Unschooling as a "club"
Ren Allen
There seems to be this idea floating around (among those that aren't
unschooling, or those that don't like being questioned) that there is
some "elite" club or sheeplike mentality regarding those that choose
to adopt the unschooling lifestyle.
It cracks me up, because I know SO many unschooling families and there
is such incredible diversity within this community. I don't know
folks that are mindlessly accepting unschooling as another thing to
follow, yet I can see that it could happen.
Anyhoo, this topic came up on a local list, where someone that isn't
unschooling questioned us. I am importing this post where I answered
her, as a jumping off point for a discussion. Is unschooling just
another movement to follow for some folks? Or is it simply easier for
those that DON'T want to question their own methods, to lump us all as
a mindless/elite group???
Here's the post (the first part is the OP, the answer was from me):
~~~~~~New to the group~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"But with that said, even while reading extensively about unschooling,
what I choose to do and how I do it still needs to be unique and
individual (like when my kids are learning) otherwise the unschooling
process becomes collective and associated with a shared belief system
that in my mind makes this a religious "thinking" group.- which
referrences any other educational system ---> Is that a stretch? "
Yes, it is.
I don't think it's possible to take a philosophy that says "children
are natural learners, be respectful and trust them" and make that a
"collective"!! Pretty funny to me because all of my unschooling
friends are SO incredibly diverse.
The one thing we have in common is the fact that we believe strongly
in trusting children and the learning process, other than that, how
much I have in common varies drastically. Families that share certain
values tend to become closer for obvious reasons.
I've met people that are so scared of fitting into anything, they'll
shun a group just because it's a group. That's acting out based on
fears. If I want to learn about beekeeping, should I fear a beekeepers
club? Actually, I'd find it a useful place to learn and grow.
If I want to understand more about vegetarianism, I might attend a few
vegetarian socity potlucks or something. Any group or club has the
potential to assist my learning curve and I can use it in anyway that
suits my lifestyle. Being SO into "rebellion" or anti-group that you
discount any kind of group, is just silly to me. Use them for what you
need, forgo the rest. Unschooling isn't a club, it's just a bunch of
diverse people that agree on the idea that children learn naturally
and better without school.
Unschooling is simply a philosophy. How that philosophy plays out in
each home is SO amazingly different. In my home it is two working
parents, makeup, gardening, lotsa video gaming, hiking, traveling,
wine tasting, homemade food, big social life, environmental awareness,
writing, a Christian, a bunch of heathens and tons of art.
I have atheist, christian, mormon, catholic, jewish, pagan/wiccan and
agnostic friends within the unschooling community. I have Indian (true
Indian, not Native America), African American, caucasian and friends
of Scottish descent...probably a lot of others but I never thought to
ask. Some of them are city dwellers, some are rural, some in between
like us. There's vegetarian's, hard-core junk food eaters and
everything in between. I can't think of a single unifying thought or
idea other than the part about giving children the same respect and
freedom that adults deserve. Yep, that spills over into how we parent
them in all areas. That's not exactly a collective, brainwashing kinda
system is it?
And yes, the unschooling parents I know (and I know a LOT) give
themselves as much freedom as their children. That's one of the things
we talk a LOT about when newbies come along. How it's really, really
important for parents to be pursuing the things they love, do that
which makes their soul sing. I believe unschooling is incredibly
healing for the parents in amazing ways. We get to have the childhood
we always imagined...it's never too late.
How much thought does it take to school a child? How much knee-jerk
reaction exists with implementing a curriculum or doing lessons
because it's comfortable?
To really trust and get comfortable with unschooling, it takes a HUGE
amount of questioning and change. All those shifts in thinking don't
come by simply doing what everyone else does or accepting what one is
told about schooling or how children learn best.
To become an unschooling parent, you have to dig deep and question
everything you do. To insinuate that there is some "club" of
unthinking followers seems pretty amusing to me. All of the
unschooling families I know in real life have amazing and deep ways of
viewing the world and questioning just about EVERYTHING. They
constantly help me learn and question MORE. It's very cool that way.~
unschooling, or those that don't like being questioned) that there is
some "elite" club or sheeplike mentality regarding those that choose
to adopt the unschooling lifestyle.
It cracks me up, because I know SO many unschooling families and there
is such incredible diversity within this community. I don't know
folks that are mindlessly accepting unschooling as another thing to
follow, yet I can see that it could happen.
Anyhoo, this topic came up on a local list, where someone that isn't
unschooling questioned us. I am importing this post where I answered
her, as a jumping off point for a discussion. Is unschooling just
another movement to follow for some folks? Or is it simply easier for
those that DON'T want to question their own methods, to lump us all as
a mindless/elite group???
Here's the post (the first part is the OP, the answer was from me):
~~~~~~New to the group~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"But with that said, even while reading extensively about unschooling,
what I choose to do and how I do it still needs to be unique and
individual (like when my kids are learning) otherwise the unschooling
process becomes collective and associated with a shared belief system
that in my mind makes this a religious "thinking" group.- which
referrences any other educational system ---> Is that a stretch? "
Yes, it is.
I don't think it's possible to take a philosophy that says "children
are natural learners, be respectful and trust them" and make that a
"collective"!! Pretty funny to me because all of my unschooling
friends are SO incredibly diverse.
The one thing we have in common is the fact that we believe strongly
in trusting children and the learning process, other than that, how
much I have in common varies drastically. Families that share certain
values tend to become closer for obvious reasons.
I've met people that are so scared of fitting into anything, they'll
shun a group just because it's a group. That's acting out based on
fears. If I want to learn about beekeeping, should I fear a beekeepers
club? Actually, I'd find it a useful place to learn and grow.
If I want to understand more about vegetarianism, I might attend a few
vegetarian socity potlucks or something. Any group or club has the
potential to assist my learning curve and I can use it in anyway that
suits my lifestyle. Being SO into "rebellion" or anti-group that you
discount any kind of group, is just silly to me. Use them for what you
need, forgo the rest. Unschooling isn't a club, it's just a bunch of
diverse people that agree on the idea that children learn naturally
and better without school.
Unschooling is simply a philosophy. How that philosophy plays out in
each home is SO amazingly different. In my home it is two working
parents, makeup, gardening, lotsa video gaming, hiking, traveling,
wine tasting, homemade food, big social life, environmental awareness,
writing, a Christian, a bunch of heathens and tons of art.
I have atheist, christian, mormon, catholic, jewish, pagan/wiccan and
agnostic friends within the unschooling community. I have Indian (true
Indian, not Native America), African American, caucasian and friends
of Scottish descent...probably a lot of others but I never thought to
ask. Some of them are city dwellers, some are rural, some in between
like us. There's vegetarian's, hard-core junk food eaters and
everything in between. I can't think of a single unifying thought or
idea other than the part about giving children the same respect and
freedom that adults deserve. Yep, that spills over into how we parent
them in all areas. That's not exactly a collective, brainwashing kinda
system is it?
And yes, the unschooling parents I know (and I know a LOT) give
themselves as much freedom as their children. That's one of the things
we talk a LOT about when newbies come along. How it's really, really
important for parents to be pursuing the things they love, do that
which makes their soul sing. I believe unschooling is incredibly
healing for the parents in amazing ways. We get to have the childhood
we always imagined...it's never too late.
How much thought does it take to school a child? How much knee-jerk
reaction exists with implementing a curriculum or doing lessons
because it's comfortable?
To really trust and get comfortable with unschooling, it takes a HUGE
amount of questioning and change. All those shifts in thinking don't
come by simply doing what everyone else does or accepting what one is
told about schooling or how children learn best.
To become an unschooling parent, you have to dig deep and question
everything you do. To insinuate that there is some "club" of
unthinking followers seems pretty amusing to me. All of the
unschooling families I know in real life have amazing and deep ways of
viewing the world and questioning just about EVERYTHING. They
constantly help me learn and question MORE. It's very cool that way.~
mooosey3
>I noticed when all my kids were babies that some people sort of shunned
>
> I've met people that are so scared of fitting into anything, they'll
> shun a group just because it's a group. That's acting out based on
> fears. If I want to learn about beekeeping, should I fear a beekeepers
> club? Actually, I'd find it a useful place to learn and grow.
> If I want to understand more about vegetarianism, I might attend a few
> vegetarian socity potlucks or something. Any group or club has the
> potential to assist my learning curve and I can use it in anyway that
> suits my lifestyle. Being SO into "rebellion" or anti-group that you
> discount any kind of group, is just silly to me. Use them for what you
> need, forgo the rest. Unschooling isn't a club, it's just a bunch of
> diverse people that agree on the idea that children learn naturally
> and better without school.
La Leche League. It was a group on breastfeeding support but for some
reason they thought that it was a radical vegan, crunchy, no shaving
armpits, baby wearing, attachment parenting, cosleeping, cloth
diapering, no vaxing, militant group of mamas. It was so far from
the truth. By shunning the group they missed out on valuable
information on breastfeeding and connections with other moms.
> Unschooling is simply a philosophy. How that philosophy plays out inAbsolutely!
> each home is SO amazingly different.
Heather
myeclectic.blogspot
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
It's kind of hard to get an unthinking, sheeplike group of
unschoolers because in order to get to whole life unschooling
there's a lot of questioning *required*.
One thing that might tend to be perceived like it's some sort
of 'club' is that there does tend to be a commonality in the answers
given to newcomers. But that's not because there's a "party line"
but rather because a whole array of people with different family
situations and backgrounds have thought, and pondered, and
questioned, and experienced and come to some common conclusions
about some things. And then they reached out and found other people
who had come to similar conclusions to not feel alone in the
universe.
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
to" would be "think, ask, be" and that's stuff that can't be done by
someone else for you. Unschooling can be cut up into small pieces to
make it easier to digest (say yes more, go slowly, explore your own
interests too, take a vacation, etc) but it can't be pre-digested
and then passed along and truly work as intended - the chewing and
digesting has to happen individually within each person and family.
--Deb
(Can you tell I'm hungry this afternoon? I'm looking forward to a
nice dinner out with my son, tonight's our Mom & Son date night)
unschoolers because in order to get to whole life unschooling
there's a lot of questioning *required*.
One thing that might tend to be perceived like it's some sort
of 'club' is that there does tend to be a commonality in the answers
given to newcomers. But that's not because there's a "party line"
but rather because a whole array of people with different family
situations and backgrounds have thought, and pondered, and
questioned, and experienced and come to some common conclusions
about some things. And then they reached out and found other people
who had come to similar conclusions to not feel alone in the
universe.
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> I don't knowIt would be hard, though, because the answers they'd get to the "how
> folks that are mindlessly accepting unschooling as another thing to
> follow, yet I can see that it could happen.
to" would be "think, ask, be" and that's stuff that can't be done by
someone else for you. Unschooling can be cut up into small pieces to
make it easier to digest (say yes more, go slowly, explore your own
interests too, take a vacation, etc) but it can't be pre-digested
and then passed along and truly work as intended - the chewing and
digesting has to happen individually within each person and family.
--Deb
(Can you tell I'm hungry this afternoon? I'm looking forward to a
nice dinner out with my son, tonight's our Mom & Son date night)
Vijay Owens
Unschoolers "sheeplike"??? LOL Quite the opposite.
Here is the quote that sums up the unschooling movement for me. I saw
it just recently on someone else's sig line but I forget where. It was
unattributed so of course I had to go look it up. :-)
Do not follow where the path may lead. Go, instead, where there is no
path and leave a trail. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
School takes a cookie cutter approach to teaching and managing kids.
With unschooling there are as many different approaches to living
joyfully and peacefully with kids as there are unschooled kids, because
(darn I miss italics) it's about the kids. Trust the kids. They know
what's up.
Sheep? I think it takes a tremendous amount of confidence to stand in
the face of naysayers who believe that children have to be taught, or
they won't learn. That children need to be controlled, that they will
never be able to conduct themselves in a civilized manner. That they
are lumps of clay waiting to be molded, or empty vessels waiting to be
filled.
Having the faith and the conviction to swim upstream when everyone else
is floating downstream (or is it the other way around? Are THEY the
ones who are swimming upstream, lol) is not common. It takes guts to
say, "Piffle," when people say that you need to be authoritarian and
controlling because it's for their own good.
Unschoolers question EVERYTHING. My mom sends me stuff all the time
that I KNOW isn't true. I send her to snopes.com over and over, and she
still does it. I can just imagine her thinking, "Well it must be true,
thousands of people forwarding this email over and over can't be
wrong." Oh but they can, and they usually are. And just a little
research can poke holes in just about any commonly held theory or
belief. But people are so used to swallowing things whole. Gee, maybe
from sitting there and listening to experts drone on and on about the
so-called facts?
Not sure if this is what you were getting at, but I had to laugh/snort
that there are people out there who think unschoolers are the sheep.
Unschoolers are the . . . eagles? I don't know, lol. We soar, we have
keen vision and clear perspective, we are strong and proud and rare.
Yeah, eagles!
-Vijay
Here is the quote that sums up the unschooling movement for me. I saw
it just recently on someone else's sig line but I forget where. It was
unattributed so of course I had to go look it up. :-)
Do not follow where the path may lead. Go, instead, where there is no
path and leave a trail. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
School takes a cookie cutter approach to teaching and managing kids.
With unschooling there are as many different approaches to living
joyfully and peacefully with kids as there are unschooled kids, because
(darn I miss italics) it's about the kids. Trust the kids. They know
what's up.
Sheep? I think it takes a tremendous amount of confidence to stand in
the face of naysayers who believe that children have to be taught, or
they won't learn. That children need to be controlled, that they will
never be able to conduct themselves in a civilized manner. That they
are lumps of clay waiting to be molded, or empty vessels waiting to be
filled.
Having the faith and the conviction to swim upstream when everyone else
is floating downstream (or is it the other way around? Are THEY the
ones who are swimming upstream, lol) is not common. It takes guts to
say, "Piffle," when people say that you need to be authoritarian and
controlling because it's for their own good.
Unschoolers question EVERYTHING. My mom sends me stuff all the time
that I KNOW isn't true. I send her to snopes.com over and over, and she
still does it. I can just imagine her thinking, "Well it must be true,
thousands of people forwarding this email over and over can't be
wrong." Oh but they can, and they usually are. And just a little
research can poke holes in just about any commonly held theory or
belief. But people are so used to swallowing things whole. Gee, maybe
from sitting there and listening to experts drone on and on about the
so-called facts?
Not sure if this is what you were getting at, but I had to laugh/snort
that there are people out there who think unschoolers are the sheep.
Unschoolers are the . . . eagles? I don't know, lol. We soar, we have
keen vision and clear perspective, we are strong and proud and rare.
Yeah, eagles!
-Vijay
On Jul 6, 2006, at 3:16 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
> There seems to be this idea floating around (among those that aren't
> unschooling, or those that don't like being questioned) that there is
> some "elite" club or sheeplike mentality regarding those that choose
> to adopt the unschooling lifestyle.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
--- In [email protected], Vijay Owens
<vijayowens@...> wrote:
even though I keep sending them back to her with the link to snopes.
Sometimes I'll even call her and talk her through the thought
process - there's one that keeps going around about "it's a science
project for a class in <somewhere> add your name to the list and
forward it ..." KWIM? I called my mom and said "Uh mom, how is that
data supposed to get back to whomever it was that is doing the
project?" And she said "Y'know, I wondered about that..." AHHHHHH!!!!
--Deb
<vijayowens@...> wrote:
>You too huh? My mom does the same -sometimes even the same item!-
> My mom sends me stuff all the time
> that I KNOW isn't true. I send her to snopes.com over and over,
>and >she
> still does it. I can just imagine her thinking, "Well it must be
>true,
> thousands of people forwarding this email over and over can't be
> wrong." Oh but they can, and they usually are. And just a little
> research can poke holes in just about any commonly held theory or
> belief. But people are so used to swallowing things whole. Gee,
>maybe
> from sitting there and listening to experts drone on and on about
>the
> so-called facts?
even though I keep sending them back to her with the link to snopes.
Sometimes I'll even call her and talk her through the thought
process - there's one that keeps going around about "it's a science
project for a class in <somewhere> add your name to the list and
forward it ..." KWIM? I called my mom and said "Uh mom, how is that
data supposed to get back to whomever it was that is doing the
project?" And she said "Y'know, I wondered about that..." AHHHHHH!!!!
--Deb
Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky
Darn'it!!!!!!!!!!!! I had just ordered my Unschooling Menbership Card and now you say we are not an "elite" club?
;-0
Alex
;-0
Alex
----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 2:16 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Unschooling as a "club"
There seems to be this idea floating around (among those that aren't
unschooling, or those that don't like being questioned) that there is
some "elite" club or sheeplike mentality regarding those that choose
to adopt the unschooling lifestyle.
It cracks me up, because I know SO many unschooling families and there
is such incredible diversity within this community. I don't know
folks that are mindlessly accepting unschooling as another thing to
follow, yet I can see that it could happen.
Anyhoo, this topic came up on a local list, where someone that isn't
unschooling questioned us. I am importing this post where I answered
her, as a jumping off point for a discussion. Is unschooling just
another movement to follow for some folks? Or is it simply easier for
those that DON'T want to question their own methods, to lump us all as
a mindless/elite group???
Here's the post (the first part is the OP, the answer was from me):
~~~~~~New to the group~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"But with that said, even while reading extensively about unschooling,
what I choose to do and how I do it still needs to be unique and
individual (like when my kids are learning) otherwise the unschooling
process becomes collective and associated with a shared belief system
that in my mind makes this a religious "thinking" group.- which
referrences any other educational system ---> Is that a stretch? "
Yes, it is.
I don't think it's possible to take a philosophy that says "children
are natural learners, be respectful and trust them" and make that a
"collective"!! Pretty funny to me because all of my unschooling
friends are SO incredibly diverse.
The one thing we have in common is the fact that we believe strongly
in trusting children and the learning process, other than that, how
much I have in common varies drastically. Families that share certain
values tend to become closer for obvious reasons.
I've met people that are so scared of fitting into anything, they'll
shun a group just because it's a group. That's acting out based on
fears. If I want to learn about beekeeping, should I fear a beekeepers
club? Actually, I'd find it a useful place to learn and grow.
If I want to understand more about vegetarianism, I might attend a few
vegetarian socity potlucks or something. Any group or club has the
potential to assist my learning curve and I can use it in anyway that
suits my lifestyle. Being SO into "rebellion" or anti-group that you
discount any kind of group, is just silly to me. Use them for what you
need, forgo the rest. Unschooling isn't a club, it's just a bunch of
diverse people that agree on the idea that children learn naturally
and better without school.
Unschooling is simply a philosophy. How that philosophy plays out in
each home is SO amazingly different. In my home it is two working
parents, makeup, gardening, lotsa video gaming, hiking, traveling,
wine tasting, homemade food, big social life, environmental awareness,
writing, a Christian, a bunch of heathens and tons of art.
I have atheist, christian, mormon, catholic, jewish, pagan/wiccan and
agnostic friends within the unschooling community. I have Indian (true
Indian, not Native America), African American, caucasian and friends
of Scottish descent...probably a lot of others but I never thought to
ask. Some of them are city dwellers, some are rural, some in between
like us. There's vegetarian's, hard-core junk food eaters and
everything in between. I can't think of a single unifying thought or
idea other than the part about giving children the same respect and
freedom that adults deserve. Yep, that spills over into how we parent
them in all areas. That's not exactly a collective, brainwashing kinda
system is it?
And yes, the unschooling parents I know (and I know a LOT) give
themselves as much freedom as their children. That's one of the things
we talk a LOT about when newbies come along. How it's really, really
important for parents to be pursuing the things they love, do that
which makes their soul sing. I believe unschooling is incredibly
healing for the parents in amazing ways. We get to have the childhood
we always imagined...it's never too late.
How much thought does it take to school a child? How much knee-jerk
reaction exists with implementing a curriculum or doing lessons
because it's comfortable?
To really trust and get comfortable with unschooling, it takes a HUGE
amount of questioning and change. All those shifts in thinking don't
come by simply doing what everyone else does or accepting what one is
told about schooling or how children learn best.
To become an unschooling parent, you have to dig deep and question
everything you do. To insinuate that there is some "club" of
unthinking followers seems pretty amusing to me. All of the
unschooling families I know in real life have amazing and deep ways of
viewing the world and questioning just about EVERYTHING. They
constantly help me learn and question MORE. It's very cool that way.~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vijay Owens
We should come up with a secret handshake or signal by which to
recognize other unschoolers. ;-)
Or maybe a phrase or something to say at a homeschooling event that one
person begins and then looks hopefully at the other person: if they're
an unschooling "club member" they complete the phrase and then smiles
and the secret handshake ensue.
Or if they're not "in the club" they just stare blankly, lol.
-Vijay
recognize other unschoolers. ;-)
Or maybe a phrase or something to say at a homeschooling event that one
person begins and then looks hopefully at the other person: if they're
an unschooling "club member" they complete the phrase and then smiles
and the secret handshake ensue.
Or if they're not "in the club" they just stare blankly, lol.
-Vijay
On Jul 6, 2006, at 6:49 PM, Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky wrote:
> Darn'it!!!!!!!!!!!! I had just ordered my Unschooling Menbership Card
> and now you say we are not an "elite" club?
> ;-0
>
> Alex
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
** How much thought does it take to school a child? How much knee-jerk
reaction exists with implementing a curriculum or doing lessons
because it's comfortable?
To really trust and get comfortable with unschooling, it takes a HUGE
amount of questioning and change. All those shifts in thinking don't
come by simply doing what everyone else does or accepting what one is
told about schooling or how children learn best.**
I've also been chewing on the question of whether unschooling is
elitist and dictatorial. <g>
And I think one thing that makes people uncomfortable is that we have
a lot of faith that our children's ideas and interests are right for
them. But, to some extent, we tell the adults who come here *your
ideas are harmful and should be let go off and replaced with better
ideas*. We don't tell them *Your ideas are right for you*, as we
would to our kids. And then the adults can be puzzled and disturbed
because they are not being trusted and encouraged quite the same way
that unschooled kids are. That can seem inconsistent. (But I think
the reason for that inconsistency is that the adults here have
experienced some brainwashing in school and also from our culture.)
Anyway I think that's what people are expressing when they ask things
like *why can't I just unschool my own way -- how can your ideas be
superior to mine -- why aren't my ideas just right for me?*
**All of theunschooling families I know in real life have amazing and
deep ways of
viewing the world and questioning just about EVERYTHING.**
I suspect that some people were not allowed to question their parents
as kids and that kind of insecurityof their parents can pass down to
them and make them feel that any kind of questioning shakes the
foundations of the world AND is rude. We list participants come from
a range of cultural backgrounds. (Me -- I was brought up to be lippy
and opinionated by neo-hippie parents.)
** Sheep? I think it takes a tremendous amount of confidence to stand in
the face of naysayers who believe that children have to be taught, or
they won't learn.**
Yeah. Bah! My brother was giving me that same line yesterday -- hard
to believe we HAVE the SAME parents. (end of rant!)
Betsy
reaction exists with implementing a curriculum or doing lessons
because it's comfortable?
To really trust and get comfortable with unschooling, it takes a HUGE
amount of questioning and change. All those shifts in thinking don't
come by simply doing what everyone else does or accepting what one is
told about schooling or how children learn best.**
I've also been chewing on the question of whether unschooling is
elitist and dictatorial. <g>
And I think one thing that makes people uncomfortable is that we have
a lot of faith that our children's ideas and interests are right for
them. But, to some extent, we tell the adults who come here *your
ideas are harmful and should be let go off and replaced with better
ideas*. We don't tell them *Your ideas are right for you*, as we
would to our kids. And then the adults can be puzzled and disturbed
because they are not being trusted and encouraged quite the same way
that unschooled kids are. That can seem inconsistent. (But I think
the reason for that inconsistency is that the adults here have
experienced some brainwashing in school and also from our culture.)
Anyway I think that's what people are expressing when they ask things
like *why can't I just unschool my own way -- how can your ideas be
superior to mine -- why aren't my ideas just right for me?*
**All of theunschooling families I know in real life have amazing and
deep ways of
viewing the world and questioning just about EVERYTHING.**
I suspect that some people were not allowed to question their parents
as kids and that kind of insecurityof their parents can pass down to
them and make them feel that any kind of questioning shakes the
foundations of the world AND is rude. We list participants come from
a range of cultural backgrounds. (Me -- I was brought up to be lippy
and opinionated by neo-hippie parents.)
** Sheep? I think it takes a tremendous amount of confidence to stand in
the face of naysayers who believe that children have to be taught, or
they won't learn.**
Yeah. Bah! My brother was giving me that same line yesterday -- hard
to believe we HAVE the SAME parents. (end of rant!)
Betsy
Pamela Sorooshian
We're so fervent - and we post a lot of the same things on lists,
over and over. We sound alike in email. "Trust your kids." "Support
your children's interests." "Try to say 'yes' more." And on and on.
People on email lists can't see how different we all are.
I can't imagine that anybody goes to the L&L conference, for example,
and comes away talking about unschoolers seeming like a religious
cult or being sheep-like followers or anything like that. In person,
we are obviously amazingly diverse and individual and clearly each
thinking for ourselves.
Still - the religious tone comes in because we are so sure we're
right about all this. I'm sure as can be. Absolutely certain - no
doubt in my mind. So - apparently that sometimes comes across as
thinking other people are lost and wandering around in the dark, I
suppose. I try pretty hard to accept people where they are, as they
are. I don't seek out people to try to convert them to unschooling.
I've recently complimented someone on how sweetly and happily she
uses a full curriculum with her kids - how impressed I am with how
they do it and how much joy they get from working together on it. And
I don't honestly think that unschooling is best for everyone. Truly I
don't. But, when people do want to talk about unschooling, they ask
questions or bring it up in some way, I'm going to sound a whole lot
like Joyce or Sandra or Rue or Ren or Kelly or many others, in my
responses. So be it. I can live with that <G>.
-pam
over and over. We sound alike in email. "Trust your kids." "Support
your children's interests." "Try to say 'yes' more." And on and on.
People on email lists can't see how different we all are.
I can't imagine that anybody goes to the L&L conference, for example,
and comes away talking about unschoolers seeming like a religious
cult or being sheep-like followers or anything like that. In person,
we are obviously amazingly diverse and individual and clearly each
thinking for ourselves.
Still - the religious tone comes in because we are so sure we're
right about all this. I'm sure as can be. Absolutely certain - no
doubt in my mind. So - apparently that sometimes comes across as
thinking other people are lost and wandering around in the dark, I
suppose. I try pretty hard to accept people where they are, as they
are. I don't seek out people to try to convert them to unschooling.
I've recently complimented someone on how sweetly and happily she
uses a full curriculum with her kids - how impressed I am with how
they do it and how much joy they get from working together on it. And
I don't honestly think that unschooling is best for everyone. Truly I
don't. But, when people do want to talk about unschooling, they ask
questions or bring it up in some way, I'm going to sound a whole lot
like Joyce or Sandra or Rue or Ren or Kelly or many others, in my
responses. So be it. I can live with that <G>.
-pam
On Jul 6, 2006, at 1:22 PM, Vijay Owens wrote:
> Not sure if this is what you were getting at, but I had to laugh/snort
> that there are people out there who think unschoolers are the sheep.
> Unschoolers are the . . . eagles? I don't know, lol. We soar, we have
> keen vision and clear perspective, we are strong and proud and rare.
> Yeah, eagles!
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 6, 2006, at 5:41 PM, Betsy Hill wrote:
It isn't like we never say to our kids, "That sounds like a bad idea
and here is why." I think those of us who are more blunt on the lists
are also more blunt with our own family, too.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> And I think one thing that makes people uncomfortable is that we haveDo we? <G>
> a lot of faith that our children's ideas and interests are right for
> them.
It isn't like we never say to our kids, "That sounds like a bad idea
and here is why." I think those of us who are more blunt on the lists
are also more blunt with our own family, too.
> But, to some extent, we tell the adults who come here *yourYeah - hard to hear, I'm sure.
> ideas are harmful and should be let go off and replaced with better
> ideas*.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Beth Fleming
One thing that has stuck with me for some time is something that Sandra (I think....?) wrote some time back about the bluntness of the lists. She said, in effect, that the main reason for it is that we don't have time to NOT be blunt. That each moment wasted by parents not unschooling, not trusting, is just that...wasted. And to be wishy washy about how to go about it is allowing parents to think that what they're doing is OK....we don't have as much time as the kids!
I have felt this even more recently, after my 42nd birthday...If I don't change some things now, it will be too late!
Just some thoughts.....
Peace,
Beth
Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
I have felt this even more recently, after my 42nd birthday...If I don't change some things now, it will be too late!
Just some thoughts.....
Peace,
Beth
Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
On Jul 6, 2006, at 5:41 PM, Betsy Hill wrote:
> And I think one thing that makes people uncomfortable is that we have
> a lot of faith that our children's ideas and interests are right for
> them.
Do we? <G>
It isn't like we never say to our kids, "That sounds like a bad idea
and here is why." I think those of us who are more blunt on the lists
are also more blunt with our own family, too.
> But, to some extent, we tell the adults who come here *your
> ideas are harmful and should be let go off and replaced with better
> ideas*.
Yeah - hard to hear, I'm sure.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Unschooling Mom to Frances (9), Will (7), Catherine (2), and Grace (6 months)
www.6uvus.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freepsgal
Re: the bluntness of unschooling lists sometimes... while I
understand the theory behind it, it doesn't work for everyone. I am
not the kind of person who can take blunt criticism and learn from
it. That same bluntness that helped others, turned me off of
unschooling. Twice! The only reason I'm back to unschooling is
because we've tweaked and modified through trial and error and I found
that our lifestyle was more of an unschooling one. I met another
unschooler in real life and she was so nice and patient with me that
our lifestyle just seemed to shift so easily at that point. I keep
thinking of the old adage, you catch more flies with honey than with
vinegar. If I had found someone to be patient and helpful with me 4
years ago, our family probably would have shifted into this lifestyle
much earlier. I avoided it though because I didn't want to become the
way some of the online unschoolers were. They were just creepy. :)
But hey, that's just me. :)
Beth M.
understand the theory behind it, it doesn't work for everyone. I am
not the kind of person who can take blunt criticism and learn from
it. That same bluntness that helped others, turned me off of
unschooling. Twice! The only reason I'm back to unschooling is
because we've tweaked and modified through trial and error and I found
that our lifestyle was more of an unschooling one. I met another
unschooler in real life and she was so nice and patient with me that
our lifestyle just seemed to shift so easily at that point. I keep
thinking of the old adage, you catch more flies with honey than with
vinegar. If I had found someone to be patient and helpful with me 4
years ago, our family probably would have shifted into this lifestyle
much earlier. I avoided it though because I didn't want to become the
way some of the online unschoolers were. They were just creepy. :)
But hey, that's just me. :)
Beth M.
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 7, 2006, at 8:21 PM, freepsgal wrote:
You're TALKING to the same people who were online before - so we are
those whom you're calling "creepy."
No offense taken, but really, did you mean to be that rude in telling
us how rude we are?
There are zillions of places to learn about unschooling and lots are
gentle and sweet (as are lots of the people right here, by the way).
---pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I avoided it though because I didn't want to become theBeth --
> way some of the online unschoolers were. They were just creepy. :)
You're TALKING to the same people who were online before - so we are
those whom you're calling "creepy."
No offense taken, but really, did you mean to be that rude in telling
us how rude we are?
There are zillions of places to learn about unschooling and lots are
gentle and sweet (as are lots of the people right here, by the way).
---pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
eriksmama2001
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
the way).
about unschooling and lots are NOT gentle and sweet. Did you feel
that she was talking about this list and "us"?
Pat
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>creepy. :)
>
> On Jul 7, 2006, at 8:21 PM, freepsgal wrote:
>
> > I avoided it though because I didn't want to become the
> > way some of the online unschoolers were. They were just
>are > those whom you're calling "creepy."
>
> Beth --
>
> You're TALKING to the same people who were online before - so we
>telling > us how rude we are?
> No offense taken, but really, did you mean to be that rude in
>are > gentle and sweet (as are lots of the people right here, by
> There are zillions of places to learn about unschooling and lots
the way).
>***Pam, as you mentioned, there are zillions of places to learn
about unschooling and lots are NOT gentle and sweet. Did you feel
that she was talking about this list and "us"?
Pat
jlh44music
<freepsgal@...> wrote:
I avoided it though because I didn't want to become the
way some of the online unschoolers were. They were just creepy. :)
Can you expand a little bit on "creepy"? I mean this in a friendly
way!
We're very new to unschooling, I only "found" it a couple of years
ago and have been really working on living an unschooling life for
about a year. I think it comes more easily to some. For me, where
my dd was in school through 6th grade, it's a big paradigm shift.
I've been there, feeling "challenged" or whatever word you choose to
insert (there have been many different ways of describing the
feeling different individual's have when first exploring
unschooling).
In my opinion, anything that makes me uncomfortable or move outside
of what I've always known can be scary. I try to keep an open
mind. I've had my moments of being unsure. But I know we're on
the right path.
Jann
I avoided it though because I didn't want to become the
way some of the online unschoolers were. They were just creepy. :)
> But hey, that's just me. :)>Hey Beth!
Can you expand a little bit on "creepy"? I mean this in a friendly
way!
We're very new to unschooling, I only "found" it a couple of years
ago and have been really working on living an unschooling life for
about a year. I think it comes more easily to some. For me, where
my dd was in school through 6th grade, it's a big paradigm shift.
I've been there, feeling "challenged" or whatever word you choose to
insert (there have been many different ways of describing the
feeling different individual's have when first exploring
unschooling).
In my opinion, anything that makes me uncomfortable or move outside
of what I've always known can be scary. I try to keep an open
mind. I've had my moments of being unsure. But I know we're on
the right path.
Jann
Ren Allen
~Re: the bluntness of unschooling lists sometimes... while I
understand the theory behind it, it doesn't work for everyone.~
That's why there's loads of resources, books and other methods of
learning for those that don't care for the email lists. I do think
unschooling is a self-learning thing (imagine that) and the lists are
just one way to get the info.
Different lists serve different purposes too.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
understand the theory behind it, it doesn't work for everyone.~
That's why there's loads of resources, books and other methods of
learning for those that don't care for the email lists. I do think
unschooling is a self-learning thing (imagine that) and the lists are
just one way to get the info.
Different lists serve different purposes too.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
eriksmama2001
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
concept of Unschooling. The joy is that we all Unschool ourselves!
Don't consider this list the only one. Or that all lists are just like
this one. There are some lists which are hand-holding, 'everyone be
gentle and never challenge anyone's different opinions', touchy-feely
support lists; and there are some lists that are abusive, abrasive and
no-holds-barred authoritarian or uncensored. There is something for
everyone in between, depending on how *you* prefer to learn about
Unschooling. :-)
But, it is hard to *learn* about something new if no one ever offers a
different way to look at it.
Pat
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> That's why there's loads of resources, books and other methods of***Wow, is this so. But, it isn't self-evident to those new to the
> learning for those that don't care for the email lists. I do think
> unschooling is a self-learning thing (imagine that) and the lists are
> just one way to get the info.
> Different lists serve different purposes too.
concept of Unschooling. The joy is that we all Unschool ourselves!
Don't consider this list the only one. Or that all lists are just like
this one. There are some lists which are hand-holding, 'everyone be
gentle and never challenge anyone's different opinions', touchy-feely
support lists; and there are some lists that are abusive, abrasive and
no-holds-barred authoritarian or uncensored. There is something for
everyone in between, depending on how *you* prefer to learn about
Unschooling. :-)
But, it is hard to *learn* about something new if no one ever offers a
different way to look at it.
Pat
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 8, 2006, at 8:42 AM, eriksmama2001 wrote:
567,000 hits
Go to yahoogroups start page and search for "unschooling."
648 groups listed
Go to amazon.com and search for books about "unschooling."
87 books listed
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Google "unschooling."
> But, it is hard to *learn* about something new if no one ever offers a
> different way to look at it.
567,000 hits
Go to yahoogroups start page and search for "unschooling."
648 groups listed
Go to amazon.com and search for books about "unschooling."
87 books listed
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 7, 2006, at 9:03 PM, eriksmama2001 wrote:
been, in the past, accused of not being gentle and sweet,
Second - this list is relatively new, but most of us are the same
people on all the major unschooling lists.
My point is that when someone starts complaining about the people on
the radical unschooing lists of four years ago, that was really the
same people as those who are outspoken on the lists these days. If
they seem to be speaking in different "tones" to the reader - that is
probably in the perception of the reader.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> ***Pam, as you mentioned, there are zillions of places to learnFirst - I am co-owner, with Sandra and Joyce, of the one that has
> about unschooling and lots are NOT gentle and
> sweet. Did you feel
> that she was talking about this list and "us"?
been, in the past, accused of not being gentle and sweet,
Second - this list is relatively new, but most of us are the same
people on all the major unschooling lists.
My point is that when someone starts complaining about the people on
the radical unschooing lists of four years ago, that was really the
same people as those who are outspoken on the lists these days. If
they seem to be speaking in different "tones" to the reader - that is
probably in the perception of the reader.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freepsgal
> Beth --Um, no, I didn't call you rude. I was referring to some people that
>
> You're TALKING to the same people who were online before - so we
> are those whom you're calling "creepy."
>
> No offense taken, but really, did you mean to be that rude in
> telling us how rude we are?
> ---pam
I still know by name because they had such a negative impact on my
view of unschooling. I don't recall seeing them post here on this
list at all. If I did, I would have unsubbed as I don't care to
hear their views or have them blast me again.
*laugh* I find it highly ironic that you think I'm referring to you
and some of the more verbose members of this group within this
specific thread. If you can truly step back a moment, can you see
how new people might see that as a 'club' mentality?? *LOL* Your
statement makes it sound like every unschooling group has the same
Core Members. I am referring to a couple of groups I tried out
between 2001 and 2003. I've only been a member of this group since
April of this year.
Beth M.
freepsgal
jlh44music@... wrote:
between 2001 and 2003 were not challenging in a helpful way. I was
told that I was stupid because I didn't "get" unschooling right
away. They had no patience for people trying to understand. They
were very black and white. You either were a radical unschooler or
you were a misguided parent out to ruin your children. And they had
strict definitions of being a radical unschooler. I was told that I
was only welcome to participate on the list if I followed their RU
rules. That just seemed so weird. I finally left in tears and I'm
sure they laughed at me until some other poor soul made the mistake
of asking questions.
Beth M.
> Hey Beth!and
> Can you expand a little bit on "creepy"? I mean this in a
> friendly way!
> In my opinion, anything that makes me uncomfortable or moveoutside
> of what I've always known can be scary. I try to keep an openNo, the comments I received when I was looking into unschooling
> mind. I've had my moments of being unsure. But I know we're on
> the right path.
> Jann
between 2001 and 2003 were not challenging in a helpful way. I was
told that I was stupid because I didn't "get" unschooling right
away. They had no patience for people trying to understand. They
were very black and white. You either were a radical unschooler or
you were a misguided parent out to ruin your children. And they had
strict definitions of being a radical unschooler. I was told that I
was only welcome to participate on the list if I followed their RU
rules. That just seemed so weird. I finally left in tears and I'm
sure they laughed at me until some other poor soul made the mistake
of asking questions.
Beth M.
Betsy Hill
**Google "unschooling."
567,000 hits**
Does anyone remember what the google technique is that causes it to
return a list of phrases of the form "unschooling is mumble mumble
mumble"?
Thanks,
Betsy
567,000 hits**
Does anyone remember what the google technique is that causes it to
return a list of phrases of the form "unschooling is mumble mumble
mumble"?
Thanks,
Betsy
Pamela Sorooshian
What list was that?
-pam
-pam
On Jul 8, 2006, at 6:40 PM, freepsgal wrote:
> No, the comments I received when I was looking into unschooling
> between 2001 and 2003 were not challenging in a helpful way. I was
> told that I was stupid because I didn't "get" unschooling right
> away. They had no patience for people trying to understand. They
> were very black and white. You either were a radical unschooler or
> you were a misguided parent out to ruin your children. And they had
> strict definitions of being a radical unschooler. I was told that I
> was only welcome to participate on the list if I followed their RU
> rules. That just seemed so weird. I finally left in tears and I'm
> sure they laughed at me until some other poor soul made the mistake
> of asking questions.
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
eriksmama2001
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
really the > same people as those who are outspoken on the lists
these days. If > they seem to be speaking in different "tones" to
the reader - that is > probably in the perception of the reader.
hadn't changed.
What I have experienced is that many have perceived my posts as
holier-than-thou and judgmental and I chose to examine the pattern
of perceiving them that way, despite my intent.
"Perception makes it so." (as they say)
Pat
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>***Sounds like you have received a lot of feedback.
> First - I am co-owner, with Sandra and Joyce, of the one that has
> been, in the past, accused of not being gentle and sweet,
> Second - this list is relatively new, but most of us are the same***This seems to sound like an inclusive group, or "club".
> people on all the major unschooling lists.
>on > the radical unschooing lists of four years ago, that was
> My point is that when someone starts complaining about the people
really the > same people as those who are outspoken on the lists
these days. If > they seem to be speaking in different "tones" to
the reader - that is > probably in the perception of the reader.
>***I didn't see that the poster perceived that the "tones" had or
hadn't changed.
What I have experienced is that many have perceived my posts as
holier-than-thou and judgmental and I chose to examine the pattern
of perceiving them that way, despite my intent.
"Perception makes it so." (as they say)
Pat
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 8, 2006, at 11:16 PM, Betsy Hill wrote:
Unfortunately Google changed so Googlism users couldn't make queries
anymore :-( It was very popular and maybe it was overloading Google
at the time.
But there are extensive archives. You'll get answers to most queries
but it will always be the same answer :-/
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Does anyone remember what the google technique is that causes it tohttp://www.Googlism.com
> return a list of phrases of the form "unschooling is mumble mumble
> mumble"?
Unfortunately Google changed so Googlism users couldn't make queries
anymore :-( It was very popular and maybe it was overloading Google
at the time.
But there are extensive archives. You'll get answers to most queries
but it will always be the same answer :-/
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
>Thanks, Joyce. I've bookmarked it so I can "remember" it, instead of
> http://www.Googlism.com
>
> Unfortunately Google changed so Googlism users couldn't make queries
> anymore :-(
>
> But there are extensive archives. You'll get answers to most queries
> but it will always be the same answer :-/
>
needing to use the collective brain.
Betsy
Mik McEwen
Hi All,
I met some of you in Peabody, MA at the Unschoolers Conference last month.
It was amazing and I so wish I can make it to NM in September. Maybe.
Anyhow-I just typed and printed this (see below line) out to put on my
little windowsill alter and thought that some people on this list may enjoy
it. I really really have a hard time with control (fear fear panic panic)
and am actively working on this issue. This resonated with me today, as it
may with a few of you. I would LOVE to dialog about the issue of CONTROL
and how it affects our parenting, unschooling and lives.
PLEASE KNOW I am not pushing any spiritual practice, just thought this was
appropriate for unschoolers. I know I am a new poster and on moderated
status, so it is ok if this isn't appropriate or doesn't go through.
Mik in CT
with the wild boys, Beckett and Sawyer
-----------------------------------------
From: Buddhism, Plain and Simple by Steve Hagen
Generally our desire, our actions, our speech, and our thoughts are geared
toward bringing about some particular end by exerting control. Then, when
these efforts at control fail (as they inevitably must if held onto too
long), we suffer.
The Buddha-dharma doesn't ask us to give up control. Instead, it
acknowledges that we never had it in the first place. When we can see this,
the desire to control naturally begins to wane. The point is not to try to
stop exerting control, or to condemn the desire to control as bad or wrong.
The point is to see things as they are, to acknowledge what's really gone
on. Thought such acknowledgment and recognition, we can cease to suffer.
At the center of our desire for control is our sense of self. But with
seeing, this sense loses its grip. What becomes extinguished is this false
sense of self. We stop clinging to something that wasn't there to begin
with. Our first reaction to this might be, "But who would want that?" If
we look at this more carefully we'll find profound liberation in it. For is
what frightens us most is in fact illusionary, then waking up to its
illusory nature yields the most profound freedom. Our greatest fear is that
each of us."I" will someday pass out of existence. But how can something
cease to exist that had no solid existence in the first place?
The Buddha said,
Just as a man shudders with horror when he steps upon a serpent, but laughs
when he looks down and sees that is is not a rope, so I discovered one day
that what I was calling "I" cannot be found, and all fear and anxiety
vanished with my mistake.
The Buddha-dharma points the way for each of us to wake from this same basic
mistake. And when we awaken, our fears and anxieties quite naturally
vanish, as the night fades away at the rising of the sun.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I met some of you in Peabody, MA at the Unschoolers Conference last month.
It was amazing and I so wish I can make it to NM in September. Maybe.
Anyhow-I just typed and printed this (see below line) out to put on my
little windowsill alter and thought that some people on this list may enjoy
it. I really really have a hard time with control (fear fear panic panic)
and am actively working on this issue. This resonated with me today, as it
may with a few of you. I would LOVE to dialog about the issue of CONTROL
and how it affects our parenting, unschooling and lives.
PLEASE KNOW I am not pushing any spiritual practice, just thought this was
appropriate for unschoolers. I know I am a new poster and on moderated
status, so it is ok if this isn't appropriate or doesn't go through.
Mik in CT
with the wild boys, Beckett and Sawyer
-----------------------------------------
From: Buddhism, Plain and Simple by Steve Hagen
Generally our desire, our actions, our speech, and our thoughts are geared
toward bringing about some particular end by exerting control. Then, when
these efforts at control fail (as they inevitably must if held onto too
long), we suffer.
The Buddha-dharma doesn't ask us to give up control. Instead, it
acknowledges that we never had it in the first place. When we can see this,
the desire to control naturally begins to wane. The point is not to try to
stop exerting control, or to condemn the desire to control as bad or wrong.
The point is to see things as they are, to acknowledge what's really gone
on. Thought such acknowledgment and recognition, we can cease to suffer.
At the center of our desire for control is our sense of self. But with
seeing, this sense loses its grip. What becomes extinguished is this false
sense of self. We stop clinging to something that wasn't there to begin
with. Our first reaction to this might be, "But who would want that?" If
we look at this more carefully we'll find profound liberation in it. For is
what frightens us most is in fact illusionary, then waking up to its
illusory nature yields the most profound freedom. Our greatest fear is that
each of us."I" will someday pass out of existence. But how can something
cease to exist that had no solid existence in the first place?
The Buddha said,
Just as a man shudders with horror when he steps upon a serpent, but laughs
when he looks down and sees that is is not a rope, so I discovered one day
that what I was calling "I" cannot be found, and all fear and anxiety
vanished with my mistake.
The Buddha-dharma points the way for each of us to wake from this same basic
mistake. And when we awaken, our fears and anxieties quite naturally
vanish, as the night fades away at the rising of the sun.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~The Buddha-dharma doesn't ask us to give up control. Instead, it
acknowledges that we never had it in the first place. When we can see
this, the desire to control naturally begins to wane.~
SO true.
We were talking about the idea of "non-attachment" not too long ago,
you might enjoy that thread. You know, the whole control thing has so
many aspects to it, doesn't it?
I remember trying to control my OWN emotions (trying for a more
positive outcome) and that didn't work very well either. Instead of
releasing control, I was trying to make myself NOT feel angry!:)
Once I understood that the feelings would come, and all I had to do
was observe them, rather than react, I had much more calmness/kind
responses than when I was trying to control my own emotions.
Recognizing that we do not control another individual is huge too. We
can gain a sense of false control (manipulate behavior with anger and
punishment) but in the end, they will still make up their own minds.
Much better to have less space between the two people, built of trust,
so that the other person can be open and honest.
Welcome to the list Mike!! It's great to have you here.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
acknowledges that we never had it in the first place. When we can see
this, the desire to control naturally begins to wane.~
SO true.
We were talking about the idea of "non-attachment" not too long ago,
you might enjoy that thread. You know, the whole control thing has so
many aspects to it, doesn't it?
I remember trying to control my OWN emotions (trying for a more
positive outcome) and that didn't work very well either. Instead of
releasing control, I was trying to make myself NOT feel angry!:)
Once I understood that the feelings would come, and all I had to do
was observe them, rather than react, I had much more calmness/kind
responses than when I was trying to control my own emotions.
Recognizing that we do not control another individual is huge too. We
can gain a sense of false control (manipulate behavior with anger and
punishment) but in the end, they will still make up their own minds.
Much better to have less space between the two people, built of trust,
so that the other person can be open and honest.
Welcome to the list Mike!! It's great to have you here.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Joanne
Thanks for sharing that. I printed it out.
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (11) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (11) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com
Alice Sackman
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
wrote:
this, the desire to control naturally begins to wane.~
many aspects to it, doesn't it?
leanings or consider themselves Buddhist? I was just wondering if the
unschooling community has a higher percentage of Dharma practitioners
than in the general population. I came to unschooling because of the
Dharma - it just seemed such a natural fit with its emphasis on being in
the moment and letting go of control. And school seemed quite the
opposite with its emphasis on competition and the continual striving to
be "more", to be "better". I'm not meaning to frighten anyone away from
unschooling because of this or to start a religious discussion, I was
just wondering....
-Alice
wrote:
>acknowledges that we never had it in the first place. When we can see>
> ~The Buddha-dharma doesn't ask us to give up control. Instead, it
this, the desire to control naturally begins to wane.~
>you might enjoy that thread. You know, the whole control thing has so
> SO true.
> We were talking about the idea of "non-attachment" not too long ago,
many aspects to it, doesn't it?
> Ren*** I was just wondering, how many people on this list have Buddhist
leanings or consider themselves Buddhist? I was just wondering if the
unschooling community has a higher percentage of Dharma practitioners
than in the general population. I came to unschooling because of the
Dharma - it just seemed such a natural fit with its emphasis on being in
the moment and letting go of control. And school seemed quite the
opposite with its emphasis on competition and the continual striving to
be "more", to be "better". I'm not meaning to frighten anyone away from
unschooling because of this or to start a religious discussion, I was
just wondering....
-Alice