Oh Bother, Someone's Messy
dana_burdick
One day when my family was out at dinner, my daughter asked me to
read some children's books that the restaurant keeps on hand. One
of the books was a Winnie the Pooh book called, "Oh Bother!
Someone's Messy". As I read the book, I became more and more
irritated. I couldn't believe what I was reading.
The Story: Kanga, Roo's mom, is frustrated that Roo's room is messy
and that he doesn't care about it. She decides that she has to do
something about it. She says to Roo that she doesn't care about his
room any more and he can make it as messy as he likes. She is
lying, of course, and is plotting to make Roo `want' to clean his
room. As you would expect, in the end Roo comes to see his
mother's `wisdom' and happily cleans his room. The book's message
to adults: it's ok to out and out lie to a child and to finagle a
plan to get him to do what ever you want. If a child experiences a
messy enough room, there will be a point where he _will_ care and
clean the room to your expectations. The book's message to
children: You are a bad person for being messy and not caring about
the condition of your room. You should know better and are expected
to want the same level of cleanliness and organization as an adult.
It's ok to lie to a person to get what you want.
In my mind, manipulating and lying to a person so that he does what
you want is called coercion. If Kanga did this to another adult
most folks would think that she was a liar and a manipulative
b**ch. In this book however, she is a role model for good parenting.
This made me so angry that I decided to write a hypothetical
situation involving my husband to demonstrate how unacceptable this
behavior would be with an adult and also to demonstrate how the
situation could be handled with more care and compassion.
***
Consider this scenario:
Let's say that I wanted my husband to go to the store and fix dinner
for the family one night when I was busy at work. I ask him if he
thinks that he can do this for me. As an inexperienced cook he
feels a bit overwhelmed, but doesn't want to disappoint me, so he
says, yes. His heart is in the right place, but he really can't seem
to get it all together, so dinner that night ends up being cereal
for the kids and some popcorn for him.
I decide that this is completely unacceptable and vow to get him to
cook for the family the next time. After all, I say, he should CARE
about what he and the children eat. A day passes and I decide I
will stay at work late just to get him to do the cooking. I lie and
tell him that I can't come home. I say to myself, this is for his
own good. If he gets hungry enough and the kids complain enough,
he'll learn to get groceries and learn to cook, by gosh.
That night, he prepares a modest dinner. Wow, I think, he learned
his lesson. How clever am I? Later however, he learns that I lied
about staying at work late. His lesson: Don't trust my wife. My
lesson: Learn to lie and not get caught? Mmm Or, is my lesson,
don't lie to begin with?
In this situation, do you think he'll ever willingly and lovingly
cook another dinner for the family?
Here's another scenario
After asking my husband to cook, he says, yes. He feels a little
timid because of his inexperience as a cook, but doesn't want to
disappoint me. He isn't quite sure what recipe to cook, what
ingredients to get and is a bit stressed about where to find the
stuff in the store. Realizing that a cook isn't made overnight, I
provide him with a recipe, grocery list and pointers on where to
locate the food at the store.
Later that night, I find he has made spaghetti and has left-overs
waiting for me. It's not exactly the recipe I had suggested, but
he was very thoughtful in saving some for me. Things are not done
exactly as I would have them, but the kids are happy and I give him
a big thanks and a hug.
Here's one last scenario
After asking my husband to cook, he says, no. He knows that he is
so inexperienced that he simply is not ready to take on this task on
his own and is afraid of disappointing me. He can't admit that in
words, but I know that with some things the learning curve is just
too steep. Instead of putting him in an even tougher situation and
insisting that he stick it out or lying to get him to do it, I
decide to make some practical suggestions. I suggest that he order
some take-out or pick up a frozen pizza from the store. Or, I ask,
if he can get the groceries and wait a bit for dinner, than I will
do the cooking when I get home. These are just a few possibilities.
"Oh Bother! Someone's Messy" Yuck, how belittling. I could
parallel, "Oh Bother! Someone's a Bad Cook." Does that help my
husband become a better cook? Does it help me get a dinner on the
table? Does it send the message that my husband is a valued and
loved member of the family? Does it do anything for my relationship
with my husband? No, no, no and no.
***
What makes me really really angry is that I was that mom a couple
years ago, following conventional wisdom, forcing my children to
clean their rooms in coercive ways and thinking, "it's for their own
good." Thanks to all the folks on the unschooling lists, I have
learned that there are better ways to help children learn. Shaming,
lying and coercing are not it, whatever books and the mainstream
seem to think. With my eyes wide open, I am a little melancholy
knowing that the vast majority of children are treated this way.
This is why sometimes I just gotta' find a place where no one can
hear me scream, "I LOVE UNSCHOOLING!"
-Dana
read some children's books that the restaurant keeps on hand. One
of the books was a Winnie the Pooh book called, "Oh Bother!
Someone's Messy". As I read the book, I became more and more
irritated. I couldn't believe what I was reading.
The Story: Kanga, Roo's mom, is frustrated that Roo's room is messy
and that he doesn't care about it. She decides that she has to do
something about it. She says to Roo that she doesn't care about his
room any more and he can make it as messy as he likes. She is
lying, of course, and is plotting to make Roo `want' to clean his
room. As you would expect, in the end Roo comes to see his
mother's `wisdom' and happily cleans his room. The book's message
to adults: it's ok to out and out lie to a child and to finagle a
plan to get him to do what ever you want. If a child experiences a
messy enough room, there will be a point where he _will_ care and
clean the room to your expectations. The book's message to
children: You are a bad person for being messy and not caring about
the condition of your room. You should know better and are expected
to want the same level of cleanliness and organization as an adult.
It's ok to lie to a person to get what you want.
In my mind, manipulating and lying to a person so that he does what
you want is called coercion. If Kanga did this to another adult
most folks would think that she was a liar and a manipulative
b**ch. In this book however, she is a role model for good parenting.
This made me so angry that I decided to write a hypothetical
situation involving my husband to demonstrate how unacceptable this
behavior would be with an adult and also to demonstrate how the
situation could be handled with more care and compassion.
***
Consider this scenario:
Let's say that I wanted my husband to go to the store and fix dinner
for the family one night when I was busy at work. I ask him if he
thinks that he can do this for me. As an inexperienced cook he
feels a bit overwhelmed, but doesn't want to disappoint me, so he
says, yes. His heart is in the right place, but he really can't seem
to get it all together, so dinner that night ends up being cereal
for the kids and some popcorn for him.
I decide that this is completely unacceptable and vow to get him to
cook for the family the next time. After all, I say, he should CARE
about what he and the children eat. A day passes and I decide I
will stay at work late just to get him to do the cooking. I lie and
tell him that I can't come home. I say to myself, this is for his
own good. If he gets hungry enough and the kids complain enough,
he'll learn to get groceries and learn to cook, by gosh.
That night, he prepares a modest dinner. Wow, I think, he learned
his lesson. How clever am I? Later however, he learns that I lied
about staying at work late. His lesson: Don't trust my wife. My
lesson: Learn to lie and not get caught? Mmm Or, is my lesson,
don't lie to begin with?
In this situation, do you think he'll ever willingly and lovingly
cook another dinner for the family?
Here's another scenario
After asking my husband to cook, he says, yes. He feels a little
timid because of his inexperience as a cook, but doesn't want to
disappoint me. He isn't quite sure what recipe to cook, what
ingredients to get and is a bit stressed about where to find the
stuff in the store. Realizing that a cook isn't made overnight, I
provide him with a recipe, grocery list and pointers on where to
locate the food at the store.
Later that night, I find he has made spaghetti and has left-overs
waiting for me. It's not exactly the recipe I had suggested, but
he was very thoughtful in saving some for me. Things are not done
exactly as I would have them, but the kids are happy and I give him
a big thanks and a hug.
Here's one last scenario
After asking my husband to cook, he says, no. He knows that he is
so inexperienced that he simply is not ready to take on this task on
his own and is afraid of disappointing me. He can't admit that in
words, but I know that with some things the learning curve is just
too steep. Instead of putting him in an even tougher situation and
insisting that he stick it out or lying to get him to do it, I
decide to make some practical suggestions. I suggest that he order
some take-out or pick up a frozen pizza from the store. Or, I ask,
if he can get the groceries and wait a bit for dinner, than I will
do the cooking when I get home. These are just a few possibilities.
"Oh Bother! Someone's Messy" Yuck, how belittling. I could
parallel, "Oh Bother! Someone's a Bad Cook." Does that help my
husband become a better cook? Does it help me get a dinner on the
table? Does it send the message that my husband is a valued and
loved member of the family? Does it do anything for my relationship
with my husband? No, no, no and no.
***
What makes me really really angry is that I was that mom a couple
years ago, following conventional wisdom, forcing my children to
clean their rooms in coercive ways and thinking, "it's for their own
good." Thanks to all the folks on the unschooling lists, I have
learned that there are better ways to help children learn. Shaming,
lying and coercing are not it, whatever books and the mainstream
seem to think. With my eyes wide open, I am a little melancholy
knowing that the vast majority of children are treated this way.
This is why sometimes I just gotta' find a place where no one can
hear me scream, "I LOVE UNSCHOOLING!"
-Dana
Deb
I know that book - we have it. It was part of a Winnie the Pooh book
club thing that I got into when DS was a baby. Some of the books
were great fun (there's one where one of the critters finds that
Pooh's favorite berries are ripe and they head off to get some and
end up using Piglet's nightcap as a berry pail) but there were a few
(this one included) that I tended to skip over if at all possible.
Another one is one where they go to "the doctor" and get shots and
such, all told with the assumption that all kids inevitably must get
shots.
DS leaves his room however he chooses (my mom did the same with us -
she'd just close the door if she didn't want to see it) BUT he also
knows that if he leaves small toys in the living areas (living room,
basement playroom) there is a chance that the dog will steal them
and chew on them. So, he picks those items up (BTW we don't
deliberately leave stuff out "to teach him a lesson" - if I go by
and notice his Bionicle bin is open on the floor and we're about to
leave the house, the most likely time for the dog to go after
things, I'll put it up).
--Deb
club thing that I got into when DS was a baby. Some of the books
were great fun (there's one where one of the critters finds that
Pooh's favorite berries are ripe and they head off to get some and
end up using Piglet's nightcap as a berry pail) but there were a few
(this one included) that I tended to skip over if at all possible.
Another one is one where they go to "the doctor" and get shots and
such, all told with the assumption that all kids inevitably must get
shots.
DS leaves his room however he chooses (my mom did the same with us -
she'd just close the door if she didn't want to see it) BUT he also
knows that if he leaves small toys in the living areas (living room,
basement playroom) there is a chance that the dog will steal them
and chew on them. So, he picks those items up (BTW we don't
deliberately leave stuff out "to teach him a lesson" - if I go by
and notice his Bionicle bin is open on the floor and we're about to
leave the house, the most likely time for the dog to go after
things, I'll put it up).
--Deb
Michelle/Melbrigða
On 7/12/06, dana_burdick <DanaBurdick@...> wrote:
there are nights that we have cereal and popcorn and everyone is quite
pleased :-) I don't think it is my business to teach nor expect
another adult to live by my standards nor close to my standards.
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
> ***I see this as doing the best with what he has available to him. And
> Consider this scenario:
> Let's say that I wanted my husband to go to the store and fix dinner
> for the family one night when I was busy at work. I ask him if he
> thinks that he can do this for me. As an inexperienced cook he
> feels a bit overwhelmed, but doesn't want to disappoint me, so he
> says, yes. His heart is in the right place, but he really can't seem
> to get it all together, so dinner that night ends up being cereal
> for the kids and some popcorn for him.
>
there are nights that we have cereal and popcorn and everyone is quite
pleased :-) I don't think it is my business to teach nor expect
another adult to live by my standards nor close to my standards.
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
Maisha Khalfani
***The book's message
to adults: it's ok to out and out lie to a child and to finagle a
plan to get him to do what ever you want. If a child experiences a
messy enough room, there will be a point where he _will_ care and
clean the room to your expectations. The book's message to
children: You are a bad person for being messy and not caring about
the condition of your room. You should know better and are expected
to want the same level of cleanliness and organization as an adult.
It's ok to lie to a person to get what you want. *****
Wow Dana! I've never read that book, but I'm floored by the teachings in it. Now I have to go through my kids' books and see what "trash lessons" are in them. I'm with you Dana - I still don't always 'get it', but I love learning about unschooling.
Oh, a happy moment for me today: my husband is really bummed about not being able to find a job. He's been home with the kids and it's been pretty frustrating for him. But today....he built a HUGE lego tower with the 7 and 6 yr old (the 3 yr old and 1 yr old were sleeping). I took pics of it and I'm going to put them on my blog. I just thought it was cool that in the midst of his funk he took time to do something with the kids that they love so much.
Okay...it's time for cereal and an apple for dinner for my 3 yr old. How's THAT for no limits with food??? LOL
Maisha Khalfani
Khalfani Family Adventures
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>
EarthSpirit Readings
http://www.geocities.com/maitai373/EarthSpirit.html<http://www.geocities.com/maitai373/EarthSpirit.html>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to adults: it's ok to out and out lie to a child and to finagle a
plan to get him to do what ever you want. If a child experiences a
messy enough room, there will be a point where he _will_ care and
clean the room to your expectations. The book's message to
children: You are a bad person for being messy and not caring about
the condition of your room. You should know better and are expected
to want the same level of cleanliness and organization as an adult.
It's ok to lie to a person to get what you want. *****
Wow Dana! I've never read that book, but I'm floored by the teachings in it. Now I have to go through my kids' books and see what "trash lessons" are in them. I'm with you Dana - I still don't always 'get it', but I love learning about unschooling.
Oh, a happy moment for me today: my husband is really bummed about not being able to find a job. He's been home with the kids and it's been pretty frustrating for him. But today....he built a HUGE lego tower with the 7 and 6 yr old (the 3 yr old and 1 yr old were sleeping). I took pics of it and I'm going to put them on my blog. I just thought it was cool that in the midst of his funk he took time to do something with the kids that they love so much.
Okay...it's time for cereal and an apple for dinner for my 3 yr old. How's THAT for no limits with food??? LOL
Maisha Khalfani
Khalfani Family Adventures
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>
EarthSpirit Readings
http://www.geocities.com/maitai373/EarthSpirit.html<http://www.geocities.com/maitai373/EarthSpirit.html>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: pamperedmichelle@...
I see this as doing the best with what he has available to him. And
there are nights that we have cereal and popcorn and everyone is quite
pleased :-) I don't think it is my business to teach nor expect
another adult to live by my standards nor close to my standards.
-=-=-=-
But that's the point. Most people think children *should* live up to
adult standards.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
From: pamperedmichelle@...
I see this as doing the best with what he has available to him. And
there are nights that we have cereal and popcorn and everyone is quite
pleased :-) I don't think it is my business to teach nor expect
another adult to live by my standards nor close to my standards.
-=-=-=-
But that's the point. Most people think children *should* live up to
adult standards.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
dana_burdick
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
adult 'standards' aren't all the same anyway and there is much more
tolorance with adults than with children.
>quite
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pamperedmichelle@...
>
> I see this as doing the best with what he has available to him. And
> there are nights that we have cereal and popcorn and everyone is
> pleased :-) I don't think it is my business to teach nor expectExactly! This is especially difficult to swallow because
> another adult to live by my standards nor close to my standards.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> But that's the point. Most people think children *should* live up to
> adult standards.
>
adult 'standards' aren't all the same anyway and there is much more
tolorance with adults than with children.