Re: Breaking news
Deb Lewis
***I can imagine that if Ren had railed and ranted and punished Jalen
for his *mistake*, he would have become defensive and perhaps even
angry at Sierra, the victim of his mistake.***
This is an important point. If the mom had punished him he might have
felt that his sister got him in trouble. He would know his act of
shoving wasn't malicious but it would seem to him that his sister's act
of getting him into trouble was. It wouldn't have helped his
relationship with his mom or with his sister. It would have created bad
feelings all around.
His sister might have felt satisfied about her brother getting into
trouble. Her actions might have reflected that. It wouldn't help her
brother think clearly about the incident or think of what he might have
done differently, it would have made him feel angry. He might harbor
resentment about his sister and a feeling his mom cared more about her
than she did about him. None of those negative emotions and thoughts
would have contributed to his developing awareness of the value of
careful judgement and compassion.
The mom's actions comforted the injured sister, comforted the scared and
confused brother and set an example to the kids about the healing power
of compassion. They have one more example of a good way to handle a
problem.
***I find it hard to instinctively reward a poor, unkind choice.***
We shouldn't think of compassion as a reward. It's our children's right
to always have our compassion. It's manipulative and damaging to
withhold it.
The mom wasn't rewarding bad behavior, she was loving a child in a moment
when he didn't use the best judgement. Punishment can't make a child
have better judgement. Good judgement comes from seeing others practice
it and from time and experience and guidance. This child received all
those things from his mom.
Deb Lewis
for his *mistake*, he would have become defensive and perhaps even
angry at Sierra, the victim of his mistake.***
This is an important point. If the mom had punished him he might have
felt that his sister got him in trouble. He would know his act of
shoving wasn't malicious but it would seem to him that his sister's act
of getting him into trouble was. It wouldn't have helped his
relationship with his mom or with his sister. It would have created bad
feelings all around.
His sister might have felt satisfied about her brother getting into
trouble. Her actions might have reflected that. It wouldn't help her
brother think clearly about the incident or think of what he might have
done differently, it would have made him feel angry. He might harbor
resentment about his sister and a feeling his mom cared more about her
than she did about him. None of those negative emotions and thoughts
would have contributed to his developing awareness of the value of
careful judgement and compassion.
The mom's actions comforted the injured sister, comforted the scared and
confused brother and set an example to the kids about the healing power
of compassion. They have one more example of a good way to handle a
problem.
***I find it hard to instinctively reward a poor, unkind choice.***
We shouldn't think of compassion as a reward. It's our children's right
to always have our compassion. It's manipulative and damaging to
withhold it.
The mom wasn't rewarding bad behavior, she was loving a child in a moment
when he didn't use the best judgement. Punishment can't make a child
have better judgement. Good judgement comes from seeing others practice
it and from time and experience and guidance. This child received all
those things from his mom.
Deb Lewis
Ren Allen
~My daughter has always had great difficulty controlling
impulses.~
Jalen is like that when he's energetic or hungry/tired...very
difficult time being a bit impulsive. Wrestle time with dh is
something I DREAD, because it gets him so overstimulated. I talk over
and over with the older people in this house about how he is not able
to play exactly the way they're used to. A little bit is fine, but
they have to pay attention to the "I'm getting overstimulated" signals
better!
I really think that's what the push was...an impulse. He realized
right away that it wasn't a good idea and felt badly. His sister
shreaking at the bottom of the stairs really scared him. Scared all of us!
I think trying to see children as trying their best (heck, all humans
as trying their best) enables us to deal with issues with more
clarity. If there IS some underlying anger, it's easier to get at the
root of it if the adult is compassionate, calm and centered.
My energetic little guy just came in and hugged me...typical Jalen
fashion. He checks in with me every so often with a big hug and "Hi
Mom" or "I Loooove you Mom". That's the flip side of an intense
personality. Their just as intensely happy and sweet as they are upset
at times.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
impulses.~
Jalen is like that when he's energetic or hungry/tired...very
difficult time being a bit impulsive. Wrestle time with dh is
something I DREAD, because it gets him so overstimulated. I talk over
and over with the older people in this house about how he is not able
to play exactly the way they're used to. A little bit is fine, but
they have to pay attention to the "I'm getting overstimulated" signals
better!
I really think that's what the push was...an impulse. He realized
right away that it wasn't a good idea and felt badly. His sister
shreaking at the bottom of the stairs really scared him. Scared all of us!
I think trying to see children as trying their best (heck, all humans
as trying their best) enables us to deal with issues with more
clarity. If there IS some underlying anger, it's easier to get at the
root of it if the adult is compassionate, calm and centered.
My energetic little guy just came in and hugged me...typical Jalen
fashion. He checks in with me every so often with a big hug and "Hi
Mom" or "I Loooove you Mom". That's the flip side of an intense
personality. Their just as intensely happy and sweet as they are upset
at times.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Rachell Skerlec
>I really think that's what the push was...an impulse. He realizedright away that it wasn't a good idea and felt badly. His sister
shreaking at the bottom of the stairs really scared him. Scared all of us!
Got it.
>I think trying to see children as trying their best (heck, all humansas trying their best) enables us to deal with issues with more
clarity. If there IS some underlying anger, it's easier to get at the
root of it if the adult is compassionate, calm and centered.
I agree. In fact I have not ben disagreeing with very much around here I
was just curious about the instinct/hug part as it is not a current
"instinct" for me and was not for you from what you said. I read your other
emails and I see now this has been a process for you, too. THAT makes so
much sense for me. I KNOW there are people out there that were raised in
such a way or were born with such a set of genetic predispositions that
makes it EASY for them to react first with a hug. I guess others of us need
to work at attaining that perspective.
>My energetic little guy just came in and hugged me...typical Jalenfashion. He checks in with me every so often with a big hug and "Hi
Mom" or "I Loooove you Mom". That's the flip side of an intense
personality. Their just as intensely happy and sweet as they are upset
at times.:)
I have one just like that. Very passionate. I don't know at all who he
takes after ;)
Rachell
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Rachell Skerlec <panacea@...>
I KNOW there are people out there that were raised in
such a way or were born with such a set of genetic predispositions that
makes it EASY for them to react first with a hug. I guess others of us
need
to work at attaining that perspective.
-=-=-=-
I think *most* of us need to work at this. I think my children, on the
other hand, will have *many* fewer traditional voices in their heads.
It's be soooo easy for them to be gentle parents. Less baggage, better
modeling. I see it already.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fe
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
From: Rachell Skerlec <panacea@...>
I KNOW there are people out there that were raised in
such a way or were born with such a set of genetic predispositions that
makes it EASY for them to react first with a hug. I guess others of us
need
to work at attaining that perspective.
-=-=-=-
I think *most* of us need to work at this. I think my children, on the
other hand, will have *many* fewer traditional voices in their heads.
It's be soooo easy for them to be gentle parents. Less baggage, better
modeling. I see it already.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fe
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Ren Allen
~I read your other emails and I see now this has been a process for
you, too. THAT makes so much sense for me. I KNOW there are people out
there that were raised in such a way or were born with such a set of
genetic predispositions that makes it EASY for them to react first
with a hug. I guess others of us need to work at attaining that
perspective.~
Absolutely!!
This has been a HUGE journey for me....baby steps sometimes, and other
times giant leaps. I really didn't want to spank any of my children
from day one, but those old tapes (and lack of life experience, I was
20 when Trevor was born) controlled me more than I would have liked. I
took after my Mum and yelled a lot too. Major yuck.
I took the parenting classes to help us be more positive, I worked SO
hard at it, but damn it if the same behaviors would surface when I was
pissed. It wasn't until I started to really change how I viewed my
children that the changes could really settle in.
To see them as trying their best, as truly wonderful human beings that
just needed guidance in the moment really helped me grasp onto new tools.
It was a change in how I chose to see them.
We can all choose that at any moment. It's that simple, and that
complex.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
you, too. THAT makes so much sense for me. I KNOW there are people out
there that were raised in such a way or were born with such a set of
genetic predispositions that makes it EASY for them to react first
with a hug. I guess others of us need to work at attaining that
perspective.~
Absolutely!!
This has been a HUGE journey for me....baby steps sometimes, and other
times giant leaps. I really didn't want to spank any of my children
from day one, but those old tapes (and lack of life experience, I was
20 when Trevor was born) controlled me more than I would have liked. I
took after my Mum and yelled a lot too. Major yuck.
I took the parenting classes to help us be more positive, I worked SO
hard at it, but damn it if the same behaviors would surface when I was
pissed. It wasn't until I started to really change how I viewed my
children that the changes could really settle in.
To see them as trying their best, as truly wonderful human beings that
just needed guidance in the moment really helped me grasp onto new tools.
It was a change in how I chose to see them.
We can all choose that at any moment. It's that simple, and that
complex.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Tina
<but damn it if the same behaviors would surface when I was
pissed.>
You hit my "trouble" spot right on the head! That is where I am
stuck. I get SO frustrated at myself. I need the tools implanted in
my brain. What's the best way to get a transplant? :-)
Tina
pissed.>
You hit my "trouble" spot right on the head! That is where I am
stuck. I get SO frustrated at myself. I need the tools implanted in
my brain. What's the best way to get a transplant? :-)
Tina
Ren Allen
"but Ren, I WANTED the info. I came here to listen and learn and now
ya lost me, dear. "
But you really didn't want the info. that much. You came here out of
curiosity, sure. But you didn't come WANTING to become an unschooler,
WANTING to learn about how to implement it in your home.
That's perfectly OK! You're happy with the way things are in your
life. Cool.
But this list is designed to help people that WANT to become
unschoolers. Not for any other purpose. It would be wasting a lot of
folks time (who signed up for exactly that reason) to not focus the
list on it's purpose.
In real life, I have friends from all walks of life and our
differences are not an issue. But at this list, we are here for a very
distinct purpose and so we discuss things differently than if we were
just hanging out in real life. I would never assume my
friends/aquaintances WANT any information about unschooling unless
they ask (so don't worry, if we hang out I won't bring it
up...honest!). Here at this list, it's assumed you truly WANT to learn
how to unschool.
It's ok for people to stop by out of curiosity of course. But those
that get the most out of this style of list are those that want to
implement change.
Nobody is pinning anyone down and making them read here. Adults have
the choice to join a list or start their own if one doesn't satisfy
their needs. The list is what it is. Nobody has to read here if they
don't like it. But almost 1,000 people are here to talk about
unschooling, so that's what we do.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
ya lost me, dear. "
But you really didn't want the info. that much. You came here out of
curiosity, sure. But you didn't come WANTING to become an unschooler,
WANTING to learn about how to implement it in your home.
That's perfectly OK! You're happy with the way things are in your
life. Cool.
But this list is designed to help people that WANT to become
unschoolers. Not for any other purpose. It would be wasting a lot of
folks time (who signed up for exactly that reason) to not focus the
list on it's purpose.
In real life, I have friends from all walks of life and our
differences are not an issue. But at this list, we are here for a very
distinct purpose and so we discuss things differently than if we were
just hanging out in real life. I would never assume my
friends/aquaintances WANT any information about unschooling unless
they ask (so don't worry, if we hang out I won't bring it
up...honest!). Here at this list, it's assumed you truly WANT to learn
how to unschool.
It's ok for people to stop by out of curiosity of course. But those
that get the most out of this style of list are those that want to
implement change.
Nobody is pinning anyone down and making them read here. Adults have
the choice to join a list or start their own if one doesn't satisfy
their needs. The list is what it is. Nobody has to read here if they
don't like it. But almost 1,000 people are here to talk about
unschooling, so that's what we do.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Rachell Skerlec
>I think *most* of us need to work at this. I think my children, on theother hand, will have *many* fewer traditional voices in their heads.
It's be soooo easy for them to be gentle parents. Less baggage, better
modeling. I see it already.
I agree with this totally. Through my efforts, I already see it in my kids
as well, even though I have never stepped foot in a peaceful
parenting/unschooling arena until now.
Imagine what I could accomplish if I felt welcomed enough to participate
with you here and learn more from everyone's experience here..
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristin's Natural Childcare
I admit to being a bit of a lurker, out of fear of being bashed so
please take it easy on me.
The bottom line, perceived or not, is that if you're not in the 'elite'
group you will never be good enough. Following the last similar
disagreement on the always unschooled list, we were directed here for
the 'basics' however, it's the same elite group here, as it was there,
running off perfectly honest and truthful people who just want to make
these changes in their worlds. We are not all in the same situation,
our homes and home lives are different. We have lots of kids, we have
one child, we have husbands/wives, we're single. We are not all
'Ren/Kelly/Pam/Danielle' etc. and if we have a question about how
others would deal with a particular issue, the real underlying issue is
that we are asking HOW OTHERS WOULD DEAL not what is the only correct
way to deal with it, and if we don't do it that way, then we're wrong,
we're unacceptable as parents and we should go back to the world of
beating, demeaning, punishing, 'forcibly excluding' our children and
send them to boarding school. Why can there not be a happy medium where
this is a LEARNING experience and those who are 'newbies' be accepted
into the group and their questions welcomed, instead of bashed and
demeaned.isn't that exactly what we are trying to get away from? There
are some days when I delete all the new messages from this group because
the negativity is just too much, and makes me irritable. It's
unfortunate, because some of the people here have a lot to say that is
good and positive and I've learned and changed a lot since joining. I
just wish that the 'elitest' crowd would lay off a bit and be nicer to
us who are learning. Otherwise, how will we learn and grow???
Kristin Suter
Kristin's Natural Childcare
"Supporting your family's natural lifestyle"
www.kristinsnaturalchildcare.com
women.tools.knowledge
pass it on
www.suburbantomboy.com
"but Ren, I WANTED the info. I came here to listen and learn and now
ya lost me, dear. "
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
please take it easy on me.
The bottom line, perceived or not, is that if you're not in the 'elite'
group you will never be good enough. Following the last similar
disagreement on the always unschooled list, we were directed here for
the 'basics' however, it's the same elite group here, as it was there,
running off perfectly honest and truthful people who just want to make
these changes in their worlds. We are not all in the same situation,
our homes and home lives are different. We have lots of kids, we have
one child, we have husbands/wives, we're single. We are not all
'Ren/Kelly/Pam/Danielle' etc. and if we have a question about how
others would deal with a particular issue, the real underlying issue is
that we are asking HOW OTHERS WOULD DEAL not what is the only correct
way to deal with it, and if we don't do it that way, then we're wrong,
we're unacceptable as parents and we should go back to the world of
beating, demeaning, punishing, 'forcibly excluding' our children and
send them to boarding school. Why can there not be a happy medium where
this is a LEARNING experience and those who are 'newbies' be accepted
into the group and their questions welcomed, instead of bashed and
demeaned.isn't that exactly what we are trying to get away from? There
are some days when I delete all the new messages from this group because
the negativity is just too much, and makes me irritable. It's
unfortunate, because some of the people here have a lot to say that is
good and positive and I've learned and changed a lot since joining. I
just wish that the 'elitest' crowd would lay off a bit and be nicer to
us who are learning. Otherwise, how will we learn and grow???
Kristin Suter
Kristin's Natural Childcare
"Supporting your family's natural lifestyle"
www.kristinsnaturalchildcare.com
women.tools.knowledge
pass it on
www.suburbantomboy.com
"but Ren, I WANTED the info. I came here to listen and learn and now
ya lost me, dear. "
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rachell Skerlec
>But this list is designed to help people that WANT to becomeunschoolers. Not for any other purpose.
Gotcha!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~you have no idea. Engaging in this negative banter on this board
will cost me a few good days in and of itself because I should be able
to just be better than all this tit for tat.~
It's only negative banter if you choose to make it such. People can
only go on the words you post. Nobody is assuming anything. Everyone
is responding to what is actually being written.
I've usually found that if something ruffles my feathers and makes me
defensive, it's because I'm on shaky ground and need to examine the thing.
When I'm comfortable and very deeply convinced of something, I don't
feel defensive when somebody questions it. Some of my ruffled feather
moments have given way to much growth.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
will cost me a few good days in and of itself because I should be able
to just be better than all this tit for tat.~
It's only negative banter if you choose to make it such. People can
only go on the words you post. Nobody is assuming anything. Everyone
is responding to what is actually being written.
I've usually found that if something ruffles my feathers and makes me
defensive, it's because I'm on shaky ground and need to examine the thing.
When I'm comfortable and very deeply convinced of something, I don't
feel defensive when somebody questions it. Some of my ruffled feather
moments have given way to much growth.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Rachell Skerlec
>Absolutely!!This has been a HUGE journey for me....baby steps sometimes, and other
times giant leaps. I really didn't want to spank any of my children
from day one, but those old tapes (and lack of life experience, I was
20 when Trevor was born) controlled me more than I would have liked. I
took after my Mum and yelled a lot too. Major yuck.
this makes perfect sense. What did not make perfect sense to me from the
original story you shared was why you would expect yourself to react with a
response that was different from your instinctive response. Like how could
you expect your instinctive reaction to be any different than what your
instinct is? I see now it is about behavior modification and perspective.
>but damn it if the same behaviors would surface when I waspissed. It wasn't until I started to really change how I viewed my
children that the changes could really settle in.
To see them as trying their best, as truly wonderful human beings that
just needed guidance in the moment really helped me grasp onto new tools.
It was a change in how I chose to see them.
We can all choose that at any moment.
I like this idea and I will try my best to see how possible this is to keep
in mind when one of those situations arises.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristin's Natural Childcare
OR.as it seems.a list for people who wish to be SCHOOLED in how to
comply with the ideas and practices of an elite few
Gotcha!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
comply with the ideas and practices of an elite few
>But this list is designed to help people that WANT to becomeunschoolers. Not for any other purpose.
Gotcha!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandy Deby
Hi,
Wow I cant keep up with all these amazing emails.
I am unschooling three of my children this year my 15 year old and my 13 year old and my 8 year old. All just coming out of combination of Waldorf 2years for the 8 and 15 year old and the 13 year old"labelled autistic child has always been public)
My youngest and 4ht child has only gone to Waldorf Kindergarten and loved it and is asking to try one year of grade one to see how she likes it. She is very clear of things she likes about Waldorf and the things she doesn't, and I feel much the same and we talk about it.
Since opening to unschooling now and feeling that this is the direction I am being lead and oddly enough I think its the way of the future for a healthy planet.
I find myself trying to talk her out of it and saying well how do you think your going to feel with all of your siblings are staying home? She says well I don't know I just want to try it for a year. She also happens to be very close to some of the girls there that are actually daughters of my friends.
They all support me in my choice and are like me in there views of things they don't like about Waldorf. Actually alot of them came to my home wanting to know more about unschooling and I suggested Rens Book.
For someone who is new to this oddly enough there seems to be interest of knowing more coming my way and I seem to know what to say naturally for I know my inner being has always known this is the most natural thing in the world.
I am also humbled to see how much programming I have for a woman who has always considered her self a free spirit and system buster my whole life.
Why do I still have doubts , I'm kind of Lazy and a little self absorbed about my Own journey and I guess when the kids were in school I could focus on ME ME ME. Sounds a little narscistic I know yet, often the case of people who do not have any of there own chooldhood needs met.
Sibling rivalary is still an hard one for me, as unschooler there are more opportinties for conflict now, which I like to avoid due to my own stuff.
I know in my heart that with unschooling there is a part of me that relizes that this also healing me and taking me to what Ive alwasy aspired to living a Joyful and Creative Free life, directed by spirit trustung in the moment.
I appreciate any feedback Please.................Love Sandy
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
"but Ren, I WANTED the info. I came here to listen and learn and now
ya lost me, dear. "
But you really didn't want the info. that much. You came here out of
curiosity, sure. But you didn't come WANTING to become an unschooler,
WANTING to learn about how to implement it in your home.
That's perfectly OK! You're happy with the way things are in your
life. Cool.
But this list is designed to help people that WANT to become
unschoolers. Not for any other purpose. It would be wasting a lot of
folks time (who signed up for exactly that reason) to not focus the
list on it's purpose.
In real life, I have friends from all walks of life and our
differences are not an issue. But at this list, we are here for a very
distinct purpose and so we discuss things differently than if we were
just hanging out in real life. I would never assume my
friends/aquaintances WANT any information about unschooling unless
they ask (so don't worry, if we hang out I won't bring it
up...honest!). Here at this list, it's assumed you truly WANT to learn
how to unschool.
It's ok for people to stop by out of curiosity of course. But those
that get the most out of this style of list are those that want to
implement change.
Nobody is pinning anyone down and making them read here. Adults have
the choice to join a list or start their own if one doesn't satisfy
their needs. The list is what it is. Nobody has to read here if they
don't like it. But almost 1,000 people are here to talk about
unschooling, so that's what we do.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
Now you can have a huge leap forward in email: get the new Yahoo! Mail.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wow I cant keep up with all these amazing emails.
I am unschooling three of my children this year my 15 year old and my 13 year old and my 8 year old. All just coming out of combination of Waldorf 2years for the 8 and 15 year old and the 13 year old"labelled autistic child has always been public)
My youngest and 4ht child has only gone to Waldorf Kindergarten and loved it and is asking to try one year of grade one to see how she likes it. She is very clear of things she likes about Waldorf and the things she doesn't, and I feel much the same and we talk about it.
Since opening to unschooling now and feeling that this is the direction I am being lead and oddly enough I think its the way of the future for a healthy planet.
I find myself trying to talk her out of it and saying well how do you think your going to feel with all of your siblings are staying home? She says well I don't know I just want to try it for a year. She also happens to be very close to some of the girls there that are actually daughters of my friends.
They all support me in my choice and are like me in there views of things they don't like about Waldorf. Actually alot of them came to my home wanting to know more about unschooling and I suggested Rens Book.
For someone who is new to this oddly enough there seems to be interest of knowing more coming my way and I seem to know what to say naturally for I know my inner being has always known this is the most natural thing in the world.
I am also humbled to see how much programming I have for a woman who has always considered her self a free spirit and system buster my whole life.
Why do I still have doubts , I'm kind of Lazy and a little self absorbed about my Own journey and I guess when the kids were in school I could focus on ME ME ME. Sounds a little narscistic I know yet, often the case of people who do not have any of there own chooldhood needs met.
Sibling rivalary is still an hard one for me, as unschooler there are more opportinties for conflict now, which I like to avoid due to my own stuff.
I know in my heart that with unschooling there is a part of me that relizes that this also healing me and taking me to what Ive alwasy aspired to living a Joyful and Creative Free life, directed by spirit trustung in the moment.
I appreciate any feedback Please.................Love Sandy
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
"but Ren, I WANTED the info. I came here to listen and learn and now
ya lost me, dear. "
But you really didn't want the info. that much. You came here out of
curiosity, sure. But you didn't come WANTING to become an unschooler,
WANTING to learn about how to implement it in your home.
That's perfectly OK! You're happy with the way things are in your
life. Cool.
But this list is designed to help people that WANT to become
unschoolers. Not for any other purpose. It would be wasting a lot of
folks time (who signed up for exactly that reason) to not focus the
list on it's purpose.
In real life, I have friends from all walks of life and our
differences are not an issue. But at this list, we are here for a very
distinct purpose and so we discuss things differently than if we were
just hanging out in real life. I would never assume my
friends/aquaintances WANT any information about unschooling unless
they ask (so don't worry, if we hang out I won't bring it
up...honest!). Here at this list, it's assumed you truly WANT to learn
how to unschool.
It's ok for people to stop by out of curiosity of course. But those
that get the most out of this style of list are those that want to
implement change.
Nobody is pinning anyone down and making them read here. Adults have
the choice to join a list or start their own if one doesn't satisfy
their needs. The list is what it is. Nobody has to read here if they
don't like it. But almost 1,000 people are here to talk about
unschooling, so that's what we do.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
Now you can have a huge leap forward in email: get the new Yahoo! Mail.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
--- In [email protected], "Rachell Skerlec"
<panacea@...> wrote:
~Marji
<panacea@...> wrote:
>Rachell, it looks to me like you really *are* participating! :-)
>
> Imagine what I could accomplish if I felt welcomed enough to
> participate with you here and learn more from everyone's
> experience here..
~Marji
Rachell Skerlec
You are so right, Ren. I *am* on shakey ground about something I ought to
re-examine and aim for growth on: I don't find it honorable to argue
"points" and yet here I am participating in it. For me, it is better to
kind than to be right and I do not feel I am making the most kind choices
right now so I am disappointed in myself for that.
I guess I will drop all other comments, points, explanations, etc. and say
one last thing which I offer out of kindness. thank you to those that were
helpful and supportive. Thank you to those of you I may have felt
condescended to or judged by as you did take the time to type to me about
these things and I did garner some good ideas inbetwixt your mistaken
negative assumptions of me, my kids, my home, etc.
I wish you and yours all the best because I admire those trying hard to
accomplish good things, things inline with their hearts, :-)
~Rachell
"So shines a good deed in a weary world."
<http://en.thinkexist.com/quotes/william_shakespeare/> William Shakespeare
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Breaking news
~you have no idea. Engaging in this negative banter on this board
will cost me a few good days in and of itself because I should be able
to just be better than all this tit for tat.~
It's only negative banter if you choose to make it such. People can
only go on the words you post. Nobody is assuming anything. Everyone
is responding to what is actually being written.
I've usually found that if something ruffles my feathers and makes me
defensive, it's because I'm on shaky ground and need to examine the thing.
When I'm comfortable and very deeply convinced of something, I don't
feel defensive when somebody questions it. Some of my ruffled feather
moments have given way to much growth.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
re-examine and aim for growth on: I don't find it honorable to argue
"points" and yet here I am participating in it. For me, it is better to
kind than to be right and I do not feel I am making the most kind choices
right now so I am disappointed in myself for that.
I guess I will drop all other comments, points, explanations, etc. and say
one last thing which I offer out of kindness. thank you to those that were
helpful and supportive. Thank you to those of you I may have felt
condescended to or judged by as you did take the time to type to me about
these things and I did garner some good ideas inbetwixt your mistaken
negative assumptions of me, my kids, my home, etc.
I wish you and yours all the best because I admire those trying hard to
accomplish good things, things inline with their hearts, :-)
~Rachell
"So shines a good deed in a weary world."
<http://en.thinkexist.com/quotes/william_shakespeare/> William Shakespeare
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Breaking news
~you have no idea. Engaging in this negative banter on this board
will cost me a few good days in and of itself because I should be able
to just be better than all this tit for tat.~
It's only negative banter if you choose to make it such. People can
only go on the words you post. Nobody is assuming anything. Everyone
is responding to what is actually being written.
I've usually found that if something ruffles my feathers and makes me
defensive, it's because I'm on shaky ground and need to examine the thing.
When I'm comfortable and very deeply convinced of something, I don't
feel defensive when somebody questions it. Some of my ruffled feather
moments have given way to much growth.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~I wish you and yours all the best because I admire those trying hard to
accomplish good things, things inline with their hearts, :-)~
That was very kind. Thank you.:)
And I DO hope you stick around for a while, just for the heck of it!
Unschoolers tend to be pretty passionate people, I think you'd make a
great unschooler! lol
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
accomplish good things, things inline with their hearts, :-)~
That was very kind. Thank you.:)
And I DO hope you stick around for a while, just for the heck of it!
Unschoolers tend to be pretty passionate people, I think you'd make a
great unschooler! lol
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~Rachell, it looks to me like you really *are* participating! :-)~
Yeah, a whole bunch!;)
Ren, who is participating too much also and needs to go have tea with
Sierra now.....
learninginfreedom.com
Yeah, a whole bunch!;)
Ren, who is participating too much also and needs to go have tea with
Sierra now.....
learninginfreedom.com
mooosey3
Sorry for the double post. I posted last night and then my post
didn't go up this morning, so I went back and posted again. I thought
maybe I wasn't welcome anymore from all the "elitists" here. ;) LOL
I really don't think anyone is being elite or snarky here. I am
reading all of these posts as if these incredible moms are talking in
a lively discussion with all of you. When I read these posts I don't
feel a harsh, mean or elitist tone. I hear experience, truth and
wisdom. If you hear a harsh tone...maybe it is because you are
defensive right now.
Personally...I am really trying to move into total unschooling. By
reading here I get so many examples and principles I can use in my own
life. You DO need a thick skin to unschool. You DO need confidence.
Both I can admit I'm lacking! But I am trying... :) I have
discovered for unschooling to truly work it has to start first with
*ME*. Shifts in my perspective and how I handle situations is a
start. Like the beautiful example that Ren gave of hugging your child
first. It takes away from the anger or stress at that moment. It is
so much better for the child and for the parent. I feel so much
better when I am not angry or stressed. Doesn't anyone?? It's the
philosophy of stepping back, taking a deep breath, focusing and
handling the moment better. By making that one moment *good* we are
most likely to make the next moment *better*.
Heather
didn't go up this morning, so I went back and posted again. I thought
maybe I wasn't welcome anymore from all the "elitists" here. ;) LOL
I really don't think anyone is being elite or snarky here. I am
reading all of these posts as if these incredible moms are talking in
a lively discussion with all of you. When I read these posts I don't
feel a harsh, mean or elitist tone. I hear experience, truth and
wisdom. If you hear a harsh tone...maybe it is because you are
defensive right now.
Personally...I am really trying to move into total unschooling. By
reading here I get so many examples and principles I can use in my own
life. You DO need a thick skin to unschool. You DO need confidence.
Both I can admit I'm lacking! But I am trying... :) I have
discovered for unschooling to truly work it has to start first with
*ME*. Shifts in my perspective and how I handle situations is a
start. Like the beautiful example that Ren gave of hugging your child
first. It takes away from the anger or stress at that moment. It is
so much better for the child and for the parent. I feel so much
better when I am not angry or stressed. Doesn't anyone?? It's the
philosophy of stepping back, taking a deep breath, focusing and
handling the moment better. By making that one moment *good* we are
most likely to make the next moment *better*.
Heather
Elissa Jill Cleaveland
Like the beautiful example that Ren gave of hugging your child
first. It takes away from the anger or stress at that moment
*****Yes.
I think of it as a way to reconnect, to tune into each other.
It's a moment when everyone involved can say to themselves and each other, "Ahhh, I am loved and safe and I'll know that in my soul as we work this out."
Making that connections between souls FIRST, enables us to speak from a place of Love (oneness) rather than a place of Difference.
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
first. It takes away from the anger or stress at that moment
*****Yes.
I think of it as a way to reconnect, to tune into each other.
It's a moment when everyone involved can say to themselves and each other, "Ahhh, I am loved and safe and I'll know that in my soul as we work this out."
Making that connections between souls FIRST, enables us to speak from a place of Love (oneness) rather than a place of Difference.
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tina Layne
>>I admit to being a bit of a lurker, out of fear of being bashed soplease take it easy on me.
The bottom line, perceived or not, is that if you're not in the 'elite'
group you will never be good enough. Following the last similar
disagreement on the always unschooled list, we were directed here for
the 'basics' however, it's the same elite group here, as it was there,
running off perfectly honest and truthful people who just want to make
these changes in their worlds. <<
Hi Kristin,
I was on that list, I saw that disagreement and the direction to come here. I was already a member here, too, at the time. I left that particular list soon after that- I didn't feel like wading through the disagreements- I didn't think I'd get as much out of the group... it seemed a well settled, tight-knit group and it was difficult for more than a few of us to "fit in". I figured it would easier going over here and so stayed here. But as you say, many of the same folks are here too! And here we are with the same arguements as over there...
I didn't want to be bashed; I wasn't sure that my opinions weren't just held by *me*, and I didn't want to rock an already unsteady boat so I've lurked. But, having seen your response it is obvious that is is more than just me feeling awkward or less than accepted, and I want to share with everyone my feelings as I tried to explain them to someone else privately.
*****
From day one of parenting (oldest dd is 15 next week), me and dh have tried to live the life of gentle parenting and helping the kids be their best. It took a about 5 years to completely break out of the mold our parents taught us. But we accomplished it- no swats or spanks, no forced "clean plate club", no forcing an apology (although we do remind the kids of that option if they feel inclined to) and just about everything else you've questioned.
We don't even have bedtimes! The kids figured it out on their own when was good to go to bed, without more than a gentle reminder of "You have school tomorrow and have to be up at 5am".
I still need work on judging what is a mistake, and what is intentional at times. (the incident with Ren's son for instance). I still have a short fuse and have to work really hard at holding it in. I'm passionate- I used to splurt loudly and then I could discuss after. This has taken the longest for me to "get over", and I still do it more often than I wish.
Admittedly, I still don't educationally unschool. We use computer games and some workbooks. We use craft books and reading books. We do a lot of hands-on math. My son has a few learning differences- the biggest being severe dyslexia which effects reading, spelling, and math. A lot of schoolwork has to be modified for his needs. We do a "child-led" curriculum. I feel I need to help him out while he does his own thing. I believe as another poster said that my son will never find the joy of reading on his own because of his problems.. it is a trial, a chore, something very hard for him. I don't force it on him or shove it down his throat, but I do introduce it often to him and with the help of curriculum tools if necessary.
My dd/13 will be homeschooled this year and she asked for curriculum. I would be told by this and other groups to "deschool" her. Let her "veg out" and she won't want the curriculum. But at the same time we are told to "trust our kids", and I truly feel this is what she wants- not what she thinks she needs, or what she thinks I want her to have, or what she has been brainwashed to need. She has interests that without a book she's not going to get- such as algebra.
I saw a post on another list.. or maybe it was this list.. that a parent was basically told to "talk dd out of" going back to public school... this coming right after a post to trust our kids wants and needs. Educationally speaking, a lot of times unschooling is confusing and I feel words and directives- advice- can be bent to match whatever keeps a kid out of public school or doing "schooly" work.
Not that I like PS, don't get me wrong! I'd keep all 3 home if they wanted it! My oldest dd/15 has chosen to stay in PS.
I still run into issues and regress to "traditional" methods, (yelling, the blame game) so I'm not perfect, and I am still running into new things as the kids grown older and throw new experiences at me.
I mention all this to show that a lot of time unschooling seems so black and white- either you radically unschool (which is good) or you traditionally parent (which is bad). A lot of times it is pushed as "do or die". I personally don't think that is the case. You can live a certain amount of unschooled life and still hold onto certain aspects of other parenting styles and not be bad or good, right or wrong. You guys like to use the vegetarian analogy- a meat eater doesn't go to a veggie list and say "eat meat!" and not expect to be questioned. I'd also say that there are different vegetarians... some eat dairy, some don't. It doesn't make either one better. They're striving for basically the same thing but taking slightly different paths. I'm sure either group of vegetarians would be very incensed to be told by the other that they weren't as good because they didn't see eye to eye on all issues even though they basically were comrades.
A LOT of good parents gentle-parent but don't radically unschool, and I defy anyone to say that because they are radical unschoolers that it makes them better parents than good "traditional parents" (traditional in the sense that they respect their kids, gently parent, but send their kids to school or school-at-home).
I'm not new to the basic principles of unschooling, and not really new to the radical ideas of educational unschooling. For years I've investigated, read, talked to other unschoolers, been on various lists, have personal unschooling and radical unschooling friends, did unschooling things before I even realized there was a label for it!, etc etc. DH and I have really soul-searched and discussed with each other what is best for our family. We chose to "unschool lite"- not be radicals but definitely follow the gentle and peaceful parenting methods to our best ability. We provide a partnership with our kids, trust them to make good decisions, gently guide them to better opportunities or choices based on experience, not our personal biases, and parent with respect instead of fear tactics like punishment, retrubition, disapproval, etc. We fail sometimes, we apologize, we learn.
However, I am fairly new to the list- within the last month or so- with THIS email account. I've been here quite a while under different accounts in the past before getting my yahoo account.
I find many of my comments or questions either go unnoticed and unanswered, or I am told to take my thoughts off-list because they "don't fit" here. Recently this dealt with foods and medical issues, certainly not something like "spanking is a great method", which obviously doesn't fall into gentle parenting and WE DO NOT DO, lest anyone assume because I used the example that I also advocate it or live by it.
There are certain folks who have been living this style and have been on the lists a long time.. They are the major contributors to posting, and I feel they believe they have the position- the right- to give advice, to critique or criticise, to offend "for your betterment", and to choose who is and isn't okay to post, and what is and isn't acceptable to say in the post. They feel it appropriate to tell people "don't post", "take it elsewhere", "find another list".
I'll get flamed I am sure, but in the not so distant past other folks were told "find another waterfountain", "take your seat elsewhere (like the back of the bus)". It was thought be appropriate or acceptable to do that because they were different. The couldn't be equals or as smart or capable or involved or as viable a part of society because of their race. Here, on these lists, it's about who is smarter , more experienced, or "gets it" based on how long you've been on the list. The rest of us poor saps aren't as smart or capable or involved, or as viable a part of parenting because of our new-ness. If you don't already meet that certain standard based upon a few people's decision, then it's very hard to be taken seriously, or be answered in a fair balanced way instead of being picked apart.
And I am soooo tired of being told defensiveness or feelings of "not fitting in" are based on my problems and I should look inward. Could it just be that there really is a problem with something other than me or Rachel, or Kristin, or anyone else? That there is an elitist "I'm better than you" feel that turns people off?
It is assumed that if you are new to the list that you are automatically new to anything other than traditional parenting and so therefore automatically the newbie is already low on the totem pole, less than a person or parent and the group thinks they are better.
So, just wanted to say to Rachel and Kristin, don't feel left out or take it too personally. I find this list to often be elitist even if they choose to say it is "confidence". Most unschooling sites are, and many of them have the same folks from this list. I've left a majority of the lists because they weren't so much helping as just picking apart other people's feelings and concerns/questions. I like the groups when they discuss new tactics without attacking. Unfortunately, these types of topics and nitpicky responses tend to monopolize the list and very little of the "good stuf" gets through.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
Somehow or another, I wish we radical unschoolers could manage to
find a way to get it across to people that we are not assuming
anything about their own families when we respond to their questions
by comparing the non-punitive parenting style we've adopted to
conventional parenting.
Lots of really wonderful parents engage in conventional parenting
techniques and their kids are great and grow up great.
Lots of kids go to school and do fine and they are great kids and
grow up great. (Although I'm more and more thinking that nobody
escapes conventional schooling entirely undamaged by it.)
Some of my best friends with wonderful families whom I love dearly
are far more conventional in their parenting than I am. It is okay
with me - I'm not on a mission to change them. I think they are fine.
But if they came to a radical unschooling list and asked questions -
I would have to answer by saying, "No, we don't punish and here is
why we think it is unnecessarily and not a good idea." Would they
feel that THEIR choices were being criticized? I'm sure they would -
how could they not?
But, truth is, if I go to a list that supports my friends' choices
and ask questions, I'm going to hear about how "not" to be overly
permissive and a lot of my parenting choices are going to be
criticized. For example, I was on a list for discussing "Positive
Discipline" and most of the posts were about different systems -
giving coupons for good behavior that get the kid out of doing dishes
for an evening, giving points throughout the week that could earn
different little toys at the end of each week, having "penny jars"
for the kids and giving them a penny each time the mom catches them
doing something good. There is a great deal of discussion on those
kinds of lists about overly-permissive parents who don't discipline
their children enough and about how kids really need parents to set
boundaries for them and to consistently follow-through by punishing
(or by withholding rewards - which IS a punishment) so the kids will
learn. My ideas are not welcome there and I could easily go there and
get my feelings hurt and feel that they are attacking my family,
personally. But, truth is, they don't know my family and they just
don't believe that our kind of non-punitive parenting can work, so
they assume my kids must be out of control.
They DO think their way is better, for sure. I think they're wrong -
I think they aren't seeing the potential for problems that they are
creating. If they want to know what I think, I'm here and willing to
talk. If they don't ask - then it isn't my business to force my ideas
on them.
-pam
find a way to get it across to people that we are not assuming
anything about their own families when we respond to their questions
by comparing the non-punitive parenting style we've adopted to
conventional parenting.
Lots of really wonderful parents engage in conventional parenting
techniques and their kids are great and grow up great.
Lots of kids go to school and do fine and they are great kids and
grow up great. (Although I'm more and more thinking that nobody
escapes conventional schooling entirely undamaged by it.)
Some of my best friends with wonderful families whom I love dearly
are far more conventional in their parenting than I am. It is okay
with me - I'm not on a mission to change them. I think they are fine.
But if they came to a radical unschooling list and asked questions -
I would have to answer by saying, "No, we don't punish and here is
why we think it is unnecessarily and not a good idea." Would they
feel that THEIR choices were being criticized? I'm sure they would -
how could they not?
But, truth is, if I go to a list that supports my friends' choices
and ask questions, I'm going to hear about how "not" to be overly
permissive and a lot of my parenting choices are going to be
criticized. For example, I was on a list for discussing "Positive
Discipline" and most of the posts were about different systems -
giving coupons for good behavior that get the kid out of doing dishes
for an evening, giving points throughout the week that could earn
different little toys at the end of each week, having "penny jars"
for the kids and giving them a penny each time the mom catches them
doing something good. There is a great deal of discussion on those
kinds of lists about overly-permissive parents who don't discipline
their children enough and about how kids really need parents to set
boundaries for them and to consistently follow-through by punishing
(or by withholding rewards - which IS a punishment) so the kids will
learn. My ideas are not welcome there and I could easily go there and
get my feelings hurt and feel that they are attacking my family,
personally. But, truth is, they don't know my family and they just
don't believe that our kind of non-punitive parenting can work, so
they assume my kids must be out of control.
They DO think their way is better, for sure. I think they're wrong -
I think they aren't seeing the potential for problems that they are
creating. If they want to know what I think, I'm here and willing to
talk. If they don't ask - then it isn't my business to force my ideas
on them.
-pam
On Jun 30, 2006, at 10:41 AM, mooosey3 wrote:
> I really don't think anyone is being elite or snarky here. I am
> reading all of these posts as if these incredible moms are talking in
> a lively discussion with all of you. When I read these posts I don't
> feel a harsh, mean or elitist tone. I hear experience, truth and
> wisdom. If you hear a harsh tone...maybe it is because you are
> defensive right now.
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
> OR.as it seems.a list for people who wish to be SCHOOLED in how toSomebody here is giving assignments, testing retention of material,
> comply with the ideas and practices of an elite few
giving grades?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Trudy
What I found so hypocritical - I guess you would say - about these
discussions and the elite attitudes that often come through is the
insinuation that "If you're not doing it this way, you're not doing
it right and you're not an unschooler." Isn't this in direct
opposition to what unschooling is supposed to espouse?
This list is not a place to make a mistake, admit it, pick yourself
up, get a hug, dust yourself off, get a hug, try again, get a hug -
this is a place where if you're not doing it (attempting to unschool,
learn, etc.) a certain way, then you're WRONG and you're going to be
told about it in no uncertain terms. It's ironic that what is done
to those trying to learn on this list is in direct opposition to what
the hard-core unschoolers SAY they do at home. Makes one wonder what
is truly practiced. Although I hate to see it, at least now I know
it wasn't just me who was being getting this treatment - many of you
give out this same type of answers to anyone who questions or even
dares to slightly disagree and stand their ground.
Don't get me wrong. Not all the e-mails have the edge to them. If
someone is gushing about how great the advice is or how enlightened
someone else is, then they get all the smiles, hugs, praise, etc.
That must be nice for them.
I must say, it's interesting if nothing else.
Trudy Powell
discussions and the elite attitudes that often come through is the
insinuation that "If you're not doing it this way, you're not doing
it right and you're not an unschooler." Isn't this in direct
opposition to what unschooling is supposed to espouse?
This list is not a place to make a mistake, admit it, pick yourself
up, get a hug, dust yourself off, get a hug, try again, get a hug -
this is a place where if you're not doing it (attempting to unschool,
learn, etc.) a certain way, then you're WRONG and you're going to be
told about it in no uncertain terms. It's ironic that what is done
to those trying to learn on this list is in direct opposition to what
the hard-core unschoolers SAY they do at home. Makes one wonder what
is truly practiced. Although I hate to see it, at least now I know
it wasn't just me who was being getting this treatment - many of you
give out this same type of answers to anyone who questions or even
dares to slightly disagree and stand their ground.
Don't get me wrong. Not all the e-mails have the edge to them. If
someone is gushing about how great the advice is or how enlightened
someone else is, then they get all the smiles, hugs, praise, etc.
That must be nice for them.
I must say, it's interesting if nothing else.
Trudy Powell
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 30, 2006, at 11:16 AM, Tina Layne wrote:
find another list.
Your generalizing about "certain folks" is indicative of what's
happening, I think, that is contributing the feelings you're having.
You're lumping people together.
I am an individual and I speak for myself, not for a group.
As an individual, I give advice and critique or criticize (ideas, not
people). I have never claimed I "offended for your betterment" and I
don't choose who is and isn't okay to post, what is or isn't
acceptable to say in the post.
I dare you to find one single time where I have told people what to
say or not say or who should post or who shouldn't - on this list.
I usually overlook the complaining, because there doesn't seem to be
anything to be done about it and because I try not to take it
personally.
But I'm running on fumes these days - my house almost burned down and
we're living in rental housing into our 4th month of trying to get
repairs going on it - dealing with the city code enforcement and
insurance companies and contractors. I was in a car accident 2 weeks
ago - rear-ended by a large truck, so I'm dealing with that,
including some minor injuries. My 21 year old daughter is moving out
- happily and joyfully - but I miss her already. I'm part of running
a large conference in August - dealing with speakers and books and
all kinds of details. I'm working more in my regular job (teaching
college) because we're paying rent PLUS our mortgage PLUS over a
thousand dollars a month to store all our furniture and belongings
and the money is going out faster than it is coming in and the
insurance company covered only the first 3 months.
We are individuals and we have individual lives. As much as I respect
Joyce and Kelly and Ren and Deb and others here, I don't want either
credit or blame for anything they may say or do. And I certainly
don't want THEM to take the heat for anything I say or do. (They can
have the credit, I don't care about that.)
Please, stop thinking of us as some sort of elite group - because WE
aren't that. I learn a lot from reading what others here say about
their experiences and ideas and I am here both to help others and get
help myself. We're a bunch of moms, living our own lives, and we're
here AS individuals who are offering, free of charge, to let others
have a bit of benefit from our experience and ideas IF they want it.
We do it because OUR lives were changed for the better this same way
- by other parents who gave of their time and energy to offer us
advice, critique, and discussion. If you don't want it - I don't
really care: don't listen, don't think about it, don't try it out,
and don't obstruct the list from being the source of inspiration,
help, stimulation that it is for those of us who DO appreciate it.
Nobody is compelled to be here. It isn't paid for out of your tax
dollars - it is a privately-owned list offered by people who get
absolutely NOTHING in return except the satisfaction of sometimes
hearing that they've made a positive difference in the lives of
children. That's it. Please stop acting like they owe you something
- they don't.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> There are certain folks who have been living this style and haveI've never once told anybody here not to post or take it elsewhere or
> been on the lists a long time.. They are the major contributors to
> posting, and I feel they believe they have the position- the right-
> to give advice, to critique or criticise, to offend "for your
> betterment", and to choose who is and isn't okay to post, and what
> is and isn't acceptable to say in the post. They feel it
> appropriate to tell people "don't post", "take it elsewhere", "find
> another list".
find another list.
Your generalizing about "certain folks" is indicative of what's
happening, I think, that is contributing the feelings you're having.
You're lumping people together.
I am an individual and I speak for myself, not for a group.
As an individual, I give advice and critique or criticize (ideas, not
people). I have never claimed I "offended for your betterment" and I
don't choose who is and isn't okay to post, what is or isn't
acceptable to say in the post.
I dare you to find one single time where I have told people what to
say or not say or who should post or who shouldn't - on this list.
I usually overlook the complaining, because there doesn't seem to be
anything to be done about it and because I try not to take it
personally.
But I'm running on fumes these days - my house almost burned down and
we're living in rental housing into our 4th month of trying to get
repairs going on it - dealing with the city code enforcement and
insurance companies and contractors. I was in a car accident 2 weeks
ago - rear-ended by a large truck, so I'm dealing with that,
including some minor injuries. My 21 year old daughter is moving out
- happily and joyfully - but I miss her already. I'm part of running
a large conference in August - dealing with speakers and books and
all kinds of details. I'm working more in my regular job (teaching
college) because we're paying rent PLUS our mortgage PLUS over a
thousand dollars a month to store all our furniture and belongings
and the money is going out faster than it is coming in and the
insurance company covered only the first 3 months.
We are individuals and we have individual lives. As much as I respect
Joyce and Kelly and Ren and Deb and others here, I don't want either
credit or blame for anything they may say or do. And I certainly
don't want THEM to take the heat for anything I say or do. (They can
have the credit, I don't care about that.)
Please, stop thinking of us as some sort of elite group - because WE
aren't that. I learn a lot from reading what others here say about
their experiences and ideas and I am here both to help others and get
help myself. We're a bunch of moms, living our own lives, and we're
here AS individuals who are offering, free of charge, to let others
have a bit of benefit from our experience and ideas IF they want it.
We do it because OUR lives were changed for the better this same way
- by other parents who gave of their time and energy to offer us
advice, critique, and discussion. If you don't want it - I don't
really care: don't listen, don't think about it, don't try it out,
and don't obstruct the list from being the source of inspiration,
help, stimulation that it is for those of us who DO appreciate it.
Nobody is compelled to be here. It isn't paid for out of your tax
dollars - it is a privately-owned list offered by people who get
absolutely NOTHING in return except the satisfaction of sometimes
hearing that they've made a positive difference in the lives of
children. That's it. Please stop acting like they owe you something
- they don't.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 30, 2006, at 11:39 AM, Trudy wrote:
I yelled at my daughter the other day. YELLED at her. I was really
upset - and I'm completely on overload with too much stress. My sweet
daughter is moving out - and here I am yelling at her? I felt awful.
SHE felt awful. It was about nothing - I can't even remember what
started it. I think I'd asked her to take something upstairs and she
hadn't and I'd griped at her and she'd snapped at me and I fell apart.
I have no problem with admitting this here. We ALL screw up. We all
know we all screw up. I fully expect that I will now hear from a slew
of people who will say, "Don't worry, pick yourself up, dust
yourself, try again - here's a hug." I know they'll be thinking it,
even if they don't post it.
But - hearing about my screw-up doesn't help anybody unschool. Better
to hear about how Ren hugged her sweet little boy when he undoubtedly
felt HORRIBLE after pushing his sister. That's the kind of
inspiration I need.
If I came onto this list and said, "I yelled at my daughter and she
deserved it and I think it was the right thing to do," THEN I'd
expect to be told I was WRONG and I'd expect to be told why.
I wouldn't mind hearing more about how people keep their cool when
under tremendous stress, over time, though - that would be helpful!
And I won't take it personally - won't assume people are attacking ME
for not handling my own stress perfectly well.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> This list is not a place to make a mistake, admit it, pick yourselfSO not true.
> up, get a hug, dust yourself off, get a hug, try again, get a hug -
> this is a place where if you're not doing it (attempting to unschool,
> learn, etc.) a certain way, then you're WRONG and you're going to be
> told about it in no uncertain terms.
I yelled at my daughter the other day. YELLED at her. I was really
upset - and I'm completely on overload with too much stress. My sweet
daughter is moving out - and here I am yelling at her? I felt awful.
SHE felt awful. It was about nothing - I can't even remember what
started it. I think I'd asked her to take something upstairs and she
hadn't and I'd griped at her and she'd snapped at me and I fell apart.
I have no problem with admitting this here. We ALL screw up. We all
know we all screw up. I fully expect that I will now hear from a slew
of people who will say, "Don't worry, pick yourself up, dust
yourself, try again - here's a hug." I know they'll be thinking it,
even if they don't post it.
But - hearing about my screw-up doesn't help anybody unschool. Better
to hear about how Ren hugged her sweet little boy when he undoubtedly
felt HORRIBLE after pushing his sister. That's the kind of
inspiration I need.
If I came onto this list and said, "I yelled at my daughter and she
deserved it and I think it was the right thing to do," THEN I'd
expect to be told I was WRONG and I'd expect to be told why.
I wouldn't mind hearing more about how people keep their cool when
under tremendous stress, over time, though - that would be helpful!
And I won't take it personally - won't assume people are attacking ME
for not handling my own stress perfectly well.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
I wouldn't mind hearing more about how people keep their cool when
under tremendous stress, over time, though - that would be helpful!
And I won't take it personally - won't assume people are attacking ME
for not handling my own stress perfectly well.
-=-=-=-=-
I have a wee bit of stress here this weekend! <BWG>
But I can honestly look at *your* last few months and play Pollyana,
Pam! <g>
Thanks for the reality check.
Deep breaths.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
I wouldn't mind hearing more about how people keep their cool when
under tremendous stress, over time, though - that would be helpful!
And I won't take it personally - won't assume people are attacking ME
for not handling my own stress perfectly well.
-=-=-=-=-
I have a wee bit of stress here this weekend! <BWG>
But I can honestly look at *your* last few months and play Pollyana,
Pam! <g>
Thanks for the reality check.
Deep breaths.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Kristin's Natural Childcare
{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}
I'm so sorry to hear all that.I certainly hope things take an upturn
soon! Positive thoughts coming your way!!
<< But I'm running on fumes these days - my house almost burned down and
we're living in rental housing into our 4th month of trying to get
repairs going on it - dealing with the city code enforcement and
insurance companies and contractors. I was in a car accident 2 weeks
ago - rear-ended by a large truck, so I'm dealing with that,
including some minor injuries. My 21 year old daughter is moving out
- happily and joyfully - but I miss her already. I'm part of running
a large conference in August - dealing with speakers and books and
all kinds of details. I'm working more in my regular job (teaching
college) because we're paying rent PLUS our mortgage PLUS over a
thousand dollars a month to store all our furniture and belongings
and the money is going out faster than it is coming in and the
insurance company covered only the first 3 months.>>
Kristin Suter
Kristin's Natural Childcare
"Supporting your family's natural lifestyle"
www.kristinsnaturalchildcare.com
women.tools.knowledge
pass it on
www.suburbantomboy.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm so sorry to hear all that.I certainly hope things take an upturn
soon! Positive thoughts coming your way!!
<< But I'm running on fumes these days - my house almost burned down and
we're living in rental housing into our 4th month of trying to get
repairs going on it - dealing with the city code enforcement and
insurance companies and contractors. I was in a car accident 2 weeks
ago - rear-ended by a large truck, so I'm dealing with that,
including some minor injuries. My 21 year old daughter is moving out
- happily and joyfully - but I miss her already. I'm part of running
a large conference in August - dealing with speakers and books and
all kinds of details. I'm working more in my regular job (teaching
college) because we're paying rent PLUS our mortgage PLUS over a
thousand dollars a month to store all our furniture and belongings
and the money is going out faster than it is coming in and the
insurance company covered only the first 3 months.>>
Kristin Suter
Kristin's Natural Childcare
"Supporting your family's natural lifestyle"
www.kristinsnaturalchildcare.com
women.tools.knowledge
pass it on
www.suburbantomboy.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mooosey3
I yelled at my daughter the other day. YELLED at her. I was really
upset - and I'm completely on overload with too much stress. My sweet
daughter is moving out - and here I am yelling at her? I felt awful.
SHE felt awful. It was about nothing - I can't even remember what
started it. I think I'd asked her to take something upstairs and she
hadn't and I'd griped at her and she'd snapped at me and I fell apart.
I yelled at my ds the other day. I'm not proud of it. Ren mentioned
in a post WAY back on this thread (I'm having a tough time keeping
up...) and a couple others did too that they have had stressful moments
and have handled it in a way they probably shouldn't have. I see
everyone sharing experiences here. Don't we grow from our mistakes??
But - hearing about my screw-up doesn't help anybody unschool. Better
to hear about how Ren hugged her sweet little boy when he undoubtedly
felt HORRIBLE after pushing his sister. That's the kind of
inspiration I need.
Me too!!
I wouldn't mind hearing more about how people keep their cool when
under tremendous stress, over time, though - that would be helpful!
And I won't take it personally - won't assume people are attacking ME
for not handling my own stress perfectly well.
This is PERFECT timing for me. Maybe we need a stress thread going!!
I just got back from a chiropractor appt. I have been having problems
with my neck. Well he said my muscles were so stressed today and that
I was progressing slower than he thought I should. So he told me I need
to work on my stress, work on some excercises so I can progress. I did
get an awesome water massage today because of it... lucky me!! :) I
wish I could handle my stress and don't understand why I even have so
much of it. I really shouldn't have anything to stress about my life
is pretty good. I have some stress with some family relationships that
could be the under lying cause of my inner stress, I don't know. I wish
I had the answer so I could solve it. I swung by an herbal supplement
store on my way home and got a stress vitamin supplement and I'm
thinking I need to sign up again for yoga.
Heather
www.myeclectic.blogspot.com <http://www.myeclectic.blogspot.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
upset - and I'm completely on overload with too much stress. My sweet
daughter is moving out - and here I am yelling at her? I felt awful.
SHE felt awful. It was about nothing - I can't even remember what
started it. I think I'd asked her to take something upstairs and she
hadn't and I'd griped at her and she'd snapped at me and I fell apart.
I yelled at my ds the other day. I'm not proud of it. Ren mentioned
in a post WAY back on this thread (I'm having a tough time keeping
up...) and a couple others did too that they have had stressful moments
and have handled it in a way they probably shouldn't have. I see
everyone sharing experiences here. Don't we grow from our mistakes??
But - hearing about my screw-up doesn't help anybody unschool. Better
to hear about how Ren hugged her sweet little boy when he undoubtedly
felt HORRIBLE after pushing his sister. That's the kind of
inspiration I need.
Me too!!
I wouldn't mind hearing more about how people keep their cool when
under tremendous stress, over time, though - that would be helpful!
And I won't take it personally - won't assume people are attacking ME
for not handling my own stress perfectly well.
This is PERFECT timing for me. Maybe we need a stress thread going!!
I just got back from a chiropractor appt. I have been having problems
with my neck. Well he said my muscles were so stressed today and that
I was progressing slower than he thought I should. So he told me I need
to work on my stress, work on some excercises so I can progress. I did
get an awesome water massage today because of it... lucky me!! :) I
wish I could handle my stress and don't understand why I even have so
much of it. I really shouldn't have anything to stress about my life
is pretty good. I have some stress with some family relationships that
could be the under lying cause of my inner stress, I don't know. I wish
I had the answer so I could solve it. I swung by an herbal supplement
store on my way home and got a stress vitamin supplement and I'm
thinking I need to sign up again for yoga.
Heather
www.myeclectic.blogspot.com <http://www.myeclectic.blogspot.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jun 30, 2006, at 1:45 PM, mooosey3 wrote:
these alternative parenting ideas into our lives, I suppose. And a
chance to dig deep and practice consciously choosing our reactions to
things that happen throughout the day.
AND - a huge challenge for me has been not to totally focus on the
stressful events and to keep living happily and enjoying life, while
dealing with all the details that I have to deal with.
But - it is certainly a whole lot easier to be an unschooler during
stressful times than to have all these things going on and be trying
to school the kids, at the same time.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Maybe we need a stress thread going!!Stressful times are really a test of how deeply we've incorporated
these alternative parenting ideas into our lives, I suppose. And a
chance to dig deep and practice consciously choosing our reactions to
things that happen throughout the day.
AND - a huge challenge for me has been not to totally focus on the
stressful events and to keep living happily and enjoying life, while
dealing with all the details that I have to deal with.
But - it is certainly a whole lot easier to be an unschooler during
stressful times than to have all these things going on and be trying
to school the kids, at the same time.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]