was apathy. Apathy is so incredibly hurtful, I'm sorry that was your
childhood experience.

I can tell you from my own experiences though, that although I felt
much love in my home, a bunch of rules and structure did not make for
a happy human being in my case. I was pretty angry by the time I hit
teen years! Still dealing with a lot of that stuff (had it surface
this week when my very spirited, intense child had a rough week) and I
really would like to move on!:)

I really believe that the kind of parenting we're advocating is the
best of all worlds. We aren't saying "let the kids alone, they'll
figure it all out"...no, no, no! Kids NEED help figuring out social
constructs and how the world works, how to communicate etc...

But we are saying TRUST them. Trust that they WANT to learn about
their world, trust that they WANT a guide to assist them kindly and
gently, trust that they're always doing their best with the tools
they've gathered so far.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: starsuncloud@...

I know that there are probably people who disagree with me, but I
can speak from my experience.

-=-=-

Yes. On this list there will be!

-==-=-=-

I remember being a child who had no limitations at all. I crossed
every line I could think of to get my parents to notice me and to
protect me from myself. I was pregnant at 17 and scared to death.
That didn't work either. After trying miserably for YEARS to get
somone to tell me how to get through life, at 23 I started to figure
some things out and really I am so far behind the curve. No
education, no chance of employment for more than minimum wage. I
never had to do anything. And I never learned to do it until I was
grown and really struggle a lot to learn it.

-=-=-=-

You weren't unschooled. Is that what you think
unschooling/gentle-peaceful parenting looks like?

You were neglected. I'm sorry.

-=-=-=-

There are children who do VERY well with no pressure. There are also
some who NEED and WANT structure. It's not torture to make a child
go to bed at a certain time.

-=-=-=-

It was for me. 7:00 when I was six and seven. 7:30 when I was eight
and nine. 8:00 when I was nine and ten. It was still LIGHT outside!!!
My friends were playing in the street. If I took an hour nap in the
afternoon, I could stay up an extra half-hour. If I took a two hour nap
in the afternoon, I could stay up an extra hour.

It *WAS* torture! I hated it!

-=-=-=-

It's not torture to limit what they eat.

-=-=-=-

It certainly can be.

-=-=-=-=-

You have to define what works for each child and ultimatley for your
family. I demand respect from my children because I deserve respect
from them. I see other parents who dont' demand respect from their
children and their children, scream, bite, kick, pull hair, all at
their mother. Again, not all children react this way and some learn
respect different ways. YOu know your child.

-=-=-=-

You can't demand respect form *any*one! You can *earn* it. That's all.

You don't deserve respect from your children. Not if you haven't
earned it. What have you done to deserve it? What do they say?

I don't demand respect from my children, and they don't scream, bite,
kick, or pull my hair.

-=-=-=-=-

I don't spank, but I really do mean what I say.
My children would not treat me with disdain or get away with
behaviour like that.

-=-=-

Or what? What do you do if they try to get away with it?

How old are they? Do you think that might change as they get older?
Why or why not?

-=-=-=-

I am also a human being and deserving of happiness also. And that
means we all have to learn to respect one another and follow rules
that make life manageble to everyone in the house.

-=-=-=-

I'm human and deserving of happiness. So are my children. Do you think
that they are mutually exclusive?

-=-=-=-

I am just suggesting that if its not working maybe trying something
new would bring about different results. Maybe he is acting out to
see if you care enough or are strong enough to stand up to him. To
me he sounds angry.

-=-=-=-=-

Maybe he's communicating with you and you're not understanding what's
he's trying to say. Maybe he's tired of your standing up to him, and he
needs your help. To me he sounds frustrated.

-=-=-=-
Why not try setting
consequences BEFORE you loose your cool. He gets them anyway. And
change the consequences.

-=-=-=-=-

Maybe try losing the "consequences" altogether. Work WITH him. be his
partner, not his adversary. Find out what's really wrong instead of
punishing him for not knowing how to communicate.

-=-=-=-

Maybe try making him clean up his own mess.

-=-=-=-=-

Please don't. Clean with him. Work with him.

-=--=-=-

You know your child and what will get through to him.

-=-=-=-

It sounds as if she actually doesn't. She's having trouble. She's
struggling. Things aren't getting through to him.

-=-=-=-=-

It might take a while, but consistency works.

-=-=-

Consistently listening and helping and seeing him where he is right
now. Yes.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities of
what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible. They
go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

It's not torture to make a child
go to bed at a certain time.
**********
My eldest child (now 18) spent time living at his father's house. Bedtime was at 9:00pm. 9:30 on weekends. My son has always had a later than most cycle of sleep. He would lie there in bed until about 3:00 or 4:00 waiting, struggling, trying to sleep.
Six or seven hours of lying in a darkened room. Nothing to do. Nobody to talk to.
Torture? I would say so.
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~Six or seven hours of lying in a darkened room. Nothing to do. Nobody
to talk to. Torture? I would say so.~

Ouch.
Reminds me of my teen years. I am a night owl. Have been since puberty
really. School sucked HARD for that very reason. I would lie awake
every night WANTING to go to sleep, because I knew I'd be tired the
next day but couldn't get tired until after midnight. The first part
of my school day was spent skipping or sleeping through class. Torture.

I remember even as a younger child, reading with a small lamp until
late at night, trying to not get caught. Torture.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

agasma7

> My eldest child (now 18) spent time living at his father's house.
Bedtime was at 9:00pm. 9:30 on weekends. My son has always had a
later than most cycle of sleep. He would lie there in bed until
about 3:00 or 4:00 waiting, struggling, trying to sleep.
> Six or seven hours of lying in a darkened room. Nothing to do.
Nobody to talk to.
> Torture? I would say so.
> Elissa Jill
> A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
> "A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
>


Well, I would agree with you. That certainly isn't what I have in
mind when I say bed time.

Maybe my problem with grasping what unschoolers do is the way I
define things.

You clarified principles, not rules, but I never thought to call it
that.
I don't have a list of rules saying bed time is at o dark thirty
sharp, and you must wear this, and this is your food EAT IT. I don't
care if the book is boring READ IT.

We are all learning to live respectfully toward one another. None of
us are angels all the time, but its not an approach of "you must
obey".

I agree 100% to everything that was said about living according to
principles.




>

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/19/2006 1:10:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

I remember even as a younger child, reading with a small lamp until
late at night, trying to not get caught. Torture.



***********

My mother made me go to bed really early, like 6:30 or 7 when I was younger.
She is an early bird and wanted peace and quiet before bed (as bookwormish
only child at the time....how much noise was I making????). Anyway, I would
lie in my room for hours and wait until my parents would go to bed, listen
for the sounds of them sleeping. Only then would I relax and go to sleep.
Sometimes I would crawl under their bed for awhile to feel close to them (until
I got caught).

It wasn't until college that I knew people actually went to bed and went
right to sleep. I thought everybody took hours to wind down like I did. One of
my roommates used to fall asleep to the TV, a habit I adopted and still have
20 years later! Nothing is harder to me than falling asleep without it.

My son, once he got old enough, seems to have the same pattern I did about
not being able to sleep until the rest of the house does. It is something I
work with because I understand.

I don't know if my sleep problems were created by being forced to bed early
or just who I am. But, look how much of my life was wasted by having to lie
in bed when I wasn't asleep. My son is his most creative at that time, I
assume I would have been the same way.

Leslie in SC, who gets upset when they mess up the late night TV schedule!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Caura-Yang Helene

This discussion thread came just on time for me as I was reading this
article from Jean Liedloff: "Who's in Control?" (http://www.continuum-
concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html).

I am a little bit confused about what she says and what I thought I
understood from RU, I quote:
"(...) because a toddler wants to learn what his people do, he
expects to be able to center his attention on an adult who is
centered on her own business. An adult who stops whatever she is
doing and tries to ascertain what her child wants her to do is short-
circuiting this expectation. Just as significantly, she appears to
the tot not to know how to behave, to be lacking in confidence and,
even more alarmingly, looking for guidance from him, a two or three
year old who is relying on her to be calm, competent, and sure of
herself."


It echoes with all your answers to our member that was given freedom
of everything. But what I don't get is: is the author telling us that
we shouldn't really be playing with our kids? Or just the toddlers?
In her book The Continuum Concept, she also starts by saying that
what the children want is not a permissive parent but a "strong,
busy, central figure to whom he can be peripheral (...)". I thought
RU was about being parallel with our children...Need some
clarification!

Deb

--- In [email protected], Leslie530@... wrote:
>
>
>
> Leslie in SC, who gets upset when they mess up the late night TV
>schedule!
Maybe DVR/TiVO a couple favorites? That way if they do monkey with the
schedule, you can pop that on instead and have that nice familiar
theme music and all. We're not usually up for really late night TV but
we do like certain programs as we wind down to sleep and if NONE of
them are on (rare but possible) we all feel a little antsy.
Fortunately, one of DS' favorites is the Weather Channel and that's
always going with one thing or another. He'll deliberately tune to
that and sit and watch sometimes, watch the radar and all for
everywhere not just our local weather. He's been fascinated by the
weather patterns and colorful radar displays since toddlerhood - maybe
because he was born in Oklahoma?(lol)

--Deb

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: noixcoco@...

This discussion thread came just on time for me as I was reading
this
article from Jean Liedloff: "Who's in Control?" (http://www.continuum-
concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html).

I am a little bit confused about what she says and what I thought I
understood from RU,

--=-==-=-

Liedoff s a popular author in unschooling circles (although I found her
book very hard to schlog through!). But she's NOT an unschooler, much
less a radical unschooler! <G>

-=--=-=-

It echoes with all your answers to our member that was given freedom
of everything. But what I don't get is: is the author telling us that
we shouldn't really be playing with our kids? Or just the toddlers?
In her book The Continuum Concept, she also starts by saying that
what the children want is not a permissive parent but a "strong,
busy, central figure to whom he can be peripheral (...)". I thought
RU was about being parallel with our children...Need some
clarification!

-=-=-=-=-

Take what you like from her books and take what you like from these
lists. Assimilate them in your life as you can. Leave what you don't
like! <G>

-=-=-=-

what the children want is not a permissive parent but a "strong,
busy, central figure to whom he can be peripheral

-=-=-=-

I think that too often, a mom will come here and complain that she has
no life---she gives it all to her children. She NEEDS her own life. And
her children NEED to see that too. If all you do is to cater to others
OR sit all day watching Oprah and eating bonbons: those aren't good
examples to be modelling. Better to model a joyful and involved life
full of passion. Be serious about something. Let your children SEE
that. And let them join you if they'd like.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 7/21/06, kbcdlovejo@... <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:

> I think that too often, a mom will come here and complain that she has
> no life---she gives it all to her children. She NEEDS her own life. And
> her children NEED to see that too. If all you do is to cater to others
> OR sit all day watching Oprah and eating bonbons: those aren't good
> examples to be modelling.

I really think that I am missing something in the whole motherhood
game because in all my years of being a mother I have yet to eat a
bonbon. I really feel my motherhood has been lacking and this may be
it. :-P

--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist