Unschooling vs. parenting
Ren Allen
"I have read, and not participated much, on unschooling lists for
several years because that is where (on the internet) I found people
most in line with my philosophy towards my children. But I've
always been a little bit baffled by the implication that unschooling
is the only way to have that kind of relationship with your kids,
and that lack of curriculum necessarily goes along with lack of
rules so to speak."
I don't think anyone has ever implied that unschooling is the only way
to have a great relationship with their children. I think that it's
highly implied that mindful parenting IS absolutely the BETTER way.
And how mindful is it to force your child into school? (the average
parent)
How many of those schooled children have a choice to be there or not?
I'd just about bet that yours were probably the only ones in that
particular school...maybe not. How mindful is it to force a person to
spend all day in a place they might not care for. Or not even to share
all the options with them? I understand that most of those parents are
uninformed themselves, but I don't see how you can equate your
children (who had a choice) to the average schooled child.
Everything you've written about your family is the same ideals that
most radical unschoolers value. A child choosing school or not, is a
non-issue really. Unschooling hinges on great parenting, does it not?
A parent that pushes subjects or "teaches" their children (without the
child asking), really isn't trusting their abilities. No, I don't
think it's as respectful.
As far as expectations....all that you listed is about expecting good
of each other. That falls under personal boundaries to me. I try NOT
to hold expectations because that attaches me to a certain version of
reality and has potential to cause suffering. It's not that we don't
assume certain things will happen in our families, it's that "fluid"
part you mentioned that is so important. Expectations often set up
families for failure. Going with the flow and trusting that each
person is doing their best in the moment works much better in my opinion.
I have a friend that is a very mindful person over all. She's very
peaceful and gentle and really listens to people. She's very
respectful to children...mostly.
BUT, her kids HATE school. They've begged her to homeschool every
year. Her oldest absolutely detests band, but is forced to continue.
Every time he was at our house he would tell Trevor how lucky he is.
She was undermining that relationship. She was devaluing his desires.
Do I think he'll be fine in the long run? Sure. He's loved and
nurtured and trusted in many areas. He's a great kid.
Unschooling isn't about what works or doesn't work...it's about what
is OPTIMAL. I believe it is optimal to completely trust my child
about all of their learning experiences. I think this family would be
MUCH better of to trust their children. I also believe he'll go on to
live a very happy and successful life.
It's not about end results though...unschooling says the journey and
the trust and the relationships are ultimate. I believe that.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
several years because that is where (on the internet) I found people
most in line with my philosophy towards my children. But I've
always been a little bit baffled by the implication that unschooling
is the only way to have that kind of relationship with your kids,
and that lack of curriculum necessarily goes along with lack of
rules so to speak."
I don't think anyone has ever implied that unschooling is the only way
to have a great relationship with their children. I think that it's
highly implied that mindful parenting IS absolutely the BETTER way.
And how mindful is it to force your child into school? (the average
parent)
How many of those schooled children have a choice to be there or not?
I'd just about bet that yours were probably the only ones in that
particular school...maybe not. How mindful is it to force a person to
spend all day in a place they might not care for. Or not even to share
all the options with them? I understand that most of those parents are
uninformed themselves, but I don't see how you can equate your
children (who had a choice) to the average schooled child.
Everything you've written about your family is the same ideals that
most radical unschoolers value. A child choosing school or not, is a
non-issue really. Unschooling hinges on great parenting, does it not?
A parent that pushes subjects or "teaches" their children (without the
child asking), really isn't trusting their abilities. No, I don't
think it's as respectful.
As far as expectations....all that you listed is about expecting good
of each other. That falls under personal boundaries to me. I try NOT
to hold expectations because that attaches me to a certain version of
reality and has potential to cause suffering. It's not that we don't
assume certain things will happen in our families, it's that "fluid"
part you mentioned that is so important. Expectations often set up
families for failure. Going with the flow and trusting that each
person is doing their best in the moment works much better in my opinion.
I have a friend that is a very mindful person over all. She's very
peaceful and gentle and really listens to people. She's very
respectful to children...mostly.
BUT, her kids HATE school. They've begged her to homeschool every
year. Her oldest absolutely detests band, but is forced to continue.
Every time he was at our house he would tell Trevor how lucky he is.
She was undermining that relationship. She was devaluing his desires.
Do I think he'll be fine in the long run? Sure. He's loved and
nurtured and trusted in many areas. He's a great kid.
Unschooling isn't about what works or doesn't work...it's about what
is OPTIMAL. I believe it is optimal to completely trust my child
about all of their learning experiences. I think this family would be
MUCH better of to trust their children. I also believe he'll go on to
live a very happy and successful life.
It's not about end results though...unschooling says the journey and
the trust and the relationships are ultimate. I believe that.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Queana
> -----Original Message-----[***]
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:06 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Unschooling vs. parenting
>
> "I have read, and not participated much, on unschooling lists for
> several years because that is where (on the internet) I found people
> most in line with my philosophy towards my children. But I've
> always been a little bit baffled by the implication that unschooling
> is the only way to have that kind of relationship with your kids,
> and that lack of curriculum necessarily goes along with lack of
> rules so to speak."
>
> I don't think anyone has ever implied that unschooling is the only way
> to have a great relationship with their children. I think that it's
> highly implied that mindful parenting IS absolutely the BETTER way.
> And how mindful is it to force your child into school? (the average
> parent)
>
> How many of those schooled children have a choice to be there or not?
> I'd just about bet that yours were probably the only ones in that
> particular school...maybe not. How mindful is it to force a person to
> spend all day in a place they might not care for. Or not even to share
> all the options with them? I understand that most of those parents are
> uninformed themselves, but I don't see how you can equate your
> children (who had a choice) to the average schooled child.
>
[***] True, my kids were probably the only kids there with the choice. I
definitely agree that the average parents is not mindful. I just don't see
the automatic connection between Unschooling and mindfulness.
> Everything you've written about your family is the same ideals that[***] I agree.
> most radical unschoolers value. A child choosing school or not, is a
> non-issue really. Unschooling hinges on great parenting, does it not?
> A parent that pushes subjects or "teaches" their children (without the
> child asking), really isn't trusting their abilities. No, I don't
> think it's as respectful.
>
> As far as expectations....all that you listed is about expecting good[***] Good point about expectations potentially leading to suffering. Is
> of each other. That falls under personal boundaries to me. I try NOT
> to hold expectations because that attaches me to a certain version of
> reality and has potential to cause suffering. It's not that we don't
> assume certain things will happen in our families, it's that "fluid"
> part you mentioned that is so important. Expectations often set up
> families for failure. Going with the flow and trusting that each
> person is doing their best in the moment works much better in my opinion.
>
there a difference between that and having personal boundaries being
breached leading to suffering?
> I have a friend that is a very mindful person over all. She's very[***] That sucks. Not the great kid part <g>
> peaceful and gentle and really listens to people. She's very
> respectful to children...mostly.
> BUT, her kids HATE school. They've begged her to homeschool every
> year. Her oldest absolutely detests band, but is forced to continue.
> Every time he was at our house he would tell Trevor how lucky he is.
>
> She was undermining that relationship. She was devaluing his desires.
> Do I think he'll be fine in the long run? Sure. He's loved and
> nurtured and trusted in many areas. He's a great kid.
> Unschooling isn't about what works or doesn't work...it's about what[***] I agree. Thanks for your thought!
> is OPTIMAL. I believe it is optimal to completely trust my child
> about all of their learning experiences. I think this family would be
> MUCH better of to trust their children. I also believe he'll go on to
> live a very happy and successful life.
> It's not about end results though...unschooling says the journey and
> the trust and the relationships are ultimate. I believe that.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
>
~Q~
aka Sarah
http://www.unbridledlearning.com
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Ren Allen
"[***] Good point about expectations potentially leading to suffering.
Is there a difference between that and having personal boundaries
being breached leading to suffering?"
I don't believe so. Let me clarify.:)
For me, the expectation thing (not really the way you defined it, but
expectations in general) is very related to the buddhist idea of
non-attachment. Non-attachment is a very open way of seeing the
world. It's an understanding that the people I love today, will not be
the same people tomorrow. So if I'm not attached to this idea of
who-they-are, I can simply love them in all their fluidity.
Life is change. Being attached to an idea or person or reality is an
expectation to me. Non-attachment allows me to love more fully,
because I'm not being stuck on a certain version of something that
reality may not fulfill. It's a very simple, but very difficult
concept to understand at it's core. The very fact that I'm writing
about it here, makes it a non-truth. Because to me, what I'm trying to
speak is MY truth and my truth is something I had to find in the core
of MY being. I can't speak it for someone else. I can't make anyone
understand in words, what is my understanding (sound familiar?:).
Other people's writings and truth and learning has helped me find it
within myself. But like unschooling, spirituality has to be found
within or it's just an empty echo of someone elses truth. Mentors can
push us or help us, but it comes down to what is in US as individuals.
Anyhoo, all of this babble is just to try and explain how I feel about
the idea of expectations. I try NOT to have expectations of this day
(though I do believe that the sun will rise because it has every other
day of my life) because if reality does not meet expectation, that
will lead to suffering.
If I am open, fluid like a river, then I can bend with the moment,
simply accepting it for what it IS, not what I expect it to be. I
believe that's the best way to view those I love also.
A personal boundary being breached may be cause to use words or
actions to make it right again, but once again, I'm not attached to a
certain outcome or idea, so I can adapt to the circumstance appropriately.
I'm not saying I am able to do this all the time. It is something I
try for.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Is there a difference between that and having personal boundaries
being breached leading to suffering?"
I don't believe so. Let me clarify.:)
For me, the expectation thing (not really the way you defined it, but
expectations in general) is very related to the buddhist idea of
non-attachment. Non-attachment is a very open way of seeing the
world. It's an understanding that the people I love today, will not be
the same people tomorrow. So if I'm not attached to this idea of
who-they-are, I can simply love them in all their fluidity.
Life is change. Being attached to an idea or person or reality is an
expectation to me. Non-attachment allows me to love more fully,
because I'm not being stuck on a certain version of something that
reality may not fulfill. It's a very simple, but very difficult
concept to understand at it's core. The very fact that I'm writing
about it here, makes it a non-truth. Because to me, what I'm trying to
speak is MY truth and my truth is something I had to find in the core
of MY being. I can't speak it for someone else. I can't make anyone
understand in words, what is my understanding (sound familiar?:).
Other people's writings and truth and learning has helped me find it
within myself. But like unschooling, spirituality has to be found
within or it's just an empty echo of someone elses truth. Mentors can
push us or help us, but it comes down to what is in US as individuals.
Anyhoo, all of this babble is just to try and explain how I feel about
the idea of expectations. I try NOT to have expectations of this day
(though I do believe that the sun will rise because it has every other
day of my life) because if reality does not meet expectation, that
will lead to suffering.
If I am open, fluid like a river, then I can bend with the moment,
simply accepting it for what it IS, not what I expect it to be. I
believe that's the best way to view those I love also.
A personal boundary being breached may be cause to use words or
actions to make it right again, but once again, I'm not attached to a
certain outcome or idea, so I can adapt to the circumstance appropriately.
I'm not saying I am able to do this all the time. It is something I
try for.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~For the first time, that made sense lol. So basically what you're
saying is that learning how to be in a family and be in relationships
and live with other people is part of learning so it's part of
Unschooling. Is that right?~
EXACTLY!!!:)
Learning is learning to me.
Learning about how to interact with other humans, learning how your
body feels when you eat certain foods (or don't eat), learning how to
do household tasks etc....is ALL simply learning (aka; unschooling).
How can you say that you trust your child to learn what they want,
when they want and then say "but I don't trust you to eat what you
want, when you want"
THAT is learning also.
Everything is learning. Separating certain kinds of learning seems
very strange to me.
Kelly and I did an unschooling basics talk at Peabody together. One of
her posts here was all about trusting children in ALL areas and how
ridiculous it seems to try and divide what KINDS of learning you trust
your child in. I'll try to find it. Good stuff.
saying is that learning how to be in a family and be in relationships
and live with other people is part of learning so it's part of
Unschooling. Is that right?~
EXACTLY!!!:)
Learning is learning to me.
Learning about how to interact with other humans, learning how your
body feels when you eat certain foods (or don't eat), learning how to
do household tasks etc....is ALL simply learning (aka; unschooling).
How can you say that you trust your child to learn what they want,
when they want and then say "but I don't trust you to eat what you
want, when you want"
THAT is learning also.
Everything is learning. Separating certain kinds of learning seems
very strange to me.
Kelly and I did an unschooling basics talk at Peabody together. One of
her posts here was all about trusting children in ALL areas and how
ridiculous it seems to try and divide what KINDS of learning you trust
your child in. I'll try to find it. Good stuff.
Pamela Sorooshian
> "I have read, and not participated much, on unschooling lists forNo implication intended, on my part.
> several years because that is where (on the internet) I found people
> most in line with my philosophy towards my children. But I've
> always been a little bit baffled by the implication that unschooling
> is the only way to have that kind of relationship with your kids,
> and that lack of curriculum necessarily goes along with lack of
> rules so to speak."
I wish people wouldn't read things into what is actually said - we
radical unschoolers tend to be very blunt and maybe a little literal
- we don't tend to leave things to "implication," but say them
straight out.
People with kids in school can have absolutely wonderful
relationships with their kids. I happen to think it takes a bit of
luck and a TON of awareness and effort on the part of parents to make
that happen - just because school is so invasive and hard on family
lives - soaks up so much time and, through homework, so often puts
parents in the role of 'enforcer.' But I know wonderful families with
kids in school - I would never say that it couldn't be done.
Unschooling can lead to more than not using a curriculum, though.
Once people trust kids to learn to read in their own way, in their
own time, it seems natural that they begin to think they can trust
kids in many more ways. One thing does lead to another, for many
unschoolers.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
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