gentler way of talking to kids
Ren
"So I need suggestions... yesterday we got back from a lovely afternoon at the
pool. I asked dd (7.98yo) to go back to the car to get the rest of her things.
At first she ignored me, so I politely asked again. (Starting to feel the heat
rise.) I asked her why she wasn't replying and she said, "No."
"No what?" "No I won't go to the car." "Why not?"
"I don't want to. I want to play with the dog." That was it... I gave
an authoritarian response. I believe I threatened a consequence and she
eventually went."
Your control was simply cloaked by a false request. A true request means the other person has a choice. She didn't, or you probably wouldn't have felt the anger rising when she said no.
If it's really a request, "no, I want to play with the dog" would have been an acceptable response. You could have gotten the items yourself if it was reaally important, or asked her to get them when she was done.
You've got some serious power struggle going, and until you get past that, she's not going to care much about what you want. Threatening a consequence is still the authoritarian/punishment method.
What a lot of us here have found, is you don't need either the passive/do nothing or the disciplinarian approach. There is a middle ground. One where children ARE treated with equal respect as adults, but where the parent also cares about themselves and is capable of setting healthy boundaries. Boundaries like not letting anyone harm you physically or mentally, boundaries that make sense and are not based on some arbitrary "shoulds".
Could you clarify something for us? You talked about writing lessons...are you learning about unschooling and still doing school at home, or have you just recently stopped doing lessons?
If you're still forcing lessons, try unschooling! That will resolve some of the power struggle and conflicts right there.
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
pool. I asked dd (7.98yo) to go back to the car to get the rest of her things.
At first she ignored me, so I politely asked again. (Starting to feel the heat
rise.) I asked her why she wasn't replying and she said, "No."
"No what?" "No I won't go to the car." "Why not?"
"I don't want to. I want to play with the dog." That was it... I gave
an authoritarian response. I believe I threatened a consequence and she
eventually went."
Your control was simply cloaked by a false request. A true request means the other person has a choice. She didn't, or you probably wouldn't have felt the anger rising when she said no.
If it's really a request, "no, I want to play with the dog" would have been an acceptable response. You could have gotten the items yourself if it was reaally important, or asked her to get them when she was done.
You've got some serious power struggle going, and until you get past that, she's not going to care much about what you want. Threatening a consequence is still the authoritarian/punishment method.
What a lot of us here have found, is you don't need either the passive/do nothing or the disciplinarian approach. There is a middle ground. One where children ARE treated with equal respect as adults, but where the parent also cares about themselves and is capable of setting healthy boundaries. Boundaries like not letting anyone harm you physically or mentally, boundaries that make sense and are not based on some arbitrary "shoulds".
Could you clarify something for us? You talked about writing lessons...are you learning about unschooling and still doing school at home, or have you just recently stopped doing lessons?
If you're still forcing lessons, try unschooling! That will resolve some of the power struggle and conflicts right there.
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
Jeanne Goodman
Dear Ren,
"What a lot of us here have found, is you don't need either the passive/do nothing or the disciplinarian approach. There is a middle ground. One where children ARE treated with equal respect as adults, but where the parent also cares about themselves and is capable of setting healthy boundaries."
Great! How do I do that?
"Could you clarify something for us? You talked about writing lessons...are you learning about unschooling and still doing school at home, or have you just recently stopped doing lessons? If you're still forcing lessons, try unschooling! That will resolve some of the power struggle and conflicts right there."
Well, I'm not sure what you would call what I'm doing. 90% of the day is letting the kids do their own thing. About 10% of the day we work on something together. Yesterday we went to the park and my kids and a friend each were asked to select an object to bring home. When we got home I asked the kids to write about one of the three objects. I suggested they could write poetry, a short story or stream of consciousness. Then they switched to the next persons object and wrote again. They wrote beautiful things. They really enjoyed the lesson and felt really proud of what they created. I'm trying to make a combination of home schooling and some directed (not arm twisted) learning.
Jeanne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"What a lot of us here have found, is you don't need either the passive/do nothing or the disciplinarian approach. There is a middle ground. One where children ARE treated with equal respect as adults, but where the parent also cares about themselves and is capable of setting healthy boundaries."
Great! How do I do that?
"Could you clarify something for us? You talked about writing lessons...are you learning about unschooling and still doing school at home, or have you just recently stopped doing lessons? If you're still forcing lessons, try unschooling! That will resolve some of the power struggle and conflicts right there."
Well, I'm not sure what you would call what I'm doing. 90% of the day is letting the kids do their own thing. About 10% of the day we work on something together. Yesterday we went to the park and my kids and a friend each were asked to select an object to bring home. When we got home I asked the kids to write about one of the three objects. I suggested they could write poetry, a short story or stream of consciousness. Then they switched to the next persons object and wrote again. They wrote beautiful things. They really enjoyed the lesson and felt really proud of what they created. I'm trying to make a combination of home schooling and some directed (not arm twisted) learning.
Jeanne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
earthmothergypsy
> What a lot of us here have found, is you don't need either thepassive/do nothing or the disciplinarian approach. There is a middle
ground. One where children ARE treated with equal respect as adults,
but where the parent also cares about themselves and is capable of
setting healthy boundaries. Boundaries like not letting anyone harm
you physically or mentally, boundaries that make sense and are not
based on some arbitrary "shoulds".<
This is it! This is what I have been trying to wrap my head around
and couldn't get it all figured out. lol! There have to be
boundaries for things that are dangerous (or even
disruptive/disrespectful to others) but basically freedom to learn
and explore. I've been trying to get my mom to understand this for
awhile and not sure I will ever manage it. lol.
The problem I am having is that when I REALLY need a child to listen
(I am speaking of my 6 yr old dd) she doesn't. She is very head
strong and strong willed. I am talking about listening and doing as
told in a dangerous situation. Example: When she is told to come
right now to me or to the house and she stands and ignores me, goes
on about her business--but the reason she is being told to move in
haste is because a BEAR is in the yard!!!!!! Things like this. How
do I get her to respect my wishes/mind/listen to me in times like
this? It is only times like these of importance that I would even
expect her to jump and move.
How do I teach her this??? I have tried explaining it to her,
talking to her about it and she just blows us off. What can I do?
What am I doing wrong? HELP!!!! :)
Thanks for all the input!
~Amanda
ALSO: Wouldn't ignoring a request by someone also be considered
disrespectful? If we ignored our kid's needs and requests they would
feel it as disrespectful. IYKWIM. Isn't it the same in reverse?
How do we teach them this? Or is it something that is just learned
in time?
Dana Matt
Example: When she is
with fear in my voice....But perhaps "A BEAR!" might
be better use of your voice then "Come right now to
the house, child..." or whatever, lol....
Perhaps there have just been too many requests that
weren't important, so now she tunes you out? You're
the little mom who cried wolf? We were out hiking the
other day and I almost stepped on a rattlesnake, and I
said "STOP!", and everyone around me stopped stock
still. It was probably the only thing I *told* my
family members to do all day, so it must have been
important.
Dana
in Montana
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> told to comeI can't imagine a kid or anyone ignoring a request
> right now to me or to the house and she stands and
> ignores me, goes
> on about her business--but the reason she is being
> told to move in
> haste is because a BEAR is in the yard!!!!!! Things
> like this.
with fear in my voice....But perhaps "A BEAR!" might
be better use of your voice then "Come right now to
the house, child..." or whatever, lol....
Perhaps there have just been too many requests that
weren't important, so now she tunes you out? You're
the little mom who cried wolf? We were out hiking the
other day and I almost stepped on a rattlesnake, and I
said "STOP!", and everyone around me stopped stock
still. It was probably the only thing I *told* my
family members to do all day, so it must have been
important.
Dana
in Montana
>__________________________________
>
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earthmothergypsy
Dana,
lol!!! If I said/yelled "BEAR" she would turn, look at it and watch
it instead of getting to safety. This is a child that has tamed the
squirls around our place. Feeds them in her lap and all. :)
" Perhaps there have just been too many requests that weren't
important, so now she tunes you out? You're the little mom who cried
wolf?"
No, not at all. That is why I can't understand why she is like this.
She has always had the freedom to go and do (though I do have her let
me know when she goes outside to play so I know where she is because
of the wildlife all around us-she totally understood this and always
lets us know before heading out to play.) Hmmmm....so maybe I need
to sit down and present this situation to her again. Maybe I didn't
present it to her in a way she understood before. It has been good
to type this out. It has helped me see what I need to do. :)
Thanks!
~Amanda
lol!!! If I said/yelled "BEAR" she would turn, look at it and watch
it instead of getting to safety. This is a child that has tamed the
squirls around our place. Feeds them in her lap and all. :)
" Perhaps there have just been too many requests that weren't
important, so now she tunes you out? You're the little mom who cried
wolf?"
No, not at all. That is why I can't understand why she is like this.
She has always had the freedom to go and do (though I do have her let
me know when she goes outside to play so I know where she is because
of the wildlife all around us-she totally understood this and always
lets us know before heading out to play.) Hmmmm....so maybe I need
to sit down and present this situation to her again. Maybe I didn't
present it to her in a way she understood before. It has been good
to type this out. It has helped me see what I need to do. :)
Thanks!
~Amanda
Robyn Coburn
<<<Yesterday we went to the park and my kids and a friend each were asked to
select an object to bring home. When we got home I asked the kids to write
about one of the three objects. I suggested they could write poetry, a short
story or stream of consciousness. Then they switched to the next persons
object and wrote again. They wrote beautiful things. They really enjoyed the
lesson and felt really proud of what they created. I'm trying to make a
combination of home schooling and some directed (not arm twisted)
learning.>>>
I would label this "Eclectic/Relaxed" Homeschooling since you were
wondering.
What happens if your kids say, "I don't feel like it"? Or the time comes
when you think what they wrote is not "beautiful"?
Robyn L. Coburn
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select an object to bring home. When we got home I asked the kids to write
about one of the three objects. I suggested they could write poetry, a short
story or stream of consciousness. Then they switched to the next persons
object and wrote again. They wrote beautiful things. They really enjoyed the
lesson and felt really proud of what they created. I'm trying to make a
combination of home schooling and some directed (not arm twisted)
learning.>>>
I would label this "Eclectic/Relaxed" Homeschooling since you were
wondering.
What happens if your kids say, "I don't feel like it"? Or the time comes
when you think what they wrote is not "beautiful"?
Robyn L. Coburn
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Ren
"They really enjoyed the lesson and felt really
proud of what they created. I'm trying to make a combination of home schooling
and some directed (not arm twisted) learning."
And maybe that will be as far as you want to go into natural learning...but a lot of us here will tell you to keep going!:)
Once you trust that a child will learn what they need for their unique journey, you won't see directed lessons of any kind as necessary.
I believe any kind of lesson at a young age, unless initiated completely by the learner (ie: karate, music lessons etc...) inhibits natural learning and the trust of the child in their inherent ability to learn.
They might always enjoy the lessons, but you might be robbing them of the joy of accomplishing something in their own time and way. I have readers that didn't need lessons...ever. I have children learning math concepts by living. They learn a lot of things I never even thought to "teach" them, because they're interested in life and learning, even at 14 years of age.
Unschooling is all about trust. Trusting ourselves, trusting our children. Lessons imply a lack of trust.
When a child has a real life reason to write, they will. Compelling them to write about a pleasant outing, could quickly lead to resentment. It could explain some of the other struggles you described.
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
proud of what they created. I'm trying to make a combination of home schooling
and some directed (not arm twisted) learning."
And maybe that will be as far as you want to go into natural learning...but a lot of us here will tell you to keep going!:)
Once you trust that a child will learn what they need for their unique journey, you won't see directed lessons of any kind as necessary.
I believe any kind of lesson at a young age, unless initiated completely by the learner (ie: karate, music lessons etc...) inhibits natural learning and the trust of the child in their inherent ability to learn.
They might always enjoy the lessons, but you might be robbing them of the joy of accomplishing something in their own time and way. I have readers that didn't need lessons...ever. I have children learning math concepts by living. They learn a lot of things I never even thought to "teach" them, because they're interested in life and learning, even at 14 years of age.
Unschooling is all about trust. Trusting ourselves, trusting our children. Lessons imply a lack of trust.
When a child has a real life reason to write, they will. Compelling them to write about a pleasant outing, could quickly lead to resentment. It could explain some of the other struggles you described.
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
earthmothergypsy
<"Compelling them to write about a pleasant outing, could quickly
lead to resentment."> > Ren
This could also lead to them not want to go on outings because they
KNOW there will be work expected following the "fun outing". It is
best (imo) to just relax and let them enjoy and know that they are
learning. All one has to do is sit back and watch the children (no
matter what age) to see that they are learning (all the time I may
add). It might be worth the time to do just that for awhile. Sit
and watch them so you can really see what learning is like when it is
left in the hands of the child. It is an awesome sight!
~Amanda
lead to resentment."> > Ren
This could also lead to them not want to go on outings because they
KNOW there will be work expected following the "fun outing". It is
best (imo) to just relax and let them enjoy and know that they are
learning. All one has to do is sit back and watch the children (no
matter what age) to see that they are learning (all the time I may
add). It might be worth the time to do just that for awhile. Sit
and watch them so you can really see what learning is like when it is
left in the hands of the child. It is an awesome sight!
~Amanda
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/2004 8:40:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
When a child has a real life reason to write, they will. Compelling them to
write about a pleasant outing, could quickly lead to resentment.
<<<<<<<
Resentment of BOTH the outing and the writing! Which could eventually lead
to no desire to do either.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
When a child has a real life reason to write, they will. Compelling them to
write about a pleasant outing, could quickly lead to resentment.
<<<<<<<
Resentment of BOTH the outing and the writing! Which could eventually lead
to no desire to do either.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jeanne Goodman
<I would label this "Eclectic/Relaxed" Homeschooling since you were
wondering.>
I was, thank you. I kinda like that.
<What happens if your kids say, "I don't feel like it"? Or the time comes
when you think what they wrote is not "beautiful"? >
That's a good question. They haven't said that yet. I'd probably ask them to
indulge me, remind them how much fun they had with previous exercises. I
think primarily since I'm trying to move away from my authoritarian side,
they don't really see that they have a choice -- and in all honesty I don't
think I imagined they had a choice until this very minute.
As for not thinking what they wrote is beautiful -- I don't think MY
children could write anything that wasn't beautiful. But in all honesty I
think that nearly anything that is written to be creative has some beauty to
it, don't you?
Jeanne
wondering.>
I was, thank you. I kinda like that.
<What happens if your kids say, "I don't feel like it"? Or the time comes
when you think what they wrote is not "beautiful"? >
That's a good question. They haven't said that yet. I'd probably ask them to
indulge me, remind them how much fun they had with previous exercises. I
think primarily since I'm trying to move away from my authoritarian side,
they don't really see that they have a choice -- and in all honesty I don't
think I imagined they had a choice until this very minute.
As for not thinking what they wrote is beautiful -- I don't think MY
children could write anything that wasn't beautiful. But in all honesty I
think that nearly anything that is written to be creative has some beauty to
it, don't you?
Jeanne
Jeanne Goodman
<"Compelling them to write about a pleasant outing, could quickly
lead to resentment."> > Ren
<This could also lead to them not want to go on outings because they
KNOW there will be work expected following the "fun outing".> ~Amanda
Ok then what about this Mr. B and I are planning a train trip to Florida in a few weeks. I asked him if he would be interested in turning it into a fun learning opportunity by getting trip-tiks and following the trip on a map. Am I ruining the experience by suggesting this?
Jeanne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lead to resentment."> > Ren
<This could also lead to them not want to go on outings because they
KNOW there will be work expected following the "fun outing".> ~Amanda
Ok then what about this Mr. B and I are planning a train trip to Florida in a few weeks. I asked him if he would be interested in turning it into a fun learning opportunity by getting trip-tiks and following the trip on a map. Am I ruining the experience by suggesting this?
Jeanne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/2004 10:45:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
goodmanj@... writes:
I asked him if he would be interested in turning it into a fun learning
opportunity by getting trip-tiks and following the trip on a map.<<<<<<
How about, "Would getting trip-tiks and following it on a map be fun? I'd be
happy to set it up for you if you're interested. Or not."
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
goodmanj@... writes:
I asked him if he would be interested in turning it into a fun learning
opportunity by getting trip-tiks and following the trip on a map.<<<<<<
How about, "Would getting trip-tiks and following it on a map be fun? I'd be
happy to set it up for you if you're interested. Or not."
>>>>Am I ruining the experience by suggesting this?<<<Maybe. Can he say no?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/2004 9:45:47 PM Central Daylight Time,
goodmanj@... writes:
Ok then what about this Mr. B and I are planning a train trip to Florida in
a few weeks. I asked him if he would be interested in turning it into a fun
learning opportunity by getting trip-tiks and following the trip on a map. Am
I ruining the experience by suggesting this?
I wonder if this falls into the catagory of strewing? Placing "stuff" that
might interest a child in their path. What about putting out a camera or
camcorder? See if he picks up on the idea of using it for his trip, or maybe
mention since he doesn't want to write about it if there is any other way he'd
like to remember it or share his experiance with others.
I"m thinking way too much tonight.
syndi (ps...i think the map idea is cool! if he doesn't want to do that,
maybe you could, he might see how neat it would be after watching mom do it)
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
goodmanj@... writes:
Ok then what about this Mr. B and I are planning a train trip to Florida in
a few weeks. I asked him if he would be interested in turning it into a fun
learning opportunity by getting trip-tiks and following the trip on a map. Am
I ruining the experience by suggesting this?
I wonder if this falls into the catagory of strewing? Placing "stuff" that
might interest a child in their path. What about putting out a camera or
camcorder? See if he picks up on the idea of using it for his trip, or maybe
mention since he doesn't want to write about it if there is any other way he'd
like to remember it or share his experiance with others.
I"m thinking way too much tonight.
syndi (ps...i think the map idea is cool! if he doesn't want to do that,
maybe you could, he might see how neat it would be after watching mom do it)
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/2004 9:45:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
goodmanj@... writes:
As for not thinking what they wrote is beautiful -- I don't think MY
children could write anything that wasn't beautiful. But in all honesty I
think that nearly anything that is written to be creative has some beauty to
it, don't you?
Jeanne--Don't forget there are LOTS of different ways to be creative, maybe
their ideas are just alittle different from yours?
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
goodmanj@... writes:
As for not thinking what they wrote is beautiful -- I don't think MY
children could write anything that wasn't beautiful. But in all honesty I
think that nearly anything that is written to be creative has some beauty to
it, don't you?
Jeanne--Don't forget there are LOTS of different ways to be creative, maybe
their ideas are just alittle different from yours?
"...since we can't know what knowledge will be most needed in the future, it
is senseless to try to teach it in advance. Instead, we should try to turn
out people who love learning so much and learn so well that they will be able
to learn whatever needs to be learned."
-- _John Holt_ (http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=John+Holt)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dana Matt
> Ok then what about this Mr. B and I are planning aHow about make the same suggestion but leave out the
> train trip to Florida in a few weeks. I asked him if
> he would be interested in turning it into a fun
> learning opportunity by getting trip-tiks and
> following the trip on a map. Am I ruining the
> experience by suggesting this?
>
> Jeanne
>
line about "fun learning experience"...Hey, Mr. B,
want to help me plan how we're getting to Florida?
And then take his answer, yes or no, at face value.
OR, it could be more fun to just talk about taking a
trip to Florida and having him suggest the map. I've
stopped at gas stations many times to buy maps because
the kids suddenly wanted to know where we were....
Dana
in Montana
(who has a secret stash of every state in the
west/midwest hidden in the car--you know I do--but
it's always more fun to stop and buy a new one ;)
__________________________________
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Jeanne Goodman
RE: Trip-tiks for a voyage.
Yes. I'm pretty sure I made this point clear to him. I'll follow the trip on the tiks myself and if he wants to join along or take over he can. What do you think? Jeanne in MA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>Am I ruining the experience by suggesting this?<<<"Maybe. Can he say no? ~Kelly"
Yes. I'm pretty sure I made this point clear to him. I'll follow the trip on the tiks myself and if he wants to join along or take over he can. What do you think? Jeanne in MA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Geneva Goza
Wow - where do you live. What kind of wildlife? Sounds awesome!!
me :)
No, not at all. That is why I can't understand why she is like this.
She has always had the freedom to go and do (though I do have her let
me know when she goes outside to play so I know where she is because
of the wildlife all around us-she totally understood this and always
lets us know before heading out to play.) Hmmmm....so maybe I need
to sit down and present this situation to her again. Maybe I didn't
present it to her in a way she understood before. It has been good
to type this out. It has helped me see what I need to do. :)
Thanks!
~Amanda
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
me :)
No, not at all. That is why I can't understand why she is like this.
She has always had the freedom to go and do (though I do have her let
me know when she goes outside to play so I know where she is because
of the wildlife all around us-she totally understood this and always
lets us know before heading out to play.) Hmmmm....so maybe I need
to sit down and present this situation to her again. Maybe I didn't
present it to her in a way she understood before. It has been good
to type this out. It has helped me see what I need to do. :)
Thanks!
~Amanda
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/8/2004 11:32:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
goodmanj@... writes:
Yes. I'm pretty sure I made this point clear to him. I'll follow the trip on
the tiks myself and if he wants to join along or take over he can. What do
you think? Jeanne in MA
<<<<
But if he's used to thinking that he "has" to go along with whatever
educational idea mom comes up with, he might not feel as if he can honestly say no.
Maybe trip-tiks would be fun for YOU? <g> If you're having fun with it,
maybe both children will find it fun as well.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
goodmanj@... writes:
>>>>Am I ruining the experience by suggesting this?<<<"Maybe. Can he say no? ~Kelly"
Yes. I'm pretty sure I made this point clear to him. I'll follow the trip on
the tiks myself and if he wants to join along or take over he can. What do
you think? Jeanne in MA
<<<<
But if he's used to thinking that he "has" to go along with whatever
educational idea mom comes up with, he might not feel as if he can honestly say no.
Maybe trip-tiks would be fun for YOU? <g> If you're having fun with it,
maybe both children will find it fun as well.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<Ok then what about this Mr. B and I are planning a train trip to Florida
in a few weeks. I asked him if he would be interested in turning it into a
fun learning opportunity by getting trip-tiks and following the trip on a
map. Am I ruining the experience by suggesting this?>>>
Do you think that he would never learn anything unless you were structuring
events as learning opportunities?
Not ruining the experience, just changing it so that it may well be less
than it could be. You could be risking ruining it. Does he have an interest
in maps?
Robyn L. Coburn
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in a few weeks. I asked him if he would be interested in turning it into a
fun learning opportunity by getting trip-tiks and following the trip on a
map. Am I ruining the experience by suggesting this?>>>
Do you think that he would never learn anything unless you were structuring
events as learning opportunities?
Not ruining the experience, just changing it so that it may well be less
than it could be. You could be risking ruining it. Does he have an interest
in maps?
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.717 / Virus Database: 473 - Release Date: 7/8/2004
Fetteroll
on 7/8/04 10:23 PM, Jeanne Goodman at goodmanj@... wrote:
saying it -- is that maps are learning and learning is boring so I need
convince you it's fun so you'll do it and learn something.
Just get the trip tik and show him how they work, the way you might to an
adult who'd never seen one. They're practical. They're useful. They're a
tool, like a hammer. Don't presuppose he'll think it's boring. If you do it
has the potential to be self fulfilling! He'll look at it with suspicion,
like this is just the candy coating and the bitter pill will pop out any
moment.
Joyce
> Ok then what about this Mr. B and I are planning a train trip to Florida in aWhat I see you communicating by approaching it this way -- without actually
> few weeks. I asked him if he would be interested in turning it into a fun
> learning opportunity by getting trip-tiks and following the trip on a map. Am
> I ruining the experience by suggesting this?
saying it -- is that maps are learning and learning is boring so I need
convince you it's fun so you'll do it and learn something.
Just get the trip tik and show him how they work, the way you might to an
adult who'd never seen one. They're practical. They're useful. They're a
tool, like a hammer. Don't presuppose he'll think it's boring. If you do it
has the potential to be self fulfilling! He'll look at it with suspicion,
like this is just the candy coating and the bitter pill will pop out any
moment.
Joyce
earthmothergypsy
> Ok then what about this Mr. B and I are planning a train trip toFlorida in a few weeks. I asked him if he would be interested in
turning it into a fun learning opportunity by getting trip-tiks and
following the trip on a map. Am I ruining the experience by
suggesting this? > Jeanne
No you aren't ruining anything by suggesting this because it is only
a "suggestion" -which means there is a choice in it. It can be
chosen to do it the way you suggested, a way Mr B suggests, or
neither. It isn't mandentory. There are choices.
By forcing a child to do something (I am talking schoolwork wise),
like writing a report about what they did on a fun outing will soon
end with them not wanting to go on the fun outings if they don't want
to do the writing, or painting or singing or whatever is demanded
that takes away from the "just having fun". That was all I meant. I
have seen it happen. Activities that kids really enjoyed when made
into work later, became a lost activity for the kids.
It is hard to let go and trust. It isn't how we ps taught moms were
programed. :) But it can be accomplished. Provide writing journals
for each of them to use if they wish or not. Provide the tools and
they will use them. I promise you it will not be in the way we had
preplanned in out minds, but in the way THEY see it planned in their
minds-which is really what we want anyway. Kids see things totally
different from us and from each other for that matter. I think it is
important to let them do it their way, using their own creativity and
imaginations (and keeping our ideas and opinions out of it).
Imitation is a way kids learn, so besides having the tools there (ie
writing journals) you too should have one and be the first to sit
down where they can see you, watch you, and imitate you and write in
your journal. :) Won't be long and the kids that are interested
will be sitting there writing in their journals too. For the ones
that don't (or even if none of them have an interest) keep on
writing. It may take time for them to decide they want to write and
like seeing you read a lot, they will pick up the same habit if it is
an interest. If it isn't an interest they have, then if you watch,
you will notice what their real interst is and can bask in the joy of
knowing they have a different individual interest, even if it is
different than you wanted. I hope some of that made sense. lol!
Provide the tools, let them see you following your interests, and
trust that they will do the same. You may have writers, artists, or
musicians. They will let you know what they need to persue their
path of interest if you give them the chance. :)
~Amanda
earthmothergypsy
We are in northern Minnesota and our home literally sits in the
middle of the national forest, so we get wildlife around us all the
time. It is really wonderful and a great place to homeschool.
~Amanda
--- In [email protected], "Geneva Goza" <goza@m...>
wrote:
middle of the national forest, so we get wildlife around us all the
time. It is really wonderful and a great place to homeschool.
~Amanda
--- In [email protected], "Geneva Goza" <goza@m...>
wrote:
> Wow - where do you live. What kind of wildlife? Sounds awesome!!this.
> me :)
>
>
>
> No, not at all. That is why I can't understand why she is like
> She has always had the freedom to go and do (though I do have herlet
> me know when she goes outside to play so I know where she isbecause
> of the wildlife all around us-she totally understood this andalways
> lets us know before heading out to play.) Hmmmm....so maybe Ineed
> to sit down and present this situation to her again. Maybe Ididn't
> present it to her in a way she understood before. It has beengood
> to type this out. It has helped me see what I need to do. :)----------
>
> Thanks!
> ~Amanda
>
>
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[email protected]
In a message dated 7/9/2004 8:53:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
earthmothergypsy@... writes:
Imitation is a way kids learn, so besides having the tools there (ie
writing journals) you too should have one and be the first to sit
down where they can see you, watch you, and imitate you and write in
your journal. :) Won't be long and the kids that are interested
will be sitting there writing in their journals too. For the ones
that don't (or even if none of them have an interest) keep on
writing. It may take time for them to decide they want to write and
like seeing you read a lot, they will pick up the same habit if it is
an interest. <<<<<
Right.
I don't journal. Ben does. Before we got married, I had a book of blank
pages bound in leather with his initials engraved on the spine. It's beautiful!
For Christmas last year, Ben made each of the boys a homemade book (We each
make something by hand for each other for Christmas---and this was HUGE for
Ben, as he thinks he's uncreative and unartistic. But he's blown us away the
last two years with what he's made for us!) for them to write/draw in.
They see him writing in his book, so it's not something that's "foreign" to
them. He takes pleasure in what he writes---and because of the love and work
that went into the books he made for them, they're doing the same. Cameron's
is lovely with a lot of drawings and thoughts. I do most of the writing in
Duncan's because it's often more than he can do by himself.
They ALL write because they WANT to. And having a beautiful book to write in
makes it even more special.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
earthmothergypsy@... writes:
Imitation is a way kids learn, so besides having the tools there (ie
writing journals) you too should have one and be the first to sit
down where they can see you, watch you, and imitate you and write in
your journal. :) Won't be long and the kids that are interested
will be sitting there writing in their journals too. For the ones
that don't (or even if none of them have an interest) keep on
writing. It may take time for them to decide they want to write and
like seeing you read a lot, they will pick up the same habit if it is
an interest. <<<<<
Right.
I don't journal. Ben does. Before we got married, I had a book of blank
pages bound in leather with his initials engraved on the spine. It's beautiful!
For Christmas last year, Ben made each of the boys a homemade book (We each
make something by hand for each other for Christmas---and this was HUGE for
Ben, as he thinks he's uncreative and unartistic. But he's blown us away the
last two years with what he's made for us!) for them to write/draw in.
They see him writing in his book, so it's not something that's "foreign" to
them. He takes pleasure in what he writes---and because of the love and work
that went into the books he made for them, they're doing the same. Cameron's
is lovely with a lot of drawings and thoughts. I do most of the writing in
Duncan's because it's often more than he can do by himself.
They ALL write because they WANT to. And having a beautiful book to write in
makes it even more special.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
earthmothergypsy
I had mentioned providing the "tools" and the kids will pick out what
they want to learn. This can be anything from instruments, to
art/craft supplies, journals, books, to paper and writing tools. It
can also be a box of tools, it can be woodcarving tools and supplies,
and workbooks for the ones that want to "play" school. It can be
bubble making tools, clay, soaps, crayons and paints, brushes, beads,
anything!!!!! They will find an interest and run with it. They will
also pick things you don't have ready and you will have to help them
find or get what they need. (This is the norm. lol!) Offer books
on different subjects, by having just laying around to be looked at
when the urge strikes the kids. Even the dreaded television can
spark an interest in a subject if you are watching the National
Geographic channel or animal shows. iykwim. ;)
My house if full of "stuff" for the kids to use as they see fit. I
have the clutter some days, but I can't seem to get rid of any of it,
because as soon as I do, someone will need something I got rid of.
lol!
~Amanda
they want to learn. This can be anything from instruments, to
art/craft supplies, journals, books, to paper and writing tools. It
can also be a box of tools, it can be woodcarving tools and supplies,
and workbooks for the ones that want to "play" school. It can be
bubble making tools, clay, soaps, crayons and paints, brushes, beads,
anything!!!!! They will find an interest and run with it. They will
also pick things you don't have ready and you will have to help them
find or get what they need. (This is the norm. lol!) Offer books
on different subjects, by having just laying around to be looked at
when the urge strikes the kids. Even the dreaded television can
spark an interest in a subject if you are watching the National
Geographic channel or animal shows. iykwim. ;)
My house if full of "stuff" for the kids to use as they see fit. I
have the clutter some days, but I can't seem to get rid of any of it,
because as soon as I do, someone will need something I got rid of.
lol!
~Amanda
Jeanne Goodman
"You could be risking ruining it. Does he have an interest in maps? -Robyn
L. Coburn"
He has a natural amazing sense of direction, that he is proud of. My goal is
to expose him to maps in a life-connected way so that he can see if he's
interested in geography and maps. If he is -- fine -- if he isn't -- fine.
But I thought it would be a fun way to pass the time, see where we are and
for all of us to learn some things at the same time.
I will take the suggestion that I'll follow the route on the map and if they
want to join in -- they will.
I'm terribly worried that this trip is going to be draining. I' ve read here
that I shouldn't interfere when my kids say "I'm bored". I'll ask them what
they want to bring for the train trip. Any suggestions of what to do if they
don't bring enough to keep themselves busy or they regret their choices?
Jeanne in MA
L. Coburn"
He has a natural amazing sense of direction, that he is proud of. My goal is
to expose him to maps in a life-connected way so that he can see if he's
interested in geography and maps. If he is -- fine -- if he isn't -- fine.
But I thought it would be a fun way to pass the time, see where we are and
for all of us to learn some things at the same time.
I will take the suggestion that I'll follow the route on the map and if they
want to join in -- they will.
I'm terribly worried that this trip is going to be draining. I' ve read here
that I shouldn't interfere when my kids say "I'm bored". I'll ask them what
they want to bring for the train trip. Any suggestions of what to do if they
don't bring enough to keep themselves busy or they regret their choices?
Jeanne in MA
Dana Matt
> I'm terribly worried that this trip is going to beJeanne, I've never been on a train, but when we go on
> draining. I' ve read here
> that I shouldn't interfere when my kids say "I'm
> bored". I'll ask them what
> they want to bring for the train trip. Any
> suggestions of what to do if they
> don't bring enough to keep themselves busy or they
> regret their choices?
>
> Jeanne in MA
a trip everyone usually brings there own backpack with
all the games, books, coloring books, journals,
cameras, crayons, markers, stickers, CD-players, maps,
gameboys, etc, that they want, and then I bring extra
stuff in case theirs gets dull (extra card games, lots
of snacks, binoculars, what have you...hey, stuff to
write on windows might be fun on a train?), and then
we have money to buy more stuff as we find it, in the
airport, at a gas station, at a store along the way.
When we just drove to Misouri, we went to Borders a
week before and got a bunch of books we've been
wanting, activity books, journals, that sort of thing,
and laid them aside for the trip so that we'd have
new, exciting stuff to occupy us. At least in a train
you can get up and run around...Usually in a car it's
the sitting still that kills us all, even though we
have a TV and VCR, and we have to stop regularly and
just get out and play :)
Dana
in MOntana
>__________________________________
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Ren
"He has a natural amazing sense of direction, that he is proud of. My goal is to expose him to maps in a life-connected way so that he can see if he's interested in geography and maps. "
It seems to me your goal is about valuing certain interests and activities over others. What if he wanted to play gameboy throughout the ride? Would that be as valuable as maps?
What everyone is saying, is not that maps and messing with them isn't a great, wonderful, fun thing to do....but it doesn't have more value than any other activity he might choose.
You said something about turning the trip into a "learning opportunity". You don't have to "turn it into" anything! It IS a learning opportunity, as is every moment of every day that you are alive and breathing. Rather than trying to turn any part of your life into lessons or learning opportunities, how about working on SEEING everything as learning and just focusing on living joyfully with your children? It's better that way.
Instead of viewing your role as teacher, try to shift to assistant, fellow explorer, world guide.:) They will learn to trust that you don't have ulterior motives when you suggest an outing, they'll learn to write from a place of joy (or not) and they'll get that wonderful gift of simply BEING who they really are.
They might not be writers. How would you know at this point?
I'm a writer. I didn't know until I was in my 30's!! And I never wrote anything amazing from an assignment, unless I gave it to myself.
Good writing comes from a place of desire to express passion, or anger or some other emotion....not from forced assignments.
Your children have never known true freedom, so it's not likely you'll know if they're being completely honest with you about your assigned activities. THEY wouldn't really know how to be honest with themselves at this point, because with limited choices, the assignments might not seem so bad.
Here's how you deschool. You are right now, today, on summer vacation. That means no assignments, no lessons, no turning anything into a "learning opportunity". Instead, YOUR assignment is to find as many lovely, funny, fun, wonderful, interesting things to do as your family would like. Amusement parks, beaches, restaraunts, parks, television, music, books, nature and anything else that sounds fun is fair game. Try to have as much FUN as possible.
Try to connect with each other on a meaningful level.
Try to find as many fun movies to watch together as you can stand.
Have conversations just because it's enjoyable. Watch the sunset just because it's beautiful. Eat new food because it excites your sense.
In short, DRINK IN LIFE! Life is short, it's a great way to live.
After at least three months of trying to ONLY have fun, no learning allowed, see how much you've all learned. If you've learned absolutely nothing, please write me, because you'll be the first.
If you've learned AND had fun as a family, you might consider living this way forever and being inducted into the unschooling tribe.:)
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
It seems to me your goal is about valuing certain interests and activities over others. What if he wanted to play gameboy throughout the ride? Would that be as valuable as maps?
What everyone is saying, is not that maps and messing with them isn't a great, wonderful, fun thing to do....but it doesn't have more value than any other activity he might choose.
You said something about turning the trip into a "learning opportunity". You don't have to "turn it into" anything! It IS a learning opportunity, as is every moment of every day that you are alive and breathing. Rather than trying to turn any part of your life into lessons or learning opportunities, how about working on SEEING everything as learning and just focusing on living joyfully with your children? It's better that way.
Instead of viewing your role as teacher, try to shift to assistant, fellow explorer, world guide.:) They will learn to trust that you don't have ulterior motives when you suggest an outing, they'll learn to write from a place of joy (or not) and they'll get that wonderful gift of simply BEING who they really are.
They might not be writers. How would you know at this point?
I'm a writer. I didn't know until I was in my 30's!! And I never wrote anything amazing from an assignment, unless I gave it to myself.
Good writing comes from a place of desire to express passion, or anger or some other emotion....not from forced assignments.
Your children have never known true freedom, so it's not likely you'll know if they're being completely honest with you about your assigned activities. THEY wouldn't really know how to be honest with themselves at this point, because with limited choices, the assignments might not seem so bad.
Here's how you deschool. You are right now, today, on summer vacation. That means no assignments, no lessons, no turning anything into a "learning opportunity". Instead, YOUR assignment is to find as many lovely, funny, fun, wonderful, interesting things to do as your family would like. Amusement parks, beaches, restaraunts, parks, television, music, books, nature and anything else that sounds fun is fair game. Try to have as much FUN as possible.
Try to connect with each other on a meaningful level.
Try to find as many fun movies to watch together as you can stand.
Have conversations just because it's enjoyable. Watch the sunset just because it's beautiful. Eat new food because it excites your sense.
In short, DRINK IN LIFE! Life is short, it's a great way to live.
After at least three months of trying to ONLY have fun, no learning allowed, see how much you've all learned. If you've learned absolutely nothing, please write me, because you'll be the first.
If you've learned AND had fun as a family, you might consider living this way forever and being inducted into the unschooling tribe.:)
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
Jeanne Goodman
<<Here's how you deschool. You are right now, today, on summer vacation. That means no assignments, no lessons, no turning anything into a "learning opportunity". Instead, YOUR assignment is to find as many lovely, funny, fun, wonderful, interesting things to do as your family would like. Amusement parks, beaches, restaurants, parks, television, music, books, nature and anything else that sounds fun is fair game. Try to have as much FUN as possible.>>
Now you've hit it on the head. It seems to me I can't suggest that we do anything -- that everything has to come from the children. If that's the case how do we *get* to the parks, beaches etc. without my suggesting it. If suggesting a park is ok then why is suggesting reading or writing or reading maps not ok? Is it because one is going somewhere different? Am I only supposed to suggest places and not activities? KWIM?
If no one had ever asked me if I wanted to learn how to knit, I never would have learned an activity I have come to enjoy very much. Did I have a choice? I don't remember. I offered to teach my son calligraphy. He didn't want to. But if I had never offered he might never have realized I was willing to share that skill and he might not have thought to ask.
Is my confusion clear <g>?
Jeanne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Now you've hit it on the head. It seems to me I can't suggest that we do anything -- that everything has to come from the children. If that's the case how do we *get* to the parks, beaches etc. without my suggesting it. If suggesting a park is ok then why is suggesting reading or writing or reading maps not ok? Is it because one is going somewhere different? Am I only supposed to suggest places and not activities? KWIM?
If no one had ever asked me if I wanted to learn how to knit, I never would have learned an activity I have come to enjoy very much. Did I have a choice? I don't remember. I offered to teach my son calligraphy. He didn't want to. But if I had never offered he might never have realized I was willing to share that skill and he might not have thought to ask.
Is my confusion clear <g>?
Jeanne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/10/2004 7:36:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
goodmanj@... writes:
If suggesting a park is ok then why is suggesting reading or writing or
reading maps not ok? Is it because one is going somewhere different? Am I only
supposed to suggest places and not activities? KWIM? <<<<<
The big difference here is that the things you're suggesting are presented
as "learning opportunities" or as educational/academic/SCHOOL-related. You need
to change your mind-set. We would say the same thing if you were suggesting
*only* museums and PBS. ALL of life is educational, not just the things that
school and a schooled society have labeled as such.
Your first step needs to be to see ALL opportunities as educational----even
Ed, Edd, and Eddy! <g>
Tell us, do you feel that reading and writing and map-reading are more
important than sowing seeds, playing video games, or teaching the dog to shake?
Because, if you were to break those last three into "educationese", you might be
very surprised at what goes into them!
The children need to know that *you* find educational value in everything
they do, not just what schools think is valuable and grade-able.
How are *you* viewing other activities?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
goodmanj@... writes:
If suggesting a park is ok then why is suggesting reading or writing or
reading maps not ok? Is it because one is going somewhere different? Am I only
supposed to suggest places and not activities? KWIM? <<<<<
The big difference here is that the things you're suggesting are presented
as "learning opportunities" or as educational/academic/SCHOOL-related. You need
to change your mind-set. We would say the same thing if you were suggesting
*only* museums and PBS. ALL of life is educational, not just the things that
school and a schooled society have labeled as such.
Your first step needs to be to see ALL opportunities as educational----even
Ed, Edd, and Eddy! <g>
Tell us, do you feel that reading and writing and map-reading are more
important than sowing seeds, playing video games, or teaching the dog to shake?
Because, if you were to break those last three into "educationese", you might be
very surprised at what goes into them!
The children need to know that *you* find educational value in everything
they do, not just what schools think is valuable and grade-able.
How are *you* viewing other activities?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 7/10/04 6:48 AM, Jeanne Goodman at goodmanj@... wrote:
Going to a park or the museum should be coming from the same mental place as
you might suggest going to a monster truck rally or going for ice cream: for
fun.
A suggestion of reading or writing or looking at maps should be coming from
the same mind set as a suggestion of watching a new cartoon or sharing your
favorite movie as a child or looking through old photo albums of you as a
child: for fun and because you'd enjoy sharing that time in that way with
them.
You're looking for rules :-) Everyone coming from school mentality does. But
many of the suggestions are to help you see the world in a new way so that
you're not thinking in terms of "This is important. How can I get them to do
it?"
When you feel like suggesting something, ask yourself if you'd be asking
them in the same way as you'd ask if they'd like to go to a movie at the
cheap theater. And ask yourself if you'd feel the same way to a "no thanks"
answer to your suggestion as you would to the movie.
Ideally you want to get yourself to a place where you see the world as full
of fun things to explore rather than a place where there are things kids
must learn. The world won't change with your mental shift. :-) The kids
learning won't change. They'll still be learning what they think is
interesting and ignoring what isn't. But it will change your attitude and
help you help them explore better.
Joyce
> If suggesting a park is ok then why is suggesting reading or writing orThe difference is why you're suggesting something.
> reading maps not ok?
Going to a park or the museum should be coming from the same mental place as
you might suggest going to a monster truck rally or going for ice cream: for
fun.
A suggestion of reading or writing or looking at maps should be coming from
the same mind set as a suggestion of watching a new cartoon or sharing your
favorite movie as a child or looking through old photo albums of you as a
child: for fun and because you'd enjoy sharing that time in that way with
them.
You're looking for rules :-) Everyone coming from school mentality does. But
many of the suggestions are to help you see the world in a new way so that
you're not thinking in terms of "This is important. How can I get them to do
it?"
When you feel like suggesting something, ask yourself if you'd be asking
them in the same way as you'd ask if they'd like to go to a movie at the
cheap theater. And ask yourself if you'd feel the same way to a "no thanks"
answer to your suggestion as you would to the movie.
Ideally you want to get yourself to a place where you see the world as full
of fun things to explore rather than a place where there are things kids
must learn. The world won't change with your mental shift. :-) The kids
learning won't change. They'll still be learning what they think is
interesting and ignoring what isn't. But it will change your attitude and
help you help them explore better.
Joyce