gvrcdkv

Hello Everybody,
My name is Carolyn. I have a hypothetical question intending to
elicit suggestions on parenting a toddler with compassion based on
unschooling principles. How can I dampen frustration for my two and
a half year old son, (or for myself), and effectively guide him in
situations where (for example) his own instincts (at the moment)
would lead him to run on a wet marble floor, prefer his chicken
uncooked, leave his teeth unbrushed, or (again hypothetically) say,
refuse a needed medication, or run into the street. I'm sure you can
imagine a number more examples varying in level of urgency. I don't
normally ascribe to the "irrational child" designation as I have
found my children to be very responsive to reason and capable of
making intelligent choices. There are times, however, where either I
am tied up and unable to stop and guide my children in this way in
time, or where they (like sometimes I) have a hard few moments, or
where they just seem to lack some necessary bit of background
information (i.e. re: salmonella poisoning). In some cases there
seems to be a rather immediate safety or health issue; in others a
less immmediate one like in the case of toothbrushing. How can I
balance protecting my child with my wish to allow him to flourish as
an empowered decision maker, and what method of "pulling rank" (if
you would) would you consider the least damaging or disrespectful? I
didn't notice a way to access archives on this list and hope my
question is not redundant. Thanks for your time and service.
Carolyn Valdivieso

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 30, 2006, at 7:41 PM, gvrcdkv wrote:

> My name is Carolyn. I have a hypothetical question intending to
> elicit suggestions on parenting a toddler with compassion based on
> unschooling principles. How can I dampen frustration for my two and
> a half year old son, (or for myself), and effectively guide him in
> situations where (for example) his own instincts (at the moment)
> would lead him to run on a wet marble floor,

Hi Carolyn -- Can you give a real, not hypothetical example?

If a kid is running on wet marble floors because it is fun - he's
slipping and sliding and giggling and wanting to do it, that is a
whole different situation from a kid who is running because he's
trying to get away from someone or because he's in a hurry to get
somewhere or ......

Give us a real situation and we can talk about that in a really
useful way - but hypothetical situations don't work well in this kind
of discussion, too many opportunities to say, "Yeah, but....".

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: gvrcdkv <gvrcdk@...>


Hello Everybody,
My name is Carolyn. I have a hypothetical question intending to
elicit suggestions on parenting a toddler with compassion based on
unschooling principles. How can I dampen frustration for my two and
a half year old son, (or for myself), and effectively guide him in
situations where (for example) his own instincts (at the moment)
would lead him to run on a wet marble floor, prefer his chicken
uncooked, leave his teeth unbrushed, or (again hypothetically) say,
refuse a needed medication, or run into the street. I'm sure you can
imagine a number more examples varying in level of urgency.

-=-=-

Can you use real examples of issues you have already had to deal with?

We're not so good with hypotheticals.

-=-=-=-=-

I don't
normally ascribe to the "irrational child" designation as I have
found my children to be very responsive to reason and capable of
making intelligent choices.

-=-=-=-

That's why hypotheticals aren't very good for explaining. *Most*
children---most people! are very responsive to reason and capable of
making intelligent choices. If we see them that way, then it's easier
to accept that, when they make bad choices, they are not experienced
enough or simply don't have the tools to make a better choice. It's
nice to see them as beings who are doing their best at all times.

-=-=-=-=-

There are times, however, where either I
am tied up and unable to stop and guide my children in this way in
time, or where they (like sometimes I) have a hard few moments, or
where they just seem to lack some necessary bit of background
information (i.e. re: salmonella poisoning).

-=-=-=-

Does one really want to eat raw chicken? I can eat raw beef (with lots
of spices and stuff in steak tartar) and raw tuna (in sushi or
sashimi), but I draw a very thick line at chicken---YUCK! It has
nothing to do with salmonella---just YUCK! <G> But would that be a real
possibility?

-=-=-=-

How can I
balance protecting my child with my wish to allow him to flourish as
an empowered decision maker,

-=-=-=-

I think a lot of that boils down to trust. Make sure he has as much
info as possible. He will want to do what's best for him. He may make a
mistake---or better: a *learning-take*---and learn from that. But he'll
learn.

-=-=-==-

and what method of "pulling rank" (if
you would) would you consider the least damaging or disrespectful?

-=-=-=-

Goodness! I can't think of any times we've actually pulled rank. Maybe
our only rule here: no running around the pool? But you'd have to see
our pool deck! <g>

And we've had some pretty big issues. We talk a LOT. I give my opinion
quite freely! <G> Mostly I want them to *think* before doing. If they
think hard about it and still decide that it's the best thing for them,
I can't---well, I guess I *could* stop them! But then it's just about
power and control.Eventually, I won't be able to stop them! <g> But I
think it's really important to make informed decisions. Sometimes *I*
may be misinformed: they will do some research into the matter and
change *my* mind! <G>

But they're learning and experimenting. They need that space. When
they're littler, I can protect them within a certain area (physical or
emotional), but as they grow, their space gets bigger and bigger. The
more little learning-takes they make early, the fewer big mistakes
they'll make later.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I didn't notice a way to access archives on this list

-=-=-=-

If you go to the yahoo site, you can click on "Messages"---then to make
it easier, click on "Expand Messages". You can go back to the very
first message or pick and choose your way around.

-=-=-=-=-

and hope my
question is not redundant. Thanks for your time and service.

-=-=-=-

I don't think there are many "new" questions here. But that's OK!
Really. <g>

You're welcome! Glad you're here!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 30, 2006, at 10:41 PM, gvrcdkv wrote:

> There are times, however, where either I
> am tied up and unable to stop and guide my children in this way in
> time, or where they (like sometimes I) have a hard few moments, or
> where they just seem to lack some necessary bit of background
> information (i.e. re: salmonella poisoning).

So what you're looking for is a substitute mom -- like a rule! --
that kids can carry around when you can't be with them ;-)

No, our job is to protect them. We need to make their environment
safe enough for them to explore in.

If you don't leave raw chicken where a toddler can grab it, then
there's no need for a rule or a principle (eating healthful things or
something) that they aren't ready to grasp.

> I have a hypothetical question intending to
> elicit suggestions on parenting a toddler with compassion based on
> unschooling principles.

We need real situations because it's *why* something is happening
that's important not *what*. Why is the toddler running on a wet
floor? Why doesn't the toddler want to brush his teeth? Why is he
running into the street?

If they're doing something unsafe that they can't grasp the hazards
of we need to be with them or keep them away until they can understand.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jul 1, 2006, at 4:24 AM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> And we've had some pretty big issues. We talk a LOT. I give my opinion
> quite freely! <G> Mostly I want them to *think* before doing. If they
> think hard about it and still decide that it's the best thing for
> them,
> I can't---well, I guess I *could* stop them! But then it's just about
> power and control.Eventually, I won't be able to stop them! <g> But I
> think it's really important to make informed decisions. Sometimes *I*
> may be misinformed: they will do some research into the matter and
> change *my* mind! <G>

Kelly makes such a good point - you won't be able to "control" them
when the issues get really big - sex, drugs, driving, and so on.
People who think they are "controlling" their teenagers, especially
once they can drive, are lying to themselves.

So - instead of relying on control when they're younger, start
relying then on mutual respect. By the time they are teenagers
they'll CARE about your opinion enough to at least thoughtfully
consider it. AND - they'll keep talking to you, not try to hide
things. And, occasionally, but only very occasionally, you can say,
"Please take my word for this. You know I haven't insisted on my way,
haven't tried to control you, but this is something that I feel
really strongly about and I'm asking you to do it (or not do it) on
the basis of trusting me."

The best way to build that trust is to practice it. So when children
are little, be SUPER open to their ideas - try hard to support them,
not to be pooh-poohing them, not to be the person always "setting
boundaries" or saying, "No, don't do that."

If a kid wants to run and slide on a slippery floor -- help make that
happen safely - maybe a slip-n-slide in the yard would work. If a kid
wants to eat raw chicken, talk about why and see if there would be
some way to satisfy his/her wants. My kids wanted to eat raw cookie
dough (who doesn't? <G>) but I don't like to see them eat raw eggs -
so we'd make some of the cookie dough without eggs - just dumping a
bit of it into a separate bowl.

Clearly we are going to keep our kids safe. If my 2 year old is
running toward a busy street, I'll sweep her up in my arms and hug
her and say, "Run over here - this is safer." And I'll be more
careful not to be standing around near a busy street, in the future.
Mostly, with younger kids, it is better to control the environment,
rather than the child, to the maximum extent possible.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Trudy

Hi, Carolyn -

Because every household is as different as the unique individuals in
it, you will get differing points of view to questions here.

When it comes to very young children, although we try to show by
example and explain with words the "pros and cons" or the "safety vs.
danger" of something and suggest alternatives in order to meet the
need(s) of that child, there will be times when you will have to do
something the child does not agree with or like.

As an example, a good friend of mine had a child who hated being
strapped in his car seat and would fight because he wanted to be out
loose in the seat while traveling. Although some may allow this
practice, my friend felt it safer for her child to be buckled in.
She required it, he did not agree with it or choose it, but it had to
be.

Our son (4 at the time) had to be hospitalized for several days last
year due to an infection in his lymph node in his neck. It was
severe, and he had to be on IV antibiotics for several days to
prevent the infection from spreading through his system. He had to
have blood drawn daily, and when he would see the people coming in to
draw blood, he started crying and dreaded it. As much as I wanted to,
I could not prevent this from happening. If our son would have been
given a choice, he would not have had his blood drawn nor had the IV
for the medication, but it had to be.

These are just a couple of examples of instances when young children
may not totally understand the "good" that is being forced upon them
but to let them choose what they want would be detrimental.

Just as children learn and understand other things as they get older,
they will come to learn and understand why they are sometimes not
permitted to do something. When my son is a teen and we discuss his
hospital experience, he will not resent the fact that we allowed him
to have IV's and blood drawn, although he didn't want it done. I
believe the same goes for the wet floor scenario, the teeth-brushing
scenario, etc. As they grow and mature they will see the value in
these things and will understand why you want it done/not done (i.e.
teeth brushed, no running on wet floors, etc).


Trudy Powell

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jul 1, 2006, at 12:49 PM, Trudy wrote:

> I could not prevent this from happening. If our son would have been
> given a choice, he would not have had his blood drawn nor had the IV
> for the medication, but it had to be.

The principle is to support the child's interests to the maximum
degree reasonably possible.

In this case, there are so many things a parent might do - but most
parents would simply say, "Sorry, kid, it's gotta be done," and let
the medical people have at it.

There are a lot of possibilities in between "it has to be done" and
"let the child choose not to do it at all." If we are committed to
maximum possible respect of the child's wishes, we're more likely to
come up with creative ideas that, at least, make things better for
the child.

That's why we sort of have to know the real situation - hypothetical
ones don't give us enough information about the real situation to
help find ways to respond beyond "allow it" or "don't allow it." We
need to know things about the child - what is he feeling - scared,
hurt? How are the medical people approaching it - what is the
environment like. Did mom try sitting him on her lap and reading to
him or singing to him while the procedure took place? Did anybody ASK
whether there was any other possible way - or whether it could
possibly be done less often? Did the child know the parents had asked
and were trying to find an alternative. And, sometimes just knowing
parents are on your side is helpful--it can feel to the child like
the parents are on the medical staff side - keeping in mind the child
doesn't necessarily understand much besides that the medical people
are hurting or scaring him.

Will it EVER happen that circumstances will arise that we'll insist
our kids do something or not do something? Probably. But if we
operate on that principle - that we, as parents, have to make our
kids do things or not do things, it is so very easy to get into the
habit of taking what seems to be the easy way - ordering our kids
around, controlling their behavior, etc.


>
> These are just a couple of examples of instances when young children
> may not totally understand the "good" that is being forced upon them
> but to let them choose what they want would be detrimental.

There are an infinite number of situations, though, in which we can
always rationalize not giving kids a choice "for their own good."
Better to still TRY to be the child's partner, rather than use your
power to control them.

Sometimes it doesn't work - but the attitude that we're going to
truly try our best to make it work counts for a lot. In some ways,
what happens is we build up credit and there are times we can say,
"Honey, please trust me on this one - I can't figure out any other way."


>
> Just as children learn and understand other things as they get older,
> they will come to learn and understand why they are sometimes not
> permitted to do something.

True. But how cool for them to come to understand that his/her
parents did everything possible to support him and help him, not
control him.

> When my son is a teen and we discuss his
> hospital experience, he will not resent the fact that we allowed him
> to have IV's and blood drawn, although he didn't want it done. I
> believe the same goes for the wet floor scenario, the teeth-brushing
> scenario, etc. As they grow and mature they will see the value in
> these things and will understand why you want it done/not done (i.e.
> teeth brushed, no running on wet floors, etc).

Usually happens. But also what "usually" happens is that parents get
used to having power over their kids and they use that power when
other alternatives could have been found AND what "usually" happens
is that kids hit their teens and resent parents for continuing to try
to control them and they have lots of power struggles and it
interferes with their relationship JUST at the time when kids really
most need to have open and honest and trusting relationships with
adults.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Trudy

Pam -

In ralation to the case I mentioned about my son having to be
hospitalized last year and having to have unpleasant procedures done
(i.e. IV's, blood drawn) you said,

"In this case, there are so many things a parent might do - but most
parents would simply say, "Sorry, kid, it's gotta be done," and let
the medical people have at it."
-----------

I'm sorry if this sounds odd, but what kind of people have you had
the misfortune to be around? I can personally think of no one who
would cop this kind of attitude when their child was going through
such fear and torment. YIKES!

-----------

I don't really get this when you said...

"That's why we sort of have to know the real situation -hypothetical
ones don't give us enough information about the real situation to
help find ways to respond beyond "allow it" or "don't allow it." We
need to know things about the child - what is he feeling - scared,
hurt? How are the medical people approaching it - what is the
environment like. Did mom try sitting him on her lap and reading to
him or singing to him while the procedure took place? Did anybody ASK
whether there was any other possible way - or whether it could
possibly be done less often? Did the child know the parents had
asked and were trying to find an alternative. And, sometimes just
knowing parents are on your side is helpful--it can feel to the child
like the parents are on the medical staff side - keeping in mind the
child doesn't necessarily understand much besides that the medical
people are hurting or scaring him."

Well, this wasn't a hypothetical situation, but here is more
information so you can know... Yes, my son was very sick, very
scared. The doctor thought oral medication would take care of it,
but I could tell it wasn't working and something needed to be done.
I kept calling the office and they couldn't get me in until later in
the afternoon, so my husband and I drove to the office and "camped
out" there until they could see us. Doctor took one look and
immediately admitted son to the hospital.

Did Braden know we were on his side? Yes, he heard me making
numerous calls to the doctor. I held him on my lap hugging him and
singing into his ear as he was "poked and prodded", saying, "Mommy's
here, mommy's here," crying with him as he cried.

To be honest, I did what most every mom or dad would do in those
circumstances. Again, I don't know what kind of cold people you're
referring to, but I know of no one who would act in such a manner.

------------
You made the comment...

"Better to still TRY to be the child's partner, rather than use your
power to control them. Sometimes it doesn't work - but the attitude
that we're going to truly try our best to make it work counts for a
lot. In some ways, what happens is we build up credit and there are
times we can say, "Honey, please trust me on this one - I can't
figure out any other way."

That's exactly how we operate around here, and I'm truly at a loss as
to why you would assume otherwise.

------------
You commented in you post...

"What "usually" happens is that parents get used to having power over
their kids and they use that power when other alternatives could have
been found AND what "usually" happens is that kids hit their teens
and resent parents for continuing to try to control them and they
have lots of power struggles and it interferes with their
relationship JUST at the time when kids really most need to have open
and honest and trusting relationships with adults."

This hasn't been something we are familiar with here in our circle of
acquaintances, so as far as we're concerned personally, it
doesn't "usually" happen. Was this your own personal experience and
that of many you know?

I have to admit, it's really weird to think that you must believe
that we aren't our kids' most staunch allies, their biggest
cheerleaders. Why would you insinuate that?

We have three children, aged almost 9, 7, and 5. My saying to them,
almost daily, is (as an example), "You're my favorite 5-year-old boy
in the whole wide world." He truly is! And my almost 9-year-old is
my favorite, and my 7 year-old is my favorite -- all in their own,
wonderful, unique way. I am soooo blessed!


Trudy Powell

Melissa

I really and totally didn't get that she was saying that about
*you*. I have seen many MANY parents who are loving and considerate,
but who have said "When my kid gets his shots, I have to leave the
room because the screaming is awful". Being part of a disability
group, I hear over and over again about how we have to "force" our
kids to do therapy, or they'll never learn, or they'll never adapt,
or we can't "cure" them. It happens a lot. These are parents who love
and cherish their children, and think they are doing the best thing
for them. I've had to cut back on how many calls I take though,
because I can't handle the questions about 'what do you do when you
drop your kids off for therapy and they cry?', or "They scream every
time the bus shows up, but they HAVE to go...what choice do I have?'
As an official speaker for a national group I can't promote
unschooling, but I sure want to!

More real stories, no hypothetical...my friends son had cancer (two
months officially 'cured' Yay! after two years of treatment and one
of remission). We would go up to visit him, and there would be many
many children left at the center alone. Some had families that had to
work and it was easier to leave them there alone to do treatments and
come back and pick up on a break. There was one family where the dad
would gruffly say, 'Just get over it, you have months of this to
do....stop crying!'

So yeah, there are many people out there like that. They are so
disconnected from their children, from their own compassion, and are
protecting themselves emotionally at the cost of their child and the
relationship with that child. In years to come, I'm sure the child
will legitimize it. My mom was mentally ill and abused me. I
legitimized if for 20 years. It happens.

But again, I never read that Pam was connecting you to those kind of
people. Just saying that there are very positive connected ways to
help your children through things that "must" be done.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Jul 1, 2006, at 10:06 PM, Trudy wrote:

> Pam -
> <snip>
>
> I'm sorry if this sounds odd, but what kind of people have you had
> the misfortune to be around? I can personally think of no one who
> would cop this kind of attitude when their child was going through
> such fear and torment. YIKES!
>
> -----------
>
> I don't really get this when you said...
> <and snip again>
> To be honest, I did what most every mom or dad would do in those
> circumstances. Again, I don't know what kind of cold people you're
> referring to, but I know of no one who would act in such a manner.
>
> ------------
> You made the comment...
>
> "Better to still TRY to be the child's partner, rather than use your
> power to control them. Sometimes it doesn't work - but the attitude
> that we're going to truly try our best to make it work counts for a
> lot. In some ways, what happens is we build up credit and there are
> times we can say, "Honey, please trust me on this one - I can't
> figure out any other way."
>
> That's exactly how we operate around here, and I'm truly at a loss as
> to why you would assume otherwise.
>
> ------------



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Valdivieso Family

Hi again and thanks for your responses.

Actually, the examples were mostly true. My son prefers his food
frozen and unheated. I do give him waffles and French fries this way. His
chicken nuggets look the same to him frozen and cooked, so he becomes upset
each time I refuse to give him these to eat directly from the freezer. I
have tried to explain the difference to him, but it's hard for him to get
past his initial frustration at being told that I can't give it to him raw.
I suppose I could cook a few and then refreeze them for him. I have felt a
need to force my children (toddlers) to take un-tasty medication
(antibiotics) after attempts to make it seem more palatable failed, and
attempts to explain its purpose didn't impress them enough to make them take
it willingly. I hated doing this. The running into the street example was
made up, but I do worry all the time when my son runs on uneven concrete (on
our way to the park, where there is more grass). It really is hard for him
to delay the running until we get to the park, especially because he is so
excited to get there.

No matter how much I try to empower/recognize my preschool age children
as a general rule, I do find situations where I feel I need to make the
decision for them, or otherwise, I hear myself nagging them. This strikes
me as a little hypocritical and I worry that they're sure to catch on that
sometimes what they would have themselves do can get overruled by me. And
the nagging makes me feel stupid. I am aware that this points to a family
hierarchy which I wish I could balance a little more in their favors. I
find myself trying to represent natural consequences for them so that they
don't have to split their skulls or get sick to learn from their mistakes
(They're still so young). Of course this makes me the bad guy, and sets me
up as the enemy. I admit that in my previous post (in addition to attempting
to hybrid examples to avoid being verbose (like I am now)) I tried to
represent a range of examples in search of some kind of theoretical
unschooling maxim or strategy that I might apply in more than a few
situations like this that seem to come up. I liked the responses suggesting
that I hug and redirect the baby, and the suggestion to control the
environment rather than the child. I do feel responsible for their safety
at this point in time. I suppose if I had a little more time (I have a new
infant at home, the third baby) I could come up with a creative solution for
each case.

The problem with the tooth brushing, for example, probably happens when my
son feels he is being interrupted in some play or project, in spite of my
trying to give him some notice and then suggest him into the bathroom as the
family prepares to shut the house down and go to sleep. I don't feel I can
let him stay awake alone for safety reasons and I do think the tooth
brushing is important. As he needs help brushing his teeth, I try to fit
him into a slot for it as I juggle the needs of my other children at that
time of day too. We probably need to redevelop our bedtime routine to make
it more positive for everyone now that the infant also requires my
assistance. This example, I think, also brings up the question of
convenience, and the legitimacy of expecting the children to adjust to my
needs, or the needs of each other, as I often adjust to theirs. I would
appreciate comments on how children would learn to do this voluntarily.

I would also appreciate comments on whether and to what extent you believe
that the application of unschooling principles differs or remains constant
depending on the age of the children. I find this a hard question because
there is obviously no cut and dry line or "age of reason" for children, and
they grow at their own paces in so many different ways. My parents always
told me that I would earn the right to make my own decisions by first making
good decisions and I always hated that. I would like to encourage my
children to feel autonomous, yet interdependent on family, as young as
possible. I'm having trouble seeing how to strike this balance and create
this understanding. It seems to me that whatever I can say about toddlers
to try and cite "special circumstances" (such as the children's own
inexperience, safety reasons, or convenience) as a justification for "having
the final say". that it would be easy to make similar arguments with older
children in cases where I feel myself to be more experienced. Where would
it end?... it probably would not be unschooling. Yet my questions still
remain. Thanks again in advance for any insights.

Carolyn Valdivieso









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jul 1, 2006, at 8:06 PM, Trudy wrote:

> To be honest, I did what most every mom or dad would do in those
> circumstances. Again, I don't know what kind of cold people you're
> referring to, but I know of no one who would act in such a manner.

I wish I thought you were right - but I think it is unusual for
parents to step in and take any kind of role at all - I think most
parents simply let the medical personnel handle things. I know,
personally, of parents who have stayed out in the waiting room during
procedures, specifically because THEY couldn't stand to see their
child suffer. I know parents who have had nurses hold their kicking
and screaming kid down to do procedures.

Rosie "needed" to have a procedure when she was 5 - they first told
me I couldn't be in the room. I argued and insisted on talking
directly to the doctor doing the procedure. He said it would be okay.
Then they didn't want to give her pain meds and I talked to the
doctor, again, and asked what all the possibilities were and why they
weren't going to use them, etc. He ended up talking to me about
alternatives to having the procedure at all. He said that normally
they'd just do it, but it seemed like I was the kind of mom who would
be willing to try something else, first, and yet be sure to return if
the alternative didn't work. Huh? Turns out that lots of people don't
come back, or come back soon enough, so they don't risk it by trying
the less-invasive possibilities first - just go to the surgical
procedure right away.

I've sat in the lab waiting area a million times listening to parents
tell their kid to sit still and let the lab tech do what she needs to
do. I actually had a lab tech tell me my daughter could NOT sit on my
lap while getting blood drawn - but she backed down when I insisted.

So - one other thing I wanted to say about this... extreme medical
situations don't make particular good examples - because they are
unusual - so they don't serve us well as the basis for making more
general parenting choices.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jul 1, 2006, at 8:06 PM, Trudy wrote:

> That's exactly how we operate around here, and I'm truly at a loss as
> to why you would assume otherwise.

I didn't assume anything about you, Trudy.

You didn't give enough information for anybody to know anything about
how you handled it, anyway.

NONE of what I said was intended to be about you, personally. It was
all just spin-off from your post - maybe it'll be useful to someone
else, since you're already doing the things I mentioned.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jul 1, 2006, at 8:06 PM, Trudy wrote:

> I have to admit, it's really weird to think that you must believe
> that we aren't our kids' most staunch allies, their biggest
> cheerleaders. Why would you insinuate that?

Why are you reading general statements as if they're about you,
yourself?

I purpose made my statements nonpersonal - talked about what often
happens - that doesn't at all mean I think it happens in YOUR family
or even among your friends. I have no idea what happens in your
family or among your friends - how would I?

-pam



Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 1, 2006, at 11:06 PM, Trudy wrote:

> I have to admit, it's really weird to think that you must believe
> that we aren't our kids' most staunch allies, their biggest
> cheerleaders. Why would you insinuate that?

Why would you present a list of hypothetical questions and then
assume the answers are judgments about you?

That's not a sarcastic question. It's a real question to ponder. You
don't need to come back and tell us.

All answers are about principles and ideas, not judgment about what
someone is or isn't doing. Real examples help the people answering
translate those principles into what they'd look like in practice. We
need to know background and why a choice seemed like a good one at
the time to give a useful translation of the principles.

It really really helps in reading to divorce yourself from your
actions. Discussions about "right" and "wrong" choices (ie, choices
that will move toward a better relationship and choices that will
move away from a better relationship) are not judgments on the worth
of someone. They're judgments on how well a practice or idea will
help someone move towards unschooling and better relationships with
their kids.

We're all works in progress :-) There are always better choices to be
made if we can figure out what they are. We need to form a clear
vision of where we're trying to get. We need to think about the
principles that will help us get there. Then we need to think about
how to apply those principles.

Joyce




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

Pamela Sorooshian wrote:

>
>
> So - one other thing I wanted to say about this... extreme medical
> situations don't make particular good examples - because they are
> unusual - so they don't serve us well as the basis for making more
> general parenting choices.
>



Yes and no. While I completely agree with Pam's examples of how parents
can work as children's advocates rather than as the doctor's advocates,
as so often happens, I don't entirely agree that extreme examples aren't
useful in an unschooling context.

I would say that extreme examples when used to try to prove how
unschooling won't work or where it's limits are definitely can be less
useful than other more common examples. But, and especially, in the
situation where extreme examples are used to illustrate how even in
extreme cases unschooling principles apply, I think extreme examples are
really useful. They let others see how unschooling-adept parents
navigate even extreme and stressful situations with creativity and
compassion that's inspiring, letting us think, perhaps, that if it can
be done in such an extreme case, surely we can do it in our more mundane
situations.

Robyn Coburn, for instance, published an account of her daughter Jayn's
need for dental surgery and how they helped Jayn through the situation
with as much autonomy and empathy as possible. It was published in an
earlier edition of Live Free, Learn Free, which isn't available online,
but could probably be back ordered or borrowed.

--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org

Ren Allen

"His chicken nuggets look the same to him frozen and cooked, so he
becomes upset each time I refuse to give him these to eat directly
from the freezer. I have tried to explain the difference to him, but
it's hard for him to get past his initial frustration at being told
that I can't give it to him raw."

But chicken nuggets are pre-cooked! I've never found any that
weren't...or am I missing something.?? They're not really raw at all.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Betsy Hill

** There are a lot of possibilities in between "it has to be done" and
"let the child choose not to do it at all." If we are committed to
maximum possible respect of the child's wishes, we're more likely to
come up with creative ideas that, at least, make things better for
the child.**

For the car seat example, my infant son hated the car seat, so at that
age I stayed home as much as possible. (I had a hard time
concentrating with a wailing child in the backseat.) After that,
whenever my husband was driving, I sat in the backseat with my child
to interact with him. I did this for a few years until he didn't seem
to particularly need it. Also, since we parked our car on the street
then, when he was very little I would carry the carseat into the house
so that it wouldn't get very hot or very cold.


When he was about 3 or 3.5 he disliked the carseat hugely again. (And
I think I was still sitting next to him.) At this age he could tell
us more about what he didn't like. We went to Toys R Us and picked
out a new car seat, with some ventilation on the back and sides. (I
think it was summer at the time.) (Our first carseat was a handmedown
from a relative, so a second carseat didn't seem extravagant.)
On the toothbrushing issue: I would put a sheet over my head and act
like dying bacteria while my husband did the toothbrushing, or my son
did it himself. He was kind of a bloodthirsty child at that age and
really enjoyed the dying bacteria act. :-)

Betsy

Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Actually, the examples were mostly true. My son prefers his food
frozen and unheated. I do give him waffles and French fries this way. His
chicken nuggets look the same to him frozen and cooked, so he becomes upset
each time I refuse to give him these to eat directly from the freezer. I
have tried to explain the difference to him, but it's hard for him to get
past his initial frustration at being told that I can't give it to him raw.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Can you get nuggets that come fully cooked ( I tought they all did- the ones I get are)?



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The problem with the tooth brushing, for example, probably happens when my
son feels he is being interrupted in some play or project, in spite of my
trying to give him some notice and then suggest him into the bathroom as the
family prepares to shut the house down and go to sleep. I don't feel I can
let him stay awake alone for safety reasons and I do think the tooth
brushing is important. As he needs help brushing his teeth, I try to fit
him into a slot for it as I juggle the needs of my other children at that
time of day too. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


My son just turned 4 last week and I can't remenber how old is yours but if my son is playing or watching tv or in the computer and I need to go to bed or get the baby to sleep I give him the tooth brush ( actually 3 or 4 to make him brush longer ) with paste in it right where he is and he does a pretty good job himself. I have been doing that since about when he turned 3. I also go to bed and I tell him if he needs me to come get me or come to bed when he is tired. It has never been a problem. I think he was about 2 and half when I could leave him downstairs byhimself. I did use a monitor just as a safety tool so I could hear him back then. He alsways did great and came to bed when he was ready. NowadayI go up somedays and he comes when he is ready. Sometimes he does it by himself and sometimes I remiind him to brush and pee but that is getting more rare. Sometimes I already have the baby down and I come to the computer and he will come get me and tell me that he needs to go to bed. We co-seelp and I still nurse him a few seconds before he turns to seelp so I go up with him and we sleep. He also has told me he did not want to brush sometimes and that is ok. He will gladly brush really well in the morning. So no power strugles. Of course we did not get to this point without having to work mainly on MY expectations.
But the more I read here the more I am able to work on myself and create a more joyful life for my kids.
Alex

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jul 2, 2006, at 12:06 AM, Valdivieso Family wrote:

> This strikes
> me as a little hypocritical and I worry that they're sure to catch
> on that
> sometimes what they would have themselves do can get overruled by me.

You're worrying that they'll figure that out? THAT is no big secret <G>.

Interesting - I've never really thought that I was hiding that - my
kids see other kids being treated much more disrespectfully all
around them - constantly. They've known from the beginning that we're
trying to do something different.

When we're at the park - they hear parents yelling at their kids,
"Get down off that," or "Don't go up the slide." They know that I
wouldn't do that, that I'd come over and help them be safe, help them
find a way to do what they want in a safe way, etc.

The difference is so clear - the kids have grown up very grateful and
aware of our choices being different than the norm.

So - they know we didn't "have to" do things this way - they know we
have the ultimate authority to control them if we want to do so and
that we choose not to use that ability.

In those extreme cases, when we STILL do our best to support our kids
needs and wants - but we end up feeling the need to say, "Honey, we
have to do this, let's get through it the best we can," then we have
such a different relationship with the kids that it can be done
without losing the basis of that relationship - respect and trust.

Danielle pointed out that extreme cases are interesting and
informative to see how radical unschoolers can find so many ways to
try to support the child, even when it doesn't seem possible. And I
agree with that.

In my experience, there are times, though, that we parents have to
sort of draw on our built-up credit with our kids and ask them to
accept that we have done all we can do and that something has to
happen in spite of them not wanting it to happen. Medical situations
- life and death medical situations - are a possible example. I'm not
saying that we won't work really hard to find ways to accommodate the
child's interests in those cases - but that, if we don't manage to
fully accomplish that, it doesn't mean that doing it ALL the rest of
the time is wasted effort. When I said these extreme examples aren't
useful, what I meant was, the examples in which we end up "drawing on
our trust credit" aren't good examples of how we function the rest of
the time.


-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Trudy

Michelle,

Thanks. I'm sorry to all if I assumed wrongly. Since it was my
response that was quoted and then the answer followed that, I assumed
the response was directly related to my post. I was confused because
I told the story about my son's illness and how we had gotten through
that, and then was told not to use "hypotheticals" and how parents
don't usually care about their kids' feelings while scared, hurt,
etc..

Joyce, I'm unaware of what you're referring to when you say I
shouldn't list "hypothetical questions." I asked a question about
math in another topic, but that's all. It wasn't hypothetical; it was
a genuine question regarding unschooling, I thought. In relation to
this toddler topic, I was answering someone else's questions with an
example of how we handled incidents that involve young ones who may
not understand why something has to be done or decisions made that
they don't want (i.e. illness, safety issues).

I must be confusing people when I type, because in my mind I thought
I explained it, but the later replies seem totally unrelated to what
was said. Sorry if I've been unclear.


Trudy Powell

Melissa

I wanted to say thanks for sharing your stories. I know that some
mama's feel attacked and leave when things get discussed, and at that
point everyone loses out.

I am most interested in what you yourself say about the situation "I
do find situations where *I feel I need* to make the decision for
them, or otherwise I hear myself nagging them" I hear that you still
have a lot of fear, and basically distrust in the common sense of
toddlers. I understand completely, I felt that way when my oldest was
young. I'm so thankful for my big family, because it forces me to let
go of some issues I used to hold dear. When those things slide, I see
that it wasn't as life-threatening as I thought it was. Sam and Dan
started climbing on the monkey bars when they were 18 months old. The
other moms at the park would gasp, sigh, keep eagle eyes on them,
basically ruining their fun and my fun watching them. When I trusted
them, they did as much as they were capable of doing. They had no
overwhelming desire to "prove" themselves and go beyond their
capabilities. They could stop and ask for help. They could choose to
figure it out for themselves. It was scary for me at first, but how
empowering for them for me to stand by, be amazed, and let them see
what their limits were.

In the quote above, I hear you say 'if my kids don't make the choice
I want for them, I will continue to nag them until they do or until I
finally put my foot down and make them do what I want'. There is no
empowerment for a child who knows that unless his choice matches up
with his mother's he has no free will. KWIM?

Case by case, chicken nuggets usually come cooked, here in Oklahoma
there is one brand that is not precooked. If yours don't, why are
they sitting out on the cabinet where he sees them? Could you just
put them directly into the oven from the freezer? Could you microwave
them? Let him try one, and see if he honestly likes it frozen? The
texture and hardness of frozen chicken is completely different that
frozen potatoes or waffles.

On medication, are there alternatives? A single shot instead of a
week of disgusting syrup? Maybe they'd be willing to take pills? Is
it an infection that you could wait and see if it heals on its own?
Most do....within a time frame similar to that on antibiotics. We
have not given antibiotics for ear infections since Bre was a year
old. At that time, she had three months of ear infections, dozens of
bottles of pink amoxycillan, and it never would go away. I drew the
line when the ped said, well, her whole system is messed up from all
those antibiotics, we'll need to put her on probiotics, then onto
another version of the antibiotics. I took her off everything, and
within a week she was infection free for the first time in months. We
found a pediatrician who was groundbreaking on the whole ear
infection thing, and we've never looked back. He's against
antibiotics in most cases, and so when he does suggest something he's
very serious. He's never once told us we needed it for any of the
kids colds or infections. He's always said lets give it four or five
days and see what it's looking like.

Running on uneven concrete is a scary one, granted. But how do you
know he can't do it? How will HE ever know it's dangerous? My two
boys can run like mountain goats over almost any kind of surface,
it's amazing, and Breanna can balance on the backs of folding chairs
and run across those (I know that's weird). The worst that would
happen is what? He'd fall, split his head open and die? Is that
really something that concerns, or is it the more usual damage done
by scrapping knees and bloodying a lip? Not lifelong damage, a
learning moment, and perhaps the one time he needs to fall to know
forever HOW to run on uneven cement. Dan fell Friday at the park on
the climbing rocks. He busted his upper lip all the way across, and
scrapped some skin back from one of his teeth. I was able to pick him
up, look at it, commiserate. He decided that from now on, those rocks
were NOT safe to play on. At two he very carefully climbed back up,
held up a stop sign for some kids we didn't know, and lisped "Those
rocks are very tricky, if you climb be very very careful!"

These things are so overrated. Brushing your teeth doesn't HAVE to
happen three times a day right after meals. Some of my kids like to
brush before breakfast, some not til after. Some wait until it's
nearly lunch. Some do it after lunch, some while watching TV, some
while reading, some brush in the bathtub while pretending to be
mermaids. Sometimes they don't want to brush all day. I might ask
them if they had, if they need help. I might on the older ones say
"Wow, your breath is stinky!" They'll laugh it off, and then when
they feel like it brush again. They don't always need help, if you
let him be, he'll do a good enough job, and you can help him every
other day, or couple times a week. (for the record, my kids have one
cavity among them all...we usually play dentist twice a week, where
we set up in the tv room in front of the tv and I do a superbrush on
whoever wants it, floss, and they get to spit water into the bathroom
trashcan)

There is only one constant that I can see in unschooling, and that is
trust. At any age you must trust that children want what is good and
what is right. We're here to facilitate, and that's what I love....to
be my child's helper like I am my husbands helper. We're all
partners. RIght now while they are young, they don't give back as
much as they take, but I know that as they grow more able and more
capable of seeing need, they will. I already see it when Emily offers
to slice oranges for lunch, or Josh rocks Dan to sleep, or Bre sets
the table while I'm cooking dinner. Dan is totally deschooled, and
you can tell because he's the only two yo I know who takes off his
pullup in the afternoon and says "I feel icky, can you help me take a
bath?" The older ones are still deschooling...too many years of me
hovering and nagging, and the school squealching, but we're doing
better.

I'm so glad you are here, and willing to learn. As I mentioned
before, I'm glad you don't take the discussions personally. When I
first started here, I surely did ;-) But listening and learning has
helped our whole family.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Jul 2, 2006, at 2:06 AM, Valdivieso Family wrote:

>
>
>
> No matter how much I try to empower/recognize my preschool age
> children
> as a general rule, I do find situations where I feel I need to make
> the
> decision for them, or otherwise, I hear myself nagging them. This
> strikes
> me as a little hypocritical and I worry that they're sure to catch
> on that
> sometimes what they would have themselves do can get overruled by
> me. And
> the nagging makes me feel stupid. I am aware that this points to a
> family
> hierarchy which I wish I could balance a little more in their
> favors. I
> find myself trying to represent natural consequences for them so
> that they
> don't have to split their skulls or get sick to learn from their
> mistakes
> (They're still so young). Of course this makes me the bad guy, and
> sets me
> up as the enemy. I admit that in my previous post (in addition to
> attempting
> to hybrid examples to avoid being verbose (like I am now)) I tried to
> represent a range of examples in search of some kind of theoretical
> unschooling maxim or strategy that I might apply in more than a few
> situations like this that seem to come up. I liked the responses
> suggesting
> that I hug and redirect the baby, and the suggestion to control the
> environment rather than the child. I do feel responsible for their
> safety
> at this point in time. I suppose if I had a little more time (I
> have a new
> infant at home, the third baby) I could come up with a creative
> solution for
> each case.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

juillet

(2 cent insert)--I have seen some chicken nuggets that
are uncooked, they're by Health Valley I think... but
I don't know if you can get them everywhere.

__________________________________________________
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Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 2, 2006, at 3:31 PM, Trudy wrote:

> Joyce, I'm unaware of what you're referring to when you say I
> shouldn't list "hypothetical questions."

I assumed you were upset about the answers to the hypotheticals
because the hypotheticals were yours. Yahoo must not have delivered
some email that made some bridge between Carolyn's email and yours.
It isn't important. The ideas are still valid just irrelevant to this
situation. So, basically, never mind.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb

--- In [email protected], "Betsy Hill"
<ecsamhill@...> wrote:

>
>
When he was about 3 or 3.5 he disliked the carseat hugely again.
>(And
> I think I was still sitting next to him.) At this age he could
>tell
> us more about what he didn't like.
Ditto. DS was generally okay about being buckled in his car seat, up
to a point. Then he started fighting it. That was something
different - and "different" reactions to the same thing, especially
in a negative direction, need a step back and evaluation. Turned
out, as with your son, finding a different style of car seat
resolved the situation - he wanted one where he had a wider field of
view, something without the big "wings" on the sides. He also liked
being able to YELL at grown ups if the vehicle started to move and
he wasn't buckled (on the rare occasions where I thought DH buckled
DS and DH thought I buckled DS and neither of us had...)

--Deb

Mara

My ds (1) gets that way too, so now I try to distract
him with something in the other room while I put
things in the oven/pot that he can not have raw, so
that when they are ready he can eat them.
Mara


> "His chicken nuggets look the same to him frozen and
> cooked, so he
> becomes upset each time I refuse to give him these
> to eat directly
> from the freezer. I have tried to explain the
> difference to him, but
> it's hard for him to get past his initial
> frustration at being told
> that I can't give it to him raw."

>
>


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Deb

--- In [email protected], Valdivieso Family
<gvrcdk@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> My son prefers his food
> frozen and unheated. I do give him waffles and French fries this
>way. His
> chicken nuggets look the same to him frozen and cooked, so he
>becomes upset
> each time I refuse to give him these to eat directly from the
>freezer.
Many brands are precooked - not a problem to eat straight from the
freezer. Or, as you note, precook a big batch and then he CAN eat
them straight from the freezer.

> I have felt a
> need to force my children (toddlers) to take un-tasty medication
> (antibiotics) after attempts to make it seem more palatable
>failed, and
> attempts to explain its purpose didn't impress them enough to make
>them take
> it willingly. I hated doing this.
Is it necessary? (most times the prescription is written to appease
a nervous parent, not because the situation requires it - most kid
illnesses run their course in a week with or without antibiotics -
and the antibiotics just cause the 'bugs' to get resistant). When DS
was a toddler, I still used the infant syringe - bypassed the taste
buds almost totally. Now, he's 8 and any medication is served with a
glass of water as a chaser. One biggie, though, is that by and
large, he has a say in when he needs a doctor, when he needs OTC
meds for his comfort (for example, something to soothe a sore
throat), and so on. Since he has a history of choice in this, when I
say "I think you really need to ...", he takes it pretty seriously
because I don't do that all the time. In fact, when he broke his arm
at age 4 (fell awkwardly), *he* told *me* that we had to take him to
the hospital. So we did (lol).

>The running into the street example was
> made up, but I do worry all the time when my son runs on uneven
>concrete (on
> our way to the park, where there is more grass). It really is
>hard for him
> to delay the running until we get to the park, especially because
>he is so
> excited to get there.
Get a good portable first aid kit (I have 3 - one in each vehicle
and one itty bitty one in my purse), brush up on your first aide
procedures, and, something I suggest ALL parents do, learn CPR. You
*cannot* prevent *every* injury, nor do you really want to try. So,
assume you'll need to patch a whole bunch of scuffed knees and
bumped shins and prepare how to handle it.

> The problem with the tooth brushing, for example, probably happens
>when my
> son feels he is being interrupted in some play or project, in
>spite of my
> trying to give him some notice and then suggest him into the
>bathroom as the
> family prepares to shut the house down and go to sleep.
Why not let him brush/brush with him while he's watching the last 5
minutes of the TV show or whatever? It need not happen in the
bathroom ONLY - bring the toothbrush, with toothpaste on it, a small
cup of water to rinse, and a spit cup (and a washcloth until he's
good at spitting).

> As he needs help brushing his teeth, I try to fit
> him into a slot for it as I juggle the needs of my other children
>at that
> time of day too.
How about getting the other two to bed first and then take your time
brushing with him?

--Deb

Crystal

--- In [email protected], Valdivieso Family
<gvrcdk@...> wrote:
>I do worry all the time when my son runs on uneven concrete (on
> our way to the park, where there is more grass). It really is hard
for him
> to delay the running until we get to the park, especially because he
is so
> excited to get there.
>
Hi! This is my first time posting. I've been lurking for quite a
while, but I really wanted to comment on this. My daughter is almost
4, and last summer, she wanted to run everywhere. I am not a runner,
and we have another child who was only six months old last summer, so
we devised a game. We'd say go and she gets to run until we say stop.
Then she stops and waits for us to say go again. She loved it! We
still do it. That way she gets to run, and we keep her out of the
streets. She learned very quickly to wait for an adult and watch for
cars. For the past half year, we even let her walk through parking
lots and across streets without holding hands. We taught her the
safety rules, and trust her to follow them.
As far as bedtime goes, we let her decide when to go to bed. She's
frequently up late watching movies (gets it from me, I'm a night owl,
too.) When she's ready to go to sleep, she turns off the movie and the
lights and goes to sleep. Sometimes I'm still up, sometimes I'm
already in bed. She gets ready for bed when the rest of us do, but
then she stays up until she's ready to sleep. It makes nights a lot
more peaceful than they were when we used to try to force her to bed.

Crystal

Shannon Towler

On 7/2/06 6:59 AM, "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:

> "His chicken nuggets look the same to him frozen and cooked, so he
> becomes upset each time I refuse to give him these to eat directly
> from the freezer. I have tried to explain the difference to him, but
> it's hard for him to get past his initial frustration at being told
> that I can't give it to him raw."
>
>My Toddler loves them frozen, my 6 year old did too. In fact they love to eat
frozen veggies as well. I think it soothes mouth pain from teething for them.

Shannon>
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