Re: Rules vs. Expectations
Deb Lewis
***I expect them to
treat each other and their parents respectfully. I expect them to
participate in keeping the house straightened up at their own
ability level. I expect them to help take care of our animals.***
I wonder if we all think of the word "expect" in the same way?
Some people might say "I expect them to (blank) " and the unspoken part
of that is "and boy, if they don't there'll be hell to pay."
I doubt you mean it that way. <g> "Expect" seems to imply (for me) the
unspoken "or else."
While I have expectations of David (dh) I do so because as an adult he
agreed to a certain kind of life with me. So I expect him to be faithful
in our marriage. I expect him to provide an income. I expect him to be
kind to his family. And if he can't do those things or if he changes his
mind I expect him to tell me. There is an "or else" to the failure to
meet those expectations. <g> If he's unfaithful he'll lose my trust and
maybe be divorced. If he can't work he'll have to change the standard of
living he's accustomed to. If he's not kind to us he'll have to change
that or he'll be asked to leave.
But Dylan didn't make any agreements with us upon his conception and
birth. We didn't give him a choice. We just made him and then kept him.
He didn't get to listen to our terms and agree or decline. He didn't
get to present us with his terms.
I never expected Dylan to help keep the house straightened up for a
couple of reasons. Initially it was because as a child I had to help
and I resented it. As Dylan's mom I thought if resentment was the price
of tidy, tidy was too expensive. <g> But as I became a more mindful
parent it became more about whether it was really Dylan's responsibility.
*I* was the one with the vision of "tidy." *I* was the one who'd made
the choices about furniture arrangement for the sake of *my* convenience.
David and I were the people who'd decided we'd live in house. We were
paying the mortgage. We'd decided it was worth it. None of that was up
to Dylan. It wasn't his responsibility to meet my expectations for our
home. His expectations were very different. He expected to have a
happy day. He expected to find his toys where he left them. He expected
to be able to play. I believed that his expectations were just as valid
as mine, and maybe more valid. Mine seemed to be based on societal norms
for standards of acceptable levels of tidy. <g> (I got over that.
)<bwg>
When I began to view his need for freedom to play and explore as equal to
my need for a minimal level of tidy I found my happy place. I could
straighten up and clean without making him feel like he was in the way in
his own home. I accepted that he had as much right to have his stuff on
the table and coffee table and floor as I did. My stuff was rugs,
pottery, candles, books, decorative doo-dads. My stuff was pretty and
made our home look nice. My stuff still wasn't more important than his
stuff.<g> I wasn't more deserving of space for things than he was.
I would say, out loud, "I'm going to do the dishes so we have a nice
clean kitchen." or "I'm going to move your stuff for a minute to wash
this table." Or, after dinner, "Let me take your plate to the sink." He
saw the value in cleaning up. He began to participate. When he was very
little, if he saw me wipe the table before dinner, he'd go get a
washcloth, sometimes dry, sometimes sopping wet, <g> and start wiping
stuff: His toes, the cat, the floor, the chairs, my shoes. <g> If he
wanted to play at the coffee table he would often get a cloth and wipe it
first. After he was finished with food he'd take his dishes to the sink.
I know when I come downstairs in the morning Dylan will have put his
things away and taken his dishes to the sink. I know he'll have locked
the doors and turned out the lights. It's not that I expect it in a "do
it or else" kind of way but I know he's responsible. If he didn't do
one or all of those things I'd know he had a good reason. If the reason
was that he was tired and forgot, that's a good reason.<g>
For years Dylan has been responsible and helpful. Part of that is his
nature. Part, I believe, is because we lived like this was his house as
much as ours but we didn't force our expectations on him. He had the
freedom and time to learn that because it was his house too, he benefited
from it being tidy. He came to see this house as partly his
responsibility and he has no resentment about cleaning and helping
because he hasn't been held to someone else's expectation.
It's the same with our animals. The old dog is mine and was mine before
I ever got David or Dylan. The old cat, too. The newer dog and cat and
frogs and bird came later but the decision was mine. I am the one who
is home most of the time, I'm the one who pays for food and vet bills.
Dylan could not bring a critter into the house unless I agreed. He
doesn't have a steady income that would pay for vet bills and food. He'd
need the approval of the people who'd be paying for that. So the
responsibility for critter care is on me.
And just like with housework, as I took care of animals I'd say "You guys
need fresh water." And, "Oh, no! Your bowl is empty!" And "MAN! There
are dog bombs all over the yard, it's time to scoop!" Dylan became
aware of the level of care critters needed. He loves the animals and was
happy to contribute to their care. I'm sure I could have ruined his
willingness to be patient with or to clean up after our old dog now if I
had expected him to be responsible for the animals when he was younger.
"Expected" in the "or else," kind of way, I mean. Or else he'd get
yelled at, or else he'd be shamed, or else he'd be punished, etc.
All along though, I have been able to ask for help. I was able to ask
for and get help from my five year old when I wanted it and it's the same
with my teenager. He has helped happily when I've asked and he helps
when I don't ask. Again, that's partly his nature, but I believe it's
partly due to the freedom he's had to learn the value of helping. I
think of expecting a child to do chores the same way I think of requiring
a child to do workbooks or drills. It's not necessary. It doesn't
necessarily contribute to the learning most adults think it will and it
can cause stress in the relationship.
If unschoolers can trust a child will learn math concepts and reading and
writing they can trust a child will learn helpfulness. And just like
unschoolers are prepared to accept later reading by a child if the child
isn't ready to read at eight or nine or ten, they should be prepared to
accept the helpfulness to come at exactly the time the child is ready.
That's hard for parents as they tend to think they "deserve" help when
*they* are ready for it. But helpfulness is a gift and we don't demand
gifts from gift givers. We don't sit around waiting for gifts to be
bestowed upon us. We give the gifts we have; time, patience, freedom,
helpfulness and when that beautiful thing blossoms from our gift giving
we just sit back in awe of the amazing nature of our kids. <g>
Deb Lewis
treat each other and their parents respectfully. I expect them to
participate in keeping the house straightened up at their own
ability level. I expect them to help take care of our animals.***
I wonder if we all think of the word "expect" in the same way?
Some people might say "I expect them to (blank) " and the unspoken part
of that is "and boy, if they don't there'll be hell to pay."
I doubt you mean it that way. <g> "Expect" seems to imply (for me) the
unspoken "or else."
While I have expectations of David (dh) I do so because as an adult he
agreed to a certain kind of life with me. So I expect him to be faithful
in our marriage. I expect him to provide an income. I expect him to be
kind to his family. And if he can't do those things or if he changes his
mind I expect him to tell me. There is an "or else" to the failure to
meet those expectations. <g> If he's unfaithful he'll lose my trust and
maybe be divorced. If he can't work he'll have to change the standard of
living he's accustomed to. If he's not kind to us he'll have to change
that or he'll be asked to leave.
But Dylan didn't make any agreements with us upon his conception and
birth. We didn't give him a choice. We just made him and then kept him.
He didn't get to listen to our terms and agree or decline. He didn't
get to present us with his terms.
I never expected Dylan to help keep the house straightened up for a
couple of reasons. Initially it was because as a child I had to help
and I resented it. As Dylan's mom I thought if resentment was the price
of tidy, tidy was too expensive. <g> But as I became a more mindful
parent it became more about whether it was really Dylan's responsibility.
*I* was the one with the vision of "tidy." *I* was the one who'd made
the choices about furniture arrangement for the sake of *my* convenience.
David and I were the people who'd decided we'd live in house. We were
paying the mortgage. We'd decided it was worth it. None of that was up
to Dylan. It wasn't his responsibility to meet my expectations for our
home. His expectations were very different. He expected to have a
happy day. He expected to find his toys where he left them. He expected
to be able to play. I believed that his expectations were just as valid
as mine, and maybe more valid. Mine seemed to be based on societal norms
for standards of acceptable levels of tidy. <g> (I got over that.
)<bwg>
When I began to view his need for freedom to play and explore as equal to
my need for a minimal level of tidy I found my happy place. I could
straighten up and clean without making him feel like he was in the way in
his own home. I accepted that he had as much right to have his stuff on
the table and coffee table and floor as I did. My stuff was rugs,
pottery, candles, books, decorative doo-dads. My stuff was pretty and
made our home look nice. My stuff still wasn't more important than his
stuff.<g> I wasn't more deserving of space for things than he was.
I would say, out loud, "I'm going to do the dishes so we have a nice
clean kitchen." or "I'm going to move your stuff for a minute to wash
this table." Or, after dinner, "Let me take your plate to the sink." He
saw the value in cleaning up. He began to participate. When he was very
little, if he saw me wipe the table before dinner, he'd go get a
washcloth, sometimes dry, sometimes sopping wet, <g> and start wiping
stuff: His toes, the cat, the floor, the chairs, my shoes. <g> If he
wanted to play at the coffee table he would often get a cloth and wipe it
first. After he was finished with food he'd take his dishes to the sink.
I know when I come downstairs in the morning Dylan will have put his
things away and taken his dishes to the sink. I know he'll have locked
the doors and turned out the lights. It's not that I expect it in a "do
it or else" kind of way but I know he's responsible. If he didn't do
one or all of those things I'd know he had a good reason. If the reason
was that he was tired and forgot, that's a good reason.<g>
For years Dylan has been responsible and helpful. Part of that is his
nature. Part, I believe, is because we lived like this was his house as
much as ours but we didn't force our expectations on him. He had the
freedom and time to learn that because it was his house too, he benefited
from it being tidy. He came to see this house as partly his
responsibility and he has no resentment about cleaning and helping
because he hasn't been held to someone else's expectation.
It's the same with our animals. The old dog is mine and was mine before
I ever got David or Dylan. The old cat, too. The newer dog and cat and
frogs and bird came later but the decision was mine. I am the one who
is home most of the time, I'm the one who pays for food and vet bills.
Dylan could not bring a critter into the house unless I agreed. He
doesn't have a steady income that would pay for vet bills and food. He'd
need the approval of the people who'd be paying for that. So the
responsibility for critter care is on me.
And just like with housework, as I took care of animals I'd say "You guys
need fresh water." And, "Oh, no! Your bowl is empty!" And "MAN! There
are dog bombs all over the yard, it's time to scoop!" Dylan became
aware of the level of care critters needed. He loves the animals and was
happy to contribute to their care. I'm sure I could have ruined his
willingness to be patient with or to clean up after our old dog now if I
had expected him to be responsible for the animals when he was younger.
"Expected" in the "or else," kind of way, I mean. Or else he'd get
yelled at, or else he'd be shamed, or else he'd be punished, etc.
All along though, I have been able to ask for help. I was able to ask
for and get help from my five year old when I wanted it and it's the same
with my teenager. He has helped happily when I've asked and he helps
when I don't ask. Again, that's partly his nature, but I believe it's
partly due to the freedom he's had to learn the value of helping. I
think of expecting a child to do chores the same way I think of requiring
a child to do workbooks or drills. It's not necessary. It doesn't
necessarily contribute to the learning most adults think it will and it
can cause stress in the relationship.
If unschoolers can trust a child will learn math concepts and reading and
writing they can trust a child will learn helpfulness. And just like
unschoolers are prepared to accept later reading by a child if the child
isn't ready to read at eight or nine or ten, they should be prepared to
accept the helpfulness to come at exactly the time the child is ready.
That's hard for parents as they tend to think they "deserve" help when
*they* are ready for it. But helpfulness is a gift and we don't demand
gifts from gift givers. We don't sit around waiting for gifts to be
bestowed upon us. We give the gifts we have; time, patience, freedom,
helpfulness and when that beautiful thing blossoms from our gift giving
we just sit back in awe of the amazing nature of our kids. <g>
Deb Lewis
Queana
> -----Original Message-----[***]No, I don't have a threat at the end of my expect, lol. It's just what
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Deb Lewis
> Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 8:36 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Rules vs. Expectations
>
> ***I expect them to
> treat each other and their parents respectfully. I expect them to
> participate in keeping the house straightened up at their own
> ability level. I expect them to help take care of our animals.***
>
> I wonder if we all think of the word "expect" in the same way?
>
> Some people might say "I expect them to (blank) " and the unspoken part
> of that is "and boy, if they don't there'll be hell to pay."
> I doubt you mean it that way. <g> "Expect" seems to imply (for me) the
> unspoken "or else."
>
seems reasonable. So if it doesn't happen it seems odd, and we might talk
about it. I expect my kids to be hungry at lunch time. If they're not, it
seems odd and I might ask them if they already ate something or if their
tummy feels ok, or whatever.
> While I have expectations of David (dh) I do so because as an adult he[***] Seems reasonable.
> agreed to a certain kind of life with me. So I expect him to be faithful
> in our marriage. I expect him to provide an income. I expect him to be
> kind to his family. And if he can't do those things or if he changes his
> mind I expect him to tell me. There is an "or else" to the failure to
> meet those expectations. <g> If he's unfaithful he'll lose my trust and
> maybe be divorced. If he can't work he'll have to change the standard of
> living he's accustomed to. If he's not kind to us he'll have to change
> that or he'll be asked to leave.
>
> But Dylan didn't make any agreements with us upon his conception and[***] True. Although nobody on the planet agreed to be born or which
> birth. We didn't give him a choice. We just made him and then kept him.
> He didn't get to listen to our terms and agree or decline. He didn't
> get to present us with his terms.
>
parents to be born to (or did they... but that's a totally different
conversation) so I don’t really think that applies to areas of personal care
or responsibility.
> I never expected Dylan to help keep the house straightened up for a[***] I agree that kids don't have a responsibility to meet expectations for
> couple of reasons. Initially it was because as a child I had to help
> and I resented it. As Dylan's mom I thought if resentment was the price
> of tidy, tidy was too expensive. <g> But as I became a more mindful
> parent it became more about whether it was really Dylan's responsibility.
> *I* was the one with the vision of "tidy." *I* was the one who'd made
> the choices about furniture arrangement for the sake of *my* convenience.
> David and I were the people who'd decided we'd live in house. We were
> paying the mortgage. We'd decided it was worth it. None of that was up
> to Dylan. It wasn't his responsibility to meet my expectations for our
> home. His expectations were very different. He expected to have a
> happy day. He expected to find his toys where he left them. He expected
> to be able to play. I believed that his expectations were just as valid
> as mine, and maybe more valid. Mine seemed to be based on societal norms
> for standards of acceptable levels of tidy. <g> (I got over that.
> )<bwg>
>
a home, to care for a home or to do maintenance on a home.
> When I began to view his need for freedom to play and explore as equal to[***] I agree with this.
> my need for a minimal level of tidy I found my happy place. I could
> straighten up and clean without making him feel like he was in the way in
> his own home. I accepted that he had as much right to have his stuff on
> the table and coffee table and floor as I did. My stuff was rugs,
> pottery, candles, books, decorative doo-dads. My stuff was pretty and
> made our home look nice. My stuff still wasn't more important than his
> stuff.<g> I wasn't more deserving of space for things than he was.
>
> I would say, out loud, "I'm going to do the dishes so we have a nice[***] Yes I've seen these same dynamics in my family.
> clean kitchen." or "I'm going to move your stuff for a minute to wash
> this table." Or, after dinner, "Let me take your plate to the sink." He
> saw the value in cleaning up. He began to participate. When he was very
> little, if he saw me wipe the table before dinner, he'd go get a
> washcloth, sometimes dry, sometimes sopping wet, <g> and start wiping
> stuff: His toes, the cat, the floor, the chairs, my shoes. <g> If he
> wanted to play at the coffee table he would often get a cloth and wipe it
> first. After he was finished with food he'd take his dishes to the sink.
>
>
> I know when I come downstairs in the morning Dylan will have put his
> things away and taken his dishes to the sink. I know he'll have locked
> the doors and turned out the lights. It's not that I expect it in a "do
> it or else" kind of way but I know he's responsible. If he didn't do
> one or all of those things I'd know he had a good reason. If the reason
> was that he was tired and forgot, that's a good reason.<g>
>
> For years Dylan has been responsible and helpful. Part of that is his[***] We've always just had the assumption in our family that people as they
> nature. Part, I believe, is because we lived like this was his house as
> much as ours but we didn't force our expectations on him. He had the
> freedom and time to learn that because it was his house too, he benefited
> from it being tidy. He came to see this house as partly his
> responsibility and he has no resentment about cleaning and helping
> because he hasn't been held to someone else's expectation.
>
get older gradually take on more personal responsibility for their bodies
and their surroundings.
My kids are all responsible and helpful as well, in their own ways within
their own personalities and ages. For example, my 11 y.o. has a tendency to
put his stuff everywhere around the house. But on his way to bed he turns
out all the lights, puts the cat away, turns off the lizard and toads day
lights, and locks the doors. Not because he'll be punished if he doesn't do
it but because he enjoys doing it and feels like he's taking care of things.
Actual cleaning (not just stuff-picking-up) and yard care and house care is
the domain of the parents and/or whoever they want to pay imo.
> It's the same with our animals. The old dog is mine and was mine before[***] Yes, I think we blew it with my 15 y.o. on this one. He *really*
> I ever got David or Dylan. The old cat, too. The newer dog and cat and
> frogs and bird came later but the decision was mine. I am the one who
> is home most of the time, I'm the one who pays for food and vet bills.
> Dylan could not bring a critter into the house unless I agreed. He
> doesn't have a steady income that would pay for vet bills and food. He'd
> need the approval of the people who'd be paying for that. So the
> responsibility for critter care is on me.
>
> And just like with housework, as I took care of animals I'd say "You guys
> need fresh water." And, "Oh, no! Your bowl is empty!" And "MAN! There
> are dog bombs all over the yard, it's time to scoop!" Dylan became
> aware of the level of care critters needed. He loves the animals and was
> happy to contribute to their care. I'm sure I could have ruined his
> willingness to be patient with or to clean up after our old dog now if I
> had expected him to be responsible for the animals when he was younger.
> "Expected" in the "or else," kind of way, I mean. Or else he'd get
> yelled at, or else he'd be shamed, or else he'd be punished, etc.
>
> All along though, I have been able to ask for help. I was able to ask
> for and get help from my five year old when I wanted it and it's the same
> with my teenager. He has helped happily when I've asked and he helps
> when I don't ask. Again, that's partly his nature, but I believe it's
> partly due to the freedom he's had to learn the value of helping. I
> think of expecting a child to do chores the same way I think of requiring
> a child to do workbooks or drills. It's not necessary. It doesn't
> necessarily contribute to the learning most adults think it will and it
> can cause stress in the relationship.
>
wanted a dog and we told him he would have to help take care of it (this was
when he was like 7). Here he is 15, and still having to take care of the
dog plus another one we added later. He has help for it, but his dad will
sometimes make him do it when he doesn't want to. This is obviously not an
ideal pet care situation. I should be taking more responsibility for that.
On the other hand, the cat care has been my 11 y.o.s responsibility and he
just handles it. Sometime he needs a reminder but mostly he just does it.
He also, as I mentioned earlier, turns the lizard and toad light off at
night and on in the morning, although feeding crickets and cleaning cages is
usually my domain.
Pets is a hard one for me. I feel uncomfortable with the kids *knowing*
(for example) that the dogs are hungry, but preferring to sit down and eat
themselves, or go to bed, without feeding the dogs. Modeling the attitude
of caring for animals and then self would obviously work better than saying,
"Feed the critters before you eat!"
> If unschoolers can trust a child will learn math concepts and reading and[***] For me, picking up after yourself isn't the same as helpfulness. I am
> writing they can trust a child will learn helpfulness. And just like
> unschoolers are prepared to accept later reading by a child if the child
> isn't ready to read at eight or nine or ten, they should be prepared to
> accept the helpfulness to come at exactly the time the child is ready.
> That's hard for parents as they tend to think they "deserve" help when
> *they* are ready for it. But helpfulness is a gift and we don't demand
> gifts from gift givers. We don't sit around waiting for gifts to be
> bestowed upon us. We give the gifts we have; time, patience, freedom,
> helpfulness and when that beautiful thing blossoms from our gift giving
> we just sit back in awe of the amazing nature of our kids. <g>
>
>
> Deb Lewis
>
>
not trying to "teach" my kids to be helpful by expecting them to put their
stuff away now and then (not stuff they're using; stuff they used three days
ago and is still laying out, for example). Instead I am just expecting them
to gradually gain more responsibility for their bodies and their
surroundings. Stuff gets broken when it lays around. Happens often around
here, lol.
I don't think I "deserve" help. I enjoy help when it comes. I just don't
really consider picking up ones own stuff to be "help" though. It's just
part of growing up and maturing. When they're little they need help with
*everything* - butt wiping, tooth brushing, feeding, dressing, etc. etc.
When they move out (ideally) they are ready for the world - personal care
and personal surroundings care, and able to care for others. It seems like
a natural gradual progression to get to that point unless it is stymied by
outside forces.
~Q~
aka Sarah
http://www.unbridledlearning.com
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Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 3, 2006, at 9:56 AM, Queana wrote:
hold the door for me? You know, I feel uncomfortable sitting down to
eat when I know the dogs are hungry."
Giving information means giving them insight to your thinking. They
might wonder, "Hmmm - do "I" feel uncomfortable knowing the dogs are
hungry?" Their answer might be that they don't - but you've added a
little tidbit of awareness of the dogs - that is how empathy grows -
it doesn't spring forth fully formed.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Pets is a hard one for me. I feel uncomfortable with the kidsOr say, "Hey, want to come help me with feeding the pets? Can you
> *knowing*
> (for example) that the dogs are hungry, but preferring to sit down
> and eat
> themselves, or go to bed, without feeding the dogs. Modeling the
> attitude
> of caring for animals and then self would obviously work better
> than saying,
> "Feed the critters before you eat!"
hold the door for me? You know, I feel uncomfortable sitting down to
eat when I know the dogs are hungry."
Giving information means giving them insight to your thinking. They
might wonder, "Hmmm - do "I" feel uncomfortable knowing the dogs are
hungry?" Their answer might be that they don't - but you've added a
little tidbit of awareness of the dogs - that is how empathy grows -
it doesn't spring forth fully formed.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
> When they move out (ideally) they are ready for the world -Apparently it is SO natural that there is no reason to require it.
> personal care
> and personal surroundings care, and able to care for others. It
> seems like
> a natural gradual progression to get to that point unless it is
> stymied by
> outside forces.
I didn't do a good job of this with my kids - I'm making up for it,
some, but my kids are older and have a lot of baggage already
instilled in them, over picking stuff up around the house. This is
probably the main thing they get grumpy over, with each other. My
fault - I've modeled getting cranky when other people in the family
are messy.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***No, I don't have a threat at the end of my expect, lol. It's just
what
seems reasonable. ***
So if a kid didn't turn on the dish washer and you had expected him to
there wouldn't be a lecture or a "you disappointed me." But I don't
think that would be the case in most families where parents have
expectations of their kids. I think if a parent was expecting a kid to
do X and the kid didn't he'd hear about it. Since that's the way it is
in most families that's what unschoolers caution against.
***Although nobody on the planet agreed to be born or which
parents to be born to <snip> so I dont really think that applies to
areas of personal care
or responsibility.***
Adults have had time here, have experience and have reached the magical
age of adulthood when they can enter into legally binding agreements. An
adult saying to another adult, "yes, I'll live with you and share the
responsibility of a home with you " is not the same as a child being
born into a family where the adults have already made all the decisions
about the level of cleanliness and orderliness the house should have.
Adults who agree to share responsibility do so (usually and hopefully<g>)
without a huge difference in power between the agreeing parties. Most of
us did not get married out of fear of what the other person would do if
we said "no." Most of us did not agree to whatever standard of house
keeping our partner decided upon without some discussion or out of fear.
I think that unless parents are very mindful, and even sometimes *when*
parents are very mindful children understand where the authority is and
feel compelled to comply. So I believe there is a difference. We
accept that children can't enter into legally binding agreements. The
reason there's a law is that children may be unduly influenced by a
person in a position of power and agree to something they would not have
agreed to except under pressure or that they might not have enough
experience to know the agreement was not in their best interest.
So, I don't think bringing a child into an existing situation where the
standards for clean and orderly have already been set by someone bigger
and more powerful is the same as two adults equal in the eyes of the law
deciding together to share the responsibility of a home.
But I don't think you're talking about requiring chores. You're saying
expecting kids to help isn't a bad thing. I think it *can* be bad when
there is an "or else." And I think it's a very rare situation where a
parent has an expectation of a kid and if the kid fails to meet that
expectation there is no repercussion.
But more than that I'm saying kids can learn to pick up after themselves
and others and to be thoughtful without (what could be) the pressure of
the expectations of the parent.
My thoughts about Dylan were not that he "should" learn to pick up after
himself and be helpful. My understanding was that he would see the value
of such things and choose to do them. I suspect you mean much the same
thing.
***For me, picking up after yourself isn't the same as helpfulness. I am
not trying to "teach" my kids to be helpful by expecting them to put
their
stuff away now and then ***
I think in a multi person household picking up after oneself is helpful.
<g> And I don't believe anyone can "teach" helpfulness. We can model
it and in doing so demonstrate the value of getting and giving help.
Children who live where it is modeled understand the value and determine
for themselves it's worthwhile. We can require a child to do things
that would be helpful to us but forcing a certain action is not the same
as learning. Children who are forced to be helpful don't necessarily
internalize the value of helpfulness.
***I just don't
really consider picking up ones own stuff to be "help" though.***
I would feel like Dylan was being helpful if he picked up his trains so I
could mop. Or if he put his laundry away so I could have the laundry
basket. When Dylan picks up his stuff that means I won't be picking it
up and that's helpful to me if I'm in a hurry or if I have a lot to do.
***It seems like
a natural gradual progression to get to that point unless it is stymied
by
outside forces.***
Right. Learning is natural. <g> And when unschoolers write about not
requiring chores or not having expectations of kids (the do-it-or-else
kind of expectation that you don't seem to be talking about) they are
urging parents not to be that stymieing outside force. <g>
Deb Lewis
what
seems reasonable. ***
So if a kid didn't turn on the dish washer and you had expected him to
there wouldn't be a lecture or a "you disappointed me." But I don't
think that would be the case in most families where parents have
expectations of their kids. I think if a parent was expecting a kid to
do X and the kid didn't he'd hear about it. Since that's the way it is
in most families that's what unschoolers caution against.
***Although nobody on the planet agreed to be born or which
parents to be born to <snip> so I dont really think that applies to
areas of personal care
or responsibility.***
Adults have had time here, have experience and have reached the magical
age of adulthood when they can enter into legally binding agreements. An
adult saying to another adult, "yes, I'll live with you and share the
responsibility of a home with you " is not the same as a child being
born into a family where the adults have already made all the decisions
about the level of cleanliness and orderliness the house should have.
Adults who agree to share responsibility do so (usually and hopefully<g>)
without a huge difference in power between the agreeing parties. Most of
us did not get married out of fear of what the other person would do if
we said "no." Most of us did not agree to whatever standard of house
keeping our partner decided upon without some discussion or out of fear.
I think that unless parents are very mindful, and even sometimes *when*
parents are very mindful children understand where the authority is and
feel compelled to comply. So I believe there is a difference. We
accept that children can't enter into legally binding agreements. The
reason there's a law is that children may be unduly influenced by a
person in a position of power and agree to something they would not have
agreed to except under pressure or that they might not have enough
experience to know the agreement was not in their best interest.
So, I don't think bringing a child into an existing situation where the
standards for clean and orderly have already been set by someone bigger
and more powerful is the same as two adults equal in the eyes of the law
deciding together to share the responsibility of a home.
But I don't think you're talking about requiring chores. You're saying
expecting kids to help isn't a bad thing. I think it *can* be bad when
there is an "or else." And I think it's a very rare situation where a
parent has an expectation of a kid and if the kid fails to meet that
expectation there is no repercussion.
But more than that I'm saying kids can learn to pick up after themselves
and others and to be thoughtful without (what could be) the pressure of
the expectations of the parent.
My thoughts about Dylan were not that he "should" learn to pick up after
himself and be helpful. My understanding was that he would see the value
of such things and choose to do them. I suspect you mean much the same
thing.
***For me, picking up after yourself isn't the same as helpfulness. I am
not trying to "teach" my kids to be helpful by expecting them to put
their
stuff away now and then ***
I think in a multi person household picking up after oneself is helpful.
<g> And I don't believe anyone can "teach" helpfulness. We can model
it and in doing so demonstrate the value of getting and giving help.
Children who live where it is modeled understand the value and determine
for themselves it's worthwhile. We can require a child to do things
that would be helpful to us but forcing a certain action is not the same
as learning. Children who are forced to be helpful don't necessarily
internalize the value of helpfulness.
***I just don't
really consider picking up ones own stuff to be "help" though.***
I would feel like Dylan was being helpful if he picked up his trains so I
could mop. Or if he put his laundry away so I could have the laundry
basket. When Dylan picks up his stuff that means I won't be picking it
up and that's helpful to me if I'm in a hurry or if I have a lot to do.
***It seems like
a natural gradual progression to get to that point unless it is stymied
by
outside forces.***
Right. Learning is natural. <g> And when unschoolers write about not
requiring chores or not having expectations of kids (the do-it-or-else
kind of expectation that you don't seem to be talking about) they are
urging parents not to be that stymieing outside force. <g>
Deb Lewis
Queana
Thanks, this makes a lot of sense.
~Q~
aka Sarah
http://www.unbridledlearning.com
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~Q~
aka Sarah
http://www.unbridledlearning.com
> -----Original Message-------
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Deb Lewis
> Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 6:40 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Rules vs. Expectations
>
>
> Right. Learning is natural. <g> And when unschoolers write about not
> requiring chores or not having expectations of kids (the do-it-or-else
> kind of expectation that you don't seem to be talking about) they are
> urging parents not to be that stymieing outside force. <g>
>
> Deb Lewis
>
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 3, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Queana wrote:
agreement with us isn't meant to *justify* our expectations but to
help people get inside kids heads. If we treat someone (a child) who
hasn't entered into an agreement the same as we treat someone (a
spouse) who has, it isn't reasonable to expect them to react the same
to our requests.
It's reasonable to expect kids to grow taller but if a child doesn't
meet those expectations, it doesn't affect how we parent them ;-)
though if they're beyond the bounds of what feels normal, we might
take them to the doctor.
It's reasonable to expect them to become more competent at what they
can do, to get a better grasp on how the world works and what is
necessary to keep a home functioning. But if they don't meet our
expectations ... what? Conventional parenting would blame the child.
Or the adult for not teaching them properly. Better -- in terms of
creating a great relationship -- is to trust our kids that they're
doing their best and to look to the environment that might be holding
them back or expectations that might be unreasonable.
responsibility for themselves. It's natural.
stuff it's my standards I'm imposing. If she cleans up her space I
might say "Cool!" or "Good going, that was a big job," or something
that I might say to my husband for something similar.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Although nobody on the planet agreed to be born or whichThe point of view of recognizing children didn't enter into an
> parents to be born to (or did they... but that's a totally different
> conversation) so I don�t really think that applies to areas of
> personal care
> or responsibility.
agreement with us isn't meant to *justify* our expectations but to
help people get inside kids heads. If we treat someone (a child) who
hasn't entered into an agreement the same as we treat someone (a
spouse) who has, it isn't reasonable to expect them to react the same
to our requests.
It's reasonable to expect kids to grow taller but if a child doesn't
meet those expectations, it doesn't affect how we parent them ;-)
though if they're beyond the bounds of what feels normal, we might
take them to the doctor.
It's reasonable to expect them to become more competent at what they
can do, to get a better grasp on how the world works and what is
necessary to keep a home functioning. But if they don't meet our
expectations ... what? Conventional parenting would blame the child.
Or the adult for not teaching them properly. Better -- in terms of
creating a great relationship -- is to trust our kids that they're
doing their best and to look to the environment that might be holding
them back or expectations that might be unreasonable.
> We've always just had the assumption in our family that people as theyYes, if the environment is there to encourage it, they will take more
> get older gradually take on more personal responsibility for their
> bodies
> and their surroundings.
responsibility for themselves. It's natural.
> I don't think I "deserve" help. I enjoy help when it comes. I justI thank my daughter for picking her stuff up because even if it's her
> don't
> really consider picking up ones own stuff to be "help" though.
> It's just
> part of growing up and maturing. When they're little they need
> help with
> *everything* - butt wiping, tooth brushing, feeding, dressing, etc.
> etc.
stuff it's my standards I'm imposing. If she cleans up her space I
might say "Cool!" or "Good going, that was a big job," or something
that I might say to my husband for something similar.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]