Anne B

Hi, Can someone explain the difference between unschooling and radical
unschooling?
Thanks!

Anne

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 7/14/06, Anne B <kbarnett3@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Can someone explain the difference between unschooling and radical
> unschooling?
> Thanks!
>

I actually have started using two different terms than Unschooling and
Radical Unschooling. The term I use to differentiate between Radical
Unschooling and other forms of "unschooling" is the term
"Non-Curriculum Homeschooling" NCH is simply that. It is home
educating your child while not using a formal curriculum and
approaching learning in a "self discovery" way. RU encompasses the
freedom of learning into all aspects of life. This includes such
controversial issues as freedom of food and sleep, freedom from
assigned chores and punitive discipline. It's living a free and
joyful life, not just abandoning a curriculum track. I know some
people who use NCH who are still very strict punitive disciplinarians,
control issues of food and sleep and are not living joyful fulfilled
lives.

Our whole family is unschooling now, including the adults.

--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Tina

> The term I use to differentiate between Radical Unschooling and
other forms of "unschooling" is the term "Non-Curriculum
Homeschooling" NCH is simply that. It is home educating your child
while not using a formal curriculum and approaching learning in
a "self discovery" way. RU encompasses the freedom of learning into
all aspects of life. This includes such controversial issues as
freedom of food and sleep, freedom from assigned chores and punitive
discipline. It's living a free and joyful life, not just abandoning a
curriculum track.>

Michelle

Thanks for giving this definition. The way you described Radical
Unschooling is really what I've always believed Unschooling to be.
Imagine that, me radical! :-)

Tina

Nicole Willoughby

This includes such
controversial issues as freedom of food and sleep, freedom from
assigned chores and punitive discipline. It's living a free and
joyful life>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So if I already do these things but havent managed to totaly abandon the curriculum and "when will she learn to read voices in my head" what am I? an unparent?

Nicole


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[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: cncnawilloughby@...

So if I already do these things but havent managed to totaly abandon
the
curriculum and "when will she learn to read voices in my head" what am
I? an
unparent?

-=-=-=-

Mindful/gentle parent who's not yet an unschooler? <g>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll


________________________________________________________________________
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Nicole Willoughby

Mindful/gentle parent who's not yet an unschooler? <g>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hey some of us are slower learners than others. *grin*
Im coming around slowly. Ya know though Id hadnt realized how far Ive come untill we moved in with some friends of ours.
DH has a job again now and we are trying to find our own place asap . Partially because of the drive to his job ( 1.5 hours each way) and partially because our parenting philosophies have become so different.
Yet I remember doing many of the same things they do just a few years ago......making my children stand in the corner, spanking, not allowing dessert till dinner was eaten and not allowing snacking ............etc. ::::Shudders::::

Nicole




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[email protected]

Ya know what? I go into Target and other places and see parents treating
their children horribly. I think unschooling is wonderful and great for children
and families, but if I got to pick whether a family was gentle and mindful
wioth their children or totally unschooled, I'd pick the gentle parenting every
time.

I also believe that someone who can make the most important changes in their
parenting will absolutely get there with the unschooling.

Kathryn

>>Mindful/gentle parent who's not yet an unschooler? <g>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hey some of us are slower learners than others. *grin*
Im coming around slowly. Ya know though Id hadnt realized how far Ive come
untill we moved in with some friends of ours.
DH has a job again now and we are trying to find our own place asap .
Partially because of the drive to his job ( 1.5 hours each way) and partially
because our parenting philosophies have become so different.
Yet I remember doing many of the same things they do just a few years
ago......making my children stand in the corner, spanking, not allowing dessert
till dinner was eaten and not allowing snacking ............Yet I remember
doiYet<<



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 7/16/06, KathrynJB@... <KathrynJB@...> wrote:
> Ya know what? I go into Target and other places and see parents treating
> their children horribly. I think unschooling is wonderful and great for children
> and families, but if I got to pick whether a family was gentle and mindful
> wioth their children or totally unschooled, I'd pick the gentle parenting every
> time.
>

I wish every parent was *at least* mindful and gentle. We were at a
friend's house this past Friday night. There was another mother there
with her 5yo daughter. She was a bright sweet joyful child and how
she has retained that joy is beyond me! Her mother had all these
rules and controlled everything that she did and ate. The child had
to eat at the table and had 2 measured tablespoons of food on her
plate. I am NOT kidding. She ha 1 T of mac-n-cheese and 1 T of a
casserole. The child ate it and was still hungry. Asked for more.
"No; that is all you need. There is sufficient nutrients in what you
had to eat." (While the mother sat there eating a huge bowl of food!)
"May I have a cookie?" LONG pause "I suppose so, but you have to eat
it at the table." (My kids were munching on a piece of bread in the
workshop while playing and watching tv.) Later the child did a
cartwheel headfirst into a coffee table. She was screaming. It's
that "I need my mommy I'm in horrible pain and scared" scream that
makes me drop everything I am doing and run to my child. We had to
tell the mother THREE times that her child needed her. Then the
mother barely held the child and only reprimanded her for doing
cartwheels in the house. "That's what you get for doing cartwheels
where they don't belong. Next time you won't do that will you." No
comfort, no compassion, no empathy for having a huge goose egg on her
head. My heart yearned so badly for this child. I wanted to grab her
from her mother and hold her and stroke her hair and kiss her forehead
and soothe her poor battered body and kiss her little tears away. All
I kept thinking all evening was, "I just wish she showed a little
gentleness and love towards this child." All the reaction between
mother and child was clinical and sterile and reprimanding. :-(



--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Ren Allen

~but if I got to pick whether a family was gentle and mindful
> wioth their children or totally unschooled, I'd pick the gentle
parenting every time.~

Same here.
All of our best friends over the years have been very diverse. Some
schooled, some homeschooled, some public...varying religions and
cultures. The one things our very closest friends have in common, is
that they're kind and sweet to their children. I really don't care
about much else, I just want to hang out with people that are nice to
their kids and not jumping on them for every little thing.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

dana_burdick

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" > Same here.
> All of our best friends over the years have been very diverse. Some
> schooled, some homeschooled, some public...varying religions and
> cultures. The one things our very closest friends have in common, is
> that they're kind and sweet to their children. I really don't care
> about much else, I just want to hang out with people that are nice to
> their kids and not jumping on them for every little thing.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
Well, I've just had another miserable weekend with friends who
traditionally parent. I could not get over the number of times I
heard the parents verbally tearing down their children. There was
this constant message that their children were not measuring up.
These are just some of the things I heard. "Why is it that other
people's children do what I tell them, but _my_ own children never do
what I tell them to?" Or... "She's just a space case. She's eleven;
she should be able to clean her own room. We're being stricter now and
withholding her privileges when she doesn't clean her room. Her
psychologist supports us in this." or... "Say thank you to Dana for
handing you a napkin." (Oh, palllease) Or… "That's really good that
sissy (made up name) controlled her self and didn't eat the pie." The
pie, I might mention, was being served to everyone at the party, both
children and adults.

Throughout the litany of degrading comments, they would throw in an
occasional "Good job!" when their little pets, I mean children, did
what they were told. My son got a couple "good jobs" from the parents
and I just had to cringe.

When they would have a kind word about their child, it was always a
boast about him or her meeting some kind of expectation.

I walked into the office at my friend's house where the teenage boys
were playing on the computer and getting ready to play some pokemon.
When they saw me, all three of them visibly flinched. These boys were
just having some fun, but I got the distinct impression they were
gripping themselves for getting some kind of trouble from this
adult. I just said jokingly, "I come in peace," and they all
relaxed. Their initial reaction though, made me very sad.

It is getting so painful for me now to participate in these
gatherings. I just want to say to the parents, please stop NOW and
look at how you are treating your children. It helps me feel better
by interacting and playing with their children and treating them with
respect. I am amazed every time I do this that the children respond
so well when treated respectfully, even when it is for a short time.

So, I have to say that I am getting a bit more selective with who I
hang out with these days, myself.

-Dana

mooosey3

>
> It is getting so painful for me now to participate in these
> gatherings. I just want to say to the parents, please stop NOW and
> look at how you are treating your children. It helps me feel better
> by interacting and playing with their children and treating them with
> respect. I am amazed every time I do this that the children respond
> so well when treated respectfully, even when it is for a short time.

~Hopefully you are making some impact by being a good example to these
parents by being respectful to their kids. Maybe something will click
for them one day and they'll see they need to handle things differently.
You never know how one interaction can change things several
interactions away.


> So, I have to say that I am getting a bit more selective with who I
hang out with these days, myself.

~I'm starting to be that way more and more. Why should I be around
people who don't bring me or my kids joy?? If they are disrespectful
to their own children, chances are they will be to mine as well. I like
to surround myself with people I respect and inspire me.



Heather

www.myeclectic.blogspot.com <http://www.myeclectic.blogspot.com>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicole Willoughby

It is getting so painful for me now to participate in these
> gatherings. I just want to say to the parents, please stop NOW and
> look at how you are treating your children. It helps me feel better
> by interacting and playing with their children and treating them with
> respect. I am amazed every time I do this that the children respond
> so well when treated respectfully, even when it is for a short time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I am struggling soooooo much with this right now. We are currently staying with some friends of ours right now trying to get back on our feet. We were great friends before we all had kids but Im just really wanting to seperate myself more and more now.

They are NOT mindful gentle parents at all. They are constantly yelling at their 6 year old, she is constantly throwing fits , constantly whining about food ( no wonder when she is only allowed 3 meals a day ) and they control everything !

Tonight Courtney , my 7 year old went to walmart with me and asked momma am I a pig? What?? no!! ( lol she is 7 and weighs 43 lbs) I realized later where she got that idea from when she mentioned that it was against the rules to eat to much here.
I told her that it seemed like that yes but if she was hungry Id always get her food.

Ive tried to encourage the other parents and gotten nowhere. Luckily we should be in our new house next Monday ( I hope ) .

Nicole


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[email protected]

>>We're being stricter now and
withholding her privileges when she doesn't clean her room. Her
psychologist supports us in this." <<

I ran into this with a family (and parents) that I really, really like. They
have this sweet, slightly whiney, but pretty easy kid. One day the mom was
quite gleeful in describing how Ali had lost "chair privileges" at dinner for
...oh, I have no idea what. Doing something clearly very terrible with her
chair at dinner. Perhaps she was using it to slaughter the family pets. This
mom also described how Ali almost lost "door privileges" for slamming her
bedroom door.

I kind of feel sorry for these people. They're trying SOOOO hard to find
"logical consequences" that they've lost their minds.
Kathryn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----


>>We're being stricter now and
withholding her privileges when she doesn't clean her room. Her
psychologist supports us in this." <<

-=-=-=-=-

The psychologist is being paid by the parents, not the child. As a
psychologists, it helps to know which side your bread is buttered on!

If the child were paying the bill, my guess is that the advice would be
to change the parents' behavior, not the child's.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: KathrynJB@...

This mom also described how Ali almost lost "door privileges" for
slamming her
bedroom door.

-=-=-=-

My neighbors must've used the same shrink!

Their daughter lost "door privileges" too---they toook her door off its
hinges. That was after they took her car, her phone, her computer, her
tv, and her music away.

Of course, she ran away and joined the navy.

When will they figure out that doesn't work?


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 7/19/06, kbcdlovejo@... <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:

>
> The psychologist is being paid by the parents, not the child. As a
> psychologists, it helps to know which side your bread is buttered on!
>
> If the child were paying the bill, my guess is that the advice would be
> to change the parents' behavior, not the child's.
>

Wow this is really deep. I've always wondered when a family goes to a
psychologist why the children are always seen as the one with the
problem rather than the parents. I guess parents are perfect and
children need to be changed to meet parental expectations. And I
never thought about the money factor before.

--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: pamperedmichelle@...

Wow this is really deep. I've always wondered when a family goes to a
psychologist why the children are always seen as the one with the
problem rather than the parents. I guess parents are perfect and
children need to be changed to meet parental expectations. And I
never thought about the money factor before.


-=-=-=-=-

<BWG> Well, I don't know how *deep* it is; seems rather shallow, if you
ask me! <G>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Joanne

Very interesting....and so true.

When we first adopted and had our kids in therapy, the therapist
once said to me "Your the ONLY parent here, that isn't the reason
WHY their kids are here". Sad, huh?

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (11) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/



--- In [email protected], "Michelle/Melbrigða"
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
>
> On 7/19/06, kbcdlovejo@... <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > The psychologist is being paid by the parents, not the child. As
a
> > psychologists, it helps to know which side your bread is
buttered on!
> >
> > If the child were paying the bill, my guess is that the advice
would be
> > to change the parents' behavior, not the child's.
> >
>
> Wow this is really deep. I've always wondered when a family goes
to a
> psychologist why the children are always seen as the one with the
> problem rather than the parents. I guess parents are perfect and
> children need to be changed to meet parental expectations. And I
> never thought about the money factor before.
>
> --
> Michelle
> aka Melbrigða
> http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
> [email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval
Recreationist
>

Lesa ODaniel

>From: "dana_burdick" <DanaBurdick@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: unschooling vs. radical unschooling
>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 21:30:29 -0000
>
<<It is getting so painful for me now to participate in these
gatherings. I just want to say to the parents, please stop NOW and
look at how you are treating your children. It helps me feel better
by interacting and playing with their children and treating them with
respect. I am amazed every time I do this that the children respond
so well when treated respectfully, even when it is for a short time.

So, I have to say that I am getting a bit more selective with who I
hang out with these days, myself. >>

**I hear ya. I never thought twice about these sorts of comments before I
found unschooling.

I'm finding more things that I can't comfortably attend anymore with my son.
One is an indoor/outdoor play gathering for toddlers in our area. It's kind
of like a huge open gym full of toys and riding toys, etc. and then an
outdoor area that people spill into after the gym closes (lots of water
features/sprinklers, etc.).

The last time we were there, another mom with a girl the same age as my son
(2) was just constantly tearing apart her daughter. Snacks brought on a
littany of, "only eat one at a time" and "hey, watch it, not so many". She
was sharing her snacks with other kids and her mom said to the other moms
(out loud, of course), "don't worry if your kids eat all her snacks - no one
eats as much as my daughter and she could use a break". Then she promptly
cut her off and packed away the snacks - little girl screaming and crying.

Also, she was loudly complaining about how her daughter doesn't want to use
the potty and she doesn't understand why she is still in diapers (at 2?).
She said that all she wants to do in the bathroom is brush her teeth
constantly and, "that's all she would do all day if I didn't put a stop to
it". Later she rushed to check her daughter's diaper while she was in the
middle of playing and the girl was upset at being interrupted. Her mom said,
"well, if you'd learn to use the potty we wouldn't have this problem".

All this in a really big gym and my son and I weren't even close. So many
little fights and arguments for nothing. So many detrimental words and
actions in such a short time. My son kept staring at the little girl and
pointing out how she was crying. It's tough to watch and I'm actively
seeking out other types of parents, too!


Lesa O'Daniel, AAHCC
Instructor, Bradley Method� of Natural Childbirth
323-541-5515
http://www.bradleybirth.com/ndweb.asp?ID=O123&Count=N

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Deb

--- In [email protected], "Lesa ODaniel"
<lesaodaniel@...> wrote:
> So many
> little fights and arguments for nothing. So many detrimental words
>and
> actions in such a short time.
The other night DH and I were out to dinner together (DS was playing
in the wading pool at MIL's with his cousin) and we got seated in an
area where there were kids pretty much everywhere around us
(sometimes that's my favorite place because I can smile at the kids
and play peek and the looks they give DH because of his Santa-look
are priceless). Anyhow, the table across from us was 3 adults and a
toddler, looked about 2 maybe 3 at most. She was standing next
to "dad" (just guessing at the various roles/relationships). "mom"
was standing, cutting up something on a plate at the place adjacent
to the "dad" which I can only guess was the tot's seat. They kept
saying "you have to sit down to eat dinner" and the little one
didn't want to. She wanted dinner and standing up. They wrassled and
she fussed and they demanded and she resisted until finally
the "mom" took the girl out of the restaurant and the dad told the
waitress who had arrived with the rest of the food to put it in take
out boxes because the little girl couldn't behave and had to be
taken out. I could just imagine the shaming that girl received "it's
your fault we had to leave..." As they were wrassling, I told DH in
a slightly louder than my usual voice but not pointedly yelling
voice about how the other day when DS (he's 8) was having dinner
with me at a restaurant, he would stand and go around the side of
the table to eat his side dish (which was literally on a side dish)
instead of having both dishes in front of him and then he would go
around the side of the table and stand to eat the other side of his
huge piece of chocolate cake dessert. I was kind of hoping they
could hear that it was Okay for a kid to not sit down to eat, even
in a restaurant, provided it was a safe spot (not likely to get
bumped into and such).

They left, we went on with dinner, but every once in a while I'd
growl a little and DH would say "Still thinking about that huh?" It
just bothered me the whole time. Then we went out and got a surprise
for DS (a new, real, electronic dart board with soft tip darts to
replace his toy bristle dart dartboard that was falling apart).

--Deb

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 7/20/06, Deb <soggyboysmom@...> wrote:

> They left, we went on with dinner, but every once in a while I'd
> growl a little and DH would say "Still thinking about that huh?" It
> just bothered me the whole time. Then we went out and got a surprise
> for DS (a new, real, electronic dart board with soft tip darts to
> replace his toy bristle dart dartboard that was falling apart).
>

I have often taken a restless child out of a restaurant. Not as
punishment, but as relief for the child. Keon does not sit and wait
well. Sometimes he is just so restless that being in a restaurant
waiting for food is anguishing. It's never been a big deal. I've
even taken him out with a menu to sit on a bench outside and used my
cell phone to "phone in" our orders! LOL! I truly believe that it
was physically uncomfortable for Keon to sit and wait while he watched
other tables having food brought to them. Sadly, many times when we
have walked out of a restaurant I have heard people say presumingly,
"OH I bet he's in for it now!" Meaning that he is being punished, when
the opposite is true. I've even had our meals packed in a to go box
and then gone outside to sit and eat because he just didn't want to be
there in that restaurant at that moment. I probably looked like the
couple you were describing, but I sure didn't treat my child in that
fashion.

Little bodies sometimes just need to be able to move as they need.
There was a time when I just prefered not eating out because I knew
that society expected a certain level of conformity that was not
reasonable for all (or most) children. It wasn't because my children
couldn't "behave" in public but because I knew that they would be much
more comfortable at home.

--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Lesa McMahon-Lowe

I see the sad state of the way so many children are treated often. I see
it when I'm at work, when I'm shopping, when I'm out to dinner. It only
reinforces my own values of respectful parenting... that we can begin to
change this world one child at a time.


Lesa
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net

-------Original Message-------

From: Deb
Date: 07/20/06 12:39:34
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Other parents (WAS: unschooling vs. radical
unschooling)

They kept
saying "you have to sit down to eat dinner" and the little one
didn't want to. She wanted dinner and standing up. They wrassled and
she fussed and they demanded and she resisted until finally
the "mom" took the girl out of the restaurant and the dad told the
waitress who had arrived with the rest of the food to put it in take
out boxes because the little girl couldn't behave and had to be
taken out. I could just imagine the shaming that girl received "it's
your fault we had to leave..."

--Deb

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicole Willoughby

Little bodies sometimes just need to be able to move as they need.
There was a time when I just prefered not eating out because I knew
that society expected a certain level of conformity that was not
reasonable for all (or most) children. It wasn't because my children
couldn't "behave" in public but because I knew that they would be much
more comfortable at home.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have taught my kids to quietly tell me they need a walkabout. Of course if I sense it even if they havent told me then we do. It just works good for us to teach them to express things like this so we can take care of it before they become a big disruption to others.

I also keep a couple of bags packed in my trunk. One is you basic changes of clothes, blanket diapers etc. The other I try to change out with new suprises in ...but paper, bottles of mini bubbles, cards etc...........I find this really helpful when we have to go to dr appts and I have no choice but to take all of them and its hard to leave because we are waiting for our name to be called.

I have to say my children's old pediatrician knew just what she was doing. She had her practice in an old house and there was the normal inside waiting room with toys n such , then a fenced in "waiting yard" :)

Nicole


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesa ODaniel

I know what you mean about taking your child out of the restaurant. When my
son gets freakishly active - trying to stand on the table or wanting to run
in the aisles of the restaurant while people are working - I or my husband
take him outside to run back and forth on the sidewalk in front of the
restaurant. I think people must think we're crazy running back and forth in
front of everyone. The other adult left inside the restaurant orders for
everyone and we go back inside once the food is at the table. That way, he's
got all of his super energy out and then is able to focus on eating - of
course, he has to stand on his seat next to us while eating, but I don't
mind that :)



Lesa O'Daniel, AAHCC
Instructor, Bradley Method� of Natural Childbirth
323-541-5515
http://www.bradleybirth.com/ndweb.asp?ID=O123&Count=N





>From: "Michelle/Melbrig�a" <pamperedmichelle@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Other parents (WAS: unschooling vs.
>radical unschooling)
>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:57:00 -0500
>
<<I have often taken a restless child out of a restaurant. Not as
punishment, but as relief for the child. Keon does not sit and wait
well. Sometimes he is just so restless that being in a restaurant
waiting for food is anguishing. >>

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Deb

--- In [email protected], "Michelle/Melbrigða"
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
Oh Michelle I know and I've done it too - Joshua is a 110% energy
boy - BUT the whole tone of that group was "sit down and
behave 'properly' and don't be a bother to us". No attempt to find a
way to meet multiple needs, it was "my way or the highway",
not "this is being difficult for HER so I'll take her outside" it
was more "SHE'S being a spectacle so I'll remove her"

I have no problems with families who are being respectful of their
kids' needs to move or find other venues or whatever. But that
wasn't this situation - I was close enough to hear what they were
saying to and about her and the situation.

And, too, I think most of us would also try to gauge the situation
ahead of time and prepare, plan, and arrange things to be more
comfortable for those involved (kids AND adults) or just not go if
the child or children were just not at a place where they could
handle it.

We've taken Joshua outside, we've deliberately requested particular
locations in certain restaurants, we've requested crackers and lemon
slices and such as we sat down so there'd be something ASAP on the
table to munch. We've even had Joshua sit there with his gameboy and
headphones (which some people find horrifying). Whatever works,
works.

--Deb

Deb

That's why we often pick strategically located tables and request
them specifically. And we've come up with things like "basketball"
with Joshua - he stands and I put my hand out head high to him and
he bounces up and down, just tapping my hand with his head each time
so it looks like I am dribbling him like a basketball. That takes
minimal space (a table near a wall with him between me and the wall
works) and it gives him an outlet for movement without his becoming
a hazard to himself or others. We'll do thumb wars, arm wrestling,
whatever. And sometimes we sit outside and wait (helps if both DH
and I have our cell phones - DH can call us when food arrives). One
favorite place has those claw machine things in the lobby/waiting
area so we make sure to bring a handful of quarters with us and
we'll play there while waiting to sit and go back there if the
service is slow (it rarely is at this place, if you time it right -
see below).

We also try to time things - NO going to certain restaurants on
Friday or Saturday evenings - too much wait, too long for service
because the kitchen is super-busy, etc. Sometimes we'll have a snack
in transit, before we leave the house, or even sitting at the table
if need be (that's where asking for several packs of crackers AS we
sit comes in) and I have no qualms about producing a couple packets
of crackers from my purse as needed. (DH jokes that my purse is a
magic black hole - it always seems to have exactly what we need as
we need it).

And sometimes we just don't even bother going out - we know that
we're all tired or whatever and it's just better to go home and eat
PBJs in calm than to try to get a meal at a restaurant. And, too,
since Joshua has spent most of his life eating at restaurants on a
regular basis, he's kind of used to it. Plus, a big one that a lot
of "mainstream" families don't get, is that HE also has a say in
where we go and has since he could express his opinion. So, for
example, we don't go to Chili's as a family - it's too loud and busy
for him. If DH and I really really want Chili's food, we go when
Joshua is at Grandma's or work some other arrangements out. Just as
since DH doesn't like another particular restaurant that Joshua and
I like, so he stays home and Joshua and I go there occasionally on
our mom & son dates.

--Deb

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

I'm gonna chime in here as a voice from the restaurant side.
I'm a waitress in a family style restaurant. I have definately seen my share of mean parents, just like you have described.
Noisy kids are not a real big deal, stacking jellies as high as you can? Cool with me. Just put 'em back before you leave.
Standing on the seat of the booth? Very uncool. Would you let me or my kids come to your home and stand on your chairs? Seat fabric takes alot of wear in a restaurant and is very expensive to repair or replace.
Here are my suggestions:
1. Stay in your seats as much as you can. If a kid gets itchy, take them for a walk outside, look at the landscaping, check out the rear of the building and see how stuff is handled back there, go look at the pie case. But PLEASE don't let your child stand at the edge of the booth or between tables. Servers come through dining rooms very quickly and are carrying trays of hot food. It is almost impossible to see little ones in the aisles when you have 5 or 6 plates stacked on your arms. Restaurant ware is extra heavy and durable. Even one plate dropping on a little noggin could be a severe injury.
2. If you pass crackers along to your tots, PLEASE check the seats and floors around your table for trash and crumbs before you leave. Servers are required to keep their areas clean for the next group occupying a table and every minute spent cleaning up after people is $$ out of their pockets. I could spend 10 minutes cleaning after each table leaves, and if I turn over each table six times in a shift, that is an hour that I have worked for $2.15 cents. I could turn that table over a seventh time and make 5 times that.
3. The federal government has mandated that servers do not need to make minimum wage, the average restaurant pays its servers between $2.10 and $2.20 per hour. At my restaurant, I average $85 per shift. Out of that we must pay 2.5% of our total sales to bussers and the bar, even if our tips for the night are poor. I've had to give out as much as $20 tip-out on a $65 dollar night. In addition to that tip out, I have to pay taxes based on my total sales (not on how much I actually earn). Please keep this in mind when you come in with children. As we all know children ARE messier than adults and waiting on families tends to be more work intensive. Please keep that in mind when you tip your servers. Personally, I tip 20% unless the service is bad (and it's gotta be REALLY bad for me to tip less. As a server myself, I am very forgiving) and when I go in with little ones I tip closer to 23%
YMMV. :o)
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanne

--- In [email protected], "Lesa ODaniel"
lesaodaniel@...> wrote:
>I know what you mean about taking your child out of the restaurant.
When my son gets freakishly active - trying to stand on the table or
wanting to run in the aisles of the restaurant while people are
working - I or my husband take him outside to run back and forth on
the sidewalk in front of the restaurant. >>>>


Been there, done that. Just last month I had to take him outside for
a while because he and his friend (who was having dinner with us)
were racing the chairs (they had wheels) in Olive Garden. He just
needed a few minutes outside and then he was calm for the rest of
the evening.

Oh...did I mention I was talking about my husband? LOL

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (11) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com

Nicole Willoughby

Ok the not letting small children stand at the edge of tables I understand.

The standing on a chair ......while I encourage my children not to stand on chairs because they might fall I just dont see that huge a deal with my 2 or 3 year old standing in the booth with me. Its usualy not an issue for us.....we are poor and rarely eat out anyway:) but maybe Ill slip off their shoes and let them stand in their socks.


The tips .......I must completely agree on this. For all the reasons you have already stated.

I think whats most important is that parents consider their childrens needs and feeling in the whole equation instead of saying well I want to go to outback steakhouse and you are going to sit quietly and like it or else!

If my kiddos come with us we do our best to bring them not overly hungry, in good moods and with things to occupy them. Often we find it easier to leave the kiddos with someone occasionly and go just the 2 of us. At 7 and under they will usualy choose happy meals from mcdonalds and a picnic in the back yard over sitting at o' charleys.
And dh and I as adults must admit the we enjoy an occasional kid free conversation.

Nicole


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesa ODaniel

Elissa,

I'm glad you posted all that information. I waited tables for 8 years and
always wished I had a forum to broadcast the tipping stuff to the world. As
a parent with a messy child, I always overtip - 20% used to be my minimum.
Now it's at least an extra $5 on top of the 20+% I leave and we try to clean
up as much as we can before we leave - not always possible to do completely,
though.

**By the way, yes, I would let you all come over and stand on my chairs at
home. I always stood on chairs when I was a child and my mom didn't have a
problem with it. I always let my son stand on our chairs at home. It is not
acceptable for my son to get on the table at a restaurant and we talk about
why that is - dirty shoes on an eating surface, the next customers don't
want to eat on a surface like that, etc., etc. He's 23 pounds and isn't
jumping around on the banquette, he's simply standing still and eating - no
more wear and tear than my or anyone else's butt. Plus, he's not on the edge
- we talk about staying out of the wait staff's way because they are really
fast and then we end up watching to see who is the fastest server in the
restaurant - that's always fun :)


Lesa O'Daniel, AAHCC
Instructor, Bradley Method� of Natural Childbirth
323-541-5515
http://www.bradleybirth.com/ndweb.asp?ID=O123&Count=N





>From: "Elissa Jill Cleaveland" <MystikMomma@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Other parents (WAS: unschooling vs.
>radical unschooling)
>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 15:43:38 -0400
>
<<I'm gonna chime in here as a voice from the restaurant side.>>

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