intro and request for help with husband
Marcella O'Brien
I have been basically unschooling up to this point, except a few months of me pushing a little schoolwork with my older son, Sean (age 9). The pushing (along with traditional parenting methods of time out and such) resulted in a crisis situation where Sean started getting depressed, was violent towards us, and considered himself stupid. I convinced my husband that we should back off all expectations, academic and otherwise, to give Sean time to heal. It was just what was needed and Sean is now a happy, much more peaceful person. We have switched to a peaceful, unconditional parenting approach, which my husband supports. But he is not supportive of the academic part of unschooling. I think it's the label or term that he is most uncomfortable with. Chris is growing concerned because Sean does not write, is very shy and is reluctant to try new things. I don't agree with these concerns (they are true, by I don't see them as concerns), and instead see all the wonderful things Sean knows and does. It seems like we're at a crossroads because Chris wants us to push academics more. He makes all the usual false arguments (I've had to do things I don't like in life, but it's helped me get where I am... People can't just do what they want all day long.) and doesn't agree with my answers. I've asked him to read books and articles, but he says everyone sounds too radical for him. He seems to prefer research-based data to anecdotes about other children. Plus, he's said that even if it's best for Sean that doesn't mean it's best for Jack (5) because Jack is less resistant to teaching and seems to like hearing * Good job * in tennis lessons and such. Now he's suggesting that we consider all academic options for the boys based on their individual needs. I have spent the most time with the boys and have done all the reading on approaches and find unschooling to the best fit for all of us. Chris wants me to sell it to him. He asked me to pretend I'm a teacher at a school and should explain why unschooling would be best for each child. I don't know where to begin!! I've been telling him all along why it's best and all the benefits I see in the boys. The boys are happy and creative, good problem solvers, and know tons of stuff the kids I taught didn't know. (I previously taught 5th grade in ps) Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this?? Thanks for any suggestions!
~Marcella in VA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~Marcella in VA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
** Now he's suggesting that we consider all
academic options for the boys based on their individual needs. I have
spent the
most time with the boys and have done all the reading on approaches
and find
unschooling to the best fit for all of us. Chris wants me to sell it
to him.
He asked me to pretend I'm a teacher at a school and should explain why
unschooling would be best for each child. I don't know where to begin!! **
Hi, Marcella --
I've read quite a bit about unschooling, and I don't think there is
academic research that proves unschooling works. (But I encourage
everyone else reading to correct me if they know of some sources.)
I would recommend Alfie Kohn's writings as an interesting starting
point. He's got many well-researched and enlightened-sounding
articles on his website. (You should be able to google his whole
name.) I've read some, but not nearly all of them.
I also want to mention a couple of his books. He wrote one called
_The Schools Our Children Deserve_. What this book has is an appendix
(A?) that summarizes research about learning that fits with what he is
talking about in his book. The book AND the research both make the
point that what's best for children is individualized learning at
one's own speed (and probably not Phonics). This book is not written
BY homeschoolers or FOR homeschoolers, but it recommends types of
learning experiences that are hard to provide in a group setting in a
classroom but are much easier to provide to individual kids at home.
I have some concerns about using "good job" to get kids to work
harder. Some of these concerns are discussed in Kohn's book _Punished
by Rewards_ and others in his recent parenting book _Unconditional
Parenting_.
Kohn is speaking at a Sacramento homeschooling conference in
mid-August, so after that there should be tapes of his speeches for
sale online at www.hsc.org (Look for "conference tapes".)
I feel it is very important for parenting decisions, including those
about education, to be mutual. This is tough if one parent hasn't or
won't do background reading or won't participate in sustained
discussions. But your situation sounds better than that. Please look
for opportunities to discuss learning, education, etc. with your
husband at a time when you both are feeling calm and really have time
to delve deeply into the topic. If I was suddenly leaped into your
shoes (like the TV show Quantum Leap), I'd probably want to get your
husband talking about his experiences in school. Maybe even go year
by year and figure out how much he learned. (I myself forgot an awful
lot.) I think you really have to hear "where he is coming from" and
what his reservations are in order to marshall your arguments
successfully.
Sometimes wives ask their husbands to trust them for the first year of
homeschooling and then judge by the results at the end of the year.
It's also good to make sure that spouses don't hate their jobs and
aren't jealous of how much fun unschooling is for everyone *except*
them. Does your husband need you to make his life sweeter somehow? I
know he probably got messages growing up that "suffering builds
character", but I don't that's really true. Maybe you can convince
him? If he is embracing suffering, pour some sweetness and joy on him
and see if you can convert him to the tap-dancing, yodelling,
fingerpainting, joy-embracing side of life. <G>
Betsy
PS I also like Frank Smith a lot!
academic options for the boys based on their individual needs. I have
spent the
most time with the boys and have done all the reading on approaches
and find
unschooling to the best fit for all of us. Chris wants me to sell it
to him.
He asked me to pretend I'm a teacher at a school and should explain why
unschooling would be best for each child. I don't know where to begin!! **
Hi, Marcella --
I've read quite a bit about unschooling, and I don't think there is
academic research that proves unschooling works. (But I encourage
everyone else reading to correct me if they know of some sources.)
I would recommend Alfie Kohn's writings as an interesting starting
point. He's got many well-researched and enlightened-sounding
articles on his website. (You should be able to google his whole
name.) I've read some, but not nearly all of them.
I also want to mention a couple of his books. He wrote one called
_The Schools Our Children Deserve_. What this book has is an appendix
(A?) that summarizes research about learning that fits with what he is
talking about in his book. The book AND the research both make the
point that what's best for children is individualized learning at
one's own speed (and probably not Phonics). This book is not written
BY homeschoolers or FOR homeschoolers, but it recommends types of
learning experiences that are hard to provide in a group setting in a
classroom but are much easier to provide to individual kids at home.
I have some concerns about using "good job" to get kids to work
harder. Some of these concerns are discussed in Kohn's book _Punished
by Rewards_ and others in his recent parenting book _Unconditional
Parenting_.
Kohn is speaking at a Sacramento homeschooling conference in
mid-August, so after that there should be tapes of his speeches for
sale online at www.hsc.org (Look for "conference tapes".)
I feel it is very important for parenting decisions, including those
about education, to be mutual. This is tough if one parent hasn't or
won't do background reading or won't participate in sustained
discussions. But your situation sounds better than that. Please look
for opportunities to discuss learning, education, etc. with your
husband at a time when you both are feeling calm and really have time
to delve deeply into the topic. If I was suddenly leaped into your
shoes (like the TV show Quantum Leap), I'd probably want to get your
husband talking about his experiences in school. Maybe even go year
by year and figure out how much he learned. (I myself forgot an awful
lot.) I think you really have to hear "where he is coming from" and
what his reservations are in order to marshall your arguments
successfully.
Sometimes wives ask their husbands to trust them for the first year of
homeschooling and then judge by the results at the end of the year.
It's also good to make sure that spouses don't hate their jobs and
aren't jealous of how much fun unschooling is for everyone *except*
them. Does your husband need you to make his life sweeter somehow? I
know he probably got messages growing up that "suffering builds
character", but I don't that's really true. Maybe you can convince
him? If he is embracing suffering, pour some sweetness and joy on him
and see if you can convert him to the tap-dancing, yodelling,
fingerpainting, joy-embracing side of life. <G>
Betsy
PS I also like Frank Smith a lot!
Pamela Sorooshian
My husband has always just gone along because I convinced him to -
with the entire radical unschooling lifestyle. He never really has
understood it - but the kids seem fine, so he's fine.
I've been rereading Alfie Kohn's book, "Unconditional Parenting," and
left it in the -- you know what's coming - yes - I left it in the
bathroom. I took it out of the bathroom yesterday and last night he
was looking for it and said, "That book makes a lot of sense - very
interesting and sensible ideas." WHAT???? Nothing there that I
haven't been telling him for more than a decade.
Alfie is a guy and a dad and it doesn't hurt that he's a Harvard
professor. He critiques research, but also cites research. I think
his logical, not emotional, approach might be just what my dh needed
all these years.
-pam
with the entire radical unschooling lifestyle. He never really has
understood it - but the kids seem fine, so he's fine.
I've been rereading Alfie Kohn's book, "Unconditional Parenting," and
left it in the -- you know what's coming - yes - I left it in the
bathroom. I took it out of the bathroom yesterday and last night he
was looking for it and said, "That book makes a lot of sense - very
interesting and sensible ideas." WHAT???? Nothing there that I
haven't been telling him for more than a decade.
Alfie is a guy and a dad and it doesn't hurt that he's a Harvard
professor. He critiques research, but also cites research. I think
his logical, not emotional, approach might be just what my dh needed
all these years.
-pam
On Jul 9, 2006, at 5:15 PM, Betsy Hill wrote:
> I've read quite a bit about unschooling, and I don't think there is
> academic research that proves unschooling works. (But I encourage
> everyone else reading to correct me if they know of some sources.)
>
> I would recommend Alfie Kohn's writings as an interesting starting
> point. He's got many well-researched and enlightened-sounding
> articles on his website. (You should be able to google his whole
> name.) I've read some, but not nearly all of them.
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sheila
I am in the same boat concerning a husband who is not on-board.
Basically, I am in the unschooling lifestyle boat all by myself. The
grandparents certainly aren't into it. My husband doesn't mind too
much the academic part of the unschooling but has no interest in
learning about the total unschooling lifestyle.
He refuses to parent in an unschooling way, as do the grandparents,
who my 3 year old child sees most everyday. HELP! Dh won't read
anything on the issue and just tells me "those people are just
freaks". Hopefully, over time, he'll come onboard as he begins to
understand the hows and the whys more.
I guess there is no advice to give me, but, have others dealt with
totally resistant hubbies? Any stories to share of how/when your
hubby finally came on-board to the unschooling lifestyle?
Guess I just need some hope that this will work out, as currently,
it is causing many waves in our relationship and we can't continue
on this way.
Basically, I am in the unschooling lifestyle boat all by myself. The
grandparents certainly aren't into it. My husband doesn't mind too
much the academic part of the unschooling but has no interest in
learning about the total unschooling lifestyle.
He refuses to parent in an unschooling way, as do the grandparents,
who my 3 year old child sees most everyday. HELP! Dh won't read
anything on the issue and just tells me "those people are just
freaks". Hopefully, over time, he'll come onboard as he begins to
understand the hows and the whys more.
I guess there is no advice to give me, but, have others dealt with
totally resistant hubbies? Any stories to share of how/when your
hubby finally came on-board to the unschooling lifestyle?
Guess I just need some hope that this will work out, as currently,
it is causing many waves in our relationship and we can't continue
on this way.
Cheryl
Alfie is a guy and a dad and it doesn't hurt that he's a Harvard
professor. He critiques research, but also cites research. I think
his logical, not emotional, approach might be just what my dh needed
all these years.
-pam
*****************
In his books, yes. He's a very passionate speaker, though.
The book-in-the-bathroom thing hasn't quite worked for us. I think I need
to create a good *reading material* setting to place the books.
C
"Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed
until it is faced." James Baldwin
professor. He critiques research, but also cites research. I think
his logical, not emotional, approach might be just what my dh needed
all these years.
-pam
*****************
In his books, yes. He's a very passionate speaker, though.
The book-in-the-bathroom thing hasn't quite worked for us. I think I need
to create a good *reading material* setting to place the books.
C
"Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed
until it is faced." James Baldwin
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 10, 2006, at 4:25 AM, Cheryl wrote:
terribly earnest as some of us moms can be <G>. (Not that we don't
also like humor - I know we do - but we don't use it in our talks as
much.)
Passionate he is - but, still, I think he's appealing more to
people's logic than to trying to get them to just "feel" that this
idea of unconditional parenting is right.
almost grown SUDDENLY my dh starts reading something besides the
sports page in the bathroom! <G>
Still - if he won't read in the bathroom - he might not read a book,
anywhere. I had better luck photocopying a page and handing it to him.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Yes. And funny - which I think also appeals to dads - not quite so
> In his books, yes. He's a very passionate speaker, though.
terribly earnest as some of us moms can be <G>. (Not that we don't
also like humor - I know we do - but we don't use it in our talks as
much.)
Passionate he is - but, still, I think he's appealing more to
people's logic than to trying to get them to just "feel" that this
idea of unconditional parenting is right.
>It never worked for us either - so, yeah, now that our kids are
> The book-in-the-bathroom thing hasn't quite worked for us. I think
> I need
> to create a good *reading material* setting to place the books.
almost grown SUDDENLY my dh starts reading something besides the
sports page in the bathroom! <G>
Still - if he won't read in the bathroom - he might not read a book,
anywhere. I had better luck photocopying a page and handing it to him.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 9, 2006, at 9:28 PM, Sheila wrote:
so vibrant and energized and interesting. AND they are sweet and
polite and kind and considerate.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Dh won't readI wish he could meet the unschooled teens and young adults. They are
> anything on the issue and just tells me "those people are just
> freaks". Hopefully, over time, he'll come onboard as he begins to
> understand the hows and the whys more.
so vibrant and energized and interesting. AND they are sweet and
polite and kind and considerate.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Marcella O'Brien <marcellao@...>
Plus,
he's said that even if it's best for Sean that doesn't mean it's best
for Jack
(5) because Jack is less resistant to teaching and seems to like
hearing * Good
job * in tennis lessons and such.
-=-=-=-
Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewarrds
-=-=-=-=-=-
Now he's suggesting that we consider all
academic options for the boys based on their individual needs.
-=-==-=-
EVERYTHING should be based on each person's individual needs.
-=-=-=-
I've asked him
to read books and articles, but he says everyone sounds too radical for
him. He
seems to prefer research-based data to anecdotes about other children.
Chris wants me to sell it to him.
He asked me to pretend I'm a teacher at a school and should explain why
unschooling would be best for each child. I don't know where to
begin!!
-=-=-=-=
You don't know where to begin, and he wants you to play teacher????
You know where I'm going, right? <BWG>
You give him his reading assignments. You make up tests for him. He
*must* know the quotes and from which book/author they're from. He has
to write book reports and do research papers. He has to look up the
stats on unschooling college students---and NO cheating!
Damn! I wish *I* had had that assignment! <G>
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
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From: Marcella O'Brien <marcellao@...>
Plus,
he's said that even if it's best for Sean that doesn't mean it's best
for Jack
(5) because Jack is less resistant to teaching and seems to like
hearing * Good
job * in tennis lessons and such.
-=-=-=-
Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewarrds
-=-=-=-=-=-
Now he's suggesting that we consider all
academic options for the boys based on their individual needs.
-=-==-=-
EVERYTHING should be based on each person's individual needs.
-=-=-=-
I've asked him
to read books and articles, but he says everyone sounds too radical for
him. He
seems to prefer research-based data to anecdotes about other children.
Chris wants me to sell it to him.
He asked me to pretend I'm a teacher at a school and should explain why
unschooling would be best for each child. I don't know where to
begin!!
-=-=-=-=
You don't know where to begin, and he wants you to play teacher????
You know where I'm going, right? <BWG>
You give him his reading assignments. You make up tests for him. He
*must* know the quotes and from which book/author they're from. He has
to write book reports and do research papers. He has to look up the
stats on unschooling college students---and NO cheating!
Damn! I wish *I* had had that assignment! <G>
~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Michelle/Melbrigða
On 7/9/06, Sheila <sahm2jakey@...> wrote:
this same uninformation? Have you brought this logic to his
attention? :-D Sorry, I just don't believe that someone is allowed
to criticize something that they haven't given any time to try to
understand first. This was one of my biggest gripes during the whole
"Tom Cruise Silent Birth" issue many months ago. People who had done
no reading about Scientology nor what a silent birth is really all
about are calling all Scientologists freaks. But if you ask them if
they have read anything about Scientology they say, "No way!"
Mmm-hmmm. And you are basing your opinion on something you know
nothing about. :-)
I hear people go off all the time about such issues as extended
breastfeeding (or breastfeeding in general), homeschooling,
attachment/gentle parenting, social issues of all sorts, but when you
sit and talk to them you realize that they have NO CLUE as to anything
about any of those subjects and are usually quoting soundbites and
anecdotal references.
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
> He refuses to parent in an unschooling way, as do the grandparents,So basically he is uninformed and basing his dislike on unschooling on
> who my 3 year old child sees most everyday. HELP! Dh won't read
> anything on the issue and just tells me "those people are just
> freaks". Hopefully, over time, he'll come onboard as he begins to
> understand the hows and the whys more.
this same uninformation? Have you brought this logic to his
attention? :-D Sorry, I just don't believe that someone is allowed
to criticize something that they haven't given any time to try to
understand first. This was one of my biggest gripes during the whole
"Tom Cruise Silent Birth" issue many months ago. People who had done
no reading about Scientology nor what a silent birth is really all
about are calling all Scientologists freaks. But if you ask them if
they have read anything about Scientology they say, "No way!"
Mmm-hmmm. And you are basing your opinion on something you know
nothing about. :-)
I hear people go off all the time about such issues as extended
breastfeeding (or breastfeeding in general), homeschooling,
attachment/gentle parenting, social issues of all sorts, but when you
sit and talk to them you realize that they have NO CLUE as to anything
about any of those subjects and are usually quoting soundbites and
anecdotal references.
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
sajmom1
Thanks, Besty!
The point about parenting decisions needing to be mutual was a good
one. I am the one with more experience and have put more years into
reading about homeschooling and unschooling, so I feel like I know
what is best. I'm sure that my husband feels that vibe from me and
feels that I'm not valuing his opinion. He is starting to read a
few articles and read a couple chapters of Frank Smith's *The Book
of Learning and Forgetting*, but he reads them defensively- like
we're all trying to push some crazy idea - and just finds things to
argue with. It seems like we're in a bit of a power struggle- I'm
arguing that the kids' should have control over their own education
and he's arguing that we need to teach them things. We watched
Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting DVD together and that made a
lot of sense to him. He is a supporter of unconditional parenting,
just not academic unschooling. I will look for the tapes of Kohn
after the conference.
Revisiting Chris's school years is also a good idea. We talked last
night- after the tension had eased up- about how he dropped his
typing class in hs because he was getting a *C* and was trying to
keep his grades up for Valedictorian (which he did get). We laughed
about how he didn't really need that class, since now he types very
well just from working with computers. So, if we can get out of
this power struggle maybe we can have some good dialogue about our
educational experiences. Thanks for the suggestions!
~Marcella
The point about parenting decisions needing to be mutual was a good
one. I am the one with more experience and have put more years into
reading about homeschooling and unschooling, so I feel like I know
what is best. I'm sure that my husband feels that vibe from me and
feels that I'm not valuing his opinion. He is starting to read a
few articles and read a couple chapters of Frank Smith's *The Book
of Learning and Forgetting*, but he reads them defensively- like
we're all trying to push some crazy idea - and just finds things to
argue with. It seems like we're in a bit of a power struggle- I'm
arguing that the kids' should have control over their own education
and he's arguing that we need to teach them things. We watched
Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting DVD together and that made a
lot of sense to him. He is a supporter of unconditional parenting,
just not academic unschooling. I will look for the tapes of Kohn
after the conference.
Revisiting Chris's school years is also a good idea. We talked last
night- after the tension had eased up- about how he dropped his
typing class in hs because he was getting a *C* and was trying to
keep his grades up for Valedictorian (which he did get). We laughed
about how he didn't really need that class, since now he types very
well just from working with computers. So, if we can get out of
this power struggle maybe we can have some good dialogue about our
educational experiences. Thanks for the suggestions!
~Marcella
sajmom1
>He
> You give him his reading assignments. You make up tests for him.
> *must* know the quotes and from which book/author they're from. Hehas
> to write book reports and do research papers. He has to look upthe
> stats on unschooling college students---and NO cheating!Although this approach would only aggravate the power struggle
>
> Damn! I wish *I* had had that assignment! <G>
>
> ~Kelly
between us I love the idea! :) Plus, it helps me see how he is stuck
in *schoolish* thinking all around!
Thanks
~Marcella
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures,email
> and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: marcellao@...
between us I love the idea! :) Plus, it helps me see how he is stuck
in *schoolish* thinking all around!
-=-=-=-=-
But he *asked* for you be a teacher, right?
You don't have to actually DO these things, but ask whether that's the
way he'd like you to present this to him.
That alone may change his mind!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
From: marcellao@...
>He
> You give him his reading assignments. You make up tests for him.
> *must* know the quotes and from which book/author they're from. Hehas
> to write book reports and do research papers. He has to look upthe
> stats on unschooling college students---and NO cheating!Although this approach would only aggravate the power struggle
>
> Damn! I wish *I* had had that assignment! <G>
>
> ~Kelly
between us I love the idea! :) Plus, it helps me see how he is stuck
in *schoolish* thinking all around!
-=-=-=-=-
But he *asked* for you be a teacher, right?
You don't have to actually DO these things, but ask whether that's the
way he'd like you to present this to him.
That alone may change his mind!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.